能让外遇消失的女人

我是《连环档案》的主持人莎拉·柯尼格。我们有一档新节目，名为《预防者》，讲述的是宾夕法尼亚州东部发生的一件怪事。父母们声称他们带孩子去医院就医，结果却被迫独自离开。

This is Sarah Koenig, host of Serial. We have a new show. It's called The Preventionist. It's about something strange that happened in Eastern Pennsylvania. Parents claiming they'd walked into a hospital to get medical care for their children and then were forced to leave without them.

为什么这些父母突然失去了孩子的监护权？由Serial Productions与《纽约时报》联合制作的《预防者》即将上线。符合条件的《纽约时报》订阅用户现在就可以在Apple Podcasts和Spotify上收听，10月30日起全网同步播出。

Why were these parents suddenly losing custody of their kids? From Serial Productions and The New York Times, it's The Preventionist. Eligible Time subscribers can listen right now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, so head there to subscribe or listen anywhere October 30.

大家好，我是安娜。在节目开始前，我想问你们一个问题。如果听起来有点直接，请别介意。好吗？

Hey, everyone. It's Anna. Before we start the show, I wanna ask you a question. And please don't be offended if it sounds a little direct. Okay?

问题是：金钱问题是否影响了你们的关系？谈论金钱总是令人尴尬又敏感。存多少？花多少？

Here goes. Are money issues affecting your relationship? Money can be awkward and sensitive to talk about. How much to save? How much to spend?

由谁来决定怎么分配？但如果避而不谈，反而会引发更严重的问题。我们即将推出一期节目，我将采访拉米特·塞西——Netflix节目《如何致富》的主持人，个人理财书籍作者，尤其擅长帮助伴侣化解金钱观念分歧，让双方乐于探讨这个话题。

Who makes the decisions about what? But if you're not talking about money, it can cause even bigger problems. We have an episode coming up soon where I'll be talking to Ramit Sethi. He hosted the Netflix show, how to get rich. He's written books on personal finance, and he's especially good at helping couples resolve their differences around money and start to actually enjoy talking about it.

如果你有兴趣参与，请给我们发送一段语音备忘录。分享你与爱人因金钱产生矛盾的瞬间——可能是伴侣，也可能是家人。描述冲突的起因、双方的对话（或沉默），以及你当时的感受。

If this sounds like something you wanna be a part of, please send us a short voice memo. Tell us about a moment you and someone you loved had tension around money. It could be your partner. It could be a family member. Tell us what happened to set it off, what you said to each other or didn't say, and how you felt about all of it.

你的录音可能会在节目中播出，并得到拉米特的专业建议。请于11月3日前将语音发送至modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com，具体操作指南详见节目备注。好了，我们开始吧。

We might play your voice on the show and hear Ramit's advice on what you can do differently. Please email your voice memo to modernlovepodcast@nytimes.com by November 3. There's instructions in our show notes. Please check those out. Alright.

这是今天的节目。现在开始谈爱

Here's today's episode. Love now

直到永远。坠入爱河吧

and forever. Fall in love

昨晚的爱情。爱比一切都强大。为了爱，爱

last night, love. Love was stronger than anything. For the love Love.

我爱你胜过一切

I love you more than anything.

爱。爱依然存在。爱

Love. There's still love. Love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这是现代爱情故事。在我们的节目中，出轨话题经常出现。老实说，我以为自己已经听遍了所有故事。但最近我了解到一种全新的应对背叛的方式

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. And on our show, infidelity comes up a lot. So much so that I gotta be honest, I kinda thought I'd heard it all. But I recently learned about a way to handle getting cheated on that was totally new to me.

这种方式需要雇佣一位高度专业的人士，他们声称能让婚外情悄然消失，并让出轨者认为是自己主动结束的。这被称为'小三劝退师'，已在中国各大城市流行起来。今天我要对话的是伊丽莎白·洛。这位来自香港的电影制作人用三年时间跟拍了一位小三劝退师。这位劝退师办案时会撒谎、操纵，但对所有相关方都表现出惊人的同理心

It involves hiring a highly specialized professional who claims they can make an affair just sort of disappear and make the cheaters think it was their idea to end it. It's called mistress dispelling, and it's become popular in cities across China. Today, I'm talking to Elizabeth Lowe. She's a filmmaker from Hong Kong who spent three years following one mistress dispeller. When this mistress dispeller is working on a case, she lies, she manipulates, but she's also remarkably compassionate to everyone involved.

看完这部电影后，我满脑子都是它。于是我请伊丽莎白坐下来分享她的感悟，她告诉我她在这过程中如何心碎。

After I saw this film, I could not stop thinking about it. So I asked Elizabeth to sit down with me to share what she learned, and she told me how her own heart got broken along the way.

我记得当时在想，为什么我要让这个以拆散情侣为职业的女人影响我对这段感情的信念。

I remember thinking, why did I let this woman whose entire job is to orchestrate breakups influence my own belief in this relationship.

伊丽莎白·洛，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Elizabeth Lowe, welcome to Modern Love.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

谢谢你的到来。你的新纪录片叫《小三劝退师》。我想直接问你，能解释下什么是小三劝退师吗？

Thank you for being here. Your new documentary is called Mistress Dispeller. I wanna jump right in and ask you, can you explain what a mistress dispeller is?

是的。这是过去十年在中国兴起的一个行业，当你发现配偶出轨时可以雇佣这项服务。与大多数人可能采取的直接对质不同，你会把这个危机外包给一位女性，她的工作是伪装身份潜入你的家庭，与你伴侣（通常是丈夫）成为朋友。然后通过这段友谊接近他的情人。在两三个月时间里，劝退师会取得他们的信任，逐渐且微妙地影响他们产生...

Yes. So it's this industry that's emerged in the last decade in China, and it's a service that you can hire if you find out that your spouse is cheating on you. But instead of directly confronting your spouse, as most people might do, you outsource this crisis to a woman whose job is to infiltrate your family, befriend your your partner, likely a husband, under a false identity. And then through her friendship with him, then gains access to his mistress. And over the course of two to three months, the mistress dispeller gains their trust, gains their ear, and slowly and very subtly influences them to want to

结束这段婚外情的念头。她的目标是融入你的生活，确切说是你出轨配偶的生活。是的，在他不知道她真实身份的情况下。

end the affair. Her goal is to insert herself into your life and really into your cheating spouse's life Yes. Without him knowing who she really is.

好的。不过她总是把自己定位成一个与核心朋友圈保持微妙距离的角色——明白。这样她就能在家庭事务中既保持局内人又保持局外人的身份——嗯。

Yes. Okay. But she all often positions herself as someone slightly distant enough outside of their, obviously, their immediate friend circle Gotcha. So that she's both insider and outsider Mhmm. To their family affairs.

因此她处于最中立、最不具威胁性的位置。在中国大陆，心理治疗在中产或中上阶层仍备受污名。因为中国有'家丑不可外扬'的传统观念，向陌生人倾诉家事简直难以想象。即便在冲突中也要保全各方颜面，这种观念深植于中国乃至亚洲文化。

So she's in the most neutralized, least threatening position. In Mainland China, therapy is still very much stigmatized among middle classes or upper upper middle classes. Because in China, there's this concept that, you know, domestic shame should not be made public. To air your dirty laundry to a total stranger would be unthinkable. And to preserve every party's dignity, even in a conflict, is deeply ingrained in Chinese and Asian culture.

所以第三者劝退师相当于调解员/心理治疗师/家庭顾问/

And so a mistress dispeller is a fixer slash therapist slash family counselor Slash

/私家侦探。我们来聊聊纪录片里重点报道的那位劝退师——王老师。之所以称她为老师是因为...其实就是

slash private eye. Let's talk about the mistress dispeller you focused on in this documentary. Known by teacher Wang. And teacher is because That's just

中文'王老师'的字面翻译，你也可以译作王女士。但我们觉得在字幕里保留'王老师'的称呼能突显她的权威感——这也是人们对待她的态度。

a literal translation of Wang Lao Shi in Chinese, which you might translate that into missus Wang. But we felt teacher Wang set her apart in the subtitles and gave her the sense of authority. Which people treated her with.

确实如此。她真正的超能力是获取信任。通过这种方式，她能让当事人觉得结束婚外情是他们自己的主意。差不多是这样对吧？

Certainly, they did. Her real superpower is gaining trust. And in doing so, kind of convince the parties that ending the affair is their idea. Almost. Right?

没错这就是她的全套策略。结束关系必须是当事人自己的决定。

Like That's her whole yeah. That's her whole MO. Ending the affair has to be their own idea.

工作量确实很大，我得说。我是说，这需要耗费大量的脑力

That's a lot of work, I will say. That's a lot of I mean, it's so many mental

这简直就像《盗梦空间》。她是否有

It's almost like inception. Did she have

一个笔记本记录她对每个人说过的每句话，还是说

a notebook where she keeps track of everything she said to everyone, or what's the

是的。她确实有一套案件记录系统，因为据我们观察，她每年至少要处理上百个新案件。拍摄期间，她总是不停接电话，每天十二到十五小时都在电话上，处理各种突发危机——绝望的妻子们、丈夫或情妇们，你知道的，有些人甚至想自杀，而她负责安抚他们。不知怎的，她有种非凡能力，能把所有人的故事记在脑子里，我觉得主要靠这个。

Yeah. She does have a a system of documentation of all her cases so that she because she has, like it it to us, it it felt like she had at least a 100 cases per year incoming that she was dealing with. And constantly, when we were filming with her, she was always on the phone, twelve hours, fifteen hours a day on the phone, managing different crises that were cropping up from wives who are desperate, husbands or mistresses, you know, who are suicidal, and she's talking them down. Somehow, she has this remarkable ability to keep all of their stories in her head, I think mostly.

哇。

Wow.

是啊。

Yeah.

王老师在你们影片中重点处理的案例是李家。李太太发现丈夫出轨后，雇佣王老师来驱赶第三者。

The case teacher Wang focuses on in your film is with a family the Lee family, the Lees. Missus Lee discovers that her husband is cheating on her, hires teacher Wang to dispel the mistress.

王老师是如何在不让李先生察觉的情况下介入他的生活的呢？李太太和她在社区里被誉为模范夫妻，三十年来一直一起打羽毛球。他们热爱羽毛球，真的热爱。实际上，在我们剪辑时，他们被称为‘羽毛球夫妇’。

How does teacher Wang insert herself into mister Lee's life without him knowing what she's up to? So miss her and missus Lee are known within their community to be this model couple who play have been playing badminton with each other for thirty years. They love badminton. They love badminton. Like, actually, when we were editing them, they were called the badminton couple.

当然。

Of course.

是的，他们

Yeah. They

喜欢把球打过网。对。而且

love tossing it over the net. Yeah. And

丈夫热爱羽毛球，对自己的球技非常自豪。王老师发现，你丈夫最热衷什么？他愿意与别人分享什么？显然，羽毛球排在首位。于是他们决定让她假装成一个想学羽毛球的朋友。

the husband loves badminton, he's really proud of his skill, Wang figured out, like, what is your husband most passionate about? What is something he would be excited to share with someone else? And obviously, badminton was the first on the list. And so they figured out that she would pretend to be a friend who's wanting to learn badminton.

李太太的一个朋友。

A friend of missus Leeds.

没错，李太太的一个朋友。对。这就是她如何巧妙地融入他的生活，并让自己显得可爱——因为她羽毛球打得实在太差了。

Yeah. A friend of missus Leeds. Yep. So that's the setting in which she ingratiates herself into his life and positions herself in this way where she's very endearing because she's so bad at badminton.

她很差劲。

She is bad.

是啊。然后他就喜欢教她

Yeah. Then and he like to teach her

她是在故意表现吗？不，我是说，她就是不会玩？

was she amping that up? No. I mean, she just couldn't play?

是啊。我是说，也许吧，但我不这么认为。好吧。对。我觉得她就是天生的...但她那种，你知道的，她那副端庄的样子，所以我要怎么...我该怎么握球拍？

Yeah. I mean, maybe, but I don't think so. Okay. Yeah. I think she was just genuinely But her, like, you know, her her how sort of demure she is and, so how do I do the how do I hold the racket?

我确信这些都是算计好的。她几乎是在布一个他注定会落入的陷阱，之后他就会被迫坦白。我不想和妻子离婚，但我也无法放弃这个纠缠在一起的年轻女人。

I'm that's, I'm sure, all calculated. And she's laying almost this trap that he's inevitably gonna fall into in which he will then feel compelled to confess. I don't wanna divorce my wife, but I just also can't bring myself to give up this young woman that I've become entangled with.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

随着节日临近，用Wayfair为您所有的招待和装饰需求做好准备。从能让全家人团聚的餐桌椅，到让客人感到舒适的备用床单毛巾，Wayfair是您一站式满足所有家居需求的商店。这个季节，将您的空间改造成娱乐天堂。在Wayfair一站式购齐所有招待所需。而且，Wayfair所有商品都能快速便捷地配送到您家门口。

As the holidays approach, get prepped for all your hosting and decorating needs with Wayfair. From dining tables and chairs that bring the whole family together to extra sheets and towels that make guests feel comfortable, Wayfair is your one stop shop for everything home. This season, transform your space into an entertainer's dream. Get everything you need to host all in one place at Wayfair. Plus, Wayfair ships everything fast and easy right to your door.

今日尽在Wayfair.com选购家居用品，Wayfair.com应有尽有。Wayfair，万千风格，装点每个家。

Shop all things home today at wayfair.com. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

嗨，我是朱丽叶。

Hi. I'm Juliette.

我是乔艾尔，我们来自《纽约时报》游戏团队。正在与玩家们聊聊我们的游戏。你玩我们游戏时是什么感觉？

I'm Joelle. We're from the New York Times games team. And we're here talking to fans about our games. What's your vibe when you're playing one of our games?

这让我觉得我在用一种非常高效的方式拖延时间。

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way.

它恰好挠到了我大脑的痒处。

It just scratches an itch in my brain.

你有什么固定流程吗？

Do you have a routine?

我和男友异地恋。每晚我们都会视频通话并共享屏幕，按固定顺序玩Connections、Mini和Strands。真温馨。

I'm doing long distance with my boyfriend. We'll call every night and share our screen. We do connections, the mini, and then strands. Always in that order. Aw.

你有最喜欢的吗？迷你版。我们试着在三十秒内完成，但很少能做到，不过这始终是我们的目标。大家都会计时，但玩拼字游戏时，我会给自己一整天时间。

Do you have a favorite? The mini. We try and get it under thirty seconds. We rarely get it under thirty, but that's always the goal. Folks will really time themselves, but with Spelling Bee, I give myself all day.

我通常在孩子们睡觉前玩。

I play it when my kids are going to bed.

你们会一起玩吗？

Do you guys play together?

我女儿会玩。她喜欢玩Wordle。

My daughter plays. She likes playing Wordle.

如果你哪天错过了，还有存档可以玩。

If you ever miss a day, there's also archives.

知道这个真是太好了。

That's so great to know.

连线游戏也有存档功能。

And you have it for connections as well.

主啊，帮帮我。

Lord help me.

我打算每天都这么做。《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户可畅玩所有游戏及功能。立即访问nytimes.com/games订阅，享受特别优惠。

I'm just gonna be doing that all day, every day. New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

因此除了接近出轨的丈夫李先生，我认为王老师还有一项更艰巨的任务——让情妇本人向她敞开心扉。你能描述下她是如何打破这位名叫菲菲的情妇的心墙的吗？

So in addition to getting close to the cheating husband, mister Lee, teacher Wang has, I would argue, maybe an even more difficult job of getting the mistress herself to open up to her. Can you describe how she sort of breaks down the wall with this mistress whose name is Fei Fei in the film?

于是她说服了丈夫：'你必须把我介绍给你的情妇，这样我才能了解她的情况。' 但不说要赶走她，因为丈夫可能会抗拒。而他居然同意了。

So she has convinced the husband that you have to introduce me to your mistress just so I can see what's going on with her. Not to say that I wanna get rid of her because he might be resistant to that. And he agrees to that.

最让我震惊的是他居然同意了。我的意思是，你惊讶于他这么爽快就同意把情妇介绍给他眼中的这位新朋友吗？因为——

And so that's that was wild to me that he agreed to it. I mean, were you surprised that he so readily agreed to introduce his mistress to this new friend of his in his understanding? Because

她成功让丈夫相信自己是能帮助他人生的人。她把自己塑造成他生命中的指路明灯：'我会帮你度过这个复杂局面。虽然结果未知，但请让我认识所有相关人员。' 所以她——你的痛苦

she has convinced him that she is someone who can help him in his life. She's positioned him herself as this guiding light in his life that I will help you through this complicated situation. We don't know how it will turn out, but just let me get to know everybody involved. So she your pain

我能帮你解决。

and I can help you.

确实如此。她在与他交谈的过程中，很可能是在深挖他对婚姻的不满，让他感到被倾听，同时也让他开始将情妇视为侵入他珍贵家庭的闯入者。于是他向王介绍了情妇菲菲，而他们得出的结论是王想向情妇学习商业和创业。

Exactly. Exactly. And she probably, you know, in the process of talking to him, is drilling down on what are his resentments in his marriage, helping him feel heard, and then also making him begin to see the mistress as sort of an interloper in what is precious, his family. And so then he introduces Fei Fei, the mistress, to Wang. And the guys that he they come up with is that Wang wants to learn business and entrepreneurship from the mistress.

王求知欲很强。她先是想学羽毛球，这才认识了那位丈夫。现在她又想学商业，从

Wang is really neat wanting to learn a lot. First, she wants to learn badminton, which is how she gets to know the husband. Yeah. Then she wants to learn business from

情妇那里。所以她就像块海绵。能看出情妇有点怀疑，心想'我商业能力不行，她为什么要跟我学？'

the mistress. But so she's a sponge. And you can tell that the mistress is a little skeptical. Like, I'm not good at business. Why would she wanna learn from me?

我不值得学习。但王已经准备好了备用方案——在再次去打羽毛球的路上（这是他们的社交基础架构），他们将会

I'm not worth learning from. Yeah. But Wang already has a backup plan built in that on the way to the badminton game again where they are going to meet, this is their, you know, this is their infrastructure. The social infrastructure in which they

进行

will The alternate

他们的游戏。

Play their game.

本可以命名为

Title of this could have been

那场羽毛球赛。对。嗯。不仅安排他们一起打羽毛球，她还精心设计让丈夫因工作被叫走，十分钟后就把她独自丢在球场。她已经达成的目的是——让情妇感到被丈夫轻视。

the badminton game. Yeah. Mhmm. That not only are they gonna be playing badminton together, but she has orchestrated it so that the husband is going to be called away by work and will abandon her at the badminton game ten minutes in. And the thing that she has already achieved is that the mistress feels is made to feel unimportant by the husband.

就这样，在这些时刻里，王老师慢慢获得了她的信任，或者说至少在菲菲心里种下了怀疑的种子：这段感情是否值得你苦苦挣扎？毕竟对方根本没把你当回事。

And in this way, in those moments, Wang slowly sort of gains her trust or at least plants those seeds of doubt in Fei Fei's mind about this relationship and how worthy is it for you to struggle for a relationship that's not even taking you seriously.

正是在他们开始进行的这类私密对话中，我们才能真正看清王老师关于出轨的理论方法。她有个观点：在出轨事件中，谁承受的痛苦最深。嗯。不知道您能否谈谈——

And it's there that we can in those sort of intimate conversations that they begin to have, that's where I think we really see teacher Wang's theory approach to infidelity become very clear. And she has this this idea about who suffers the most Mhmm. In infidelity. I wonder if you could speak about

关于这点。对。电影里最震撼的时刻就是——观众常跟我说，听到这里简直醍醐灌顶——她彻底颠覆了人们对出轨的认知。她直接发问：三角关系里，你认为谁最痛苦？是妻子还是情妇？

about that. Yeah. So in the most striking moment in the film that people always come to me and say that was a revelation when I heard that because it's it completely turns the issue of infidelity down its head. She basically asks, who do you think is in the most pain in a in a love triangle? Is it the wife or is it the mistress?

她说，虽然妻子可能受伤，但真正最痛苦的是情妇——因为她甘愿置身于不配得到完整爱的境地。由于不够自爱而无法拥有公开的完整关系，这才是最深重的痛苦。一方面她极具同理心，能意识到这些年轻女性往往需要心理疏导，她说'我需要重塑她们的自我认知'；但另一方面在策略上，她对女性当下情感的操控又极其冷酷，虽然此刻痛苦，或许是为了更长远的救赎。

And she says, while the wife may be hurting, it's actually the mistress who is willing to put herself in a situation where she is not deserving of a complete love, that she is actually suffering the most because she doesn't love herself enough to be in a complete relationship out in the open. And she's both hyper compassionate on one hand, I think, that she can recognize, okay. These are young women often who need some degree of therapy, and she talks about it as I need to help their cognition about themselves. But on the other hand, in terms of her strategy, she's very ruthless and brutal towards what she's doing with the young woman's emotions in the moment that are painful in the moment, but maybe for a greater good.

所以她的观点是情妇最痛苦。你认同吗？从你接触的案例来看，这个结论成立吗？

I mean, so her idea is that it's the mistress who feeling the most pain. Do you buy this? Like, was that born out from the couples that you saw?

我认为在王老师的案例处理中这个观点很有道理，这种哲学让她能以高度共情且不带批判的方式接近情妇，容易获得信任。但整体而言事情没那么简单。像李太太这样被丈夫背叛三十年的女性，那种心碎和背叛同样深刻。被最亲近的人背叛，或许和情妇被自己背叛（因为是她自己选择作践自己）的痛苦程度不相上下——不过可能王老师是对的。

I think it makes a lot of sense in Wang's approach to these cases, and it's an philosophy that helps her approach these mistresses in a way that is hyper compassionate and nonjudgmental, and so it's easy for the mistresses to trust her. But I don't necessarily think on the whole, it's it's that simple. I think when you see a woman such as missus Lee, who's been betrayed by her husband after thirty years, I think that kind of heartbreak and betrayal is really profound as well. May maybe, you know, betrayal by another human being who's so close to you, I think that is probably as profound as being betrayed by yourself, which is in the mistress's case, she it's herself that's betraying her. But which maybe maybe Wang is right.

正如我所说，王说得对，当你背叛自己时，那远比别人背叛你更糟糕。王总是领先十步。

As I'm talking through this, Wang is right that when when you yourself betray yourself, that is far worse than if another human being betrays you. Wang, always 10 steps ahead.

哇。是的。我是说，这

Wow. Yeah. I mean, it

这就是认知。确实如此。

is it is perception. It really is.

背叛情妇就是背叛她自己。

To betray the mistress is betraying herself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

妻子正被别人背叛。

The wife is being betrayed by someone else.

这是生活中你无法控制的。

Which you cannot control in life.

哇，某种程度上，王老师似乎把她的工作视为帮助情妇打开心扉

Wow. In a way, it seems like teacher Wang sees her job as helping a mistress open her

眼睛或认识到自己的价值。100%正确。但我认为她同时在三方之间周旋。这就是为什么我被这个前提深深吸引。

eyes or understand her worth. 100. That's totally what it is. But I I think she's doing it with all three parties. And that's why I was so so compelled to this premise.

因为我在这个三角恋的每个角色身上，都看到了他们正在经历的经典英雄之旅。妻子必须放下自尊拯救家庭，必须忍气吞声保全家人。丈夫站在人生的十字路口——王让他看清：要么选择对家庭的承诺与爱，要么选择追逐个人欲望的生活。

Because I saw in each of these three characters in each corner of the love triangle, these really classical classically heroic journeys that they're going on. The wife, she has to set aside her pride to save her family. She has to bite her tongue to save her family. The husband is at this fork in the road, which Wang makes him see. You either have to choose your commitment and love for your family, or you choose this life where you are pursuing your own individual desires.

至于情妇，正如你所说，王在帮助她认识到自我价值，从而摆脱这段不令人满足的感情。嗯。

And then with the mistress, she is, like you said, helping her see her own value enough to extricate herself from this love that is not satisfying. Mhmm.

那李氏夫妇和菲菲小姐呢？结局算是幸福吗？甚至说幸福是目标吗？

And where does that leave the Lees and and mistress Fei Fei? Mean, what is the ending is a happy ending even the goal?

我认为电影的结局——虽然不确定该透露多少——是苦乐参半的。但正如王所说，每个人都回到了属于自己的人生轨道。当你问她成功率时，她会说99%，因为她自称非常聪明。她说无论案件结果如何，她始终在帮助三方回归或走向各自命定的轨道。

I think the ending of the film, and I don't know how much I should be giving away You bittersweet. But as Wang would say, each of them is somehow where they belong, in the track that they belong. When you ask her, you know, what is your success rate? She'll say ninety nine percent success rate because she says she's very clever. She says that no matter what happens in the outcome of a case, she is always helping all three parties go back to or go to whatever tracks they belong in in life.

如果有时这确实导致离婚，她会说：那才是对你们各自人生最好的轨道。

And if that sometimes does lead to divorce, she'll say that's the track that is best for each of your lives.

这太多了。生意场上精明的你，就像个修理工说，我会试着修好你的水槽。但如果水槽还是坏的，那就是它本来的样子。

That is so much. Business, a shrewd you're it's like a handyman being like, I will try to fix your sink. But if the sink stays broken, that's how the sink was meant to be.

就像，百分之百。是的。

Like, a 100%. Yeah.

而且因为她的说服力如此强大，她能让妻子或丈夫相信，无论他们的爱情故事如何发展，都是对他们最有利的。

And and because her powers of persuasion are so strong, she can convince, you know, the wife figure or the husband figure that however their love story turns out is in their best interest.

你知道，我经常想到不忠时，至少我是从报复的角度考虑的。比如，我要揭发你，我要结束这段关系，你要付出代价。但我们在你电影中看到的方式避免了这种对抗。

You know, I think often, at least I think about infidelity in terms of in terms of retribution. Like, I'm gonna find you out. I'm gonna end this relationship. You're gonna pay. But the approach we see in your film avoids that confrontation.

但同时，正如我们谈到的，这确实涉及很多欺骗。我很好奇你是如何权衡这些的。

But at the same time, as we've spoken about, it does involve a lot of deception. And I'm curious how you sort of calibrate those things.

我认为这种解决婚姻危机方式的巨大盲点或缺点是缺乏问责。没人需要承担责任，因为一切都被掩盖了。虽然我不清楚具体后果是什么，但本能觉得这是个问题。所有的情感劳动，大部分都由女性承担了。

I think the the huge blind spot or downside of this approach to solving a marital crisis is that there is no accountability. Nobody has to take responsibility because everything is swept under the rug. And I don't know what the consequences of that is exactly, but I I do, you know, just instinctually see that as a as a as an issue. All the emotional labor, so much of it is taken on by the women in the case.

现在，这让我觉得确实如此。

Now, that is that feels true to me.

是的。但我认为这只是我们这个世界现状的一个缩影。全球女性都在为各种关系付出大量情感劳动。

Yeah. But I think that that is just a symptom of the way our world is Yeah. In which women around the world are doing so much emotional labor on behalf of all relationships.

当你深入接触这个'小三劝退师'的世界后，是否改变了你对爱情、承诺或背叛的看法？

Did immersing yourself in this world of mistress dispellers did it change your own perspective on love or commitment or infidelity?

我想说，这段经历带给我的启示曾长期混沌不清。目睹一桩又一桩背叛案例，难免滋生愤世嫉俗的情绪。但对我而言，这恰恰证明了爱情的存在——持久的爱、为爱挣扎、沟通失败的爱。我内心仍保有理想主义，坚信这些人彼此相爱。即便他们越界了，婚姻失败了，但彼此之间仍存在深厚的爱。

I will say, I think the takeaway that I have drawn from this experience, which for a long time was very muddled. And, you know, there's a lot of cynicism that you can derive from witnessing case after case after case of this betrayal. But for me, it is a testament to love, and enduring love, and struggle for love, and people failing to communicate. But there's this, like, idealistic part of me that still very much believes that these people love each other. There's a lot of love between all these people even if they're transgressing and even if they're failing in their marriages.

我向来是个浪漫主义者兼乐观主义者，带着这种心态开始拍摄。项目启动前，我刚遇见深爱的人。哇。记得在三年拍摄期间，我们订了婚，却在杀青时分手了。抱歉。

I think I've always been kind of a romantic and an optimist, and I went in with that feeling. I had met someone that I felt very much in love with right before embarking on this project. Wow. And I remember over the course of the three years of making this film, we got engaged, but it fell apart by the end of the process of filmmaking. Sorry.

有意思的是，有很长一段时间我其实在责怪王老师——那位小三劝退师——觉得她在某种程度上拆散了我的感情。

Yeah. And it's interesting because for the longest time, I actually blamed teacher Wang, the mistress dispeller, for playing a hand in sort of dispelling me from my own relationship.

广告后继续。伊丽莎白，你提到拍摄这部纪录片时自己正经历分手，还责怪王老师。为什么？

We'll be right back. Elizabeth, you told me that you went through your own breakup when you were filming this documentary and that you blamed teacher Wang. Why?

早在我认识她的第一年，当我首次向她透露自己新恋情的时候，她就在我心里埋下了种子。对，那段我充满信心的新恋情。

She had somehow planted the seed in the first year that I met her when I first revealed to her about my my Kind of new relationship. Yeah. New relationship. My new relationship that I felt very confident about.

你跟她说了什么？你就说，我有个男朋友。然后她说好吧。

What did you tell her? You were like, I have this boyfriend. And Okay.

是啊。就是，在漫长拍摄日结束后，我们坐在她办公室地板上吃外卖。挺有意思的。然后你知道，话题自然而然就转到我们各自的感情生活上了。

Yeah. So it was, like, after a long shoot day, and we were eating takeout in her office floor. And Fun. Yeah. You know, so, of course, naturally, the conversation would turn to our own love lives.

对。然后我说，哦，我有个这个男朋友。我们最初是朋友。后来在我察觉之前，我就已经喜欢上他了。不过最终他也回应了我的感情，现在我们相爱了。

Yeah. And I said, oh, I have this this boyfriend. And, you know, we were friends at first. And then, you know, I started to fall for him before he started to fall for me. But eventually, he's reciprocated, and now we're in love.

我还给她看了我们俩的合照。很经典那张。照片里我们隔着一米远坐着，因为那时候还是朋友关系。

And I showed her a picture of the two of us. Classic. And she looked at that picture in which we were sitting a meter apart because we're still friends at that point.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

他坐姿放松自信，而我却缩着肩膀，一副害羞腼腆的样子。她看到照片就露出嫌弃的表情，我就想，糟了。她说，

And he was sitting in a relaxed, confident way, but I was, like, sitting in this really, like, shy, coy way with my shoulders kind of, like, up by my ears. And she was like she was, like, repulsed by this image, and I was like, oh. She was like,

这就是

this is

嘿，你为什么要给她看那张照片啊，朋友？

Well, why'd you show her that pic, my friend?

我不知道。我没觉得那张照片有什么

I don't know. I didn't think there was anything

问题。

wrong with this picture.

而且我觉得挺可爱的。结果她突然说，哦，不行。不行。绝对不行。这注定要失败。

And I thought it was cute. And then she she goes, oh, no. No. No. This is doomed.

这段感情肯定没戏。我当时都惊呆了，因为对别人刚建立的关系下这么武断的结论实在太夸张了。

This will never work out. And I was stunned because that's such a prescriptive, gigantic statement to make about someone's new relationship.

确实。没错。是啊。惊呆了。

Yes. It is. Yeah. Stunned.

换作是我会觉得被冒犯了。

I would have felt offended.

我感到非常受伤。但我也在一个把批评当作爱的家庭中长大。所以我很好奇。我想要颠覆这个世界。是的。

I was very offended. But I also grew up in a household where criticism is love. So I was curious. I wanted to undermine world. Yeah.

是的。这可能就是我们做这些事的原因。完全同意。我当时就想，哦，你为什么要这么说？是什么让你说出这样的话？

Yeah. That's probably why we do what we do. Totally. I And was like, oh, why do you say that? What would lead you to say such a thing?

你同时也是个纪录片制作人。所以不仅仅是

Are also a documentarian. So instead of just being

感到被冒犯，你会问，为什么？是的。我很开放。我时刻保持接纳状态。是的。甚至到了过分的程度。

offended, you say, well, why? Yeah. I'm open. I'm constantly porous Yeah. To a fault.

我接着问，为什么？你为什么要这么说？她说，因为他没有——这话听起来很刺耳。是的。是的。

And I said and I said, why? Why do you say that? And she said, because he didn't and this sounds so harsh. Yeah. Yeah.

她说——我想因为我不是她的客户。她对我毫无保留。对吧？她说，因为他一开始就不喜欢你，他不重视你。他从一开始就看不到你的价值。

She said and and I think because I was not one of her clients. She's no filter with me. Right? She says, because he didn't like you at first, he didn't value you. He couldn't see your value from at the beginning.

但后来他被你对他的好所打动，这才对你产生了感情。所以将来，一旦你停止付出，他就会离开。

But he was moved by how good you were to him, and that's how he felt for you. So in the future, the moment that you stop giving, then he will leave.

天啊。你就好像，

Holy shit. You're like you're like,

这些是面条，然后你就，

these are noodles, and then you're like,

什么？我刚给你看了我男朋友的照片。对啊。

what? I just showed you a picture of my boyfriend. Yeah.

而且，你知道，我们刚开始约会。我们深爱着对方。我当时觉得，但他非常尊重我。比如，他关心我的工作。是他鼓励我来这里找你的。

And and, you know, we had just started dating. We were deeply in love. And I was like, but he respects me so much. Like, he cares about my work. He's the one who pushed me to come here to find you.

然后她随口说了一句。她说，任何能接受伴侣长期离开自己的男人，这本身就有问题。

And she says she's quips. She's like, any man who's okay with their partner leaving them for such an extended period of time, there's a problem there.

哇。我是说，这真是...好吧。在我发表意见前，先问一句，你觉得她说得有道理吗？还是你根本没当回事？

Woah. I mean, it's so it's so well, okay. Let me just say before I editorialize, like, did you think what she said had some merit? Did you brush it off?

我没当回事，因为当时我正深陷爱河。我把这事告诉了我男朋友。对啊。他说，你为什么要让一个陌生人来评判我们的关系？而我...

I brushed it off because I was so in love at that point. And I told my boyfriend about this. Yeah. And he said, you know, why are you letting a stranger diagnose our relationship? And I

还有，你

and, you

知道，我同意了。

know, I agreed.

是啊。对吧？

Yeah. Right?

当然。但显然，那些深刻的言论会以某种方式深入你心。

Of course. But it obviously, those kind of profound statements can, like, sink into you somehow.

以一种几乎无法抹去的方式嵌入你的意识。是的。

Embedded into your consciousness in a way that is almost impossible to erase. Yes.

因为她预言了一个尚未到来但随时可能降临的厄运未来。对吧？一年后

Because she's predicting a future that has not come yet, but it's a doomed future that may come at any point. Right? And then so a year later

你还在拍电影。我还在

You're still making the film. I'm still

拍摄这部电影时，我回到了中国，而这次回来我订婚了。哇。

making the film. I returned to China, and this time I returned engaged. Wow.

你就像在说，王老师快看那块石头。

You're like, look at that rock, teacher Wang.

我带着几分得意告诉她，看吧，我证明你错了。而她轻声说了句恭喜，但我能从她的祝贺中听出一丝怀疑。

And I tell her, you know, feeling kind of triumphant, like, look. I proved you wrong. Yeah. And she says, congratulations quietly. But I can tell in her congratulations that it's a little bit skeptical.

你知道那种感觉吗？当你能察觉对方不够真诚，但她又在克制着不说破。于是我也决定不再向她透露太多，我不需要她的意见。

You know how when you can tell when someone's not being totally genuine, but she's holding her tongue. Right? And I also decide I don't wanna reveal too much to her anymore. I don't want her opinion. Yeah.

尤其是那些负面意见。所以我选择沉默。但我也注意到，在这个夏天之后，尽管我们已经订婚，我们的关系却经历了许多波折——比如未来住在哪里？如何养育孩子？

Her negative opinion. Yeah. So I am quiet about it. But I also notice in myself after a summer in which we've had a lot of turmoil in our relationship despite being engaged over, you know, where are we gonna live? How are we gonna raise children?

是啊，这些都是重要问题。二十年后的生活会是什么样子？我们在这些根本问题上存在分歧，但我仍在坚持。

Yeah. Well, there's be important. Twenty years are gonna look like. We had, you know, fundamental disagreements about that. But I was still hanging on.

但我发现自己内心在问：为什么一年前我还能如此坚定地为我们的爱情辩护，而一年后却变得沉默，甚至无法再为之辩护？尽管我们的关系已经更进一步。

But I noticed in myself, was like, why is it that a year ago, I was I could be so vocal in my defense of our love. But a year later, I'm more quiet and not able to bring myself to defend it. Even despite having taken this next step in your relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

所以，你知道，那开始困扰我。然后在中国拍摄期间，我们处于异地恋状态，我们开始频繁争吵，比如嫉妒、对未来规划的根本分歧，而异地让我们无法有效解决这些矛盾。有一次，他甚至提出要暂时分开。我当时冲动地回应说，那就直接分手吧。

So, you know, that started to disturb me. And then over the course of shooting in China, and we're in a long distance relationship, we're getting into all these fights, you know, jealousy, fundamental disagreements about what our future looks like, and we weren't able to resolve the fights in long distance. And at one point, he asked for a break. And in response, I impulsively said, let's break up then.

哦。

Oh.

十天后我就后悔了。但等我再联系他时，他说已经无法再信任这段感情了。那一刻我突然想，天啊，王女士说得对。一旦感情遇到困难——

And then ten days later, I quickly regretted it. And but then by the time I got back to him, he said he couldn't trust in the relationship anymore. And in that moment, I thought, oh god, Wang was right. Wow. That once things got tough

一旦你停止付出。

Once you stopped giving.

这段关系就会结束，或者他就会离开。我记得当时想着：老天，王女士果然是对的。但紧接着我又特别愤怒，心想为什么我要让这个专门拆散情侣的女人，动摇我对这段明明充满深厚爱意的感情的信念？

That the relationship would end or that he would leave. And I remember thinking, oh my god, Wang is right. But then I got really angry. And I was like, why did I let this woman whose entire job is to orchestrate breakups influence my own belief in this relationship, in which I knew there was a deep love.

顺便问下，你有告诉她你们分手了吗？还是... 我告诉她了。我告诉她了。她什么反应？

Did you tell her, by the way, like, we broke up? Or did you keep I told her. I told her. And how did she react?

其实我不记得她的具体反应了，大概就是'嗯'了一声吧。她应该... 她不会多说什么的，之后也再没提过。但她那种沉默的阅读姿态，她的存在感，以及她对人性深刻的洞察力，却一直萦绕在我心头，产生着持久的影响。电影里那个情妇说过，王女士的影响力就像轻柔绵密的细雨。

I actually don't remember her reaction, but probably just like yeah. She's that probably. She's not gonna say more, and she never said anything else. But it's just her quiet reads, her presence, and how she really knows people that lingered and had this, like, long staying power. And in the film, the mistress says something like, Wang's influence is like a quiet and soft drizzle.

你几乎感觉不到它，几乎听不见它，但它确实存在。我真心觉得那是她的影响。我并不认为她实际影响了我的感情结局，而是在反思中意识到，她所做的只是发现了我自己没注意到的事——那时的我是个尚未成熟的年轻女性，不清楚自己在一段关系中真正需要什么、想要什么，追逐的是一种完全脱离现实的爱，你知道的，那些实际的考量、生活方式、价值观。

You barely feel it. You barely hear it, but it's there. And I really feel like that was her influence. And I don't think she actually influenced the outcome of my relationship. I think in reflection, what I realized she was doing was just spotting something that I didn't spot myself, which is that I was a young woman who hadn't come into herself yet, who didn't really know what she needed or wanted from a relationship, and was chasing after a love that was completely untethered to reality, you know, pragmatics, lifestyle, values.

因此从这种意义上说，这是种不完整的爱，尽管在情感上它感觉像爱。而我所经历的这个领悟——它花了我很长时间——大概就是那些情妇们最终也会明白的道理。

And so in that way, it's this incomplete love, even though emotionally it felt like love. And I think that and this realization that I've gone through, which has taken me a lot of time, is probably the same realization that these mistresses go through.

她只是向你闪现了这个小真相，而这个真相就像一粒种子，不断生长、生长、再生长。是的。

She just flashed you this little truth, and that truth was a seed that grew and grew and grew. Yeah.

而且我不想贬低

And I don't wanna denigrate

当然。

Of course.

我们曾经拥有的关系。确实。我不认为这能说明他爱的能力或在关系中的表现。我想只是她察觉到了我们当时人生阶段的不成熟，这种状态对双方都不会有益。

The relationship that we had. Sure. And I don't think it says anything about his capacity to love or how he behaved in the relationship. I think it's just that she spotted the immaturity that we were at at that point in our lives, and it was not going to serve either of us well.

请问，你现在是单身吗？还是正在恋爱中？

May I ask, are you are you single? Are you in a relationship now?

我现在有一段非常幸福的感情。很好。

I'm in a very happy relationship now. Nice.

你告诉王老师这件事了吗？没有。嗯。没有。没有。

Have you told teacher Wang about it? No. Yeah. No. No.

没有。

No.

但我对我的生活非常有信心。是的。我会非常自信地告诉她这件事。你知道

But I would very confidently my life. Yeah. But I would very confidently tell her about it. And you know

你会怎么做？你会给她看你们俩拥抱的照片。对。

what you do? You'd show her a picture of you two hugging Yeah.

相拥的样子。对。

Embracing Yeah.

而你看起来那么自信。

With you looking so confident.

是的。我不想我不想过于自信。没错。我一直都是个乐观主义者，理想主义者。完全如此。

I do. I don't wanna I don't wanna be overconfident. Yes. Ever the optimist and idealist that I am. Totally.

但我确实觉得，如果以我现在的状态去见她，她可能会有更积极的回应，希望如此。

But I I I I do feel like if I came to her with the relationship that I am now, that she would have a more positive response, hopefully.

你觉得她的声音会一直留在你脑海里吗？

Do you think her voice will always be in your head?

希望不会。

I hope not.

不。我是说

No. I mean

嗯，这很有趣，因为当我说'希望不会'时，那是过去的我，那个充满怨恨、幼稚的我。只是想看看你的反应。是的。但仔细想想，我认为她为客户所做的事非常了不起。让我印象深刻的是她帮助人们认识到自我价值的能力。

well, it's funny because that so when I say I hope not, that was the past me, the resentful childish me. Just need your reaction. Yeah. But thinking about it, I I think what she does for her clients is a remarkable thing. And I think what what stays with me is her ability to help people see their worth.

情人、妻子、还有丈夫，以及他们生活中的优先事项。显然对于菲菲——那个情人，她帮助她认识到自己最根本的渴望：成为完整爱情的一部分，而非躲在阴影里。

The mistress, the wife, and and and the husband, and and what priorities they have in life. And obviously, with Fei Fei, the mistress, she helps her realize her ultimate priorities as she wants to be a part of a love that's complete, not in the shadows.

王老师帮你认识到什么是你的首要任务？

What did teacher Wang help you realize was your priority?

我想，就像她慢慢传授给所服务客户的建议那样，你值得拥有一份完整的爱，这份爱能经受住时间和生活压力的考验。

I think much like probably the advice that she slowly imparts to the clients that she works with, that you are deserving of a complete love that can withstand the pressures of time and life.

我真为你高兴，你感觉自己找到了这样的爱。

I am so happy for you that you feel like you found that.

真心实意的。不，不。我是认真的。

Genuinely am. No. No. I'm full stop.

我就是这么想的。伊丽莎白·洛，非常感谢你参与这次对话。

I just am. Elizabeth Lowe, thank you so much for this conversation.

谢谢。这次谈话非常愉快。

Thank you. This was a lot of fun.

伊丽莎白·洛的电影《驱魔情》从今天起在影院上映。《现代爱情》团队成员包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本期节目由里瓦·戈德堡制作，戴维斯·兰德、林恩·利维和珍·波扬特编辑。本集原创音乐由罗温·内米斯托和丹·鲍威尔创作。

Elizabeth Lowe's film Mistress Dispeller is in theaters starting today. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg. It was edited by Davis Land, Lynn Levy, and Jen Poyant. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto and Dan Powell.

丹还创作了我们的主题音乐。本期节目由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯混音，录音棚技术支持来自玛迪·马谢洛和尼克·皮特曼。研究协助由薇薇安·王和C·叶·赵提供。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。

Dan also composed our theme music. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. And we had research help from Vivian Wang and C. Ye Zhao. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

李米娅是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。如果您想向《纽约时报》投稿散文或微型爱情故事，投稿指南始终在我们的节目说明中。我是安娜·马丁，感谢您的收听。

Mia Li is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, the instructions are always in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.