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你好。
Hi.
我是萨拉娜·莱恩。
I'm Salana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，具备专业洞察力，帮助您理解正在发生的事情。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用程序的“观看”标签页中。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
您无需成为订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用程序开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是安娜。
It's Anna.
在我们开始今天的内容之前，我想请大家帮个小忙。
Before we get started today, I just wanna ask a quick favor.
我们正在制作情人节特辑，希望你能参与其中。
We're working on our Valentine's Day episode, and we want you to be a part of it.
你能告诉我们，你是什么时候意识到自己爱上对方的吗？
Can you tell us about the moment you knew you were falling in love?
那时你在哪儿？
Where were you?
当时发生了什么？
What was happening?
那是一种什么感觉？
What did it feel like?
它可以是关于你目前正在经历的关系，也可以是过去的关系。
It can be about a relationship you're currently in or a relationship from the past.
我们只想知道，那个你意识到的瞬间——嘿。
We just wanna know about the moment you could tell, hey.
我正在爱上这个人。
I'm falling in love with this person.
请将你的回答录成语音备忘录，发送至 ModernLovePodcast@NYTimes.com，我们可能会在节目中播出你的故事。
Record your answer as a voice memo and email it to ModernLovePodcast@NYTimes.com, and we may end up featuring it on the show.
再重复一遍，告诉我们你意识到自己正在坠入爱河的那一刻，并将它作为语音备忘录发送到 ModernLovePodcast@NYTimes.com。
One more time, tell us about the moment you knew you were falling in love and send it as a voice memo to ModernLovePodcast@NYTimes.com.
我们非常期待听到你的故事。
We are so excited to hear from you.
如果你想被收录进这一期节目，截止日期是2月5日。
If you wanna be included in the episode, your deadline is February 5.
好的。
Okay.
让我们开始节目吧。
Let's start the show.
爱，现在与永远。
Love now and forever.
爱。
Love.
爱
Love
比任何东西都更强大。
is stronger than anything.
为了爱，爱。
For the love Love.
我比任何事物都更爱你。
And I love you more than anything.
爱。
Love.
依然有爱。
There's still love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是《现代爱情》。
This is Modern Love.
每周，我们为您带来源自《现代爱情》专栏的故事。
Every week, we bring you stories inspired by the Modern Love column.
我们谈论爱情、性、朋友、家人，以及人类关系中所有的纷乱复杂。
We talk about love, sex, friends, family, and all the messiness of human relationships.
本期嘉宾是歌手兼词曲作者内科·凯斯。
Our guest this episode is singer songwriter Neko Case.
我心中最柔软的地方
The most tender place in my heart
凯斯已经从事音乐创作近三十年，她的歌曲一直让我觉得非常个人化且充满情感。
Case has been making music for nearly three decades, and her songs have always struck me as so personal and emotional.
但与此同时，你其实很难分辨凯斯是在以自己的身份写作。
At the same time, though, you can't really tell when Case is writing as herself.
她曾将几首歌称为自传性质的，但她也融入了虚构的人物、动物，甚至行星。
She's referred to a handful of her songs as autobiographical, but she also weaves in fictional characters, animals, even planets.
真希望今晚我是月亮。
Wish I was the moon tonight.
凯斯本月将出版一本新回忆录，她显然已经准备好分享自己生命中最美好也最残酷的部分。
Case has a new memoir coming out this month, and she's clearly ready to share some of the most beautiful and brutal parts of her life.
这本回忆录名为《我抗争得越激烈，我就爱得越深》。
The memoir is called The Harder I Fight, The More I Love You.
她在书中写道，她的父母在非常年轻的时候相遇，然后又分开了。
In it, she writes that her parents got together, then split up, when they were very young.
他们几乎没钱也没时间满足她的基本需求。
They barely had the money or the time to meet her basic needs.
但更痛苦的是，他们给予她的关注少得可怜。
But what was even more painful was how little attention they gave her.
她以令人心碎的细节描述了被忽视的经历，随后在青少年时期独自离家，通过音乐建立了一个自己选择的家庭。
She describes experiencing neglect in heartbreaking detail, then striking out on her own as a teenager and creating a chosen family through music.
今天，尼科·凯斯朗读了一篇由一位女儿撰写的《现代爱情》文章，这位女儿为了保护自己，不得不将母亲从生活中剔除。
Today, Neko Case reads a Modern Love essay by a daughter who had to cut her mother out of her life in order to protect herself.
凯斯告诉我，她年少时母亲的缺席如今对她意味着什么。
And Case tells me what the absence of her mom when she was younger means to her now.
尼科·凯斯，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Neko Case, welcome to Modern Love.
非常感谢你们邀请我。
Thank you very much for having me.
你的新回忆录以一个场景开篇：你在某个地方演出，你写道：我爱陌生人，也爱一座新城市。
Your new memoir opens with a scene where you're playing a show somewhere and you write, I love a stranger and a new city.
我想了解他们的故事。
I want to know their stories.
是什么吸引你去关注那些你不认识的人？
What is it that draws you to people you don't know?
我只是觉得他们真的很出人意料。
I just think they're really surprising.
我觉得你几乎能和任何人找到共同点。
And I think you can find something in common with pretty much anyone.
而且我觉得每个人身上都有某种吸引力。
And I I think there's something attractive about every person too.
我的意思是，当然也有例外，但总的来说，大多数人身上都有吸引人的地方。
I mean, there are exceptions, but, you know, for the most part, most people have something attractive about them.
是的。
Mhmm.
而且很有趣。
And interesting.
你能说说
Can you tell
你是如何尝试与那些看似与你截然不同的人找到共同点的吗？
me how you attempt to perhaps find that kind of common ground with someone who might seem very dissimilar to you?
这必须是自然的。
Well, it has to be natural.
你不能突然冲上去就让人讲讲自己的童年。
You can't just bust up to someone and be like, tell me about your childhood.
我的意思是，你可以这么做，但你吃Funyuns吗？
I mean, you could, but Do you eat Funyuns?
我的意思是，你可以，我想？
You know, you can't I mean, you can, I guess?
但让人开口说话的主要方法之一，就是问他们自己城市里有什么好吃的。
But one of the the main ways to get people to talk is if you ask them what's good to eat in their city.
人们会非常兴奋地跟你分享这类事情。
And people get really excited to tell you about stuff like that.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
或者，比如，你去哪里
Or, like, where do you
买唱片呢，如果你想从一个
go to buy your records if you wanna buy from a
本地人那里买？
a local person?
我觉得，以这种毫无防备的方式尝试与陌生人建立联系，对于像你这样有公众身份的人来说，相当罕见。
I do feel like living in this kind of unguarded way attempting to connect with strangers is quite rare for someone who has a public career like yours.
你觉得是这样吗？
Does it strike you that way?
我其实没那么被人认出来。
I'm not really that recognizable.
我有一张非常立体主义的脸，经常把头发扎起来，看起来完全像另一个人。
I have a very I have a very cubist face, and I wear my hair up a lot, and I look like a totally different person.
不可能吧。
No way.
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道。
And I don't know.
我能蒙混过关，这挺好。
I get away with it, which is fine.
我的意思是，我根本算不上特别出名之类的。
I mean, I'm not I'm not, like, super famous or anything anyway.
除非人们刚在舞台上见过我，否则他们不会知道那是我。
People don't know it's me unless they just saw me on stage, I think.
你喜欢这样吗？
Do you like that?
我喜欢。
I do.
为什么？
Because?
因为你可以去超市，然后
Because you can go to the grocery store and
你看吧。
There you go.
你知道的。
You know?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
嗯，我现在有点紧张，因为你刚告诉我，你对刚认识的人问起他们的童年有什么看法。
Well, I am I'm a little nervous now because you just told me where you stand on asking people about their childhood when you've just met them.
但我希望你能原谅我，因为你写了一本新回忆录，全都是关于你童年的，而且你对小时候和父母一起生活的艰难经历毫无保留地描述了。
But I hope you'll forgive me, because you have written a new memoir that is all about your childhood, and you really hold nothing back from your descriptions of what your early life was like and how hard things were for you living with your parents as a kid.
你能给我简单描述一下你成长期间的生活是什么样的吗？
Can you just give me a sort of sketch of what life was like for you growing up?
嗯，我的意思是，如果是上学期间，我会和我爸爸住在一起，他是个非常安静的人。
Well, I I mean, if it was a school year, I'd live with my dad, who was a very quiet person.
是的。
Mhmm.
而且他还吸毒，情绪非常低落。
Also a drug addict, very depressed.
他并不糟糕或刻薄什么的。
He wasn't awful or mean or anything.
他只是根本不在那里。
He just wasn't really there.
缺乏关注。
Attention.
我们非常贫穷，住的是一栋破旧的房子，经常潮湿，而且常常没东西吃。
We were really poor, and we lived in kind of a crappy house that was kinda wet, and often there just wasn't anything to eat.
所以我通常就是闲坐着，打开取暖器，坐在电视前看《吉尔igan岛》，我他妈根本不喜欢那节目。
So what I would do is I would just kinda sit around and turn on the space heater and sit in front of the TV and watch, like, Gilligan's Island, which I fucking hated.
我也没什么别的事可做。
I didn't have anything else to do.
你在回忆录中还提到，学年期间你大部分时间和爸爸一起生活，而暑假则和妈妈在一起。
You also mentioned in your memoir that you spend, you know, most of the time, the school year at your dad's, and then you you also spend summers at your mom's.
而正是在这一点上，我才真正感受到，问题不只是你的父母漠不关心。
And that's kind of where I feel like the the you really get a sense of it wasn't just that your parents were checked out.
你实际上是被严重忽视了。
You were you were really neglected.
我想知道你能否谈谈那段被妈妈长时间弃之不管的时光？
And I wonder if you can talk about that period when you were functionally kind of abandoned by your mom for hours.
是的。
Yeah.
部分原因在于，七十年代那种行为是被社会接受的。
I mean, part of it was what was acceptable in the seventies.
你知道，X世代有很多笑话是说没人管过我们。
You know, there's a lot of Gen X jokes about, you know, nobody raised us.
但我的父母也得去上班啊。
But I, like, my parents had to go to work.
我们很穷。
We were poor.
所以我不怪他们没有陪在我身边。
So I don't I'm not mad at them for not, you know, being around.
我明白他们必须去上班。
Like, I understand that they had to go to work.
是的。
Yeah.
有些时候还挺有意思的。
Some of it was fun.
你知道的？
You know?
有些事情就像《哈克贝利·费恩》那样，但故事里没有其他角色。
Some of it was, like, Huck Finn style, but there were no other characters in the story.
只有动物。
It was just animals.
你知道的，我的狗和猫，我们会去河边，那里美极了。
You know, my dogs and my cats, and we would go to the river, and it was so beautiful.
另一方面，那真是一段非常神奇的经历。
And so on on that hand, it it's it was a really magical experience.
但另一方面，一个孩子一天也受不了太多这样的事情。
And on the other hand, it was like a kid can only take so much of that a day.
是的。
Yeah.
感觉好像永远都过不完。
It just felt like forever.
但我总是试图让别人注意到我，尤其是我的父母，哪怕只是陪在我身边。
But I was just always trying to get people to notice me, my parents, and to even just be with me.
我有点觉得自己是个多余的、碍事的存在。
I kind of thought I was sort of this extra thing that was around that was kind of in the way.
但我对自己也没什么太高评价，所以并没有什么激烈的反抗，因为我还没真正把这些事情联系起来。
But I didn't think much of myself either, so there wasn't some great rebellion at hand because I hadn't really connected the things.
就是觉得，这太糟了。
It was just like, this sucks.
你感觉自己被抛弃了。
You felt discarded.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你都用什么方式试图引起他们的注意？
What were the ways that you would try to get their attention?
通过擅长某些事情，比如画画。
Being good at things, like making pictures.
我努力成为一个很棒的艺术家。
I tried to be a really good artist.
我努力让自己画得特别好。
I tried to be really good at drawing.
我会学很多东西，但自己都没意识到，比如动物的知识、一首歌的创作者是谁、哪个人负责贝斯，或者那个乐队来自哪个小镇。
I would learn a lot of things, and I didn't know I was doing it, like facts about animals or, what artist a song was by or who played bass on that song or what town that band was from.
是为了给他们留下好印象吗？
Trying to impress them?
是的。
Yeah.
就是，你知道的，我懂很多关于动物的知识，或者只是想显得有点用处。
Just like, you know, I know a lot about animals or just, you know, just trying to seem useful somehow.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那有用吗？
And did that work?
天啊。
Oh, god.
没有。
No.
这种行为是你小时候就开始的吗？后来在青少年和成年时期，你也一直试图引起他们的注意、显得有用或被关注吗？
Was this a practice that you continued as a kid, but then into your sort of teenage and adult life as well, trying to get their attention, trying to be useful or noticed?
我想我一直尝试到三十多岁后期。
I think I tried that into my, you know, late thirties.
我的意思是，中间有些时候是脱节的。
I mean, there were disconnects here and there.
但我爸，我觉得我能理解他，而我妈妈，我不理解。
But my dad, I feel, you know, I understand him, whereas my mother, I I don't.
我只知道，我非常理解她，因为她自己还是个孩子时就生了孩子，而且并不想要这个孩子。
And all I know like, I have a lot of compassion for the fact that, you know, she had a kid when she was a kid and didn't want the kid.
是的。
It's like, yeah.
我不怪你感到沮丧和抑郁。
I don't blame you for being bummed out and depressed.
当然。
Of course.
对。
Yeah.
像小时候，我其实并不明白这一点。
Like, as a little, little kid, I didn't really understand that.
但我不觉得我被夺走了一位充满爱的母亲。
But I I I don't feel like I had a a loving mother snatched away from me.
我觉得我一直都知道，那种爱总是有条件的。
I I I feel like I always you know, it was always conditional.
是的。
Yeah.
我的回忆录里确实能强烈感受到那种不被需要的感觉，读起来让你觉得非常痛苦。
I mean, really comes across I was gonna say in your memoir that sort of feeling of being unwanted is very visceral for you and incredibly painful to read about.
你在书中多个场景中描述了你妈妈对你表现出的冷漠。
And you describe your mom especially having a coldness towards you in multiple scenes throughout the book.
嗯，你知道的，那确实很糟糕，但与此同时，我以为每个人都是这样生活的。
Well, when you know, I it sucked, but at the same time, it's like I thought everybody kinda lived that way.
但偶尔我会去朋友家，那时候我就想：天啊。
But then every now and again, I would go over to a friend's house or something, and I'd be like, wow.
他们正在吃晚饭，彼此交谈着。
They're eating dinner, and they're talking to each other.
父母都在场，而且他们家有个食品储藏室。
And the parents were around, and they have a pantry.
里面堆满了食物。
There's a bunch of food in there.
你想吃的时候随时都可以拿。
You can just eat it whenever you want.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的？
You know?
这里真暖和。
Like, you're warm in here.
什么？
What?
这里有食物，还有人像你一样和你聊天，这太棒了。
There's food and stuff, and people like you and talk to you, and it's cool.
我那时候特别害羞，但他们主动和我说话，我就想：哇。
And I would be really shy, but then they would talk to me, and I would be like, woah.
也许我也可以这样生活。
I I maybe I could live here somehow.
知道其他家庭与你的家庭相处方式如此不同时，你是什么感觉？
What did it feel like to know that other families related to each other so differently than yours?
那并不让人充满希望。
It was it wasn't hopeful.
我只是想问：你在开玩笑吧？
It was more like, are you kidding me?
等等，发生什么事了？
Like, what's going on?
为什么我要过一种不一样的生活？
Like, why why do I live a different way?
我的意思是，毕竟我当时还是个孩子，所以也没太认真想过这个问题。
I mean, then again, you know, I was also a kid, so I didn't think really hard about it.
当时就是，有种低沉的嗡鸣声，我一直只想往下一个地方去。
There was just, like, you know, kind of a a low grade humming of I just always wanted to get to the next place.
好吧。
It's like, okay.
好吧，赶紧把这事做完。
Well, I'll get this over with.
指的是童年吗？
As in childhood?
是的。
Yeah.
而且，也许我到了另一个地方，或者当我待在祖母身边时，我会感到被需要。
Like, and maybe I'll get to another place, or, you know, or if I was around my grandmother, I felt wanted.
所以就会想，好吧。
And so it'd be like, okay.
我想，我再有六周就放暑假了，然后也许我可以去探望祖母。
Well, I guess I have, like, six more weeks of school, and then maybe I'll go visit my grandma.
是的。
Yeah.
但和父母住在一起并不是这样。
But living with my parents wasn't that.
但我已经处理了很多这些问题。
But I've worked through a lot of it.
我的意思是，我真的很努力地为自己在这一切中开辟出一片空间，只是对自己说，是的。
I mean, I've really worked really hard to, you know, make a space for myself in all that and to just go, yeah.
那真是太糟糕了。
That was fucked up.
你不该在那里。
You shouldn't have been there.
关于你提到的关于你妈妈的一些事情，以及你是如何处理所有发生在你身上的事情的，我还有很多问题想问你。
Well, I have a lot more questions for you about some of the things you've revealed when it comes to your mom specifically and how you did all that work to process everything that happened to you.
但在那之前，我非常希望你能读一读你选中的这篇《现代爱情》文章。
But before we do that, would love for you to read this Modern Love essay that you've selected.
在读之前，你有什么想说的吗？比如你为什么选这篇文章？它为什么能引起你的共鸣？
Is there anything you wanna say to to tee up the essay, why you chose it, why it speaks to you?
我选这篇文章是因为，这个作者迫切地想要原谅自己的母亲，而我并不想。
Well, I chose it because this person is desperate to find forgiveness for their mother, where I am not.
我对原谅有着完全不同的看法，我认为原谅是一件非常神圣、美好的事情，但在某些情况下，它也完全是胡扯，不应该强加给已经承受了太多痛苦的人。
And I have a a very different view of forgiveness and think that it is a really sacred, amazing thing, but in certain situations, it's also a total crock and a responsibility that should not be put on someone who's already gone through so much.
你不必原谅任何人。
You do not have to forgive people.
如果原谅对你来说是种负担，那绝对不要。
If that's work for you, hell no.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
绝对不行。
Hell no.
如果你找到了宽恕，你真的很了不起。
If you find forgiveness, you're incredible.
但如果你没有找到宽恕，你依然很了不起。
But if you don't find forgiveness, you're incredible.
你不需要通过宽恕来证明自己更好。
It's not something that you need to do to be better.
宽恕是你幸运时才会遇到的东西。
It's something you find if you're lucky.
但如果你想要自我成长，目标不是为了他们。
But if you wanna work on yourself, the goal is not for them.
目标是为了你自己。
The goal is for you.
如果宽恕不存在，谁在乎呢？
And if forgiveness isn't in there, who cares?
有些事情是不可原谅的。
Like, some things are unforgivable.
宽恕是美好的，真正的宽恕。
Forgiveness is beautiful, the real thing.
它有点像正义这个概念。
It's kinda like the concept of justice.
正义被广泛宣扬，但宽恕和正义并不是一回事。
It's flaunted a lot, but it's like forgiveness and justice are not one thing.
它们更像是一种氛围，是一种非常自然、充满生机的存在状态。
They're kind of an atmosphere, and they're a state of being that's very organic and alive.
这不是一个你达到后就万事大吉的目标。
It's not a thing you reach, and then you're there, and then you're good.
这必须是一种系统性的健康状态。
It's like, it has to be a systemic healthy thing.
这真是为我们写这篇散文做了完美的铺垫。
What a way to prime us for this essay.
如果你准备好了，我很想听你读一读。
If you are ready, I would love to hear you read this.
《我的母亲，陌生人》作者：
My Mother, the Stranger by
凯特琳·麦科密克。
Caitlin McCormick.
还有，我想说，请。
Also like to say, like Please.
我刚才说的话并不是对凯特琳·麦科密克的评判，因为每个人对自己父母对待方式的反应都是独特的，而且完全合理。
What I just said is not a a reflection on Caitlin McCormick either, because every single person's reaction to how their parents treat them is theirs, and it's super valid.
而且我觉得她并没有盲目相信那些说法。
And I don't think she's drinking the Kool Aid or anything.
我不是那个意思。
I didn't mean it that way.
我只是想说，那不是我的选择。
I'm just saying, like, that's not what I chose.
完全同意。
Totally.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我觉得意思已经传达出来了。
I think that came across.
我的意思是，你所说的，宽恕对她来说很重要。
I mean, what you're saying is forgiveness is important to her.
正如你所说，这真的很美好。
And as you said, that's that's beautiful.
如果这对你来说是一件重要的事，那就去努力实现吧。
And if that's something that feels important to you to achieve, then then sort of go forth.
你说的是，对你而言，宽恕并不是你所追求的东西，不是吗？
You're saying for you, you found that forgiveness is not something that you are No.
而是你需要给予的东西。
That you need to give.
我觉得这一点非常清楚。
I think that was very, very clear.
这并不是对她的一种评价。
It was not a remark on her.
她的选择是她的，你的选择是你的。
Her choices are hers, and and yours are yours.
我非常期待一会儿听到你朗读这段话。
And I cannot wait to hear you read this in just a moment.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
理论上，我知道这种事情可能发生在任何家庭中。
In theory, I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family.
任何人的表亲都可能密谋杀人。
Anyone's first cousin could be plotting murder.
这是UCE 4735，今天的话题是：正直的公民总是被发现是隐藏的罪犯。
This is UCE 4735, today is Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals.
与艾伦·盖森的循环式对话。
Cyclic wording with Alan Gessen.
我甚至不会称我的表亲艾伦为正直的公民。
And I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen.
你知道，我的客户都是贩毒集团级别的，个个都是狠角色。
You know, my clients are cartel level They're all badasses.
你知道，知道是一回事，但还有更彻底的方式来处理它。
They're they they But it's one thing to know There's a more permanent way to do it.
是吗？
Is it?
对。
Yeah.
越来越不一样了。
More and more different.
永久的。
Permanent.
还有一件事你需要明白。
And another thing to understand.
艾伦，杀了我。
Alan, murder me.
结果比我想象的要糟糕得多。
It ended up being so much worse than I thought I knew.
这个价格非常合理。
The price is eminently reasonable.
好的。
Okay.
但艾伦到底在想什么？
But would it what the hell was Alan thinking?
比如说，我对某些东西过敏。
Like, let just say that I'm allergic to stuff.
你知道在说什么吗？
You know what saying?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我明白了。
I get it.
是的。
Yeah.
来自Serial Productions和《纽约时报》，我是艾姆·格森，欢迎收听《傻瓜》。
From Serial Productions and The New York Times, I'm Em Gessen, and this is The Idiot.
在您收听播客的任何平台都可以收听。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
《陌生人母亲》，作者：凯特琳·麦科密克。
My Mother, the Stranger by Caitlin McCormick.
我在一个应用上找到了索夫。
I found Sof on an app.
我在西村的一家红灯葡萄酒吧遇见了她。
I met her at a red lit wine bar in the West Village.
她和照片里一模一样，只是更温暖、更光彩照人。
She was exactly as pictured, except warmer, more aglow.
羞涩而迷人，笑声爽朗，我真想把它吞下去。
Sheepish and charming, with a full laugh that I wanted to swallow for myself.
当我走近她时，她张开双臂给了我一个拥抱。
She went in for a hug when I approached her.
我早就知道她是澳大利亚人。
I already knew she was Australian.
通过短信，我让她发誓要当面解释她是怎么来到这里的。
Over text, I made her swear to explain in person how she'd ended up here.
那是圣诞节和新年之间的灰暗空档，也是纽约唯一感觉像在派对上找到一间安静且未上锁的卧室的时候。
It was the gray mush between Christmas and New Year's, the only time New York feels like finding a quiet, unlocked bedroom at a party.
这和我的心情很匹配。
It matched my mood.
几周前，我经历了一段分手，让我感到不安的是，这段分手竟然没有让我感到难过。
Weeks earlier, I had gone through a breakup that upset me because it didn't upset me.
我决定，23岁的心碎应该像一场中世纪的屠杀，像被剖开一样。
Heartbreak at 23, I decided, should have felt like a great medieval slaying, like being cut open.
在酒吧里，索夫告诉我，她父亲几十年前从悉尼来访时，是如何遇见她母亲——一位土生土长的纽约人的。
At the wine bar, Sof told me about how her father had met her mother, a born and raised New Yorker, when he was visiting from Sydney decades ago.
索夫这次来纽约待几个月，趁着兽医学校的暑假，和母亲这边的家人团聚。
Soph was here for a few months to spend time with her mother's side of the family while on summer break from veterinary school.
她希望秋天能搬到城里，真正利用好她的双重国籍。
She hoped to move to the city in the fall, finally making good use of her dual citizenship.
那你妈妈现在住在悉尼吗？
And your mom lives in Sydney now?
我问。
I asked.
以前是，索夫说。
Well, did, Soph said.
其实，我们几年前失去她了。
We lost her a few years ago, actually.
我差点让她重复一遍。
I almost asked her to repeat herself.
我想分析她的表达方式。
I wanted to dissect her delivery.
我无法相信她竟如此轻松地掌握了我过去三年一直追求的语调。
I couldn't believe she had so effortlessly nailed a tone I'd been chasing for the past three years.
事实上，我太震惊了，以至于对她说了我通常只在第六次或第九次约会，或者永远都不会说的话。
In fact, I was so stunned that I told her something I normally say for the sixth date or the ninth or never.
我也以某种方式失去了母亲。
I had also lost my mother in a way.
我们关系疏远。
We were estranged.
我很擅长与母亲疏远，也很擅长让别人对我们的疏远感到安心。
I was good at being estranged from my mother, and I was good at making other people feel comfortable about our estrangement.
但我却不太擅长谈论这件事。
But I was bad at talking about it.
我母亲是个酒鬼，而且不是那种隐晦的类型。
My mother was an alcoholic and not the covert kind.
她偷东西、撒谎、欺骗。
She stole, lied, and cheated.
在父母几年前分居后，她一直用残忍的方式对我说话，直到最后我彻底与她断绝了来往。
She spoke to me only with cruelty until eventually after my parents separated several years ago, I cut her off entirely.
我过着成年后的日子，拥有一份我热爱的工作、爱我的朋友，以及各种爱好和兴趣，而这些最终我的母亲一样都没有——这不是因为我们的疏远，而是恰恰因为疏远。
I lived the adult life I did with a job I loved, friends who loved me, and hobbies and interests, things that eventually my mother had none of, not despite our estrangement, but because of it.
我感到有义务成为一个疏远关系的代言人，一个活生生的、会呼吸的例证，告诉大家：看，生活依然继续。
I felt an obligation to be a kind of estrangement poster child, a living, breathing embodiment of, look, life goes on.
我参加了团体治疗和个人治疗。
I went to group therapy and solo therapy.
我举办了一场传奇般的‘朋友感恩节’，要求每位客人带一道他们母亲可能会做的菜。
I hosted a legendary Friendsgiving where guests were required to bring a dish their mother might have prepared.
我既带着讽刺，也带着真诚地调侃着‘妈妈问题’。
I joked about mommy issues with both irony and sincerity.
但这一切从未变得容易。
Still, it never stopped being hard.
理论上，我不欠任何人解释，但实际上，我确实欠了。
I owed no one an explanation, in theory, yet in practice, I did.
我经常出柜说自己是同性恋，但我也不断在出柜，说自己没有母亲。
I came out as gay often, but I came out as someone without a mother constantly.
我从来都找不到合适的简略说法来概括这段经历。
I never felt that I had the right shorthand.
她确实是个状态不佳的人，但在我人生的前十八年里，她一直是个漂亮、成功、耀眼的人。
She was an unwell person, but for the first eighteen years of my life, she had been a beautiful, successful, sparkly person.
她曾毫无保留地深爱过我。
She loved me fiercely.
可才过去了短短几年，她就骤然坠入了一片谁也无法跟随的黑暗深渊。
And then in only a matter of years, she plummeted into a dark cave where none of us could follow.
遭遇这样的背叛之后，你要怎么才能再对任何人敞开心扉？
How are you supposed to let anybody in again after such betrayal?
我找不到答案。
I had no answer.
日复一日，我愈发无法理解成瘾这件事。
Every day, I understood addiction less.
这根本不一样，我第一天晚上就对索菲这么说了。
It's not the same, I said to Soph that first evening.
她的母亲死于癌症。
Her mother had died from cancer.
我只是想说，我也没有妈妈。
I just mean that I also don't have a mom.
完全一样，索菲说。
It's absolutely the same, Soph said.
就像她告诉我的每一件事一样，我相信了她。
And like everything else she told me, I believed her.
第二天，我举办了一场新年除夕晚宴。
The next day, I hosted a New Year's Eve dinner party.
我们吃了凯撒沙拉、薯条和韭菜汤，喝着贴着古怪纸标签的葡萄酒。
We ate Caesar salad and french fries and leek soup and drank wine with funky paper labels.
我告诉所有人，前一天我遇到了一个光彩照人的人。
I told everyone that the day before, I'd met someone sparkly.
我们第二次约会时，沿着公园走了三十个街区，走到我的公寓。
On our second date, we walked 30 blocks uptown along the park to my apartment.
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在草莓园附近，她说如果一只受伤的鸟还能保持握力，它就有生存的机会。
Around Strawberry Fields, she said an injured bird has a fighting chance if it retains its grip strength.
她伸出手指给我看，像一只钩状的爪子一样演示。
She held her finger out to me like a hooked talon to demonstrate.
她将在三月离开，因此在接下来的几个月里，我打破了自己所有的原则。
She would leave in March, so over the next few months, I broke all my own rules.
索芙一周可以见我两次，然后三次，再然后四次。
Sof could see me twice in a week, then three times, then four.
索芙可以见我的朋友们。
Sof could meet my friends.
索芙可以来参加周二的问答游戏。
Sof could come to Tuesday trivia.
我们可以只属于彼此，但仅限于她离开之前。
We could be exclusive, but only until she left.
在了解索芙的过程中，我也渐渐了解了她的母亲。
In coming to know Soph, I also came to know her mother.
这里是她母亲最爱的鸡尾酒吧，最爱的法国小餐馆，还有她童年的街区。
Here was her mother's favorite cocktail bar, her favorite French bistro, her childhood neighborhood.
索菲不仅对纽约的了解至少不亚于我，而且她是通过她母亲的眼睛来看待纽约的。
Not only did Soph know New York at least as well as I did, but she knew it through her mother's eyes.
我羡慕她如此随意地将母亲融入日常对话中，既包含又尊崇着她，仿佛这毫不费力。
I envied the way she casually slaughtered her mother into everyday conversation, including and honoring her as if it cost nothing.
这不一样，我说。
It's different, I said.
你妈妈生病了。
Your mom was sick.
但你妈妈也生病了啊，她告诉我。
Your mom is also sick though, she told me.
我想象着，如果以同样的方式纪念我的母亲会是什么样子——用我们通常只留给逝者的宽恕去纪念她，哀悼的不是她变成了什么，而是她曾经是谁，且不再纠结这是否是她应得的恩典。
I wondered what it would be like to honor my mother in the same way, to honor her with the kind of absolution we usually reserve for the dead, to mourn not who she had become, but who she had once been, and not worry whether it was a grace she deserved.
于是，我照做了。
And so I did exactly that.
我试着重新学习如何谈论我的母亲，如何说明她是一名职业厨师，曾在全国各地的城市为权贵掌厨，包括纽约。
I tried to relearn how to talk about my mother, how to say that she was a professional chef by trade who had served powerful people in cities all over the country, including New York.
与此同时，她也是一位会按时缴税、用上好的犹太盐焯西兰花、发Bitmoji表情说‘我为你感到骄傲’的母亲。
That simultaneously, she had been the kind of mother who paid her taxes, blanched her broccoli with good kosher salt, and texted Bitmojis that said, I'm so proud of you.
我开始留意那些让我想起她的事物。
I started pointing out things that reminded me of her.
穿裙子搭配工作拖鞋，听琼·奥斯本和乔尼·米切尔的歌，任何曾经是迪恩与德卢卡的店面。
Work clogs worn with dresses, Joan Osborne and Joni Mitchell, any storefront that used to be a Dean and DeLuca.
我希望能了解更多。
I wished I knew even more.
比如，很多年前，我们的母亲是否曾在街上擦肩而过。
Like where, so many years ago, our mothers could have passed each other on the street.
就在此时，正如事情发展那样，远在亚利桑那州的母亲因晚期肝病入院。
It was only then, as things go, that out in Arizona, my mother entered the hospital for late stage liver disease.
起初，医生推测她还能活两到三年。
First, the doctors guessed that she had two or three years.
这变成了一个月。
This became a month.
我订了一周后的航班，但最终，当我乘坐地铁前往皇后区见索夫的祖母时，时间已经变成了几天。
I booked a flight for a week out, then finally, as I took the subway to Queens to meet Soph's grandmother, it became days.
如果你有什么话要说，现在就是回家的时候了，”当我在我能下的最早一站下车时，我父亲说道，那恰好是大都会球场。
If you have something to say, now would be the time to come home, my father said when I got off at the earliest stop I could, which happened to be Citi Field.
当索夫在停车场接我时，我用了很多话问她，却没有说出我原本打算作为女朋友对她说的那番准备好的话。
When Soph met me in the parking lot, I asked her in so many words, and without the prepared speech I had hoped to give to be my girlfriend.
第二天，我飞往图森。
The next day, I flew to Tucson.
当我的飞机经过两次转机后降落时，我母亲已经昏迷了。
By the time my plane touched down, after two layovers, my mom was unconscious.
我和母亲的关系，就像一部我暂停后离开房间的电影，回来时却发现片尾字幕已经开始了。
My relationship with my mother was a movie I had put on pause to leave the room, only to return to find the credits playing.
我还没有决定，这是否是她版本的恩典。
I haven't decided if this was her version of Grace.
我仍然不知道，除了‘我爱你，我原谅你’之外，我还能说什么。
I still don't know what I would have said besides, I love you and I forgive you.
为什么我不知道你最喜欢的市中心咖啡馆是哪家？
And why don't I know your favorite cafe downtown?
为什么我永远都不会知道？
Why won't I ever know?
我别无选择，只能相信这已经足够了。
I have no choice but to believe this was enough.
就像爱一样，关于死亡，没什么好说的，前人早已说尽。
Like love, there is not much to say about death that hasn't been said before.
很多时候，只是无尽的等待。
It is often a lot of waiting around.
母亲住在临终关怀病房时，我和姨妈、舅舅、兄弟姐妹们聚在一起。
I gathered with aunts and uncles and siblings as my mother lay in hospice.
我们讨论着，是更喜欢点的茄子咖喱，还是鸡肉咖喱。
We discussed whether we liked the eggplant curry we had ordered better than the chicken.
我们玩了桌游，听着母亲的呼吸，屏息静听它渐渐放缓。
We played board games and listened to my mother's breathing, quieting to hear it slow.
最终，我们也失去了她。
Ultimately, we lost her too.
当人们用那种特有的、用于面对可怕事情的无力语气问我过得怎么样时，我会像试穿旧牛仔裤一样套用那些关于悲伤的陈词滥调。
When I'm asked how I'm doing in that particular limp tone that we use for terrible things, I try on grief truisms like old jeans.
我说我很好，同时也被撕裂了。
I say I'm fine and also cut open.
我就像迷失在森林里的小红帽。
I am like Little Red Riding Hood lost in the woods.
不过，在我最好的时刻，我正学会用这些问题继续我最初开始的工作——也就是说，我用它们来谈论我的母亲。
In my best moments, though, I'm learning to use these questions to continue the work I started, which is to say, I use them to talk about my mother.
我试着使用过去时。
I attempt past tense.
她曾美丽、成功而闪耀。
She was beautiful and successful and sparkly.
她喝夏敦埃酒时喜欢加冰。
She took her chardonnay with ice.
每天结束时，我会给远在十四小时时差外的女友打电话，问她一些问题。
At the end of each day, on the phone with my girlfriend fourteen hours in the future, I ask her questions.
你知道吗？我急切地问起死亡的气味、旧的语音留言，以及所有关于悲伤的事？
Did you know, I ask with urgency, about the smell of death, about old voice mail messages, about all matters of grief?
是的。
Yes.
我知道，她总是这么说。
I know, she always says.
她说，她喜欢这样一种说法：一个人只有在最后一个人提到他的名字时，才算真正死去。
She says she likes the idea that someone only dies the last day someone says their name.
我最喜欢这个箴言。
I like this truism best of all.
她向我保证，我们有永远的时间去学会谈论它。
She promises me that we have forever to master talking about it.
我认为我们必须用一生去努力。
I think we must spend forever trying.
读那篇散文时，你有什么感受？
What did it feel like to read that essay?
你想到什么了？
What comes to mind?
我觉得我读到的是一个健康的人，我为她感到高兴，因为她有一个如此富有同情心、如此酷的女朋友，愿意为她铺一条漂亮的跑道，让她尽情地跳踢踏舞。
I it felt like I was reading about somebody who was healthy, and just I'm excited for her that she has a really nice girlfriend who is so compassionate and so cool to, like, put put a nice runway out for her to, like, do her tap dance on.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
是的。
Yeah.
你说的踢踏舞，是指某种程度上理解自己的失去，对吧？
By tap dance, you mean to sort of understand her own loss or Yeah.
她自己的
Her own
她就像说：进来我的客厅吧，想跳多少次踢踏舞都行，把情绪都释放出来。
She's like, come on into my parlor and do all the tap dancing you want and, you know, get it out.
我会在这里看着你，真的感兴趣，并在你跳舞时与你互动。
And I'll be here, I'll watch, and I'll actually be interested and engage with you while you're tap dancing.
你是在回应索菲在这篇散文中给予的支持。
You're reacting to the the support of Soph throughout this essay.
你说的是，没错。
You're saying that Yes.
凯特琳拥有这份美好的爱，它在她经历这段艰难的失去时期时，一直滋养着她。
Caitlin has this beautiful love that sort of nurtures her through this very difficult period of of loss.
是的。
Yes.
而且，你知道，那种潜藏的无力感，她永远不会理解，也永远无法理解。
And also, you know, the undercurrent, like, she doesn't understand, and she'll never understand.
但你知道，接受你永远无法理解这一点，也没关系。
But, you know, accepting that you'll never understand is okay.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
所以，Neko，你能谈谈Caitlin在文中描述的她与母亲的关系，和你自己的母亲故事之间有什么相似之处吗？
So, Neko, can you talk about any parallels between what Caitlin wrote about her relationship with her mom and your own story about your mom?
她是个可怕的酒鬼。
She's a gnarly drunk.
就这些了。
That's about it.
这里有一件事让我印象深刻，就是她说，每天她对成瘾的理解都更少了一点。
One one thing in here that really struck me is when she says every day she understands addiction less.
我从未听过有人如此简洁地表达过，这是一句非常有力、深刻的话。
And I've never heard it put so simply, and it's a really, really strong sentence and a really strong thought.
就像，是的，我每天对成瘾的理解也在不断减少。
It's like, yeah, I understand addiction less all the time too.
我们这些被深受成瘾问题困扰的人伤害过的人，还有我们的支持在哪里？
And there's all of us that have been abused by people who've really struggled with addiction and etcetera, and where is our support?
对于有成瘾问题的人，社会提供了很多支持，这很棒。
There's so much support for people with addiction, which is awesome.
是的。
Mhmm.
我不是说这不好。
I'm not saying that that's bad.
我只是想说，内心深处，我有一种内在的挣扎。
I'm just saying, like, inside, I have this inner, like, struggle.
在哪里
Where is
在我的生活、我的身体里，还有我的日常实践中，根本没有。
this like, in my life and in my body and, like, in in my daily practice, like, no.
我没有。
I do not.
我并不是在抱怨别人接受治疗。
I'm not, like, begrudging people treatment.
当然了。
Like, absolutely.
如果有人有这个力量去这么做，那当然好，太好了。
And if people have the strength to do that, like, please, yes, good.
保住性命很重要。
Save your life is important.
我们必须救下它。
We need to save it.
你知道吗？
You know?
这对身边的人也很重要，你知道吗？
And it's important for people around you, you know?
但我只是在想那些被遗弃的人，根本没有任何支持，那真是最空洞的地方。
But I just I think about all the people who were just abandoned or there's there's no it's just the most hollow place.
那是最孤独、最空洞的地方。
It is the loneliest, most hollow place.
而且我认为，对于那些父母有严重虐待行为的人，确实存在一些支持，但这种支持非常有限。
And I guess and there, you know, there there is support for people who've had parents who are really abusive in that way, but it's pretty thin.
人们可以互相找到彼此，但遗弃和虐待是非常严重的问题。
And people can find each other and stuff, but, you know, abandonment and abuse is a really big deal.
我感觉我能从你的回答中，隐约听到年轻时的Neko在说话。
I feel like I can kind of hear young Neko speaking through through that answer, through what you just said.
你说这是一种孤独的处境，而我似乎能听到童年的你也在说这一点。
You said it's it's a lonely place to be, and I can I sort of I feel like I hear child you speaking That
那种孤独感永远不会消失，对吗？
lonely place never goes away, ever?
你提到，你对这篇散文的第一反应是为凯特琳能在SOF获得支持而感到高兴。
You talked about you sort of immediate reaction to this essay was feeling very happy for Caitlin that she had the support in SOF.
听你谈到那种永不消散的悲伤、永不离开的孤独，我不禁想问。
And I guess I wonder hearing you talk about the sort of the the grief that never leaves, the loneliness that never leaves.
在你的生活中，你找到过SOF吗？
In your life, have you found a SOF?
有没有人向你展示过另一种方式？哦，是的。
Have there been people that have showed you a different way of Oh, yeah.
去爱的方式？
Of being our loving?
你能具体谈谈某个人吗？可以分享一下吗？
Can you maybe talk about someone in specific that you would be able to share?
我有一个好朋友叫珍妮弗·劳豪斯，她嫁给了我亲爱的朋友约翰·劳豪斯，他在我的乐队里演奏 pedal steel。
Well, I have a good friend named Jennifer Rauhaus, and she's married to my dear friend John Rauhaus, who plays pedal steel in my band.
她经营着一家名为 Peer Solutions 的非营利组织，帮助孩子们互相倾诉，比如谈论虐待和性虐待之类的问题，你知道的，她接触过很多跨性别孩子。
And she she runs a nonprofit organization called Peer Solutions where she helps kids help other kids, you know, talk about things like abuse and sexual abuse and, like, you know, she has a lot of kids who are trans.
还有来自各处的人，他们因为各种原因被边缘化了，就像我们社会中那些对人残忍的种种理由。
And, you know, just people from all over the place who have kinda been kinda shoved aside for whatever reason, like all the reasons that were cruel to people in our society.
她非常擅长谈论这些事情。
And she's just so good at talking about things.
我记得有一天，我说了类似这样的话：是的。
And I remember one day I said something like, yeah.
我当时很难过。
And I was really upset.
她说：当然会了。
And she goes, of course you are.
当然你会难过了。
Of course you're upset.
我记得那一刻让我感到很震撼。
And I remember it kinda gave me whiplash.
我当时想：哇。
I was like, woah.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
然后我感觉，好吧，我好像长了一点肌肉，或者某个小小的角落被温暖地填满了。
And then I felt like, okay, I just grew a little muscle or something or some little pocket was filled up in a nice way.
是的。
Yeah.
那什么让你觉得如此印象深刻？
What about that was so what about that was so striking to you?
我经常看到她对别人充满同情，然后，你知道，她也对我这样做了。
I I watch her be compassionate to people all the time, and then, you know, she did it to me.
而且，你知道，她小时候经历了可怕的虐待，简直是超现实的、可怕的虐待。
And and, you know, she went through horrible abuse as a kid, like absolutely surreal, horrible abuse.
她对此非常公开地谈论。
And she's really loud about it.
而她的坦率，我认为，让我在她对我说‘当然你很难过’时，能够真正接受。
And her loudness, I think, is something that made me really accept it when she said, of course, you're upset.
而且
And
她不怕大声表达。
she's not afraid to be loud.
我总是觉得，用什么词来形容呢？
And I always felt really what's the word?
我只是觉得，我不是唯一一个这么大声的人，因为很多时候你感觉自己就像在水下大喊，却没人
I just felt like I wasn't the only person who was loud and because often you feel like you're just screaming underwater, and no one
能听见你。
can hear you.
她说了‘当然，你很难过’，这种情感上的认同，让你感觉你们是在一起呐喊。
And her saying, of course, validating that emotion felt like you were screaming together.
就像，是的。
It's like, yeah.
我不是唯一一个这样的人，你知道，你从小通过电视被灌输了一套价值观。
I'm not the only person who's like, you know, you're taught this set of values as you're growing up by the television.
这些价值观被说成是美国价值观之类的。
And they're supposed to be American values or whatever.
比如要诚实，诸如此类的事情。
You know, tell the truth and all this stuff.
没人想听他妈的真相。
Nobody wants to hear the fucking truth.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你说实话，你就完蛋了。
You speak the truth, you're fucked.
人们就是不想和你待在一起，觉得太费劲了。
People just don't wanna hang out with you like it's too much work.
我一直都是这样的人。
And I've always been that guy.
你知道的？
You know?
我一直都是那种觉得这太扯淡的人。
I've always been the person who's like, that's fucked up.
你知道的？
You know?
但这确实很难，比如和自己的父母，尤其是跟母亲坦诚自己当时的感受或所经历的孤独，小时候你根本做不到这一点。
It's tough, though, you know, with your own with a with a parent, for example, speaking the truth to your mother about how you were feeling or the loneliness you were experiencing, it doesn't feel like that was something that you were able to do as a kid.
我当时没有合适的词来表达
Well, I didn't have the words for
确实如此。
it, certainly.
是的。
Yeah.
我现在有了表达这些的词汇。
I have the words for it now.
而且，你知道的，我成年后确实跟她谈过这些。
And, you know, I did speak to her as an adult Right.
用恰当的词语谈了那些事情。
About those things with the correct words.
这根本没有任何区别。
It just didn't make any difference.
我正想说，当你向妈妈表达出来的时候，感觉怎么样？
I was gonna say, what did it feel like when you voiced to your mom?
感觉就像小时候那种水一直淋在你身上的感觉。
It just felt like the same water pouring over you that poured over you is when you're a little kid.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就像是同一个浴缸。
Just it's like it's just the same bath.
我们又在这里了。
Here we are.
感觉糟透了。
It feels like shit.
我想，在某些情况下，我可能会开始哭，但我其实不会，因为我知道这并不是我的错。
I think, you know, certain under certain circumstances, I could start crying or but I don't really, because I I know it's not my fault.
但我也觉得，她还是很差劲。
But I'm also like, she still sucks.
我真的很为她感到难过。
I feel really bad for her.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我真的觉得，有一部分我明白，她成长的环境几乎是不可能好的。
And I really, you know, there's part of me that's like, she grew up in kind of impossible circumstances.
你知道，她经历了很多可怕的事情和虐待。
And, you know, she went through a lot of horrible things and abuse.
而且，说实话，我一点都不会因此责怪她。
And, you know, I don't I don't blame her for that at all.
我也不会因为她生下我而怪她。
And I don't blame for her for having me.
你知道吗？
You know?
而且，这很奇怪。
But and and it's weird.
你知道吗？
You know?
人们觉得我谈论这件事真的很糟糕，但那时堕胎刚刚合法化。
People think it's really awful that I talk about this, but abortion had just become available at that time.
不知为什么，她没有选择堕胎。
And for whatever reason, she didn't get an abortion.
我肯定她很害怕，她还是个孩子。
And I'm sure she was scared, she was a kid.
所以，你知道的，当时她做的任何决定，我都不会责怪她。
So, like, you know, any choice she made at that point, I wouldn't fault her for.
但作为一个不被期待的孩子，别他妈在这个国家把堕胎定为非法。
But as an unwanted child, do not make fucking abortion illegal in this fucking country.
我真的无法相信我们现在竟然到了这种地步。
Like, I cannot fucking believe where we are right now.
这太恶心了。
It is disgusting.
这极其不人道且残忍。
It is so inhumane and cruel.
作为一个不被期待的孩子活着，是最孤独的深渊。
To live as an unwanted child is the loneliest nadir.
这是最糟糕的。
It is the worst.
我宁愿让我的母亲过上她自己的生活，而不是现在在这里，因为我一生都在想，是我毁了她的生活。
I would so much rather have given my mother her life than be here now because I spent my life thinking that I ruined her life.
这对咱们俩都不公平。
And it's not okay for either one of us.
这太残忍了。
It is cruel.
Neko，我能问你一下吗？当你说到‘我知道这不怪我’的时候，是什么意思？
Neko, can I ask you when you say, you know, I know it's not my fault?
我意识到，凯特琳，这篇散文的作者，以她自己的方式经历了这种领悟，她明白这并不是她的错。
It strikes me that I feel like Caitlin, the author of this essay, goes through that type of understanding, you know, in in her own way where she realizes it's nothing that she did.
这是她母亲所对抗的一种疾病。
This was a disease her mom was battling.
你能指出你生活中某个具体时刻，也让你有同样的感受吗？
Is there a specific moment you can point to in your own life where that really hit you too?
这根本不是关于我的事。
Like, this is not about me.
我妈妈对我的行为，并不是因为我做了什么。
My mom's behavior towards me is not because of something I did.
你能指出这样一个时刻吗？
Like, is there a moment that you can point to?
我想，我大概快四十岁时才终于明白了发生过什么。
Well, I think I was kinda probably near 40 when I finally just understood what happened.
我当时就想，天啊。
And I was like, oh my god.
我太想相信这个故事了，以至于我让那些最荒诞的谎言代替了对她真实面貌的认知。
I wanted to believe this whole story so bad that I let the most threadbare lies stand in as the truth for who she was.
但这根本不是她的本来面目。
But it wasn't who she was at all.
她根本不想生孩子。
She didn't want a kid.
她为避免生孩子所采取的极端手段令人难以接受，让人无法不感到被冒犯。
And the lengths that she went to to not have a kid are so extreme that it's impossible not to be offended by them.
我的意思是，我现在其实已经不太在意了，因为这些行为太过离谱，我几乎已经无法把它们当作针对我个人的了。
I mean, I'm not really anymore because they're so outrageous that I almost can't take them personally anymore.
你愿意分享一下这些谎言的大致内容吗？
Do you wanna share even just a sort
概要
of high
你能大致说说那些谎言是什么吗？
level overview of of what those lies were?
你不一定需要
You don't need to necessarily
我一直以为，直到我大约38岁的时候，我妈妈曾经得过癌症。
I I thought for my entire life up until I was about, I guess, 38 or so that my mom had had cancer at one point.
你以为她得过癌症，但那不是真的。
You thought that she had cancer, and that was not true.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
她假装患癌，只是为了摆脱我。
She used a fake faking having cancer to get away from me
以此从我的生活中消失。
as a way to disappear herself from your life.
是的。
Yes.
我会问她这件事，但她通常不太愿意多谈。
And I would ask her about it, and she was you know, she wouldn't really say much about it.
比如，我会问她得的是哪种癌症，因为我会去妇科检查之类的。
Like, I had asked her what kind of cancer she had because I'd be going to the gynecologist or whatever.
我知道这和她的生殖系统有关。
I knew that it had to do with her reproductive system.
所以我意识到她曾说过是卵巢癌和宫颈癌，但她其实并没有同时得这两种病。
So I I realized that she had said ovarian and cervical, and she didn't have both.
所以我只是以为自己记错了。
So I I would just think that I forgot.
比如，当我去做妇科检查时，医生会问：你的家族有这些癌症的病史吗？
Like, when I went to the gynecologist and they're like, well, does your family have a history of, you know, these cancers?
我就记不清她到底说过哪种，不知道该勾选哪一个。
I wouldn't remember which one she said to check the box of.
后来我才意识到，我根本不是在忘记。
And then I finally realized I wasn't forgetting.
她告诉我不同的答案。
She was telling me different answers.
你根本就没得过癌症。
You never had fucking cancer.
哇。
Wow.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我当时就想，天啊。
I was just like, holy shit.
我怎么就没发现呢？
How did I not see it?
我从中得到的感悟是，我太想相信她了。
What I took away from it was like, wanted to believe in her so bad.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
就是，是的。
It's like, yeah.
你想要一个妈妈。
You wanted to have a mom.
你想要一个清醒的、在某个时刻依然爱你的妈妈。
You wanted to have a mom that was coherent, that at some point still wanted you.
是的。
Yeah.
而我不想要一个妈妈。
And I didn't want a mom.
我想要的是她。
I wanted her.
是的。
Yeah.
我崇拜她。
I worshiped her.
我觉得她是最美、最有才华的人。
I thought she was the most beautiful, talented person.
我觉得她是世界上最酷的人，我总想和她待在一起。
I thought she was the coolest thing in the world, and I wanted to be with her all the time.
但我一直想不通，为什么我从来没能和她在一起，为什么她不来救我。
And I couldn't figure out why I never was or why she wouldn't come and save me.
当然，她自己也不快乐，你知道的，她真的不知道该怎么办。
And, of course, she was unhappy and, you know, absolutely she didn't really know what to do.
但她处理这些问题的方式，我完全不尊重。
But her choices of how to deal with that, like, I have no respect for.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我已经很久没想这件事了。
I don't I it's been a long time.
我不希望联系我母亲，也希望她永远不要联系我。
I don't wish to contact my mother, and I hope she never contacts me.
你有没有觉得，你不得不向别人解释为什么你妈妈在你的生活中缺席？
Did you ever feel like you had to explain why your mom was absent from your life to other people?
没有。
No.
一点都没有？
Not at all?
嗯嗯。
Mm-mm.
告诉我为什么。
Tell me why.
成长过程中被忽视或受虐待并不罕见。
Well, it's not unusual to have grown up neglected or abused.
有一个沉迷于成瘾问题的父母也不罕见。
It's not unusual to have a parent that struggles with addiction.
父母患有精神疾病或抑郁症并不罕见。
It's not unusual to have a parent who struggles with mental illness and depression.
所以我会说，是的，我母亲是个该死的混蛋，而且是个很糟糕的酒鬼。
So I will say, yeah, my mother was a fucking horrible person, and, you know, a really bad drunk.
而且，你知道，这很不幸，但确实很常见。
And, you know, it's it's unfortunate, but it's a really common thing.
那我为什么不能大声说出来呢？
So who cares if I say it out loud?
也许有人听到后会想，哦。
Maybe someone will hear it and feel like, oh.
就像那句话：我每年对成瘾的理解都更少一些。
You know, it's like the statement, I understand addiction less every year.
我很感激凯特琳·麦科米克说了那句话，因为我有了一个新的表达，就像一个工具，让我觉得，好吧。
I felt very grateful to Caitlin McCormick for saying that because I had a new sentence that was a tool that was like, okay.
这太真实了。
That is so true.
我对成瘾的理解也越来越少了。
I understand addiction less and less as well.
Neko，你分享的这么多内容，我认为听众们也会有同样的体验，找到属于自己的新话语或几句话。
Neko, so much of what you shared, I think people listening will have that same experience of having a new sentence or or sentences for themselves.
我认为你正在为听众做着Caitlin为你做过的事。
I think you are doing for listeners what Caitlin did for you.
我希望如此。
I hope so.
我的意思是，你知道，有些人听我唱歌，因为我会写歌，我从不把这当作理所当然，也不希望滥用这份信任。
I mean, you know, there are people who listen to me because, you know, I write songs, and I don't take that for granted, and I don't want to abuse that.
如果我不喊出真相，或者我认为的真相，那我还有什么价值呢？
And if I didn't yell the truth or what I think is the truth, then what good was I?
我一直以来只希望有用，也许这就是我存在的价值。
All I ever wanted was to be useful, and maybe that's what I'm useful for.
Neko Case，非常感谢你今天来到节目并与我交谈。
Neko Case, thank you so much for coming on the show and talking to me today.
能在这里和你交谈，我感到非常荣幸。
I'm honored to be here talking with you.
谢谢你邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
你可以在我们的节目笔记中找到今天听到的《现代爱情》文章的链接，凯特琳·麦科密克的《我的母亲，陌生人》，以及尼科·凯斯的回忆录《我越抗争，就越爱你》，该书将于1月28日出版。
You can find a link to the Modern Love essay you heard today, Caitlin McCormick's My Mother, the Stranger in our show notes, and Neko Case's memoir, The Harder I Fight, The More I Love You comes out January 28.
书中包含了与凯斯在本集中分享的类似童年经历，以及她生活中的许多其他回忆。
It includes similar childhood accounts to what Case shared in this episode and many other memories from her life.
《纽约时报》未能联系到凯斯的母亲获取评论。
The Times was not able to reach Case's mother for comment.
她的父亲已经去世。
Her father is deceased.
本集由里瓦·戈德堡制作，并得到艾米·珀尔、戴维斯·兰德和艾米莉·朗的帮助。
This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg with help from Amy Pearl, Davis Land, and Emily Lang.
本集由我们的执行制片人珍·波安特编辑。
It was edited by our executive producer, Jen Poiant.
制作管理由克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫负责。
Production management by Christina Joseph.
《现代爱情》主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作。
The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.
本集的原创音乐由马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦卡斯克、罗文·内米斯托、丹·鲍威尔和卡罗尔·萨巴罗共同创作。
Original music in this episode by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Rowan Nemistow, Dan Powell, and Carol Sabarow.
本集由索菲亚·兰德曼混音，录音室支持由马迪·莫西洛、丹尼尔·拉米雷斯和尼克·皮特曼提供。
This episode was mixed by Sofia Landman with studio support from Maddie Mosiello, Daniel Ramirez, and Nick Pittman.
特别感谢米希玛·查布兰尼、内科·洛格利、杰弗里·米兰达，以及我们的视频团队：布鲁克·明特斯、萨沃·罗凯和埃迪·科斯塔斯。
Special thanks to Mihima Chablani, Neko Logli, and Jeffrey Miranda, and to our video team, Brooke Minters, Sawyer Roquet, and Eddie Costas.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
米亚·李是《现代爱情项目》的编辑。
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，说明请见我们的节目笔记。
If you wanna submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, the instructions are in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
谢谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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