杰西·巴克利为《哈姆奈特》成为母亲，而后在现实中亦为人母。（重播）

嘿。

Hey.

我是Wirecutter的Lauren Dragon，Wirecutter是《纽约时报》旗下的产品推荐服务，我负责测试耳机。

It's Lauren Dragon from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from The New York Times, and I test headphones.

我们基本上会自己制造假汗水，反复喷在这些耳机上，观察它们随着时间的推移会发生什么变化。

We basically make our own fake sweat and spray it over and over on these headphones to see what happens to them over time.

我们要戴上一些降噪耳机，看看它们实际能多好地隔绝外界声音。

We're gonna put on some noise canceling headphones and see how well they actually block out the sounds.

我的数据库里有3,136条记录。

I have 3,136 entries in my database.

孩子、健身，

Kids, workout,

蓝牙是什么版本？

what version of Bluetooth?

在Wirecutter，我们替你做好了所有研究工作。

At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to.

如需独立的产品评测与真实世界中的推荐，请访问 nytimes.com/wirecutter。

For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com/wirecutter.

爱现在，也爱明天。

Love now and tomorrow.

爱。

Love.

爱。

Love.

比任何东西都更强大。

Was stronger than anything.

为了爱。

For the love.

爱。

Love.

我比任何事物都更爱你。

And I love you more than anything.

爱。

Love.

只有爱。

There's just love.

爱。

Love.

来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

这是《现代爱情》。

This is Modern Love.

我认为可以说，杰西·巴克利在这个颁奖季大放异彩。

I think it's safe to say that Jessie Buckley is killing it this awards season.

她是电影《哈姆内特》的主演，在片中饰演莎士比亚的妻子安雅斯。

She's the star of the movie Hamnet, where she plays Shakespeare's wife, Anyas.

她凭借这个角色赢得了金球奖、英国电影学院奖、演员工会奖，并获得了奥斯卡最佳女主角提名。

She's won a Golden Globe, a BAFTA, a SAG Award for this role, and she's nominated for an Academy Award for best actress.

但在她最近的一次获奖感言中，杰西说，她人生中最重要的角色是当妈妈。

But in one of her recent acceptance speeches, Jessie said the best role of her life is being a mom.

去年秋天，杰西刚生下女儿后，我采访了她，聊了聊她在剧中扮演母亲以及现实中成为母亲的经历。

I talked to Jessie last fall right after she gave birth to her daughter about playing a mother on screen and becoming one in real life.

由于本周日就是奥斯卡颁奖典礼，这是我与杰西·巴克利的对话。

So with the Oscars this weekend, here's my conversation with Jessie Buckley.

杰西·巴克利，欢迎来到节目。

Jessie Buckley, welcome to the show.

哦，谢谢你。

Oh, thank you.

感谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

你最近当妈妈了。

You recently had a baby.

恭喜。

Congratulations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

大家怎么样？

How is everyone doing?

大家都很好。

Everyone's doing great.

我的意思是，一切都变了。

I mean, everything's different.

我记得我怀孕时，一个朋友送了我一样东西，让我特别有共鸣，那真是一份小小的礼物。

I remember one of my friends when I was pregnant sent me something that really resonated with me and was like such a little gift.

她说：别忘了，你本身也是一个全新的存在。

She said, Just remember that you are also a new thing.

一切都焕然一新，你知道的？

Everything's new, you know?

这个小生命是新的，你也是新的，你们的关系是新的，你对整个世界的态度也全然不同了。

This little human's new, you're new, your relationship's new, your whole relationship to the world is new.

这很强烈，但我就是爱它。

It's intense but it's just I just love it.

我太爱它了。

Love it so much.

你也是一个新事物，这是一种美丽而智慧的感悟。

Are also a new thing is a beautiful and wise sentiment.

你能给我一个具体的例子吗？哪怕很小，作为母亲后，有哪些事情变得不一样了？

Can you give me a sort of specific way, and it can be really small, that things are new now that you're a mother?

我觉得最常让你意识到的是，孩子刚出生时，正在快速地发现一切，吸收着海量的信息。

I think the thing that you get reminded of the most is a child is discovering so much so quickly when they're just born and they're incubating so much information.

但让我时刻意识到的是敬畏。

But the thing that I'm reminded of is Awe.

那种敬畏、那种发现感，这就是为什么我觉得敬畏有时会让人感到脆弱，因为这一切都太新了，你未必能掌控这种全新的发现。

Is like how much awe and discovery and that's why I feel And awe can sometimes feel very vulnerable because it's so new and you don't necessarily have control of this new discovery.

你只是与它建立着关系。

You're just in relation to it.

这是一种非常直接、纯粹且原始的体验。

It's such a kind of immediate, pure, very primal thing.

我想随着我们长大，我们会以为自己掌握了控制权。

And I guess as we get older, we think we have control.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

好。

Yeah.

我最近在火车上看到，我不知道，我无法进入这个婴儿的脑海，但我看到的似乎是婴儿发现了自己有拇指。

I was on the train recently and I saw, I mean, I don't know, I'm not inside this baby's brain, but what I perceived to be the baby discovering it had a thumb.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，我在看着自己的拇指。

You know, I'm looking at my own thumb.

我根本不会去想这个拇指，这正是你所说的。

I'm like, I don't even think about this thumb, which is sort of what you're saying.

但当时我看到这个婴儿盯着自己的拇指，一副‘这是什么’的样子，和宝宝一起经历成千上万这样的瞬间，真是美好。

But it's like, I saw this baby sort of looking at their thumb and being like, what the and that's a beautiful to to have so many thousands of moments like that with your baby.

成千上万，几百个。

Thousands, hundreds.

每天和宝宝经历的许多瞬间一定都很非凡。

Many moments with your baby a day must be remarkable.

天啊。

God.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的能感受到她小小个性的逐渐显现。

It's I really can see her little personality start to come through.

我看到她身上那种生命力和决心。

I see this life force in her and determination.

我希望她能像我一样热爱生活。

And I I hope she loves life as much as I do.

我

I'm

我非常期待聊聊《哈姆内特》。

so excited to talk about Hamnet.

这是一个关于莎士比亚11岁儿子哈姆内特之死，以及这场悲剧如何启发他创作《哈姆雷特》的故事。

This is a story about the death of Shakespeare's 11 year old son, Hamnet, and how that inspired his play Hamlet.

这部电影并没有聚焦于莎士比亚。

The movie does not focus on Shakespeare.

这部电影更多是关于你的角色阿尼亚，她以莎士比亚的妻子为原型。

The film is more about your character, Anyas, who's based on Shakespeare's wife.

我能问你一下吗？我们第一次在银幕上看到你饰演她时，最打动我的是她的野性，对吧？

Can I ask you, like, the, know, the first thing that strikes me when we see, you know, her on screen, you on screen playing her, is her wildness?

对吧？

Right?

比如，第一个场景中，她蜷缩在树上。

Like, one of the first scenes, she's curled up in a tree.

她与自然、与野性有着一种神秘的联系。

She has this sort of mystical connection with nature, with the wild.

她很脏。

She's dirty.

她在驯猎鹰。

She's taming falcons.

她喜欢草药。

She loves herbs.

这种野性是否与你产生共鸣？

Does that wildness resonate with you?

如果是的话，体现在哪些方面？

And if so, in in what ways?

哦，不是的。

Oh, no.

这深深引起了我的共鸣。

It like deeply resonates with me.

我认为在某种程度上，这可能也引起了我们每个人的共鸣。

I think it probably resonates with us all in some shape or form.

我们只是与自己的野性、与大地、与自然、与作为人类和人性本身的关系变得如此疏离。

We've just become so disconnected from our own wildness and our own relationship to the earth and to nature and to our own condition as humans and human nature.

我是在大自然中长大的。

I grew up in nature.

我出生在爱尔兰南部凯里郡的基拉尼，那里被群山和湖泊环绕。

I grew up in a place called Killarney in Southern Ireland in Kerry and it's surrounded by mountains and lakes.

我小时候住在父亲曾经拥有的民宿后院的一个小棚屋里，后来我们搬到了山脚下的一栋房子里。

Started off my life living in the back of a shed of a guest house that my father used to own and then we moved up to a house at the bottom of a mountain.

我非常感受到，在一个万物因渴望生长而自然生长的环境中长大，爬山会让你真正意识到，相对于这个浩瀚的世界，你只是极其渺小的存在。

I very much feel like growing up in an environment where things grew because they wanted to grow and climbing mountains gave you an absolute respect that you're only a tiny, tiny thing in relation to a world that is so big.

对我来说，这也与阿格尼斯这个角色产生了共鸣。

To me that also resonates with the character of Agnes.

就像我们看到她展现出这种狂野、原始、本能的天性。

Like we see her have this wild, primal, innate nature.

事实上，你知道，她是在一棵树里分娩的。

And in fact, you know, she she gives birth inside of a tree.

我的意思是，你们在分娩时，有想到这个场景吗？

I mean, you just gave did you think of that scene when you two were giving birth?

你当时是不是觉得

Were you like

绝对不要。

Hell no.

我当时就想：好吧。

I was like Okay.

快点搞定这个。

Fucking get this.

快出去。

Get out.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我觉得，人们觉得这个女人可怕的地方在于，她对自己真正感到有生命力的地方毫不妥协。

I I I you know, I feel like what is deemed fearful about this woman is that she is uncompromising about where she actually feels alive.

我觉得在拍摄《哈姆内特》的时候，我非常渴望成为母亲，能够在成为母亲之前，去体验这个女人的母性、她的爱与她的失去，这真是一份礼物。

I think when I was filming Hamnet, I deeply wanted to become a mother myself and it was such a gift to move through this woman and her motherhood and her love and her loss before I became a mother myself.

我觉得，从怀孕到整个孕期，我一直在思考自己想要怎样的分娩方式，以及如何尽可能自主地做出选择，这让我感到非常有力量。

And I think even getting pregnant and throughout my pregnancy and how I was thinking about what kind of birth I wanted and how I would be autonomous in choosing that as much as I could was very empowering.

所以我觉得，我并没有在树根里分娩。

So I think I didn't give birth to the root of a tree.

这一点我们已经说清楚了。

We've cleared that up.

是的

Yep.

但我确实希望尽可能地留在自己的身体里，能够选择自己想要的分娩方式。

But I did want to be in my body as much as I could and be able to choose what kind of birth I wanted to have.

我的意思是，你提到拍摄《哈姆内特》时，你还没有成为母亲。

I mean, you're you're bringing this up that when you were filming Hamnet, you were not a mother yet.

但你能够——我的意思是，当我看你在这部电影中的表现时，你完全体现了我们所说的那种狂野的爱，那种母性的原始温柔。

But you were able to I mean, when I watched you in this film, you so embodied that kind of wild love as we're talking about, that that, like, primal tenderness of motherhood.

那时你依靠了什么？

What did you draw on at that time?

你那时还没怀孕。

You weren't pregnant yet.

你依靠了什么？

What did you what did you draw on?

我想，那正是我当时可能没有意识到自己在寻找的东西，但作为一个坚强的女性去拥抱温柔，是我最渴望汲取的养分，直到我通过这个角色真正体验过，才意识到这一点。

I think that was one of the things that I probably didn't realize at the time that this was a thing that I was looking for, but step into tenderness as a strong woman was something that it was like the water that I wanted to drink the most and until I kind of got to live it through this woman, didn't realize it.

但如果你很强硬，有时候可能根本没有表达这种温柔的途径，你知道吗？

And sometimes there's not a vehicle for that if you're strong, you know?

温柔其实非常强大，同时它也意味着深刻的脆弱；真正从柔软出发，这改变了我。

Tenderness is such a like it's actually incredibly strong to be tender and it's also deeply vulnerable to be tender and actually to leave from a place of softness was I mean, it's changed me.

它彻底改变了我的一切。

It's changed my everything.

你知道，你当时在诠释这种温柔，这个角色。

You know, you were embodying this tenderness, this character.

正如我们之前说的，你当时自己已经是母亲了，而现在，这部电影已经上映了。

As we said before, you were a mother yourself, and now, you know, the the film is out.

你有了一个孩子。

You you have a baby.

我想知道，以你现在作为母亲的身份重新看这部电影，你觉得你演对了吗？

And I wonder as you watch this film, knowing what you know now, being a mother now, is there Do you think you got it right?

有没有什么是你本可以做得不一样的？

Is there anything you would have done differently?

别这么想，我不这么认为。

Don't think No, I don't.

我不觉得我会做出什么不同的选择。

I don't think there's anything I would have done differently.

我怀孕八个月时第一次看了这部电影。

I watched it for the first time when I was eight months pregnant.

那感觉怎么样？

What was that like?

非常强烈。

Incredibly intense.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我一点都不意外。

I'm not surprised.

我拍完电影一周后就怀孕了。

I got pregnant a week after I finished filming.

是慢慢引导的，你知道的，当时是

Had coaxed, you know, it was

你说过你想当妈妈，对吧？

Well, said you wanted to be a mom, right?

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

在这样一个完全扮演母亲的角色、却还不是真正母亲的地方，那种渴望也相当强烈。

It was also quite intense to have that need while I was in this place of absolute mother and not be a real thing yet.

有时候这让我心碎，因为我活在一个完全成为母亲的扭曲世界里。

Know, there was moments where it broke my heart because I was living this altered world where I was absolutely that.

但你知道，耐心一点。

But you know, just be patient.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们之前聊过，母亲身份对你来说是一种彻底的转变。

I mean, you've been talking we've spoken about how motherhood is this kind of totalizing change for you.

我们之前聊过，成为母亲之前，你无法触及的那种温柔。

We've spoken about the kind of tenderness you weren't able to touch before you became a mother.

在《哈姆内特》中，我们也看到阿尼亚真正地爱上了她的孩子们。

In Hamnet as well, we watch as Anya's, you know, really falls in love with her children.

我的意思是，这是一种纯粹、美丽而温柔的爱。

I mean, it's just this pure, beautiful, tender love.

而在你的电影中，另一端也有一个场景，人人都在谈论它。

And at the other end of the spectrum in your film as well, we have this scene, which everyone is talking about.

当然，它给我留下了深刻的印象。

Certainly, it left an impression on me.

‘印象’这个词甚至都太轻了。

An impression is even too light a word.

阿格尼斯竭尽全力想要救活她的儿子哈姆内特。

Agnes does everything she can to keep Hamnet, her son, alive.

他病得很重。

He is sick.

这不管用。

It doesn't work.

他死了。

He dies.

然后有一个场景，你发出了一声尖叫，一声原始的尖叫。

And there's this scene where you do a a scream, a a primal scream.

我想知道，那一刻你的身体内是什么感受。

And I guess I would love to know what that was like for you inside of your body.

嗯，我没料到会发出那样的尖叫。

Well, I didn't know that scream was gonna come.

剧本里没有这一段。

That was not in the script.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我们谁都没料到会这样。

None of us knew that was going to come.

我们也没有排练过。

And we didn't rehearse it.

我们只是随意地开始了那一天。

We just kind of opened up the day.

我想作为团队，我们所有人都像进入了一条河流，你知道的，但我们不知道这条河会带我们去向何方。

And I guess as a team, we're all going into a river, you know, but we don't know where that river is going to take us.

我想那时我们可能已经拍到一半了，我和扮演哈姆内特的小雅各布·杜普变得非常亲近。

I guess at that point we're probably midway through filming and I had got very close with little Jacoby Doop who plays Hamnet.

保罗和我都在其中，我和他们所有人都建立了深厚的联系。

Paul and I were in it and I was deeply connected to all of them.

我想当你面对这样一个故事时，很难想象悲痛在那样的时刻从何开始、又到何处结束，究竟该如何表达这种情感呢？

And I guess when you get a story like this, it is kind of impossible to imagine where grief begins and ends with a moment like that and how to actually How do you express that?

我甚至无法完全想象那种现实。

I can't even imagine the reality fully of that.

但我懂得悲痛，我懂得爱，我懂得我对那个小男孩的感情。

But it was I know grief, I know love, I know what I felt for that little boy.

我觉得在某些方面，那声尖叫是古老的。

I feel like in some ways that scream isn't it's ancient.

它有点像是上百位失去孩子的母亲所发出的呐喊。

It's kind of like a scream for a 100 mothers who've lost their children in some way.

尽管如此，我只是尽力在这条河中走得更远，让自己成为承载这一切的容器。

And with all due respect, guess I just tried to go as far in that river as I could and let that come through me as a vessel.

我不知道那到底是什么，它就是那样。

And I don't know what it is, that's what it is.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

我是黛博拉·卡门。

I'm Deborah Kamen.

我是《纽约时报》的调查记者。

I'm an investigative reporter at The New York Times.

有一次，我正在调查房地产行业中的不良行为，那是一次特别艰难的调查。

This one time, I was working on a particularly difficult investigation of the bad behavior in the real estate industry.

我当时正和编辑开会，她对我说：‘黛博拉，你的脸怎么这么白？’

I was in a meeting with my editor, and she said, Deborah, why is your face so white?

我就如实告诉了她。

And I just told her the truth.

我说：‘你知道吗，这个报道真的很难。’

I said, you know, this story is really hard.

她看着我说：‘这正是我们的工作。’

And she looked at me and said, that's what we do.

我一直在想这句话。

I think about that all the time.

在《纽约时报》，我从未遇到过任何人对我说：‘这太有野心了’或‘这个故事太难了’。

At The New York Times, I have never encountered someone who said to me, that's too ambitious or that story is too hard.

恰恰相反。

It's the contrary.

他们告诉我：‘你需要挖得更深。’

I am told you need to dig deeper.

你需要持续深入，直到我们确保掌握了每一个事实、每一个层面，来讲述那些因过于艰难而无人讲述的故事。

You need to keep going until we make sure we have every single fact, every single layer to tell the stories that would not be told because they are hard.

这正是《纽约时报》的特别之处。

And that's what's special about The New York Times.

它让我们的读者不仅能了解发生了什么，更能理解为什么会发生。

It allows our readers to understand not just what's happening, but why it's happening.

如果你是订阅用户，你很可能已经体验过这种深刻的理解感，感谢你支持这项工作。

If you're a subscriber, you probably have experienced that sense of understanding, and thank you for supporting this work.

如果你还不是，可以在 nytimes.com/subscribe 订阅。

If you're not, you can subscribe at nytimes.com/subscribe.

你一直在谈论母职那近乎变革性的影响，我们在《哈姆内特》中看到了这一点，今天你要为我们朗读的这篇《现代爱情》散文中也同样体现出来。

You've been talking about, you know, the the transformational power as it were of motherhood that we certainly see in Hamnet, and and we also see in this Modern Love essay you're gonna read for us today.

在我们开始之前，你有什么想说的，来为这个故事做个铺垫吗？

Before we get into it, is there anything you wanna say to to tee up this story?

为这个故事做个铺垫。

Tee up this story.

出生可不是闹着玩的。

It's no joke being born.

这可是件大事。

It's a big old That's

这可不是我以为你要说的。

not what I thought you were

我要说的。

gonna say.

这是一件大事，它

It's a big It

出生可不是闹着玩的。

is no joke being born.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

这多么美好、脆弱，而且你知道吗？它能赋予你最意想不到的力量。

And how kind of beautiful and vulnerable and, you know, it can give you the most surprising strength.

维多利亚·道赫蒂的《错误的继承》：我一直知道我的孩子中总会发生些什么。

The Wrong Kind of Inheritance by Victoria Dougherty I always knew something would happen to one of my children.

我从未把这句话说出口。

I never said it out loud.

我也不允许自己深究它。

I didn't allow myself to dwell on it.

但那种感觉一直存在，在我多疑的日子里，它会悄然来访——比如半夜溜进孩子们的房间，确认他们是否还在呼吸的那些夜晚。

But the feeling was there, a vague superstition that visited me on my paranoid days, the kind of day that would find me in my children's room at midnight, making sure they were still breathing.

这种迷信某种程度上源于我的家族传统。

Some of this superstition is in my heritage.

我来自一个斯拉夫家族，祖上来自曾经的捷克斯洛伐克，那里很多人相信诅咒。

I'm from a long line of Slavs, from what used to be Czechoslovakia, where a lot of people believe in curses.

但我的恐惧因一个事实而加剧：我的母亲和外祖母都曾以惨烈的方式失去过孩子。

But my fear is bolstered by the fact that both my mother and my mother's mother have lost children in devastating ways.

六十年前，我的祖母勇敢地逃离了战后的捷克斯洛伐克去与丈夫团聚，却遭到共产党的阻挠，没能带回她们留下的三个女儿——我的母亲和两位姨妈。

Sixty years ago, my grandmother daringly escaped from postwar Czechoslovakia to join her husband only to be foiled by the communists from reclaiming the three daughters they had left behind, my mother and two aunts.

我祖母整整二十年没能再见到她的孩子们。

My grandmother wasn't able to see her children again for two decades.

到那时，我母亲已经失去了她四岁的儿子维克多，他在捷克斯洛伐克一个小村庄里死于流感。

By that time, my mother had already lost her four year old son, Victor, when he died from the flu in their tiny Czechoslovak village.

几个月后，她带着幸存的儿子冒着坐牢和机枪威胁的风险逃往美国，并在那里生下了我。

Months later, with my surviving brother in tow, she risked prison and the threat of machine guns to escape to The United States where she gave birth to me.

我们的传统认为，诅咒总是三重出现。

Our tradition holds that curses come in threes.

尽管地理上的变迁对我们的家庭无疑是种改善，但我仍担心诅咒不会离我们太远。

And while the change in geography was a definite improvement for our family, I feared that the curse couldn't be far behind.

于是我静待它的降临。

So I waited my turn.

当它来临时，我知道它会是圣经般的灾难，如同蝗虫成群或大地将我吞噬。

When it came, I knew it would be something of biblical proportions on par with swarms of locusts or the earth swallowing me whole.

一种我根本无力应对的灾难。

Something I wouldn't be equipped to handle.

毕竟，我不是什么自由斗士，也不是越境者。

After all, was no freedom fighter or border crosser.

我只是个来自芝加哥郊区的中产阶级女孩。

I was just a middle class girl from the Chicago Suburbs.

我确信，当我轮到承受家族的痛苦时，我这种安逸的美国生活会成为我的致命弱点。

I was sure my soft American life would be my undoing once it was my turn to share some family anguish.

它已经严重影响了我和母亲的关系，在我们之间制造了一道难以弥合的鸿沟。

It had already taken its toll on my relationship with my mother, creating a gulf between us we couldn't seem to bridge.

我和母亲的关系似乎主要由一些尴尬的午餐组成：一开始满怀好意，却很快冷场，常常在中途她就说：‘唉，我得走了。’

My relationship with my mother seemed to consist mostly of awkward lunches started with a bang of best intentions, but quickly fizzled, often ending mid meal with her saying, Well, got to go.

我怀疑这是否和文化有关。

I wondered if it was a cultural thing.

小时候，我对母亲的一切都感到难为情。

As a child I was embarrassed by everything about my mother.

她的口音、她保守的政治观点、她那火辣的美貌，还有她给我穿的衣服——像从货架上随便挑出来的伊丽莎白·泰勒和伊万娜·特朗普的混合体。

Her accent, her conservative political views, her va va voom beauty and the way she dressed me like an off the rack hybrid of Elizabeth Taylor and Ivana Trump.

但事情远不止如此。

But it went deeper.

在我母亲高亢的笑声和硕大的水钻胸针背后，在她克娄巴特拉风格的妆容和大胆的动物纹西装之下，藏着一种我永远无法触及的疏离与悲伤。

Behind my mother's high pitched giggle and enormous rhinestone broaches, under her Cleopatra style cosmetics and bold animal print pantsuits was a remove and sorrow I could never penetrate.

这是多年被捷克斯洛伐克秘密警察跟踪、思念父母、被迫寄居在不情愿的亲戚家，以及最重要的是，无法救出我哥哥的结果。

It was a result of years of being stalked by the Czechoslovak secret police, of missing her parents, of being forced upon resentful relatives and more than anything of not being able to save my brother.

我常常试图让她谈谈这些事。

I'd often tried to get her to talk about it.

我想知道我哥哥是谁，更重要的是，想更靠近她。

I wanted to know who my brother was and, more important, to get closer to her.

但她总是堵住我的话。

But she always shut me down.

你根本不懂，”她会说，然后结束对话。

You have no idea, she would say, ending the conversation.

她说得对，因为即使我自己也成为父母后，我也无法理解失去孩子是什么感觉。

And she was right because even after becoming a parent myself, I couldn't wouldn't comprehend what it felt like to lose a child.

直到去年。

Until last year.

在我第三次怀孕大约一半的时候，我和丈夫得知我们的女儿尾骨上长了一个罕见的肿瘤。

A little more than halfway through my third pregnancy, my husband and I learned that our baby had a rare tumor on her tailbone.

几周内，肿瘤在我体内迅速长大，变得非常明显，连陌生人都问我是不是怀了双胞胎。

In a matter of weeks, it grew so large and distinct within me that strangers asked if I was carrying twins.

到了孕晚期，肿瘤已经长到篮球大小，并开始影响胎儿的肾脏和肝脏功能。

By my last trimester, the tumor was the size of a basketball and had begun to compromise the baby's baby's kidney and liver functions.

约瑟芬提前七周通过剖宫产出生。

Josephine was born by cesarean sections seven weeks early.

她无法自主呼吸。

She was not breathing on her own.

她被紧急送往手术室，接受了八小时的手术。

She was rushed into eight hours of surgery.

我们的外科医生成功切除了肿瘤并重建了她的臀部，我们以为这会是终点，但事实并非如此。

Our surgeon was able to remove the mass and reconstruct her bottom and we hoped that would be the end of this, but it wasn't.

结果发现，约瑟芬的肿瘤并非如最初预测的那样是良性的，而是具有侵袭性的癌症。

As it turned out, Josephine's tumor wasn't benign as originally predicted, but aggressive and cancerous.

在她出生后的几个月里，她经历了五次手术和数轮化疗。

In the months following her birth, she would survive five surgeries and several rounds of chemotherapy.

诅咒降临了，而且来势汹汹。

The curse had arrived and it was a doozy.

但大地并没有将我彻底吞没。

But the earth didn't swallow me whole.

我能够坚持站立，并陪伴在我女儿身边，只有一个简单的原因。

I was able to keep standing and be there for my daughter for one simple reason.

我的母亲一直在我身边。

My mother was there for me.

当约瑟芬的肿瘤被发现时，我给母亲打电话，并不是为了求助，只是为了告诉她这个消息。

When Josephine's tumor was discovered, I called my mother not to ask for help, but just to tell her.

她立刻收拾行李，辞去在芝加哥的工作，连夜开车赶到我们在弗吉尼亚的家。

She immediately packed, left her home and job in Chicago and drove through the night to our home in Virginia.

随着约瑟芬的肿瘤每周翻倍增长，她的状况也日益恶化，我母亲的探望变得越来越频繁。

As Josephine's tumor doubled in size weekly and her condition worsened, my mother's visits became more frequent.

当我背部疼痛得无法站在炉子前时，她帮我搅拌燕麦粥。

She helped me stir oatmeal when the pain in my back kept me from standing at the stove.

当我走路困难时，她带我的孩子们去公园。

She took my children to the park when I had a hard time walking.

她每晚为我揉脚。

She rubbed my feet at night.

约瑟芬出生后，必须在费城儿童医院接受手术和专业治疗，我母亲便和我一起住在罗纳德·麦克唐纳之家。

After her birth, Josephine had to be operated on and treated by specialists at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and my mother bunked with me at the Ronald McDonald House.

当约瑟芬被转到弗吉尼亚大学医院时，我母亲搬来和我们同住，并待了好几个月。

When Josephine was transferred to University of Virginia Hospital, my mother moved in with us and stayed for months.

她深夜留在医院陪护约瑟芬，好让我能照顾另外两个孩子。

She kept late nights at the hospital, staying with Josephine so that I could care for my two other children.

她用护士般娴熟的手法照料约瑟芬的手术疤痕和造口。

She tended to Josephine's surgical scars and cared for her ostomy with the expert hands of a nurse.

有时，她凝视约瑟芬的眼睛如此专注，我甚至觉得只有她才能让我的女儿活下去。

At times, she stared so fiercely into Josephine's eyes that I thought she alone was keeping my daughter alive.

她为我们做饭、打扫屋子。

She cooked and cleaned our house.

她和我们一起笑。

She laughed with us.

她甚至讲起我已故哥哥的故事。

She even told stories about my late brother.

有一晚，我们抓到我儿子在浴室里玩射击游戏，对着想象中的靶子撒尿，却偏偏全都没射进马桶，她说：这算不了什么。

One night after we caught my son playing target practice in the bathroom, aiming his urine at imaginary bull's eyes and hitting everything but the toilet, she said, that's nothing.

有一次，我发现你哥哥们互相拿豌豆当子弹打，砰砰砰，像在开枪一样。

One time I found your brothers shooting the pea at each other like they were shooting the gun, bang bang.

有两个儿子，总有些有趣的事发生。

Having two boys, there was always something funny.

后来她告诉我，维克多去世后，她甚至无法理解太阳为何还能照常升起。

Later she told me that after Victor died, she couldn't even understand how the sun could be shining.

她觉得这毫无道理。

It made no sense to her.

这是她第一次这样跟我说话。

It was the first time she had ever spoken to me this way.

考虑到约瑟芬抗争所经历的痛苦与动荡，听到我自己这么说似乎很奇怪，但我和母亲度过了美好的时光。

It sounds strange to hear myself say it, given the pain and turmoil of Josephine's battle, but my mother and I had a wonderful time.

我们一起做了古拉什，并用我们共同的第一种语言——捷克语交谈。

We cooked goulash together and spoken our first common language, Czech.

我母亲认识了我们的朋友，朋友们都注意到我们多么相似。

My mother got to know our friends and our friends remarked on how similar we are.

这一次，这种观察没有再让我们彼此警惕、困惑和不安。

For the first time, this observation didn't leave us looking warily at each other, perplexed and uncomfortable.

我曾经用来向朋友暗示‘别在意她，她有点疯’的身后手势，如今已被一种想在街上牵着她的手的渴望所取代。

The behind the back hand gestures I had once employed to signal to friends, don't mind her, she's a little crazy, have been replaced by a desire to hold her hand as we walk along the street.

当母亲向我的朋友们讲述她的人生课时——她称之为‘大力赞扬她对理查德·尼克松的爱，她最喜爱的美国总统’——我不再感到尴尬了。

I'm no longer embarrassed when my mother gives my friends the lesson in the life, she puts it, by extolling her love for Richard Nixon, her favorite American president.

约瑟芬的疾病或许是一种诅咒，但它依然是发生在我身上最美好、最糟糕的事。

Josephine's illness may well be part of a curse, but it is still the best, worst thing ever to happen to me.

虽然永远夺走了我的内心平静，它却给了我母亲。

While robbing me forever of my peace of mind, It has given me my mother.

我仍然太迷信，不敢宣称胜利，但看起来我的女儿挺过来了。

I'm still too superstitious to declare victory, but it looks as if my daughter is going to make it.

如果真是这样，约瑟芬将打破诅咒，终于在她的家庭中让母亲和孩子团聚，而不是插入一道痛苦的裂痕。

If so, Josephine will have broken the curse and at last brought a mother and her child together in her family instead of inserting a painful wedge.

几周前，我和母亲聊起了我已故的哥哥。

My mother and I were talking about my late brother a few weeks ago.

那段时间临近维克多的生日，这一直是她最难熬的时刻。

It was near Victor's birthday, which has always been a difficult time for her.

以往这个时候，她都会退缩起来，躲着所有人，直到这一天过去。

A time when she normally would have withdrawn and hid from everyone until the day passed.

但今年不一样了。

But not this year.

她正忙着一块一块地为我儿子组装千年隼乐高积木，还给三岁女儿的脚趾甲涂上迟来的红色指甲油。

She was too busy assembling my son's Millennium Falcon Lego brick by brick and painting my three year old daughter's toenails a tardy red.

当她剪掉为约瑟芬买的那条紧身粉红豹纹裙的标签时，她的眼中开始泛起泪光。

As she cut the tags off a hot pink leopard snugly she had bought for Josephine, her eyes began to fill with tears.

四十年来，我心中一直有个空洞，她轻声说。

For forty years, I had a hole in my heart, she whispered.

而如今，这个空洞终于被填满了。

And now that hole is filled.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

非常感谢你读的这段，杰西。

Thank you so much for that reading, Jessie.

趁着记忆还新鲜，接下来会发生什么？

While it's still fresh for you, what's coming up?

什么让你最有共鸣？

What resonates?

太多了。

So much.

最近我也经常想到我的母亲。

I've been thinking about my mother quite a lot too recently.

还有这种代代相传的古老诅咒，要摆脱它有多难，你的生活必须以某种方式被打破，才能让你苏醒，重新认识自己，找到属于你自己的声音，脱离诅咒。

And, this curse, this kind of ancient curse that gets handed down through generations and how hard it is to dislodge yourself from that curse, like something has to interrupt your life in some way to kind of wake you up and wake you up into yourself again and find your voice outside of the curse.

我确实最近感受到母亲为我、为我们全家打破了一个诅咒。

And I definitely have experienced my mother crack a curse for me and for us as a family recently.

看到她作为一个女性如此勇敢和坚强，让她成为了一位更加伟大而真实的人母。

To see her be so brave and courageous as a woman has made her an even more incredible and human mother.

是的。

Yeah.

当你说到她打破了诅咒，你的母亲，你指的是什么？

When you say she broke a curse, your mother, what do you mean by that?

我最早一次看到讲述故事的力量和表达需求的时刻，是看到我母亲在教堂里唱歌。

My first memory of seeing the effect of telling a story and the need to express something was seeing my mother sing in church.

她是一位竖琴手兼歌手。

And she's a harpist and a singer.

她一直对世界伸展着双手，渴望拥有许多，却从未意识到，她本可以拥有比别人教她允许自己选择的多得多的人生。

And she is a woman who's always had her two hands up at the world like she wanted so much and didn't realize that choose she so much more of her life than what she was being taught she was allowed to choose for herself.

她大部分时间都蜷缩在自己生命的角落里。

She spent a lot of the time kind of in the corner of her life.

这位如此渴望融入世界的女人，却把大半生都困在角落，只部分地活着，或部分地被听见。

This woman who was so hungry to be in the world spent a lot of her life in the corner living a little bit of it or being heard in a little bit of it.

然后我会看到她在教堂里唱歌，那是一种生死攸关的时刻，仿佛她从角落里迫切地想要感受并向世界表达些什么。

And then I'd see her sing in church and it was was life and death, like her need to feel and put something out into the world like from her corner.

我会看到一种神奇的事情发生：她鼓起勇气用歌声分享自己的声音和整个自我，彻底击碎了周围听众的防御系统。

And I'd see this magical thing happen where by her courage to share her voice and her whole self in song, she would basically pulverize the defense system in the people that were listening around her.

我看到那些年迈的男子泪流满面地走过来。

I'd see these old men with tears streaming down their face come up.

我想，当她沉入内心时，内心如此丰盈，以至于无法不触动那些最害怕被触动、最不敢感受的人。

I guess in the moments that she sank, she was so full that it couldn't help but touch even the people that were most afraid to be touched or feel something.

我知道，在她作为女性、母亲和妻子的多年人生中，她从未真正觉得自己有能力充分活出自我。

And I know for many years in her life as a woman and as a mother and as a wife, she didn't really feel like she had the capacity to live that fully in herself.

直到几年前，她重返大学，重新学习成为音乐心理治疗师——她从年轻时就开始存钱，存了1250英镑，只为接受高等教育。

And until a few years ago, she went back to university and retrained as a music psychotherapist having saved twelve fifty since she was very young to go and get a third level education.

我的父母已经不再在一起了。

My parents are no longer together.

她现在拥有了自己的房子。

She now owns her own home.

她目前在新生儿重症监护和老年护理领域从事临终关怀工作。

She now works in palliative care in neonatal but also for elderly people.

她现在六十多岁了，刚刚为自己开启了一段全新的人生，这是一件非常非常勇敢的事。

She's in her 60s now and she's just started a whole life for herself and it's a very, very brave thing to do.

她所从事的工作非常美好，因为她的大半生，别人都不听她说话。

And it's so beautiful what she does in her work because for much of her life, people didn't listen to her.

现在，那些生命即将走到尽头的人、无法表达自己的人，或是病重的小小婴儿，都会倾听她。

Now people who are at the edge of their life or haven't got the capacity to communicate or tiny, tiny babies that are very sick.

她正在唤醒这些人内心的东西，并在解放自己、充实自己生活的过程中，找到了一种与即将消逝之物之间深刻的亲密感。

She's waking something up in these people and has found in freeing herself and being as full in her life this wild intimacy with things that might be just about to be lost.

她是一位了不起的女性。

She's amazing, amazing woman.

她的名字叫玛丽娜。

Her name's Marina.

玛丽娜，我本来正想说，杰西，谢谢你分享这个故事。

Marina, I was just gonna I mean, Jessie, thank you for sharing that.

我有幸看着你的脸，听你讲述这个故事时，你脸上浮现的微笑和眼中闪耀的光芒，真的非常美丽。

I'm I'm I have the real privilege of watching your face as you tell this story and the smile the the light that is is coming from you as you talk about your mom is is really beautiful.

我本来想问，她叫什么名字？

And I was gonna ask what's her name?

玛丽娜。

Marina.

这让我想到，这篇随笔是一篇跨越多代人的作品。

And it makes me wonder, you know, this essay is a multigenerational essay.

这不仅仅关乎作者和她妈妈。

It's not just about the author and her mom.

这也关乎作者和她的女儿。

It's also about the author and and her daughter.

我想继续这个话题，既然我见证了你妈妈活出这种自由。

And I I guess I just wonder to continue that thread, like, having watched your mom embody this kind of freedom.

当你和女儿都逐渐老去时，你希望她从你身上看到什么？

Like what do you hope your daughter sees in you as she gets older and as you get older as well?

天啊。

Oh, God.

我想我所能希望传递给她的，是她当然会走自己独特的路，而她也应该如此——我们只有一次生命，生活中总会有让我们怀疑、害怕，或觉得变得低调一点更安全的事情。

Oh, think the thing I can hope to impart to her and I'm sure she's going to go on her whole own trajectory and she should is we have one life there's always going to be things in our life that are going to make us doubt or be afraid or feel like it would be safer to be smaller in some way.

我看到这个如此崭新却又如此丰盈的生命，却被我们被要求成为什么样的这种观念或投射所玷污。

And I see this little life that's so new but so full and so on kind of tarnished by an idea or projection of what we're supposed to be.

我只是希望，如果我能传递给她什么，就像我妈妈传递给我那样，那就是你所有的部分都不算过多。

I just hope that if I can pass anything onto her in the way that my mother has passed on to me is that all the parts of you are not too much.