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我是Winna Lu。
I'm Winna Lu.
我负责编写游戏Connections，这是纽约时报游戏中的谜题之一。我喜欢恐怖电影，爱我的狗，也喜欢想办法骗你。
I write the game Connections, one of the puzzles from New York Times Games, and I love horror movies, I love my dog, and I love trying to trick you.
我是Tracy Bennett。
I'm Tracy Bennett.
我每天负责挑选Wordle的单词，这可比听起来要难多了。
I get to pick the Wordle word every day, which is not as easy as it sounds.
关于我的一个有趣事实是，我是塞勒姆审判中一位女巫的后代。
A fun fact about me is that I am descended from a witch who was put on trial in Salem.
纽约时报游戏是由像你刚才听到的那些人制作的。
New York Times Games are made by people, like the ones you just heard from.
今天就访问nytimes.com/games开始玩吧。
Go to nytimes.com/games to start playing today.
嘿，大家好，我是Anna。
Hey, everyone, it's Anna.
在开始今天的节目之前，我想跟你聊聊我们在《纽约时报》的另一档节目，叫《Popcast》。
Before we get into today's show, I want to tell you about another show we have here at The Times called "Popcast."
这是我们的流行文化聊天节目，由评论家约翰·卡拉马尼卡和记者乔·科斯卡雷利主持。
It's our pop culture chat show hosted by critic John Caramanica and reporter Joe Coscarelli.
《Popcast》现在每周更新，有音频也有视频。
"Popcast" is now weekly in audio and video.
我得说，我超爱这档节目。
And I got to tell you, I love it.
如果你喜欢我们节目的对话风格，你也会喜欢《Popcast》的。
If you like conversations on our show, you will like "Popcast."
他们采访过很多名人，比如坏兔子、奥利维亚·罗德里戈、A$AP Rocky、安妮·海瑟薇，还有很多很多。
They've got interviews with people like Bad Bunny, Olivia Rodrigo, A$AP Rocky, Anne Hathaway, and so much more.
你可以在《纽约时报》的App里找到《Popcast》，顺便说一句，如果你还没订阅，在App里第一个月是免费的。
You can find "Popcast" in The New York Times app, which by the way, if you aren't a subscriber yet, your first month in the app is free.
好了，我们开始今天的节目吧。
All right, onto the show.
现在和永远都爱。
Love now and always.
你昨晚恋爱了吗？
Did you fall in love last night?
就告诉她我爱她。
Just tell her I love her.
爱比你能想到的任何东西都强大。
Love was stronger than anything you could think of.
为了爱。
For the love.
爱。
Love.
我爱你胜过一切。
And I love you more than anything.
什么是爱？
What is love?
这就是爱。
It's love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这里是《现代爱情》，今天我要对话的是导演乔·斯万伯格。
This is "Modern Love," and today I'm talking to director Joe Swanberg.
乔几乎整个成年生活和职业生涯都在拍摄关于复杂关系的电影。
Joe has spent pretty much his entire adult life and his career making movies about messy relationships.
你可能知道他的电影《酒友》或者Netflix的剧集《轻松》，这些作品都在讲述爱情可以有多复杂。
You might know his movie "Drinking Buddies" or the Netflix series "Easy," and these are all about how complicated love can be.
一个人说了一件事，实际上他们想表达的是完全相反的意思。
Someone says one thing, they actually mean the total opposite.
某天醒来，你对伴侣的感觉变了，却不知道为什么。
You wake up one day, and you feel differently about your partner, you don't know why.
有人藏着秘密，然后一切就失控了。
Someone's keeping secrets, and everything spirals out of control.
就是那种混乱。
It's that kind of mess.
乔的生活在和他妻子在一起二十多年后分居后变得一团糟，不久之后，乔开始和一个年轻女性约会。
Joe's life got messy after he and his wife separated after more than 20 years together, and pretty soon after, Joe started seeing a younger woman.
这当然很老套，但问题是，乔自己也知道这很老套，而且在整个对话中，我真的很惊讶他对自己犯的错误以及从中吸取的教训如此坦诚。
That is, of course, quite cliché, but the thing is, Joe knows it's cliché, and throughout our conversation, I was really surprised by how open he was about the mistakes he made and everything he learned from them.
所以今天，乔和我讨论这一切如何激发了他的新电影《太阳永不落》。
So today, Joe and I discuss how all of this inspired his new movie, "The Sun Never Sets."
我们聊了他的离婚、中年危机，以及当爱情面临考验时，你能让自己多么惊讶。
We get into his divorce, his midlife crisis, and how much you can surprise yourself when there's love on the line.
乔·斯万伯格，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Joe Swanberg, welcome to "Modern Love."
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
很高兴来到这里。
Happy to be here.
有点紧张来到这里。
A little nervous to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Happy to be here.
一点不紧张。
No nerves whatsoever.
我们就是随便聊聊。
We're just chatting.
乔，你拍的电影是关于感情中的灰色地带，那些混乱的、不舒服的、复杂的、真实的东西。
Joe, you make movies about the gray areas of relationships, the messy stuff, the uncomfortable stuff, the complicated stuff, the real stuff.
我想问你，混乱有什么让你这么感兴趣？
I want to ask you, what is it about mess that is so interesting to you?
我觉得从小我就觉得电影能让我在这个世界上不那么孤单，或者让我和陌生人以某种方式产生联系，而总是那些奇怪的、复杂的、混乱的东西让我觉得最有影响力。
I think that from a young age, I always felt that movies had the power to make me feel less alone in the world, or maybe connected to strangers in particular ways, and it was always the weird, complicated, messy stuff that I felt was most impactful.
我喜欢看电影里角色说出或做出一些我以为只有我自己才会有的想法或行为。
I love seeing a movie where the characters say or do something that I thought I was the only person in the world who had that thought.
而且我觉得，面对生活中的混乱，有时候你会看着自己的生活，心想：“天哪，这简直是一团糟。”
And I think also with the mess, sometimes you can look at your own life and just think, "Oh my God, this is a disaster.
我怎么就……
How did I..."
但是——
But-
哦，乔，我其实从来没这么想过。
Oh, I've never done that, Joe, actually.
我没有。
I haven't.
在电影里看到这些，会给人一种力量。
There's power seeing it in a movie.
会有一种感觉：“哦，好吧，这也许不太好，但我跟人类是相连的。”
There's this feeling of, "Oh, okay, this might not be great, but I'm connected to humanity.
我与宇宙合一，而且我不是唯一一个遇到过这种情况或是以这种方式搞砸事情的人。
I'm one with the universe, and I'm not the only person who's dealt with this situation or who has screwed something up in this particular way."
所以我觉得，通过展现真实并深入那些混乱，从创作者的角度来看，这仍然是一种伸出手去、渴望与人连接的表达。
And so I think by being real and trying to dive into the mess, there's some sense of reaching out and a desire to connect still from the other side, from the maker side.
我们其实都陷在这团泥沼里。
We're kind of all in this muck together.
我能问你一个问题吗？你觉得你的人际关系比一般人更混乱吗？
Can I ask you, do you feel like you have messier relationships than the average person?
如果从一到混乱打分，你是不是特别高？
On a scale of one to mess, are you really high up there?
不，我不这么认为。
No, I don't think so.
嗯，我娶了我第一次接吻和第一次发生关系的那个人。
Well, I married the person I lost my virginity to and had my first kiss with.
哇。
Wow.
所以从18岁到38岁，我一直在一段感情里。
So from the age of 18 to 38, I was in one single relationship.
所以我不觉得自己乱，也不喜欢乱的感情，我只有离婚后的感情可以看。
So I don't think I'm messy or drawn to messy relationships, and I only have my post-divorce relationships to look at.
我会说自己比较戏剧化，而不是乱，我更容易被高戏剧性的感情吸引，而不是乱的。
I would say I'm dramatic, not messy, and I'm drawn to high drama relationships more than messy.
我会觉得不舒服——
I get uncomfortable-
你能帮我区分一下吗？
Can you kind of distinguish for me?
我觉得对我来说，乱就是你的破事都摊在大街上，然后——我不知道。
I think to me, messy is your shit's all out on the street and- I don't know.
不是说我没能力那样。
Not that I'm incapable of it.
但我确实会退缩，我喜欢生活井井有条，而不是乱糟糟的，什么都忘了，还跟人重复聊天，半夜给人打电话。
But I do cringe and tend to like my life tidy-ish, as opposed to so sloppy that it's all over the place, and I'm forgetting what's going on, and I'm re-having conversations with people, calling people in the middle of the night.
我太尊重边界之类的东西了。
I'm too respectful of- ... boundaries and stuff.
而且我的生活太正常了。
And my life is too normalized.
我有孩子。
I have kids.
大部分时间我都在过正常的学校生活，早上起床，做午餐，去当实地考察的监护人什么的。
Half the time I'm on a regular school day, waking up in the morning, making lunches, and going to chaperone field trips and stuff.
我不能把太多混乱带进那种生活。
I can't drag too much mess into that.
但戏剧性，另一方面，我觉得是情感上的高风险。
But drama, on the other hand, I think is high emotional stakes.
即使它干净整洁，也充满了不安或挑战权力的东西……
Even if it's clean and neat, it's roiling with unsettled discomfort or something, or challenges to power within...
我不知道。
I don't know.
那种感觉有生命力、有戏剧性、又刺激又疯狂的东西。
Something that feels alive and dramatic and exciting and crazy.
我笑了，因为我完全同意。
I am laughing because I totally agree.
我喜欢这种对混乱和戏剧性的区分。
I like this distinction between messiness and drama.
我要用这两个尺度来说，你拍了这部新电影，叫《太阳永不落》。
I am going to use those two scales to say, you made this new movie, it's called "The Sun Never Sets."
对我来说，这部电影里的人际关系既相当混乱，又充满戏剧性。
To me, this movie, the relationships in the movie, are both quite messy and quite high drama.
你同意吗？
Would you agree?
是的。
Yes.
好的，太好了。
Okay, wonderful.
这部电影记录了我人生中一段既戏剧化又混乱的时期，可以这么说。
This movie chronicles a dramatic and messy period of my life, I would say.
你说你的……
And you said your...
这就是问题所在。
This is the question.
我们也会聊到电影本身，但我想知道是什么激发了你，你生活中发生了什么，促使你拍了这部电影？
We'll get into the film, too, but I want to know what inspired, what was happening in your life that inspired this film?
我当时正在经历分手，而且我觉得自己对这段关系的破裂负有很大责任。
I was going through a breakup, and I felt that I was highly responsible for the reason the relationship was falling apart.
我做的那些举动，还有我那些本意是成熟、充满爱意和慷慨的想法，实际上却是操控性的、不健康的，最终对我来说像噩梦一样。
That moves that I made and thoughts that I had that were intended to be mature and loving and generous were, in fact, manipulative, unhealthy, and ultimately nightmarish for me.
但既有点好笑，又像噩梦。
But in a funny way, but also in a nightmarish way.
我当时在和一个比我小11岁的人约会，我表现得特别像那种‘我懂这个世界，让我来告诉你什么对你最好’的人。
And I just think that I was dating a younger person, 11 years younger than me, and I was very Mr. I Know The World And Let Me Help You Figure Out What's Best For You.
直到突然一切都崩塌了，我才意识到，天哪，首先我什么都不懂，其次这一切愚蠢的闹剧、混乱和麻烦都是我造成的。
Until suddenly it all came crashing down around me, and then I was like, "Oh, my God, first of all, I don't know anything, and second of all, I caused all this stupid drama and messiness and chaos."
所以我当时就——
And so I was-
然后我就需要拍一部电影来讲述这件事。
And I need to make a movie about it.
是的，我就是觉得，就是它了。
Yeah, I just felt like, here it is.
这正是我所着迷的那种东西，我觉得我能从中做出一些能触动人心、与人产生共鸣的作品。
This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm drawn to, and I think I can make something here that reaches people and connects with people.
让我们从这段与年轻女性的关系之前开始说起——
Let's start even before this relationship with the younger woman-
好的。
Sure
……来谈谈，这是在你离婚之后。
... and talk about, this was after your divorce.
你是什么时候遇到你后来的妻子的？你之前已经说过你是和她第一次发生关系的，但我提前剧透了。
When did you meet the woman who would become your wife, and who you already said you lost your virginity to, but I'm spoiling it.
你是什么时候、怎么遇到这个人的？
When and how did you meet this person?
我们是在伊利诺伊州卡本代尔的南伊利诺伊大学电影学院大一那年认识的。
We met freshman year of film school in Carbondale, Illinois, Southern Illinois University.
所以电影学院毕业后，我们搬到了芝加哥，我当时觉得自己准备好开始发展事业了，就想着，好吧，这段关系就这么继续下去吧。
So then when we finished film school, we moved to Chicago, and I guess I was ready to get my career going, and I sort of just thought, "Okay, this relationship is just going to exist."
然后她开始说，我们在一起已经五年了。
And she started to say, "We've been together for five years at this point.
这到底是怎么回事？
What's up here?"
就是那种，下一步该怎么办的意思？
Like, what's the next step kind of thing?
我当时有点像是，我不知道。
And I was kind of like, "I don't know.
我们还这么年轻，对吧？
We're so young, right?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我们真的要结婚，做那些事吗？
Are we really going to get married and do all of that stuff?"
但到了关系第六年、第七年的时候，感觉就像我们已经结婚了。
But at some point, like six years, seven years into the relationship, it was like, it almost feels that we're married.
我们开始——
We had started-
一起创作，去电影节，我们就是一对很稳定的情侣。
... making work together and going to film festivals, and we just were a solid couple.
所以我们在2007年夏天结婚了。
And so we got married in the summer of 2007.
那时我25岁。
I was 25 years old.
哇。
Wow.
真年轻。
Young.
确实很年轻，但那时我们已经在一起七年了。
And totally young, but also seven years into a relationship.
那感觉真的很好。
It was really great.
我就是很喜欢结婚的状态。
I just loved being married.
我觉得那很酷。
I thought it was very cool.
我们结婚几年后，我儿子才出生。
We were married for a couple of years before my son was born.
那之后，又开启了非常美好和精彩的新篇章。
Then that was a really beautiful and awesome new chapter.
然后四年半之后，我的女儿出生了。
And then my daughter was born four and a half years after that.
我们俩的事业都发展得很好。
Our careers were both going very well.
确实，这挺多的。
It's a lot, yeah.
但在这一切背后，我内心有太多关于我是谁、我会变成什么样的问题。
But underneath it, there was, on my side, too many questions about who I was and who I was becoming-
嗯？
Huh
……以至于我常常想：‘天哪，我从来都没真正了解过自己。’
... in a way that I was just like, "Man, I just never got to know myself."
我从来没有过一段时期——
I just never had a period of time-
……去约会、去尝试和探索、去了解自己。
... where I dated people, where I experimented and explored, where I learned anything about myself.
而我当时在拍这些爱情电影，我就在想，'哇，我这辈子只谈过一次恋爱。'
And I was making these relationship movies, and I was sort of like, "Whoa, I've only ever been in one relationship."
我想说清楚，这是你的初恋。
And I want to be clear, this was your first.
她是你的第一个女朋友。
She was your first girlfriend.
她是你的第一个——
She was your first-
第一个也是唯一一个。
First and only.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yes.
所以你们最终还是离婚了。
So you do end up getting a divorce.
你们离婚的时候在一起多久了？
And how long had you been together when you divorced?
多少年？
How many years?
我们99年认识的，2019年正式法律上离婚的。
We met in '99, and we got officially, legally divorced in 2019.
所以总共二十年。
So it was 20 years all told.
跟我说说，你们到底是怎么结束的，怎么就离婚了？
Tell me how it actually ended, and you got divorced.
我们之间从来不缺爱，或者类似的问题。
There was never a lack of love or anything like that.
现在也依然如此。
There still isn't.
我们住得就隔一个街区，离婚也不是因为关系变得很糟糕什么的，但在关系快结束的时候，我们确实决定开放婚姻，而就在那段时间，我觉得很多事情最终被彻底动摇了。
We live a block away from each other, and we didn't get divorced because our relationship became horrible or anything like that, but we did decide to open our marriage towards the tail end of it, and during that period of time, I just think it finally destabilized a lot of things.
另外，我们之前有很多问题一直没解决，对我来说，我们已经精疲力尽了，那个夏天，我们就做了决定。
The other thing that was going on was that we had failed to solve a lot of issues we had experienced, and to me, we ran out of steam, and that summer, we just decided.
整个过程没什么戏剧性，也不像什么大吵大闹。
It was not full of drama or anything like that.
奇怪的是，整个过程很平静，也很快。
It was weirdly kind of quiet and quick.
对我来说，感觉就像两个拳击手，终场铃响了，谁也没把谁打倒，没有明确的赢家。
And, to me, it just felt, yeah, like two boxers who the final bell rings, and neither has knocked the other one out, and there's no clear winner or anything like that.
然后我们就各自回到角落，一屁股坐下，已经没有力气再打了。
And we just went to our corners and plopped down, and the fight had left us.
我觉得如果我们还有力气打下去，我们就不会离婚。
And I think had we had more fight in us, we would've stayed married.
我非常爱她。
I love her so much.
我是和她一起长大的。
I grew up with her.
我觉得她是最好的。
I think she is the best.
她是个了不起的母亲，出色的伴侣，也是优秀的电影人和艺术家。
An awesome mother, an amazing partner, a great filmmaker and artist.
她是最酷的——但20年过去了，我就在想，我们怎么还在反复面对同样的问题？
She is the coolest- But after 20 years, I just was like, how are we still cycling through these same issues?
然后突然之间，悄无声息地，我觉得我们从外人眼中的完美夫妻变成了离婚。
And then suddenly all at once with no fanfare, I think we went from looking like the perfect couple from the outside to divorced.
这很奇怪。
It was very weird.
现在回想起来，几乎有点神秘。
Almost mysterious as I think about it now.
就这么发生了，而且发生得很快。
That it just happened, and then it happened fast.
离婚，我不知道，就这样过去了……
The divorce, I don't know, goes through...
该怎么说呢？
What's the right word?
你离婚了。
You get divorced.
你正进入人生的新阶段。
You're entering into this new stage of your life.
这是你到目前为止第一段、最长也是唯一的一段感情。
This was your first and longest and only relationship up to this point.
当你考虑未来，单身生活，你害怕什么，又期待什么？
When you contemplate what lies ahead of you, single life, what are you scared of, and what are you looking forward to?
我想两方面都有吧。
I assume there's both sides here.
离婚时我的感受是，我再也不想结婚了。
What I felt when we got divorced was, I never want to get married again.
我已经试过了。
I've tried that.
而且我觉得，如果我和克里斯都搞不定这件事，那我和任何人都搞不定。
And I felt that if Chris and I could not figure that out, I could not figure that out with anybody.
嗯。
Huh.
不是说我不想谈恋爱，而是我不想再走法律结婚的程序，不想让国家以那种方式介入我的生活。
Not that I didn't want to have relationships, but I did not want to go through the process of legally getting married and involving the state in my life in that way.
当然。
Sure.
或者可能再次离婚。
Or potentially getting divorced again.
而且我想，我不想再生孩子了。
And I thought, I don't want to have more kids.
我已经有两个孩子了。
I have two kids.
他们这辈子都需要我——
They're going to need me for the rest of their lives-
啊
Ah
即使他们长大了，我还是像现在需要父母一样需要他们。
... even as they get older, the way I need my parents in my life still.
我不想重新开始那个过程。
And I don't want to start that process over.
作为父亲，我已经走到了这一步，我想继续这段旅程，就像我们仍然结婚，就像我和克里斯不会再生孩子一样。
I've sort of come this far as a father, and I want to continue this journey as if we were still married and as if Chris and I weren't going to have more kids.
我不需要去和别人重新开始。
I don't need to go do that and start that with someone else.
所以那是我离婚后最强烈的两个感受。
So those were my two strongest post-divorce feelings.
我不想再结婚了。
I don't want to get married again.
我不想再生孩子了。
I don't want to have more kids.
那这些你有没有跟别人说出来过？
And was this something that you articulated out loud-
经常说。
Constantly
跟你的朋友，跟你的……好。
... to your friend, to your... Okay.
你一直在说这些。
You were saying this.
我身边没有人不清楚这些想法。
No one in my life was confused about those statements-
好。
Okay.
这些想法都是认真说出来的。
... being asserted meaningfully.
那是——
It was-
你的日记里就写着：“不再结婚，不再要孩子。”
Your journal's just, "No more marriage, no more kids."
一遍又一遍。
Over and over.
真的，我去约会的时候，第一次见面就会聊到这个。
Literally, I would go on dates, and that would be first date conversation.
“跟你说清楚，我不想再结婚，也不想再生孩子。”
"Just so you know, I don't want to get married again, and I don't want to have more kids.
“如果你想要这些，那我不是你要找的人。”
So if you do, I'm not your guy."
我们说的是不想要什么。
We're talking in the negative.
你不想结婚。
You don't want marriage.
你不想要孩子。
You don't want kids.
那段时间你约会，是想找什么样的对象呢？
What were you looking for in this period of dating?
我也不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得如果当时我能回答好这个问题，我的感情可能会更顺利一些。
I think I would've had better relationships if I had a good answer to that.
嗯。
Huh.
我觉得我那时候主要是根据自己不想要什么来定义这些关系的。
I think I was primarily defining these relationships around what I didn't want.
有意思。
Interesting.
而且完全不知道自己想要什么。
And had no idea what I wanted.
嗯。
Huh.
至于我真正想要的，我觉得大概是，等我看到的时候自然就知道了。
And what I did want, I guess my feeling was like, I'll know it when I see it, perhaps.
我自己也不清楚。
I don't even know.
那你看到的时候，你知道那就是你想要的吗？
And did you know when you saw it?
其实不太知道。
Not really.
我经常想，天哪，我都快四十了，而且我太了解自己了。
I thought constantly, "Oh, my gosh, I'm almost 40 years old, and I just know myself too well."
嗯。
Huh.
我太固执了，习惯也太固定了。
"I'm too inflexible, and I'm too set in my ways.
我现在是个成年人了。
I'm a grownup now."
我当时觉得自己特别死板。
And I felt so rigid.
我觉得自己特别——
I felt so-
嗯。
Huh
……中年了，而且就是有点烦躁，然后——……
... middle-aged and I just was kind of cranky and- ...
我也不知道。
I don't know.
我是个有趣的人。
I'm a fun person.
我喜欢约会。
I like going on dates.
并不是说我整天抱怨、苦大仇深的，但是——
It wasn't that I was just bitter and complaining all the time, but-
不是
No
……我内心深处有一根僵硬的棍子，不像年轻时那样灵活了。
... somewhere in me was a stiff rod that wasn't flexible the way-
嗯
Huh
……那是我年轻时刚结婚时的状态。
... it was when I was young and got into my marriage.
而且——
And-
你是说你觉得你自己中年了。
And you're saying you felt middle-aged.
你在和谁约会？
Who were you dating?
你和谁出去约会了？
Who were you going on dates with?
而且——
And-
是年纪大一些的吗？
Was it older?
你约会的人是跟你同龄的，还是比你小的，还是比你大的？
Were you dating people who were your age, younger, older?
那——
What was the-
各种组合都有。
All of those combinations.
但我觉得，年轻一点的女性对我说的“我不想再结婚”这句话，反应没那么大。
But I would say that younger women were much less put off by my, "I don't want to get married again.
“我也不想再生孩子了。”
I don't want to have more kids."
嗯。
Huh.
因为我觉得，我当时38岁。
Because I think, I was 38 at the time.
我觉得如果你38岁还没结婚，可能还想要孩子，你跟我约会一次就会想："好吧，哥们儿，谢谢不用了。"
And I think if you're 38 and you aren't married and you maybe want kids, you sit down on one date with me and go, "Okay, homeboy, no thank you."
嗯。
Huh.
但如果你29岁，你会想："嗯，是啊，我甚至不知道自己想不想结婚或要孩子。"
And if you're 29, you go, "Well, yeah, I don't even know if I want to get married or have kids."
所以自然而然地，我最后总是和更年轻的女性在一起，但我觉得那是因为我的底线对她们来说没那么重要。
So organically, I was ending up in relationships with younger women, but I think that's because my red lines were less a factor.
就是好玩。
It was just fun.
更容易进入那种关系，就像，未来是未来，这个人说他不想结婚或要孩子，但谁在乎呢？
Easier to slip into relationships where it was sort of like, well, the future is the future, and this guy says he doesn't want to get married or have kids, but who cares?
当然。
Sure.
现在，我们就是出去玩玩，然后——
Right now, we're just going to hang out and-
聚会
Party
……去吃顿好的，开心一下，再去看个电影首映。
... go to nice dinners and have fun and go to movie screenings.
那挺好的。
That's fine.
现在对我来说这就够了。
That's enough for me right now.
好的。
Okay.
我这么说，是带着同情心的，而且……
This is what I say with compassion and...
这有点老套了，对吧？
It is a bit of a cliché, right?
就像那个——
It's like the-
百分之百。
100%.
你有没有，咱们直说吧，就像那个——
And did you have, and let's just articulate it, it's like the-
好笑到极点的老套
Hilariously cliché
……年纪大的、离过婚的……对，好吧，就是这样。
... older, divorced... Yeah, okay, there we go.
百分之百。
100%.
就是这样。
There we go.
和年轻女人在一起，你对此有什么感觉吗？
With the younger woman, did you have feelings about that?
很明显你当时也意识到了这一点，对吧？
It's clear that that occurred to you, right?
我当然知道自己看起来有多可笑。
I absolutely understood how hilarious I looked.
一个40岁的男人，身边围着一群二十多岁的姑娘。
A 40-year-old guy running around with women in their 20s.
嗯。
Huh.
刚离婚。
Recently divorced.
我前妻在芝加哥电影圈也是个有头有脸的人物……
My ex-wife is also a big person in the Chicago film...
就像——
It's like-
……
...
我去哪儿都能感觉到自己不是无名小卒。
I didn't go places and sense that I was anonymous.
我去哪儿都觉得自己活脱脱就是个中年危机老套男，百分之百。
I went places and sensed I look like a midlife crisis cliché guy, 100%.
那感觉怎么样？
And how did that feel?
挺好的。
Fine.
真的吗？
Really?
完全没问题。
Totally fine.
对，管别人怎么想呢。
Yeah, fuck other people.
我当时就想，"这就是我的人生。
I was like, "This is my life.
我不会因为你觉得我逊就不过自己的生活。
I'm not going to live it because-
啊
Ah
……你觉得我很差劲。
... you think I'm lame."
我知道这很傻。
I know it's silly.
我知道这看起来很可笑，但之所以成为老套，是因为它是真实存在的。
I know it looks ridiculous, but the reason it's a cliché is it's a real thing.
你谈到了所有这些顾虑，我不知道，也许你在和年轻女性约会时可能有的犹豫，只是因为人生阶段不同，等等。
You're talking about all these kind of misgivings, I don't know, hesitancies perhaps you might have with dating a younger woman just because of the life stage, whatever.
但你仍然继续做了。
But you still continued to do it.
为什么？
And why?
你这边对风险和回报的权衡，还是觉得“年轻女性对我来说依然是最佳选择”。
The sort of risk-reward calibration on your end was still like, "Younger women are still the best match for me."
我只是好奇。
I'm just curious.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，跟你说实话，我的约会选择范围其实很有限。
Well, to be totally honest with you, I had a limited dating pool.
我不能打个响指，就有一个年龄合适、又对我感兴趣的人出现在我的生活里，让我可以说我是在拒绝那样的人，而去选择年轻女性。
I don't get to snap my fingers and have an age-appropriate, also interested in me person show up in my life in a way that I would say that I was turning people like that down to date younger women.
我明白你的意思了……好的。
I see what you... Okay.
我就是个离了婚的、有点老套笑话那种人，在芝加哥，我也没什么，随便吧。
I'm a divorced, kind of cliche joke guy in Chicago, and I don't, whatever.
我明白你的意思。
I hear what you mean.
而且，我还有两个孩子，他们的生活我参与很多，这也让我不太容易约会，因为我没有那么多自由和空闲时间，不像单身的人那样可以经常在工作日的晚上出去什么的。
And also, I have two kids whose lives I'm majorly involved in, which also makes me a little hard to date because I don't have a ton of freedom and free time like a single person to go out on weeknights all the time and whatever else.
我确实有一半时间像独立电影人那样生活，比较自由，像单身的人；另一半时间，我基本上就是个单亲全职爸爸。
I really am living half my time as a kind of independent filmmaker, sort of single free person, and the other half of my time, I'm living as a single stay-at-home dad, basically.
所以这种双重身份也限制了我的约会范围。
And so that dichotomy also limits my dating pool.
我也不是只和年轻女性约会，但离婚后我很快就有了女朋友。
And I'm not exclusively dating younger women, but I very quickly, post-divorce, have a girlfriend.
当然。
Sure.
电影里Dakota的角色是我离婚后两段关系的结合体。
Dakota's character in the movie is an amalgam of two post-divorce relationships.
明白了。
Got you.
她的性格特点什么的，基本上是根据我离婚后的两段重要感情经历来塑造的。
Her character traits and things are sort of built around my two big post-divorce relationships.
不过，我当时也在和一个洛杉矶的电影制作人约会，她比我小几岁，但年龄上还算接近。
But also, I was dating an LA filmmaker who was a few years younger than me, but sort of closer to my age.
但这个人想要结婚，组建自己的家庭。
But this was someone who wanted to get married and have a family of her own.
那些关系，即使开始了，过一段时间也会慢慢淡下来，因为很明显我不会更进一步，或者没有真正准备好往那个方向发展。
Those relationships, even if they got started, they tended to tail off after a period of time when it was clear that I wasn't going to go deeper or wasn't really available to move in that direction.
所以我觉得我最后就是和更年轻的女性约会了。
So I just feel like I ended up dating younger women.
我并不是刻意要这样，也不是只对年轻女性感兴趣，但是……
I was not on a mission to do that, nor was I exclusively interested in that, but...
我理解。
I appreciate that.
所以你开始和一个年轻女性约会，她快三十岁了。
So you start dating a younger woman, she's in her late 20s.
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是不是第一次约会你就直接说，'这是我的情况。'
Was this the kind of thing where first date you were like, "And here's my deal.
不结婚，不要孩子。'
No marriage, no kids."
你一开始就跟她说了这些吗？
Did you go through that whole spiel with her at the beginning?
她主动找我，我就想，'哦，这个人想跟我发生关系。'
So she sort of initiated with me in a way that I was like, "Oh, this person wants to hang out in a sexual way.
那挺让人兴奋的。'
That's exciting."
我们喝了杯酒，然后我跟她说，'我不搞一夫一妻制。'
And we got a drink, and I said to her, "I'm non-monogamous.
我不想结婚。
I don't want to get married.
我也不想要孩子。'
I don't want to have kids."
我基本上把话都说清楚了，就像是在说：‘这是你现在该赶紧抽身离开的大警告。’
I gave the whole basically like, "This is your big caution to walk away from this thing right now."
基本上就是，赶紧自救吧。
Like, save yourself, basically.
所以你就这么跟她说了。
So you say this to her.
她是什么反应？
She's like, what?
她怎么回应的？
How does she respond?
她说：‘好的。’
She said, "Okay.
我觉得非一夫一妻制是我能接受的。
I think that non-monogamy is something that I'm down with."
而且她也差不多是那种态度：‘我对结婚不太在意，而且我也不确定我想不想要孩子。’
And she also was kind of like, "I don't really care about getting married, and I don't know if I want to have kids.
所以这些都不是什么大问题。
So these aren't deal breakers.
这不会阻止我看看这段关系会怎么发展。
This is kind of not going to prevent me from seeing where this goes."
你听到这些是什么感觉？
And how did you feel hearing that?
我觉得，'哦，太好了。'
I felt like, "Oh, great.
有一扇门打开了，可以发展一段关系。
There's a doorway open to have a relationship."
我当然想谈恋爱。
I obviously want to be in relationships.
我喜欢谈恋爱。
I like it.
我觉得谈恋爱很棒。
I think they're great.
而且经历过一段非常棒、非常美好的二十年婚姻，我知道婚姻的力量有多大。
And having been in a really cool, awesome 20-year marriage, I know the power of them.
有一个伴侣，一起走过这个世界，你支持他，他也支持你，你们有共同的目标，不只是工作上的，还有生活上的，这会让你的生活变得非常有意义、非常有力量。
It structures your life in a really meaningful and powerful way to have a partner, to go through the world with someone who you've got their back and they've got your back, and you have mutual projects, and I don't just mean work projects, but life projects.
所以我既在寻找，也保持开放，但同时我也在说，我能走的路非常窄。
So I'm both looking for it and open to it, and then simultaneously, essentially being like, "The path that I can walk is razor thin."
如果你想和我在一起，那就像走钢丝一样，随时都可能掉下来。
If you want to be in a relationship with me, it's going to have a very tightrope energy to it that we could fall off of at any point, basically.
很悬。
Precarious.
完全同意。
Totally.
但她说，是的。
But she says, "Yeah."
就是那些事情。
Those things.
所以你开始——
So you begin to-
她很淡定。
She's chill.
她28岁，她说：“好吧，放松点。
She's 28 years old, and she's like, "Okay, relax.
没那么严重。”
It's not that big of a deal."
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
就是无所谓。
It's like, whatever.
她看着我说：“如果我们一起出去玩，睡几次，那也没关系。
She's looking at me and going like, "If we hang out and sleep together a couple of times, that's fine.
那跟我现在大部分约会生活差不多。”
That resembles most of my dating life right now."
我看着她，说：“让我提醒你一下五年后会发生什么。”
And I'm looking at her going, "Let me caution you about five years into the future."
差不多就是这种关系。
It's like that's sort of the dynamic.
她说：“兄弟，是啊。”
And she's like, "Bro, yeah."
没错。
Exactly.
放松点，哥们。
Chill out, man.
跟我们待在一起。
Stay with us.
33位总统。
33 presidents.
我凌晨四点半给总统打电话，他接了。
I called the president at 4:30 in the morning, and he answered.
在太空待了七十年。
Seven decades in space.
我们想看看下一颗星星之外有什么。
We want to see what's beyond the next star.
一千份消费者产品指南。
A thousand consumer product guides.
今天，我要测试七张床垫。
Today, I am testing seven mattresses.
六十个超级星期天。
60 super Sundays.
他们可能每年都是联盟里最强的队伍。
They were probably the best team in the league every single year.
五万三千五百个谜题。
53,500 puzzles.
我每天用不同的起始词。
I use a different starting word every day.
两万五千个食谱。
25,000 recipes.
我喜欢一锅出的菜，因为我不爱洗锅。
And I love a one-pan recipe because I don't love washing pans.
《纽约时报》。
The New York Times.
庆祝175年来帮助您理解世界，让每一天都过得充实。
Celebrating 175 years of helping you understand the world and make the most of each day.
立即订阅，享受特别优惠，请访问nytimes.com/subscribe。
Subscribe now for a special offer at nytimes.com/subscribe.
然后你们就开始见面了。
And so you begin seeing each other.
那事情是怎么发展的？
And how do things progress?
我很快就爱上了她。
I fell in love with her very quickly.
哇。
Wow.
进展很快。
It progressed fast.
对，我也不知道。
Yeah, I don't know.
就是发展得很快。
It moved fast.
我觉得在头六个月里，我真的就爱上了她。
It felt to me that over the course of the first six months, yeah, I just really fell in love with her.
我真的很喜欢她做的艺术。
I really liked the art that she made.
我特别喜欢她的整个能量和氛围，还有——
I loved her whole energy and vibe and-
……
...
但我就是一直在给她各种提醒。
but I just was, yeah, sending all these cautions the whole time.
我还跟她说，'我知道你说不想要孩子，但你可能会改变主意。'
And I also was saying to her, "I know you say you don't want to have kids, but you might change your mind."
我认识很多女性，到了35岁左右就彻底改变了想法。
I've known a lot of women who reached their mid-30s and hardcore changed their minds.
嗯。
Huh.
其中有些人已经结婚了，而且之前双方都同意不要孩子。
Some of them already in marriages where they had agreed they weren't going to have kids.
她们还是改变了主意。
They still changed their mind.
我基本上就是在说，'给自己一点余地，别把话说死，因为你不知道。'
I just was basically saying, "Give yourself some grace to not make a declarative statement about it, because you don't know.
你才28岁。'
You're only 28 years old."
但再说一遍，这有点居高临下。
But again, patronizing.
我的意思是，有点居高临下，有点像‘我比你更了解你的生活，所以……’
I mean, a little condescending and a little bit like, "Well, I know better about your own life than you do, so..."
嗯，确实有点居高临下。
Well, it is a little patronizing.
我想说，我这么说对你没有恶意，但就是居高临下。
I'm like, again, I say this with compassion towards you, it's patronizing just period.
我就直说了。
I'm just going to say that.
但有趣的是，你描述的这种处境，你正走在一条非常微妙的钢丝上，对吧？
But the thing that's interesting is you're describing, you're articulating this really interesting tightrope that you're on, right?
对，就是这样。
Yes, exactly.
你很快爱上了她，但同时又在把她推开。
You're falling in love with her very fast, but at the same time, you're kind of pushing her away.
你心里想的是："但别靠太近，因为我给不了你这些东西，而你可能会想要。"
You're like, "But don't get too close because I can't give these things to you, and you might want them."
我很好奇她对你处理事情的方式有什么反应。
I'm curious her response to the way you were handling things.
很沮丧。
Frustrated.
好的。
Okay.
这是对……的正常、健康的反应——
A normal, healthy response to-
当然。
Sure.
……对我所做的一切。
... whatever I was up to.
啊。
Ah.
对某人说“我爱你，我爱这段关系，但它肯定会结束”，这可不是什么好的氛围和能量。
It's not a great vibe and energy to say to somebody, "I love you, I love this relationship, and yet it's definitely going to end."
而且——
And-
那确实挺难受的。
That's rough
……
...
我不知道。
I don't know.
是啊，我就是没……
Yeah, I just was not...
但我也得说，我并不是在扮演一个角色。
But also, I have to say, I wasn't playing a character.
我的意思是，我真的觉得我需要建立防御机制。
I mean, I really do think I needed to build defense mechanisms.
但另一个老套的说法是，情感上不可用的男人有自己的气场和氛围，我觉得她当时就是既感到沮丧，又被吸引，还陷进去了——
But the other cliché is emotionally unavailable guys have their own energy and their own vibe, and I think she was stuck between being frustrated and then compelled and into-
完全同意
Totally
……进去了。
... it.
我们就在那儿跳着那支小舞。
And we were doing that little dance.
而且我真的很爱她，她能感觉到。
And I did love her so much, she could feel it.
我是说，我对她的爱不是假的。
I mean, I was not fake in love with her.
我是真心爱她的。
I was real in love with her.
这点我不怀疑。
I don't doubt that.
我现在也在想，好吧，我知道你说过你麻烦不多，但我觉得这可能会变得越来越有点麻烦。
I am thinking, too, now I'm like, okay, I know you said you're low mess, but this becomes, I think, increasingly potentially a little messy.
我的意思是，我只是在想——
I mean, I'm just thinking-
我没说我没有麻烦。
I didn't say I was no mess.
你说的是麻烦不多，但我觉得现在已经到了中等麻烦的程度了。
You said low mess, and I'm saying we're now getting into moderate mess.
我觉得，虽然戏剧性还是很高，但我很好奇，你和这个人之间还是非一夫一妻制吗？
I mean, I think, and the drama remains high, but I am curious, it's non-monogamous still between you and this person-
因为你们俩表面上都……
... since you're both ostensibly...
你们俩都在和别人约会吗？
Are you seeing other people, both of you?
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yes.
我想问一下，这种情况持续了多久？
I mean, how long did this go on for, I guess?
因为你之前又提到了走钢丝。
Because it does feel like you, again, said tightrope.
这种情况持续了多久？
How long did this go on for?
这段关系最终持续了四年。
This relationship ended up lasting four years.
四年。
Four years.
哇。
Wow.
在我们真正分手之前。
Before we broke up for real.
好的。
Okay.
好吧，那我们来谈谈那个所谓的转折点吧，虽然我知道不是立刻发生的。
Well, let's talk about the sort of breaking point as it were, even though it wasn't immediate, I know.
发生了什么？
What happened?
有一些极端的混乱情况，在电影里也有体现。
There was some extreme kind of messiness that is echoed in the film.
告诉我到底发生了什么。
Tell me what went down.
她当时还喜欢另一个男人——
There was another guy that she was into-
……我觉得那个人对我很有威胁。
... that I found to be very threatening.
嗯。
Huh.
在某种程度上——
In a way that-
对你们的关系。
To your connection.
是的，也对我个人。
Yes, and to me personally.
好的。
Okay.
那感觉就像宇宙中有某种力量在连接他们，而我们之间却没有。
Something about it made me feel almost like there was a force in the universe that was connecting them that she and I didn't have.
嗯。
Huh.
比如，当我和他们俩在一起时，那种能量太明显了，以至于我觉得自己像是在阻挡大自然的力量，或者类似的感觉。
Like, the energy when I was around the two of them was so palpable and obvious that I was like, "I think I'm actually standing in the way of mother nature," or something like that.
哇。
Whoa.
这两个人就应该在一起。
These two people need to be together.
那你们三个人会一起相处吗？
And you would chill, all three of you?
是的，我们是在芝加哥的电影和艺术圈认识的。
Yeah, we knew each other from the Chicago filmmaking and artistic community.
哇。
Whoa.
其实我认识他很久了，比认识她还要久得多。
And I had actually known him for a long time, a lot longer than I knew her.
哇，这真的很让人难受，因为你爱着这个人，看到你爱的人和另一个人之间有那种强烈的默契，感觉真的很不好。
Whoa, that's really intense, though, because you love this person, and that is not a great feeling to see a visceral connection between the person you love and another guy.
但同时，我又想，我得践行我自己说的话。
But at the same time, I was like, "I got to practice what I'm preaching.
我大概的意思是，如果他们俩之间的关系能通向一段真正的大感情，而没有那些繁琐的程序和障碍，我不能挡在中间。
This is kind of what I'm saying is, if that relationship between the two of them could present a pathway to a whole big real thing without all the red tape and barriers, I can't get in the way of it.
我得真实一点。
I've got to be real.
我得践行我在这些初次约会里宣扬的理念。
I got to live the coda that I'm sort of espousing on these first dates."
我不能说‘我们非一夫一妻，但他除外’。
I can't be like, "Let's be non-monogamous, except him."
不能是他。
Not him.
所以你看到他们之间在建立这种联系。
So you see them developing this connection.
那你的关系，你和这位女士的关系，是怎么反应的？
What's happening to your connection in response, your relationship with this woman?
哦，嫉妒和紧张是很大的性驱动力，而且——
Oh, well, jealousy and tension are big sexual drivers and-
当然
Sure
……这种动力，所以它带来了各种影响。
... motivating energy, so it was doing all kinds of things.
它让我们俩的情绪来回波动，起伏不定。
It was ping-ponging us all over the place.
有时候会引发争吵，有时候又会带来非常热烈的亲密时刻。
Sometimes it would lead to fights, other times, super hot sex.
我的意思是——
I mean-
……就是很复杂。
... it just was complicated.
非常非常复杂。
Very, very complicated.
哇。
Whoa.
所以就像这种断断续续的状态，你们在一起的时候，她又和他在一起，可能嫉妒会爆发，但之后又会……
So it's like this attenuated thing Where you're spending time together, and then she's spending time with him, and maybe the jealousy will flare, but then it'll...
你们俩有没有因为这种情况闹到不可收拾的地步？
Was there a breaking point for you two with this situation?
嗯，他有女朋友。
Well, he had a girlfriend.
天哪，那个男的有女朋友？
Oh my God, the other guy had a girlfriend?
对，所以他们不是……
Yeah, so they weren't-
你们芝加哥的人真是女朋友一大堆啊。
Y'all in Chicago are really having lots of girlfriends.
所以，这里有个障碍。
So, there was a block.
他们之间的感情是真的……
Their connection was real-
啊
Ah
但他们没法发展那段感情。
... but they couldn't explore that connection.
他有女朋友，而且他们是一对一的。
He had a girlfriend, and they were monogamous.
哎呀，天哪。
Oh, brother.
有意思。
Interesting.
所以，真正的转折点，也就是第一件棘手的事，发生在他们真的在一起之后。她告诉了我，因为我和她是开放关系。
So, the breaking point came, the real first tough thing came when they did hook up, and she told me about it because she and I are in an open relationship.
但他是在出轨，然后我就不得不替他们保守秘密。
But he was cheating, and then I had to become the keeper of their secret.
然后我就变得特别矫情，心里特别难受，还找了一堆理由，就是不肯直接说“我嫉妒得要命”。
So then I basically become a baby about it, and my feelings are all hurt, and I'm coming up with a million reasons not to just say, "I'm extremely jealous."
所以我就说些像‘这让我很为难，因为我得替你保守秘密’之类的话，等等等等。
So, I'm saying things like, "This puts me in a really uncomfortable place because I have to protect your secret," and blah, blah, blah.
但其实我只是在回避说‘唉，你真的把我摔得很惨’。
But really I'm just avoiding saying, "Ugh, you really body slammed me.
这让我很受伤。
This hurts.
这次真的伤到我了。”
This one hurts."
但话说回来，她也没做错什么。
But also, she didn't do anything wrong.
我只是需要不断提醒自己，不断自我反省，然后想：‘这个人，第一，她马上就告诉了我这件事。’
I just needed to check myself and catch myself constantly and go, "This is someone who, A, told you about it immediately."
‘第二，在我们的开放关系里，她是有权去探索这些的。’
"B, is allowed to explore this in our open relationship."
我当然也有权这么做。
I certainly was.
即使这让她嫉妒或者别的什么。
Even when it made her jealous or whatever else.
所以，这很复杂，因为我讨厌这样，而且我也不被允许讨厌。
So, it was just complicated because I hated it, and I also wasn't allowed to hate it.
而这一切，我只是回到你明确设定的界限。
And this whole, I'm just returning to the boundaries you'd so clearly set.
不结婚，不要孩子。
The no marriage, the no kids.
在这一点上，是的，你对这些界限感觉如何？
At this point, yeah, how were you feeling on those boundaries?
因为现在一切都在变化中，因为你——
Because everything's sort of in flux right now, because you're-
……感觉真的很糟糕。
... feeling really bad.
这些界限是怎么回事？
What's up with those boundaries?
事情是这样的。
Here's what's up.
奇怪的是……她没有避孕。
Weirdly- ... she's not on birth control.
好的。
Okay.
我们发生了无保护性行为。
We are having unprotected sex.
所以，在这整个期间，她怀孕的可能性是非常真实的。
So, all through this period, there is the very real possibility that she gets pregnant.
我们不是——
We're not-
天哪，乔，你在干什么？
Oh my God, Joe, what are you doing?
我活在我的虚伪之中，就这样吧。
I'm existing in my hypocrisy and whatever.
但问题是，我们俩谁都不想——我觉得我们并没有期待发生什么事。
But the thing is, neither of us wanted to get-- I don't think we were hoping something happened.
我们真的没打算怀孕。
We really were not trying to get pregnant.
然后还有，我前妻和她新丈夫有了个孩子。
And then also, my ex-wife has a kid with her new husband.
哦。
Huh.
大概在2022年左右，那时候我和我女朋友在一起，我的心情很复杂，一方面我很庆幸自己没有孩子，另一方面看着他们又有了孩子。
In 2022 or something, while I'm in this relationship with my girlfriend, and my feeling is split between, I'm so glad I don't have a baby, watching them have a baby again.
同时也很嫉妒，因为那真的是世界上最美好的事情。
And then also jealousy, because it's the most incredible thing in the world.
所以，我去他们家接孩子，或者有时候我们一起过节什么的。
So, I'm going over to their house to pick up my kids or, we do holidays together sometimes and stuff.
然后我就看到那个新出生的小家伙，我心里就想，'天哪，老兄。
And I'm just seeing this new little human, and I'm just like, "Fuck, man.
也许我真的想再来一次。
Maybe I do want to do that again."
我不知道，那感觉太好了。
I don't know, it's the best.
然后我又觉得，我的孩子们在长大，越来越独立了。
And then I'm also like, my kids are getting older, becoming more autonomous.
我重新有了很多自己的时间。
I'm getting a lot of my time back.
我又开始工作了。
I'm starting to work again.
所以我处于两种状态之间：一方面想再来一次，另一方面又永远不想……
So, I'm on both of these sides of, I would do it again, and also I never...
你的界限似乎变得更灵活、更开放了。
Your boundaries are becoming more flexible, more porous, it seems like.
百分之百，而且既让人困惑又感到迷茫。
100%, and confusing and confused.
嗯。
Huh.
所以，跳到2024年，2024年底。
So, jump to 2024, late 2024.
好的。
Sure.
我正在拍一部电影，然后我打电话给她——
I'm in production on a movie, and I call her-
然后我说：“嘿，怎么了？
... and I'm like, "Hey, what's up?
我要不要来你家？
Should I come over to your house?
我们刚拍完电影。”
We've just wrapped the movie."
然后她说：“我有件事要跟你谈谈。”
And she's like, "I need to talk to you about something."
她告诉我：“我在酒吧遇到了他。
And she tells me, "I met up with him at a bar.
我发现他和他女朋友分手了，然后我们发生了关系。”
I discovered he and his girlfriend are broken up, and we had sex."
我当时就想：“靠。”
And I'm like, "Fuck."
我整个人都崩溃了。
And I just totally freak out.
我就说：“好吧，那我们到此为止。
And I'm like, "Okay, well, that's the end of us.
我不想继续了。”
I don't want to do this."
不。
No.
“我受不了这个。”
"I can't hang with this.
如果事情就是这样，那就随它去吧。
If that's what's up, then go with God.
我基本上就退出了。
I'm out, basically."
我当时整个人都崩溃了。
And I just was decimated.
接下来的两周我完全卧床不起。
I just spent the next two weeks flat on my back.
哇。
Wow.
什么都不吃。
Just not eating.
整个人像泄了气一样，真是的。
Just totally wind knocked out of my sails, like damn.
而且我也觉得这一切都是我自找的。
And I also felt like I brought this all on myself.
我正想说这个呢。
I was just going to say just this.
我真是个傻逼。
I'm such a fucking idiot.
为什么，你这个白痴？
Why, you moron?
为什么？
Why?
唉。
Ugh.
所以有一段时间我没跟她说话，整个人都崩溃了。
And so for a period of time, I wasn't talking to her, and I was just full on busted.
后来我们又重新开始聊天，一起散步，她说：“我爱你。
And then we started talking again, and we went on a walk, and she was like, "I love you.
我爱上你了，但同时，我们也是开放关系。”
I'm in love with you, but also, we're in an open relationship.
你知道我喜欢他。
You know I like him.
我喜欢他好几年了。
I have for years."
然后我就说：“我知道。”
And I'm like, "I know."
就在那次谈话中，我突然意识到：“我不想失去她。
And it was just during this conversation that I was like, "I don't want to lose her.
我不想失去这段感情。”
I don't want to lose this relationship."
我们在这段关系上投入了四年，那时候已经三年半了。
Four years we've put into this thing, three and a half years at that point.
我不想再和别人重新开始。
I don't want to start over again with somebody else.
我真的不想。
I don't.
就在那时，我说：“我们结婚吧，然后生个孩子。”
And that is when I was like "Let's get married and let's just have a kid.
我改变主意了。
I changed my mind.
是我改变的主意。
I'm the one who changed my mind.
我一直说你会改变主意，但我想要你。
I spent this whole time saying you would change your mind, and I want you.
我想继续这段关系。”
I want to be in this relationship."
你是在公园散步时说的吗？
You said that on this walk in the park?
接下来的一周，我们打了很长时间的电话，聊了很久，我完全把水搅浑了，彻底变成了自己的对立面，来了个180度大转弯，突然我就说：“搬来和我一起住吧。”
Just over the next week of long phone calls with her and long conversations, I just completely muddied the waters and just became a total hypocrite to myself, 180 full-on swing, and suddenly I was like, "Move in with me.
等你的租约到期——
When your lease expires-
哇。
Wow
……就搬来和我还有孩子们一起住吧。
... just move in with me and the kids.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
我想和你在一起。
I want to be with you.
我想维持这段关系。
I want to be in this relationship.
我们就这样吧。
Let's do it."
乔，哇。
Joe, wow.
这完全是180度大转弯啊——
That is a complete reversal of the-
百分之百。
100%.
当时真的很困惑。
It was so confusing.
那你当时觉得这说得通吗？
And did it make sense to you at the time?
我只是觉得我需要被震醒，从我自己给自己设的那种停滞状态里走出来。
I just think that I needed to be shocked out of whatever holding pattern I had placed my life in.
不管我离婚后给自己设了哪些界限——
Whatever boundaries I had-
嗯？
Huh
突然之间全都被打破了，我看着自己的未来，心想：'我在干什么？'
... set around myself post-divorce, suddenly they just all got obliterated, and I looked at my future and went, "What am I doing?
如果我的感情生活里，我只会进入那些充满我不想要的界限和障碍的关系，而且唯一能推进的关系都是那些女人能接受我所有不想要的东西，但我自己都不知道我想要什么，那我的爱情生活还能变成什么样？
What is my love life going to look like if all I'm doing is getting into relationships where I just have all these boundaries and barriers around what I don't want, and the only relationships that are moving forward are the ones where the women are okay with all the things I don't want, but I don't know what I want?"
然后，是的，我的生活就像被电击了一样，我突然清醒了，感觉自己因为自己的问题或者奇怪的障碍，正在放弃一段非常美好、非常好的感情。
And, yeah, my life just got zapped, and I suddenly had clarity, and a feeling that I was throwing away a really beautiful, good relationship because of my own issues or my own weird hurdles.
她听到这些，从一开始你们的关系就定下了基本规则——
And she's hearing this, having the ground rules of your relationship from the start-
不结婚，不要孩子，现在你却说：“搬来和我一起住吧。”
... being no marriage, no kids, and now you're saying, "Move in with me.
我们结婚吧。
Let's get married.
我们要个孩子吧。”
Let's have a kid."
她是怎么接受这件事的？
How is she receiving this?
她说：“我不相信你。”
She's saying, "I don't believe you.
你疯了。”
You're out of your mind.
你这么说只是因为你嫉妒了。
You're just saying this because you're jealous.
你这么说只是想控制局面。
You're just saying this because you want control over the situation."
你相信自己说的话吗？
Did you believe you?
她不相信你，但你自己信了。
She doesn't believe you, but you did.
你当时就像——
You were like-
我现在依然相信。
I still believe it now.
是的。
Yes.
嗯。
Huh.
在突然感受到失去它的那一刻，这段关系的力量——
The power of the relationship f- in the sudden moment of feeling its loss-
……对我来说变得无比清晰，我不仅相信自己说的话，而且我渴望它。
... became crystal clear to me, and I not only believed what I was saying, I wanted it.
三年半以来，我一直一只脚进一只脚出，终于——
I finally, after three and a half years of having one foot in and one foot out-
……突然之间，我就像说：'我准备好全身心投入这件事了。'
... suddenly was like, "I'm ready to step full on into this thing."
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我是约翰·卡拉曼尼卡，《纽约时报》的评论家。
I'm John Caramanica, a critic at The New York Times.
我是乔·科斯卡雷利，《纽约时报》的文化记者。
And I'm Joe Coscarelli, a culture reporter at The Times.
我们一起主持Popcast，一个每周更新的流行文化聊天节目，我们会采访最著名的音乐人、演员、网络红人等等。
Together, we host Popcast, a weekly pop culture chat show where we speak to the biggest musicians, actors, internet celebrities, and more.
我们请过坏兔兔、奥利维亚·罗德里戈和安妮·海瑟薇。
We've had Bad Bunny, Olivia Rodrigo, and Anne Hathaway.
我们还举办过安德烈3000和埃里卡·巴杜的现场表演。
We've also hosted live performances with Andre 3000 and Erykah Badu.
而且，每次对话结束时我们都会吃点零食。
Plus, we end every conversation with a snack.
每周在YouTube上观看Popcast的新剧集，
Catch new episodes of Popcast every week on YouTube-
以及在任何你收听播客的地方。
... and anywhere you get your podcasts.
好，现在这很有趣，因为她就像说：“我不相信你。
Okay, and now this is interesting because she's like, "I don't believe you.
这是嫉妒。”
This is jealousy."
你就像说：“好吧，我相信我自己。
You're like, "Well, I believe me.
那就这么办吧。
Let's do this."
所以就是在这个时候，你决定要拍一部关于这一切的电影？
And it is at this point that you decide to make a movie about all of this?
是的。
Yes.
那真是……
That's...
两个月后，我就开始筹备一部关于这一切的电影了。
Two months later, I'm in pre-production on a movie about all of this.
好的。
Okay.
不过，我得把话说清楚。
Let me just be really clear, though.
当时到底发生了什么？
What was happening?
你拍这部电影的时候，你和这个女人之间到底是什么关系？
What was the deal between you and this woman at the time that you were making this movie?
她是不是已经分手了？
Was she off?
你们还在一起吗？
Were you together?
她是不是在和那个男的交往，而你们已经分手了？
Was she exploring with this guy and you were broken up?
当时的情况是怎样的？
What was the situation?
你肯定不敢相信。
You're not even going to believe it.
哦，不会吧。是什么？
Oh, no. What?
我当时不知道。
I didn't know.
我去了阿拉斯加，但我没有——
I left for Alaska, and I did not-
什么？
What?
……知道我们当时是什么情况。
... know what our situation was.
好的。
Okay.
我拍完电影回到芝加哥时，不知道我们会不会复合，还是再也见不到她了。
I did not know when I came back to Chicago after wrapping the film, whether she and I would get back together or whether I would never see her again.
我完全不知道。
I had no idea.
哇。
Wow.
这不仅仅是为了艺术效果什么的。
And that's not just for artistic flourish or something.
这其实是真实的...因为这就是为什么它有趣，显然。
This is actually the truth of... Because this is why it's interesting, obviously.
你拍的这部电影跟你的个人经历非常贴近，对吧？
You're making this movie that hews quite closely to your personal experience, right?
灵感来源于你刚才说的那些，那种混乱，所有这些乱七八糟的事情。
Inspired by just everything you've articulated, this sort of messy, all of this mess.
而电影总有结束的时候，对吧？
And movies have an end, right?
而且你的电影以结局出名，有点臭名昭著。
And your movie's kind of famously notorious.
它们不是那种干净利落的结局——
They're not neat, tidy endings-
但它们确实会结束。
... but they do end.
片尾字幕会滚动，对吧？
Credits do roll, right?
对。
Correct.
所以你在为一个局面写结局——
So you're writing the ending to a situation-
这个局面是活的，而且完全开放，是的。
That is live and wide open, yeah.
那你写的结局是理想化的，是你害怕的，还是你觉得现实的？
And so are you writing the ending that's aspirational, that you're scared of, that you think is realistic?
你怎么——
How do you-
所有这些都有。
All of those.
我真的觉得，我是不是在搞什么，在这里愿望成真——
I literally felt like, am I fucking around with something here where the wish fulfillment-
……会影响到真实的……
... is going to influence real...
我们提出了无数个结局，那个问题一直在我脑海里。
We pitched a million endings, and that question was always in my mind.
我该按我希望生活发展的方向来结束这部电影吗？
Should I end the film the way I want life to go?
我该按对电影最有利的方式来结束吗？
Should I end the film the way that's best for the movie?
我该按真实生活来结束吗？
Should I end the film based on real life?
我到底在讲哪个版本的故事？
Which version of this story am I telling?
这是自传性质的吗？
And is it autobiographical?
还是和我的生活保持距离？
Is it distanced from my life?
最后，我们选择了对电影最好的那个结局——
And ultimately, we went with an ending that was the best ending for the movie-
……和现实生活分开。
... separated from real life.
我对这个决定非常满意，我觉得那一直都会是正确的……
And I'm just very happy about that decision, and I feel that that was always going to be the right-
当然。
Sure
……选择，因为不管十年后、二十年后我的生活发生什么，我只想能看一部电影。
... move because no matter what's going on in my life 10 years from now, 20 years from now, I just want to be able to watch a movie.
所以你拍完电影，杀青了，然后回到芝加哥。
So you make the movie, you wrap the movie, and you come back to Chicago.
你们之前一直没联系？
And you hadn't been talking?
你们之前一直没联系。
You hadn't been talking.
我们确实一直没联系。
We had not been talking.
我去了阿拉斯加，我们之间完全没有联系。
I left for Alaska, and there was zero communication-
哇。
Wow.
完全断联了。
It was full no contact
整整六个星期。
... for six weeks.
是的。
Yes.
然后我在公园里碰见一个共同的朋友，他在遛狗，他问：“嘿，阿拉斯加怎么样？”
And I run into a mutual friend in the park who's walking his dog, and he's like, "Hey, how was Alaska?"
我正跟他聊着近况，他问：“你和她怎么样了？”
And I'm catching him up, and he's like, "What's up with you and her?"
我说：“我不知道。”
And I was like, "I don't know.
我还没跟她说过话。
I haven't talked to her."
他说：“哦，那天我在海滩碰到她，她和他在一起，看起来像一对情侣。”
And he was like, "Well, I ran into her at the beach the other day, and she was with him, and they looked like a couple to me."
我就想：“好吧，那这就是答案了。”
And I was like, "Okay, well, there's my answer."
是的，他们在我去阿拉斯加的时候就在一起了，等我回到家，他们已经正式交往了。
And yeah, they had gotten together while I was in Alaska and were fully in a relationship by the time I got home.
那太糟糕了。
That sucks.
那太糟糕了。
That sucks.
那你跟她谈了吗？
And did you talk?
当然，这是听说的，那你有没有跟她谈过？
Of course, this was secondhand, so did you talk to her?
那他们是一对一的关系吗？
And were they monogamous?
这确实很让人崩溃，而且，就像我们说的，这其实也是你当初想要的，对吧？
It's devastating, and then also, as we've said, this is, again, this is sort of what you said you wanted, right?
我知道。
I know.
比如一个更年轻的人发现这个——
Like a younger person finding this-
没错。
Exactly.
我在这里不是受害者。
I'm no victim here.
我一直都觉得，包括现在也是，这是我自作自受。
I really felt and do feel this whole time like I did this to myself.
那你后悔吗？
And do you regret it?
你现在知道了这些，还后悔当初设下那些界限吗？
Do you regret putting up those boundaries at the beginning, knowing what you know now?
我觉得我那时候对自己的态度并不积极，也不健康。
I don't think that I was moving through life with a very positive or healthy attitude towards myself.
或者也许是不诚实，对。
Or maybe honest, yeah.
那现在是什么情况？
So what's happening now?
现在是什么——
What's the-
……状况？
... situation?
嗯，奇怪的是——
Well, strangely-
哦，不。
Oh, no.
电话——不。
... the phone-- No.
好的。
Okay.
挺好的。
It's good.
就是——
It's-
好的，挺好的。
Okay, it's good.
好的。
Okay.
我当时在纽约放映我的电影，在酒店大堂。
I was in New York screening a film of mine, and I was at the hotel lobby.
我退了房，然后有航班。
I checked out of the hotel, and I had a flight.
我的电话响了，是她打来的。
My phone rang, and it was her.
她说：‘嘿，我都不知道为什么要给你打电话，但我一直很想你，也想我们之间的事。’那时他们已经分手了。
She was like, "Hey, I don't even know why I'm calling you, but I've been thinking about you a lot and us a lot," and they had broken up.
我不知道。
I did not know.
没人告诉我。
No one told me.
他们已经分手了——
They had broken up-
等等，她和那个男的——哦。
Wait, she and the guy that she-- Oh.
他们六个星期前就分手了，没人告诉我——我们有很多共同的朋友，我觉得好笑的是，每个人都好像——
They had broken up six weeks earlier, and no one told-- We have so many mutual friends, and it's so funny to me that everybody was like-
其实，没人告诉你是好事。
Actually, it's better that no one told you.
我知道。
I know.
我觉得这样可能更好。
I think that's probably better.
我知道。
I know.
我觉得这太搞笑了——
I think it's hilarious-
有道理。
Makes sense
……大家都说：“别告诉乔。”
... that everybody's like, "Don't tell Joe."
我也这么觉得。
I think so, too.
别让乔知道他们分手了。
Don't let Joe know they broke up.
所以我们聊了两个小时。
And so we talked for two hours.
整整一年没联系，突然就聊起来了，我当时就说：“我在纽约。
Just out of nowhere, after not talking for an entire year, and I was like, "I'm in New York.
我正要去洛杉矶。
I'm on my way to LA.
一周后我就回家了。
I'll be home in a week.
你想联系一下吗？”
Do you want to touch base?"
她说，好的。
And she said, yeah.
然后我们一起去散了很久的步。
And then we went on a long walk.
我哭了。
I cried.
我现在说起来可能都会哭。
I might cry now talking about it.
那一年积压的紧张情绪一下子释放了。
It relieved so much built-up tension from that year.
所以那真的很健康、很美好，对我来说真的很治愈、很棒。
And so it was so healthy and nice, really healing and great for me.
我就觉得那天晚上睡得比过去一年都好。
I just feel like I slept better that night than I had in a year.
然后我们之间的关系就开启了新的篇章，现在我们可以做朋友，互相爱着对方。
And then it just kind of began a nice new iteration of our relationship, where we can just be friends now, love each other.
她现在在芝加哥做一个新项目。
She's doing a new project in Chicago right now.
我一直在帮她处理那个项目的一部分。
I've been helping her out with one component of that project.
感觉真好。
It's so nice.
啊。
Ah.
真的很棒。
Really nice.
拍这部电影有没有让你对自己有什么新的认识，或者——
Did making this movie help you figure something out about yourself or-
哦，当然有。
Oh, yeah.
太有了。
Big time.
跟我说说。
Tell me.
跟我说说。
Tell me.
我最大的收获是这样的。
Here are my big takeaways.
请讲。
Please.
我看到了自己的行为有多么具有操控性。
I got to see how manipulative my behavior was.
那并不慷慨。
It wasn't generous.
我并不是在照顾这些人。
I wasn't looking out for these people.
我是在保护自己。
I was protecting myself.
我试图掌控局面。
I was trying to have control of the situation.
我试图留一条后路，以防万一，免得自己受伤。
I was trying to keep one foot out the door just in case, save myself from getting hurt.
很多操控性、控制性的行为。
A lot of manipulative, controlling kinds of things.
我也没有太自责。
I'm not beating myself up too bad.
我觉得这是人之常情。
I think it's normal human stuff.
但现在的情况是，我18岁以来第一次真正单身。
But the thing I'm doing now is I'm finally single for the first time in my life since I was 18 years old.
哇。
Wow.
我已经熬过来了，而且真的很享受。
And I'm through the fire, and I'm really liking it.
嗯。
Huh.
我终于到了这个阶段，觉得“哦，这太好了。”
I'm finally at the stage where I'm like, "Oh, this is so great."
能自由自在地重新回到这个世界，感觉真好——
It's so nice to just be autonomously back out in the world-
……做自己的事情。
... doing my thing.
乔，你对未来有什么期望？
Joe, what do you hope for your future?
现在，你享受单身，独自一人的状态。
Right now, you're enjoying being single, being solo.
你接下来想要什么？
What do you want moving forward?
你有没有想过这些？
Have you forecasted that at all?
我只是觉得，对自己和未来最好的事情，就是现在守护好我的单身状态，然后再进入下一段感情。
I just have thought that the best thing that I could do for myself And my future is to guard my singleness right now and then get into my next relationship.
就像我需要喜欢我的单身，爱我的单身，然后当我非常喜欢一个人，愿意为了这段感情而放弃我喜欢的单身状态时，再进入下一段关系。
It's like I need to like my singleness, love my singleness, and then I need to get into a next relationship when I like someone so much that I'm willing to compromise my singleness that I like-
……为了能在一起。
... in order to be in a relationship.
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