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嗨。
Hi.
我是《纽约时报烹饪》的埃里克·金。
This is Eric Kim with New York Times Cooking.
作为一名食谱开发者，我花大量时间尝试创作既快捷简单又独具特色的菜肴。
As a recipe developer, I spend a lot of my time trying to come up with dishes that are quick, easy, but also very special.
对我来说，这意味着像蜗牛酱三文鱼这样的菜肴。
For me, that means dishes like cochlear grado salmon.
这是一道外皮酥脆的三文鱼排，裹着会形成焦糖泡泡的咸甜酱汁。
It's a crispy salmon fillet with a salty sweet glaze that bubbles up in candies.
我喜爱烹饪这道菜因为它只需二十分钟。
I love cooking this because it only takes twenty minutes.
你可以在《纽约时报烹饪》上获取这个食谱和更多灵感。
You can get this recipe and so many more ideas on New York Times Cooking.
访问nytcooking.com获取创意灵感。
Visit nytcooking.com to get inspired.
此刻相爱 你坠入爱河
Love now and You fall in love
上次我爱过他们。
last time I love them.
爱比任何事物都强大。
Love is stronger than anything.
为爱而生。
For the love.
爱。
Love.
我能爱你胜过一切吗？
Can I love you more than anything?
爱。
Love.
这里有爱。
There's love.
爱。
Love.
这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是现代爱情。
This is modern love.
上周，我和一位女士聊过，她厌倦了约会结束时那种尴尬的推拉。
So last week, I talked to a woman who was so tired of doing that awkward dance at the end of a date.
我该付钱吗？
Should I pay?
你付钱了吗？
Did you pay?
我该假装想付钱吗？
Should I pretend I wanna pay?
我们应该AA制吗？
Should we split it?
她对此感到无比厌烦，于是请了一个几乎不认识的男人一起开联名账户。
She was so sick of that that she asked a guy who she barely knew to open a joint bank account.
这是针对常见问题的一个非常规解决方案。
That was a very unusual solution to a common problem.
在恋爱关系中，金钱是个很难启齿的话题。
Money is so hard to talk about in relationships.
要决定把钱花在什么地方、为什么而储蓄、由谁来负责做哪些决策，这些都是棘手的问题。
Figuring out what to spend on, what to save for, who's in charge of making what decisions, it's tricky stuff.
最近，我请大家分享了金钱问题在你们感情中的体现。
Recently, I asked you to tell me how money issues are showing up in your relationships.
你们给我们发来了自己的故事。
You send us your stories.
非常感谢。
Thanks for that.
今天我们请到了一位专家来帮忙。
And today, we have someone here to help.
你们可能通过Netflix节目《如何致富》或他的播客《情侣理财》认识拉米特·塞西。
You might know Ramit Sethi from his Netflix show, how to get rich, or his podcast, money for couples.
拉米特为情侣们提供了许多关于如何精明理财的实用建议。
Ramit has a lot of practical advice for couples about how to be smart with money.
但在此之前，他必须先让伴侣们能够心平气和地讨论金钱问题——不争吵、不哭泣、不回避——他通过了解金钱对他们情感层面的意义来实现这一点。
But even before that, he has to get them talking about money without fighting or crying or shutting down, and he does that by figuring out what money means to them emotionally.
今天，拉米特·塞西将告诉我们如何进行一场真正令人愉悦的金钱对话。
So today, Ramit Sethi on how to have a money conversation that actually feels good.
他解答你的疑问，并探讨如何过上富足的生活，无论富足对你意味着什么。
He answers your questions and talks about what it takes to live a rich life, whatever rich means to you.
拉米特·塞西，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Ramit Sethi, welcome to Modern Love.
谢谢邀请。
Thanks for having me.
拉米特，我相信我不是第一个开这个玩笑的人——这是个价值百万美元的问题。
Ramit, here is I'm sure I'm not the first person to make this joke, the million dollar question.
为什么与所爱之人谈论金钱如此困难？
Why is money so hard to talk about with the people we love?
嗯，如果你思考我们对待金钱的方式，尤其在美国，这其实并不奇怪。
Well, if you think about how we treat money, especially in America, it's actually no surprise.
父母很少与孩子谈论金钱。
Parents rarely talk about it to their kids.
他们通常唯一会说的话就是'我们买不起'。
The only phrase that they typically use ever is we can't afford it.
而当你长大后，你从哪里学习关于金钱的知识？
And as you grow up, where do you learn about money?
从电影、电视剧里学吗？
From movies, from TV shows, maybe?
就像我们编织这幅挂毯，把各种故事、那个叔叔、那个阿姨等等都放进去。
It's like we create this tapestry, and we put this story and that uncle and that aunt, etcetera.
但我们很少对金钱有系统性的理解。
But we rarely have a structured understanding about money.
然后想想我们周围听到的那些术语。
And then just think about the terms that we hear around us.
401k计划？
Four zero one ks?
我想不出比这更让人困惑且倒胃口的术语了。
I can't think of a more confusing term that's a turnoff.
所以当有人说罗斯IRA时，我就想，罗斯是谁？
So, someone said Roth IRA, I'm like, who's Roth?
没错。
Exactly.
完全同意。
Totally.
想象一下，当你25岁、35岁或40岁时——无论具体年龄——可能会进入某段感情关系。
So, imagine this, you go to be 25, 35, 40, whatever the number is, and maybe you get into some kind of relationship.
你自己对金钱往往缺乏明确观点。
You yourself rarely have a point of view on money.
就像我们大多数人对食物都有明确偏好。
Like most of us have a point of view on food.
我们清楚自己喜欢什么食物，也知道哪些食物让我们感觉良好。
We know what type of food we like or what type of food makes us feel good.
但对金钱我们却没有这样的认知。
We don't have the point of view on money, though.
当你和一个同样对金钱没有认知的人结合后，突然间我们甚至不知道自己在讨论什么。
Then you partner up with somebody who equally does not have a point of view, and suddenly we don't even know what we're actually talking about.
这样度过一生非常艰难，就像戴着一副模糊的眼镜看世界。
It is a very difficult way to go through life, almost like you're wearing smudged glasses.
所以你看到的每件事都有点混乱，或许还带着些许匮乏的阴影。
So everything you look at is a little confusing, maybe a little tinged with scarcity.
这就是为什么和我交谈过的许多人，即便最终收入远超预期，却依然感到经济拮据。
And that is why so many people I talk to who end up eventually maybe making more than they ever thought, they still feel behind with money.
为什么？
Why?
因为关键不在于数字。
Because it's not about the numbers.
而在于你面对金钱时的感受。
It is about the way that you feel when it comes to money.
假设你开始一段恋情，结婚，与另一个同样戴着模糊眼镜的人共建未来，这会让问题更严重吗？
And then you let's say you get into a relationship, get married, start building a future with someone who has their own smudged glasses on, and this creates even more of a problem?
是的。
Yeah.
因为你们通常不是在讨论金钱本身。
Because you're usually not speaking about the money itself.
我在播客中与夫妻们交流时，最常见的一个分歧就是：一方不认同另一方在Target超市的消费金额。
So one of the most typical disagreements that I will see when I speak to couples on my podcast is one person disagrees with how much the other spends at Target.
不知为何，总是Target。
For whatever reason, it's always Target.
确实如此。
It is.
我简直想说，拜托，我们能不能别再这样了？
I'm like, please, can we not do this again?
说实话，你理想中的富足生活应该远不止在Target购物这么简单。
And you know, if I can just be very honest with you, your rich life has got to be bigger than Target.
你理想中的富足生活应该远不止买汰渍洗衣液这些日用品。
Your rich life has got to be bigger than buying a freaking Tide detergent and other commodities.
虽然我也喜欢Target，但生活应该有更高追求。
There's got and I like Target, but it's got to be more than that.
另一个分歧是，为什么我伴侣每天都要去加油站买能量饮料？
Okay, the other disagreement is, why does my partner go to the gas station and buy energy drinks every day?
这太离谱了。
This is outrageous.
我记得收到过一位纽约网友的Instagram私信，她说：'拉米特，你能跟我丈夫谈谈吗？'
And, you know, I recall this Instagram DM I got from somebody based in New York, who said, Ramit, can you speak to my husband?
因为他每天买冰茶都在浪费钱。
Because he wastes money every day he buys an iced tea.
为什么对冰茶有这么大的分歧？
Why is there such a disagreement about the iced tea?
问题不在于冰茶本身。
It is not about the iced tea.
这是两个人用不同视角看待同一件事。
It is two different people looking at it two different ways.
一方认为：'我赚得多又努力，喝杯冰茶怎么了？'
One person saying, hey, I earn a lot of money, I work hard, I'm gonna get an iced tea.
这是白天里一次不错的小憩。
It's a nice little break in the middle of the day.
另一句老话说，我小时候家里没有现成的冰茶，都是自己在家做的。
The other saying, when I grew up, we did not get iced tea, we made it at home.
还有那些对金钱的不同看法。
And those different visions of money.
夫妻俩很少深入探讨到这个层面。
The couples rarely go into that level of detail.
我是怎么长大的？
How did I grow up?
我对金钱持什么看法？
How do I see money?
我们共同的愿景是什么？
What is our vision together?
相反，他们花了三十五年时间争论冰茶的问题。
Instead, they spend thirty five years arguing about iced tea.
我的意思是，在这个案例中，你是怎么解决的，或者你会建议这位女士如何处理这个茶的问题？
I mean, in this instance, how did you work through, or how did you suggest this this woman work through this tea issue?
呃，首先，她不再回复我了，所以我也没机会帮忙。
Well, first of all, she stopped responding to me, so I didn't have the chance to help.
听着，我只能帮那些愿意接受帮助的人。
That's look, I help who I can.
好吗？
Alright?
这在我的播客中是非常常见的情况，伴侣们会从外出就餐到支付孩子大学学费等所有事情上产生分歧。
This is a very common dynamic on my podcast, and two partners will disagree over everything from eating out to paying for their kids' college education.
有一个尺度。
There's a scale.
有一个范围。
There's a scope.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
但原则是相同的。
But the principle is the same.
我要告诉你，在恋爱关系中关于金钱最常见的问题是缺乏共同的富足生活愿景。
And I'll tell you that the most common problem when it comes to money in relationships is the lack of a shared rich life vision.
让我们退一步，为那些不熟悉这个概念的人解释一下。
Let's take a step back just for folks who aren't familiar with this concept.
你经常提到这个。
You speak about it a lot.
什么是富足生活？
What is a rich life?
富足生活可以是一年旅行两个月。
A rich life can be traveling two months a year.
富足生活可以是买一件漂亮的羊绒大衣。
A rich life can be buying a beautiful cashmere coat.
富足的生活可以是每天早晨送孩子上学。
A rich life can be taking your kids to school every morning.
所以你的富足生活属于你，我的富足生活属于我，它们将完全不同。
So your rich life is yours, and my rich life is mine, and they are going to be completely different.
我们很少提升自我去思考那些宏大的问题。
Very rarely do we elevate ourselves and ask the big questions.
嘿，这一切都是为了什么？
Hey, what is all this for?
我们共同构建的是怎样的生活？
What kind of life are we building together?
这可以是具体可感的。
And that could be tangible.
有时候就像我小时候，我们买不起开胃菜。
Sometimes it like when I was a kid, we could not afford to buy appetizers.
我们从未买过。
We never did.
就像，在外出就餐时（每六周才一次），开胃菜就像是菜单上的禁忌部分，对吧？
Like, it was just like a taboo part of the menu in the once every six weeks that we ate out, right?
所以在我二十岁出头时，我的富足生活一部分就是能点开胃菜。
And so part of my rich life in my early 20s was to be able to order appetizers.
现在，当涉及到你或你的伴侣时，这些正是我希望你们首先思考的问题。
Now, when it comes to you and or your partner, these are the kind of questions that I really want you to start by asking.
什么是我们的富足生活？
What is our rich life?
而且它们可能价格亲民。
And they could be inexpensive.
它们也可以相当奢华。
They could be quite luxurious.
但我们从愿景出发，然后利用资金努力实现它。
But we start with the vision, and then we use the money to try to get there.
我很喜欢这个例子，就像我想回到茶的例子上，因为它确实感觉非常，你知道，具有普遍性。
I love this, and it's it's like I wanna return to this example of the tea because it does feel so, you know, universal.
我们每个人的生活中都有一杯茶。
We all have a a tea in our life.
对吧？
Right?
那个买茶的人，或者可能我们自己就是买茶的人。
The person who's buying tea or maybe we're the person buying tea.
那么，我们如何运用富足生活的概念来解决这种冲突呢？
So how would we apply the concept of a rich life to addressing that conflict?
好的。
Okay.
首先，我想提出一个叫做D到C原则的理念。
First, I I wanna suggest a principle called the D to C principle.
这里的D代表贬低，C代表好奇。
And this stands for disparagement to curiosity.
与其问‘你为什么要那样做？’
Instead of saying, why do you do that?
这简直是浪费钱。
That's such a waste of money.
就像在说，嘿，你能告诉我那件事吗？
Saying like, Hey, can you tell me about that?
我注意到你每天都喜欢它。
I noticed you love it every day.
我只是想知道，你买它的时候会去哪里？
And I just love to know like, where do you go when you buy it?
你有什么感觉？
What do you feel?
这对你意味着什么？
What does it mean to you?
你可能会惊讶地发现，即使结婚二十五年后，通过保持这种好奇心，你还能从伴侣身上学到这么多东西。
And you might be so surprised that there are so many things to learn about your partner, even after twenty five years of marriage, by going to this level of curiosity.
从来没有人真正出于好奇而非评判地问过我们关于钱的事。
We have never been genuinely asked out of curiosity, not judgment about our money.
每当有人问我们关于钱的事，他们就是要评判我们。
Whenever someone asks us about money, they're about to judge us.
哦，那个手提包花了多少钱？
Oh, how much did that handbag cost?
哦，你为什么要买那辆车？
Oh, why did you get that car?
我们知道会被评判，所以开始退缩。
And we know we're going to get judged, so we start to shrink.
但我们正在做的是重新校准。
But what we're doing is recalibrating.
当我问某人，嘿，原来你每年有六个月都在旅行。
When I ask somebody, Hey, it turns out you love to travel six months a year.
我会说，这听起来太棒了。
I go, that sounds awesome.
你都去哪儿？
Where do you go?
你是怎么保持身材的？
How do you stay in shape?
你平时吃什么食物？
What kind of food do you eat?
我是真心好奇，所以人们才会敞开心扉。
And I am genuinely curious, and that's why people open up.
让我问你一个问题。
Let me ask you this.
比如，目标是让这个人停止在茶上花钱，还是这类对话的目的是什么？
Like, would the goal be to get this person to stop spending money on the tea, or what what's the goal of this kind of conversation?
也许也许实际上你负担不起。
Maybe maybe it turns out you actually cannot afford it.
通过询问这件事的意义，你们最终可以共同找到实现该目标的另一种方式。
So by asking the questions of what it means, you can ultimately both together navigate to finding another way to accomplish that goal.
这是一种可能性。
That's one possibility.
另一种可能是，你的钱多到冰茶永远影响不了你。
Another possibility is that you have more money than iced tea will ever affect.
所以实际上，这是在更深层次、更情感化的层面上建立联系，然后去看数字并意识到，我们一天买10杯冰茶，对我们毫无影响。
And so it actually is about connecting on a deeper, more emotional level, and then going and looking at the numbers and realizing, we could buy 10 iced tea a day, and it will affect us zero.
你们应该一起去喝冰茶。
Y'all should go get iced tea together.
那该有多美好啊。
How sweet would that Beautiful.
听你谈论金钱，你对此充满激情。
Hearing you speak about money, you're so energized by it.
你懂金钱的语言。
You speak its language.
你对此非常精通。
You're so fluent in it.
你能分享一下你成长过程中塑造你与金钱关系的经历或记忆吗？
Can you share, you know, experiences, memories that you have growing up that shaped your relationship to money?
也许是观察你的父母，也许是其他事情。
Maybe watching your parents, maybe something else.
我的父母是我看待世界的巨大榜样，他们是来自印度的移民。
My parents are huge role models in the way that I look at the world, and they're immigrants from India.
当他们来到这里时，你知道，他们并没有多少钱。
And when they came here, you know, they did not have a lot of money.
我父亲工作。
My dad worked.
我妈妈在家陪我们。
My mom stayed home with us.
我们有个挺大的家庭。
We have a pretty big family.
我记得许多塑造我世界的小事。
And I remember lots of little things that really shaped my world.
我记得妈妈每晚都会为我们做饭，我们几乎从不下馆子。
I remember my mom would cook dinner for us every night, and we would almost never eat out.
我是说大概每六周才有一次用优惠券去吃披萨的机会。
Like, I'm talking once every six weeks when we had a coupon to go to pizza.
那些餐厅对我们来说非常难忘，因为首先能外出就餐就很棒，而且这是件大事。
And those restaurants were really memorable for us because, one, like, just getting to eat out was awesome, but it was a big deal.
你知道，我们会向爸爸要两个25美分硬币玩街机，但不会多要。
You know, we we would ask our dad for two quarters to play the arcades, but not more than that.
那样就太多了。
Like, that's too much.
我们大概知道什么在允许范围内，什么超出界限。
And we knew kind of like what was on limits and what was off limits.
我其实很感激...还有什么是不被允许的？
And I actually really What appreciate else was off limits?
就是...这些记忆如此鲜活。
Just to it's so vivid.
你说了开胃菜。
You said appetizers.
开胃菜和甜点。
Appetizers, desserts.
我得承认本不该承认这个。
I have to admit shouldn't admit this.
我们全家就点两杯可乐然后一起分着喝。
We would order like two Cokes for our entire family and like share them.
你懂我意思吧？
You know what mean?
我们会往柠檬水里掺水。
We would water down the lemonade.
我完全理解你。
I totally feel you.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，对啊。
I mean Yeah.
就是这样没错。
That's how exactly.
什么东西都掺水稀释。
Watering down everything.
对吧？
Right?
哦，洗发水快用完了？
Oh, the shampoo's running out?
往里面加点水。
Put some water in it.
砰。
Boom.
你描绘的是一幅无比幸福的童年图景。
You're also painting a picture of an incredibly happy childhood.
我是说，虽然是你告诉我的，但听起来整体上非常温暖美好。
I mean, you tell me, but it sounds, you know, overall very warm and beautiful.
这些经历教会了你什么？关于金钱的用途或价值？
Like, what did those experiences what did they teach you about what money was for or what its value was?
你知道吗，几年前我父亲告诉我一件事，让我意识到他有一个我未曾察觉的愿景。
You know, my my dad told me something a few years ago that really it led me on to the fact that he had a vision that I was not aware of.
当时我们在讨论房子，他说，将来你买房时别买太大的。
So we're talking about a house, and he said, you know, one day when you buy a house, don't get too big of a house.
我问，为什么？
And I said, why?
我当时以为是因为我们买不起才没住大房子。
I just thought, like, we didn't have that big of a house because we couldn't afford it.
就是这个原因。
That's the reason.
他说，是的。
And he goes, yes.
好吧。
Okay.
你知道，我们只买得起力所能及的东西。
You know, we bought what we could.
但如果房子太大，孩子们就会各自躲进角落，不再聚在一起。
But if you have too big of a house, kids go into their own corner and they don't congregate.
而小房子能让全家人聚在一起，这才是构建家庭的方式。
But if you have a small house, everybody gets together, and that's how you build a family.
哇。
Wow.
我当时心想，哇，我父亲做了最了不起的事——把劣势转化为优势。
I thought to myself, like, wow, my dad did the most advanced possible thing you can do, which is turn a weakness into a strength.
事实上我们买不起豪宅，但作为孩子我们根本不在意这些。
And the fact that we couldn't buy some mansion, like we didn't care, we're just kids.
结果我们反而共度了大量时光，至今仍与兄弟姐妹和父母关系亲密。
But actually, we ended up spending a ton of time together, and I'm still very close to my siblings and my parents.
这就是富足的人生。
And so that is a rich life.
注意这并非金钱上的富裕。
Notice that it's not an abundance of money.
而是善用现有资源，并怀有美好愿景——这是我父亲最近才让我明白的道理。
It's actually working with what you got, but having a beautiful vision, which my dad only kind of recently let me into.
我很好奇，当你遇见妻子卡桑德拉时，你对金钱持怎样的态度？
When you met your wife, Cassandra, I'm curious where you were in terms of your relationship to money.
其实更有趣的问题是，你还记得恋爱初期第一次和卡桑德拉谈及金钱的情景吗？
And really, actually, I think the more interesting question is, do you remember the first time money came up with Cassandra early on in your relationship?
这是个很棒的问题。
This is a great question.
嗯，我是在纽约遇见她的。
Well, I met her in New York.
当时我们都住在纽约，是在一次烧烤聚会上认识的。
We were both living in New York, and I met her at a barbecue.
我记忆犹新，因为她当时笑得特别灿烂，那种异常美丽、灿烂的笑容。
And I remember it vividly because she had a huge smile, like a unusually beautiful, big smile.
啊。
Aw.
我特别喜欢她那种充满活力又积极向上的样子。
I love just how vibrant and positive she was.
有趣的是，我们第一次约会去了东村的一家墨西哥鸡尾酒吧，我不小心把整杯水洒在了她身上。
And it's funny because on our first date, we went to the East Village, and we went to this Mexican cocktail bar, and I accidentally spilled an entire glass of water on her, like a whole glass.
至今还记得她的反应，她只是哈哈大笑。
And I still remember her reaction, she just laughed.
我当时就想，天啊，这种积极的态度太有魅力、太吸引人了。
And I was like, oh my god, like, that kind of positivity, that was so attractive, so appealing.
于是我们开始正式交往。
And so, you know, we began dating seriously.
我记得最初几次提到钱是在旅行时，这其实对情侣来说很常见，第一次真正讨论金钱问题。
And I think probably money came up the first couple of times, like, when we took a trip, which is actually quite common for couples, you know, like, that's the first time you really talk about money, and so there's that.
但真正严肃讨论金钱是在我们订婚时，那时我们开始商量婚前协议。
But I think when it became, like, really serious, when we substantively talked about money, was when we got engaged, and we started discussing a prenup.
那确实改变了一切。
And that really changed everything.
让我也了解一下。
Bring me into that.
我成长过程中不认识任何签过婚前协议的人。
So I don't know anyone growing up who had a prenup.
我也是。
Me neither.
我原以为这是文化差异，但可能也与社会经济地位有关。
And I thought it was cultural, but it was also probably socioeconomic.
我只是不认识有钱人而已。
I just didn't know people who were wealthy.
随着你在商业领域成长，你会认识一些人，很多隐性知识就是这样传承下来的。
And, you know, as as you grow in business, you know folks, and there's a lot of tacit knowledge that's passed down.
所以就像在问：婚前协议到底是什么？
And so it's like, hey, what is a prenup?
我们大多数人想到婚前协议时，都觉得是某个有钱混蛋想坑伴侣，比如他们坐在豪华轿车里扔出文件逼对方签这破玩意儿。
Well, most of us, when we think about a prenup, we think it's some rich asshole who's trying to screw over their partner, you know, they're driving outside of a limousine, they throw some papers out, they sign this shit.
我就想：那不是婚前协议——那根本是《小富豪》里的情节。
I'm like, that's not a pre- that's actually just a Richie Rich episode.
那根本不像婚前协议。
That's not like a prenup.
于是我弄明白了它的运作方式。
So I learned how it works.
我当时就想，哦，这基本上是在讨论婚前财产的处理方式，也就是你在结婚前可能拥有的那些资产。
And I was like, Oh, this is basically talking about what happens with your premarital assets, the stuff that you might have before you get married.
比如说一方拥有房产，另一方经营企业，你们需要决定在最坏的分手情况下，这些婚前获得的资产该如何处置，要知道几乎所有情况下，婚后获得的财产都是平分的。
So let's say one partner owns a house, or another has a business, you kind of want to decide in the worst case of separation, what would happen to those assets that were acquired before the marriage, knowing that in almost all cases, anything acquired during the marriage is split.
我记得我们坐下来谈时，我的手都在发抖。
So I remember we sat down, and I'm like, my hands are freaking shaking.
我对她说，我有件非常重要的事要谈。
And I said to her, you know, I have something that's really important to me.
我辛苦建立了这份事业和资产组合，所以我觉得我们有必要讨论婚前协议。
You know, I've built up this business and this portfolio, and it's important for me that we discuss a prenup.
那你为什么紧张呢？
And why were you nervous?
你担心她会怎么理解这件事？
What were you nervous that she would perceive that as?
这些
These
对话总是充满了各种弦外之音。
conversations are so filled with like secondary meanings.
我害怕被拒绝，也担心被误解。
So I was worried about rejection, I was worried about being misinterpreted.
我什么都担心。
I was just worried about it all.
我从来没经历过这种事。
I'd never done it before.
所以她的回应实际上是我能期待的最好回应。
So her response was actually the best response I could have possibly hoped for.
她说，好吧，这我没想到。
She said, Okay, I didn't expect that.
我对这方面了解不多，但我愿意学习。
I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to learn.
太好了。
Great.
太棒了。
Amazing.
是啊。
Yeah.
从贬低到好奇。
Disparagement to curiosity.
从贬低到好奇。
Disparagement to curiosity.
就是这样。
There you go.
对啊。
Yeah.
而且
And
这就是我们真正开始探讨金钱对我们意味着什么的开端。
that was the beginning of us actually meeting as to what money meant to us.
这不仅仅是数字。
It's not just numbers.
实际上，它对我们意义重大。
It's actually what it means to us.
对于那些回避这类对话、或者坦白说害怕进行这类对话的人，我认为这种情绪是合理的。
For people who are avoiding these types of conversations or frankly are scared to have them because I think that's a legitimate emotion.
那么，你会说些什么来给他们勇气呢？
Like, what would you say to give them courage?
我其实会直接告诉他们该怎么说。
I'm actually gonna tell them exactly what to say.
我会把这个称为——这来自我的书《你的第一次积极金钱对话》。
And I will call this this is from my book called your first positive money conversation.
我特意使用这个术语，因为我们大多数人实际上从未有过这样的对话。
And I use that term on purpose because most of us actually have never conversation.
我们只会责备、评判别人，或者被别人这样对待。
We've only berated or judged or had that happen to us.
所以在一个积极的金钱对话中，你可以这样对伴侣说：嘿，我其实想和你多聊聊钱的事，而且我希望这个过程是愉快的。
So in a positive money conversation, you go to your partner, you say, hey, I actually want to talk to you more about money, and I want to feel good about it.
我希望我们能感到彼此紧密相连。
I want us to feel connected.
这是对话的第一部分。
So that's part one of the conversation.
只要告诉他们为什么这会很棒。
Just tell them why it's going to be awesome.
就这样。
That's it.
然后接下来你说，你知道的，现在当我想到钱时，我感到害怕，感到迷茫，感到落后。
Then next, you say, you know, right now, when I think about money, I feel scared, I feel in the dark, and I feel behind.
你呢？
How about you?
现在注意你在做什么。
Now notice what you're doing.
你在用脆弱性开场，然后把话题抛给他们。
You're leading with vulnerability, and then you're tossing them the ball.
这不是独白。
This is not a monologue.
你想要他们参与进来。
You want them involved.
如果他们没答案也没关系。
And if they don't have an answer, that's okay.
你不必强求，但你在给他们机会。
You don't have to push it, but you're giving them an opportunity.
第三，你说，你知道的，在金钱方面，我希望感到有能力。
Third, you say, you know, when it comes to money, I want to feel competent.
我希望感到平静，也希望感到有联结。
I want to feel calm, and I want to feel connected.
你呢？
How about you?
第四点就是，我们下次什么时候该讨论钱的问题？
And then the fourth point is just when should we talk about money next?
就这样。
That's it.
互相给个大大的吻，然后结束这一天。
Give each other a big old kiss and call it a day.
你不需要
You don't need to
在第一次见面时就讨论你那该死的资产配置。
get into your freaking asset allocation on meeting one.
你们要做的只是互相拥抱，感受美好。
All you got to do is give each other a hug and feel good.
就这样。
That's it.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
你指出的这一点我认为非常重要，开启金钱话题的方式应该是用感受和脆弱性作为引导。
One thing you're you're pointing out, which I think is really important here, is that the the way into a conversation about money is to lead with feelings and vulnerability.
我认为这与我们收到听众的许多问题非常非常契合，他们希望在你的帮助下解决金钱和感情问题。
And I think that's very, very apropos to many of the questions we receive from listeners who want your help when it comes to their money and relationship problems.
这是我们的第一位求助者。
Here is our first advice seeker.
这位是一位名叫米歇尔的女性。
This one is from a woman named Michelle.
好的。
Okay.
你刚才问到财务状况，这件事就发生在上周。
So you asked about finances, and this argument literally happened last week.
我一直在提议为我的伴侣开设罗斯个人退休账户，因为我自己一年多前就开了一个。
I have been talking about opening a Roth IRA for my partner because I had done one over a year ago.
上周我想帮他开一个账户，结果引发了争吵，他说我把他当小孩，认为这种事他自己就能搞定。
So this last week, I wanted to set one up for him, and it turned into an argument because he said I'm treating him like a baby and that this was something he can do.
我解释说已经提过好几次，但他从没主动去做过。
So I explained that I had brought this up a couple times, and he never once tried to do it on his own.
我不明白这有什么问题，这明明是在为我们的未来——甚至如果我们分手（毕竟我们没结婚）也是为他的未来做打算，这笔钱终归是他的。
And I don't understand what the problem is because this is bettering our future or even his future if we ever split up because we aren't married, so it would be his money.
总之这件事让人很沮丧，现在已经过去一周了。
But anyway, it's just been very frustrating, and now it's like it's been a week.
我要再次提起吗？
Do I bring it up again?
还是就此作罢？
Do I just leave it alone?
对此你怎么看？
What do you think about that?
这种情况很常见，能讨论这个话题我很高兴，因为其中涉及多个层面。
Very common, And I am so glad that we get to talk about this because there are layers here.
人们最常见的反应往往是：你只需要给他们看数据、算账云云。
The most common response people will often have is like, well, you just gotta show them the numbers and show them the math and blah blah blah.
数学解决不了情感问题。
Math is not going to solve an emotional problem.
我真希望能回到过去，把这句话告诉22岁的拉米特·塞西。
I wish I could go back in time and tell 22 year old Ramit Sethi that.
我真希望自己当时能听到这句话。
I wish I could hear that myself.
但这改变不了现状。
But that will not move the needle.
我还从米歇尔那里听到了一些非常有趣的背景信息。
I can also hear some really interesting context from Michelle.
米歇尔说，一年前我开通了罗斯个人退休账户。
Michelle says, a year ago, I opened my Roth IRA.
现在我告诉他，你为什么不也开个罗斯账户呢，这对我们有好处，等等。
And now I'm telling him, why don't you open your Roth, it'll be good for us, etcetera.
但如果我们实话实说，如果三年前我来找米歇尔说：米歇尔，你为什么不开个罗斯账户呢？
But if we are really candid, if I had come to Michelle three years ago and said, Michelle, why don't you open up a Roth IRA?
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你知道她会怎么回答吗？
You know what she would have said?
不了，我不懂这些。
Nah, I don't know.
没关系的。
It's fine.
是啊。
Yeah.
随便吧。
Whatever maybe.
我不知道，所以
I don't know, So
这种情况很常见：当一个人经历了自我发展的过程，无论是关于人际关系、健康还是金钱，我们往往会转向尚未经历相同旅程的伴侣，并期望他们能与我们同步。
this is so common that when one person goes through a process of self development, whether it's relationships, fitness, money, we then turn to our partner who has not gone through the same journey, and we expect them to meet us where we are.
事情不是这样运作的。
That's not how it works.
这个观点真的很棒。
That's a really good point.
这时就需要同理心和系统性方法。
That's where compassion comes in and systems.
所以我想指出的是。
So here's what I want to point out.
我敢保证他们两人对富足生活没有共同愿景。
I guarantee that the two of them do not have a shared vision for a rich life.
坦率地说，她可能是对的。
And candidly, she's probably right.
从技术上讲，他确实应该开个罗斯IRA账户，这种账户很棒。
Like technically, he probably should open up a Roth IRA, it's an amazing account.
但直接这样介入，就像我突然跳出来说'你需要换新鞋带'一样。
But just going in there is like the equivalent of me jumping in and saying like, You need to get new shoelaces.
比如，为什么？
Like why?
这里的背景是什么？
What's the context here?
比如为什么这根鞋带是固定的？
Like why is this shoelace fixed?
而且鞋带很麻烦，我甚至不知道去哪里买鞋带。
And also shoelace is a lot of work, and I don't even know where to get a shoelace.
明白了吗？
Okay?
从她的说话方式来看，我猜可能有点亲子关系的动态。
I probably, from the way that she's talking, I suspect there's probably a bit of parent child dynamic.
我在很多咨询过的夫妻中经常听到这种情况。
I hear that a lot in couples that I speak to.
你会发现经常有一方会扮演父母的角色，'你需要这样做'。
You'll often find one partner who will take on the role of a parent, you need to do this.
然后你猜怎么着，'孩子'那一方就会逃避。
And then guess what, the child kind of avoids it.
所以我们还有一种追逐者-逃避者的动态关系。
So we have a chaser avoider dynamic as well.
他们越逃避，你就越追逐，时间一长这种关系就会变得很有毒。
The more they avoid, the more you chase, and this becomes quite toxic over time.
治疗师们经常处理这种情况。
Therapists deal with this all the time.
这就是为什么我建议我的来访者去看治疗师。
This is why I recommend my guests see a therapist.
这非常非常有帮助。
It's very, very helpful.
但总的来说，我建议米歇尔先退一步，进行第一次关于金钱的对话，争取一些认同，要明白不必在第一次会议就解决所有问题。
But overall, I think that what I would suggest to Michelle is zoom out, do that first money conversation, get a little buy in, Realize you don't have to solve everything on the first meeting.
这个过程实际上可能需要九个月。
This this might actually take nine months.
甚至可能需要十二个月。
It might even take twelve.
但当他真正认同后，事情就会变得顺利，因为你不再需要充当说服者，你们两人将作为一个团队共同行动。
But when he is bought in, it is going to be smooth because you will not have to be the convincer that the two of you will actually be doing it as a team.
所以从这里开始，从愿景出发，问问'我们富足的生活是什么样子的？'
And so start there, start with the vision, ask what is our rich life?
我们希望自己的生活变成什么样子？
What do we see our life being?
金钱在其中扮演什么角色？
How does money fit in?
也许我们应该一起读本书，学习如何运作。
Maybe we should read a book together and learn how this works.
我来读第一章，你读第二章，然后逐步了解罗斯IRA账户等更多内容？
Can I do chapter one, you do chapter two, and then work your way towards a Roth IRA and more?
我想最后的问题是：在伴侣的财务问题上，多大程度的参与算是过度参与？
I guess my sort of final question on this is like, how much how involved is too involved in a partner's finances?
问得好。
Excellent question.
对于像米歇尔这样的人，我想鼓励她做的一件事是设定你的期望值。
For somebody like Michelle, one thing that I want to encourage her to do is to set your expectations.
你对伴侣有什么期待？
What do you expect from a partner?
比如说，如果我在约会，我可能会说，听着，我期望任何与我约会的伴侣至少能储蓄并投资10%的收入。
For example, if I'm dating, I might say, Look, I expect that any partner that I'm dating saves and invests at least 10%.
这对我很重要。
That's just important to me.
这是我的价值观。
That's a value thing to me.
而对米歇尔来说，可能是期望约会的伴侣能为退休储蓄一定数额的钱。
And for Michelle, it might be I expect that a partner that I'm dating is investing x amount for their retirement.
你并不是在指责他们不好或必须这样做，而是表达你对伴侣的期望。
And you're not telling them you're bad or you need to do this, but like, this is what I expect from a partner of mine.
你觉得这个想法怎么样？
What do you think about that?
很有意思。
It's interesting.
对米歇尔来说，第一步就是自我反省。
It's like a first step for Michelle here is introspection for herself.
然后你规划了一个充满同理心、带着好奇心的长期对话路线图，让她和伴侣可以开始探讨'我们的未来会是什么样子'这样的问题。
And then you laid out a a good road map of a compassionate sort of curious and long term discussion that she and her partner can start having about sort of what does the future look like for us?
包括罗斯个人退休账户还是不包括？
Roth IRA included or Roth IRA not included?
是啊。
Yeah.
问题其实与罗斯个人退休账户无关。
The question is really not about a Roth IRA.
目标是共同过上富足的生活。
The goal is to live a rich life together.
米歇尔，希望刚才的内容对你有帮助，我认为确实如此。
Michelle, hope that was helpful, and certainly, I think it was.
我们现在走吧。
Let's go now.
你正在谈论约会与金钱的话题，这恰好是我个人非常感兴趣的。
You're speaking about dating and money, which is something I'm personally interested in.
那么让我们继续下一个环节。
So let's play this next one.
这条留言来自艾尔。
This one is from Elle.
嘿，现代爱情。
Hey, modern love.
过去两年我一直在和某人认真交往，我们都已六十多岁。
I have been dating someone very seriously for the past two years, and we are both in our sixties.
从第一天起，由于我非常独立且经济自足，我一直坚持自己付账。
Ever since day one, because I'm very independent and I can afford my own way, I've always paid for myself.
如果某晚共进晚餐时他能主动结账就太好了，但他从来不会这样做。
It would be so nice if one night when we're out to dinner, he picked up the check, but he absolutely never does.
他最近经历了一场糟糕的离婚。
He has recently gone through a terrible divorce.
这就像玫瑰战争一样，因为他们都非常富有。
It was like war of the roses because they were both very wealthy.
我觉得他可能有些创伤后应激障碍，导致他不想再为女性花钱。
And I feel like he has some PTSD maybe where he does not want to spend money on another female.
我很想请教该如何向他提出这件事。
I would love some advice on how I can bring this up to him.
还是说我就继续支付一半的费用？
Or do I just continue paying half?
哇。
Wow.
信息量很大啊。
A lot there.
我是说，我在想我们之前讨论过这个。
I mean, I I wonder we did this earlier.
我在想你是否可以，比如，为艾尔设计一个提出话题的方式，或者找到其他切入点来展开对话。
I wonder if you could, like, script almost a way for Elle to bring it up or or another way into this conversation.
是啊。
Yeah.
首先，艾尔听起来很可爱，而且这个要求听起来非常合理。
Well, first off, Elle sounds lovely, and, this sounds like a very reasonable request.
我没听出任何不合理的地方。
I didn't hear anything unreasonable from that.
她说，我们AA制。
She said, we split it.
我希望他能偶尔请客买单。
I would like for him to pick up the check occasionally.
这在我看来非常合理。
That seems exceedingly reasonable to me.
考虑到他刚离婚，如何提出这个话题可能有点棘手。
How to bring it up, particularly with his divorce, can be a little tricky.
所以我可能会说，为了方便起见，我们就叫他约翰吧。
So what I might say is I'm let's for ease of use, let's just call him John.
约翰，我想告诉你，我很享受和你共度的时光，每周一起外出用餐是我最期待的时刻之一。
So you know, John, I just wanted to let you know that I love spending time with you, and one of my highlights is when we go out to eat every weekend.
我想和你聊一个可能有点尴尬的话题——钱。
And I just wanted to have a conversation with you about a topic that might seem uncomfortable, money.
我知道到目前为止我们都是AA制，我完全没问题。
And I know until now, we have split, and that is perfectly fine with me.
你知道的，我很独立。
I as you know, I'm independent.
我很乐意这样。
I'm happy to do it.
但随着我们关系更亲密，对我来说更重要的是思考伴侣关系和团队合作意味着什么。
But it's also important to me that as we go through life more, as we become closer, that we think about what a partnership looks like, a team.
坦白说，偶尔能由你来买单会让我很开心。
And if I can just be really honest, once in a while, it would be nice if you picked up the check.
你对此怎么看？
How do you think about that?
你觉得这个怎么样？
How does that strike you?
我们就在这里暂停一下。
So let's pause right there.
有些事情可能算不上完美的对话，但你可以根据需求调整，艾尔。
A couple of things that may not be the perfect conversation, but you can adapt it for your needs, Elle.
我想为所有听众强调我在那里做的几件事。
Couple of things I want to highlight that I did there for everybody listening.
第一，我总是以表达感激开始。
One is I always start with an appreciation.
这是我从我的治疗师那里学到的一个小技巧。
This is a little tip that I learned from my own therapist.
以表达感激开始。
Start with an appreciation.
嘿，我很喜欢能和你聊聊钱的话题。
Hey, I love being able to talk to you about money.
第二，承认你想谈论的可能是个有点不自在的话题，并给对方留退路。
Two, acknowledge that you want to talk about something that might be a little uncomfortable, and give them an out.
给对方留退路。
Give them an out.
比如说，嘿，如果现在不是谈这个的好时机，请告诉我。
Say, hey, if this doesn't feel like the right time to talk, let me know.
我们过几天再谈这件事。
We'll talk about it in a few days.
没问题。
No problem.
然后第三点，直接说出你想要什么。
And then three, just ask for what you want.
这非常重要。
This is so important.
我发现这非常非常关键——我曾与结婚二十二年的夫妇交谈过。
I find this to be a very, very I've talked to couples who've been married twenty two years.
他们却在绕圈子，如履薄冰。
And they're dancing around it, walking on eggshells.
听着，你有直接告诉过他们你想要什么吗？
Go, have you ever asked them what you want?
他们会说，没那么直接。
And they go, not that directly.
我说，根本就没直接过。
I go, not directly at all.
为什么不现在就说呢？
Why don't you ask right now?
于是他们二十年来第一次这么做了。
And they do for the first time in twenty years.
这太不可思议了。
That's incredible.
成为第一蕴含着巨大的力量，扎根于自我并告诉自己：看，我想要这个很正常。
There is so much power in number one, being rooted in yourself and saying, look, it's okay for me to want this.
他们不一定要给我，但至少我可以开口问。
They don't have to give it to me, but at least I can ask.
然后你的伴侣会倾听，如果通情达理的话，他们可能会像卡桑德拉那样回应说：嘿，我对这个不太了解，但我愿意学习。
And then for your partner to listen, and hopefully if they're reasonable, they might react as Cassandra did and say, Hey, like, I don't know anything about that, but I'm willing to learn.
这是个很棒的回应。
That's a great answer.
或者他们可能会说：你知道吗，我从未这样想过。
Or they might say, You know what, I never thought about it like that.
比如，你介意我再考虑一下吗？
Like, would you mind if I think about it a bit more?
但我爱你。
But I I love you.
我当然很乐意偶尔买单。
I would love of course, I would love to pick up the tab once in a while.
这是另一种方式。
That's another way.
另一个我们在后面无法播放的语音中提到的是，艾尔告诉我们她男朋友的收入比她高好几倍。
Another thing that we that was later on in this, voicemail we couldn't play at all is Elle told us that her boyfriend makes a lot more money than she does several times more.
这会改变你对这个问题的看法吗？
Does that change your thinking about this question at all?
这是...或者说这是...呃...
Is that or or is that something you yeah.
好的。
Okay.
百分之百。
A 100%.
什么鬼？
What the hell?
我怎么没收到这个情报？
How did I not get that bit of intel?
好吧。
Alright.
现在我们需要稍微调整一下。
Now we need to adapt things a little bit.
好的。
Okay.
当存在收入差异时，情况会发生变化，尤其是当你们没有结婚时。
Things change when there are income differences, particularly when you are not married.
我来举个例子。
So I'll give you an example.
当卡桑德拉和我约会时，我赚得更多。
When Cassandra and I were dating, I was making more money.
如果我要求她和我平摊旅行或其他活动的费用，那对她来说就非常不公平，因为我的收入比她高。
If I asked her to go fiftyfifty on some trip or something that we were gonna take, that would have been totally unfair because I made more than her.
这会让她在经济上陷入困境。
It would have financially drowned her.
这不公平。
That's not fair.
所以我建议采取比例分摊的方式。
So one thing that I recommend is to go proportional.
重申一下，如果你赚的钱是对方的三倍，那么共同开支你也支付三倍。
Again, if you make three times more, you pay three times more for the joint expenses.
外出吃饭这种开销我可能不会这么算。
I probably wouldn't do that on like dinner out.
那样就有点奇怪，而且太斤斤计较了。
That's just a bit weird and overly transactional.
但这个原则有很多种应用方式。
But there are so many different ways to apply that.
比如你们可以约定，每月各自拿出一些钱用于外出就餐。
One, you could both say, hey, we're each gonna put in some money to eat out every month.
我们估计每月外出就餐要花多少钱？
How much do we think we eat out?
为了计算方便，
Let's just make the math easy.
就按每月100美元算吧。
Dollars 100 per month.
收入高三倍的人就多出三倍的钱来凑这100美元。
The person earning three times more puts in three times more towards that $100.
对。
Right.
到时候谁想主动买单都可以。
And then whoever wants to physically pick up the check that time could.
关于埃尔多的部分，我想在我们继续之前先确认清楚。
So in terms of Eldo, I just wanna be clear before we move on.
就像他收入高得多这个事实，会如何改变你最初向她提议的谈话内容？
So it's like the fact that he makes so much more, how would that change the conversation that you suggested to her initially?
会改变吗？
Would it change it?
会。
Yes.
我认为会的。
I think it would.
这需要一些技巧，但可以做到。
And I think that this takes some delicacy, but it could be done.
首先，同样以表达感谢开始。
So, you know, number one, same thing, start with an appreciation.
嘿，我真的很感激也很喜欢我们能一起外出用餐等等。
Hey, I really appreciate and I love that we can go out, etcetera.
我希望我们能成为一个团队。
I want us to be a team.
比如我们出去吃饭时，谁来付账？
When it comes to us going out to eat, and like, just for example, who pays?
你对此有什么想法？
How do you think about that?
他会说，嗯，你知道的，我没问题。
And he's gonna say, well, you know, fine with me.
这样可行。
It's working.
她会说，你知道的，我同意到目前为止这都行得通。
And she'll say, you know, I agree that until now, it has worked.
而且，我真的很珍惜我们在一起的时光。
And, again, I really love our time together.
我不得不注意到，你知道的，你的收入比我高得多。
I can't help but notice that, you know, you make a lot more than I do.
所以对我来说的50%，实际上比你承担的50%要多得多。
And so what's 50% to me is a lot higher than what's 50% to you.
我现在不是来对你的收入斤斤计较的。
Now I'm not here to nitpick over your income.
那是你的钱。
That's yours.
但我真正希望的是，我们两个人能共同建立一种伙伴关系。
But what I really want to try to do with the two of us is to build a partnership together.
对我来说，如果收入差距这么大还要五五开，这种伙伴关系就不太合理。
And for me, a partnership does not make as much sense if we're doing fiftyfifty when the income is so different.
我还认为，如果他们已经在接受心理治疗，这或许是个绝佳的议题可以提出来讨论。
I also think that this might be a candidate for if they already see a therapist, this is a fantastic opportunity to bring this up in therapy.
因为专业的调解者肯定能帮忙解决这个问题。
Because a skilled facilitator can certainly help with this one.
我们稍后就会回来。
We'll be back in just a moment.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
好的。
Okay.
让我们接听下一位听众的电话。
Let's go to our next listener.
这是塞丽卡向你提出的一个问题。
This is a question to you from Celica.
我男朋友在我们恋爱初期就明确表示，财务安全对他非常重要。
My boyfriend was really clear at the beginning of our relationship that financial security was really important to him.
在我们交往一年半后，我男朋友发现我隐瞒了18,000美元的信用卡债务。
And a year and a half into our relationship, my boyfriend found out that I had been lying about having $18,000 in credit card debt.
我记得当时哭了，因为我知道自己破坏了信任，我以为我们的关系会当场结束。
I remember crying because I knew that I had broken trust, and I expected us to be over right then and there.
但他停下来，说：'我们接下来要这样做。'
And he stopped, and he said, this is what we're gonna do.
他制定了一个偿还债务的计划。那是非常艰难的一年，但我们成功在那一年还清了我的信用卡。
And he came up with a plan to take care of my debt, And it was a very difficult year, but we managed to pay off my credit cards in that year.
到今年七月后，我就能无债一身轻了。
And after July, I will be debt free.
我们现在面临的问题是都已经快三十岁了。
The problems that we're facing now are we are in our late twenties.
我们快30岁了，正拼命攒钱想买房子。
We're almost 30, and we are desperately trying to save our money to get a house.
我感到压力很大也很沮丧，因为我觉得是我们因为我而落后了。
And I'm stressed out and upset because I feel like we're behind because of me.
他做得很好，没有责备我，但我知道他的人生此刻并未达到他期望的位置。
And he does a great job at not putting the blame on me, but I know that he is not where he wanted to be at this point in his life.
我感觉这里面有很多故事，不过，我很好奇你们对此的第一反应是什么。
I feel like there's a lot there, but, yeah, I'm curious your immediate reactions to that.
首先，我必须指出金钱中展现出的那种美好的爱的方式。
Well, first, I just have to recognize the the beautiful way that love shows up with money.
不，我认为她不该隐瞒债务。
I mean, no, I don't think she should have hidden the debt.
这在亲密关系中是个非常糟糕的决定，但她男友挺身而出的方式确实令人惊叹。
I think that's a very tough and bad decision in relationships, but the way that her boyfriend stepped up is pretty amazing.
而且他们共同度过难关的方式实在令人印象深刻。
And the way that the two of them went through it is quite quite impressive.
负债是最让人感到羞耻的事情之一。
People having debt is one of the things that makes people feel the most ashamed.
Celica，我的建议是：你的价值远超过愧疚感。
And, Celica, my suggestion for you is that you are more than guilt.
你可以成为那个从过去错误决定中吸取教训的人。
You can be somebody who has learned from a bad decision in the past.
你不必用余生来赎这个罪。
You do not have to go through the rest of your life atoning for it.
你其实可以和男友共同构建一些美好而有连接感的事物。
You can actually build something beautiful and connective with your boyfriend.
最重要的是，你要能真正接受自己不仅仅是你人生中做过的那一件事。
And most importantly, you can actually accept that you are more than this one thing that you did in your life.
你远不止于此。
You are so much more than that.
解决方法是退后一步，拓宽视野，互相询问：我们向往的富足生活是什么？
The solution is to take a step back, zoom out, ask each other, what is our rich life?
我们的愿景是什么？
What's our vision?
如果我们想买房，原因是什么？
If we want to buy a house, why?
我们计划在那里住多久？
How long do we plan to stay there?
具体数字是多少？
What are the numbers?
哦，这个话题快让我激动起来了。
Oh, you're about to get me riled up on this one.
所以我想指出我听到的几个说法。
So I just want to point out some phrases I heard.
我们极度渴望买房，迫切地想要。
Desperately, we desperately want to buy a house.
我们压力很大，觉得自己落后了，而且互相指责。
We are stressed, we are behind, and there is blame.
注意那些言辞。
Notice those words.
它们就是我所谓的热烈情绪。
They are what I call hot emotions.
它们非常炽热，仿佛燃着火焰。
They're very hot, like there's a fire.
而对于金钱，我希望我们能将其降温。
And with money, I want us to bring it down.
我希望这些情绪能保持冷静、平和与克制。
I want these emotions to be cool, calm, and collected.
这才是我们对待金钱应有的态度。
That is how we want to relate to money.
明白吗？
Okay?
我们绝不该做出头脑发热的决定。
We do not want to be making hot decisions.
我讨厌我的生活。
I hate my life.
简直糟透了。
It's so bad.
不。
No.
冷静。
Cool.
即便你有信用卡债务，也可以保持淡定。
Even if you have credit card debt, you can be cool about it.
我的债务清偿日期是2032年2月。
My debt payoff date is February 2032.
酷。
Cool.
我要说一个可能让很多听众惊讶的观点：有时候买房未必是正确的财务决策。
I'm going to say something that might surprise a lot of listeners, which is sometimes buying a house may not be the right financial decision.
我觉得你这条理念非常有趣。
I think this is a really interesting sort of tenet of yours.
展开说说。
Speak on that.
为什么？
Why?
在美国，我们的主要信仰就是拥有房产。
In America, our primary religion is homeownership.
你能看出这是种信仰，因为人们根本不讲实际逻辑。
And you can tell it's religious because people don't use actual logic.
他们只会用陈词滥调，比如'你在房租上浪费钱'，或者'为什么要帮房东还房贷？'
They use trite little phrases like you're throwing money away on rent, or why would you want to pay your landlord's mortgage?
有趣的是，我们吃寿司时就不会用同样的说辞。
It's interesting that we don't use the same phrases when we go eat sushi.
哦，你在寿司上浪费钱呢。
Oh, you're throwing money away on sushi.
你付给寿司店老板的钱更多了。
You're paying your sushi owners more.
我为什么要在乎？
Why do I care?
我能吃到美味的寿司，他们还帮我洗碗。
I'm getting good sushi, and they're doing my dishes for me.
这很棒。
It's great.
但说到买房，我们真心认为创造真正财富的唯一途径就是买房。
But when it comes to homeownership, we genuinely believe that the only way to create real wealth is to buy a house.
如果我们不买房，我们就是失败者。
And if we don't buy a house, we're a loser.
我要分享一个相当令人惊讶的事实：我和妻子一直租房住，我个人租房超过二十年，而我通过租房赚的钱比买房还多。
I will share something quite surprising, which is that I have rented, my wife and I have rented, and I've personally rented for over twenty years, and I've made more money renting than I would have owning.
多得多。
A lot more.
所以有时候，租房并把差额用于投资可能是比买房更好的决定。
So sometimes renting and investing the difference can be a better decision than buying a house.
这里的关键原则是你必须仔细计算数字。
The key principle here is you have to carefully run the numbers.
你可以进行所谓的买房与租房对比计算。
You can run what's called a buy versus rent calculation.
实际上，《纽约时报》有一个很棒的在线计算器
Actually, The New York Times has a fantastic calculator
大声说出来。
Shout out.
这是我强烈推荐的。
Which I would highly recommend.
你会发现，以曼哈顿为例，这显然是个典型案例，实际上购买房产在经济上并不划算。
And you will discover, for example, in Manhattan, just as a very obvious example, it actually makes no financial sense to buy.
门洛帕克或阿瑟顿的情况也一样，房价极高，帕罗奥图也是如此，但现在西雅图等城市甚至其他城市也出现了类似现象。
Same thing in Menlo Park or in Atherton, very expensive, Palo Alto, but also now in cities like Seattle, and even other cities.
事实上，目前在美国前50大都市区，租房都比买房更划算。
In fact, it is cheaper to rent than to buy in 100% of the top 50 US metro cities right now.
那么我为什么要告诉你这些？
So why am I sharing this with you?
我需要你认真对待人生中最重大的财务决策。
I need you to take the biggest financial decision of your life seriously.
我需要你实际进行计算。
I need you to actually run the calculations.
你需要了解分期还款表是什么样子的。
You need to understand what an amortization table looks like.
你需要明白你的总持有成本原则上应低于总收入的28%，最高不超过32%或33%。
You need to understand that your total cost of ownership should be primarily less than 28% of gross, but maybe up to 32 or 33.
如果你连这些术语都不懂，那你还没准备好买房。
If you don't know what any of those words mean, you're not ready to buy a house.
作为一个无意购房的租客，我觉得这说法很有说服力。
As a renter who has no plans to buy, I find that very validating.
但我们还有一个要给你。
But we have one more for you.
这是一位名叫斯图尔特的听众发来的。
This is from a guy named Stuart.
过去几年，我和妻子因为钱的问题吵得很凶，但这次是关于遗产规划中的财务分配。
My wife and I have been fighting bitterly over the last few years about money, but this is about money in terms of estate planning.
我们刚七十出头。
We're in our young seventies.
我们相对健康，精力充沛。
We're relatively healthy, and we have a lot of energy.
我妻子想趁现在还能享受时尽可能多花钱。
My wife wants to spend as much money as is possible now while we can enjoy it.
我担心我们可能会耗尽积蓄，毕竟长期护理的费用高得可怕。
I fear that we might outlive our money knowing the catastrophically high costs of long term care.
另外，我希望尽可能多留些财产给我们的三个孩子。
Also, I wanna be able to leave as much as possible to our three children.
我幻想着他们会在巴黎开香槟，享用鹅肝酱，举杯庆祝的场景。
I have this fantasy that they are gonna be in Paris uncorking a bottle of champagne, enjoying foie gras, and toastiness.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你怎么看这个问题？
What do you think about this?
这类留言我们收到不止一条，我想你也经常遇到这种问题吧。
This is not the only voicemail we got of this sort where there is and I imagine you also get this question a lot.
一对夫妻对金钱持有截然相反的态度，一个是挥霍者，一个是储蓄者。
A couple who has these polar opposite approaches to money, the spender versus the saver.
你有什么看法？
What what's your input there?
这很常见。
It's very common.
我接触过许多夫妻，其中一方几十年来一直以未来为导向。
And I speak to many couples where one has been future oriented for decades.
我们需要储蓄，通常情况是这样的。
We need to save and typically, it goes like this.
我们需要攒够钱买房子。
We need to save enough to get a house.
他们买了房子后说：我们需要攒够钱装修地下室。
They buy we need to save enough to do the basement.
我们需要攒够钱送孩子上学。
We need to save enough to send the kids to school.
现在我们需要攒钱送他们上大学。
Now we need to save to send them to college.
与此同时，储蓄者通常积累了相当多的财富，这开始变得有点荒谬。
And meanwhile, the saver is typically accumulating quite a bit of money, it starts to become a little bit absurd.
比如，为什么不考虑为当下而活呢？
Like what about actually living for today?
这就是为什么我的工作被称为《我会教你变得富有》。
And this is why my work is called I will teach you to be rich.
这个频道不叫‘教你如何在高收益储蓄账户里囤钱’。
It's not called I will teach you to hoard money in a high yield savings account.
金钱的意义不在于储蓄。
The point of money is not to save it.
金钱的意义在于用它来过上富足的生活。
The point of money is to use it to live a rich life.
其中一部分需要勤勉地储蓄和投资。
Part of that involves saving and investing diligently.
我同意。
I agree.
但另一部分需要培养花钱的技巧。
But part of it involves building the skill of spending money.
我敢打赌大多数听众都没在这方面下过功夫。
And that is something that I would be willing to bet most listeners have not worked on.
所以实际上有三种关键技能。
So there's there's three real skills.
关于金钱的第一项技能是赚钱。
The first skill when it comes to money is earning money.
这关乎你的职业、工作之类的事情。
That's your career, your job, that kind of thing.
大多数人在这方面还算可以。
Most people, they're decent at it.
你知道，他们经常思考这个问题。
You know, they think about it a lot.
好的，不错。
Okay, cool.
下一个技能是管理你的金钱。
The next skill is managing your money.
即储蓄、投资，并建立正确的结构和账户。
That is saving and investing and setting up the right structures and accounts.
是的，我认为有些人在这方面相当擅长。
Yeah, I think some people are pretty good at this.
他们在这方面花了一些时间。
They spend some time on it.
第三个技能是有意义地花钱的技巧，几乎没人这么做。
The third skill is the skill of spending money meaningfully, and almost nobody does this.
现在，回到斯图尔特的问题。
Now, to Stuart's question.
是的。
Yeah.
我确实同意你应该做好规划，确保自己不会耗尽钱财。
I do agree that you should be planning and know that you're not gonna run out of money.
但我也想指出，我认为带着过多钱财结束一生却从未培养花钱的技能也是一种悲剧。
But I want to also point out that I also consider it a tragedy to end your life with way too much money, having never built the skill of spending it.
事实上，斯图尔特说，我有一个梦想，就是我的三个孩子在巴黎开香槟庆祝。
And in fact, Stuart says, I have a dream of my three kids popping champagne in Paris.
嘿，斯图尔特，为什么不带你的孩子们去巴黎呢？
Hey, Stuart, why don't you take your kids to Paris?
你在说什么？
What are you talking about?
你想从天堂往下看吗？
You want to be looking down from heaven?
带上他们一起。
Take them with you.
带上他们，让他们看看用一生工作积蓄后，现在能与所爱之人分享这一切的感觉。
Take them with you and show them what it's like to have spent a lifetime working and saving, and now to be able to share this with your loved ones.
斯图尔特，趁你在那儿，带你妻子来趟小旅行，告诉她：宝贝，我爱你。
And while you're there, Stuart, take your wife on a little trip and tell her, babe, I love you.
是的，我知道我想省钱。
And yes, I know that I want to save money.
有时我可能埋头在表格里，但那是因为我爱你。
And sometimes I might be a little bit in the spreadsheets, but that's because I love you.
但我也在倾听。
But I'm also listening.
我知道现在是时候让我们一起去体验世界各地的这些事了。
And I know that it is our time to experience these things around the world.
这就是为什么我带孩子们来这里，也是为什么我要留出只属于你我的时间。
That is why I brought the kids here, and that's why I'm also spending time just you and me.
这对我来说真是圆满的循环，因为我们最初就是以那个买茶的人为例开始的。
That is really quite full circle to me, actually, because we started off with that example of the guy who's buying the teas.
我们说过他们可以一起买茶，我真的很喜欢这个建议。
And we said one thing that they could do is buy the teas together, and I really like that suggestion.
斯图尔特，带上孩子们，为何不就此打住呢？
Stuart, take the kids, and why not stop at that?
你和妻子去一个你们一直想去的地方，来一次美妙的旅行。
You and your wife go on a wonderful trip to a place that you've wanted to go to.
一起去做这件事吧。
Do that together.
保持联结。
Be connected.
斯图尔特，给我们发张照片。
Stuart, send us a picture.
我最喜欢看到的就是夫妻俩用他们的钱创造这些神奇的经历。
This is the kind of stuff I love is seeing couples using their money and creating these magical experiences.
富足的生活不在于精打细算的表格里。
Life is not a rich life is not lived in a spreadsheet.
这是我们所有人都需要明白的重要道理。
That is so important for all of us to understand.
拉米特，在结束前我还想说，你回应这些极度脆弱问题的方式令人倍感安慰——你能真诚地说'这很正常'或'我见过这种情况'或'是的，这里有个计划，这里有话术'。财务、金钱和情绪可能变成的黑箱状态，我觉得你的处理方式非常令人安心，既踏实又充满联结感。
You know what I will also say, Ramit, before we head to the close is like, the way that you respond to these questions that are deeply vulnerable is incredibly soothing because you're able to say with real sincerity, this is normal or I've seen this or yes, here's a plan, here's a script, and the kind of black box that finances, money, and emotions can become like, I find your approach very calming, which is and and grounded and connected.
谢谢。
Thank you.
对你来说用'联结'这个词，对我而言是最高赞誉，我真的很感激。
And for you to use the word connected is to me the highest praise, so I really appreciate that.
拉米特，非常感谢这次对话，也谢谢你给听众们的建议。
Ramit, thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for your advice to our listeners.
我相信它会引起共鸣。
I'm sure it will resonate.
谢谢。
Thank you.
《现代爱情》团队成员包括艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、琳恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本集由里瓦·戈德堡制作。
This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg.
由戴维斯·兰德和珍·波扬特编辑。
It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poiant.
混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯，录音室技术支持由麦迪·马西洛提供。
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we had studio support from Maddie Masiello.
我们要特别感谢拉丽莎·安德森。
We wanna say a special thanks to Larissa Anderson.
本集原创音乐由卡罗尔·萨巴罗、黛安·王和丹·鲍威尔创作。
Original music in this episode by Carol Sabareau, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell.
丹还创作了我们的主题音乐。
Dan also composed our theme music.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
如果您想向《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或微型爱情故事，节目备注中附有投稿说明。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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