让自己与桂冠诗人艾达·利蒙一同宣泄愤怒

随着节日的临近，Wayfair为您准备好所有待客和装饰所需的一切。从让全家人团聚的餐桌椅，到让客人倍感舒适的额外床单和毛巾，Wayfair是您一站式家居购物之选。这个季节，将您的空间打造成娱乐梦想之地。在Wayfair一站式获取所有待客所需。此外，Wayfair快速便捷地将所有商品直接送到您家门口。

As the holidays approach, get prepped for all your hosting and decorating needs with Wayfair. From dining tables and chairs that bring the whole family together to extra sheets and towels that make guests feel comfortable, Wayfair is your one stop shop for everything home. This season, transform your space into an entertainer's dream. Get everything you need to host all in one place at Wayfair. Plus, Wayfair ships everything fast and easy right to your door.

立即访问wayfair.com选购所有家居用品。网址是wayfair.com。Wayfair，每一种风格，每一个家。

Shop all things home today at wayfair.com. That's at wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

大家好，我是安娜。在今天节目开始前，我想和大家分享一个有趣的消息。我们决定为《纽约时报》订阅者中也是现代爱情专栏粉丝的朋友们提供一点额外福利。很快开始，除了我们每周三定期发布的节目剧集外，《纽约时报》订阅者还将在每周五的播客中收听到最新的现代爱情散文朗读版。

Hey, everyone. It's Anna. Before we start the show today, I wanna share a fun update with you. We've decided to offer a little something extra for New York Times subscribers who are also fans of the modern love column. Starting very soon, in addition to our regular episodes of the show, which we'll keep publishing every Wednesday, New York Times subscribers will also get the latest modern love essay read aloud in our podcast feed every Friday.

这是你们一直向我们反馈和要求的，我们一直在倾听。所以这是我们表达感谢的方式，谢谢你们收听我们的节目。好了，节目继续。

This is something you've been reaching out and asking us for, and we've been listening to you. So this is our way of saying, thanks for listening to us. Okay. On with the show.

爱现在 你上次爱上他们时坠入爱河了吗？爱比什么都强大。为了爱 爱。而我爱你胜过一切。爱。

Love now and Did you fall in love last time I love them? Love was stronger than anything. For the love Love. And I love you more than anything. Love.

有爱。爱。

There's love. Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这里是《现代爱情》。如您所知，我们的节目灵感来源于《现代爱情》专栏，该专栏专注于个人散文。但今天，我们将讨论诗歌如何也能帮助我们表达最复杂的情感。今天的嘉宾是美国官方诗人，我们的桂冠诗人艾达·利蒙。

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. As you probably know, our show is inspired by the Modern Love column where it's all about the personal essay. But today, we're talking about how poetry can also help us express our messiest feelings. My guest today is America's official poet, our poet laureate, Ada Limon.

在她本月即将结束的任期内，莉蒙向我们展示了诗歌不仅仅是我们在某个安静房间里阅读的文字。她的一个重要项目是在多个国家公园的野餐桌上安装诗歌。所以今年夏天，你可以在科德角的海岸边吃着三明治，欣赏玛丽·奥利弗的诗。或者如果你去加州红木林或大烟山，也能在那里找到诗歌。我必须告诉你这件事，因为它简直超凡脱俗，字面意义上的。

During her time in the job, which comes to an end this month, Limon has shown us poems aren't just words we read in a quiet room somewhere. One of her big projects was having poems installed on picnic tables in several national parks. So this summer, you could be eating a sandwich on the shores of Cape Cod enjoying a poem by Mary Oliver. Or if you're going to the California Redwoods or the Smoky Mountains, you can find poems there too. And I have to tell you this because it's out of this world, literally.

莉蒙创作的一首诗被刻在NASA一艘飞往木星的航天器内部。她在加州索诺玛的家中与我交谈时明确表示，如果她的任期没有结束，她会继续将诗歌传播到各个角落，以此抚慰她当下所见的世界动荡。

Limon wrote a poem that's engraved inside a NASA spacecraft that's on its way to Jupiter. She spoke with me from her home in Sonoma, California, and it was clear that if her term wasn't ending, she would just keep spreading poetry all over the place as a way to soothe the turmoil she sees in the present moment.

我会把诗歌无处不在但绝不造成垃圾——这听起来可能有点老套，但我认为如果我们经常邂逅诗歌，大家都会变得更好，因为它提醒我们去感受：我们不应该麻木，哭泣、愤怒和悲伤都会让我们感受到活着。

I would put them everywhere without littering, of course. This might sound like a cheesy thing to say, but I think we'd all be better off if we encountered poetry on a regular basis because it reminds us to feel that we're not supposed to numb out, that the weeping and the rage and the grief leads to feeling alive.

莉蒙作为桂冠诗人的工作广泛而深远，但我想和她聊些更私密的话题——作为陷入爱河的作家。稍后回来，艾达·利蒙将告诉我为什么爱情诗往往是她最害怕创作的题材。她还会朗读一篇现代爱情随笔，讲述一位作家迷恋上一位非常性感的诗人后几乎无法写作的故事。请继续收听。

Limon's work as poet laureate has been vast and far reaching, but I wanted to talk to her about something much more intimate, being a writer in love. When we come back, Ada Limone tells me why poems about love are often the scariest for her to write. And she reads a modern love essay about a writer who catches feelings for a very sexy poet and can barely get herself to write at all. Stay with us.

大家好，我是伊万·佩恩，《纽约时报》能源记者。很多人认为电力是理所当然的，但它确实是当前一些重大事件的核心要素：人工智能的崛起、气候变化的威胁，以及普通人面对电费上涨的真实挑战。

Hi. I'm Ivan Penn. I'm an energy reporter for The New York Times. I think a lot of people take electricity for granted, but it's an essential piece of some of the biggest stories right now. The rise of artificial intelligence, the threat of climate change, and the real challenges that everyday people are facing with increasing electric bills.

我每天与专家交谈，有时会前往非常偏远的地方，调查能源在这些重大议题中扮演的角色。《纽约时报》有数百名记者，我只是其中之一，每个人都是各自领域的专家，都以同样的敬业精神进行报道。这就是《纽约时报》的魅力——我们共同努力，帮助您更好地理解和认识当今世界。如果这听起来与您产生共鸣且您尚未订阅，请访问nytimes.com/subscribe。

I spend my days talking to experts, sometimes traveling to really remote places, and investigating the role that energy plays in these huge issues. I'm just one of hundreds and hundreds of journalists at the Times, experts in what they cover, who carry the same level of commitment to their reporting. And that's the beauty of The New York Times. We're all working together to help you better understand and make sense of the world today. So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

艾达·利蒙，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Ada Limon, welcome to Modern Love.

非常感谢您的邀请。能来到这里我深感荣幸。

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.

所以我特别喜欢你今天选择朗读的这篇关于迷恋一位帅气诗人的文章。有时候确实会发生这种事，确实会发生。我本来想问，你觉得爱上其他作家容易吗？

So I love that the essay you chose to read today is about crushing on a hot poet. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it happens. I was gonna say, have you found it easy to fall in love with other writers?

哦，是的。我觉得我喜欢这篇文章的原因之一，是因为参加作家驻留项目或置身于艺术家群体中，这种体验有着某种特别原始的魅力。今天早上我还和丈夫聊到这篇文章，我们开玩笑说这和写作驻留或艺术家驻留的其他经历完全不同。部分原因是人们会坐下来交谈——不像在布鲁克林的酒吧里闲聊时那样问'你是做什么的？'

Oh, yes. I think one of the reasons I love this essay was because I think going to a writer's residency or being around other artists in general, there's something that's so visceral about that experience. And I was talking to my husband earlier this morning about this essay, and we were joking about how it's sort of unlike any other experience at a writing residency or an artist residency. And it's partly because people sit down, and whereas you might be, you know, at a bar in Brooklyn and people make small talk. Oh, what do you do?

'你擅长什么？我不做这个，我做过那个'。而在艺术家驻留地，常见的情况是人们并肩坐下就问：'你在创作什么？嗯。'

What do you know? I don't do this. I did that. At an artist residency, what often happens is that people sit down next to each other and say, what are you working on? Mhmm.

然后有人会说：'哦，我刚刚失去了继母，正在写一部关于年少时因癌症失去亲人、关于失去以及这种经历如何让人既更短暂又更永恒地存在于世的小说。'

And someone says, oh, you know, I just lost my stepmother, and I'm working on this novel that's all about what it is to lose someone of cancer at a young age and loss and how it makes you more impermanent and permanent in the world at the same time.

而这还只是你和对方的第一次对话

And this is, like, your first conversation with

对吧。然后那个人又说：'我在创作关于男性躯体的雕塑，探讨心轮脆弱性的作品'——这些都是我瞎编的，不是真的。

the person. Right. And then that person says, oh, I'm working on sculptures of the body that deal with the male torso and the vulnerability of the heart chakra. I'm just making this all up. No.

我喜欢这种感觉。就好像我身临其境。

I love it. I feel like I'm there.

所以与此同时，你知道，你们在喝酒。你们在进行，你知道的，智力上很有启发性的对话。并且你们从这个在其他地方无法拥有的、脆弱的、毫无防备的时刻开始。所以我认为这很容易。我见过人们坠入爱河。

So and meanwhile, you know, you're having drinks. You're having, you know, intellectually stimulating conversation. And you start at this moment of vulnerable rawness that you just don't have in other places. So I think it's very easy. I've I've watched people fall in love.

我主要见过很多强烈的迷恋发生。

I've watched primarily great crushes happen.

哦，天哪。我只能想象。是的。

Oh my god. I can only imagine. Yeah.

我是迷恋的超级粉丝。我认为迷恋对人是有好处的，尽管它们有时可能是一种折磨。

Big fan of crushes. I think crushes are good for people even though they can be torturous.

这篇文章里有一个相当史诗级的迷恋。在我们听你朗读这篇文章之前，你还有什么想说的来为它铺垫一下吗？

This essay has a pretty epic crush. Is there anything else you wanna say to to tee up the essay before we you read it for us?

没有了。我只想补充一点，我真的很认同将迷恋或欲望视为摆脱写作困境的一种方式这个想法。

No. I think I'll just add that I really related to the idea of crushes or desire as a way out of writing.

太好了。我们接下来要谈谈这个话题。

Great. We're gonna talk about that.

是的。我认为作为作家或任何创作和生产事物的人，都理解拖延症。而且我认为某种程度上，我们有时会分散自己的注意力，以防止自己可能完成一个项目。

Yes. I think that as a writer and anyone who makes things and creates things understands procrastination. And I think that there is a level in which sometimes we distract ourselves in order to prevent us from maybe finishing a project.

迫不及待想听你谈谈这个。艾达，你准备好了的话，我很想让你读一下这篇文章。

Cannot wait to hear you speak on that. Ada, whenever you are ready, I would love for you to read this essay.

好的。一颗空虚的心可以被莉莉·金填满。我31岁时才第一次心碎。那是春天，我辞掉了工作，开车横穿全国来到新英格兰的一个艺术家聚居地，那种地方会给你提供树林里的小屋，看不到其他任何小屋。我的驻留时间是八周。

Okay. An empty heart is one that can be filled by Lily King. I was 31 before I got my heart broken. It was spring, and I had quit my job and driven across country to an artist colony in New England, the kind of place that provides you with a cabin in the woods that is not within sight of any of the other cabins. My residency was for eight weeks.

我希望能在那儿完成我的第一部小说。那位诗人比我晚一周到达。他太瘦了，但眼睛非常蓝。我和诗人的第一个玩笑是关于《洛丽塔》的。我们坐在晚餐桌旁，另一位作家正在滔滔不绝地谈论这部小说。

I hoped to finish my first novel there. The poet arrived a week after I did. He was too skinny, but his eyes were very blue. My first joke with the poet was about Lolita. We were sitting at dinner, and another writer was waxing on about the novel.

诗人和我都说，令人不安的恋童癖抵消了华丽的散文，我们无法像我们希望的那样崇拜它。实际上，我们可能只是对视了一眼，无需解释。爱意味着永远不必解释《洛丽塔》中厌女的恋童癖。另一位作家反驳了，所以诗人举起他的餐巾作为屏幕，隔开《洛丽塔》的粉丝和我们。大家都笑了。

The poet and I both said that the disturbing pedophilia canceled out the luscious prose, and we could not worship it the way we would like. Actually, we may have just caught eyes, not having to explain. Love means never having to explain the misogynistic pedophilia of Lolita. And the other writer fought back, so the poet held up his napkin as a screen between the Lolita fans and us. Everyone laughed.

我神魂颠倒了。几晚后，我们观看了其他居民制作的短片。没有座位了，所以我们站在后面。他就在我身后，呼吸吹进我的头发，我们的身体似乎在黑暗中互相交谈。结束后，几乎没说一句话，我们上了我的车，开出了小镇。

I swooned. A few nights later, we watched short films made by other residents. There were no seats left, so we stood in the back. He was just behind me, breathing into my hair, our bodies seeming to speak to each other in the dark. When it was over, with hardly a word, we got into my car and drove out of town.

我们最终来到了一个被电影摄制组带回1969年的小村庄，那里有苏打水店和美容院的厚木招牌，还有一幅巨大的老式男鞋广告画在一栋砖砌建筑上。村庄绿地上有一个凉亭。我们不确定它是真实的还是为电影搭建的。我们爬上台阶，玩着我从手套箱里找到的扑克牌。在回家的路上，他把嘴唇贴在我的脖子上。

We ended up in a small village that had been transported back to 1969 by a film crew, with thick wooden signs for the soda shop and beauty parlor and a huge advertisement for old fashioned men's shoes painted onto a brick building. On the village green was a gazebo. We weren't sure if it was real or for the movie. We climbed its steps and played with cards that I had found in my glove compartment. On the way home, he pressed his lips to my neck.

这段回忆让我整晚心潮翻涌。春天如同通往我小屋路边肥硕的蕨类植物般舒展开来。五月转为了六月。我在新英格兰长大，那位诗人也是。午间的湿热、屋顶上的冷雨、他的口音、他的幽默，以及他抚摸我肌肤的双手，都让我感觉像是回到了一个几乎被遗忘的家。

The memory of it made my stomach flip all night long. The spring unfurled like the fat ferns along the road to my cabin. May turned to June. I had grown up in New England, and so had the poet. The humid heat at noon, the cold rains on the roof, his accent, his humor, and his hands on my skin all felt like a home I had nearly forgotten.

他正在写关于蜜蜂的诗，充满花粉、雄蕊和雌蕊的情色诗篇，蜜蜂与花朵交配，与蜂后交配，蜂王浆与花蜜，以及在半空中的死亡。他会在我们游泳的湖边停车场的卡车里读给我听。后来，他也为此写了一首诗，描述水如何将我们的手臂变成琥珀色。我们在他的小屋里亲热，小心翼翼地掐准时间，以免被送午餐到门口的人撞见。我离开时头晕目眩，几乎无法走直线。

He was writing poems about bees, sex poems with pollen and stamens and pistols, bees sexing their flowers, sexing their queen, jelly and nectar, and death in midair. He'd read them to me in his truck in the parking lot of the lake where we swam. Later, he wrote a poem about that too, how the water turned our arms to amber. We fooled around in his cabin, careful to time it right so the guy delivering lunch to the doorstep wouldn't catch us. I came away giddy, barely able to walk in a straight line.

我如此迅速地坠入爱河，仿佛穿越了太空。视野中不见任何行星。他曾说过，或者至少我以为他说过，他和他在纽约的女友已经分手了。但后来，他又说他们只是在暂时分开，这完全不是一回事，也完全不像我最近与加州一位男士干净利落、永久性的分手。他开始说我们强烈的身体联系太过激烈，甚至可能不自然。

I fell for him so fast and as if through space. No planet in sight. He had said, or at least I thought he had said, that he and his girlfriend in New York had broken up. But later, he said they were taking a break, which was not at all the same thing and not at all like my recent breakup with a man in California, which had been clean and permanent. He began saying that our strong physical connection was too intense, maybe even unnatural.

他说，仿佛试图将他的担忧翻译成小说家的语言，我会理解我们的联系可能像一个不可靠的叙述者。远离他，我母亲在电话中对我说。你是去那里写作的，所以去写吧。几周来我一直在修改同一个短章节。我在艺术家聚居地感受到的压力开始将这个地方为我从作家的静修处转变成了健身营。

He said, as if trying to translate his concern into fiction writer language, I would understand that our connection might be like an unreliable narrator. Stay away from him, my mother said to me when we spoke on the phone. You're there to write, so write. I had been revising the same short chapter for weeks. The stress I felt at the colony had begun to transform the place for me from writer's retreat to fitness camp.

为了抵御所有焦虑，我开始了残酷的锻炼计划：跑12英里的环线，横渡湖泊，并在傍晚打网球。这个运动日程表没给我留下多少写作时间。诗人比我早一周离开。我们在停车场道别。他上了卡车，当我 leaning 进车窗时，他摸着胸口说，你深深烙印在这里。

To keep all the anxiety at bay, I embraced a brutal workout regimen, running a 12 mile loop, swimming across the lake, and playing tennis in the late afternoon. This athletic schedule didn't leave me much time to write. The poet left a week before I did. We said goodbye in the parking lot. He got into his truck, and as I leaned in the window, he touched his chest and said, you are deep in here.

我试图相信这是一个诗人说‘我爱你’的方式。但我知道这更像是一个不爱的人在对方期待这些话的时刻躲避它们的方式。在那之后，我也想离开。最终，我离开了。我在马萨诸塞州的姐姐收留了我。

I tried to believe this was the way a poet says, I love you. But I know it was more like the way someone who is not in love dodges those words at the moment they are expected. After that, I wanted to leave too. Finally, I did. My sister in Massachusetts took me in.

她和男友住在一间马车房里，男友有个朋友帮我在剑桥一家高档餐厅找了份侍应生的工作。八月，那位诗人来访，但他住在波士顿的朋友家。我们连续三天开车去了瓦尔登湖。我们聊天、游泳，假装我们的手臂仍是琥珀色，但它们已经不是了。最后一天，他把我送到纪念大道上的索诺科加油站，那天早上我把自行车停在了那里。

She lived in a carriage house with her boyfriend, who had a friend who got me a job waiting tables at a fancy restaurant in Cambridge. In August, the poet came to visit, but he stayed with friends in Boston. We drove out to Walden Pond three days in a row. We talked and swam and pretended our arms were still amber, but they were not. On the last of those days, he dropped me off at the Sonoco Station on Memorial Drive, where I had left my bike that morning.

一切都结束了。停车场一侧种着菊花，那年秋天每次开车经过那些花，我都会在车里抽泣和痛哭。我在公共场合也哭，在唐恩都乐写日记时哭，在高档餐厅往桌上摆厚重的餐巾和银器时哭，午夜骑车过河回家时也哭。但我也感到惊奇。我惊奇于心碎的感觉。

It was over. There were chrysanthemums planted along one edge of the parking lot, and every time I drove past those flowers that fall, I would sob and wail in my car. I was crying in public too, crying as I wrote in my journal at Dunkin' Donuts, crying as I put the heavy napkins and silverware on the tables at the fancy restaurant, crying as I biked home across the river at midnight. But I marveled too. I marveled at the feeling of being heartbroken.

我曾多次爱过也失去过。其实大多数时候都是如此，因为我似乎总是爱上那些无法回应我爱的男人。但我从未让自己去感受它。我麻木以对，继续前行。但这次，也许因为发生得太快，我没有麻木。

I had loved and lost plenty of times. Most of the time, really, because I seemed to fall for men who couldn't love me back. But I had never let myself feel it. I numbed up, moved on. But this time, perhaps because it had happened so fast, I didn't numb up.

我发现这种感觉，即使透过泪水，也很有趣。我在查尔斯河畔的小径上跑步，心想，这就是人们、书籍和电影在谈论失去爱情时的感受。人们的心会碎，感觉就是这样。感觉就像有人用铜指虎揍了你一顿。但同时，也感觉宇宙正在欢迎我加入。

And I found this feeling, even through my tears, interesting. I ran on the paths along the Charles River, and I thought, this is what people and books and movies are talking about when they talk about losing love. People's hearts break, and it feels like this. It feels like someone has beaten you up with brass knuckles. But it also felt, at the same time, like the universe was welcoming me in.

我心碎了，但感觉比很长一段时间以来都少了一些孤独。十一月，我遇到了一个喜欢的男人。他约我出去，然后在第一次约会当天早上取消了，通过我姐姐的电话答录机说他必须意外离城。他给我写了一封信，说会在新年前回来。信的邮戳是新墨西哥州的。

I was heartbroken, but I felt less alone than I had in a long while. In November, I met a man I liked. He asked me out, then canceled on the morning of our first date, saying on my sister's machine that he had to leave town unexpectedly. He wrote me a letter saying he would be back before New Year's. The letter was postmarked New Mexico.

他说我可以写信到他姑姑那里，但我没有。我放弃了他。又一个没准备好的男人，我想，甚至连第一次约会都没准备好。诗人在一个寒冷的夜晚回来了。我们遛了我姐姐的狗。

He said I could write him there at his aunt's, but I didn't. I wrote him off. Another man who isn't ready, I thought, not even ready for a first date. The poet came back on a cold night. We walked my sister's dog.

他给我看了一段他当天录制的、他患有精神疾病的父亲的视频。我看着视频，为他感到难过。那晚我送他到他的卡车时，我们之间有一种挫败不安的紧张感，我轻轻打了一下他的肚子。但他似乎被我身上的某种东西惊到了，也许是我想要而他无法给予的一切。一周后，新墨西哥的那个男人回到了东部。

He played me a video of his father, who was mentally ill, that he had recorded that day. I watched and felt terrible for him. When I walked him to his truck that night, there was a defeated, restless charge between us, and I punched him in the stomach lightly. But he looked alarmed by something he saw in me, perhaps everything I wanted that he couldn't give. A week later, the man in New Mexico came back east.

我们有了第一次约会，然后是更多次约会，最终我嫁给了他。我的心已为他做好准备，为他的善良与诚实，为他对我轻松而坚定的爱，为那种相互的爱。我的心之所以敞开，是因为我终于让它破碎过。

We had our first date and many more, and I married him. My heart was ready for him, for his kindness and honesty, his easy, steady love for me, for that kind of love, the mutual kind. My heart was open because I had finally let it break.

谢谢分享。趁记忆犹新，你最初的反应和想法是什么？这篇文章让你想到了什么？

Thank you for that. While it's fresh in your mind, what are your first reactions, your first thoughts? What is this essay bringing up for you?

哦，我喜欢这篇文章的许多地方——不是这首诗，是这篇文章。

Oh, there's so many things that I love about this poem, but not this poem. About this essay.

有点弗洛伊德式的口误。

Bit of a Freudian slip.

是的。我真的很喜欢这一点：当世界让我们变得脆弱时，无论是通过失去还是某种转变性的事件，如果我们允许，它会再次向我们敞开世界。如果我们允许的话。

Yes. I really love how when the world makes us vulnerable, whether it's through loss or some kind of transformational event, it opens us up to the world again if we let it. If we let it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

每次我受到伤害，我都会愤怒地反抗它，否认它。然后，渐渐地，我变得柔软再柔软，感觉就像，哦，对了。这才是我应该生活的世界——一个我在其中保持关注的世界。

Every time I've been hurt, I rage against it. I deny it. And then, eventually, I soften and soften, and it feels like, oh, right. This is the world I'm supposed to be living in. The world where I am paying attention.

那个让我感到连接的世界。那个让我有感觉的世界。那个让我感知的世界。我认为当我们处于那种接收状态时，我们会更加连接、更加人性化，尤其是作为艺术家，但实际上对我们所有人都是如此。

The world where I feel connected. Where I feel. The world where I feel. And I think when we're in that state of receiving, we are more connected and more human, especially as artists, but really for all of us.

稍后还有更多与艾达·利蒙的内容。我们马上回来。

More with Ada Limon in just a moment. We'll be right back.

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今天就在wayfair.com购买所有家居用品。网址是wayfair.com。Wayfair，每一种风格，每一个家。

Shop all things home today at wayfair.com. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

嗨。我是《纽约时报游戏》的朱丽叶，我在这里与粉丝们谈论我们的游戏。所以你玩《纽约时报游戏》。

Hi. I'm Juliette from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games. So you play New York Times Games.

是的。

Yes.

你有最喜欢的吗？

Do you have a favorite?

Connections游戏。它正好挠到了我大脑的痒处。这个游戏真的需要跳出框框思考。我每晚都和我丈夫一起玩。啊。

Connections. It just scratches an itch in my brain. It's really out of the box thinking with that game. I play with my husband every night. Aw.

我绝不允许他背着我玩。他总是先猜出紫色类别，而我总能猜出那些他觉得想不到的有趣类别。

I refuse to let him play it without me. He will always get the purple first, and I always get, like, the fun ones that he doesn't think about.

我喜欢它就像现实生活中的联系一样。是的。

I love that it's like a real life connection Yes.

在你们玩Connections的时候。

While you guys play connections.

是的。非常甜蜜。

Yes. Very sweet.

我保证我没玩那个。

I promise I didn't play that.

您可以在nytimes.com/games或我们的应用程序上玩所有纽约时报的游戏。

You can play all New York Times games at nytimes.com/games or on our app.

你在谈论愤怒作为一种本能反应，当事情不如意、经历失去时，你说这种情绪需要不断软化、再软化。你能给我一些关于如何软化的建议吗？因为这确实很难做到。

You're talking about rage as a knee jerk kind of instinct when something doesn't go our way, when there's loss experienced, and you say that has to soften and soften and soften. Can you give me advice on that softening? Because it's really difficult to do.

是的。我只能从个人经验来说，但我认为首先要做的是去感受它。

Yeah. I mean, I can only speak from my personal experience, but I think the first thing you have to do is feel it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为你必须感受那份愤怒。是的。有时我需要写作。我每天都会写日记，有时我不得不写下一些可怕的东西，充满愤怒的糟糕诗歌，以及我对他人怀有的极其愤怒、恶劣的愿望。我觉得在某种程度上，如果我们接纳那种愤怒，就能认识到其中存在某种疯狂，而且它并不总是告诉你真相。

I think you have to feel the rage. Yeah. And sometimes I have to write. I I write in my journal every single day, and sometimes, I have to write terrible things, really rageful, horrible poems, really rageful, horrible things I wish for people. And I think there is a level in which if we embrace that kind of anger, we can recognize that there's some insanity in it, and that it also is not always telling you the truth.

而且

And

我认为我们必须感受那种愤怒，因为我认为愤怒的另一面是悲伤。即使在这篇精彩的文章中，她也一直在哭泣。我认为愤怒实际上是在保护我们，它比悲伤更安全。

I think we have to feel that rage because I think on the other side of that rage is is grief. And even in this wonderful essay, that's where she's crying all the time. I think the rage is actually protecting us, and it's safer than grief.

我很喜欢文章中那个场景，作者莉莉·金在河边跑步，她感到心碎，但正因为如此，她也感到与人性如此紧密相连。她仿佛在说，天啊，就是这样。

I love the scene in the essay where the author, Lily King, is running by the river, and she's feeling heartbroken, But she's also feeling so connected to humanity because of it. She's like, oh my gosh. This is it.

这就是

This is

它。我记得我第一次心碎时就是这种感觉。那种痛苦中带着一种，哇，我来了。自远古以来，人们就一直像我这样悲伤。

it. I remember feeling that way my first my first heartbreak. There was such a pain in it and also like a, wow. I've arrived. People since the dawn of time have been feeling so sad like me.

是的。就在那一刻，我感觉自己触及到了，就像是，整个历史。这听起来可能有点疯狂，但就像是人类的情感。它出现在悲伤和失去的时刻。我在想，是不是在痛苦中更容易感受到那种连接感呢？

Yes. That is the moment where I I felt tapped into, like, the whole history. This is gonna sound insane, but of, like, human feeling. And it was in a moment of sadness and in a moment of loss. And I guess I I wonder, like, is it easier to access that kind of connectedness in a moment of pain, I wonder?

通过悲伤。

Through grief.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。我认为这是一个非常敏锐的观点，因为诗歌常常就是这样，我们写关于悲伤和痛苦的诗，比写感恩、快乐和满足的诗要多。嗯。部分原因是因为当我们快乐时，我们不会迫切地想要写下来。是的。

Yeah. And I think that's a a really astute point because I think that oftentimes poetry does that, is that we write poems about grief and about pain more often than we do about gratitude and joy and contentedness. Mhmm. And partly because I think that when we're happy, we're not driven to the page. Yeah.

而当我们心碎时，会有这种，天啊，我们必须写下这个。这也是一种紧紧抓住它的方式，对吧？有一个很有用的冥想，就是认识到我们每个人都会死去。

And when we're heartbroken, there's this, oh my gosh. We need to write about this. We need to it's also a way of clinging to it. Right? There's that great meditation, which I find very useful, which is just recognizing that every single one of us will die.

人类经历出生和死亡的过程并不特殊。我们都将经历这些。嗯。当我想到这一点时，我就能更加珍惜在身体里的这段时光，在地球上的这段岁月。我认为心碎会让你有这种感觉。

The human experience of being born and dying is not exceptional. We will all have that. Mhmm. And when I think about that, I can then widen my appreciation for this time in my body, this time on the planet. And I think heartbreak makes you feel that way.

我记得很清楚，当我意识到每个人都会死去的那一刻，我就在纽约的地铁上。我的继母大约一个月前刚刚去世。我看着所有这些人脸，心想，哦，我敢肯定这里有一半的人已经失去了他们珍爱的人。

I think there's a level in which like, I remember exactly where I was when I realized that, oh, everyone's gonna die. Was on this New York City subway. My stepmother had just died about a month earlier. And I was looking at all these faces, and I thought, oh, I'm sure half the people here have already lost someone dear to them.

是的。

Yeah.

然后他们仍然去上班。是的。有些人还打包了午餐。就像，什么？午餐？

And then they still are going to work. Yeah. And some people have packed their lunches. Like, what? Lunches?

他们早上5点起床，打包了午餐。即使他们的母亲去世了，他们仍然这样做。

They got up at 5AM, and they packed their lunches. And even though their mother's dead, they're still doing that.

他们在梳头。他们在涂睫毛膏。是的。当然。

They're combing their hair. They're putting mascara Yeah. Of course.

我当时在哭泣。我觉得这太不可思议了。就像，多么勇敢啊

I was weeping. I was like, this is incredible. Like, how how brave

是的。

Yeah.

当你心碎或失去了最爱的人，还能鼓起勇气继续生活是多么勇敢。你知道吗？这就是人生。

How courageous to go on in the world when your heart is broken or you've lost the person that you love the most. You know? This is life.

当然，这事发生在纽约地铁上。这些时刻总是会发生，对吧？那时候你多大？我很好奇。

Of course, it happened on the New York City subway. These moments always happen. Right? On the how old were you when that happened? I'm I'm curious.

就像这是什么时候的事？

Just like when was this?

34岁。另一个

34. Another

你读这篇文章之前提到的另一件我好奇的事是，你共鸣于通过爱情或迷恋来分散工作注意力的经历。你能分享一个生活琐事干扰你的时刻吗？

thing that I'm curious about that you said before you read this essay was you resonate with the experience of distracting yourself from work through love or through crushes. Is there a moment that you're able to share where the stuff of life got in the way?

是的。我的意思是，我认为——我热爱爱情，这是我最喜欢的话题之一。我可以一直谈论爱情。而且我也认为它可以作为一种逃避自我的方式。

Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the I mean, I love love. It's one of my favorite topics. I can talk about love all the time. And I also think it can serve as this way to not be in the self.

是的。我还记得我第一次参加写作驻留项目。那是在9/11事件之后，我去了科德角普罗温斯敦的艺术创作中心。我记得那位出色的诗人玛丽·豪给了我建议，她说：好好享受这段时光。尽量不要爱上任何人。哇。

Yeah. And I remember my first writing residency. It was right after September 11, and I went out to Cape Cod to the Fine Arts Work Center in Provincetown. And I remember getting advice from this wonderful poet, Marie Howe, who said, have a wonderful time. Try not to fall in love with anyone Wow.

因为那只会让你分心。当然，你知道，第一天我就想，哦，我好像对这个人有点意思。她说得完全正确。但与此同时我也在写作，我觉得自己确实完成了不少很棒的作品。

Because it'll just distract you. And, of course, like, you know, day one, I was like, oh, I'm kind of interested in this this person. And it was true. She was completely right. But I did write at the same time, and I, you know, I I I do feel like I got a lot of beautiful work done.

虽然不确定当时是否真的出色，可能还挺粗糙的。但我认为艺术家总有这种特质——我们总想通过非写作的方式逃离当下时刻。你会环顾四周然后说：哦。

But I don't know if it was beautiful. Was probably pretty sloppy at the time. But but I do think there's something about artists that's like, how do we how do we get out of this moment that isn't through the page? You know? And we kinda look around and go, oh.

哦。那个人可能就在这里。是啊。

Oh. That person could be here. Yeah.

当年在布鲁克林和我最亲爱的闺蜜们同居时（她们至今仍是我最好的朋友），我们有个说法。当我们经历艰难时刻——比如和父母闹矛盾，或者工作遇到问题——嗯。我们会说：知道吗？我需要个闪亮物件。而闪亮物件指的就是心动的对象。

We used to have this phrase that we used when I lived in Brooklyn with my dear girlfriends who are still my closest best friends. If we were going through a hard time, let's say, you know, we were going through something with our parents or we were going through something with our work or Mhmm. We would say, you know what? I think I need a shiny object. And a shiny object would be a crush.

是啊。我最近很需要

Yeah. I'm needing a lot

很多这样的物件。有点

of those these days. Kinda

我们甚至有过

we even had

我们在文本中，我们会说 S O。我们 S O 可能可能的 S O。

we in in text, we would say s o. We s o possible possible s o.

S O 目击。

S o sighting.

是的。所以我真的相信，像暗恋这样的力量有时能让我们走出来，给我们一点有趣的事情去想想。嗯。那不是我们自己失败的痛苦。嗯。

Yeah. And so I really believe in the power of, like, a crush to bring us out sometimes just to give us a little a little fun thing to think about. Mhmm. That's not the agony of our own failure. Mhmm.

我得绕回来问一下，因为我必须知道这个写作静修或这个静修暗恋后来怎么样了。你最终表白了吗？还是你一直藏在心里？那个暗恋是怎么回事？

I have to circle back just because I have to know what happened to this writing retreat or this retreat crush. Did you ultimately confess your feelings? Was it a thing that you kept inside? What was what was the deal with that crush?

哦，没有。是的。没有。我们最终在驻留期间一直约会。

Oh, no. Yeah. No. We ended up dating until the residency was over.

哦，哇。好吧。所以和这篇文章很像。真的吗？而且你还好。

Oh, wow. Okay. So it's very similar to this essay. Really? And you were okay.

那么你当时还能继续写作吗？我的意思是，你是否觉得它像莉莉·金描述的那样，或者像你那位诗人朋友警告你的那样，是一种干扰？

And you were able to write through it as much as you I mean, did you find it distracting in the way that Lily King outlines and in the way your poet friend warned you about?

是的。我认为那也是一种友谊。所以我觉得情况有所不同。我不认为它有那种极端的渴望，就像这篇散文中那种几乎能感受到的痴迷程度。是的。

Yeah. I think that it was a friendship too. So I think that it was different. I don't think it had the level of extreme desire that has that's in this essay where you can almost feel that sort of obsession. Yeah.

所以它让我有更多一点思考的空间。

So it allowed for a little bit more space to think.

当静修结束时，是不是有点像……是的，这种迷恋会留在这里，然后我们各奔东西？还是像莉莉·金在这篇散文中描述的那样，结局有多种反复？你的经历是怎样的？

When the retreat came to an end, was it sort of like Yeah. And this crush will remain here, and we will go our separate ways, or was it like a you know, with Lily King in this essay, there's a multiple sort of stutter stops in terms of the end. What was your experience?

我们写信了。

We wrote letters.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

当然，

Of course,

你做到了。

you did.

我们热爱信件。你们的诗人热爱信件。我们就是，你懂的？这简直是最棒的事。给我们写封信吧。

We love letters. Your poets love letters. We just you know? It's it's like the best thing. Write us a letter.

我们就会觉得，哦。

We're like, oh.

嗯，我本来想说这让我想起莉莉·金在散文中谈论诗人对她渴望对象的诗意，他写了那些关于蜜蜂和花粉的情色诗，但对我来说有点陈词滥调。就像，你知道，鸟儿和蜜蜂，你知道，一直在讲述这些。我想知道，当你写情诗或情书时，我不知道。怎么才能写出一首好的？怎么写出那种能打动人心的？

Well, I was gonna say it makes me think of the Lily King talks about the poetry of the poet, the object of her desire in the essay, and he's writing those sex poems about bees and pollen, and it's a bit sounding cliche to me. It's like, you know, birds and the bees, you know, tells all this time. I guess I wonder, like, when you are writing love poems or love letters, I don't know. Like, how do you write a good one? How do you write one that that sticks?

是的。我确实认为我写过的最难的诗就是情诗。而且我觉得写情诗是有风险的。如果你给你当下爱着的人写情诗，会有这种恐惧。对吧？

Yeah. I do think that the hardest poems I've ever written have been love poems. And I think there's a risk to it. If you write a love poem to someone you are in love with at the moment, there is this fear. Right?

那种，天啊。我正在承认这份爱。万一，但愿不会，发生了什么变故呢？然后有一天，我不得不重读这首诗，想着那份爱已不复存在。

That, oh my god. I am admitting this love. What if, god forbid, something happens? And then someday, I'm gonna have to read this poem and think that doesn't exist anymore.

是的。那么当你写一首想打动你当下爱着的人的情诗时，你如何让自己停留在那个时刻呢？

Yeah. How do you keep yourself in the moment then when you're writing a love poem that you want to resonate to someone you're in love with now?

是的。我是说，我给我丈夫写过很多情诗。我只是，你知道，我必须沉浸在那种喜悦中。是的，我真心想要准确表达那份爱，而不是让它显得俗套。

Yeah. I mean, I've written lots of love poems to my husband. And I, you know, I just have to go with the joy of it. Yeah. I am truly trying to get that love right and not to be hokey about it.

对吧？就像，我希望这首情诗真的是为他而写。我保持专注的方式就是真正聚焦于他，思考如何让它成为‘我们的’诗。这不是大写L的‘爱’，而是我们的小写‘爱’，日常、有所需、并以自己的方式美丽着。

Right? Like, I I want the love poem to be really for him. That's how I stay in the moment is I really focus on him and how can I make it like, this is us? It's not love with a capital l. It's our love, which is with a little lowercase love that is daily and needy and and beautiful in its own way.

它以自己的方式堪称史诗，但不是在山顶呐喊。它是低语，是窗帘间的微风，而非风暴。

It's it's epic in its own way, but it's not shouting on a mountaintop. It's whispering, and it's the breeze in the curtains as opposed to the storms.

是的。这让我想起了你的一首诗，是我最喜欢的之一，叫做《情诗并为我此刻的模样致歉》。

Yeah. I mean, this is really making me think of one of my favorite poems of yours. It's called love poem with apologies for my appearance.

我其实标记了那首。真的吗？为你标记了。是的。

I actually marked that. Really? Marked that for you. Yes.

我超爱这首。

I love this one.

它与这篇文章也相呼应，因为其中谈到了一种不同的爱，那种相互的爱

It resonates with this essay too because of the moment where she talks about it's a different the different kind of love, the mutual love

是的。

Yeah.

就在她嫁给丈夫的那一刻。嗯。这首诗很大程度上是献给我的丈夫卢卡斯的。一首为我的外貌致歉的情诗。有时我觉得你看到了我最糟糕的一面。

At the very end when she marries her husband. Mhmm. And this is very much for Lucas, my husband. Love poem with apologies for my appearance. Sometimes I think you get the worst of me.

那件备受喜爱的宽松森林绿运动裤，那些不穿内衣的长日，头发打结且不修边幅，眉头阴影里魔鬼般的念头在脑海中跳着蹄足之舞。我想说这代表我爱你——染污的白色棉T恤，泪水，开心果壳，桌上凌乱的橘子皮。但又不尽如此。我和你在这房子里走动的方式，就像我在脑海中行走一样，不受美貌牢笼的束缚。我就像在高草丛中那样行事，那时的我更像动物而非其他。

The much loved loose forest green sweatpants, the long braless days, hair knotted and uncivilized, a shadowed brow where the devilish thoughts drew their hoofed dance on the brain. I'd like to say this means I love you, the stained white cotton T shirt, the tears, pistachio shells, the mess of orange peels on my desk. But it's different than that. I move in this house with you the way I move in my mind, unencumbered by beauty's cage. I do like I do in the tall grass, more animal me than much else.

我说错了。这确实是我爱你，但更重要的是当你说你也爱我时，灯熄了，冷风穿过窗帘，也许这是我生命中第一次，我相信了这句话。

I'm wrong. It is that I love you, but it's more that when you say it back, lights out, a cold wind through curtains, For maybe the first time in my life, I believe it.

我喜欢一首情诗里能有染污的运动裤。这感觉如此深刻真实。

I love that a love poem can have stained sweatpants in it. It feels so deeply real.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你的丈夫卢卡斯对这样一首诗有什么反应？

How does your husband Lucas react to a poem like this?

经常是这样的，你知道吗，这成了一个真实的故事：我会参加所有这些活动，精心打扮，穿上西装和礼服，做好发型，涂好指甲，你知道，就是为这些场合做的全套准备。他会在Facebook或Instagram上看到我的照片，然后说，哇，你在那里看起来真美。我那时突然想到，哦，他还没看过那个梗。你知道，他看到了作家的梗，而且他很喜欢。

So often, he'll be you know, this became a true story, which was I would do all of these events and dress up and, you know, wear these suits and dresses and, you know, get your hair done and your nails done, you know, the whole the whole thing that you do for all of this crowd. And he would see these pictures of me on Facebook or on Instagram, and he'd say, wow. You look really beautiful out there. And I sort of had this moment where I thought, oh, he hasn't seen that meme. You know, he gets the writer meme, and he loved it.

他喜欢他的诗。

He loves his poem.

你说过情诗是最难写的，也许也是最令人害怕写的。因为风险太大了。但听起来你现在对写安全的诗不那么感兴趣了。这么说对吗？

You said that love poems are the hardest to write, maybe the scariest to write. There's so much at stake. But it sounds like you're not as interested in writing safe poems right now. Is that fair to say?

我觉得是的，我觉得是的。而且我认为尝试去写关于幸福或感恩的诗，你知道？这真的很难。坠入绝望的无底洞更容易，从那里写诗也更容易。

I think that's true. I think that's true. And I think that trying to write towards a happiness or towards gratitude or you know? I think it's really hard. It is easier to plummet into the bottomless pit of despair, And it is easier to write poems from there.

选择生活更难。

It is harder to choose choose life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？是的。更难的是说，我要把我的身体重新抛入世界不确定的龙卷风中。就像，我要再做一次。我来了。

You know? Yeah. It is harder to say, I am going to fling my body back into the uncertain tornado of the world. Like, this is I'm gonna do it again. Here I go.

我又来了。

Here I go again.

我听到鸟叫声了吗，你那边有美丽的鸟儿吗？真是太美好了。

Do I hear birds, beautiful birds in your background? That is so nice.

雨刚停，所以鸟儿们都出来了。

The rain just stops, so the birds are coming out.

哦，这里面有个隐喻呢。

Oh, there's a metaphor there.

诗人可以深挖。是的。是的。

A poet could plumb. Yeah. Yeah.

艾达·利蒙，非常感谢你参与这次对话。

Ada Limon, thank you so much for this conversation.

谢谢。谢谢。能和你交谈真是非常愉快。

Thank you. Thank you. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.

作为桂冠诗人，艾达·利蒙编辑了一本名为《你在这里：自然世界中的诗歌》的选集。我们将在节目说明中附上链接。利蒙还有一本新书《惊愕：新诗与选诗》将于九月出版。今天的散文作家莉莉·金是一位著名的小说家，她的最新小说名为《心之爱人》，将于十月发行。

As poet laureate, Ada Limon edited a collection called You Are Here, Poetry in the Natural World. We'll link to it in our show notes. Limon also has a new book called Startlement, New and Selected Poems coming out in September. Today's essayist, Lily King, is a celebrated fiction writer whose latest novel is called heart the lover. It's out in October.

本期节目由里瓦·戈德堡制作，由吉安娜·帕尔默和我们的执行制片人詹·波伊兰特编辑。制作管理由克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫负责。现代爱情主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作。本期节目的原创音乐由艾丽西亚·贝图普、马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦库斯克、丹·鲍威尔、罗曼·尼米斯托和卡罗尔·萨瓦罗提供。

This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg. It was edited by Gianna Palmer and our executive producer, Jen Poillant. Production management by Christina Joseph. The modern love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Alicia Baetup, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Dan Powell, Roman Nimisto, and Carol Savaro.

本期节目由索尼娅·埃雷罗混音，录音室支持由麦迪·马谢洛和尼克·皮特曼提供。特别感谢米希玛·查布拉尼、内尔·加洛格利和杰弗里·米兰达。以及我们的视频团队：布鲁克·明特斯、费利斯·莱昂内、迈克尔·科尔德罗和索耶·布罗凯。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑，米娅·李是现代爱情项目的编辑。

This episode is mixed by Sonia Herrero, with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mihima Chablani, Nel Galogli, and Jeffrey Miranda. And to our video team, Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Cordero, and Sawyer Broquet. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，我们在节目说明中提供了提交指南。我是安娜·马丁。感谢收听。

If you wanna submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.