《唯物主义者》导演席琳·宋相信一见如故的爱情

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完美肌肤从这里开始。访问clinique.com了解更多。

Great skin starts here. Visit clinique.com to learn more.

现在爱，你坠入

Love now and You fall in

爱河在昨夜。爱。爱。比一切都强烈。为了爱。

love last night. Love. Love. Stronger than anything. For the love.

爱。

Love.

我爱你胜过一切。

And I love you more than anything.

爱。还有爱。爱。

Love. There's still love. Love.

来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这是《现代爱情》。今天，我要和导演兼编剧宋席琳交谈。我得说，席琳真的很会写爱情故事。她的第一部电影《前世今生》我看了四次，也就是说我为《前世今生》哭了四次。

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today, I'm talking to director and writer Celine Song. I I gotta say Celine can write a love story. I've watched her first movie, Past Lives, four different times, which means I cried watching Past Lives four different times.

而且我并不是唯一一个被它感动的人。《前世今生》获得了最佳影片和最佳原创剧本提名。这是一个关于名叫诺拉的女人的故事，当她与童年恋人重新联系时，她已经幸福地结婚了，自从她小时候从韩国移民后就再也没见过他。当他在纽约拜访她时，诺拉发现自己陷入了过去、现在和未来之间的挣扎。

And I'm not alone in feeling so moved by it. Past Lives was nominated for best picture and best original screenplay. It's a story about a woman named Nora, who is happily married when she reconnects with her childhood sweetheart, who she hasn't seen since she emigrated from Korea as a kid. And when he comes to visit her in New York, Nora finds herself torn between her past, her present, and her future.

他有魅力吗？

Is he attractive?

我觉得是。他真的很阳刚，我觉得这就是典型的韩国男人味。

I think so. He's really masculine in this way that I think is so Korean.

你被他吸引了吗？

Are you attracted to

我不这么认为。我不知道。我的意思是，我觉得没有。

I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, I don't think so.

席琳的文字完美地捕捉了爱情中的日常细节。她把你带入那些通常看不到的安静、私密的瞬间。现在席琳有新电影上映，叫《物质主义者》。故事讲的是露西，一位成功的媒人，却似乎无法为自己找到合适的对象。

Celine's writing just perfectly captures the everyday stuff of love. She brings you into these quiet, private moments you don't normally see. Now Celine has a new movie out. It's called Materialists. It's the story of Lucy who's a successful matchmaker but can't seem to find a match for herself.

爱情很简单。

Love is easy.

真的吗？我觉得它是世界上最难的事。

Is it? I find it to be the most difficult thing in the world.

那是因为我们控制不了。它有时就会闯进我们的生活。

That's because we can't help it. It just walks into our lives sometimes.

你在跟我开玩笑吗？

Are you kidding on me?

绝对不是。露西非常擅长她的工作。她吸引潜在客户，采访他们关于理想伴侣的条件，约会后再跟他们复盘。正如电影标题所示，她的客户对物质条件相当执着：外貌、金钱、地位。

Definitely not. Lucy is very good at her job. She reels in potential clients, interviews them about their dream matches, debriefs with them after dates. And as the title of the movie suggests, her clients are pretty obsessed with material concerns. Looks, money, status.

《物质主义者》带我们走进精英约会的浮华世界。但同时，它也是一部关于爱情的电影，意味着它讲述的是人们跌跌撞撞、犯错、尽力寻找自我和真爱的故事。今天，席琳用她的文字告诉我们，在创作中探索爱情奥秘时的喜悦与挑战。此外，她还会朗读一篇现代爱情散文，讲的是一位情感专栏作家在寻找自己的伴侣时却完全困惑。原来，写爱情故事的人往往和我们一样迷茫。

Materialists takes us into this glitzy world of elite dating. But at the same time, it's a movie about love, which means it's a movie about people fumbling and making mistakes, trying their best to find themselves and find their person. Today, Celine's song tells us about the joys and the challenges of exploring the mysteries of love in her writing. Plus, she reads a modern love essay about a relationship columnist who is utterly perplexed when it comes to finding her own partner. Turns out, the people who write the love stories are often just as confused as the rest of us.

和我们在一起。

Stay with us.

万宝龙邀请你利用生活中的宁静时刻，停下来，反思，并提笔书写。

Montblanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

第一章。哦，不。不。不。不。

Chapter one. Oh, no. No. No. No.

第一部分。完美。

Part one. Perfect.

群山令人赞叹。哦，真希望你在这里亲眼看看。

The mountains are impressive. Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

亲爱的日记，认识一下我的新写作伙伴——大班系列。

Dear diary, meet my new writing companion, the Meisterstook.

每一段旅程，都有完美的伴侣在等待。万宝龙。让我们书写。访问montblanc.com，选购精工打造的文具、皮具等精品。

For every journey, the perfect companion awaits. Montblanc. Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods, and more.

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Head to wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

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Throughout the Fort Myers area, life unfolds at your own speed. Here, connecting to loved ones and yourself is an unhurried pleasure. Whether kayaking beneath mangroves, pausing to watch birds take flight, finding seashells along the shoreline, or walking the beach, each moment invites reflection. Fort Myers is a place to experience fully at a pace that just feels right. Discover a slower, more intentional way of living at visitfortmyers.com.

宋席琳，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Celine Song, welcome to Modern Love.

嗨，谢谢你们的邀请。我很高兴来到这里。

Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

我们也很高兴你来了。在你的新电影《唯物者》中，你把主角露西——由达科塔·约翰逊饰演——设定为一名媒人。我听说你自己也做过一段时间的媒人，能跟我聊聊这段经历吗？

We are so happy you are here. So in your new movie Materialist, you made your main character, Lucy, who's played by Dakota Johnson, you made her a matchmaker. And I've read that you were a matchmaker for a short period of time. Can you tell me about that?

哦，我当媒人主要是把它当作一份

Oh, I got a job as a matchmaker mostly as a

只是份白天的活儿，因为

just a day job because

我当时是纽约市的一名剧作家。

I was a playwright in New York City.

你当时多大

How old were you

当你得到

when you got

这份工作时？

the job?

我二十多岁，大概二十五岁左右。我干了六个月，然后我

I was in my twenties, like mid twenties. And I did it for six months. And then I

你当时在做什么？你是不是，比如说，

What were you doing? Were you, like,

放弃约会。

giving up on dates.

就像，你会看他们的个人资料，

Like, you were reading their profiles,

算是吧

kind of

和他们见面。

Meeting them.

和他们见面。对。和你电影里女主角露西的做法很像。对。对。

Meeting them. Yeah. Very similar to what Lucy, the main character of your film does. Yeah. Yeah.

见面后给他们安排。然后在电影里，露西会做一个动作，就是事后和

Meeting them and then setting them up. And then, you know, in the film, Lucy does this thing where she debriefs the dates with

那些人复盘约会。

the people.

你也会那样吗？就是，会记笔记吗？

Were you doing that as well? So, like, taking notes?

会的。会的。会的。我是说，必须这么做。这算是一种奢侈。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to. It's like a luxury thing.

也就是说，嗯，你不用自己左滑右滑、自己给反馈，而是有个人帮你。所以这当然就是那个想法。

As in, like, well, you get to instead of swiping on things on your own and doing feedback on your own, you get to have somebody. So that was that's, of course, the idea.

你擅长这个吗？

Were you good at it?

说实话，我干的时间太短了。我可以告诉你，我辞职的原因之一就是我没在写作。因为我玩得太开心了，你知道吗？

I mean, I did it for so short of time. Honestly, can I tell you, it's like the part of the reason why I quit is because I wasn't writing? Because I was having too much fun. You know?

天啊，你刚刚证实了。

God. You just confirmed.

是因为——到底是什么让你觉得好玩？

Was it because it was what was Well, fun about what's

对我来说好玩是因为，如果你问我我的“毒品”是什么，我会说是人。对吧？那是我最爱的“毒品”。我完全同意你。而且那是了解一个陌生人以及他们内心渴望的绝佳方式。

fun about I mean, it's fun for me specifically because I think that if you ask me, like, what my drug of choice is, it'd be like people. Right? That's my favorite drug. I completely agree with you. And it was like an amazing way to know about a stranger and what their heart's desire is.

对吧？但我觉得那六个月里我对人的了解，比人生任何其他阶段都多。

Right? But I think I learned more about people in those six months than I think I did in any other part of my life.

你学到了什么？

What did you learn?

嗯，我想正是你会在我的电影里看到的：我们用来谈论终身伴侣的语言，跟真正坠入爱河时的感受并不一致。对吧？你知道，我的朋友或者别人听说我在大都会干了六个月，他们会说——

Well, I think exactly what you will see in my movie, which is that the language that we have for talking about our partner for life does not align with what is this actually like to fall in love. Right? You know, my friends or whoever, they'll hear that I worked at the Metropolitan for six months, and they'll be like,

你得给我介绍对象。

you have to set me up

或者别的什么。对吧？你得帮我。

or something. Right? You have to help me.

我知道我打算我在努力替自己问你这个问题，Celine。

I know I'm gonna I'm trying to ask you that for myself, Celine.

就像，有点像，我需要我在爱情方面需要帮助。我在爱情上需要帮助。而我只能坐在那里，我觉得他们常常想问我一个根本的谜题：为什么别人不是单身而我却是？或者，我值得被爱吗？嗯。

Like, it's kinda like, I need I need help with love. I help with love. And I have to sit there, and I I think that they're often trying to ask me about the fundamental mystery of why am I single when these other people aren't? Or like, am I lovable? Mhmm.

爱情有可能吗？爱情值得吗？问题是，我从来给不出好答案，对吧？而我想我给不出好答案，因为爱情是一个古老的谜。

Is it possible is is love possible? Is love worth it? And the thing is, like, I never have a good answer to that. Right? And I think I don't have a good answer to that because love is a mystery that is ancient.

我想多聊聊你的电影《物质主义者》，特别是女主角露西。她是个媒人，正如我们所说，她非常擅长自己的工作。但她不擅长的是自己的感情生活，她似乎总也找不到适合自己的那个人。

I wanna talk more about your movie materialists and specifically Lucy, the main character. She's a matchmaker as we've talked about. She's very good at her job. But the thing she's not so good at is her own love life. She can't seem to find the right match for herself.

我想知道，你觉得她为什么在经营自己的爱情时会有这种盲点？

And I wanna know, like, why do you think she has this kind of blind spot when it comes to to loving her own life?

嗯，我觉得约会和爱情是两回事。

Well, I think that dating is different than love.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？所以这样说来，露西是不是比其他人更能评估一个人，并判断这个人在约会市场上的价值？当然。对吧？这算懂得爱情吗？

Right? So in that way, it's like, can Lucy, more than other people, assess the person and assess that person's value in the marketplace of dating? Absolutely. Right? Is that considered knowing love?

不算。电影里关于露西的真相是，佩德罗·帕斯卡饰演的哈里问她：你一定很懂爱情。露西回答：不，我懂的是约会。

No. And the truth about Lucy is in the film, she is asked he's like, you must know not about love by, Pedro Pascal's character Harry. She's he goes, you must know a lot about love. And Lucy goes, no. I know about dating.

对吧？当然，Harry就说，你知道，有什么区别吗？是的。然后Lucy的回答是，嗯，约会很难，而爱情很容易，我觉得这就是整部电影的主题。对我来说，这就像，嗯，爱情很容易，而这正是它最难的地方。

Right? And, of course, Harry goes, you know, what's the difference? Yeah. And and Lucy's answer is, well, dating is very difficult and love is easy, which I think is the theme of the whole film. To me, it's like, well, love is very easy, and that's what's the most that's the hardest thing about it.

告诉我你这么说是什么意思。爱情很容易，而这正是它最难的地方。告诉我你是什么意思

Tell me what you mean by that. Love is very easy, and that's the hardest thing about it. Tell me what you mean

嗯，说到爱情，当你陷入爱情时，是你无法抗拒、无法控制的事情，它只是发生了。所以从这个意义上说，它太容易了，但这也正是它困难的地方，因为你没有控制权。当然，在现代社会，我们只想控制一切。去健身房，打肉毒杆菌。对吧？

Well, by love, when you are in it, it's something you can't help and you can't control, and it's just something that happens. So in that way, it's so easy, but that's what's so difficult about it, as in you don't have control. And, of course, in modern world, we all we want to do is control. Go to the gym, Botox. Right?

一切都是为了提升你在约会市场上的价值。对吧？

Everything is there so that it can increase your value in the stock market of dating. Right?

这确实是这部电影的主题。所有这些人都试图提升自己在约会市场上的价值。是的。

That's really what the movie's about. All these people trying to increase their value on the dating market. Yeah.

是的。所有这些我希望所有这些努力真的能带来爱情。但我知道真相，我觉得我们最终都知道真相，那就是这些与你是否会坠入爱河毫无关系。你可能遇到一个在各方面都完美的人却没有感觉，也可能遇到一个各方面都不完美的人，却感受到一切。是的。

Yeah. And all of those I wish that all of those efforts actually resulted in love. But I know the truth, and I think that we all ultimately know the truth, which is that none of that has anything to do with whether you're gonna fall in love. You may be in front of somebody who is perfect for you in every way and feel nothing, and you might be in front of somebody who is imperfect in every way, and you just feel everything. Yeah.

我总是说，如果你想要一个六英尺高的男人，那很好。但希望当你90岁时还和那个人在一起。而当你90岁时，那个人只有五英尺四。

I always say it's like, fine if you want a guy who's six feet tall. But hopefully, you're with that person when they're 90. And when you're 90, that person's five four.

因为我们都会缩水。确实如此。我们都会缩水。非常真实。

Because we all shrink. We do. That's true. We all shrink. It's very true.

是的。然后，如果你爱的人想换工作，他们不再赚那份薪水了呢？嗯。你就不再爱他们了吗？是的。

Yeah. And then, like, what if you're the person you're in love with all wants to change jobs and they no longer you make the salary? Mhmm. Just do you no longer love them? Yeah.

这无关紧要。当你90岁时，你仍然得看着那张布满皱纹的脸，仍然得喜欢他们。对吧？你仍然得看着他们，说，看看那个可爱的小傻瓜。你知道吗？

It's it's irrelevant. You still have to look at that wrinkled face of that person when you're 90 and still like them. Alright? You still have to look at them and say, like, look at that cute doofus. You know?

这就是我们必须感受到的。你必须觉得，哎呀，你太可爱了。或者像，哦，我的天啊，我爱你。

That's what we have to feel. You have to feel like, ugh. You're so cute. Or like, oh my god. You're I love you.

你明白吗？

You know?

你知道，我们正在谈论《唯物主义者露西》的主角。我提到她很擅长为别人找到爱情，但对她来说，爱情是一个巨大的谜。嗯。这种对比真的让我想起了你将要读到的这篇文章的作者的经历。你能告诉我你为什么被这篇文章吸引吗？

You know, we're we're talking about the main character of of materialist Lucy. And I mentioned that she's she's good at finding love for other people, but love for her is this giant mystery. Mhmm. And that kind of juxtaposition really reminds me of the experience of the author of the essay you're gonna read. Can you tell me a little bit why you were drawn to this essay in particular?

嗯，正是因为这个原因，也就是每个人都认为自己是专家的事情，却完全让他们困惑。多么美丽的矛盾。

Well, I think precisely for this reason, which is that the thing that everybody thinks that they're an expert in Yeah. Is the thing that completely baffles them. What a beautiful contradiction.

等等。我能问你，作为一个写爱情的人，你有这种感觉吗？你觉得别人认为你是爱情专家，而他们不是？

Wait. Can I just ask you as someone who writes about love? Do you feel like you're that? Do you feel like people think you're an expert at love and they don't?

我认为毫无疑问。我认为那是

I think without question. I think that that's

我也有这种感觉。

I feel that way too.

是的，对吧？但我认为这就像不知道，比如，学会你不知道。当我认为这就是这篇文章的意义时，我觉得这其中有如此的智慧。我之所以被爱情故事吸引，是因为我被爱情作为一个谜吸引，是因为这是我感觉自己在阅读一切、观察一切、思考很多的地方，但我感觉如此，这是什么？

Yeah. Right? But I think it's like not knowing, like, learning that you don't know. When I think this is what this essay is, it's like, I think that there is such a wisdom in that. To me, the reason why I'm drawn to love stories, because I'm drawn to love as a mystery, is because it's one place where I feel like I'm reading everything, looking at everything, I'm thinking about it a lot, but I feel so what is it?

我觉得自己在爱情这个非常强大的古老谜题面前像个白痴。

I feel like an idiot when it comes to the this one very powerful ancient mystery, which is the mystery of love.

很明显，你对爱情充满了好奇，并将继续好奇。这种好奇正在你的作品中显现出来。

It's clear that you've wondered so much about love and will continue to wonder. And that wonder is manifesting in in your work.

当然。我的意思是，这始终是一件永远令人着迷的事情，因为，这再次让我觉得自己像个傻瓜。我的意思是，我是一名导演，我整天都有答案。每天，他们问我一百万个问题，我都有答案。

Of course. I mean, it's always it's like an endlessly fascinating thing because, again, it's the one thing that makes me feel like a fool. I mean, like, I'm a director. I have answers all day. Like, every day, like, they ask me a million questions, and I have answers to all of them.

他们会问，是这种粉色还是这种粉色？我会说，就是这种粉色。我们确定无疑。对吧？我有答案。

They're like, this shade of pink or this shade of pink. And I'm like, this shade of pink. We know for sure. Right? I have answers.

我就像个老板。所以令人惊奇的是，有一样东西迫使我完全投降。多么美妙的事情，我只觉得，哦，感谢上帝。感谢上帝，有一样东西让我完全不得不放手。爱就是投降。

Like, I'm I'm a boss. So it's amazing that there is this one thing that forces me to completely surrender. What a beautiful thing that I just feel like, oh, thank God. Thank God there is something that makes me completely have to let go. Love is surrender.

对吧？你在投降。我觉得这真的很难接受，尤其是在一个我们痴迷于胜利的世界里。所以从这个意义上说，我会想，对于路易丝和我的角色露西，他们都必须

Right? You're you're surrendering. And I think that's really hard to accept, especially in a world where we're obsessed with winning. So in that way, I'm like, well, with Louise and my character, Lucy, they both have

投降。文章。是的。嗯。

to surrender. Essay. Yeah. Mhmm.

他们都必须投降。这是唯一的办法。这是唯一可能的办法。

They both have to surrender. That's the only way. That's the only way that it is possible.

稍后回来，宋诗琳将朗读路易丝·拉夫金的文章《我来自边缘的视角》。请继续收听。

When we come back, Celine Song reads the essay, my view from the margins by Louise Raffkin. Stay with us.

Wayfair热爱秋天。清新的空气，凉爽的夜晚，当然还有季节拿铁。作为您家居用品的信赖之选，Wayfair拥有您舒适布置空间所需的一切，从舒适的躺椅到温暖的床上用品和秋季装饰。Wayfair甚至还有意式浓缩咖啡机，让您在家就能制作那杯拿铁。您知道的那一款。

Wayfair loves fall. The crisp air, the cool nights, and, of course, the seasonal lattes. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home. You know the one.

今天就访问wayfair.com，选购精心策划的轻松实惠秋季更新系列。那就是wayfair.com。Wayfair，每种风格，每个家。Audible的浪漫系列能满足您每一面的需求，无论您想听甜蜜、搞笑、魔幻，还是真正火辣的内容。聆听莉莉·楚和阿莉·黑兹尔伍德等畅销作家的现代浪漫喜剧。

Head to wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Audible's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you, whether you're in the mood for sweet, funny, magical, or seriously steamy. Listen to modern rom coms from bestselling authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood.

沉浸在莎拉·J·马斯和丽贝卡·亚罗斯的浪漫奇幻世界中。或者穿越到摄政时期的热门作品如《布里奇顿》和《外乡人》。此外，探索所有深情而大胆、让您欲罢不能的作品。在audible.com/modernlove开始您的第一个伟大爱情故事，免费试用30天。

Fall into romantasy worlds from Sarah J Maas and Rebecca Yaros. Or time travel through Regency hits like Bridgerton and Outlander. Plus explore all the deeply passionate and daring titles you won't wanna put down. Start your first great love story free at audible.com/modernlove with a thirty day trial.

这里是波士顿洛根机场的Chase Sapphire贵宾厅。你喝到了蛤蜊浓汤。在纽约，是脏马提尼。一张卡就能进入1300多个机场贵宾厅。Chase Sapphire Reserve，最超值的卡。

This is the Chase Sapphire lounge at Boston Logan. You got clam chowder. In New York, dirty martini. Over 1,300 airport lounges in one card that gets you in. Chase Sapphire Reserve, the most rewarding card.

更多信息请访问chase.com/sapphirereserve。卡片由摩根大通银行发行，FDIC成员，需信用审批。

Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

Celine，我迫不及待想听你朗读这篇随笔，你准备好了就开始。

Celine, I cannot wait to hear you read this essay whenever you're ready.

《来自边缘的视角》作者Louise Raffkin。那是一座巨大的都铎式房子，位于我几乎从未涉足的街区——旧金山富裕的丘陵地带，可以俯瞰海湾。我停好车，抓起笔记本，沿着车道往上走。在我上方，透过灯火通明的厨房大窗，我看到了我要采访的那对夫妇。

My view from the margins by Louise Raffkin. The house was an enormous tutor in a neighborhood I hardly ever visit. The rich, hilly part of San Francisco with vistas to the bay. I parked, grabbed my notebook, and started up the drive. Above me, visible through the large window of the lighted kitchen, was a couple I had come to interview.

那位医生和他的妻子。我看见她把花生酱抹在面包上，男人则把面包折进塑料袋。即使隔着距离，也能感受到他们之间那种亲密。一种略带刺痛的感觉涌上我的喉咙。我刚才到底看见了什么？

The doctor and his wife. I watched her spread peanut butter on bread, which the man folded into plastic bags. The intimacy between them palpable even from a distance. A somewhat painful feeling arose in my throat. What was it that I had just seen?

我该如何写这件事？刚刚在我身上发生了什么？我的呼吸变得浅促。我等待，深吸一口气，感觉肋骨扩张，喉咙里的硬块融化。然后我敲了门。

How would I write about it? And what had just happened to me? My breath was shallow. I waited, inhaled deeply, felt my ribs expand and the lump in my throat melt. And then I knocked.

接下来，就像过去两年里我一直做的那样，我踏进完全陌生人家中，问他们是如何找到爱情的。我的工作是为本市报纸采访夫妻。当一位编辑打电话问我是否有兴趣写每周专栏时，我愣住了。十多年来我一直在争取一个专栏，可当我们面对面坐下，她说出“情感”这个词时，我却懵了。“夫妻如何相遇，不寻常的求爱故事，”她补充道。

Next, as I have done now for two years, I stepped inside the home of complete strangers and asked them how they found love. My job is to interview couples for our city newspaper. When an editor called to see if I was interested in writing a weekly article, I was taken aback. I had been angling for a column for more than a decade, but when we met face to face and she said the word relationships, I was flummoxed. How couples meet, unusual courtship stories, she elaborated.

“爱情故事。”这是一份美差。自己安排时间，和有趣的人聊天，占据报纸的黄金版面，还能赚不少钱。“太好了！”我声音大得有点过头。我坦白：“我不是那种浪漫的女孩。”

Love stories. It was a sweetheart of a job. Make my own schedule, talk to interesting people, enjoy prime placement in the paper, and make good money. Great, I barked a little too loudly. I'm not a romance kind of girl, I admitted.

“但我对别人如何坠入爱河很着迷。”我赶紧补了一句。我没说的是，我对爱情其实早已心灰意冷，刚刚和最近一位“不太对”的女友分手——人到中年，这类女友的数量已上两位数。我和上一个“不太对”的人交往了一年多。从纸面上看，我们非常般配，兴趣相投，怪癖也契合。可从一开始我就知道缺了点什么。

But I'm fascinated by how other people fall in love, I quickly added. What I didn't say was that I was also jaded about love, having just split from the most recent of a string of not quite right girlfriends, the number of which, as I approach middle age, had reached into the double digits. I had dated this last not right person for more than a year. On paper, we looked great together with similar passions and compatible quirkiness. Yet I had known from the beginning that something was missing.

我们有火花，却没有烟花。一团小火苗，无论我怎么拼命扇风，始终长不大。偶尔她会和别人上床，可我几乎不介意。在我看来，那个人和我一样，都不是她的最终归宿。直到有一天，她永久地搬进了那个人的床上。

We had sparks, but no fireworks. A small flame that remained small despite my most ardent fanning. Occasionally, she would sleep with someone else, though it hardly bothered me. That other person, it seemed to me, was no more her final destination than I was. Until, that is, she migrated permanently into that other person's bed.

于是我站在那里，心被伤透，再次恢复单身，面对一个挑战。一位编辑对某个项目充满福音般的热情，而我，一个长期单身、对感情有些愤世嫉俗的失败者，却渴望在报纸上开专栏。我试探着说，听起来不错。我全身心投入工作。人们总是用工作来分散分手的注意力。

So there I was, bruised of heart and single yet again, facing a challenge. An editor with an evangelical enthusiasm for a project, and me, a perennially single and somewhat cynical relationship flunky with a lust for newsprint column inches. It sounds great, I ventured. I catapulted into my work. It's what people do to distract themselves from a breakup.

而我脑子里那个可怕的声音一直在低语：你已经50岁了，还单身，祝你好运。在接下来的两年里，我采访了200多人，了解他们如何相遇、结婚或结合，而我一次次抛出难以置信的问题。有个男人通过法国笔友组织认识了一位来自毛里求斯群岛的女人。

And there was that scary voice in my head that kept whispering, you're 50. You're single. Good luck with that. In the two years since, I've interviewed more than 200 people about how they met, married or merged, and time and again, I've asked my incredulous questions. One man married a woman from the Mauritius Islands that he met through a French pen pal organization.

“你们只交换了两张明信片就飞去非洲见对方？”我问。不仅如此，他在不到一周就求婚了。他们已经结婚十年。一个意大利裔美国男人为后面车里一个可爱的女孩付了过桥费。

You flew to Africa to meet someone after exchanging two postcards? I asked. Not only that, but he proposed in less than a week. They've been married for ten years. An Italian American guy paid the bridge toll for a cute girl in the car behind him.

她嫁给了他。一对情侣在正面相撞中相遇，两人都伤得不重。另一对是在二战后幸存者迁移营里相遇。两个女同性恋在基督教邪教里九岁时就认识，高中毕业后一起逃出来。

She married him. A couple met in a head on collision. Neither was badly hurt. Another in a relocation camp for survivors after World War two. Two lesbians met as nine year olds in a Christian cult from which they escaped together after high school graduation.

如今四十多岁，她们仍在一起，对从未经历过心碎这种罕见境遇感到既好笑又感激。我办公室挂着一张世界地图，上面插满彩色图钉，标记着受访者来自的国家。然而，他们对我而言最陌生的并非文化或族裔，而是他们对爱情这种难以解释之事的笃定。你怎么知道的？

Now in their forties, they're still together, amused by and grateful for the rare circumstance of never having experienced a broken heart. A world map hangs in my office, poked with colorful pins marking the countries of origin of my subjects. Yet what's most foreign to me about them is not their culture or ethnicity. It's their certainty about something as inexplicable as love. How did you know?

我问那个在飞机上遇见未来丈夫并声称从挤进中间座位那一刻起就知道会嫁给他的女人。“我感觉到了。”她对我持续的追问反复回答。感觉到什么？我不愿回想自己问过多少次。最终，他们反客为主，问起我自己的感情状况。

I asked the woman who had met her future husband on a plane and swear she knew they would marry from the moment she squeezed into that middle seat. I felt it, she repeated to my persistent increase. Felt what? I have wondered more times than I care to recall. Inevitably, they turned the tables and asked me about my own relationship status.

有时我回避问题，但偶尔也试着回答。“你怎么认识你丈夫的？”几周前，一位在泰国难民营遇见妻子的缅甸政治活动家这样问我。我没纠正他对性别的假设。“我还没遇到。”我结结巴巴地说。

Sometimes I skirt the question, but occasionally I give it a shot. How did you meet your husband? This came at me a few weeks ago from a Burmese political activist who met his wife in a Thai refugee camp. I didn't bother to correct his gender presumption. I haven't yet, I stammered.

他们的脸色沉了下来。做这份工作真可怜，那女人说。我离开时，她把一个小雕像塞进我包里。“祝你好运。”她说。有时我觉得自己像火星上的人类学家。

Their faces fell. How sad for you, this work, the woman said. As I was leaving, she tucked a small statuette into my purse. For good luck, she told me. At times, I feel like an anthropologist on Mars.

我采访的许多人都有直觉，被闪电击中，就是知道。但无论我听过多少次这些故事——每周都听——我仍无法理解。我以前也“知道”过，当然。唯一一次真正感到那种磁力，是对一个有魅力的金发意大利人。最初的吸引确实强烈，在杂货店隔着过道的一瞥就点燃，但反面就像把磁铁反过来对碰。

So many of the people I interview have gut feelings and are hit with lightning bolts and simply know. But no matter how many times I hear these stories, and I hear them every week, I have yet to understand. I have known things before, sure. The one time I really felt that magnetic feeling was with a charismatic blonde Italian. Sure, the initial attraction was intense, ignited by a glance across the grocery store, but the flip side was like turning magnets' backsides to each other.

排斥、争吵、嫉妒和戏剧化同样强烈。我总可以搬出理性解释：我父母没给我树立良好的伴侣榜样，也许我天生缺少长期恋爱的基因。可到这年纪，真的？这借口既无聊又可悲。

The repulsion, fights and jealousy and drama was just as powerful. I can always turn to my rationalizations. My parents didn't give me a great model for partnership, and maybe I'm missing the gene for long term love. But at this age, really? That excuse seems both boring and tragic.

我的心理医生说我要别再问问题，要踏实下来，学会去爱。别再寻找那种轻松、震撼人心的真爱故事了，他说。那只是个幻觉。我告诉他，这是我的工作，我半带笑意，好像我也懂这个笑话。可之后我又听到一个这样的故事，于是我又开始怀疑。

My shrink says I need to stop asking questions, buckle down, and learn to love. Quit searching for the easy, mind blowing true love story, he says. It's an illusion. It's my job, I tell him, half smirking as if I'm in on the joke. But then I go out and hear another of these stories, and I wonder.

有时我觉得这只是一个语言上的挑战。爱是一个名词，是一件你找到或找到你的珍贵之物。就像很多最终出现在我署名下的故事那样。我们像彼此的母亲一样对待对方，一位藏族女性这样形容她的丈夫，因为在另一世里，我们可能真的是。他们的婚姻始于一个美国佛教徒为了移民，然后他们开始对彼此产生感情。

Sometimes I think it's just a linguistic challenge. Love is a noun, something precious that you find or that finds you. Like in many of the stories that end up beneath my byline. We treat each other like we're each other's mothers, said a Tibetan woman of her husband, because in another life, we might have been. Our marriage to an American Buddhist began as a way to immigrate, and then they started to have feelings for each other.

我们的心比大脑更早知道，她告诉我。我记下这句话，反复读了好几遍，最后决定把它作为他们故事的结尾。这至少会让一些读者眼眶湿润。但这些“爱作为动词”的故事，并不像那些从天而降的爱情那样耀眼或好莱坞。前几周，一位女性对我说，单身还要见我们这些恩爱鸟，一定很痛苦。

Our hearts knew before our brains, she told me. I wrote it down and read it over several times before deciding to make that the final line of their story. It will guarantee moist eyes, at least from some readers. But these love as verb stories are not as flashy or Hollywood esque as the ones in which love falls from the sky. It must be torture, a woman told me the other week, to be single and meet all of us lovebirds.

她在四十多岁时与高中时的死对头重燃旧情。他们没用互联网，就在离成长地三千英里外偶然相遇。她蜷在沙发上，对着新真爱的肩膀轻声细语。我从公寓、房子、拖车离开，已经在构思专栏。但我也在琢磨，这种事会发生在我身上吗？

She had hooked up after forty years with her high school nemesis. They had randomly crossed paths without the help of the Internet, 3,000 miles from where they had grown up. Curled on her couch, she cooed into the shoulder of her new true love. I drive off from apartments, homes, trailers, and I'm writing the column already. But I'm also thinking, will anything like that ever happen to me?

他们到底有多幸福？我把钥匙插进点火器，心想回家的路上会不会有人穿过车前，我们四目相对，然后心领神会。做这份工作的这些年，我从约会到认真交往再到无人可交又回到约会。可我仍拿着笔记本问：人们怎么如此确定对方就是那个人？还是他们其实不确定，只是做了决定？

How happy are they really? I put the key into the ignition and wonder if, on the way home, someone will cross in front of my car and our eyes will meet and we will just know. In the years I've had this job I've gone from dating to seeing someone to seeing no one to dating again. Yet I continue to ask, notebook in hand, how do people know with such certainty that their person is the one? Or do they not know and just decide?

我拿钱就是来琢磨这些的，但即使不给钱，我也会透过那扇窗，好奇医生和太太之间到底发生了什么。一个局外人，永远在窥视，永远好奇。结果正是这点让我完美胜任这份工作。因为在我多年恋爱和写专栏之后，那种完全结合的亲密，对我来说仍像宇宙边界一样神秘。我看不见，但我知道它一定在某个地方。

I'm paid to wonder about these things, but even if I weren't, I'd still be looking through that window questioning what was passing between that doctor and his wife. An outsider, always peering in, ever curious. Which it turns out is what makes me perfect for this job. Because after all my years in relationships, and the years of writing my column, the commonness of being fully coupled, that level of intimacy, is still as mysterious to me as the boundary of our universe. I can't see it, but I know it must be out there somewhere.

你有什么感受？嗯，这真是一段——很美的——你读完之后有什么触动？

What's coming up? Yeah. It's a great it's a beautiful what's coming up for you having just having just read it?

嗯，我就觉得这是一篇——太美的文章，因为它好像——它包含了困扰我们所有人的一切。因为一旦陷入爱情，就像我曾经恋爱时，突然觉得你对一切都有了答案，对吧？你会觉得，哦，原来这么简单，这么容易。

Well, I just feel like it's just such a it's such a beautiful piece because it's like it is I feel like it contains everything about what troubles all of us. Because the thing is, like, once we're in love, like, feel like once I was in love, I think that suddenly, like, it feels like you have answers to everything. Right? You're like, oh, it was so easy. It was so simple.

一切都发生了。

It all happened.

你会忘记——忘记所有那些让你走到今天的经历。

Forget you forget, like, everything Oh, that got you

嗯。

yeah.

如果这篇文章的作者，Louise Raffkin，来采访你——嗯——告诉我你会怎么跟她讲你的经历，关于

If the author of this essay Yeah. Louise Raffkin, were to interview you Mhmm. Tell me how you would tell her about your experience of

坠入我

falling I

觉得那段经历真的让我明白，世上没有所谓的一见钟情，但有一听钟情。真的，我坚信这一点。

think that that experience really taught me that there's no such thing as love at first sight, but there is something as love at first conversation. Tell me. I really believe that.

跟我说说

Tell me

这个故事。事实就是如此。我是在Ed Rallaby基金会的驻留项目中遇见我丈夫的。第一次见他时，我想我才24岁。

the story. That's really what it was. So I met my husband at the Ed Rallaby Foundation's residency. And when I first saw him, I think I that was 24.

嗯，我当时

Yeah. I was

22岁。

22.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在那里，我想我是去写下一部伟大的美国戏剧的。嗯，他也是。嗯。

And I was there, and I think that I was there to, like, write the next great American play. Yeah. You know? And so was he. Mhmm.

对吧？所以我们都在那儿，有点像，我们要写一部伟大的美国戏剧。我记得他比其他人来得晚。然后我知道的一件事是，我当时想，哦，他看起来好年轻，你知道，就是那种，呃，你懂的。

Right? So we're both there, we're kind of like, we're gonna write a great American play. I think that he showed up later than everybody else. And then something that I know is true is that, like, I thought, like, oh, he looks so, like, young and, you know, like, ugh, you know.

你24岁，看着一个22岁的人。你会想，他只是个宝宝。

You're 24 years old looking at a 22 year old. You're like, he's just a baby.

很刻薄吧？但然后我觉得我们在聊天。

Mean You know? Like but and then I think that we were talking.

等等。你觉得他可爱吗，还是根本没往那方面想？你只是觉得他年轻。

Hold up. Did you think he was cute, or you just didn't even register? You just thought he was young.

嗯，我只是觉得我当时想，我不知道。我觉得那时候我根本没考虑比我小的男生。对。然后总之，我遇见了他，然后我觉得我们坐下来，我想我们在说，要不要读读彼此的剧本？于是我给了他我的第一部剧本，他也给了我他的第一部剧本。

Well, I just thought I was like I don't know. I think I think at that time that I wasn't really thinking about guys who are younger. Right. And then anyway, so I met I met him, and then I think that we sat down, I think we're talking, and I think they're like, should we read each other's plays? So I gave him my very first play, and he gave me his very first play.

我们在蒙托克的一个谷仓里坐着读，我觉得我们差不多同时读完。

And we sat at this barn in Montauk where we just read it, and I think we finished at a similar time.

就像肩并肩坐在那个谷仓里？

Like, side by side just in this barn?

对。面对面坐着。嗯。然后我们抬头，看着彼此，想，哦，这只是竞争的感觉吗？就是这样？

Yeah. Like, across from each other. Mhmm. And then we, like, looked up, And then we, like, looked at each other, and we thought, like, oh, is it just a feeling of competition? Is that what it is?

然后我们在聊天，我们想，哦，我觉得我们当时正在坠入爱河。很明显我们要么成为死敌，要么结婚。真的很明显

And then we were talking, and we're, like, oh, I think they were falling in love. It was so clear that we were either going to be like nemesis or get married. Like, it was very clear

因为为什么那么明显？我要追问你这一点。

because Why was it clear? I'm gonna push you there.

我觉得这是因为我们虽未谋面，却仿佛经历了彼此的人生。因为写作最神奇的地方在于，你能以一种非常具体、亲密的方式了解作者。就像我从未见过路易丝·拉夫金，但读完这篇文章后，我仿佛认识了她，希望当你看《唯物者》或《过往人生》时，也能在某种程度上感受到我。

I think that it's because of what we experience in each other's place without us having ever met. Because part of what's amazing about a piece of writing is that you get to know the author in this, like, very specific, intimate way. Just like how I feel like I've never met Louise Raffkin, but now that I've read this, I feel like I know her in a way that, like, I hope that when you watch materialists or when you watch past lives, you also feel like, you know me in some way.

这篇《现代爱情》文章的作者路易丝，总是不断追问她的伴侣：‘你怎么知道？你真的知道吗？你是什么意思？’她想知道，能否分享一个你动摇的瞬间？

The the author of this modern love essay, Louise, just kinda keeps pressing her couples like, but how did you know? Did you really know? What do you mean? Like, maybe can you share a moment where you felt, where you felt yourself waver in that knowledge?

嗯

Well

我就是在问，有没有哪一刻你曾怀疑过？

Was there ever a moment of doubt, basically, is what I'm asking.

怀疑的瞬间。这真有趣。我觉得怀疑‘这个人是对的吗？’的美妙之处，就在于那个人总会用行动证明他们确实是对的。

Moment of doubt. It's that's so interesting. Because I feel like it's like the beautiful thing about doubting whether is this the right person? Is that is the way that that person's gonna always prove that they are. Right?

因为这是多么浪漫的念头。所以一开始你们并不真正了解彼此，完全可能会想：‘我不知道，我不确定，这是那个人吗？’

Because what an amazing romantic thing. So, of course, in the beginning, you don't know each other that well. So it can it's fully possible for you to be like, well, I don't know. I don't know. Like, is that is this the thing?

是这个人吗？你一直在试探。然后答案终于出现：‘是的，我知道就是这个人。’所以怀疑的存在，只是为了印证信念。

Is this the thing? And you're always sussing it out. And then, of course, the answer comes, and it's like, yeah. I know it's the right person. So doubt is there just so that the faith can be affirmed.

这篇文章的作者对爱的本质有很多思考，甚至从语言上。她问：‘爱是一个名词吗？是你找到的东西，像一件物品？’

The author of this essay wonders a lot about the nature of love, even linguistically. She's like, is love a noun, something you find, right, like a thing?

嗯。

Mhmm.

还是爱是一个动词，是你去做的事情？你怎么看？

Or is love a verb, something you do? Where do you fall on that?

它肯定是动词。对。它不是名词。

It's definitely verb. Yeah. It's not a noun.

我喜欢你那种“它就是动词，没得商量”的语气。

I like how you just have it's you're not gonna it's a verb. Okay.

它是动词。我倒是希望它是名词，因为那样一来，所有关于“获得”“贫民区男友”之类的说法就都能说得通了。可惜它是个动词，这就难多了。

It's a verb. I I wish it was a noun because then we can then all this language around acquisition, ghetto boyfriend. Right? Like, the language around that would make sense. But unfortunately, it's a verb, and it's a much harder thing.

对吧？它就像一种日常练习。嗯。你得每天都去做。嗯。

Right? It's like an everyday practice. Mhmm. You have to go and do it every day. Mhmm.

对吧？所以我觉得当你恋爱时最棒的一点就是，你会想：真幸运，我每天都去做这件事。真幸运，我每天都得去做它。

Right? Then I think what's amazing when you're in love is that you get to be like, oh, how lucky that I do it every day. How lucky I get to do it every day.

它可以是很小的事。嗯。最近——具体一点呢？一个具体的“爱是动词”的瞬间？你能指出某个爱在房间里发生的时刻吗？

What is and it can be small. Mhmm. What is the last what is something specific? A specific love as verb moment? Can you point to, like, a moment of love being a room?

今天发生了什么？我把 AirPods 落在公寓里了，然后——我知道这听起来很烦——我下楼进电梯，我丈夫和我要出门，我说：我忘了 AirPods，得回去拿。

What happened today? My thing is, like, I left my AirPods in my apartment, and I came down I know so annoying. And then I came down to the elevator. My husband and were going somewhere, and I was like, I forgot my AirPods. I have to go back up.

他说：我上去拿。

And he said, I'll go up.

这不就有了。我会不会因为 AirPods 哭啊？

Well, there you go. Am I gonna cry because of AirPods?

我当时想，嗯，对。然后，他说：不，我上去。他就像，你懂的，你懂的。

But, like, I'm like, well, yeah. And then, no. I'll go up. He was like, you know, you know.

他刚刚就冲上去拿AirPods，为什么？

He just did he just ran up for the AirPods because why?

因为他知道我对要做这件事感到烦躁，然后他说，我宁愿自己去做，也不想让你有一点点不开心。

Because he knew that I was annoyed about having to do it. And he said, I would rather I would rather do it than to annoy you even a little bit.

你知道吗？

You know?

你有没有

Did you

感受到被爱？

feel loved?

你呢？

Did you?

这就是问题所在，对吧？我希望它更像——我总是有这种感觉，我在拍《过往人生》时也有这种感觉。我觉得，最浪漫的对话之一发生在东村的小卧室里。

That's the thing. Right? It's like I wish that it was more like I I always feel this, and I feel this I felt this in when I was making past lives too. I'm like, the one of the most romantic conversations is happening in the tiny bedroom in East Village.

我正想说，这个AirPods的瞬间感觉太真实了，完全不像我们通常在电影里看到的那种爱情。这是一种小小的

I was just gonna say this moment of the AirPods, it feels so real, and it really feels kind of opposite of the love we traditionally see in the movies. This is a small

小小的。

Small.

日常瞬间。我跑上去，没事的，你懂吧？

Everyday moment. I'll run up. No worries. You know?

是啊，我的看法是，很多所谓的浪漫其实都是在向我们推销，对吧，比如包下整家餐厅，因为我们看了太多类似的桥段。每一档相亲节目里都有弦乐四重奏。

Yeah. And my thing is, like, it's, like, so much of what romance is is being sold, right, to us as, like, rent out a whole restaurant because we watch, like, so much. Right? There is, like, every dating show. They're, like, for a string quartet.

对吧？就是那种套路。就像电影里物质男哈利带她去的地方。佩德罗·帕斯卡的角色。

Right? It's like that kind of a thing. And it's like, of course, like, all the places that in my movie materialist Harry takes her to. Right? Pedro Pascal's character.

总带她去那些美轮美奂的地方。我当然喜欢高档餐厅，非常喜欢。但我的观点是，如果你对坐的人连帮你拿一下AirPods都不愿意，那这家餐厅就只是个餐厅而已。我有点

Just takes her to these amazing, beautiful places. Of course, I love I love going to nice restaurants. I love it. But my thing is it's like, well, it's if you're sitting across from somebody who wouldn't grab the AirPods for you, right, then actually, that restaurant is just a just a restaurant. I have kind of a

有趣的事要分享。这篇散文写于2009年2月。哦，我联系了作者路易丝·拉夫金，她给了个很棒的后续。

fun thing to share with you. Yeah. This essay was written in 02/2009. Oh. So I reached out to the author, Louise Ravkin, for an update, and she has a great one.

她说，自从写完那篇散文后，我谈了一段十三年的恋爱。我们2012年在朋友安排的相亲中认识，其实二十年前就在同一堂武术课上见过。

She said, since writing my essay, I have been in a thirteen year relationship. I know. We met on a blind date in 2012 set up by friends. We'd actually met twenty years before in a martial arts class, and

有张我们在

there is a picture of us in

同一堂课的照片，但我没印象，她却记得我。我们约会了三次，我想分手，她却说根本不知道我们已经在一起了。

the same class. But I didn't remember meeting her, but she remembered me. We went on three dates, and I tried to break up with her. And she says she didn't know we were together.

太棒了，这位防守型女王我爱了。

Love it. Love this guarded queen.

真的，防守型女王，防守。

Literally. Guarded queen. Guarded.

我们没住在一起，大家觉得这很有意思，也说是个好主意。她说，我仍然觉得爱情很神秘，但惊讶于这段关系让我成长和学习了这么多。

We don't live together, which people find interesting and also say is a good idea. She says, I still find love mysterious, but I have been surprised by how much I have grown and learned from being in this relationship.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们有一位很棒的治疗师。笑脸。

We have a good therapist. Smiley face.

我喜欢这个更新。

I love this update.

我知道。这难道不是典型的浪漫喜剧结局吗？

I know. Doesn't it doesn't it really go rom com ending?

哦，这是一个完美的浪漫喜剧结局。

Oh, it's a perfect rom com ending.

Celine Song，非常感谢你。

Celine Song, thank you so much

你玩得很开心。

You're having so fun.

非常有趣。Modern Love 团队包括 Amy Pearl、Christina Joseph、Davis Land、Emily Lang、Jen Poyant、Lynn Levy、Riva Goldberg 和 Sarah Curtis。本期节目由 Amy Pearl 制作。由 Davis Land 和 Lynn Levy 编辑。Modern Love 主题曲由 Dan Powell 创作。

It was so fun. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl. It was edited by Davis Land and Lynn Levy. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.

本期节目的原创音乐由 Dan Powell、Diane Wong、Marion Lozano、Pat McCusker 和 Roman Nimisto 提供。我们的视频团队包括 Brooke Minters、Felice Leone、Michael Cordero、Sawyer Roque 和 Sophie Erickson。本期节目由 Daniel Ramirez 混音，录音室支持来自 Maddie Masiello 和 Nick Pittman。Modern Love 专栏由 Daniel Jones 编辑。Mia Lee 是 Modern Love Projects 的编辑。

Original music in this episode by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Roman Nimisto. Our video team is Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Cordero, Sawyer Roque, and Sophie Erickson. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或一个微爱情故事，我们的节目简介里有说明。我是 Anna Martin。感谢收听。

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

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