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嘿。
Hey.
我是《纽约时报烹饪》的沃恩·布雷兰德。
It's Vaughn Breland from New York Times Cooking.
烘焙季节到了。
Baking season is here.
几乎任何蛋糕都可以做成单碗蛋糕。
Almost any cake can be turned into a one bowl cake.
没有什么比刚烤好的牛角面包更让我着迷的了。
There's nothing better than a freshly baked croissant for my oven.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我可以
I could
吃掉五十亿个这样的。
eat 5,000,000,000 of these.
那是一块布朗尼蛋糕。
That is a brownie.
别害怕。
Don't be afraid.
这个食谱非常宽容，不容易失败。
This is so forgiving.
这些是豪华曲奇饼干。
These are deluxe cookies.
在《纽约时报烹饪》上，我们应有尽有。
At New York Times Cooking, we've got it all.
我们提供各种烘焙技巧、食谱和视频，无论你想做什么都行。
We've got tips, recipes, videos for whatever you wanna bake.
所以快来 nytcoking.com 和我们一起烘焙吧。
So come bake with us at nytcooking.com.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是安娜。
It's Anna.
好的。
Alright.
在节目开始前，我想聊聊情人节，因为在这里的《现代爱情》栏目，我们已经提前开始考虑了。
Before we start the show, I wanna talk about Valentine's Day because, of course, we are already thinking about it over here at Modern Love.
我们希望你能帮我们一下。
We're hoping you can help us out.
我们想了解，曾经发生在你身上最浪漫的事是什么。
We wanna know the most romantic thing that's ever happened to you.
或者，如果没有发生在你身上，那你见过或见证过的最浪漫的事是什么。
Or if it didn't happen to you, the most romantic thing you've ever seen or witnessed.
这可能是某种宏大的举动，像浪漫喜剧里的场景。
It could be something grand, a rom com style gesture.
也许有人抱着音响站在你窗外，或者在机场奔跑着阻止你离开。
Maybe someone stood outside your window with a boombox or ran through the airport to stop you from leaving.
或者它可能是一件小事，比如有人知道你讨厌橄榄，所以总是在你开吃前把它们从你盘子里挑出来。
Or it could be something small, like someone knows you hate olives, so they always pick them off your plate before you dig in.
或者有人每天早上在你的午餐盒里塞一张纸条，提醒你你对他们有多重要。
Or someone slips a note in your lunchbox every morning to remind you how much you mean to them.
无论是什么样的时刻——无论是宏大的瞬间还是微小的细节——让你感受到了浪漫的悸动，我们都想听你讲述，也想知道它为什么对你来说如此浪漫。
Whatever made you feel that rush of romance from the big moments to the tiny ones, we wanna hear about it, and we wanna know why it was so romantic to you.
如果你有这样一个故事，请录一段语音备忘录，发送至 modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com，截止日期为2月4日，我们可能会在节目中使用你的故事。
If you have a story in mind, record a voice memo and email it to us at modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com by February 4, and we might use your story on the show.
邮箱是 modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com。
That's modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com.
再次提醒，你的截止日期是2月4日。
And once again, your deadline is February 4.
非常感谢。
Thanks so much.
我们迫不及待想听到你的故事。
We can't wait to hear from you.
现在带来今天的节目。
Now here's today's episode.
爱现在，上一次我爱上你的时候。
Love now and You fall in love last time I love.
爱比任何事物都更强大。
Love is stronger than anything.
为了爱。
For the love.
爱。
Love.
我比任何事物都更爱你。
And I love you more than anything.
爱。
Love.
爱依然存在。
There's still love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是现代爱情。
This is modern love.
你可能记得不久之前，我们邀请过作家萨姆·格雷厄姆·费尔西特做客节目。
So you might remember a while back, we had the writer Sam Graham Felsit on the show.
他跟我们讲述了自己在意识到成年后感到孤独后，如何努力重新建立与生活中其他男性的旧友谊。
He told us all about trying to rekindle his old friendships with other men in his life after he realized that as an adult, he felt pretty lonely.
那场对话充满了温情与脆弱，对男性气质的反思也出人意料，因此当我看到萨姆新发表的一篇文章，全在讲如何让他的儿子变得坚强时，我确实有点惊讶。
That conversation was so full of tenderness and vulnerability and such a surprising reflection on masculinity that, honestly, I was a little surprised when I saw a new article from Sam pop up all about trying to make his son tough.
我当时想：坚强？
I was like, tough?
坚强？
Tough?
真的吗？
Really?
这听起来太传统男性化了。
That sounds so traditionally masculine.
我没想到这会出自萨姆之口，我真的很想知道这对他意味着什么。
I didn't expect it coming from Sam, and I really wanted to know what it meant to him.
所以今天，萨姆回来了，告诉我们当他带着八岁的儿子进行一次横跨全国的公路旅行、过上艰苦生活时发生了什么。
So today, Sam is back to tell us what happened when he took his eight year old son on a cross country road trip to live a strenuous life.
为什么坚毅对一个儿子来说如此重要，以及他的儿子反过来教会了他什么。
Why toughness felt like such an important thing for a son to learn and what his son taught him in return.
萨姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森，欢迎再次做客《现代爱情》。
Sam Graham Felsen, welcome back to Modern Love.
回来真的很开心。
It's really fun to be back.
萨姆，上次你来节目时，你写了一篇关于男性之间友谊的重磅《纽约时报杂志》文章。
Sam, the last time we had you on the show, you'd written this big New York Times Magazine story about friendship between men.
你现在又为杂志写了一篇文章。
Now you've written another piece for the magazine.
顺便提一下，你妻子是这本杂志的编辑。
And just to note, your wife is an editor at the magazine.
这篇文章名为《我试图让我的儿子变得坚强》。
The story is called I tried to toughen up my son.
事情并没有按计划进行。
Things didn't go as planned.
有笑声。
There's a laughter.
这笑声背后有很多故事。
There's a lot behind that laugh.
我们会讲讲发生了什么。
We'll get into what happened.
但首先，我想知道为什么？
But first, I wanna know why?
你为什么觉得你的儿子需要变得坚强？
Why did you think your son needed to be tough?
我儿子真的让我想起了我小时候的样子。
So my son really reminds me of what I was like as a kid.
我很敏感。
I was sensitive.
我有热情的兴趣爱好。
I had passionate interests.
我想你可以称这为书呆子气。
I guess you could call that nerdy.
和我儿子不同的是，我那时极度渴望变得酷，于是强迫自己花上百万小时在后院练习投篮，只为把篮球打好。
Unlike my son, I was so desperate to be cool that I forced myself to get good at basketball by spending a million hours, you know, shooting layups in my backyard.
我儿子对运动毫无兴趣。
My son has no interest in sports.
事实上，他非常讨厌运动。
In fact, he hates sports so much.
这很有趣。
This is funny.
前几天，他画了一把射线枪，还说这叫‘运动枪’。
The other day, he, like, drew a picture of, like, a ray gun, and he was like, this is called the sports gun.
这是一种特殊的激光枪，能把宇宙中所有的球都射掉。
It's a special kind of, like, laser gun that that will shoot all the balls in the universe.
所以我再也不用打球了。
So I'll never have to play sports.
嗯，
Well,
这太有创意了。
that is genius.
这幅画里的射线枪能把宇宙中所有的球都射掉。
The ray gun in this picture shoots the balls in the universe.
它们就消失了。
They disappear.
是的。
Yeah.
当这把射线枪被使用时，他想做什么？
What does he wanna do when the ray gun is used?
他希望在课间休息时，不再被迫去踢足球、打篮球或做其他任何运动，而是能做他那些想象中的角色扮演类游戏，或者他平时喜欢做的事。
He wants to instead of at recess being pressured to play soccer or basketball or whatever, he wants to, you know, do his imaginary LARPing type games or whatever he does.
但没错，他想沉浸在自己的想象世界里。
But, yeah, he wants to be in his world of imagination.
他希望翻动木头，看看下面有什么昆虫。
He wants to, you know, turn over logs and see what insects are underneath them.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我记得我带他去参加过一个生日派对。
I I mean, I remember when I took him to a birthday party.
那个派对恰好在一个室内篮球馆外面举行。
It happened to be out of, like, this indoor basketball facility.
其他孩子都打得特别投入，而我儿子从来没打过篮球。
And the other kids were, like, sick at basketball, and, like, my son had never played basketball.
所以，如果你在听这个，儿子，我希望这不会让你难堪。
So he's like, you know, if you're listening to this, son, I hope this doesn't embarrass you.
但他当时就像，你知道的，运球时方向都搞反了，诸如此类的事情。
But he was, like, you know, dribbling the wrong way down the court, that kind of stuff.
根本不知道发生了什么。
Like, just didn't even know what was going on.
我意识到，你之前问我关于坚韧的问题，而我现在却在聊运动。
And I realized it's like, you asked me about about toughness, and now I'm just talking about sports.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
它们是不同的，完全是两回事。
And and they are different they are different things.
但我觉得这其中的联系在于，至少在我还是个男孩的时候，男孩们都会有这种感觉。
And but but I think the way in which it's connected is it comes from the feeling that for boys, at least when I was a boy.
对吧？
Right?
如果你不擅长运动，那就完蛋了。
If you're not good at sports, it's kind of a wrap.
你根本不会受欢迎。
Like, you you you you you're not gonna be cool.
你交不到朋友。
You're not gonna make friends.
这挺有意思的。
It's funny.
当我回想起过去，我依然记得那个总是最后一个被选中的人。
Like, when I think back, I still remember the kid who got picked last.
我不是在乎我儿子会不会打大学篮球，当然不在乎。
It's not like like, do I give a crap about, like, whether or not my son's gonna play college basketball or like, of course not.
我在乎的是，我不希望他被人欺负、被嘲笑，或者被群体排斥。
What I give a crap about is that, like, I just don't want him to be somebody who gets bullied or even made fun of or just excluded from the group.
如果他想参加戏剧、自然活动，或者任何科学相关的事情——他热爱科学，那太好了。
And if he wants to do theater and nature stuff and whatever science stuff, he loves science, like, great.
但那时我有了一个想法。
But I then had the thought.
我希望他至少能培养一些坚韧和抗压能力，因为如果他因为与众不同、没有其他男孩那种兴趣而被欺负的话。
I'm like, I want him to at least develop some toughness and resilience because if he gets picked on for being different, for not having the bro interest that all the other bros have
是的。
Yeah.
比如在生日派对上，他不会玩任何运动，你也可以做到。
For being the kid at the birthday party that doesn't know how to play sports, you can do that.
但我认为，实现这一点的关键是，你必须拥有非常坚定的自信心。
But I think, like, the way to pull that off is, like, you have to have a really solid sense of confidence.
你必须有坚定的信念：如果有人想欺负我，我会站出来为自己辩护，然后说，是的。
You have to have a solid sense of, like, if someone tries to push me around, like, I'm gonna stand up for myself and be like, yeah.
我就是不一样，滚开。
I'm different, and fuck off.
我给他报了跆拳道班。
Like, I enrolled him in a karate school.
刚开始练跆拳道的时候，简直就像舞蹈课。
And when you're first starting out in karate, it's basically like dance class.
你就是连续做二十个不同的动作。
Like, you're just doing, like, 20 different movements in a row.
所以你只是在反复练习这些动作。
And so you're just practicing the movements.
对吧？
Right?
等到拿到橙带时，才是第一次要面对一些可怕的事情。
And once you get to orange belt, it's the first time where you have to do something scary.
对吧？
Right?
一旦你拿到橙带，就得买一大堆新装备。
Once you have orange belt, you have to buy all this new equipment.
你会得到这些护具。
You get these pads.
你会得到脚部护具。
You get foot pads.
你还会得到头盔，因为你开始和其他孩子对打。
You get all you get a helmet because you start fighting other kids.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但他根本做不到。
But, like, he he couldn't do it.
他害怕和其他孩子打斗。
Like, he was afraid of fight other kids.
他害怕被击中，但也害怕击打别人。
He was afraid of getting hit, but he was also afraid of hitting.
对他来说，这简直是一种折磨。
And it just like, it was misery for him.
在某些方面，这甚至比打篮球还糟糕，他就是觉得，我不行，我真的不行。
It was even worse than playing basketball in some ways, and he was just like, I'm not I'm not.
我确实努力鼓励他。
And I and I really tried to encourage him.
我对他说，听好了。
I'm like, listen.
你穿着护具呢。
There's pads on.
你根本不可能受伤。
There's no way you're gonna get hurt.
你也不可能伤到别人，但他就是做不到。
There's no way you're gonna hurt someone else, but, like, he just couldn't do it.
所以，在我花了大概几百美元买这些护具之后，他第二天就退出了。
So, like, after I dropped, like, hundreds of dollars on these pads, he dropped out, like, the next day.
不过确实。
But yeah.
他去上课了吗？
Did he go to class?
比如，你们当时是在一个对练的课上，而他做不到吗？还是你有类似的记忆？
Like, was there a were you at a class where they were sparring and he just couldn't do it, or was it is there a memory you have of something like that?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，他当时就想立刻退出，而我一直在坚持让他回去。
I mean, he wanted to quit right away, and I and I kept I kept pushing to go back.
但他只是站在那里不动。
But he would just kinda stand there.
另一个孩子会
Another kid would be
那另一个孩子呢？
And the other kid?
是的，就是这样。
Like, yeah.
总会有一个别的孩子一直在打、打、打，而他只是站在那里，直到教练说：好了。
There would be, like, another kid just, like, punching, punching, punching, and he would just kinda stand there until the sensei was like, alright.
另一个家伙赢了。
The other guy won.
我可能还在场边喊过，我会说：伙计，你也得主动进攻啊。
And I probably even, like, said from the sidelines, I'd be like, dude, you gotta go on the offensive too.
你不能光站在那里挨打。
You can't just stand there, like, getting hit.
这是这项运动的规则。
You do have that's the sport.
你得还击。
You have to hit back.
你得保护自己。
You have to defend yourself.
这有点对。
It's sort of yeah.
然后他就只是轻轻打一下，像那种敷衍的触碰，接着又站回原地一动不动。
And then he would just do, like, a very tepid kind of, like, tap type thing and go back to just standing there frozen.
他真的不想出拳或踢腿。
Like, he really didn't want to punch or kick.
在空手道里你也可以踢腿。
You could also kick in karate.
他既不想出拳也不想踢腿。
He didn't want he didn't wanna do either.
我就只是想，好吧。
And and I was just like, alright.
行吧。
Okay.
好吧。
Okay.
你不必非得做这些事。
You don't have to you don't have to do this stuff.
我想更具体地探讨一下你提到的一个点，我觉得很有意思，那就是强硬与暴力之间的互动。
One thing I wanna get into a little more specifically here is something you're bringing up, which I I think is interesting, which is the sort of interplay between toughness and violence.
对吧？
Right?
比如在这个空手道的情境中，你不仅鼓励他回击，还希望他能保护自己。
Like because in this karate, you know, situation, you're not only encouraging him to hit back, you want him to protect himself.
你当时觉得你的儿子需要学会打架吗？还是说这根本就不是关于打架？
Why did you feel like or did you feel like your son needed to be able to fight, or was it not about fighting?
这对我来说是个核心问题：你能否在反对暴力的同时，培养一个男孩的韧性、坚强、自信，甚至一点霸气？
So this is like the central question for me is, like, can you instill a sense of resilience and toughness and self confidence and even maybe swagger in a boy and be against violence.
对吧？
Right?
完全反对暴力。
Be totally against violence.
对吧？
Right?
所以我的问题是，我也非常厌恶暴力。
And so the question I had is, like, I also abhor violence.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但如果你教孩子武术，不仅仅是学习如何格挡。
And yet, like, if you teach your kids martial arts, it's not just learning how to block.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
听好了。
Look.
我的意思是，我有
All like, I have
得说，我对这个关于暴力的问题依然感到困惑。
to say, like, I still don't know how I feel about this question of violence.
我还没有答案。
I still don't have the answers.
但当我更深入地审视自己时，我想弄清楚的是：在养育儿子这件事上，你对暴力的真实立场是什么？
But what I was trying to figure out, like, as I dug deeper inside of myself is, like, what is your actual position on violence vis a vis raising a son?
你真的认为，应该告诉他，如果情况迫不得已，就必须愿意打别人一拳，打断对方的鼻子，让血从鼻子里流出来吗？
Do you actually think that it is the right thing to do to tell him that he has to be willing to punch someone in the face and break their nose and cause blood to stream out of their nostrils if it comes to it?
还是你真的认为，这永远不值得？
Or do you actually think that is never worth it?
永远都不应该伤害他人？
That it's never okay to harm another human being?
这两种选择各自会带来什么后果？
And what are the ramifications for either of those choices?
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
如果他是个会揍人鼻子、打断鼻梁、让血从鼻孔流出来的人，那会带来一些严重的后果。
If he is the punch the guy in the nose and break his nose and wash the bloodstream out of his nostrils guy, there are some serious consequences to that.
而如果他是那个忍让、退让的人，或者像我小时候那样逃跑的人，那也会带来一些严重的后果。
And if he is the turn the other cheek guy or the runaway guy, which is what I was like as a kid, there's also some serious consequences to that.
你小时候是个忍让的人。
You were the turn the other cheek kid growing up.
是的。
Yeah.
给我描述一下那种情景。
Paint me a picture of that.
年轻的萨姆，那对你来说是什么样子的？
What did that look like for you, young Sam?
我年轻的时候，也许我对自己的记忆太过苛刻了。
When I was younger, like and maybe I'm being too hard on myself and my memories.
但当我年轻时，我觉得每当遇到关键转折点，比如遇到可怕的事情，我就会逃跑、回避情况，或者直接放弃。
But when I was younger, I feel like when there were inflection points for me, like when there was a scary thing, I would run away or I would just avoid the situation, or I would quit.
那些让我感到最羞愧的时刻——我一生中很少感到羞愧，但童年某些时刻确实让我感到羞愧。
The moments that fill me with the greatest shame and I don't have a lot of shame in my life, but I do have shame about certain moments from my childhood.
比如，我记得有一群孩子。
Like, I remember there were these kids.
其中一些人属于一个所谓的‘帮派’。
Some of them were in this, like, gang, quote, unquote.
也许那真是个帮派。
Maybe it was a gang.
也许他们只是这么称呼自己。
Maybe they just called it that.
我的意思是，这些孩子都只有十三岁左右。
I mean, these are, like, 13 year old kids.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这个团体叫JP狗窝。
I think the group was called the JP Dog Pound.
那是他们的绰号。
That was their that was their nickname.
但我和我的朋友们，实际上还有罗布，
But me and my and my buddies, actually, Rob,
天啊。
who Oh my god.
罗布在我们之前的对话中频繁出现。
Rob features heavily in your our previous conversation.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
对于那些听了上一段的人，你知道的，我写的那篇随笔，很多内容都是关于我童年时最好的朋友罗布的。
For those who listened to the last you know, I I wrote the the essay that I wrote, a lot of it was about my my my best friend from childhood, Rob.
我们当时和他们打篮球，狗窝队的一个孩子总是在没人犯规的情况下喊犯规，针对一些根本不算犯规的小事。
And we were playing basketball with them, and one of the kids from the dog pound kept calling foul on bullshit things, when no one was fouling him.
basically，他在作弊。
Basically, he was cheating.
对吧？
Right?
他一直喊着‘犯规，犯规，犯规’，就是为了拿回球权，获得优势。
He kept being like, foul, foul, foul, like so that he could get the ball back and get an advantage.
罗布后来终于忍不住直接揭穿了他。
And Rob just called him out at one point.
他说：‘老兄，这太扯了。’
He's like, bro, that's bullshit.
根本没人犯规你。
No one's fouling you.
那个孩子被激怒了。
And the kid got really riled up by that.
他抓住罗布，掐住他的脖子，把他按在铁丝网围栏上。
And he grabbed Rob and throttled him and pressed him up against this chain link fence.
他简直就是在说：我要把你打得半死。
He was basically he was like, I'm gonna beat the fuck out of you.
我没有跑开，但我记得自己当时就站在那儿，动弹不得。
And I I didn't run away, but I remember, like, I just stood there frozen.
那个孩子最终并没有打罗布，但他一直把他按在围栏上掐着。
Like and and the kid didn't end up beating up Rob, but, like, he held him up against this fence throttling him.
那真是一个可怕时刻。
It was like a scary moment.
我只是没有
And I just didn't
你当时
What were
你有没有做什么尝试去保护他、站出来帮他？
you do anything to try to defend him and step up and help him.
在那一刻，他感到被遗弃了。
And and he felt abandoned in that moment.
而且他有理由为此责怪我。
And justifiably, he gave me a hard time about it.
但那是我回望童年时的一个时刻，我当时因为对暴力的恐惧，做出了对朋友错误的事。
But that is, like, one of the moments where I look back on my childhood, and I'm like, I my fear of violence in that moment led to me doing the wrong thing for my friend.
我因为害怕暴力而抛弃了我的朋友。
Like, I abandoned my friend because I was afraid of violence.
还有其他一些类似的情况，你看。
And there were other incidents where like, look.
我是在城市里长大的。
I grew up in the city.
我的意思是，我不知道现在怎么样了，但那时候有很多打架。
I mean, I I don't know what it's like nowadays, but, like, there were a lot of fights.
那时候经常发生很多斗殴。
There were, like, a lot of fights.
公交站那儿也常有打架。
There were fights at the bus stop.
学校操场上也经常发生斗殴。
There were fights, like, in the schoolyard.
聚会上还常有群体斗殴，有人伤得挺重。
And there were, like, group fights at parties where, like, people got badly hurt.
是的。
Yeah.
但我从不参与这些打架。
And I just never participated in them.
每次一有斗殴，我总会想办法悄悄溜走，躲得远远的。
I would always find a way to, like, slink off somewhere and just, like, make myself scarce when when a fight broke out.
我的朋友们都知道这事，经常拿这个笑话我，给我起各种绰号。
And my friends all all knew it and gave me a hard time about it and called me all kinds of epithets.
他们会叫你什么？
What would they call you?
胆小鬼。
Pussy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
同性恋。
Gay.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
婊子，可能更多是婊子。
Bitch probably bitch probably more
当你从篮球场、派对或任何地方回家时，如果你没有卷入打斗，没有站出来反抗，没有采取行动，那时你心里在想些什么？
And than anything when you were walking home from the basketball court or the party or whatever, where you didn't get involved in a fight, you didn't stand up, you didn't do it, what were what thoughts were you thinking about yourself?
我当时想的是，萨姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森是个小懦夫。
My thought was Sam Graham Felsen is a little bitch.
哦。
Oh.
你是个懦夫。
You're a bitch.
你是个懦夫。
You're a bitch.
你就像在狠狠地揍自己一样。
You're a bit like, my I was beating the shit out of myself
我正要说呢。
I was gonna say
在心里。
internally.
我觉得自己像个垃圾。
I felt like a piece of shit.
我真的很认同西奥多·罗斯福自传里的一句话，他说自己小时候被抢劫后，感觉像是一个命中注定的受害者。
I felt really like there was this phrase in Teddy Roosevelt's autobiography that really struck me, where after he had been mugged as a boy, he said, I felt like a predestined victim.
我真的很能理解那种感受。
And I just I really related to that.
我觉得自己就是一个命中注定的受害者。
I felt like I was a predestined victim.
不管是什么情况，我都是个懦夫。
Like, no matter what the situation was, I was a bitch.
对吧？
Right?
我不会是那个挺身而出的人。
I was not gonna be the guy who stood up.
我跟你说，这正是为什么我在养育自己儿子时如此认真地思考这些问题——因为我小时候对这些事感到非常糟糕，而且它们也影响了我生活的其他方面。
And I'll tell you, like, this is why, like, I cared about thinking through this stuff in raising my own son because I felt really bad about this stuff growing up, and it affected other areas of my life.
怎么做到的？
How?
是的。
Yeah.
我害怕在舞池里跳舞。
I was afraid to dance on a dance floor.
是害怕和女孩跳，还是根本就害怕跳舞？
With girls or just even dance in general?
总的来说，尤其是和女孩一起跳的时候。
In general, but especially with girls.
我害怕女孩。
I was afraid of girls.
我不但害怕向女孩邀约，甚至当女孩邀约我时，我都不敢答应。
And not only was I terrified of asking a girl out, but I was afraid to say yes when a girl asked me out.
因为我觉得在某种程度上，我就是个废物。
Because I think on some level, was just like, well, I I'm a bitch.
所以，像一个懦夫是没法有女朋友的。
So, like, a bitch can't have a girlfriend.
你知道，只有那种真正有男子气概的人，才能拥有女朋友。
Like, you know, only like a only like a man can you know, like someone who's, like, really secure in their masculinity can have a girlfriend.
而且很可能在潜意识里，我在想：我甚至知道该怎么亲一个女孩吗？
Like and probably on some unconscious level, I'm thinking, am I even gonna know how to, like, kiss a girl?
我会知道怎么做这些事吗？
Am I gonna know how to do all this shit?
但这一切都源于一种身为肉体上的懦夫的想法。
But it all comes from the idea of, like, being a physical coward.
你知道，如果我害怕打架，也许我也害怕跳舞。
You know, if I'm physically afraid to fight, maybe I'm physically afraid to dance.
也许我连亲吻都害怕。
Maybe I'm physically afraid to kiss too.
这些想法以各种方式影响了我对自己的看法。
Like, it had all these different effects on the way that I saw myself.
但我要说，这甚至延伸得更远了。
But I'll say, like, it extended even beyond that.
小时候，我不是个好学生。
Like, I was not a good student as a kid.
我差点没能从高中毕业。
I was in danger of flunking out of my high school.
哎哟。
Oof.
因为我缺乏学习的信心。
Because I didn't have the confidence to learn.
我想，怎么做呢？
Like, I thought How?
我觉得自己 basically 是个失败者，或者是个受害者。
I thought I'm like a loser, basically, or I'm like a victim.
我是个懦夫。
I'm I'm a coward.
所以，当有些事情对我来说很难时，比如数学，我就觉得我肯定学不会。
So, like, when something was hard for me, like math, for example, I was just like, I'm not gonna be able to get it.
这一切都是因为你觉得自己软弱，或者无法抗争吗？
And this is all because you felt weak or because you couldn't fight?
所有这些都源于
All of those things came from
是的。
Yeah.
是这个核心吗？
That core?
我的意思是，如果房间里有一位专业治疗师，他们可能会说，这其实跟其他所有事情都有关。
I mean, if there was, like, a professional therapist in the room, they might say, well, it was really about all these other things.
而且当然，它总是
And and, of course, it always
这关乎
It's about
你妈妈。
your mom.
确实如此。
It is about yeah.
它还涉及无数其他事情。
It's about a million other things too.
但我认为核心问题是，我当时缺乏自信。
But I think that the core thing was that I had low self confidence.
现在作为一个成年人都非常热衷于健身、自我提升以及其他许多方面，我生活的基石就是：你实际上可以改善几乎所有事情，但你必须面对痛苦的练习，一开始表现糟糕，然后接受这一点，继续坚持，不放弃。
And now as an adult who's really into fitness and really into, like, self improvement and lots of other ways, the kind of cornerstone of, like, how I live my life is that, like, you actually can get better at pretty much anything, but you have to deal with doing some painful practice and sucking at it at first, and then being okay with that, and continuing to go, and not giving up.
因此，我的整个人生都围绕着不放弃的策略，以及相信练习会让你变得更好的信念。
And so my whole life is built around strategies for not giving up and believing, like, this faith that practice makes you better.
小时候，我只是没有这种信念。
As a kid, I just didn't I didn't have that.
而且再次说，这一切都是因为我害怕战斗吗？
And again, is it all because I was afraid to fight?
不。
No.
但有一个根本性的因素，那就是在最本质的层面上，当真正面临考验时——在街头、在学校操场、在篮球场上——我都没有勇气挺身而出保护自己。
But there was something fundamental about the idea that on the most elemental level, when it really came down to it, on the streets, in the schoolyard, on the basketball court, I was not going to rise up and protect myself.
而所有这些对你而言如此鲜活的童年记忆，如今在你养育儿子的过程中依然萦绕着你。
And all of these memories that are clearly so vivid to you from your childhood are present with you as you're raising your son.
因此，了解了这段背景后，你观看儿子在空手道课上被击中的场景，对我而言就有了完全不同的意义。
And so to me, like, knowing this backstory puts such a different valence on, you know, the scene of you watching your son get punched in karate class.
对吧？
Right?
这不仅仅关乎他被击中，或他没有还手。
It's not just about him getting punched or him not defending himself.
我的意思是，你告诉我，但你当时很可能是在想自己。
I mean, you tell me, but you're probably thinking of yourself in that moment.
你想到的是他。
You're thinking of him.
我的意思是，养育儿子的过程中牵扯出这么多东西。
I mean, there's all these there's all of this stuff that's being brought up by by raising a son.
我记得，我也有个女儿，但我和妻子的第一个孩子是儿子。
And I remember, like, I have a daughter too, but my son is me and my wife's first kid.
我记得，当我们看到超声波图像，意识到我们要生个男孩时，我立刻被这个想法深深触动——养育一个儿子会面临怎样的挑战。
And I remember, like, when we saw the sonogram image and realized we were having a boy, I immediately you know, I was very moved by the idea of, like, the challenge of what it's gonna be like to raise a son.
我一看到超声波图像，就立刻想到，作为父亲，我这一生的挑战将是：如何养育一个男孩，让他成长为一个正直、自信的人。
And I immediately thought, like, the minute I saw that sonogram image, I thought the challenge of my life as a father is gonna be how to raise a boy who becomes a man who is a good person, who feels good about himself.
我认为，一个自我感觉良好的人，更有可能成为关心他人、尊重他人、散发善意与仁爱的人。
And having someone who feels good about himself, I think, increases the likelihood that he will be the kind of person who can take care of other people and respect other people and radiate goodness and kindness.
当我开始看到我儿子的性格逐渐显现时——你知道的，孩子两岁前其实还没有明显的人格特征。
And once I started to see my son's personality come out when you know, like, kids when they're before they're two, they don't really have a personality.
他们基本上就是一团软乎乎的肉块。
They're just like blobs of blubber, basically.
但一旦他的个性开始显露出来，我就想：好吧。
But, like, they when when once he started to have a personality, I'm like, alright.
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这孩子真是像极了我。
This kid is a chip off the old block.
他在很多方面都跟我很像。
Like, he's really like me in a lot of ways.
至于我女儿，情况完全不一样。
And my daughter, by the way, not not like that.
她不会对很多事情感到害怕，但他会。
Like, she doesn't walk around afraid of a lot of stuff, but he does.
我说，好吧。
And I said, alright.
你知道，他在很多方面都跟我很像。
You know, he's really like me in a lot of ways.
我想帮助他比我更快地达到我现在的位置。
And I wanna help him get to the place where I am now a lot faster than I got to it.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
你好。
Hi.
我是《纽约时报》健康版块《Well》的编辑洛里·莱博维奇。
This is Lori Leibovich, editor of Well at the New York Times.
健康和养生领域存在大量错误信息。
There's a lot of misinformation in the health and wellness space.
但在《纽约时报》，无论话题是什么，我们都对所有内容应用相同的新闻标准，无论是肠道微生物组，还是如何获得良好的睡眠。
But at The New York Times, no matter what the topic, we apply the same journalistic standards to everything we write about, whether it's the gut microbiome or how to get a good night's sleep.
即使我们讨论的是像‘空腹喝咖啡对身体有害吗？’这样的问题。
Even if we're talking about something like, is it bad for me to drink coffee on an empty stomach?
我们的读者在阅读《Well》文章时所获得的每一条信息都经过了核实。
Everything that our readers get when they dig into a Well article has been vetted.
我们的记者会咨询专家，联系数十人，进行深入研究。
Our reporters are consulting experts, calling dozens of people, doing the research.
这个过程可能持续数月，以便你能够为自己的身心健康做出明智的决定。
It can go on for months so that you can make great decisions about your physical health and your mental health.
我们格外认真地进行报道，因为我们知道《纽约时报》的订阅者依赖着我们。
We take our reporting extra seriously because we know New York Times subscribers are counting on us.
如果你已经订阅了，谢谢您。
If you already subscribed, thank you.
如果你想要订阅，请前往 nytimes.com/subscribe。
If you'd like to subscribe, go to nytimes.com/subscribe.
所以，你原本的计划是，呃，‘训练’这个词不太对。
So what was your plan to, you know, train's the wrong word.
我们就说，你的计划是想让儿子变得更强韧，教会他韧性。
Let's just say your plan to sort of toughen up your son to teach him resilience.
所以这并不是完全事先策划好的。
So it wasn't totally premeditated.
但确实有那么一点事先策划的成分。
It was a little bit premeditated.
我先说一下，我儿子一直是个有强迫倾向的人。
I'll start by saying my son has always had an obsessive personality.
他目前的痴迷对象已经持续了一年半，那就是国家公园。
His current obsession, which has been an obsession for, like, a year and a half is national parks.
他热爱国家公园。
He loves national parks.
随着他对国家公园的兴趣增加，他开始自己做更多研究，并深深爱上了西奥多·罗斯福——我之前其实并不了解，但西奥多·罗斯福被广泛视为国家公园之父，因为他并没有提出国家公园这个概念，但他极大地扩展了国家公园体系。
And as he got more interested in the national parks, he started doing more of his own research and really fell in love with Teddy Roosevelt, who I hadn't really known this, but Teddy Roosevelt is kind of seen as the godfather of the national parks because he didn't found the national parks as an idea, but he he, like, basically expanded them like crazy.
于是，我儿子对西奥多·罗斯福的兴趣越来越浓厚。
So my son got more and more interested in Teddy Roosevelt.
那他现在多大了？
And how old is he at this time right now?
八岁。
Eight.
八岁。
Eight.
好的。
Okay.
我说，你知道吗？
And and I said, you know what?
既然你这么感兴趣，我们干脆花一整周时间吧。
Like, now that you're getting so into this, let's spend a whole week.
你可以随便选一个公园。
I'll let you pick any park.
他说，我想去恶土。
He was like, I wanna go to the Badlands.
我想去恶土的西奥多·罗斯福国家公园。
I wanna go to Teddy Roosevelt National Park in the Badlands.
那在哪儿？
And where is that?
在国内吗？
In the country?
北达科他州。
North Dakota.
我当时就说，太好了。
And I was like, great.
然后我很快就想明白了。
And then very quickly clicked for me.
我想，首先，恶土，我从来没去过恶土。
I'm like, first of all, the Badlands like, I'd never been to the Badlands.
我一直梦想着去恶土。
I'd always dreamed of going to the Badlands.
那是个超酷的地方。
It's it's a badass place.
它就像是
It's like
听起来不错。
Sounds like it.
那是西部荒野。
It's the Wild West.
这就是西部荒野。
It is the Wild West.
就像是在天涯海角一样。
It's like it's in the middle of nowhere.
附近什么都没有。
There's nothing nearby.
你得开很久的车才能到那儿。
Like, you have to drive for a while to get out there.
这是边疆之地。
It's the frontier.
那是一片布满岩石的艰苦土地。
It's a hard land filled with rocks, basically.
而且这是一个地方，西奥多·罗斯福年轻时真的去过那里，
And it's a it's a place where this is where Teddy Roosevelt actually went when he was in his twenties to
这简直就是阳刚之气的化身。
see It's like masculinity kind of embodied.
对吧？
Right?
到处都是岩石、野牛，还有陡峭的悬崖。
There's, like, rocks and bison and, like, sheer faces of big drops.
确实就是这样。
It is exactly that.
这正是你心目中那个西部荒野的样子。
It's like it's like I mean, it's what you think of is the Wild West.
没错。
Right.
所以，对我来说，带着儿子去这样一个充满阳刚之气的标志性地方，其实挺有意思的。
And so, like, you know, there was something, like, kind of amusing to me about, like, going to this iconic macho place with my son.
但真正让我开始思考的，是读到关于西奥多·罗斯福在那里的经历，了解到他和我、和我儿子一样，小时候是个十足的书呆子，而且非常胆小。
But what really started to get my wheels turning was reading about Teddy Roosevelt and what happened to him out there, and knowing that, like, Teddy Roosevelt, like me, like my son, was actually a huge nerd as a little kid and a hugely fearful little kid.
西奥多·罗斯福小时候经常被欺负。
Teddy Roosevelt got his ass beat as a little kid.
他害怕得不敢出门，必须让弟弟陪着他在周围走动，哦，是的。
He was so scared to leave his house that he needed his little brother to walk around with him Oh, yeah.
为了保护他。
For protection.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们现在提到西奥多·罗斯福，会把他当成一个典型的硬汉。
So Teddy Roosevelt now, like, we think of him as, like, the iconic man.
对吧？
Right?
就是那个留着大胡子、拿着猎枪、墙上挂满动物标本的家伙。
Like, the guy with the big mustache and, like, the hunter's rifle and, like, all the, like, trophies of animals on his wall.
如果你听那些男性向的播客，人们经常会引用西奥多·罗斯福的话。
And, like, if you listen to any of these bro podcasts, people quote Teddy Roosevelt all the time.
勒布朗·詹姆斯每天打篮球前都会在球鞋上写一句西奥多·罗斯福的名言。
He's LeBron James writes a Teddy Roosevelt quote on his shoes before basketball games every night.
一切都与篮球有关。
Everything comes back to basketball.
确实如此。
It really does.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当我开始思考这一切时，我突然觉得，这将是一次真正从周末到周末、持续九天的父子公路旅行。
So once I started thinking about all this, I'm like, I just got kind of tickled by the idea of, like, this is gonna be a real full weekend to weekend, nine day road trip, a father son road trip.
对。
Right.
我想，我们就这么干吧。
And I was thinking, let's do this.
让我们来一次公路旅行，让我和儿子一起探索成为男人的意义，去一个充满男性气质象征的地方，那里也是我儿子的偶像西奥多·罗斯福成长的重要之地。
Like, let's have a road trip where I get to explore what it means to be like a man with my son in a place that was this iconic, you know, sight of of masculinity and an iconic formative location for my son's hero, Teddy Roosevelt.
所以这一切感觉都
So it just felt like all
这些要素。
the ingredients.
我的意思是，确实如此。
I mean, it really is.
就像那片荒凉的景观。
It's like the austere landscape.
没错。
Yep.
在这样一片土地上完成那些艰苦的体力任务。
The harshness of the physical tasks to to navigate that landscape.
当你最终抵达公园时，你希望发生什么？
When you finally get to the park itself, what are you hoping will happen?
你对这次和儿子的旅行，最理想的结果是什么？
What is your, like, dream outcome for this trip with your son?
我最初有个幻想，想着：不如我们就像西奥多·罗斯福那样生活。
So, like, I had some early fantasy of, like, oh, let's live like Teddy Roosevelt did.
比如，我们去找个牧场，骑马到处转转，弄脏自己，做泰迪·罗斯福当年在那片土地上必须做的艰苦事情。
Like, let's go find some, like, dude ranch and, like, ride around on horses and, like, get dirty and, like, do the tough things that Teddy Roosevelt had to do on the land.
然后我意识到，这对我的儿子来说不会是一次有趣的假期。
Then I realized that would not be a very fun vacation for my son.
我想，我不会强迫他做这些。
I'm like, I'm not gonna force him to do that.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得对我自己来说也不会有趣。
I don't think it would have been fun for me either.
其实，我真正想做的是，他当时八岁了，我觉得他已经足够大，可以开始真正地去远足了。
Really, what I what I wanted to do was, like, he is eight at this point, and I'm like, he's old enough to start going on real hikes.
以前，所谓的远足就是围着池塘走一圈，大概十五分钟。
Like, before, it was like, a hike would be like a walk around a pond that took like fifteen minutes.
对吧？
Right?
所以很多情况下，我只是想让他挑战比以往更艰难的徒步，看看他能否应对，因为这
So a lot of it was just, I want to push him to do harder hikes than he's ever done and see if he can deal because it's
不是因为那种不适。
not Because that's the discomfort.
那是韧性。
That's the resilience.
所以咱们继续吧。
So let's go on.
这次徒步听起来有点超出了他的极限，我们先从这个开始。
This hike that is pushing it a little, it sounds like, first.
我的意思是，他这个年纪去徒步，我不知道该怎么说，你知道的
I mean, it's kinda young to be going on a I don't know how how, you know
我第一次带他去徒步是三英里。
The first hike that I tried to do with him was three miles.
好的。
Okay.
这相当不少了。
That's a fair amount.
八英里。
Eight old.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以告诉我那次怎么样了。
So tell me how that went.
你有没有告诉他这次要走多远？
Did you tell him how long it was gonna be?
没有。
Not really.
我用了我爸爸以前对我用的招数，说：哦，没问题的。
I pulled the, like, trick that my dad used to pull on me being like, oh, it'll be fine.
就像，把你推回去。
Like, Up the you back.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这种事。
That kind of thing.
所以你出发了。
So you set out.
几分钟内，他就说：我饿了。
And within minutes, he's like, I'm hungry.
我们回游客中心再拿点零食吧。
Let's go back to the visitor center and get another snack.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还有个笨老爸，我忘了带零食。
And dumb dad, I forgot to bring a snack.
但我跟他说，如果你去徒步，我就在游客中心给你买双倍的零食。
But I'm like, I'll buy you a double snack back at the visitor center if you do the hike.
我使出了所有的诱饵。
I'm trying every bribe in the book.
如果你去徒步，我就给你买一个冰淇淋圣代。
I'll buy you an ice cream sundae if you do the hike.
他一直在抱怨，不想去徒步。
And he's just complaining, and he doesn't wanna do the hike.
而且他还害怕，因为这个公园里有野生野牛。
And then he's also scared because there are wild bison in this park.
野牛是具有攻击性的动物，它们能以每小时35英里的速度冲过来。
And bison are like aggressive animals, and they can charge at 35 miles an hour.
我儿子是个自然迷，所以他知道野牛能以每小时35英里的速度冲过来。
And my son is a big nature nerd, so he knew the fact that they could charge 35 miles an hour.
而且，我们听到灌木丛里有沙沙声，但还没看到任何野牛。
And, like, we were hearing rustling in the bushes, and we had not seen a bison yet.
我当时就想，我真的很、真的很想看到一头野牛。
And I was like, I really, really, really wanna see a bison.
所以当我们听到灌木丛里的沙沙声时，我就说，我们去看看吧。
So when we heard the rustling in the bushes, I'm like, let's go check it out.
就在那时，他抓住了我的手。
And at that point, he grabs my hand.
他跟我说：爸爸，你干什么呢？
He's like, dad, what are you doing?
你吓到我了。
You're scaring me.
快过来。
Get over here.
他紧紧捏了我的手，我当时就想，好吧。
And he really squeezed my hand, and I was like, alright.
我有点过度了。
I'm overdoing this.
我想说我当时其实很含蓄，但说实话，有时候我并不够含蓄。
Well, I wanna say that I was being really subtle, but the truth is, at times, was not being very subtle.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，我会跟他讲一些事情，我们当时在读一本儿童传记。
Like, I was saying things to him, like, we were reading a kid's biography.
比如，如果你去巴诺书店，会有一整个区域叫‘是谁？’系列。
Like, if you go to, like, Barnes and Noble, there's, like, a whole section called, like, who is?
就是《是谁？亚伯拉罕？》这样的书。
It's like, who is Abraham?
比如，谁，是的。
Like, who Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以有这些配有卡通插图的小孩传记。
So there are these little kid biographies with cartoon pictures and stuff.
所以我们正在读《谁是西奥多·罗斯福》。
So we were reading who is Teddy Roosevelt.
西奥多·罗斯福有一句著名的名言，讲的是要过一种充满活力的生活。
And there's this famous quote from Teddy Roosevelt where he talks about living the strenuous life.
是的。
Yes.
所以我不断对他说：来吧。
So I kept saying to him, come on.
让我们过一种充满活力的生活。
Let's live the strenuous life.
让我们过一种充满活力的生活。
Let's live the strenuous life.
嘿，你能行的。
Like, you got this.
我知道这有点远的徒步，但你肯定能行。
Like, I know it's a little bit of a long hike, but you got this.
等你完成的时候，你会感觉特别棒。
You're gonna feel really good when you're done.
然后他一直抱怨。
And then finally, he just kept complaining.
我说，好吧。
I'm like, alright.
我们今天就到这里吧。
Let's call it a day.
这可是第一天啊。
Like, it's the first day.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
他对徒步旅行没什么兴趣。
He's not into this hiking stuff.
是的。
Yes.
但我不会在第一天就逼得太紧。
And I'm not gonna push it too hard on the first day.
但有趣的是，第二天他完全出乎我的意料。
But then interestingly, the next day, he, like, totally surprised me.
我们开车去了公园的另一个区域，那是公园里更崎岖的部分。
We drove to another part of the park, like a much more rugged part of the park.
他说：我们走小路吧。
And he was like, let's go off trail.
然后你就说：要过充实的生活。
And you were like, strenuous life.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时想，好吧。
I was like, okay.
然后他突然对爬那些叫但丘的地形产生了浓厚兴趣。
And then he got really into the idea of climbing up they're called buttes.
这些就像试着想象大峡谷，但倒过来了。
These are like like, try to picture the Grand Canyon, but upside down.
是的。
Yeah.
那是巨大的岩石构造。
It's huge rock formations.
是的。
Yeah.
这些美丽的、层层叠叠、五彩斑斓的岩石构造，像高原一样。
These beautiful, like, layered, like, multicolored rock formations that are, like, plateaus.
他说：我们去爬那个但丘吧。
And he was like, let's go climb that butte.
然后，他爬上了那个但丘，我跟在他后面。
And then, like, he climbed this butte, and I'm following after him.
他坚持要走在最前面。
And he he insisted in being in in the front.
他想当开路先锋。
He wanted to be the trailblazer.
他说：想当开路先锋。
He's like, wanna be the trailblazer.
然后我在想：好吧。
And then I'm thinking like, alright.
我们已经离常规路径越来越远了。
We're getting really far away from the beaten path
你觉得是什么原因，让他从一天前说‘爸爸，你吓到我了’，变成了今天在这但丘上冲在前面、当开路先锋？
what do you think changed from one day to another to make him be like, dad, you're scaring me, to now this day running ahead on the Butte, being the trailblazer?
你觉得是什么原因呢？
What do you think it was?
所以我们每天晚上都会读书，读《西奥多·罗斯福》这本书的一些章节。
So we did read every night, we were reading parts of the Teddy Roosevelt book.
我们还读到了一段关于西奥多·罗斯福小时候被欺负的内容。
And we did read a part about when Teddy Roosevelt got beat up as as a kid.
哇哦。
Woah.
于是我们讨论了，西奥多·罗斯福小时候并不勇敢，也不强壮。
And so we talked about, like, that Teddy Roosevelt was not brave as a kid, and he was not strong as a kid.
而且，你知道，这时候我试着说得更含蓄一点，但其实我是在告诉他：西奥多·罗斯福后来改变了。
And, you know, again, I'm trying at this point to, like, be a little bit more subtle, but I'm basically saying to him, like, Teddy Roosevelt changed.
他天生并不坚强。
He was not naturally tough.
他是让自己变得更强壮的，而我也做了同样的事。
Like, he made himself tougher, and I did the same thing myself.
我认为他可能是受到这个想法的启发，更多是来自西奥多·罗斯福，而不是我。
And I think he was probably inspired by that idea, more by Teddy Roosevelt than by me.
但说实话，这确实让我感到惊讶。
But, like, it did surprise me, though.
我开始对他说，我们已经离小路越来越远了
I started saying to him, I'm like, we are getting really far away from
小路。
the trail.
但他却在但特山上奔跑。
But he's running on the on the buttes.
是的。
Yeah.
他不断找到比上一座但特山更高的山，越爬越高，艰难地攀爬这些岩石。
And he he kept finding another butte that was even higher than the last butte and going higher and higher and kinda scrambling on these rocks.
有一刻，我们不仅远离了小路，还站在了一条狭窄的山脊上。
And at one point, not only are we far from the trail, but we're on this narrow ridge.
你又要吓我一次了。
You're gonna scare me again.
好吧。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一下，北达科他州的天气以变幻莫测著称，瞬间就会变化。
And by the way, the weather in North Dakota is famously mercurial, and it changes on a dime.
那里也是龙卷风频发的地区之一。
And it is one of the big places for tornadoes.
而且总的来说，那边的极端天气总是毫无预兆地突然出现。
And just in general, like, crazy weather just comes out of nowhere out there.
所以天空开始发生变化，风也渐渐变大了。
So the sky started to change, and, like, the wind started to pick up.
我当时就说：我们得赶紧往回走。
And I'm like, we gotta go back down here.
我们可能会被直接吹下但特山。
Like, we could get literally get blown off of the Butte.
而且这时候我们离人烟如此遥远，根本没人能来帮我们。
And, like, there's no one out here to help us because we are way off the beaten path at this point.
我开始害怕了，但他却不害怕。
And I'm starting to get scared, but he wasn't scared.
他居然转过身来对我说：走吧。
He was like he actually turned to me, and he's like, come on.
我们过着这种艰苦的生活。
We're living this strenuous life.
来吧，走吧。
Like like, come on.
来啊，爸爸，快点。
Come come on, dad.
于是我让他再往前走了一会儿。
So I let him go for a little while longer.
自豪吗？
Proud?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
你既害怕又自豪。
You were scared and proud.
而且这些感受是同时发生的。
And these things were happening at the same time.
顺便说一下，在下山的路上，这其实很好地说明了为什么保持在路径上比擅自探路更重要。
And then, by the way, on the way down, this is like a good lesson for why it is actually important to stay on a path rather than to, like, just go trailblazing.
下山时坡度非常陡，我有一次滑倒了，腿被碎石划得挺严重的。
It was really steep on the way down, and I slipped at one point and, like, kinda badly cut up my leg on on the gravel.
我滑倒后，顺着山坡滑了一段，而他当时在我前面，结果我直接滑撞到他身上了。
But I slipped and, like, slid down part of the butte, and, like, he was ahead of me, I actually slid into him.
我当时担心的不仅是我的腿在流血，还担心我撞得他太重，把他弄伤了。
And I was worried that not only was my leg bleeding, but I was worried that I had hurt him because I hit him kinda hard.
通常情况下，他一看到血就会吓坏。
And normally, he freaks out at the sight of blood.
和我一样，他特别怕打针。
Like me, he hates shots.
每到流感季，他都说：如果没错过流感，我就不打针。
Every time it's flu season, he's like, if there's not flu missed, I'm not doing it.
我才不要打流感疫苗。
I'm not getting a flu shot.
所以我心想：天啊。
So I'm like, oh god.
这下他看到血肯定要吓坏了。
Now he's gonna freak out at the blood.
可他却只是说：你没事。
And and he was just like, you're good.
你没事的。
You're okay.
你没事的。
You're okay.
你会好起来的。
You're you're gonna be fine.
所以我在想，那一刻，我心里想，这事发生得比我预期的快多了。
So I'm thinking, like, at that moment, I'm like, this is happening way faster than I was expecting.
我心里想，这家伙变化得真快。
I'm like I'm like, this guy, like, is changing so quickly.
这太不可思议了。
Like, this is incredible.
你心想，我做到了。
You're like, I did it.
任务完成。
Mission accomplished.
我当时真的在想，自己正一瘸一拐地走下山。
I really, like, was thinking to myself as as I'm, like, limping down the mountain.
我觉得这完全按照计划进行。
I'm like, this is really working out according to plan.
这太不可思议了。
This is incredible.
当然，你知道的，孩子的情绪说变就变。
And of course, like, you know, kids change on a dime.
所以，之后旅途中发生了一些有趣的变化，等你想聊的时候我们再细说。
So, like, things things took an interesting turn after that on the trip, which we can get into when you want to.
但事情并不是那种稳步上升的过程——越来越勇敢、越来越艰难，然后他从荒野中走出来，像个硬汉一样。
But but it wasn't like this steady ascent of, like, braver and braver and more strenuous life and, you know, where he emerged from the badlands like a macho man.
是的。
Yeah.
中间出现了一些巨大的意外。
There were some big curveballs.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
如果故事在这里结束，你的文章标题就会不同。
If the story were to end here, the title of your piece would be different.
因为现在，我试图把自己逼得更坚强。
Because right now, it's it's I tried to stuff myself up.
事情并没有按计划进行。
Things did not go according to plan.
但如果你只是以他从山丘上慌忙跑下来，喊着‘快点，爸爸’结尾的话。
But if you just ended with him, you know, scrambling down the butte and being like, come on, dad.
跟上。
Catch up.
那就会变成：我在荒原上努力让儿子变得坚强，而且成功了。
It would be I tried to toughen up my son in the Badlands, and it worked.
那到底是什么呢？
So what was that?
这会是我如何让我的儿子成为荒野硬汉，是的。
It would have been how I made my son a Badlands badass Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
作者：萨姆·格雷厄姆·费尔苏斯。
By Sam Graham Felsus.
顺便说一下，我也点开了那个。
And by the way, I click on that too.
但是，等等，到底发生了什么？
But what but what so what happened?
那接下来呢？
So what next?
首先，旅途中发生了一些复杂的事情。
Well, first of all, there were things that were happening on the trip that were complicated.
我们看到了很多、听到了很多，引发了艰难的对话，我想我多少有点心理准备去谈这些，但还没完全想好该怎么跟他聊这些话题。
There were lots of things that we were seeing and hearing that prompted difficult conversations that I guess I was, like, a little bit prepared to talk about, but hadn't really fully thought through what I was gonna say to him about some of these topics.
所以我来举几个例子。
So I'll get I'll give a few examples.
比如，北达科他州有很多原住民。
Like, there's a lot of native people in North Dakota.
而且实际上，许多国家公园遗址都建在神圣的原住民土地上，这并不妥当。
And actually, a lot of these national park sites are on holy native sites, which is not cool.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
拉什莫尔山建在一座圣山上，而我们却在上面刻了几个面孔。
And Mount Rushmore is on a holy mountain, and we just carved some faces into it.
这并不妥当。
That wasn't cool.
所以我的儿子正在目睹这一切，开始意识到他最爱的东西——国家公园——其实有着令人不安的另一面：我们视为全民共享的美好公共空间的许多地方，原本都是
So my son is seeing this and starting to realize that the thing that he loves more than anything else in the world, national parks, has this kind of problematic There's, like, a flip side to that coin, which is that, like, a lot of these places that we see as, like, this beautiful idea of a public space for all were in
事实如此。
fact taken.
别人被夺走的土地。
Someone else's land that got taken away.
所以我正在向他解释这些事。
So I'm, like, explaining that stuff to him.
是的。
Yeah.
我们实际上开车经过了美国原住民种族灭绝历史上最臭名昭著的大屠杀遗址，是的。
We actually drove through the site of the most infamous massacre in the history of the genocide of Native American people Yeah.
那就是伤膝河。
Which was at Wounded Knee.
它位于南达科他州。
So that's in South Dakota.
那里有一百多名原住民被美国士兵近距离射杀。
And it's a place where over a 100 Native Americans were just shot at point blank by US soldiers.
所以他开始问越来越多的问题。
So he starts asking more and more questions.
比如他跟我说：‘爸爸，印第安人真的做过了什么该遭此报应的事吗？’
Like, he says to me, he's like, dad, like, did the Native Americans, like, do anything to deserve this?
我跟他说：没有。
I'm like, no.
他们没有。
They didn't.
实际上，他们根本没做任何该遭此报应的事。
Actually, they didn't do anything to deserve this.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
那真是一次艰难的对话，得说‘是的’。
That was a hard conversation just to be like, yeah.
这些人民遭受了非常恶劣的对待，这根本无法辩解。
A very bad thing was done to these people, and there's no way about there's no way of excusing it.
顺便说一句，你心目中的英雄西奥多·罗斯福，在这件事上也并不光彩。
And by the way, your hero, Teddy Roosevelt, wasn't exactly great on this stuff either.
对吧？
Right?
他开始问一些问题，有一次他跟我说：爸爸，西奥多·罗斯福是个坏人还是好人？
And he starts to ask questions like he says to me at one point, he's like, dad, was Teddy Roosevelt a bad guy or a good guy?
我当时愣了很久，心想：天啊，我到底该怎么说？
And I'm like and I paused for a long time, and I'm like, man, what am I you know, what do I say here?
西奥多·罗斯福是个狂热的帝国主义者。
Teddy Roosevelt was a massive imperialist.
西奥多·罗斯福认为非白人是低等的，觉得去掠夺他们的东西也没什么大不了。
Teddy Roosevelt believed that non white people were inferior and, like, that it was kind of alright to go take their shit.
西奥多·罗斯福热爱暴力。
Teddy Roosevelt loved violence.
这就是西奥多·罗斯福阴暗的一面，那个阳刚的男人。
That's the dark side of Teddy Roosevelt, the masculine guy.
你知道，我有时候会想，要是西奥多·罗斯福小时候没有被抢劫过会怎样。
And, like, you know, I sometimes think, like, what if Teddy Roosevelt hadn't been mugged as a little boy.
对吧？
Right?
西奥多·罗斯福原本计划成为一名科学家。
Teddy Roosevelt had planned to become a scientist.
他打算当一名博物学家。
Like, was gonna be a naturalist.
他原本的志向是四处收集苔藓样本、蝾螈，观察它们，然后把它们放进博物馆。
Like, he had planned to his ambition was to, like, go around collecting, like, moss samples and, like, salamanders and, like, looking at them and putting them in museums.
他本可能就这样成为一个人，而不是一个帝国主义者。
Mighty have just turned out like that instead of, like, an imperialist.
所以如果西奥多跌落了，对你儿子来说，有没有人取而代之呢？
So if Teddy's falling, is anyone rising in the ranks for your son in terms of Yes.
所以值得痴迷的榜样是哪些？
So role models to be obsessed with?
这次旅行我们开了很多车。
So we did a lot of driving on this trip.
他进行了很多徒步，我为他保持了很好的态度感到骄傲。
And he's he's doing a lot of hiking, and I'm proud of him for having a really good attitude.
他能坚持完成徒步吗？
And he's getting through the hikes?
是的。
Yeah.
他更好了吗？
He's Better?
他现在能更好地完成徒步了。
Getting he's getting through the hikes better.
好的。
Okay.
他现在好多了。
He's just he is doing a lot better.
我为他这一点感到骄傲。
And and I'm proud of him for that.
我开始觉得，好吧。
And I'm starting to be like, alright.
你可以玩你的iPad了。
You can have your iPad time.
是的。
Yeah.
他可能已经看了《小鬼当家》九百遍了，因为他太喜欢这部电影了。
And he had watched he probably watched Home Alone for the nine hundredth time because he's obsessed with Home Alone.
我在想，你知道吗？
And I'm like, know what?
我们下一部新电影吧。
Let's download a new movie.
我刚发现《小鬼当家》这部电影可以看了，那是我童年最爱的电影之一。
I just saw that Pee Wee's Big Adventure is available, and that was one of my favorite childhood movies.
所以我干脆靠边停车，给他下载了这部电影。
So, basically, I pulled over, like, load this movie up for him.
然后我们一开车，我就听到后座传来阵阵笑声。
And then, like, we start driving, and then I just start hearing cracking up in the back seat.
他简直笑得停不下来，我从没听过他笑得这么开心。
And he's just like, I've never heard him laugh so much.
然后他跟我说：爸爸。
And he's like, dad.
他接着说：天哪。
He's like, oh my god.
他一直倒回那个场景，那个欺负皮威的恶霸弗朗西斯偷走了皮威的自行车，而皮威通过问他要不要嚼口香糖来报复他。
And he keeps rewinding this one scene where, this bully, this arch nemesis of Pee Wee's named Francis has stolen Pee Wee's bike, and and Pee Wee gets revenge on him by, like, asking him if he wants a piece of gum.
他把一块口香糖给了弗朗西斯。
And he gives a piece of gum to Francis.
弗朗西斯说：‘哦，你真好，皮威。’
And Francis is like, oh, that's so sweet of you, Pee Wee.
太感谢你了。
Thank you so much.
弗朗西斯嚼了之后，发现这是恶作剧口香糖，突然有一团黑色黏液从他嘴里流出来
And Francis chews it and turns out to be trick gum, and, like, this black ooze, like, comes, like, out of
他的恶作剧口香糖。
his trick gum.
他吓坏了。
He's, like, horrified.
是的。
Yeah.
我儿子觉得这简直是最搞笑的事情了。
And and my son thinks it's, like, the funniest thing ever.
他喊着：‘天哪。’
He's like, oh my god.
恶作剧口香糖。
Trick gum.
太棒了。
That's amazing.
他一下子就爱上了这部电影里的很多情节，比如皮威，他是个特别胆小的人，嗯。
And he just fell in love with like, lot of what a lot of what happens in this movie is, like, Pee Wee, who is a really wimpy guy Mhmm.
绝对和西奥多·罗斯福那种能量完全相反。
Definitely the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt energy.
他靠自己的机智生存，靠一些小把戏过关。
Like, he kinda gets by on his wits, and he gets by with, like, little tricks.
他不是靠打人来解决问题，而是靠给人们恶作剧口香糖之类的东西。
And he gets by, like, not by punching people in the face, but by giving people, like, trick gum and stuff like that.
我儿子真的、真的、真的、真的特别有共鸣。
And my son just really, really, really, really vibed with it.
后来，当我们再次去远足时，他突然开始问起来。
And later on, when we're hiking again, he just starts asking.
他问我：爸爸，哪里能买到那种恶作剧口香糖？
He's like, dad, can you buy trick gum anywhere?
我说：我小时候也玩过这种恶作剧口香糖。
And I was like, when I was a kid, I had trick gum.
他说：等等。
He's like, wait.
你小时候也玩过这种口香糖？
You had trick gum?
太不可思议了。
That's incredible.
他说：给我讲讲吧。我说：是的。
He's like, tell me about I was like, yeah.
就是那样的。
It was just like that.
你嚼的时候，会有一股黑墨水从嘴里渗出来。
Like, when you chewed it, it made this black ink ooze out of your mouth.
他问：你的舌头变黑持续了多久？
He's like, how long was your tongue black for?
我说：大概两个小时吧，你的舌头会一直黑着。
I was like, probably, like, two hours your tongue was black.
他惊呼：天哪。
He's like, oh my god.
你用这种魔术口香糖捉弄过谁？
Who did you trick with the trick gum?
我说：我想我是用它捉弄了我弟弟。
I was like, I think I tricked my little brother with it.
他惊呼：天哪。
He's like, oh my god.
你用魔术口香糖捉弄过乔叔叔？
You tricked uncle Joe with the trick gum?
然后他就问：那你还有其他把戏吗？
So then so then then he's like, did you have any other tricks?
我说，是的。
I'm like, yeah.
我有个手部震动器，你可以假装友好地和别人握手。
I had this hand buzzer where, like, you could pretend you were being friendly and shaking someone's hand.
是的。
Yeah.
但当他们和你握手时，就会突然震动，特别吓人。
But then they would shake your hand, and and it would buzz them like a like Totally.
感觉像被电了一下，他们会被吓一跳。
It felt like a shock, and they get really scared.
我还有一样东西，他们打开一罐爆米花时，会突然弹出一条吓人的蛇。
And I had this other thing where they open a can of popcorn and, like, this crazy snake thing pops out.
对。
Yes.
他说，天哪。
He's like, oh my god.
到那时，他整个人都震惊了。
And he's like, his mind is blown by then.
他跟我说，我不是在开玩笑。
He's like, I'm not kidding.
这场对话持续了一个小时，我跟他讲了我小时候所有搞恶作剧的把戏。
This conversation lasted for, like, an hour where I told him about all of the tricks that I had as a kid.
是的。
Yeah.
在剩下的旅途中，他肯定把《小鬼当家》重看了六七遍。
And for the rest of the trip, like, he must have rewatched Pee Wee's great adventure six or seven times on this trip.
每当我转身或去洗手间时，他就开始偷偷上我的电脑，去亚马逊购物。
And he started, like, going on when I would, like, turn my back or go to the bathroom, he'd, like, get on my computer and go on Amazon.
他会搜索皮威·赫尔曼的服装，想买一条红色领结，而且越来越着迷。
He would, like, look up Pee Wee Herman outfits and, like, wanted to buy, like, a red bow tie, and and, like, he's getting really, really into it.
我要补充一点，虽然这很明显，但如果你了解这两个人，或者能在脑海中想象他们的样子，皮威和我们刚才讨论的粗犷西部形象完全不搭。
And I will just note, even though it's it's pretty obvious, if you know these two men or you can see them in their in your mind's eye, like, Pee Wee is very, very not the rugged Wild West archetype we've been talking about.
他可以说是没有明显性别特征的。
He's sort of, I would say, kind of genderless.
他很机智。
He's witty.
他很狡猾。
He's wily.
他很怪异。
He's weird.
他非常真实，但他也很古怪。
He's, like, very authentic, but he's he's strange.
他做着自己的事情。
He's doing his own thing.
这很有趣。
And it's interesting.
我的意思是，他就像
I mean, it's like he's
不坚强。
not tough.
他不坚强。
He's not tough.
但，嗯，他声音挺高的。
But, like, yeah, he's he has a kind of high pitched voice.
他走路的样子有点像芭蕾舞者一样。
He he walks around in kind of like a almost like balletic way.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但他是个男人。
But he's a man.
他是个成年男人。
He's a grown man.
而且我儿子并不会觉得皮威不是一个男人。
And I don't and my son is not looking at Peewee being like, well, he's not a man.
是的。
Yeah.
他就只是说，对。
He's just like, yeah.
那是另一种类型。
That's a different kind
我想给自己买个领结。
of I wanna bow tie for myself.
是的。
Yeah.
他明显正在朝着某个方向发展，他有了一个新的偶像，而且不是西奥多·罗斯福。
He is clearly, like, moving in the direction of, like, he's got a new hero, and it's not Teddy Roosevelt.
而是皮威·赫尔曼。
It's Pee Wee Herman.
而且，我对此感到非常开心，甚至被触动了，因为小时候我是个狂热的喜剧迷。
And mostly, I'm tickled and even moved by this because, like, I was a big comedy nerd as a kid.
我超爱皮威。
I love Pee Wee.
所以我才给他看了那部电影。
That's why I showed him the move the movie.
我更大的偶像其实是怪人奥尔·扬科维奇。
Like, my bigger hero was weird, Al Yankovic.
我喜欢喜剧，我到现在依然喜欢喜剧。
Like, comedy I still love comedy.
我和我妻子总是没法就看哪部电影达成一致，因为我总想看一部傻乎乎的喜剧。
Like, I every every my wife and I can never agree on a movie because I always wanna watch a dumb comedy.
我是说
I'm like
但你确实因为他的痴迷而和儿子建立了联系。
like But you're feeling connected to your son in this in his obsession.
但与此同时，我能问一下，他如此痴迷于皮威吗？
But at the same time, can I just ask, like, him becoming obsessed with with Pee Wee?
是的。
Yeah.
你为此担心过吗？
Were you worried about that?
比如，如果你开始模仿像皮威这样与众不同的人，你担心过吗？
Like, if you started to emulate someone who is different in these ways like Pee Wee is, were you worried?
我的意思是，回到我们对话的开头，直白地说，你担心他会挨打吗？
I mean, to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation, just straight up, were you worried he'd get beat up?
是的。
Yes.
他开始戴领结了。
He started wearing the bow tie.
是的。
Yes.
而且这里有个关键点。
And and here's the thing.
对吧？
Right?
在电影里，我再次强烈推荐大家去看。
In the movie, which I, again, I highly recommend people watch.
这是一部很棒的电影。
It's a great movie.
但在电影中，这是一个美好的幻想，因为皮威其实并没有被欺凌。
But in the movie, it's a beautiful fantasy because Pee Wee doesn't really get bullied.
只有一个叫弗朗西斯的混蛋偷了他的自行车。
There is one jerk named Francis who steals his bike.
但在他那个虚构的小城镇里，有一群兄弟，他们是那种肌肉发达的山地自行车爱好者，还给他击掌。
But, like, there are these bros in his in his little fictional town who are these alpha mountain biker bros, and, like, they give him high fives.
他得到了尊重。
He gets respect.
他不是个失败者，也不是个书呆子，更不是个懦夫，也不是个娘们儿。
He's not a loser, and he's not a geek, and he's not a wimp, and he's not a bitch.
他就是佩威本人。
Like, he's just he's Pee Wee.
每个人都喜欢佩威。
Everyone loves Pee Wee.
对吧？
Right?
他完全做自己。
He's completely himself.
他穿着古怪的服装。
He dresses in weird outfits.
在电影的某个时刻，他在一帮摩托车手面前穿上了高跟靴子。
At one point in the movie, he puts on these high heeled boots in front of a biker gang.
他跳了一支疯狂的舞蹈，但那帮摩托车手却非常喜欢。
And he does a crazy dance, but the biker gang loves it.
他们说：你真是个硬汉。
And they're like, you're the man.
我们爱你，兄弟。
We love you, man.
他就这样用他的魅力征服了所有人。
Like like like and and and so he spellbinds everybody with his charisma.
这种魅力源于他对自己作为独特而强大个体的坚定信念。
And the charisma is born of an absolute belief in himself as as an idiosyncratic powerhouse individual.
他就像是个巨星。
And just like he's like a diva.
他就是他自己，嗯。
He just is who he is Mhmm.
自豪地、完全地、独特地做自己。
Proudly, totally individually and idiosyncratically.
他因此赢得了世界的尊重。
And he gets respect from the world for that.
看着我儿子开始崇拜皮威·赫尔曼，我觉得很悲哀，我在想，如果我儿子能做一个完全独特、古怪的人，并为此感到自豪，想穿什么就穿什么，不参加体育运动，反而跳奇怪的舞蹈，那该多好啊。
And what was sad for me watching that, especially seeing my son starting to idolize Pee Wee Herman, is thinking like, well, wouldn't that be amazing if my son could be like a total idiosyncratic weirdo and proud of it and dress however he wants to dress and not play sports and instead do weird dances and wear what you know?
但在现实世界里，皮威不会被打得鼻青脸肿吗？
But like, in the real world, wouldn't Pee Wee get his ass beat?
在现实世界里，人们会不会用污秽的、恐同的词语辱骂皮威？
In the real world, wouldn't wouldn't people be calling pee wee nasty, homophobic words?
事实上，我儿子并不知道，在现实世界里，皮威确实被恐同文化毁了，是的。
And in fact, like, my son doesn't know this, but in the real world, pee wee did get fucked over by homophobic culture Yeah.
他的生活也因此被毁了。
And had his life ruined by it.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
当然，我儿子并不知道这些。
And of course, like, my son doesn't know all of that.
当然不会。
Of course not.
但我正在想，好吧。
But I am thinking, like, okay.
我愿意让他完全投入到这件事中。
I'm willing to, like, let him go all in on this.
顺便说一下，如果由他决定，他每天都会穿西装、打领结去上学。
And by the way, he he literally, like if he if it was up to him, he would wear a suit to school with a bow tie every day.
我已经告诉他，他可以偶尔这么穿。
I have told him, like, he can do it sometimes.
大部分时间他还是得穿普通的连帽衫和牛仔裤。
Like, he's gotta wear regular hoodie and jeans most of the time.
天哪。
Oh my god.
但他确实穿得像小威。
But, like, he does dress like Wee.
但你看着他越来越沉迷于这部电影，沉迷于皮威，你告诉我，你看着这一切觉得很棒，但同时你也觉得，这并不是真实的世界。
But you're watching him become obsessed with with this movie, with Pee Wee, And you're telling me, like, you're you're looking at this and and you think it's wonderful, and you also are like, this is not the real world.
如果你真的每天穿着西装、打着领结去上学，你可能会被欺负，甚至被打。
And if you were to truly wear your suit and your bow tie to school every day, you might get picked on, beat up.
在你的片段中，有这样一个场景，你能感受到你在努力平衡：一方面想鼓励儿子展现真实的自我，另一方面又想提醒他现实世界的规则，让他学会保护自己。
There's this scene that you have in your piece where you can kind of sense you grappling with, like, wanting to encourage this authentic part of your son, but also trying to remind him of the kind of real world dynamics that you wanna have him protect himself from.
你能解释一下吗？实际上你是通过一点角色扮演来做到的。
Can you explain and and you do it via, like, a bit of role playing, actually.
你能解释一下这次旅行快结束时发生了什么吗？
Can you explain what happened towards the end of the trip?
所以在旅行的最后一个晚上，我们进行了一次公路旅行。
So on the last night of the trip, we we had this road trip.
发生了很多事情。
A lot of stuff happened.
他明显从对紧张刺激生活的兴奋，转向了对皮威生活方式的更大热情，这没什么问题。
He clearly moved from getting really excited about the strenuous life to getting more excited about the pee wee life, which is fine.
而且，你知道，就像，我
And, you know, like like, I
想要经典。
want Classic.
他就是他本人。
He's who he is.
而且在这次旅行中，他通过很多方式让我看到，他可能不像其他孩子那样身体上勇敢，但他非常情感上勇敢。
And and and he also showed me on this trip in a lot of ways that he may not be as physically brave as other kids, but he's very emotionally brave.
他是那种孩子
He's the kind of kid
会指出关于西奥多·罗斯福的事情。
Who will point out the thing about Teddy Roosevelt.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一下，他还会非常坦率地谈论自己的感受，就像，我的意思是，除非我和你一起上播客，否则我根本没法谈论我的感受？
And by the way, also, we'll we'll talk about his own feelings very openly in a way that, like, I can I mean, unless I'm on a podcast with you, I can never talk about my feelings?
但基本上，是的，他会说一些这样的话，比如‘我感到难过，因为我感到孤独，是因为这样或那样。’
But basically, like, yeah, he'll say things like, I'm feeling sad because I'm feeling lonely, like, because of this or that.
他真的会把这些感受大声说出来。
Like, he'll he'll actually articulate those things out loud.
不过，总之，旅程快结束了。
But, anyway, like, it's the end of the trip.
他正在朝那个小孩子的方向转变。
He's turning in that peewee direction.
而我脑子里想着，你看，我是个创意工作者。
And I am thinking in the back of my head, like, look, I'm a creative professional.
我希望他能有独特性。
Like, I want him to be unique.
我最不想做的，就是有个普通得不能再普通的儿子。
The last thing I wanna do is have a normie as a son.
对吧？
Right?
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