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我开启跨平台对战了。
I'm opening up cross play.
我一直在跟丹对战，他是《纽约时报》的同事。
I've been playing against Dan, my colleague at The New York Times.
猫又走了一步。
Cat's played another move.
哎呀。
Ugh.
她用了‘stoop’，拿了36分。
She played stoop for 36 points.
我手里有个Z，能得10分。
I've got a z, which is 10 points.
我猜‘Tenga’应该不是个词。
I'm guessing Tenga is not a word.
我们看看。
Let's see.
Tenga真是个词。
Tenga is a word.
哦。
Oh.
丹下了他最后一手。
Dan played his last turn.
咱们看看谁赢了。
Let's see who won.
差距太小了，不过我还是赢了。
It's so close, but I did win.
《纽约时报》的游戏订阅用户可以免费使用Crossplay，这是我们首款双人文字游戏。
New York Times game subscribers get full access to Crossplay, our first two player word game.
现在订阅，享受我们所有游戏的特别优惠。
Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games.
立即订阅
Love now
还有永远。
and forever.
爱。
Love.
爱。
Love.
比什么都强大。
Was stronger than anything.
为了爱。
For the love.
爱。
Love.
我比什么都爱你。
And I love you more than anything.
爱。
Love.
爱就在那里。
There's love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
欢迎收听《现代爱情》。
This is Modern Love.
今天，我采访了作家兼记者克拉克-弗洛里。
And today, I'm talking to writer and journalist, Clark-Flory.
特蕾西从小最大的愿望就是有个妹妹。
Growing up, all Tracy wanted was a sister.
她一直不停地求父母给她生个妹妹。
She'd beg her parents for a sister all the time.
她看得出妈妈很不开心，但她不明白为什么。
And she could tell it made her mom upset, but she didn't understand why.
后来，当特蕾西16岁的时候，她妈妈把她叫到跟前，告诉了她真相。
Then when she was 16 years old, Tracy's mom sat her down and told her the truth.
特蕾西确实有个妹妹。
Tracy did have a sister.
她妈妈自己还是个 teenager 的时候怀了孕，被送走秘密生下了孩子。
When Tracy's mom was a teenager herself, she got pregnant, and she was sent away to have the baby in secret.
她再也没见过那个孩子。
She never saw the baby again.
这次谈话之后，特蕾西脑子里冒出了无数个问题，多年来一直琢磨着，那个她从没见过的妹妹，到底去哪儿了。
After this conversation, Tracy had a million questions, and she spent years wondering what happened to this sister she never knew.
今天在节目中，特蕾西来跟我讲，她是怎么终于找到答案的——不只是关于妹妹，也关于她妈妈。
Today on the show, Tracy's here to tell me how she finally got some answers, not just about her sister, about her mom too.
特蕾西·克拉克-弗洛里，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Tracy Clark-Flory, welcome to Modern Love.
非常感谢你邀请我来。
Thanks so much for having me.
特蕾西，在你的新书《我母亲的女儿》里提到，你16岁那年，妈妈黛博拉决定告诉你她过去的一个大秘密。
Tracy, in your new book, My Mother's Daughter, you write that when you were 16, your mom, Deborah, decided to tell you a big secret from her past.
你能带我回到那个时刻吗？
Can you take me into that moment?
到底发生了什么？
What what happened?
是的。
Yes.
那会儿我才刚开始吃避孕药没几个星期。
So this was just a couple weeks after I had gone on birth control pills.
我觉得这个细节挺重要的，得提一下。
I feel like it's relevant to mention.
那时候我有个男朋友。
I had a boyfriend at that time.
她把我叫到厨房的餐桌旁，说：我有件事要告诉你。
And she sat me down at the kitchen table, and she said, I have something to tell you.
这事儿很严重。
It's serious.
我18岁那年发生了关系，然后怀孕了。
When I was 18, I had sex and I got pregnant.
我爸爸把我送到了一所未婚妈妈收容所。
My father sent me away to a home for unwed mothers.
我生了个女儿，后来把她送人领养了。
And I had the baby, a girl, and I placed her for adoption.
感觉就像脚下突然塌了个洞。
And it felt like a trapdoor had opened up underneath me.
我从小是独生女，你知道吧？
I had been raised as an only child, You know?
我们家就三口人，我、我妈和我爸。
We had our little family trio, me, my mom, and my dad.
我小时候可一直求着，求了无数遍，就想有个妹妹。
And I'd actually grown up begging, like begging for a sister over and over again.
我特别想要个妹妹。
I wanted a sister so bad.
不是哥哥弟弟，就是妹妹。
And not a brother specifically a sister.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
就是有个兄弟姐妹就行。
Just a sibling.
明白了。
Okay.
我从来没求过要个兄弟姐妹。
Was I never begged for a sibling.
我就一直求着要个妹妹。
I begged for a sister.
而且小时候，我还编过故事，想象爸妈偷偷藏着一个妹妹不告诉我。
And, you know, I'd even, growing up, like, had concocted stories in my head about a secret sister that my parents were keeping from me.
我的意思是，你接着说。
I mean, keep going.
好。
Okay.
行。
Okay.
对啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我记得晚上躺在床上时，编了个故事，说家里走廊尽头住着一个我爸妈藏起来的妹妹。
Like, I so I I remember laying in bed at night, and I had this story that there was a secret sister who lived down the hall in our house.
后来想想，这根本说不通啊。
And thinking like, oh, that doesn't make any sense.
你说，为啥我从来没见过她呢？
Like, you know, why wouldn't I see her?
那白天她去哪儿了呢？
And, you know, where is she during the day?
我记得晚上睡觉时屏住呼吸，想听听她有没有呼吸声。
And but I remember holding my breath at night and trying to hear her breathing.
现在回头想想，我其实早就隐隐感觉到了些什么。
Like And so, you know, in retrospect, of course, I'm like, well, there I clearly had some sense.
一种身体自带的直觉吧。
Of some of embodied knowledge.
让我问一句，你妈妈有没有透露过她过去发生过什么事？
Or let me poke at that, like, had you had any indication from your mom that something like this was in her past?
这事是不是完全把你吓到了？
Did it totally shock you?
确实把我吓懵了。
It it did totally shock me.
但话说回来，我一直有种挥之不去的神秘感，没错。
And yet, I would say that I had had this insistent sense of a mystery Sure.
一个秘密。
Of a secret.
所以，我有个很早的记忆，那时候我才八岁，和爸妈一起坐在车里。
And so like, one early memory that I have is being eight years old in the car with my parents.
我爸在开车，我妈坐在前排副驾驶，我一直在求他们给我生个妹妹。
I my dad was driving, my mom was in front of me in the passenger seat, and I was begging for a sister.
那会儿我好几次都这么求他们，我就问：‘为什么我不能有个妹妹？’
It was one of those many times where I was begging for a sister and I said, why can't I have a sister?
我就想要个妹妹。
I just want a sister.
我妈一听就沉默了，我看不到她的脸，因为她就坐在我正前方。
And my mom fell silent, and I couldn't see her face because she was directly in front of me.
但我看见我爸看了她一眼。
But I saw my dad look at her.
他赶紧接话，打破沉默，说：‘你知道吗，你妈怀你的时候得了子痫前期，那会儿怀孕特别危险。’
And he quickly, like, you know, jumped to fill the silence and was like, well, you know, when your mother was pregnant with you, she had preeclampsia, and it was a very risky pregnancy.
那可是会要命的。
It was life threatening.
他们不想再试了。
We didn't wanna try again.
我知道这个故事。
And I knew that story.
他们以前就跟我说过。
They've told me it before.
就是这个故事。
Story.
我知道这个故事。
I knew that story.
这说得通。
And and it made sense.
他们不想再要孩子，我完全能理解。
It made sense that they wouldn't wanna try again.
但我能感觉到，事情没那么简单。
But I could tell there was something more.
所以那时候，几年后你16岁了，你妈妈把这个秘密告诉了你。
So back in this moment, you know, years later at age 16, your mom has told you the secret.
我猜她告诉你的时候，你脑子里肯定一下子冒出无数个问题。
I must assume that when she tells you this, a million questions are running through your mind.
我当时根本反应不过来，太震惊了，真的。
Well, so I didn't I mean, I was just in so much shock Sure.
就在那一刻。
In that moment.
那种感觉，就像马上要晕过去一样。
You know, it was one of those those moments where you almost feel like you're going to pass out.
是啊。
Yeah.
我记得我妈后来又补充了一些之前没说的事。
And I remember my mom sort of adding information to what she'd already said.
她说自己在一个收养登记平台上注册了信息，以防哪天她另一个女儿想找到她。
She said that she'd added herself to an adoption registry in case her daughter ever wanted to come find her.
她解释说那时候的收养都是不公开的，也就是说她根本不知道自己把孩子送走后，孩子的下落是什么。
She explained that adoptions were closed back then, which, you know, meant that she had didn't know where her baby had ended up.
对的
Mhmm.
所以她才去那个收养登记平台留了自己的信息，就是说如果她女儿哪天想找她，就能联系上了。
And that she'd added herself to this adoption registry so that she could find her if she ever wanted to.
孩子能找到你
Baby could find your
妈妈？
mom?
孩子能找到她的。
Baby could find her.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Uh-huh.
而且她说，有一天可能会有人打电话到家里找她。
And that someone might call the house looking for her one day.
但到现在还没人打过。
But no one had so far.
确实没人打过。
No one had.
还有，我得说一下，她告诉我，这一切都发生在六十年代。
And also, should mention, like, she told me that all of this had happened in the sixties.
我出生在1984年。
I was born in 1984.
明白了。
Okay.
所以我这才意识到，我有个姐姐，她比我大二十岁，你知道吧？
So so it was I was learning that I had a sister out there somewhere and that she was twenty years older than me, you know?
然后我妈妈告诉我，她孩子的父亲是黑人，来自尼日利亚，他们是在大学认识的。
And my mom then told me that the father of her baby was black, that he was Nigerian, that he she met him at college.
明白了。
Okay.
我妈妈是白人。
My mom is white.
我也是白人。
I am white.
我记得她说过，因为种族差异，她未婚怀孕这件事在当时更受非议。
And I remember her saying something along the lines of that race made her unwed pregnancy that much more taboo.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你先别急，这信息量也太大了吧。
I mean, let let me just zoom out for a second and say, this is this is a lot.
你本来以为只是要来场性教育谈话，结果一下子冒出这么多事。
This is so much to learn when you think you're gonna have, like, a a sex talk.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，她要是跟你谈避孕，你肯定以为就是个安全套的事儿。
I mean, if she's sitting you down about birth control, you're like, alright, a condom.
我懂的。
I get it.
你明白我说的吧？
You know what I mean?
没错。
Like Right.
就是这种事。
This kind of thing.
但是，
But,
我的意思是，这
I mean, it
但这里头还有很多别的东西。
it it's there's so much more here.
我想把这些点串起来看看。
And I wanna kinda connect the dots.
她跟你说的是意外怀孕的事。
It's like she was telling you about this unplanned pregnancy.
所以你感觉，避孕措施就像个开关，一触发就引发了一连串反应，因为你正进入青春期。
So it seemed to you like the the birth control sort of triggered and set off this waterfall because you were coming into your sexuality.
是这样吗？
Is that Yes.
对吧？
Is that right?
对。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢你这么讲，因为这简直就是我的性教育课。
Well, I love that you the way you frame that because, like, it's like this was my sex talk.
虽然我们以前也聊过很多次性的话题。
Even though we talked about sex many times before.
你知道的，我在加州伯克利长大，爸妈都是嬉皮士。
You know, I grew up in Berkeley, California with a couple of hippie parents.
家里对性特别开放，一点不避讳。
It was like a very sex positive household.
但要说最深刻、最让我记住的一次性教育，还是这一次。
But when I think about like, certainly the most impactful sex talk that we ever had, the most memorable one, it would be this.
这明显是因为我开始吃避孕药才发生的。
And it was very clearly in response to me going on birth control.
她担心我的未来，怕历史重演，所以才说这些。
And in response to her fears about me and my future and the potential of history repeating itself, I think.
我觉得，其实她根本不想跟我谈这些。
You know, I think she in many ways, I think she didn't want to tell me.
她一直在躲，但最后还是觉得，为了我好，必须说了。
I think she was avoiding telling me and I think that this was a moment where she felt like she had to, for my own good.
而且那时候我明显感觉到，我妈特别害怕。
And mostly, could tell, you know, my mom was terrified in that moment.
她那表情，就像是在说：别讨厌我。
She had this look of like, please don't hate me.
别评判我。
Like, please don't judge me.
那一刻我看得出来，她真的很痛苦。
And I could see in that moment that she was in a lot of pain.
我想她是怕我怎么看她——作为我妈，作为一个正在学着面对这些的母亲。
And, you know, I think she was scared of what I would think of her, as as my mom, as a mom learning this.
那你当时怎么想她的？
And what did you think of her?
那时候我 consciously 没想那么多。
Consciously, in that moment, I don't know.
我不确定自己有没有做出什么判断。
I don't know what I don't know if I made any sort of judgment.
那时候在厨房餐桌旁，我突然意识到，好像我们家一直有个说不清的阴影，是我长大过程中慢慢拼出来的。
I think in that moment at the kitchen table, it was like, I it's like growing up, I was like, kind of making out this kind of shadow in our family.
就在那场对话里，我知道了她曾经把孩子送人收养，那一刻我才明白，原来那个阴影的来源就在这儿。
And then in in that moment of that conversation, the revelation that she had placed a baby for adoption, it was like I was suddenly seeing what had cast that shadow.
你知道吗？我突然看懂了那个谜团。
You know, it was like I saw the mystery.
我看到了一些一直存在、却怎么都对不上号的东西。
I saw the presence of something that was there that didn't quite add up.
是啊。
Yeah.
从小到大，我总觉得我妈有一部分，是对我封闭的。
You know, there was like a part of my mom that was not available to me growing up.
比如说，她经常把自己关在房间里，锁上门，我就看着她这么做。
Like, you know, she would also like, there are other things like I would I would watch the way that she disappeared into her room and, lock the door.
她一天到晚好几次都在抽大麻。
And she would smoke weed multiple times a day.
所以我也就不那么惊讶了。
And it was like So maybe I'm not so surprised.
对啊。
Right.
没错。
Right.
你懂的吧。
You know?
我觉得我妈这个人，远比我了解的要复杂得多。
And it's like, there was this sense of like, my mom is a person who exists beyond what I know of her.
小时候我觉得特别神秘，她明明可以是个特别在场的妈妈，可突然间就不见了。
In this way that's really mysterious to to me as a kid because she could be such a very present mom, but then she would be kind of disappeared.
她会突然把自己锁在房间里，我就知道，她身上肯定还有我没见过的另一面。
Like, there was part of her that was suddenly secreted away in her room and, you know, and so I just knew that there was more to her than she had shared.
你懂的。
You know,
我突然意识到，这种对话可能很多人都没法感同身受。
it strikes me that there's a well, certainly this conversation is probably not relatable to many.
这确实是一种特别的经历。
This is a very sort of exceptional experience.
但有一件事我觉得是共通的——就是那种突然意识到父母也是普通人的时候，他们有过去，有秘密，也在扛着各种事儿，有时候就得躲进房间把门反锁。
But one thing that does feel universal are these moments when we kind of like we become suddenly aware that our parents are people, that they have a past, that they have secrets, that they're dealing with shit, that they sometimes need to go into a room and lock the door.
是啊。
Yeah.
你提到的这些事，真的会让人冒出一堆问题。
I mean, you're saying these these things that that bring up so many questions.
对吧？
Right?
未婚妈妈的收容所？
Home for unwed mothers.
那是什么地方？
What is that?
那地方在哪？
Where is that?
谁去那种地方？
Who goes there?
那到底是什么意思？
What did that mean?
我的天，这问题也太多了吧。
I mean, so many questions there.
我说啊，她父母的事，我光是想想就冒出一堆疑问。
You know, her parents I'm thinking I'm just thinking about all of these questions.
你妈的父母，肯定也在你脑子里转来转去吧。
Your mom's parents, I mean, must have been running through your mind.
她才18岁，事情一下子全砸过来了，真是压得人喘不过气。
She's 18, so she's at it's just like, there's so much.
你还在说，你看着你妈，她怕得要命，生怕被人指指点点。
And you're also describing how you're looking at your mom, and she's terrified of judgment.
你觉得那时候或那里，适合问这些问题吗？
Did this seem like a place or a time where you could ask these questions?
不适合。
No.
对啊。
Yeah.
确实不适合。
It didn't.
我是说，我脑子里全是问题。
I mean, I was full of questions.
对吧？
Right?
没错，就是这样。
Like, yeah, indeed.
未婚妈妈的收容所到底是什么地方？
What what is a home for unwed mothers?
这到底是什么意思啊？
Like, what does that even mean?
就在那一刻，我突然明白，她是被羞辱着送走的，某种被藏起来、避而不谈的事情正在发生。
I I really understood in that moment that it that she was sent away in shame, that there was some aspect of being hidden away that was happening.
但我真不懂那些地方到底是个啥地方。
But I didn't understand what those the homes really were.
我当时啊，心里头一堆问题，只是没问出来。
And I didn't you know, I had so many questions.
但那时候，我记得我妈问我：‘你有什么问题要问我吗？’
But in that moment, I remember my mom saying, do you have any questions for me?
我问的唯一一个问题，现在回想起来还挺有意思的：‘你有没有想过她？’
And the only question I asked, and it's kind of interesting looking back, was do you ever wonder about her?
这真是个特别有同理心的问题，我觉得。
Oh, that is a really compassionate question, I think.
是啊。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这么多问题里，唯独这个，我觉得非问不可。
I mean, of all the questions, that was the one that I I guess I felt I had to ask.
她只是轻声细语地一口气说：我每天都会想到她。
And she just said in this like gush of a whisper, I think about her every day of my life.
这真的让我特别感动。
Oh, I'm so moved by that.
天哪。
Wow.
那其实又多了一层顿悟——因为从那以后，我总觉得妹妹其实一直都在我们身边。
It was I mean, that that was just this other additional layer of revelation because it was like my sister has always been in the room with us in a way.
那时候我脑子里突然浮现出一个画面：天啊。
I remember picturing in that moment like, oh, wow.
我妈妈每天起床准备上班的时候，心里想的都是这个走失的女儿。
Like every day that my mom's gotten up and gotten ready for work, she's thought about this lost daughter.
你有没有觉得，你妈妈她……我是说，你提到‘羞耻’这个词。
Did you get the sense that your mom I mean, there's you you you say shame.
你有没有觉得她心里有遗憾？
Did you get the sense that she had regrets?
你有没有感觉到她在表达这方面的感受？
Did that Was that something that was coming across to you?
我
I
我没觉得她有后悔的意思。
didn't get the sense of regret.
我当时的感觉是，她把这件事当成自己该承担的责任。
What The sense I got in that moment was that she sort of took this sense of personal responsibility.
就是觉得，事情发生了，是我做的，可我也无能为力。
Like that it was like, this happened, I did this, And that there was nothing she could do about it.
我特别清楚地记得，她说有时候人们会请私家侦探，想找回那个年代被收养的孩子。
And one thing I really clearly remember from that conversation is she said that sometimes people hire private detectives to try to find, their babies from this era of adoption.
对吧？
Right?
她说，这不属于我的权利。
And she said, but it's not my right.
这真不是我该做的。
It is not my right.
我不想打乱她的生活。
I don't want to interrupt her life.
我当时感觉，她最希望的是女儿能拥有一个幸福的家庭，而自己贸然出现反而会打扰到她。
And I think her I I got the sense in that moment that her greatest hope for her daughter was that she had had a wonderful family life and that she would be an intrusion upon Your
她妈妈会成为打扰。
mom would be an intrusion.
我妈妈会打扰到她的生活。
That my mom would be an intrusion upon her life.
是的。
Yeah.
哦。
Oh.
我的意思是，随着你长大，你和你妈妈有没有再聊过这件事？
I mean, as as you as you got older, did you revisit this conversation, you and your mom?
这些年里，你有没有更多地了解她的故事？
Did you did you learn more about her story over the years?
了解得很少。
Very little.
这样啊。
Okay.
最重要的一次是在那之后，我记得我当时二十岁出头，正和爸妈坐在客厅看HGTV的节目。
The most significant occasion was sometime after, I believe I was in my early twenties, and I was sitting in the living room with my parents, and we were watching like a show on HGTV.
老套路了。
Classic.
我妈特别爱园艺，而我呢，就爱看真人秀。
My mom was like a big gardener and, you know, I loved reality TV.
所以——
And so
太配了。
Perfect match.
简直是她兴趣的完美结合。
Perfect union of her interest.
没错。
Totally.
完全对。
Totally.
我们还真把这事给办成了。
And we made it work.
对啊。
Mhmm.
那是个花园改造节目。
And it was like a garden makeover show.
他们把一个特别死板、规整的花园彻底翻新了。
And they'd made over this garden in this, like, sterile and regimented way.
我当时就心想，天啊，这地方跟精神病院似的。
And I went, ugh, it looks like a mental institution.
然后我说，这事儿真说不清楚。
And then I said, and I can't explain this.
我真的不知道该怎么形容。
I don't know how to explain this.
问这种问题，听起来也太怪了吧。
This is such a bizarre question to ask.
是啊。
Yeah.
但说到底，我到底知道些什么，自己却没意识到呢？
But again, it's kind of like, what did I know without knowing?
对啊。
Sure.
我就问他们俩：你们俩有没有去过精神病院？
I said, have either of you been to a mental institution?
我
I
我的意思是，这问题你完全可以问家人。
mean I mean, it's a question that you could ask a family.
对。
Sure.
行吧。
Okay.
是啊。
Yeah.
这个我就不跟你争了。
I'm just gonna give that one to you.
说实话，你这哪像在关心人啊，纯粹就是搭话罢了。
Honestly doesn't seem that you're like, okay, as well you're kinda making conversation.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯嗯
Uh-huh.
然后就沉默了一会儿。
And and then there was a pause.
接着我妈妈说：‘宝贝……’
And then my mom said, Well, honey.
然后她把电视静音了。
And she muted the TV.
她告诉我，领养之后她特别崩溃。
And she tells me that in the wake of the adoption, she was so distraught.
她情绪低落到极点，医生觉得她有自残的危险。
In her devastation, her therapist thought that she was a threat to herself.
他说，你知道的，我记得她跟我说，我不是真想自杀，但他还是把她送进了精神病院。
He, you know, and I remember her saying, wasn't suicidal, but he thought that I was, and that he committed her to a mental institution.
天哪。
Oh, my gosh.
就是那种上锁的病房。
Like a locked ward.
所以当时我明白的是，她在领养之后陷入了特别黑暗的状态。
And yeah, so what I understood then was that, you know, she, went to a very dark place, in the wake of of the adoption.
她后来还提到过那种感觉是什么样的吗？
Did she share any more about what that was like?
还是说我们只是又把电视打开，继续看下去了？
Or was it like we turned back on the TV and we kept going?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们真的又把电视打开了。
I think I think we literally turned the TV back on.
我的意思是，我觉得我们当时有那么一瞬间。
I mean, I think I think that we had a moment.
我觉得我们就那么坐着，什么也没说。
I think we sat with it.
我记得有几次我确实主动追问了她一些后续的问题。
I know there were a couple moments where I did ask her some additional follow-up questions.
说到“追问”这个词，我得提一句我后来当了记者。
And I just even just using the word follow-up question, I have to point out that I became a journalist.
但这事儿说起来还挺有意思的——我当了记者之后，不管遇到什么事都能第一时间抛出跟进问题，对的。
But it's so it's, like, funny as a journalist who always has a follow-up question immediately in the moment Mhmm.
可当初那些要紧的关头，我却什么都问不出来。
To not in these key moments have had a follow-up.
你懂吧？
Right?
我当时特别紧张，陪她聊这些的时候一直揪着心，特别担心她。
And I know that I felt a lot of nervousness, kind of going there with her because I was worried for her.
而且要去直面她的那些痛苦，对我来说也很难受。
I also think it was painful for me to kind of know more of her pain.
我们稍后继续。
We'll be right back.
我写的一些歌，都是从钢琴开始的。
Some songs that I've written, I started on the piano.
《All I Want for Christmas Is You》就是这么写出来的。
That happened with All I Want for Christmas Is You.
如果你还没听出来，那就是玛丽亚·凯莉。
If you couldn't tell, that is Mariah Carey.
我是约翰·卡拉蒙尼卡，纽约时报《30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者》项目的评审之一。
I'm John Karamonika, one of the critics behind The New York Times' 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters Project.
我们采访了名单上的一些创作者，包括泰勒·斯威夫特——她已经很久没拍过这种视频了。
We interviewed some of the songwriters on our list, including Taylor Swift, who hasn't sat for a video like this in a long time.
这些对话可不一般。
These are not ordinary conversations.
你看了这些视频，就能了解他们创作时那些很少人能接触到的私密方法。
You're gonna watch these videos and learn about intimate approaches to craft in ways that you rarely have access to.
我妈给我买了一个笔记本，我写字特别小，就是怕别人偷看我写的东西。
My mom had got me this notebook, and I was just writing it really small because I didn't want anybody to read what I was writing.
好的。
Okay.
Jay Z 年轻时的笔记本。
Jay Z's teenage notebooks.
我真想看看那些。
I need to see those.
免费观看所有访谈视频，了解更多关于《纽约时报》‘30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者’项目，请访问 nytimes.com/30greatest 或使用我们的 App。
Watch all the video interviews for free and check out the entire 30 greatest living American songwriters project at nytimes.com/30greatest or in the app.
也告诉我们，你是否认同我们的选择。
And let us know if you agree with our picks.
我打赌你不会同意。
I bet you won't.
接下来我们换个话题，因为你二十多岁的时候，你妈妈还健在，后来却因癌症去世了，是这样吗？
We're gonna take a turn here, because in your twenties you were still in your twenties when you lost your mom to cancer.
对吗？
Is that right?
是的
Yes.
对
Yep.
我真的很抱歉。
I'm really sorry.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你觉得这个问题很难吗？我只是想知道，在你妈妈走之前，她有没有对你这个女儿感到安心？
Do you think this is a really tough question, but I wonder if do you feel like your mom had reached a sense of peace about this daughter, before she passed?
或者
Or
你有没有感觉到，她对这段经历心里是怎样的？
did you have a sense of where she was, I guess, with this part of her story?
是的。
Yeah.
我记得她临终前跟我提起过，说那真的让她感到释然了、接受了，她当时说，我只是太难过了，怕她会错过这么多。
I remember towards the end of her life, her saying something to me about where that really did express a sense of resolution or acceptance, where she said, you know, because I was just so upset about what she would miss.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得她跟我说，我很庆幸自己能拥有——对不起。
And I remember her saying to me, I'm just so glad that I got to have sorry.
我很庆幸自己拥有了我的两个爱人。
I'm just so glad that I got to have my two loves.
她说的是我跟我爸。
And that was referring to me and my dad.
现在想想，我都会哭，因为我知道她还有一份爱，没能来得及拥有。
And I think it makes me cry now because I think about her third love that she didn't get to have.
我现在也在想，就在我说这句话的这一刻，她对那两个爱人的感激，是不是也部分源于那份她没能拥有的爱？
And I wonder now, you know, even just in this moment of saying that, like, is there part of her gratitude for her two loves that is about in part about the love she didn't get to have?
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所以她心里一直怀着一种感恩，就是我拥有过这一切，尽管伴随着失去。
And so she's, you know, had this gratitude of, like, I had this alongside the loss.
天哪。
Oh, my gosh.
你说到两个爱的人时，我突然想到，你之前提过那种始终萦绕在你们家、萦绕在她身边的阴影，虽然不能确定，但我觉得那种感觉在那一刻确实存在。
When you said two loves, I was like, there is a you talked about the sort of shadow that was always with you, with the family, with her, and and certainly, I mean, again, can't know for sure, but seemed to you to be present in that moment.
你妈妈去世十年后，你才决定做DNA检测，想找她第一个孩子——你的姐姐。你觉得为什么之前一直没去找她？
About ten years after your mom died, you decide to take a DNA test to try to find her first baby, your sister, why do you think you hadn't tried to find your sister before then?
是的。
Yeah.
我记得，尤其是在妈妈去世后，我一直在想这件事。
I mean, I I remember thinking about this, especially in the wake of my mom's death.
因为我觉得，在她去世前，找姐姐这件事好像该由她自己去完成。
Because I think before she died, it felt like it was hers to pursue.
而且
And
她走之后，我一度想过请私家侦探。
after she died, I considered the possibility of hiring a private detective.
那时候我想起几十年前我妈说过的话，她说她没这么做，是因为觉得没权利去打扰女儿的生活。
I thought And about then I remembered what my mom had told me decades earlier, which was that she hadn't done that because she felt like it wasn't her right to intrude on her daughter's life.
所以我最终没去请侦探。
And so I decided against that.
对。
Mhmm.
那时候消费级DNA检测刚兴起，特别受关注。
And this was when consumer DNA tests were starting to really emerge and get a lot of attention.
当然。
Sure.
我突然想到，这或许是个找到我妹妹的办法。
And it occurred to me that it could be a way to find my sister.
但我身边有很多报道科技行业的记者朋友。
But I'm also a person who's friends with a lot of journalists who cover the tech industry.
我呢，确实很在意那些关于隐私的警告，完全听进去了。
And I, you know, kind of heeded the warnings around privacy concerns Totally.
就是做DNA检测这事。
Around DNA tests.
对。
Mhmm.
一想到一家市值几十亿的公司手里握着我的DNA，我就觉得特别不舒服。
I found it kind of disturbing the idea of a multibillion dollar company having my DNA.
那为啥让你这么不舒服？
And why is that disturbing?
开玩笑的。
Just kidding.
没错。
Right.
那关于
What about
这个？
this?
太吓人了。
That's creepy.
是的。
Yeah.
当然了。
For sure.
没错。
For sure.
应该没什么问题。
It should be fine.
对。
Yeah.
看着挺正常的。
Seems fine.
对
Mhmm.
所以我一直拖着没办。
And so I kinda put it off.
我就觉得，这感觉不对劲。
And I was like, it doesn't feel right.
后来我突然想到，这正是你找到你妹妹的方式。
And then it occurred to me, like, this is the way that you would find your sister.
而且只有当她愿意被找到时，这种方式才有效。
And it's a way to find her only if she wants to be found.
你不会就这样突然闯进她的生活。
This you wouldn't be busting into her life in Yeah.
如果是她自己在找你，那就不一样了。
An unwanted This would be she was searching.
而且，你说对吧？
And, you know, why not?
所以我直接掏出手机，下单做了个检测，搞定。
And so I literally pulled out my phone, ordered a test, boom.
完事。
Done.
管他呢。
And, you know, screw it.
把我的DNA拿过来吧。
Have my DNA.
对吧。
Right.
我确实担心，但我更想找到我妹妹。
Am concerned, but I wanna find my sister more.
所以这主意没错，但我更在乎我妹妹。
So basically idea, but I care more about my sister.
完全没错。
Totally.
他得有个了断。
He needs to an end.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
我往试管里吐了口水。
I spit into a vial.
然后扔进了邮筒。
I dropped it in a mailbox.
两周后，我正和克里斯托弗还有昆恩在车里。
Two weeks later, I was in the car with Christopher and Quinn.
我的确。
My Yep.
我老公和我儿子。
My husband and my son.
昆恩坐在后座的儿童安全座椅上打瞌睡。
Quinn was snoozing in the back seat in his car seat.
那时候他才四岁。
He was four years old at the time.
然后我收到了安cestry发来的一条消息。
And I got a message from Ancestry.
上面说：你的DNA检测结果出来了。
And it said, your DNA results are in.
天哪！
Oh my gosh.
我点开了。
And I tapped.
我是真没这么用力点开过任何一封邮件。
I mean, I've never tapped so hard on an email before in my life.
你说巧不巧？
And of course, like, I'm like, what are the odds?
对啊。
Right.
这几率也太巧了吧？
What are the odds?
你说，她可能有这个基因检测报告吗？她会去做检测吗？
Like, why you know, she could have one, you know, would she even take a test?
再说了，她会选同一家公司吗？
Two, would she take it with the same company?
我一看排名最高的匹配对象，是个叫凯西的女士。
Immediately, my number one top match is a woman named Kathy.
她完全是个陌生人，但我一眼就认出她了。
And she is a total stranger, but I recognize her instantly.
她的脸，那个小小的头像照片。
Her face, her little profile photo.
我发现她的眉毛弧度，跟我一模一样。
I see she has the same arch in her eyebrows as I have.
她那高高的颧骨，让我想起我妈妈那边的奶奶，还有我妈妈的那种气质。
She had like these high cheekbones that remind me of my maternal grandmother, and this essence of my mom.
天哪。
Wow.
我第一次感觉，我就是在看我妈妈。
Immediately, I feel like I'm looking at my mom
我的天啊。
Oh my god.
自从她走后，头一回有这种感觉。
For the first time since she died.
我点开她的简介，里面写的那些事，明摆着就是我妹妹。
And I clicked through to her bio, and she lists some details that are like very clearly, this is my sister.
我的天啊。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Oh my god.
你现在感觉怎么样？
How are you feeling?
你能相信吗？
Can you believe it?
真的假的。
No.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我也是不敢信。
Me No.
我也是差不多。
Almost me neither.
我的意思是，
I mean,
这真的太不可思议了。
it's it's it is No.
太神奇了。
Miraculous.
看，这就是她的头像照片。
Here she is, this little profile photo.
凯西。
Kathy.
她是有名字的。
She has a name.
有名字的。
A name.
真有名字。
A name.
这么久了，大家只叫她‘宝宝’，你知道的吧？
This whole time, it's just the baby, you know?
我妈妈的女儿，我妹妹，现在她有了自己的名字。
My mom's daughter, my sister, and now she has a name.
我就记得，克里斯托弗正安安静静地开车回家，我脑子里却炸开了锅，突然意识到：我找到我妹妹了。
I just remember, you know, Christopher is just innocently driving the car home and I'm like, having this internal combustion moment and I'm like, I think I found my sister.
那你呢，你那个资料上写的是不是……
And And does your
你的个人资料上写着，你在找家人吗？
profile say like like, I I'm looking for my family?
她的资料到底写了什么？
Or what did her profile say?
对。
Yeah.
她资料上说，她知道自己小时候被收养了，嗯。
Her profile said that, like, she knew she had been placed for adoption Okay.
意思是……
Mean
六十年代的事。
in the sixties.
她说，家人就是她的整个世界，永远都欢迎更多人加入。
And she said, family is my world, and there is always room for more.
哦。
Oh.
这话听着就像在向我招手呢。
Which, you know, felt like an invitation.
没错。
Absolutely.
她明确表示愿意被人联系，肯定的。
Is open to being contacted, certainly.
那你后来怎么做的？
So what did you do?
她提交了自己的DNA样本。
She sent in her DNA.
她的资料看着挺开放的，但你心里是不是也有点紧张，不敢主动联系她？
She has this profile that seems like she's open, but was part of you also nervous to get in touch?
我压根没想过这些。
I didn't think about any of that.
我是真的一点都没想，这挺奇怪的，因为我平时什么事都爱琢磨，老爱过度思考。
Like, I really truly didn't, which is so weird because I think about everything, overthink about everything.
但就在那会儿，我还没下车，刚要进家门，就已经在手机上给她打字了。
And but in that moment, before I even got out of the car and went into our house, I was tapping out a message to her.
对。
Mhmm.
我心里想着，我觉得我们是姐妹。
And being like, I believe that we are sisters.
天哪。
Wow.
我的天啊。
And, I mean, God.
然后我就，你知道的，把消息发出去了。
And then I, you know, I sent the message.
那天剩下的时间简直像旋风一样，我和克里斯托弗一直在消化这个事实——我刚找到了我妹妹。
And the rest of that day is kind of this whirlwind where I'm processing with Christopher the fact that I just found my sister.
奎恩其实也听到了一些片段。
You know, Quinn is also kind of hearing some of this.
他才四岁，所以我们得想办法用他能懂的方式跟他解释。
He's only four years old, and so we're trying to kind of explain to him in ways that would make sense for a four year old.
但整个过程可能就花了三个小时左右。
But it's only maybe three hours
一切都发生得太快了。
Everything's before happening so fast.
太快了。
So fast.
感觉像过了好几年、几十年似的。
Like, it's like years, decades
天哪。
Wow.
几十年啊。
Decades.
结果就在短短几个小时里，一切突然飞速展开。
And then suddenly, in like the hyper speed of a couple hours, all of this is unfolding.
生活有时候就是这样。
Life does that sometimes,
确实如此。
It does that.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这样。
It does that.
然后，我手机响了。
And, yeah, my phone rings.
我妹妹打来的，她的声音温暖又自信。
And my sister, my sister is on the phone, and she has this, like, warm and confident voice.
她问我：‘那你能告诉我什么？’
And she goes, So what can you tell me?
因为她根本不知道具体情况，我就跟她说，我妈妈黛博拉·克拉克18岁那年怀了孕，把孩子送人收养了。
Because she has I mean, she doesn't know anything about the and so I said, when my mom, Deborah Clark, was 18 years old, she got pregnant and she placed that baby for adoption.
我觉得那个孩子就是你。
I believe that baby is you.
我立刻意识到，得赶紧让她知道，我们的妈妈已经去世了。
And I remember very quickly feeling like I needed to let her know that our mom had died.
我能感觉到，她那一刻正满怀期待，或许以为自己马上就要见到亲生母亲了。
I was very aware that there was this like moment of anticipation where she was she potentially had this opportunity to hope that she was about to meet her mother.
我就是觉得，得一口气把所有事情都告诉她，不能拖。
And I just felt like I needed to kind of, like, swiftly, like, let her know all of it at once.
于是我告诉她，她的妈妈已经不在了。
And so I told her that her mother had died.
你刚才是不是说‘我们的妈妈’？
Did you say our mother?
我当时没说‘我们的妈妈’。
I didn't.
我那时候实在拿不准，不知道该用什么说法来跟她讲，
I because it was I was so uncertain about what language she
是这样的，对。
used Yeah.
我就是因为这个才问你的。
At That's why I asked.
特别不确定，
So uncertain.
我记得当时说的是妈妈已经过世了，
And I think I said that she died.
对，
Mhmm.
没错
Mhmm.
但这件事挺有意思的。
And but this was interesting.
凯西说：‘我不太想问，但我妈是怎么去世的？’
Kathy said, I hate to ask this, but how did my mother die?
我妈妈。
And it My mother.
是的。
Yeah.
我妈妈。
My mother.
听到她这么自然地称呼她，一点都没犹豫，我真是又震惊又感动。
And it was, I mean, oh, shocking and thrilling to hear her refer to her in that way without any kind of caveat.
她没说‘我的生母’或者‘亲生母亲’，就说‘我妈妈’。
Like, wasn't my birth mom or my biological mother, it was my mom.
天啊。
Wow.
我们就把各自生活的基本情况都聊了，你知道的。
And we went over the basics of our lives, you know.
她告诉我她57岁，住在亚特兰大，管着一个呼叫中心，有三个儿子和七个孙子孙女。
She told me that she was 57, that she lived in Atlanta, that she ran a call center, that she had three sons and seven grandkids.
真厉害。
Wow.
她跟我说，她是被一对特别棒的收养家庭带大的。
She told me that she was raised by an amazing adoptive family.
对。
Mhmm.
她说，我这一生过得特别有福气。
And she said, I've lived a blessed life.
我这一生真的特别有福气。
I've lived a very blessed life.
我就信了她的话。
And I, you know, I believed her.
我的感觉就是，她说的那些话特别真实。
Like, the I it just it came across that that was true.
我觉得光听你描述Kathy，我大概就能猜到答案了。
Did did I mean, I think I might know the answer to this question just from how you're describing Kathy.
不过在你们早期的交谈中，你有没有感觉到Kathy对她亲生妈妈把她送养这件事，心里有怨恨或不满？
But in this or in early conversations with her, did you get the sense from Kathy that she was carrying any anger or resentment at your mother for for placing her up for adoption?
对。
Mhmm.
没有。
No.
这其实让我挺意外的。
Which, you know, was surprising to me.
当然。
Sure.
Kathy提起她的养母时，语气特别温暖、特别感激。
You know, the way that Kathy spoke of her adoptive mom was very glowingly.
她和玛格丽特特别亲近。
She was extremely close to her, Marguerite.
她经常说，妈妈让她觉得在这个世界上很安全，跟她在一起特别有安全感。
And, you know, she really talked about how her mom made her feel safe in the world, how she had a great sense of security with her.
我还想提一下，她的养母是黑人。
I also think it's important to note that her adoptive mom was black.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Mhmm.
她很早就提到，养母给了她很强的黑人女性身份认同。
And she talked about, very early on, about how her adoptive mom really gave her a strong sense of herself as a black woman.
所以她的童年大部分时间都觉得自己真正属于那里。
And, you know, so she lived so much of her childhood really feeling like she belonged.
天啊。
Wow.
这可能是你这辈子听过最好的事了。
That is the best thing you could possibly hear ever.
没错。
Yeah.
当然了。
Absolutely.
凯西问了哪些关于你和你妈妈的问题？
What kind of questions did Kathy ask about your, as in your and her mom?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我很好奇她到底想了解些什么。
I'm curious what she was curious about.
是啊。
Yeah.
我的意思是，她什么都想知道。
I mean, she wanted to know everything.
那当然了。
Of course.
我就觉得特别有压力，得好好向她介绍咱们妈妈。
Which it's like, I felt such a sense of pressure to sort of like present our mom to her.
简直就像在宇宙尺度上给她写 LinkedIn 简历一样。
Like like I was writing her LinkedIn profile on a cosmic scale.
对 Kathy 来说，了解咱们妈妈的唯一途径，就是通过我。
Like, it's like, this is like, the only way for Kathy to know our mom is through me.
所以我得尽力让她明白，妈妈是个怎样的人。
And so, like, I have to try to convey to her who she was as a person.
这压力也真不小。
That's a lot of pressure too.
确实压力很大。
It is a lot of pressure.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以我努力在那些早期的对话里，给她大致描绘一下妈妈是个什么样的人——有艺术气质，富有创造力，特别有同理心，善良，还特别爱园艺，大自然就是她的教堂。
So I try and you know, I tried in those early conversations to kind of just give her a big sweep of who she was, that she was artsy and creative and so deeply empathetic and kind and that she was an avid gardener, and that nature was her church.
而且她特别聪明，头脑非常敏锐，性格还挺强硬的。
And like, she was incredibly intelligent, very sharp, kind of tough.
她可不会对任何男人低头。
She wouldn't take any shit from any man.
我记得跟Kathy说过这话，她就说：我觉得咱们俩的妈妈肯定特别合得来。
And I remember saying that to Kathy, and Kathy saying, I think our moms would have gotten along very well.
天啊，你们四个要是聚在一间屋子里，那场面肯定超棒。
God, the four of you in a room would be very cool.
哦，当然。
Oh, yes.
天哪。
Oh, my gosh.
要是能这样就好了。
If only.
要是能这样就好了。
If only.
是的。
Yeah.
我尽力把她活生生地呈现出来了，你知道的。
I tried to bring her to life as best I could, you know?
我相信你把她表现得特别好，而且我也想知道，你和凯西以后什么时候能见面。
I mean, I'm I'm sure you did her justice, and and I also wanna know, eventually, you and Kathy meet in person.
我特别想听你讲讲，当你真正见到这个妹妹、和她抱在一起的时候，是什么感觉。
And I do want I would love for you to describe to me what it is like to hug, be in the presence of this sister who is real.
我的意思是，她就在你面前。
I mean, she's right in front of you.
那感觉怎么样？
What was that like?
是啊。
Yeah.
简直太不可思议了。
It was incredible.
我们之前几个月一直发邮件、打电话，互相联系。
I mean, we had spent months kind of emailing back and forth and talking on the phone.
后来我终于订了去亚特兰大的机票。
And then I finally booked a trip out there to Atlanta.
我记得那天晚上湿度特别大，蝉鸣声一片，她站在车道尽头冲我喊了一声‘嗨’，然后就朝我走过来，我们抱在了一起。
And I remember, like, stepping out of my rental car, and it was like a humid night, and the cicadas were buzzing, and she, like, called hello to me from the top of her driveway, and she just, like, walked across the driveway to me and we hugged.
我记得她比我矮一点，她脑袋蹭到我脸颊的那个高度，跟我妈一模一样，完全一样。
And I remember feeling she's a little bit shorter than me, and her head brushed my cheek in exactly the same kind of way that my mom would, like, they're the same exact height.
我记得那一刻，我是在抱我自己。
And I remember feeling like I was hugging her for myself.
我当时是在替我们的妈妈抱她。
And I was hugging her for our mom.
是啊。
It
太神奇了。
was magic.
我的意思是，那种特别神奇的时刻。
I mean, it was one of those magical moments.
听起来确实很神奇，因为本来就是啊，那种连接和治愈的感觉，方方面面都特别美好。
It sounds I mean, it sounds magical and because it is and beautiful and connective and healing in all these ways.
对。
Mhmm.
我还在想，会不会也有什么困难啊？比如哪里有过摩擦之类的？
And I also wonder if there was any difficulty, like any any I don't know, like, if there was some friction somewhere
是的。
Yeah.
对你来说，这一切的发现和连接，是什么感觉？
For you in all of this discovery and this connection.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
简直就是情绪过山车啊。
I mean, it was a total roller coaster of emotion.
从那个周末，和妹妹盘腿坐在她床上，面对面，终于有了我们俩从没拥有过的姐妹时刻，转头就去见了她的三个儿子、七个孙子孙女，情绪大起大落，简直没法说。
Like, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows, like, you know, to go that weekend from, like, sitting cross legged on my sister's bed facing each other, having this, like, moment, the sisterly moment that I'd never gotten to have, to then meeting her three sons and her seven grandkids.
天哪。
And oh my gosh.
太不可思议了。
How incredible.
但那周末也有一段低谷，因为一方面，我感觉像是重新找到了妈妈——
But then there was also this kind of fall that happened at one point during that weekend because on the one hand, it felt like I was finding my mom again in the world.
她的亲生女儿，亲生的孙子孙女，亲生的曾孙曾孙女，全都在这儿了。
Like, here are her biological her biological daughter, her biological grandkids, her biological great grandkids.
哇。
Wow.
但与此同时，我又感觉再次失去了她。
At the same time, it felt like I was losing her again.
因为
Because
他们并不属于她，你知道吧？
they weren't hers, you know?
他们根本不认识她。
They they didn't know her.
他们也没在她身边长大。
They hadn't grown up around her.
所以，他们身上流着她的血，但终究不是她的孩子。
And so, yeah, they were of her, but they weren't hers.
所以那段时间，心里特别难受，是啊。
And so there was there was a lot of pain in that Mhmm.
有点矛盾吧。
Kind of contradiction.
对吧？
Right?
就是那种发现的美，可紧接着又是直面失去的痛苦。
Like the beauty of discovery, but then the the the pain of really reckoning with the loss Yeah.
那种痛也一直都在。
That was also there.
是的。
Yeah.
认识了凯西，了解了她的故事，让你对妈妈怀孕那段时间、她去过的那家产院、那家精神病院，产生了更大的好奇。
Meeting Kathy, learning more about her story makes you curious, even more curious about this time in your mom's life when when she was pregnant, the home that she went to, the mental institution.
就在这时候，你决定亲自去寻找答案。
And it's at this point that you decide to to go searching for answers yourself.
对。
Yes.
我一听说凯西过着幸福的生活，就像她自己说的那样，突然间就能回头去思考我妈妈1965年的经历，开始问很多问题了。
I think that as soon as I learned that Kathy had lived a blessed life, as she put it, suddenly, was able to look toward my mom's experience back in 1965 and have questions about it.
因为那些一直缠着我的问题——我妹妹还好吗？她到底在哪？——一下子全都有了答案。
Because, you know, all these pressing questions I'd had about my sister, and is she okay, and where is she, these were answered suddenly.
于是，我终于能对妈妈的事产生好奇了。
And so suddenly, I could have curiosity about our mom.
我们马上回来。
We'll be back in just a moment.
请继续关注。
Stay with us.
找到凯西后没几天，关于堕胎合法化之前未婚妈妈收容所历史的书，就一堆一堆地堆到了我桌上。
Truly within days of Finding Kathy, like books about the history of homes for unwed mothers in the pre Roe era started piling up on my desk.
我是个记者。
I am a journalist.
我天生就爱查资料。
I'm inclined to research.
然后我就一头扎进去疯狂查资料，很快就发现我妈妈居然是那约三百万人群中的一员——我的天。
And I, like, dove in obsessively and very quickly learned that my mom was one of an estimated 3,000,000 women who Wow.
真的。
Yeah.
这些美国女性在1950年到1975年间，都把自己的孩子送去领养了。
Who placed their babies for adoption between 1950 and 1975 in The United States.
其中还有150万人被送到了未婚妈妈收容所里。
And one point five million of those women were sent away to homes from unwed mothers.
这个数字太惊人了。
That's a staggering statistic.
这
It
确实是。
is.
真的太惊人了。
It is.
后来我才知道，这些所谓的未婚妈妈一旦开始显怀，就会被悄悄送进那些机构。
And what I came to learn is basically that as soon as these quote unquote unwed mothers started to show Mhmm.
她们被关在那些机构的高墙后面，不让人看见。
They were hidden away behind the walls of these homes.
人们觉得，得把她们怀孕的事瞒着邻居、亲戚和朋友，让她们待在那儿，直到生完孩子，再把孩子送人。
And the idea was that they the fact of their pregnancy would be hidden from neighbors and extended family and friends, that they would stay there until they could give birth and place their babies for adoption.
然后她们就回去了。
And then they'd come back.
她们会假装什么都没发生过。
They'd sort of
是啊。
Mhmm.
躲开这种羞耻感。
They'd hide from this shame.
回去之后，就继续过自己的日子。
And then they come back and then just keep living their lives.
是的。
Yeah.
他们被告诉了假话，被欺骗了。
And they were told, they were lied to.
他们被灌输说，以后能放下一切，就当这事从来没发生过。
They they were told that they would be able to move on and forget as though it had never happened.
他们被引导着重新开始，要当上体面的女性、母亲和妻子，重新走向婚姻和核心家庭的生活。
And the idea was that they would have a second shot at becoming proper women and mothers and wives, that they would be kind of redirected toward marriage and the nuclear family.
具体到你妈妈的故事。
Specifically about your mom's story.
你妈妈跟你说过，她爸把她送走了。
Your mom had told you that your that her father had sent her away.
对。
Mhmm.
关于她在那里的具体经历，你还了解到什么？
What more did you learn about her specific experience in this home?
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，通过阅读这些第一人称的证词，我学到了很多。
I mean, I learned so much from reading the first person testimony
对。
Mhmm.
就是那个年代的事。
From this era.
而且，说起来真让人难过，这些女性的经历大多都差不多。
And, you know, sadly, so many of these women's experiences are so much the same.
对吧？
Right?
所以，虽然我没法去问妈妈她具体的经历，但当时普遍存在一种情况：这些收养都是被施压的，是被迫的，有时候甚至是强迫的。这些女性常常被叫去坐着，递给她一张纸，让她写一份能给这个孩子提供什么的清单。
And so, while I couldn't go and ask my mom about her specific experience, there was this pretty universal experience, which was that these adoptions were pressured, that they were coerced, that they were sometimes forced, that that these women were oftentimes sat down and, you know, given a piece of paper and and they were told, write a list of what you can offer this baby.
然后再写一份已婚夫妇能给这个孩子提供什么的清单。
Now write a list of what a married couple can offer this baby.
因为这些婴儿随后都被交给已婚夫妇收养。
Because these babies were then placed for adoption with married couples.
这整个系统都是有意设计的，为了强化婚姻和核心家庭，尤其是白人社会的羞耻感。
And it was all a very intentional system meant to reinforce marriage and the nuclear family, and specifically the And white shame.
核心家庭，对。
Nuclear Mhmm.
没错。
Yeah.
当时被送走的大多数女性都是白人，因为黑人未婚母亲那时被默认要自己养孩子，部分原因是种族主义刻板印象，觉得黑人女性性欲过剩，根本不配得到救赎。
And most of the women who were sent away were white because black unwed mothers at that time were expected to raise their own children, in part because of racist stereotypes about black women's hypersexuality, which ruled out the possibility of redemption.
但白人女性则被视作可以被救赎的，通过这些机构，再被引导着走进婚姻。
But white women were slated for redemption, you know, through these homes and then through being rerouted into marriage.
但说真的，这一点太重要了。
But, I mean, it's so this is this is really important.
你在做这项研究、深入阅读这些第一手证词的时候，你大概一直以为，你妈妈把妹妹凯西送人，是她自己的选择。
It's like in this research and in in immersing yourself in these firsthand accounts, you know, you'd always kind of assumed, it sounds like, that your mom giving your sister Kathy up for adoption was a choice.
是的。
Yes.
但你现在发现，这根本不是那么简单。
But you're finding out it's that does not seem like
没错。
Exactly.
完整的真相。
The full story.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我以前总觉得她只是碰上了特别糟的处境。
I'd kind of seen her as like, that she'd faced a bad predicament Yeah.
她是在六十年代还是个 teenager 就怀孕了。
That it was that she got pregnant as a teenager in the sixties.
但后来我意识到，她其实是被卷入了这个专门用来控制女性性行为的系统里，你知道吧？
But then I came to see that, like, actually, she'd been pulled into the gears of this system that was really designed to control women's sexuality, you know?
这根本谈不上什么真正的选择。
And that there was not what I would call a choice involved.
真正的选择，得有实实在在的选项才行。
Like, that that choice requires, like, meaningful options.
对啊。
Mhmm.
而且
And
就像你说的，那些生了孩子的女性，人家告诉她们：‘你忘了这事吧，继续过日子就行’，却一点支持都没有，这确实也是。
then this notion, like you said, that they were told these these women who had these babies, you'll forget this, and you will move on and offered no support, which also Yeah.
可能吧，你说说看，你妈妈后来——
Probably I mean, you tell me, but your mom's later Yeah.
情绪崩溃了，心理上真的撑不住了。
Breakdown, emotional Yeah.
崩溃这个词，可能更能让你理解她当时经历的一切。
Breakdown probably makes more sense to you, what she went through there as well.
没错。
Absolutely.
对。
Mhmm.
后来我发现，很多被送走的女性都饱受心理健康问题的折磨。
And and I came to find that so many women who were sent away struggled with mental health issues.
她们有创伤后应激障碍，有药物滥用，说白了，都是被创伤了。
They struggled with PTSD, substance abuse, you know, they were traumatized.
我这才恍然大悟，原来我妈也是被创伤了。
And I that was completely enlightening to understand my mom as having been traumatized.
对吧？
Right?
她被这个系统伤害了，而这个系统当年伤害了太多女性，还硬生生拆散了母子，你懂的。
That she was traumatized by this bigger system that traumatized so many women in that era, and that separated babies from their mothers too, you know?
这彻底改变了我对她经历的理解。
It completely shifted my understanding of what she'd been through.
我突然意识到，你正在一点点了解这些事。
It's it's it strikes me that you're learning all of this.
你对妈妈的经历有了更深的体会。
You're getting such a deeper understanding of your mom's experience.
我觉得，你最想跟这个人聊聊这些的，应该是你妈妈。
And I would think the person you wanna talk to about all of this is your mom.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
但问题就在于，失去所爱的人，最大的遗憾就是——你再也无法跟他们说了。
But but, I mean, this is the great sadness of losing someone we love is that you I mean, you can't.
你现在才明白这一切，可她已经不在了。
You're learning all of this, and she's not there.
那一定很难受，是吧。
That must have been Yeah.
那一定特别艰难。
That must have been extremely hard.
是啊。
Yes.
确实如此。
It was.
我觉得这种痛苦的一部分还在于，我特别希望她能见到自己的女儿，希望她能看到我们一家人团聚。
And I think part of the hardness too was like, of course, there was the piece of like, ugh, so desperately wanting her to get to meet her daughter, wanting her to see us coming together.
但另一方面，她似乎从来没能真正理解自己经历了什么。
But there was also the piece of her not ever really, I think, coming to understand what had happened to her.
我觉得她从未真正明白这个系统到底是怎么回事。
Like, I don't think she ever really fully came to understand what this system was.
但你呢，过了这么多年，你才慢慢发现，她其实属于一群女性——这么说可能不太准确，但你妈妈的经历并不是孤例。
But you in, you know, years later, you're uncovering that she is part of a, I mean, not a generation is probably the wrong word, but this group of women, your mom was not alone in her experience.
这本身也让人感到很有力量。
And that feels powerful too.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
因为她从来都没有
Because she never
真正明白这一点。
got to understand that.
嗯。
Yeah.
没错。
No.
我觉得她一直背负着内疚。
And I think she carried her guilt.
她从来都没能疗愈自己的创伤。
And, never she never got to heal her trauma.
她从来没机会去正视当年到底发生了什么。
She never got to, yeah, come to terms with with what had really happened back then.
她一直怪自己。
She blamed herself.
要是她能有机会跟那些经历过几乎同样事情的其他女性建立联系，该多好。
If she had ever had the chance to kind of find community with these other women who'd gone through pretty much the exact same thing.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
你说，要是她能多活几年，她会不会最终慢慢理解这一切呢？
You know, I I who knows if she'd gotten to live for longer, like, what her journey would have been like in terms of coming to understand this past.
我愿意相信，她迟早会明白这些的。
Like, you know, I like to believe that she would have eventually come to this kind of understanding.
现在她不在了，我却站在这里，试着讲述她是谁、她经历了什么，这感觉真的有点奇怪，你说是吧？
And it is it feels bizarre to be here without her and kind of trying to tell her who she was and what happened to her, you know?
你觉得你妈妈，德布·克拉克，要是能看到你和凯西现在这样，会说什么？
What do you think your mom would say, Deb Clark, if she could see you and Kathy now?
我觉得她会说：‘这可太逗了。’
I think she'd say, what a hoot.
对啊。
Yeah.
就像她常说的，我觉得她看到咱们俩聚到一起，一定会特别开心。
You know, as she would say, you know, I think she would have such a sense of delight seeing us come together.
你有没有觉得，你做这一切都是为了你妈妈？
Did you feel like all of this you were doing for your mom?
是啊。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这感觉有点微妙，我好像在同时用三种身份爱着我妹妹。
I mean, there's this it's like, there's this interesting triangulation, I feel like, where I I am loving my sister as my sister.
我以妹妹的身份爱着她，也以妈妈女儿的身份爱着她。
I'm loving my sister as my mother's daughter.
同时作为一个母亲，我也会站在妈妈的角度去心疼、珍惜我的姐妹。
I'm also loving my sister for my mother as a mother myself.
原来是这样，
Oh,
对的。
yeah.
你能明白吧？
You know?
但我也像是把妈妈的爱传递给凯西一样，跟她讲讲妈妈生前是什么样的人，讲讲妈妈当年是怎么把她满溢的爱都倾注在我身上的。
But then I'm also kind of like bringing my mom's love to Kathy, like sharing with her who she was and kind of how she even poured her excess of love, you know, into me.
你就是个纽带啊
You are a conduit
对
Yeah.
承载着所有这些爱的纽带
Of all this love.
是的。
Yeah.
我想，这是我最后一个问题了。
Here's, I guess, maybe my final question.
母亲节快到了。
Mother's Day, of course, is coming up.
对。
Mhmm.
没错。
Mhmm.
你对此有什么感受？
How do you feel about that?
母亲节你会做些什么特别的吗？
Do you do anything special for Mother's Day?
说实话，每年母亲节都让我措手不及。
You know, to be honest, Mother's Day just sideswipes me every year.
是的。
Mhmm.
每年都是这样，我知道，我真的知道。
It's like every year, I know it's I I know.
日历上每年都写着呢，我清楚得很。
It's on the calendar every I know.
你知道吧，我知道这一天迟早会来。
You know, it's like I know it's coming.
我知道每年这一天都特别难熬。
I know that every year, it's hard.
我知道每年一到这时候，就会被对妈妈的思念彻底淹没。
I know that every year, I I am just kind of overtaken by grief for my mom.
可每年我又总抱着点希望，觉得今年会不一样，会好一点，毕竟我现在也当妈了。
And yet every year, I kind of think that it's gonna be different, and that it'll be fine, that I'm a mom now too.
我可以和孩子一起庆祝，这让我觉得有点不一样。
Like, it's it's I get to celebrate with my kid.
但这一天，我渐渐学会了接受。
But it's it's it's just one of those days that I I'm starting to accept.
这一天，我会感到悲伤，而悲伤其实就是爱，你知道的，悲伤就是爱。
It's a day where I am feeling grief, which is also love, you know, grief is love.
我觉得，对我而言，母亲节永远都会伴随着对妈妈的思念和对她的爱。
Like, that that is gonna always, I think, be part of Mother's Day for me is the loss of my mom and the love for my mom.
所以，我敢肯定，今年也会是这样。
And, so I am pretty certain it's gonna be that way this year.
但你知道吗？
But guess what?
你可以打给凯西，说：
You can call Kathy and say
对。
Yes.
姐妹，母亲节快乐。
Happy Mother's Day, sis.
我现在好想妈妈。
I'm missing our mom right now.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这感觉太强烈了。
Which is tremendous.
我的天，真是搞笑又心酸。
I mean, it's really What a hoot.
真是搞笑又心酸。
What a hoot.
你知道吗，妈妈特别喜欢那些荒唐的小事和生活里的意外惊喜。
I mean, really, like, you know, that was so our mom is like, just she just had this ability to delight in silliness and in life's surprises.
生活中那些诗意的瞬间啊。
And, you know, in the poetry of life.
天哪，这简直就是在上演生活的诗意。
And man, I feel like this qualifies as the poetry of life.
特蕾西·克拉克-弗洛里，谢谢你和我聊这些。
Tracy Clark-Flory, thank you for this conversation.
太感谢你邀请我了。
Thank you so much for having me.
特蕾西的新书《母亲的女儿：在家族的破碎过往中寻找自我》将于5月5日上市。
Tracy's book, My Mother's Daughter, Finding Myself in My Family's Fractured Past, is out May 5.
《现代爱情》团队包括戴维斯·兰德、艾莉莎·古铁雷斯、林·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alyssa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本集由里瓦·戈德堡制作，林·利维剪辑。
This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg and edited by Lynn Levy.
混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯负责。
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
本集原创音乐由马里昂·洛萨诺、王黛安和丹·鲍威尔创作。
Original music in this episode by Marion Lozano, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell.
丹还为我们写了主题曲。
Dan also composed our theme music.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯主编，李米亚负责现代爱情项目。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
特别感谢斯特拉·巴比。
Special thanks to Stella Bugbee.
如果你想给《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或一段微小的爱情故事，我们会在节目说明里提供投稿指南。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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