开放式关系适合你吗？

我对这个选择特别好奇。

And I'm really curious about that choice.

你为什么会决定研究多元家庭的孩子呢？

Why did you decide you were interested in in studying children of polyamilies?

部分原因是，我在会议或其他场合分享研究结果时，

Partially, it was when I would talk about my research findings at conferences or other places.

总有人问：这对孩子有什么影响？

People would say, well, how does this impact the children?

没错。

Right.

大家一直问这个问题，我也开始想知道那些孩子过得怎么样。

People kept asking about it, and I wondered how are those kids doing?

他们现在到底怎么样了？

What is happening with them?

你是怎么开展这项研究的？

How did you set up the study?

一共有多少参与者？

How many participants were there?

这个数不太好算，因为有些人只参与了一次，有些人则多年来多次接受我的访谈。

I would say it's kind of hard to count because some people participated only once, and some people let me interview them multiple times across the years.

所以我觉得大概有213个人。

So I'm gonna say about 213 people.

真厉害。

Wow.

明白了。

Okay.

其中有33个孩子，当时18岁，现在有些人已经三十多岁了。

And about 33 of them were children 18, which are now some of them are in their thirties.

随着研究的进行，你多久和这些孩子聊一次？

How often did you talk to to these kids as the study went on?

毕竟这项研究已经持续了三十年。

Because it's it's now a thirty year long study.

有些人我跟他们聊过四五次。

Some of them I've spoken to four or five times.

有些人我只采访过一次。

Some of them I've only interviewed once.

有些人我甚至在正式采访前就和他们一起待了挺久，跟着他们去露营，观察那些多元家庭里孩子们是怎么形成自己小圈子的。

Some of them I hung out with quite a bit before I even interviewed them in their in that kind of participant observation phase of going to campouts and things with polyamorous families and kind of observing how the children would have their own little social structure.

你知道的，他们会聚在一起玩，然后跟大人说：

You know, they would play in a group and tell the adults, okay.

我们现在要过去那边了。

We're going over here now.

大人们就会回应：好。

And the adults would be like, okay.

二十分钟后回来。

Come back in twenty minutes.

而我呢，也会跟着那些孩子走，因为

Or And you'd be like, I'm going with those kids because

我在做研究。

I'm studying.

好的。

Okay.

没错。

Exactly.

你问了哪些问题？

What kinds of questions were you asking?

你当时好奇想知道什么呢？

What were you curious to know?

我会问他们各种各样的问题，比如拥有多位成年人在生活中是什么感觉，这些成年人平时怎么照顾他们，还有他们和同龄人相处得怎么样，这方面有没有遇到过什么问题。

I would ask them all sorts of different things, how it felt to have multiple, you know, multiple adults in their lives, what those adults did for them, how how kind of interacting with their peers, if it was ever an issue with that.

而且我总是会问他们三个特定的问题。

And I would all always ask them three different questions.

第一个问题是，他们觉得自己长大后会不会也实行多角恋？

One, did they think they would be polyamorous themselves when they grew up?

是的

Mhmm.

大多数人说，我不确定。

And most of them said, I'm not sure.

这要看我伴侣是谁，以及他们想要什么。

You know, kind of it depends on who my partner is and what they want.

还有一个问题是，如果可以选择，你会希望在另一个家庭长大吗？

One was, if you could choose, would you have chosen a different family to grow up in?

所有孩子都回答：不会。

And all of the children said, no.

他们从这个家庭中学到了很多，尽管有时候很难，而且有些事情他们可能不会在自己生活中复制。

They learned so much from this family, even though it was hard sometimes, and even though some of the things they maybe wouldn't replicate in their own lives.

对

Yeah.

这让我很清楚，这些孩子的需求得到了很好的满足。

It it really said to me that these kids had their needs very well met.

他们对关注、关爱、规律的需求，还有那些基本的吃穿住行，你懂的，这些全都被满足了。

That their need for attention, affection, structure, you know, all the and that's not even talking about the practical needs of food and shelter, you know, clothing.

那除了很多其他问题之外，你通常还会问第三个问题是什么？

And then what was the what was the third question you would always ask in addition to many other questions?

我总会问：你有没有特别想念的父母前任伴侣？就是你父母分手后，你特别想他们的那些人。

I would always ask, so are there any of your parents' partners that you really miss that, you know, your parents broke up with and you really miss them.

你总是问这个问题，感觉你好像对这个特别有想法。

And finally, one kid said, you know, you ask that all the time, and you seem like you have an agenda around that.

我确实会想念一些人。

I do miss people.

我会想念各种各样的人。

I miss all sorts of people.

父母的前任伴侣，排在我想念名单的最底下。

Very low down on the list are my parents' partners.

我当时就想，你说得对，我确实带着预设的偏见来的，总觉得父母分手、伴侣离开，对这些孩子影响一定很大。可孩子却说，这其实是你自己的想法。

And I was like, not only you are right, I totally had an agenda coming from the outside thinking, oh, this must be a big impact on these kids' lives, having parents' partners kind of leave when the parents break up and the kid was like, that's coming from you.

这想法挺有意思的。

That's not coming from Interesting.

那具体是怎样的呢？

Well, how

我知道。

I know.

这种情况普遍吗？

Was that sort of across the board?

孩子们确实会说父母分手了，伴侣离开了，他们也会难过，但那种深深的失落感，对前任伴侣的怀念，并不是普遍现象。

People were like, you know, they do leave and maybe I'm sad, but that sort of missing that deep missing of the partner was not so much a factor in general for these kids.

这让我挺意外的。

I'm surprised by that.

是的。

Yes.

部分原因是，父母们在养育孩子上投入了很多心思。

In part, because the parents put a lot of effort into having the children.

如果孩子和某个人建立了感情联系，那确实如此。

If the children were attached to someone Yeah.

这种关系可能比父母之间的浪漫关系持续得更久。

That relationship could outlast the romantic relationship between the parents.

我在这些家庭里看到过太多这样的情况了。

And I saw that so much in these families.

真正起关键作用的，是那些非浪漫的亲密关系。

It was the nonsexual relationships that made the biggest difference.

我想确认一下我有没有理解对，因为你刚才说的真的很有意思。

I wanna make sure that we understand because I I it's really interesting what you're saying.

我甚至希望有个流程图能帮我们理清，但这是个播客，主要靠声音传达。

And I almost I wish I had, like, a flowchart, but this is a podcast and largely nonvisual.

所以你能给我描述一下，这类多元家庭通常是怎么组织的吗？

So maybe you could describe for me, like, how are these polyamilies generally organized?

因为你提到的是非浪漫的伴侣关系。

Because you're saying nonsexual partners.

所以是两个亲生父母，然后呢？

So it's like two parents, biological parents, and then what?

每个父母都有自己的伴侣。

Each parent has their own partner.

你能给我讲讲这些多元关系家庭的结构吗？

Talk to me about the sort of structure of these polyamilies.

通常情况下，就是这对亲生父母在一起。

Frequently, there will be so it often is the biological parents

明白。

Sure.

他们俩是一起的。

Who are together.

很多刚进入多元恋爱关系的人，一开始都想着，就像我前任那样，我们希望能完全生活在一起。

And frequently, when they very first come to polyamorous relating, many of them are coming thinking, we want much like my partner, my ex did, we want to be all together in one relationship.

对。

Right.

很多人发现这种方式并不太管用。

Many people realize that doesn't work that well.

你可能对某人有好感，对方也对你有感觉，但这并不意味着他们会喜欢你的伴侣。

Like, you may be attracted to someone who may be attracted to you, but it doesn't mean they're attracted to your partner.

是的。

Yeah.

或者你以为总会是三个人在一起的关系，但事实上，我发现大多数人都是以两人一组的形式发生性关系。

Or that you are always having kind of a three person relationship that really what I find is that many people have their sexual relationships in dyads, like two person sexual relationship.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

但社交关系是通过一种方式连接起来的，多边恋者称之为‘关系网’。

But the social relationships are knit together in a way the polyamorous people call that a polycule.

嗯，对。

Uh-huh.

就像

Like

一个分子那样

a a molecule.

是的

Yeah.

只不过叫作多角关系网

Only a polycule.

多角关系网

Polycule.

这又是一个我们常听到的词

This is a word again that we hear.

我们说的是，即使父母和他们的伴侣分手了，孩子依然可以和伴侣保持情感联系

So we're talking about this idea that kids can maintain emotional relationships with their parents' partners even if the parent and the partner break up.

对吧

Correct?

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

更重要的是，外界往往只看到性关系，觉得那才是多元情感家庭和一夫一妻制家庭的主要区别——毕竟父母可以和别人发生性关系。但实际上，真正支撑这个家庭的，是成员之间的情感纽带。

And perhaps even more importantly, that it is the emotional relationships at the core of the polyamorous family that to the outside people, it's the sex that really stands out because that's what distinguishes a polyamorous family from a monogamous family is that the parents can have sex with other people.

没错。

Yeah.

所以，在这种关系模式之外，性关系确实格外显眼。

And so that outside of that kind of arrangement, the sex really stands out.

但从内部来看，真正构成多元情感家庭核心的，是那些彼此之间没有性关系的人们之间的情感联系。

But from the inside, the emotional relationships between and among people who are not sexual partners, That is the real backbone of the polyamorous family.

我能从一个更宏观的角度问一下吗？孩子们说，他们在多元情感家庭中成长，最棒的地方是什么？

Can I ask in, like, a zoomed out way, like, what did kids tell you was the best thing some of the best things about growing up in polyamorous families?

这很大程度上取决于他们的年龄。

It really depended on their age.

当然。

Sure.

他们小的时候，觉得大家都围着自己转，特别好。

When they're little, they think all of the attention Yep.

真的很棒。

Is great.

到了九到十二岁左右，他们更看重实际的好处，比如有人接送，或者省时间。

When they're tweens, which is like nine to 12 maybe, they think the practicality of getting a ride or Time.

有个孩子说，这对他来说特别方便。

One kid, yeah, is makes it's really nice for them.

还有一个孩子告诉我，他曾经去找妈妈，说：‘妈妈，我想拿点钱去商店买点糖。’

One kid was also telling me how he had gone to his mom and been like, mom, I I want some money to go to the store and get some candy.

妈妈说：‘不行。’

And the mom was like, no.

你做完家务了吗？

Did you do your chores?

你知道的，我不会给你钱。

You know, like, I'm not giving you money.

他跟妈妈说，亲爱的。

He goes to mom's sweetie.

妈妈说：我有十块钱，还有一根士力架。

Mom's sweetie is like, I have $10 and a Snickers.

你需要搭车去商店吗？

Do you need a ride to the store?

因为伴侣们

Because the partners

这真是太暖心了。

That is so sweet.

我知道。

I know.

真的很暖心。

So sweet.

伴侣们不想承担育儿中那些严厉的部分。

The partners don't wanna be, like, the heavy part of parenting.

他们只想当那种有趣的叔叔阿姨，不想管孩子成绩差之类的事。

They wanna be like the fun aunt or uncle kind of where they they don't wanna, you know, deal with the kid's bad grades or something.

因为他们本来就没必要管。

Because they kinda don't have to.

你懂的。

You know?

收拾房间。

Clean their room.

没错。

Exactly.

哇哦。

Woah.

哦，我喜欢这个。

Oh, I love that.

所以啊，当你是个青春期孩子，想争取点自由或者稍微突破点规矩时，有个愿意站你这边的人真的挺好的。

So, like, when you're a tween and you're looking to perhaps get your way or bend the rules a little, it's nice to have a person that's like, yeah.

我有十块钱，想买根士力架。

I got $10, want a snicker.

有个不那么爱管束你的人，其实挺舒服的。

Like, it's nice to have a person that's not gonna be super disciplinary.

那青少年或者年轻成年人怎么说，他们在多元家庭中成长最棒的部分是什么？

And then when teens what did teens or young adults say was the best part of growing up in polyamilies?

他们发现，从家里学到的情绪管理和沟通技巧，还有开放包容的心态，以及和各种不同的人打交道的能力，真的帮他们更好地应对这个不断变化的世界，学会灵活应对、多角度思考，也更擅长和新人交流——这些能力，很多同龄人反而没掌握。

They found that the, emotional and communication skills they learned in their families and the ability to be open minded and interact with a wide range of people really help them in their lives to kind of navigate a constantly changing world and to be able to kind of shift and see different angles and talk to new people in a way that they didn't see some of their peers successfully navigating.

我记得有个孩子上大学后，室友从小被保护得太好。

Like, I remember this one kid went to college and got a dorm mate, and his dorm mate had had a very sheltered upbringing.

这室友根本管不好自己的时间，老是迟到，起不来去上课。

So this kid could not manage his own schedule, could not get up and get to class on time.

是的。

Yeah.

不做作业，因为没人盯着他做。

Was not doing homework because there was no one telling him to do it.

他来自一个非常受保护、高度管束的

He had come from this very kind of sheltered, highly directive

对。

Uh-huh.

家庭环境。

Household.

结果他进入社会后，完全不知所措，到处碰壁。

And he came out into the world and just floundered.

那个来自多角恋家庭的孩子，从小就被教导要多沟通、多讨论，比如什么是你的个人界限，它怎么跟家庭的界限相协调，他们在适龄范围内承担了更多的自我责任。

The child from the polyamorous family had come from a much more, let's think about it, let's talk about it, what are your boundaries, how do they fit with the family's boundaries, much more self responsibility to an age appropriate extent.

当然，他们也不会说，行，你才四岁，去给我们烤牛排吧。

Of They weren't like, okay, you four year old, go grill us some steaks.

而是会说，行，你才四岁，但你应该知道，如果不穿鞋，脚会疼的。

But they were like, okay, you four year old, you know if you don't wear shoes, your feet are gonna hurt.

这种polyamorous家庭运作所必需的沟通方式，会潜移默化地融入孩子的意识里，变成他们看待世界、与人相处的方式。

It's like the the communication that's necessary for a polyamorous family to work kinda seeps into the kid's consciousness and, like, becomes a way that they operate in the world, interface with other people.

当然，从这个宿舍的例子就能明显看出来，这种影响是非常正面的。

And, of course, clearly, as we can see in this dorm room example, like a really beneficial way.

这个人能清楚表达自己的需求，也知道怎么分轻重缓急。

Like, this person can talk about what they need, prioritize.

当然，我们也得承认，成长在单偶家庭的孩子，同样可以有边界感，也能好好沟通。

I mean and, of course, let's just say kids who grew up in monogamous families can also, you know, have boundaries and communicate or whatever.

但关键是，这种沟通方式在polyamorous家庭里是自然而然的，是所有成员之间的默认模式，这真挺厉害的。

But the fact that this is just a sort of de facto way of communicating between all of the members of a polycule, woah.

他们是怎么发现自己的成长背景影响了自己与人相处的方式，或者恋爱关系的呢？

How else were they finding that their background influenced the way they move through the world or or their own relationships?

部分原因在于，他们从小就习惯和各种各样的人打交道，那些人既不像他们自己，也不像他们从小熟悉的那些人。

In part, it was their ability to interact with all sorts of different people who weren't like either themselves or the people they grew up with.

因为他们从小接触的人群更广，不只是多个成年人，还经常和polyamorous社群里的其他人来往。

Because they grew up interacting with a wider range of people, not only multiple adults, but also frequently members of the polyamorous community.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

对。

Yeah.

所以他们从小在高沟通的环境中长大，这让他们上大学后也能自然地跟教授交流。

So they had a high communication upbringing, which translated into being able to talk to their professors at college Uh-huh.

比如，不会一想到‘天啊，我得去跟老师说话’就紧张得不行。

For example, without feeling incredible anxiety about, oh my god.

得去跟这位成年人说话。

I've gotta talk to this adult.

你知道的。

You know?

他们能直接去办公室找教授聊天，或者做类似的事。

Like, they could go in and talk to their professors in office hours or something.

他们也能很自然地交到新朋友——比如，要是他们在校园里待久了，建立了自己的圈子，后来生病了，也能轻松求助。

They could make new friends in a way that if they had lived there for a while and had established this community, and then they got sick, for example Yeah.

他们有人可以求助，比如让人送点汤，或者拿点纸巾什么的。

They had people they could call on to bring them soup or, you know, Kleenex or whatever.

他们就像天生的社区营造者。

They're like natural community makers.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

哦，我太喜欢这个说法了。

Oh, I love that.

对。

Yes.

天生的社群构建者。

Natural community makers.

因为他们来自那种重视家庭讨论、以社区为基础的成长环境，虽然他们十三岁的时候未必喜欢所有的家庭会议。

Because they're coming from this kind of community based high discussion origin, and that they didn't necessarily love all those family meetings when they were 13.

他们真的受够了没完没了的讨论。

They got really sick of the constant discussion.

对家庭会议烦透了，真的。

They were tired to death Yeah.

就是那些家庭会议。

Of the family meetings.

但回头想想，比如怎么分配家务这件事。

But looking back on navigating, for example, who does the chores.

往前看，如果我们统计现在离婚的主要原因， unpaid labor 的争执，确实是前三之一。

Moving forward in life, right if if we look statistically at reasons for divorce right now, conflict over unpaid labor Yeah.

排在前三名。

Is among the top three.

所以，如果成长在一个家庭能坦诚讨论‘家务劳动不公平’这种问题的环境里，

So coming from a family where the family could discuss, we're having some hard feelings about this unpaid labor.

那我们该怎么解决呢？

How do we address this?

我们搞了个轮值表，每个人负责不同的家务，但孩子们早就听腻了关于这个轮值表的讨论。

Let's make a chore wheel that everyone has a different chore, and the kids were sick to death of the talk about the chore wheel.

但十五年过去了，

But then fast forward fifteen years

这真的很有好处。

It's really beneficial.

没错。

Yes.

他们明白，首先，不该忍受一个指望你独自承担所有无偿劳动的伴侣。

They know, first of all, that they should not put up with a partner who expects them to do all the unpaid labor.

其次，他们也知道，分配无偿劳动的方式不止靠性别来划分，还有别的办法可以协商。

And second of all, that there are ways to negotiate how do we spread this unpaid labor around besides gender.

当然，你也知道，事情不可能全是好的或者全是坏的。

Of course, everything you know, nothing can be all good or all bad.

所以反过来，我想问问，孩子们在成长过程中，有没有提到过在多边关系家庭里最让他们受不了的事情？

So I'll just, on the other hand, say, what were some of the things you heard from kids that were, like, the worst things about growing up in a polyamory?

有一些情况让我觉得是更明显的劣势。

There were some things that stood out to me as greater disadvantages.

没错。

Sure.

比如，别人一看你家这样，就觉得你们家很奇怪，这种偏见确实存在。

Such as the stigma of being in a family that other people look at and think that's a weird family.

我本来以为会听到更多这方面的说法，孩子们确实也经历过一些，但程度没那么严重。

I had expected to hear a lot more of that, and that they did certainly experience that to some extent.

因为多伴侣家庭，尤其是那时候，到现在也常常不引人注意。

But because polyamorous families, especially at that time, but even now, they often fly under the social radar.

现在很多孩子都有多个家长，因为亲生父母离异后各自再婚了。

A lot of kids have multiple parents because their bioparents divorced and remarried other people

或者分开了。

or split up

然后再婚。

and remarried.

所以，家里有好几个大人其实一点都不稀奇。

So the presence of multiple adults is not unusual at all.

结合我自己十几岁时的经历，我觉得有几个大人可以商量，比如找他们要十块钱之类的，这确实是个优势。

I'm also thinking just from my own teenage experience that there's a benefit to having, you know, multiple parents you can ask for $10 from or whatever.

但另一方面，这也有个很负面的影响，就是比如我嘴上说在做一件事，其实跑去开派对了。

But there's a really negative spin to that where it's like, when I was saying I was doing one thing, but I was really going to a party.

如果我要对好几个大人而不是仅仅两三个大人维持这个谎言，那对我来说可就太难了。

If I had to keep that lie going to multiple adults and not just, like, two or whatever, that would have been tough for me.

我是觉得，等我到了十几岁，身边有那么多父母反而可能变成件麻烦事了。

Like, I I feel like there would have been like a thing where when I'm a teen, like, having a lot of parents around actually wouldn't be a good thing anymore.

你说得太对了。

And you nailed it.

没错。

Okay.

这是他们最普遍的一个抱怨。

That was their number one complaint.

真的吗？

Was it really?

是的。

Yeah.

他们最大的抱怨就是什么事都瞒不住。

The number one was that they couldn't get away with anything.

要是想偷偷溜出去，总有人还没睡。

If they were trying to sneak out, somebody was still awake.

总有人是夜猫子，凌晨三点还在打游戏，正好撞见他们偷偷溜回来。

Somebody was a night owl and was gaming at 03:00 in the morning and sees them trying to sneak back in.

天哪。

Oh my god.

你知道吗？这些孩子，你虽然不是一直陪着，但过去三十年里你一直在关注他们的成长。

You know, these kids, you've been talking to some of them for thirty years, you know, of not all the time, but you've been checking in with them over the course of thirty years.

你有没有对其中一些人产生感情？

Have you gotten attached to some of them?

我知道这可能是你的工作，你是科学家，这类事本该保持客观，但你真的对这些孩子产生感情了吗？

I know this is, like, your job and you're a scientist and these types of things, but, like, have you developed affection for these kids?

当然有。

Absolutely.

我最了解的一个孩子，是的。

One of one of the kids that I know kind of the best Yeah.

我看着她从一个小女孩长大。

I have watched her from the time she was a small child

是啊。

Yeah.

现在她有了伴侣，还生了孩子。

To now she is partnered and has her own baby.

真让人感慨。

Wow.

看到她从那时候一路走来，真的特别暖心。

But just so sweet to see her go from about that age Yeah.

我认识她的时候她才四岁，现在都成年了。

About four when I met her to now she's an adult.

她呢，你知道的，有了

She's, you know, got

她现在是开放式关系。

this She's a polyamorous relationship.

她有了伴侣。

Got this partner.

她其实和丈夫保持着开放式关系，特别爱他，两人过得很好。

She is in a polyamorous relationship, actually, with her husband that she just adores, and they are doing great.

所以，Eli，你以前跟那孩子打交道，现在居然都接触到开放式家庭的下一代了。

So, Eli, then you talk to the kid, and now you have the grandchildren of polyamorous families.

对吧？

Correct?

那个孩子还太小了，算了。

That kid is too small Okay.

我本来很想和她聊聊，

For me to talk to, but I would love to.

五年后吧。

In five years.

五年后。

In five years.

是的。

Yes.

真厉害。

Wow.

这正是你研究的未来方向。

That's the future of your study.

继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

我是温娜·卢。

I'm Winna Lou.

我设计了纽约时报游戏中的拼图《Connections》，同时也特别喜欢恐怖片。

I write the game Connections, one of the puzzles from New York Times games, and I love horror movies.

我超爱我的狗，也特别喜欢逗你玩。

I love my dog, and I love trying to trick you.

我是萨姆·阿泽尔斯基，每天都在开发《拼字游戏》和Letterboxd。

I'm Sam Azerski, and I create the game Spelling Bee and Letterboxd on a daily basis.

我有一种叫‘色听症’的状况。

And I have this thing called Chromesthesia.

听音乐的时候，我会看到颜色。

I see color when I'm listening to music.

我是特蕾西·贝内特。

I'm Tracy Bennett.

我每天负责挑选Wordle的单词，这可没听起来那么简单。

I get to pick the Wordle word every day, which is not as easy as it sounds.

我有个有趣的背景：我的祖先曾是塞勒姆女巫审判中被指控的女巫。

The fun fact about me is that I'm descended from a witch who was put on trial in Salem.

哇。

Wow.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我是乔尔·福利阿诺。

And I'm Joel Foliano.

我负责设计你们每天的迷你填字游戏。

I create your daily mini crossword.

我已经为《纽约时报》制作这类谜题十多年了，差不多有三千个迷你谜题了。

I've been making these puzzles for The Times for over ten years now, which is like 3,000 minis.

我真心祈求宇宙赐予我一个新的五个字母的单词。

I am begging the universe for any new five letter word.

《纽约时报》的游戏都是由像刚才几位这样的人制作的。

New York Times games are made by people, like the ones you just heard from.

马上去 nytimes.com/games 开始玩吧。

Go to nytimes.com/games to start playing today.

大家最快的小字谜完成时间是多少？

What's everyone's fastest mini time?

四秒。

Four seconds.

不是。

No.

什么？

What?

我去找找看。

I'll go find it.

我的截图应该还在某个地方。

I have my screenshot somewhere.

所以，你知道，当你开始写论文的时候，又是从采访多伴侣关系的成年人开始，你当时对自己的感情关系还没拿定主意。

So, you know, when you start writing your dissertation, which again starts with interviewing polyamorous adults, you still are undecided on the question of your relationship.

但后来你继续做这项研究，最后你得出什么结论了？

But then as you continue to do this work, where did you land?

作为知识分子，让我害怕的东西，只要我能理解它，就不会再让我害怕了。

Well, I would say that as an intellectual, things that frighten me, I feel like if I can understand it Oh.

它就不会让我害怕了。

It won't scare me

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

现在不会了。

Anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

其实，多边关系这个概念现在也不会让我害怕了。

And actually, the idea of polyamory doesn't scare me anymore.

但我花了三十年才明白，害怕一件事和不想去做它是两回事。

But it took me thirty years to realize that being afraid of something is different than not wanting to do it.

哇。

Woah.

我现在不怕了，但我还是不想做。

I'm not scared of it anymore, but I still don't wanna do it.

当我爱上一个人的时候，我对其他人真的毫无兴趣。

When I'm in love with someone, I have literally no interest in other people.

就算我完全被允许去和别人交往。

Even if I have the full permission to go out with other people.

就像我没法把它归类，你知道的，就是那种插线板，对。

It's like I can't what I think of it as, you know, those, power strips Yes.

就是那种有好几个插孔的。

Where that they have multiple plugs.

对。

Yes.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

对。

Uh-huh.

我就一个插口，就这一个。

I have one plug, and that's it.

我试过再加一个插口。

And I have tried to bud another plug.

我试过自己焊一个。

I've tried to solder one on.

我试过扩展我的插口。

I've tried to expand my plug.

用个延长线吧。

Do an extension cord.

是的。

Yeah.

随便吧。

Whatever.

没错。

Exactly.

我就只有一个插头，这是我自己没法改变的事。

Like, I just have the one plug, and it's something I cannot change about myself.

我觉得那些有多个插头的人，也是他们自己没法改变的事。

And I think the people with multiple plugs, that is something they can't change about themselves.

我觉得大多数人拥有的插头数量是不确定的。

I think most people have an indeterminate number of plugs.

我觉得大多数人都是这样。

I think that's where the majority of humans fall.

我们所有人不就是一群到处乱跑的排插吗。

We're all just a bunch of power strips running around.

要是把你的这个比喻或者画面再延伸一下，你觉得一个人可能在生活某个阶段只有一个插头，但后来又多了几个吗？

And to overextend your wonderful metaphor or visual, do you think that someone might have one plug for one part of their life, but then perhaps have a few more plugs later on?

也就是说，插头的数量会变吗？

Like, can the number of plugs change?

当然。

Absolutely.

我觉得对有些人来说，是会变的。

I think for some people, it can.

我发现我在恋爱和性这方面的需求是分开的。

And I found I have different plugs for romance and sex.

我的性需求比恋爱需求要多得多。

My my sex power strip has more plugs than my romance power strip.

我觉得‘我是不是适合开放式关系’这个问题，很多人都在问。

I think this question of, like, is polyamory for me is one that a lot of people have.

所以我很想听听你的看法，我们该怎么去思考这个问题，该注意些什么。

And so I would love to get your insight as to how we can begin to sort of ask this question to ourselves, what we should consider.

如果一个人在考虑开放式关系，他该问自己哪些问题？

What are the questions someone should ask themselves if they're considering polyamory?

我觉得大多数人最先问的一个问题是：我想要多个伴侣吗？

I think one of the main questions, a lot of people start with, do I want multiple partners?

我觉得这个问题问得很到位。

And that, I think, is is a smart one.

没错。

Yeah.

但这只是问题的一半。

But it's not it's only half of the equation.

你不仅想要多个伴侣，还要想象一下自己在家带孩子、叠衣服、做通心粉奶酪，而你的伴侣却在墨西哥的海滩度假村和他们的心上人共度时光。

Not only do you want multiple partners, but imagine yourself at home with the kids, folding laundry, making mac and cheese while your partner is in Mexico at a beach resort with their sweetie.

这种感觉，你接受得了吗？

How does that land with you?

很多人可能会想，哦，是的。

Like, can you share lots of us can think, oh, yes.

我想要多个伴侣。

I would like multiple partners.

但一段成功的多边关系中，最大的挑战之一，是你看到伴侣和别人在一起时，心里是什么感受？

But one of the biggest issues around a successful polyamorous relationship is how do you feel when your partner is out with someone else?

这种对焦点定位的重新思考真的很有趣。

That is a really interesting reframing of where we should put the focus.

没错，当然，我也希望有别的伴侣，但你有没有想过，如果你的伴侣正和别人在一起，你会是什么感觉？

It's like, yeah, of course, you know, like, I'd love to have another partner, but it's like, how would you feel if your partner was out with us, sweetie?

有没有哪些特质让人更适合开放关系？

Are there qualities that make someone a good fit for polyamory?

反过来，又有哪些特质让人不太适合开放关系？

And the converse, are there qualities that make someone a bad fit for polyamory?

关于这一点，我深入研究过关系满意度方面的文献。

For this, I'd I really did a deep dive into the relationship satisfaction literature.

对于非一夫一妻制来说，有几项特质比较常见，比如喜欢新鲜感的人。

For nonmonogamy in general, there's a few things, characteristics that people who like novelty Yeah.

这类人通常更容易适应非一夫一妻的关系。

Tend to be better suited for nonmonogamy.

还有一些人属于所谓的‘快生活史’类型，这是社会学里的一个术语。

People who have what they call a faster life history, that's a social science term.

也就是说，他们可能经常搬家。

Meaning, they've probably moved around a lot.

他们可能做过各种各样的工作。

They've probably had a whole bunch of different kinds of jobs.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

对。

Yeah.

他们开始恋爱的时间比较早，交往过的人也更多。

They have, they started dating younger, and they've dated more people.

对。

Yeah.

跟那些一直待在老家、喜欢一份工作干到底的人相比，他们更可能对多角恋或非单偶制感兴趣，你知道的，就是那种更

They're more likely to be interested in polyamory or or nonmonogamy than the people who have never left their hometown, who like to have one job and really stick with it, you know, kind of a more

稳定。

Steady.

稳定的生活方式。

Steady way of life.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

并不是说哪一种更好，只是不同的性格倾向，会让你更容易接受多边关系。

And not that any either of those are better than the other, but just what kind of wiring Yeah.

更容易让人喜欢上多边关系。

Tends to make you enjoy polyamory.

我们在讨论的是，哪些类型的人更容易被多边关系吸引，也更适合作为多边关系的伴侣。

We're talking about the kinds of people that will be drawn to polyamory that would make for sort of a a good as it were sort of polyamorous partner.

但我反过来想，是不是也有些人根本就不适合尝试多边关系？

But I wonder on the flip side of that, is there a type of person who just should not do polyamory at all?

当然。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

我现在觉得嫉妒就像大脑里的某些节点一样。

I think about jealousy now as, like, nodes in the brain, kind of.

有些人这些节点很少，而且很容易被触发。

And some people have very few of those nodes, and they get activated by very few things.

这种人更适合开放式关系。

That person is a much better fit for an open relationship.

对。

Right.

如果一个人了解自己，知道自己对很多事情会非常嫉妒，而且这种情绪对他们来说很痛苦，那么和别人分享伴侣可能并不是个好选择。

If people know themselves and they know that they get really jealous about a lot of things and it's very painful for them, then trying to share a partner with someone else might not be a good choice.

另外一点是，这可能会因具体的关系而异。

The other thing is it might vary by relationship.

所以如果他们关系整体很好，只是在这一点上出现了分歧。

So if they're in a relationship where everything is really good and it's this one thing, they're having a mismatch around.

但他们在这个问题上——关于忠诚还是开放——存在矛盾。

But so they're having a mismatch around exclusivity or openness.

对。

Right.

但在其他方面，比如要不要孩子、怎么花钱，他们的想法是一致的。

But in other ways, they're on the same page about whether or not they want children, how to spend money

对。

Right.

宗教观、工作态度、空闲时间的安排，也都合得来。

Religion, work, free time.

如果这些方面都契合，唯独这一点不太一致，那就好处理多了；要是连要不要孩子、信仰是否冲突、一个想存钱一个想花钱这些事都对不上，那就麻烦多了。

You know, if they click on all those other things and this is the only thing that they're kind of out of alignment on, it's much easier to manage than if they're out of alignment on exclusivity or openness Uh-huh.

而且如果他们在要不要孩子、宗教信仰、消费观念上也都意见相左，那就更难了。

As well as disagree about whether they should have kids or not and have conflicting religious beliefs and one of them wants to save and one of them wants to spend Right.

那这段关系就彻底没救了。

Then it's gonna be the kiss of death for that relationship.

我是说，我挺好奇的，当你跟那个想拥有多个伴侣的丈夫在一起、而你对此很抗拒的时候，他是不是比你要热衷得多？

I mean, I wonder, like, when you when your partner when you were married to this guy, when you were with this guy who wanted to have multiple partners and you were resistant, he was more into it than you were.

确实是这样。

By far.

确实是这样。

By far.

对。

Yes.

这种情况在其他伴侣关系中也可能出现，比如一方比另一方更倾向于多角恋。

This might be a situation other people find themselves partner is more interested in polyamory than the other.

对于这种分歧，你有什么建议可以帮他们应对吗？

And what is your advice on how to navigate that sort of divide as it were?

通常来说，在这种我称之为‘混合模式’的关系中，一方想要开放式关系，而另一方想要专一关系，是的。

Generally, in that kind of what I think of as a mixed dynamic where one person wants an open relationship and another wants an exclusive Yeah.

关系。

Relationship.

一般来说，如果双方能找个折中方案，嗯，

Generally, if they can meet in the middle Uh-huh.

开放程度比保守的一方想的要高，但又比开放的一方想的要低。

Where it's gonna be probably more open than the exclusive person wants, but more closed than the polyamorous person wants.

那会是什么样子呢？

What would that look like?

对一些人来说，就是所谓的‘通行证’，比如不能在家里跟别人发生关系。

So for some people, it looks like a hall pass, for example, that they can't have lovers in their home environment.

但要是出去旅行，去牙买加跟别人发生关系，也不会有问题。

But if they go on a trip, they could hook up with someone in Jamaica and not be in trouble for it.

只要不把性病带回家，也不让别人怀孕就行。

As long as don't bring any sexually transmitted infections home, don't get anybody pregnant.

对。

Yeah.

谁都不能搬进来住。

Nobody gets to move in.

我认识的一些人中，有一个特别想要开放的关系。

For another folks I know, one of them really wants an open relationship.

另一个则坚定地想要专一的关系。

Another one is certain that they want exclusivity.

是的。

Yeah.

他们达成协议，平时保持专一，只有在那个特定的会议上才可以例外。

They have an agreement that they are exclusive except for this one convention that the open person goes to.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

在那个会议上，他们可以和其他人发生关系，是的。

And at that convention, they can hook up with other people Yeah.

但除此之外都不行。

But not outside of that.

对其他人来说，他们找不到这个平衡点。

For other people, they can't find that middle ground.

如果一个人真的只接受一夫一妻制，不仅自己想这样，还要求伴侣也必须这样。

If someone is truly monogamous and not only wants monogamy for themselves, but wants to be in a monogamous relationship with their partner

对的。

Right.

那可能行不通。

That might not work.

但我发现，当那个一夫一妻制的人在关系里得到的满足已经溢出来了，

But what I found is when the monogamous person in that setting, when their needs are filled to overflowing Uh-huh.

他们就更容易说：亲爱的，我不想跟别人有关系，但你去玩你的吧。

It's much easier for them to say, okay, honey, I don't wanna connect with anybody else, but you go out and do your thing.

我也会去做我自己的事。

I'm gonna go do my own thing.

那个一夫一妻制的人不会一个人坐在黑暗里，急得直咬指甲。

The monogamous person isn't sitting there in the dark chewing on their nails

对。

Yeah.

而不是在那儿冻得发抖、伤心难过，却还在忙别的事。

Freezing and sad, but they are actively engaged in something else.

而且他们觉得从伴侣那里得到了足够的关注、关爱、性爱和各种情感上的满足，对吧。

And they feel like they get enough attention and affection and sex and goodies, emotional yumminess Uh-huh.

这样的话，他们更容易放手让伴侣去和别人交往。

From their partner, it's much easier for them to give their partner room to go be with other people.

这太有意思了。

That is so interesting.

就像在可能的情况下互相妥协。

It's like compromise where possible.

如果不行，那可能就不太合适。

And if not, then maybe it is not a fit.

我们现在的情况就像一个人只有一个插头，却有好几个插座，这样可能行不通。

And we're in the place where one person has one plug and there are multiple plugs, and it just might not it might not work.

我的意思是，也许最后一个问题是，如果你要给打算尝试多元关系的人提一条建议，最重要的那一条，会是什么？

I mean, I guess one maybe last question is like, is there like one thing if you were to say one thing to people that they should know before trying polyamory, like the thing in all caps, what would it be?

我会说，多元关系并不比一夫一妻制更高级。

I would say it's no more evolved than monogamy.

网上有很多关于多元关系的宣传，说它更成熟、更先进，比一夫一妻制优越。

And there's a lot of kind of polyamorous propaganda about polyamorous relationships being more mature and more evolved and superior to monogamy.

也许有些确实是这样，但也有不少一团糟，根本谈不上比别的关系更优越。

And I would say maybe some of them are, but some of them are a hot mess and certainly not superior to anything.

有很多一夫一妻制的人非常有洞察力，关系也很成熟；同样，也有很多多元关系的人拥有成熟的关系。

There are monogamous people who are quite insightful and evolved having very mature relationships, and there are polyamorous people who having very mature relationships.

有些一夫一妻制的人狭隘、控制欲强、容易嫉妒，多元关系的人里也有这样的人。

There are monogamous people who are small and grasping and jealous, and there are polyamorous people who are small and grasping.

他们的嫉妒表现方式可能不一样而已。

And their jealousy may express in a different way.

你懂的。

You know?

但根据多角恋的宣传，好像每个人都应该尝试多角恋，只要想做就能做到。

But according to polyamorous propaganda, it is really everyone should be polyamorous, could be.

只要他们能放下身段，勇敢一点，也完全可以过上多角恋的生活。

And if they would just put their big girl panties on, they could also be polyamorous.

但我认为这根本不对。

And I think that is not true.

有些人已经非常成熟了，但依然没有足够的精力、时间或空间去维持多个伴侣关系。

I think some people, you can be fully evolved and still not have the spoons or the time or the space in your life for multiple partners.

真正适合多角恋的人，不仅自己渴望多个伴侣，还把关系当成一种技能来打磨——学会更好地沟通、满足伴侣的需求、理解自己的界限。

That the people who do best in polyamory not only want multiple partners themselves, but they look at relationships as a skill that they can learn and get better at communicating, at meeting their partner's needs, at understanding their own boundaries,

几乎如此

almost

让关系变成一种生活方式。

so that relationships become their hobby.

紧接着前面讨论的那些多角恋家庭的孩子们普遍适应得不错的话题。

Coming at the heels of discussing how well adjusted by and large these kids of polyamorous families are.

我是说，我觉得把自己锚定在这一点上真的很重要，但即便如此，这也不代表更高级。

Like, I just, again, think it's really important to tether ourselves to, like and yet still it's not more evolved.

这让我想到，你知道吗，你可是我们研究多角恋的顶尖专家，但你天生就是那种追求专一的人。

It's like and it strikes me that, you know, one of our foremost experts on polyamory, you are someone who's wired for exclusivity.

你明白我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

你是真的把多角恋理解透了，但这并不是你大脑和内心真正运作的方式。

Like, you understand it so well and still, like, this is not the way that your brain and your heart works.

没错。

Precisely.

好的。

Okay.

那我们就先聊到这儿，Eli医生。

I'm gonna close us here, doctor Eli.

你年轻的时候，想象过自己的感情生活会是什么样子吗？

When you were younger, what did you imagine your love life, your romantic life would would look like?

我以为我会过一种专一的女同生活。

I thought I would be a monogamous lesbian.

结果我发现，我确实主要是个女同。

And it turns out I am primarily a lesbian.

我确实和一个男人有过一段，嗯，算了吧。

I had that one dude Uh-huh.

就是这么回事。

Thing.

我现在是单身，这没什么好说的。

And I'm I mean, I'm single right now.

但要是以后再认真谈一段，我肯定还是选择专一的关系。

But if I ever get in another serious relationship, it's gonna be monogamous.

如果你将来遇到合适的人，你希望对方具备什么样的特质？

Future partner, if you are even interested, what are you looking for?

既然你对各种关系模式都这么了解，那你到底期待什么样的关系？

Knowing all that you know about the ways that different types of relationships can work, what are you looking for?

我在亲密关系中渴望自由空间。

I crave autonomy in closeness.

哎呀。

Oof.

我喜欢有充分的自由，也愿意给伴侣同样的自由。

I like to have a lot of freedom, and I like to give my partner a lot of freedom.

如果我以后再谈恋爱，我希望他全心全意对我。

If I ever do get in another relationship, I want all their attention.

但在这份专注里，我还是想要自己的空间。

But I want freedom within that attention.

自由。

Autonomy.

在亲密中。

In closeness.

这话真该印T恤上。

Put that on a t shirt.

我在寻找亲密关系中的独立空间。如果你也在找的话，希望你能找到。

I'm looking for autonomy in and and if you want, I hope you find that.

希望你能找到那种独立感。其实我也希望自己能找到。

I hope you find autonomy And I hope I find it too, actually.

我就随口一提。

I'll just note.

祝每个人都能找到适合自己的相处模式。

Here's to everyone finding whatever relationship works well for them.

这真是结束采访的完美方式。

No better way to close the interview.

埃利·谢夫博士，非常感谢您接受这次采访。

Doctor Eli Sheff, thank you so much for this conversation.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

我也很享受和您的聊天。

I really enjoyed chatting with you.

《现代爱情》团队包括戴维斯·兰德、伊丽莎白·古铁雷斯、林·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。

The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisabeth Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.

本集由莎拉·柯蒂斯制作。

This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.

本集由林·利维和戴维斯·兰德剪辑。

It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land.

我们的混音师是索菲亚·兰德曼。

Our mix engineer was Sofia Landman.

本集的原创音乐由罗文·内米斯托、玛里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦卡斯克和丹·鲍威尔创作。

Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell.

丹还为我们创作了主题曲。

Dan also composed our theme music.

《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯主编，李米亚负责《现代爱情项目》的编辑工作。

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或一段简短的爱情故事，我们会在节目笔记里提供详细说明。

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.

我是安娜·马丁。

I'm Anna Martin.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.