当我和父亲互相出柜时发生了什么

我很有竞争心。

I'm pretty competitive.

击败朋友和同事很有趣。

It's fun to beat friends and coworkers.

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我想回到你之前说的一件事，就是你害怕会变成你父亲。

I wanna return to something you said, which is you were afraid of becoming your father.

你是否也担心，你未来的婚姻会变得像你父母那样的婚姻？

Were you also afraid of your marriage, a potential marriage becoming like the marriage between your dad and your mom?

百分之百。

A 100%.

当我纠结于该选择与男人结婚还是与女人结婚时，我感到担忧。

I think when I was worried about should I choose this life of marrying a man versus marrying a woman?

我觉得，如果我选择其中任何一条路，是否就意味着必须放弃、隐藏或压抑自我的一部分？

I felt like if I choose either path, does that mean having to give up or hide or silence a chunk of myself?

这会不会导致我无法在这段关系中完全投入，最终让关系以某种方式破裂？

And will that therefore lead me to not being able to be fully in this relationship and for it to combust somehow down the line?

就像你目睹你父母的婚姻那样破裂吗？

In the way that you were witnessing your parents' marriage combust right It

这证明了我一直以来告诉自己的故事真的会发生。

proved the story I had been telling myself would happen.

由于我们刚才谈到的这些复杂原因，你对父亲有太多问题要问了。

You have so many more questions for your father for all of these reasons, these layered reasons that we're talking about.

那你打算怎么做？

So what do you do?

再打个电话？

Another phone call?

我飞回芝加哥。

I fly home to Chicago.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

这些对话最好当面进行。

These conversations should probably happen in person.

好的。

Okay.

我找到我爸爸，然后我直接说：爸爸，我们需要谈谈同性恋的事。

And I find my dad, and I literally say, dad, we need to have a gay talk.

所以，我

So I

等等。

Wait.

你真的这么说的吗？

Did you really say that?

我真的说：我们需要谈谈同性恋的事。

Literally, we need to have a gay talk.

所以我们去了

So we go

他这么说的？

he say that?

他回答说，好的。

He's like, okay.

于是他坐到门廊的摇椅上，我们前后摇晃着，而我进入了检察官模式。

So he goes on the porch swing, and we're rocking back and forth, and I'm, like, in prosecutor mode.

你什么时候意识到自己是双性恋的？

So when did you realize you were bi?

你为什么决定结婚？

And why did you decide to get married?

你的朋友们是怎么想的？

And what did your friends think?

你什么时候有过后悔？

And when did did you have regret?

你是什么时候意识到自己内心已经死了的？

And when did you realize you felt dead inside?

你问他了？

You asked him that.

是的。

Mhmm.

当你问他是什么时候意识到自己是同性恋的，他跟你分享了什么？

When you were like, when did you realize you were gay, what did he share with you?

他说，我一直都知道。

He said, I always knew.

而且

And

他交往过男人和女人，但当他和另一性别的对象约会时，双方都感到怀疑。

he dated men and women, and both were suspicious when he dated the other.

当他决定娶女人时，失去了一些朋友。

And when he decided to marry women, he lost some friends.

他搬到了郊区，他说，一些他的同性恋朋友因此不再和他来往。

He moved out into the suburbs, and some of his gay friends, he said, stopped talking to him.

不一定是他们对他所做的事情表示抗议，而是他们渐渐疏远了。

Not maybe because they were taking a stand against what he did, but just they kinda fell out.

他们活在不同的世界里。

They were in different worlds.

但他想要组建家庭，而这正是他想要的。

But he wanted to have a family, and this is what he wanted.

他说，他拥有过最棒的关系、婚姻和家庭，这正是他想要的，直到不再如此。

And he said he had the most amazing relationship and marriage and family, and it was what he wanted until it wasn't.

他反复强调的一点是：多年来，我一直感到非常幸福，这就是我想要的关系和家庭。

The main thing he reiterated was I for so many years, I felt so happy, and this was the relationship I wanted and the family I wanted.

但最近，这种感觉一直在内心累积。

And then recently, this has been building up inside.

但他无法确切告诉我具体是什么时候或具体是什么原因，而我无法应对的‘我不知道’比我能处理的还要多。

But he couldn't tell me exactly when or exactly what, and there was more I don't knows than I could handle.

你有没有

Did you

在那之后感到满足

feel satisfied at the end

这个问题？

of that question?

绝对没有。

Definitely not.

每次他说‘我不知道’的时候，我就试着换种方式问

I every time he said, I don't know, I would just try and ask

这个问题。

the question in a different way.

你有没有问他，‘我们接下来该怎么办？’

Did you ask him, like, where do we go from here?

有。

Yes.

我问他，他接下来打算做什么？

I asked him that, what's next for him?

他说，他想一个人待一段时间。

And he said, I want to be alone for a while.

你知道吗，我们之前聊过，你问这些问题是为了了解你的父亲，但同时你自身也正经历着强烈的困惑，关于你自己的生活、身份，以及是否想要结婚。

You know, we talked about how you were asking these questions to get to know your dad, but you were also in the middle of intense confusion about your own life, your own identity, and whether you wanted to get married.

我想，当你在伊利诺伊州和父亲进行这些对话时，总有一天你得飞回家。

I wonder having these conversations with your dad in Illinois, at some point, you will have to fly home.

对吧？

Right?

但我假设你们会继续交谈，继续了解更多。

But I I assume you continue to talk, continue to learn more.

你对父亲的了解，是如何影响你对自己处境的思考的？

How was that how was what you were learning about your father influencing how you were thinking about your own situation?

我觉得结婚是一个非黑即白的选择。

I thought of getting married as a binary.

你可以嫁给一个男人，过一种传统的生活，或者嫁给一个女人，过一种酷儿的生活。

You could marry a man and have a conventional life or marry a woman and have a queer life.

通过观察我父亲，我意识到问题不在于进入一段异性恋外表的关系。

And what I realized from seeing my dad was that it's not being in a straight passing relationship that's the problem.

问题在于无法做完整的自己。

It's not being your full self is the problem.

问题在于你不得不压抑自己的一部分，而这种事在任何类型的关系中都可能发生。

It's having to tuck away a part of you, which you can do in any type of relationship.

如果你必须压抑自己的一部分，无法完全做自己，那就会付出代价，因为这种压抑会渗透到你生活的其他方面。

If you have to tuck away a part of yourself and you can't fully be it, then it has takes a cost because it can seep into other parts of you.

如果你觉得必须隐藏某些东西，觉得自己的愿望不被允许，一部分的自己不被接纳，那么你可能会试图淡化其他方面的自我。

If you feel like you have to hide something and that what you want isn't allowed, a part of you isn't accepted, then you might try to downplay other parts of yourself.

我认为，这正是对我父亲造成伤害的原因。

And I think that is what took the toll for my dad.

但事情不必非得如此。

And that that doesn't have to be how it is.

在任何关系中，你都需要努力确保你的完整自我能够展现出来，并被接纳和爱。

That in any relationship, you have to work to make sure you your full self is out there and accepted and loved.

对你父亲来说，他一直在隐藏自己的一部分，而你说这造成了影响。

For your dad, he was hiding this part of himself, and you're saying it took a toll.

能再多说说这种影响吗？

Tell me more about that toll.

虽然我明白我想要的是，但到底这种影响体现在哪里？我们说的是对他造成的影响。

Even though I understand I wanna what what was the toll on we're talking about the toll on him.

这种影响对他的人际关系造成了什么后果？

What was the toll on his relationships?

从你的角度看，这种影响对他和你的关系造成了什么？

What was the toll from your point of view, what was the toll on his relationship with you?

我觉得他没有花时间去感受自己的情绪，因为他没时间这么做。

I feel like he didn't spend time accessing how he was feeling because he didn't have time for it.

他把这一切都塞进了盒子里。

He kinda put it in a box.

因为他根本没有认真思考自己的感受，所以他总是转移注意力，专注于一些更物质的事情，比如按时睡觉、吃早餐，这些更容易谈论的话题。

And because he wasn't really thinking about how he was feeling, he was he'd distract, really focused on more material things, like going to bed on time, eating breakfast, things that were easier to talk about.

但你真实的状态，是他不愿意去面对的地方。

But how you were really doing was a place he didn't wanna go.

这让我也不太愿意分享我真实的感受，因为我觉得孩子是通过模仿来学习如何谈论这些事的。

And then it made it hard for me to wanna share how I'm really doing, because I think kids learn to talk about that stuff when it's modeled to them.

当然。

Of course.

我从我父亲身上根本没看到这样的示范。

And I didn't really see it modeled from my dad.

所以我们从未能这样深入地交流。

And so we never got to talk like that.

结果，我对他隐瞒了很多事情，包括一个重要的事实：我自己也是双性恋。

And as a result, I ended up withholding a lot of stuff from him, including the huge fact that I too was bisexual.

我们俩竟然都在秘密地隐藏着这些信息，还共同构建出一种假象——彼此之间从不沟通。

This crazy thing that we're both secretly holding these pieces of information, and we built up this artifice where we're not talking to each other.

它

It

把你们分开了。

pushed you apart.

你甚至没有意识到，但它阻碍了你们之间的亲密。

You weren't even aware of it, but it it prevented you from from closeness.

是的。

Right.

现在你们分享了这个事实——你是双性恋，是酷儿——这让你们更亲近了吗？

Now that you share this thing, being bi, being queer, did that bring you closer together?

你有没有觉得你确实更亲近了？

Did you feel like you were yeah.

你有没有觉得确实更亲近了？

Did you feel Yeah.

我觉得更亲近了。

I think Closer.

我爸爸出柜后，开始更多地向我讲述他自己的事。

Once my dad came out, he started telling me much more about himself.

他谈到了他的朋友们。

He talked about his friends.

我终于了解了他以前主要和哪些人交往——比如我父母的朋友、犹太会堂里的人，都是很棒的人，但他自己真正的朋友并不多。

I got to actually understand who his friends were before he really was mostly friends with, like, the husbands

当然。

Sure.

我父母的朋友，我妈妈的朋友，都是异性恋者，犹太会堂里的人，都很善良，但他几乎没有自己的朋友。

Of my parents, my mom's friends, straight people, the people at synagogue, like, lovely, lovely people, but he didn't have many of his own friends.

他开始结交新朋友，加入了同性恋父亲的支持小组。

And he started forming new friends for he joined a support group for gay dads.

哇。

Wow.

他在那个支持小组里结识了很多朋友。

And That's he made a lot of friends in that support group.

他的社交生活真的繁荣起来了。

And he actually, his social life really blossomed.

他过得比我开心多了。

Like, he he has more fun than I do.

他经常出去玩，比我频繁多了。

He's he goes out on the town, like, much more frequently than I am.

他会以一种我们过去从不那样交谈的方式告诉我这些事。

And he would tell me about it in a way that that's not how we used to talk.

通过了解他的朋友，我才意识到：哦，我爸爸也可以有朋友。

And I think by learning about his friends, was I like, oh, my dad can have friends.

我从没想过父亲也会有朋友。

I didn't think of dads as people who had friends.

突然间，关于我父亲是谁的整个世界都向我敞开了。

And all of a sudden, was this whole world about who my dad was was opening up.

所以他搬到了芝加哥的一间公寓，这也是另一个阶段，我通过看到他的新公寓，更多地了解了他。

So he moves into an apartment in Chicago, and this is also another phase where I learn a lot about him by seeing this new apartment of his.

这是我第一次看到他的审美品味。

It's for the first time, I see his aesthetic.

结果发现他的审美非常好。

And turns out he has great aesthetic.

哦，那是什么？

Oh, what what is it?

太美了。

It's beautiful.

很现代。

It's modern.

有很多橙色的东西，比如橙色的椅子。

Lots of orange, like, orange chairs.

我震惊了。

I was shocked.

不是那种米色的橙色。

And Not beige orange.

哦，橙色。

Oh, orange.

是的。

Yes.

明亮的、明亮的橙色。

Bright, bright orange.

为什么是橙色？

Why orange?

他说，我喜欢橙色。

He said, I like orange.

我当时想，爸，什么？

I was like, dad, what?

这人是谁？

Who is this person?

我实际上也通过他的公寓来更深入了解他。

And I actually I use his apartment as another way to learn more about him.

他出柜了，而我正待在他的衣橱里，是的。

He's out the closet, and I'm inside his closet Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

试图弄清楚

Trying to figure out

这个人是谁。

who is this person.

我确实这样做了。

I Did

你之前提到过那套西装、西装、西装吗？

you mention the suit suit suit before?

哦，而且完全不一样。

Oh, and it's totally different.

现在我在他的袜子抽屉里看到了带有古怪图案的袜子。

Now I see in his sock drawer, socks with crazy patterns on it.

我看到他仍然保留着他的正装衬衫，但都被压在下面，取而代之的全是各种热带风格的短袖衬衫。

And I see he still has his dress shirts, but they're squashed over, and there's all these tropical short sleeves.

当我们和他视频通话时，他穿着一件亮橙色的肌肉背心出来。

And we'll be FaceTiming him, and he's comes out in this bright orange muscle tee.

我心想，天哪。

I'm like, oh my god.

这个拍截图的爸爸是谁啊？

Who is this dad taking a screenshot?

这个在视频里的人到底是谁？

Like, who is this person on the

不过，你看。

look, though.

他看起来很棒。

He looked great.

他身材健硕，穿着这件肌肉背心，太帅了。

He was swole, and he's rocking this muscle tee.

我从来没见他穿过那样的衣服。

I've never seen him in anything like that.

你有没有跟他说过类似‘老爸，你穿的是肌肉T恤吗？’这样的话？

Did you say something like, dad, muscle tea, or no?

你就只是继续装作没事一样。

You just kinda kept it pushing.

我们很难直接说出眼前发生的事——他正在彻底改变。

It was it was hard for us to just name the thing that was happening in front of us, which is that he is totally transforming

在

in

我们眼前。

front of our eyes.

我真不知道该说什么。

I I couldn't I don't know.

我觉得跟他谈这个很奇怪，因为即使我直接提出来，他也会说，‘你什么意思？’

I it felt weird to talk to him about it because he was still even if I would try to go directly there, he would kind of be like, oh, what do you mean?

我不知道。

I don't know.

他仍然没有。

He was still not

他穿着这件衬衫。

wore this shirt.

你就会说，不。

You're like, no.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

就像，他做不到。

Like, he couldn't.

他仍然不太自在谈论那件事

He wasn't so comfortable still talking about the thing

那件事明明就摆在我们面前。

that was so blatantly in front of us.

那情感方面呢？

What about sort of, like, emotionally?

他身上发生了什么变化？

What was changing with him?

你能感觉到什么吗？

Could you sense anything there?

他笑了，还挺幽默的。

He laughed and was funny.

而且

And

那是新出现的吗？

Was that new?

是的。

Yeah.

而且他，我的意思是，我也应该提到，与此并行的是家庭分裂带来的深深悲痛。

And he I mean, there was I should also say, like, parallel to this is a deep grief of the family splintering.

当然。

Of course.

这只是从这件事中衍生出的众多线索中的另一条。

This is just another thread of the many threads that emerged from this.

但他也很幽默、轻松，有点爱玩，而且喜欢找乐子。

But he also is funny and lighthearted, and he he's kind of playful, and he's wants to have fun.

他做了很多有趣的事情。

He's doing a lot of fun things.

你们会一起做这些有趣的事情吗？

Would you guys do those fun things together?

是的。

Yeah.

我们去了一家变装酒吧。

We went to a drag bar.

哦，那感觉怎么样？

Oh, what was that like?

那感觉是，我的意思是，我脑子里还是有个小声音在说，我爸爸是同性恋。

That was I mean, again, I still that little voice in my head, like, my dad is gay.

我爸爸是同性恋。

My dad is gay.

我和我爸在一家变装酒吧里。

Like, I'm at a drag bar with my dad.

太奇怪了。

Weird.

感觉完全无法理解，但事情确实发生了。

Like, it's not computing, but it's happening.

所以我只好顺其自然。

So I'm rolling with it.

那感觉怎么样？

What was that like?

所以我爸一喝点酒，就从老爸模式切换到同志模式。

So once my dad has one drink, he switches from dad mode to gay mode.

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

他开始跟服务员调情。

He starts flirting with the waiter.

他开始跟我讲他的约会经历。

He starts telling me about hookups.

我就说，爸，别说了。

And I'm like, dad, no.

太多了。

Too much.

太多了。

Too much.

太多了。

Too much.

这和你之前跟我讲的那个人相差太远了。

Is that is that is so far from the man you told me about before.

所以看起来他好像进入了某种‘游戏模式’。

So it seems like there's he's switching into this, like, game mode.

然后他会变回那个父亲模式吗？

And then does he switch back to the dad mode?

是的。

Oh, yeah.

比如，只要我们一离开酒吧，他就立刻变回父亲模式。

Like, the moment we leave the bar, it's back to dad mode.

我觉得是灯光、环境，还有喝点酒，这些因素让他变了。

It's like I think the lighting and being in that space and having a drink kind of switches him.

但当灯光重新亮起来时，他就说：哦，我是父亲了。

But then when the bright lights come back on, he's like, oh, I'm dad.

这对你来说很难应对吗？

Is that difficult for you to navigate?

我的意思是，这真是一个巨大的情境转变。

I mean, that's a big context shift.

是的。

Yeah.

因为当他进入父亲模式时，我依然有很多关于性取向的问题，试图套他的话。

Because when he's in dad mode, I still have all these gay questions, and I'm trying to pry.

而他可能会非常不愿意谈论这些事。

And you can be really reluctant to talking about it.

但随着时间推移，我看到他逐渐融合了这两种身份。

But over time, I've seen him merge these two identities.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

在这段时间里，你还在考虑是否想要结婚吗？

In this time, were you still trying to figure out if getting married was something you wanted to do?

我越了解我爸爸，就越清楚自己 Definitely 想要和凯勒布结婚。

The more I got to know my dad, the clearer it became to me that I definitely wanted to get married to Caleb.

我不是我爸爸。

And I was not my dad.

我越了解他是谁，越看到他和‘父亲模式’之间的分离，我才明白：如果你把这两者分开，这才是伤害你的根源。

And the more I saw who he was and how separate it was from dad mode, I saw, like, oh, if you keep those things separate, that is what hurts you.

如果你能整合自己，做完整的自己，这才是关系中最重要的事。

And if you can integrate yourself and be your full self, that's the thing that matters in a relationship.

无论你和谁在一起，是男人还是女人，都不重要。

It doesn't matter who you're with, being with a man or being with a woman.

无论哪种关系，你都可以是酷儿。

You can be queer in either relationship.

如果你采取我以前的态度，比如：‘我在和男人约会，那还谈什么双性恋呢？’

And if you take the stance I had taken before, which is like, oh, I'm dating a man, so what's the point of talking about being bi?

这种想法其实有问题，因为这并不是真实的你，也许这看起来没什么大不了，但久而久之，它可能会累积成问题。

There's actually a problem with that, which is that that isn't who you are, and maybe it doesn't feel like a big deal, but maybe over time it can add up.

我越看到我爸爸的不同，就越意识到他隐藏了多少，而问题就在于这种隐藏。

The more I saw how different my dad was, the more I realized how much he had been hiding, and that the problem was the hiding.

问题不在于他最终和谁在一起。

The problem wasn't who he ended up with.

意识到这一点让你明白，你之所以想和凯勒布结婚，是因为和他在一起你可以做完整的自己吗？

Identifying that as the problem made you realize you wanted to marry Caleb because you could be your full self with him?

是的。

Right.

凯勒布从不让我觉得需要隐藏任何东西。

Caleb didn't make me feel like I needed to hide anything.

不只是我的性取向方面，还有我自己其他所有部分——我的混乱自我、任何方面，我不断变化、成长的自我，只要我有任何改变，我都可以向他坦露，而他也能同样对我敞开心扉。

Not just the parts of my sexuality, but all the other parts of myself, my messy self, anything, my evolving, changing self, that if something about me were to change, I could still reveal that part to him, and that he could do the same with me.

而且我们的关系掌握在我们自己手中，可以按照我们想要的方式去经营，不必遵循任何既定的剧本，我们才是主导者。只要我们主动思考自己真正想要什么，明确表达出来，不再被迫去做社会期待的事，我们就能创造出我们理想中的关系。

And that also that our relationship was in our own hands to make it as we wanted, that it didn't have to fall to a script, that we were in control, and that if we set it up so that we could really intentionally think about what we wanted and make it really clear and not feel like we had to do what was expected of us, then we could make it what we wanted.

比如，这是一个很小的例子，但最后是我向凯勒布求婚的。

Like, one example, this is a small one, but I ended up proposing to Caleb.

天啊。

Oh my god.

给我讲讲那个故事。

Tell me the story of that.

我们决定由我来提，因为我一开始更不愿意结婚。

Which well, we decided together that I should be the one to do it because I was the one who was more reluctant to getting married.

我觉得最初更犹豫的那个人，应该由他来做出这个隆重的举动。

And I think it makes sense that the person who's more reluctant initially should be the one to make the grand gesture.

没错。

Sure.

所以我制定了计划，一个盛大的求婚仪式。

So I made the the plan, the big grand gesture.

我们回到了我们相识的大学宿舍，我为他做了一个解剖学心脏。

We went back to our college dorm where we met, and I made him a anatomical heart.

我亲手焊接了它。

I welded it.

然后我单膝跪地，把心脏送给了他。

And then I got down to one knee, and I gave it to him.

我说，有很多事情我都不确定，但你是其中我最有把握的一件事。

And I said, like, there's so many things I'm not sure about, but you're one of the things I feel the most sure about.

这只是一个小小的例子。

And that's a small example.

但对我来说，这并不小。

But That's actually not small to me.

你亲手焊接了一颗心，向你生命中的挚爱求婚。

You welded a damn heart, and you proposed to the love of your life.

这对我来说一点都不小。

That's not so small to me.

是的。

Right.

小是因为我做了不符合性别刻板印象的事。

Small in that, like, by doing what wasn't the gendered expectation.

当然。

Of course.

但总的来说，每个决定都是关于我们两个人想做什么？

But just in general, every decision as what do we as two human beings wanna do?

在我看来，我周围所有健康的关系，无论性取向如何，人们都是这样做的：我们是两个独立的人。

And I think in every healthy relationship around me, no matter the sexuality, that's what I see people doing is we're two humans.

我们各自想要什么？

What do we each want?

我们各自需要什么？

What do we each need?

让我们为自己做这些决定，而不是以外界对我们的期待为中心。

Let's make these decisions for ourself and not center what the outside world is gonna expect from us looking in.

你用这颗精美的焊接心形向她求婚。

You proposed with this wonderful, welded heart.

在你们的婚礼上，你的父母都来了吗？

At your wedding, were both your parents there?

是的。

Yeah.

他们两人一左一右挽着我走过走道。

We they walked me on the aisle on either side.

我原本担心那个时刻，但事实上，如果你两边都挽着他们的手臂，他们都在支持你，却不必彼此互动。

I think I was worried about that moment, but actually, if you're hooking arms with them on either side, they are both there supporting you, but they're not having to interact with each other.

所以这个安排完美极了。

So it was a perfect setup.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有他们在身边，感觉非常好。

Felt really great with them on my side.

他们都在，支持着我，而且彼此几乎没有互动。

And they were both there and supportive and not really not interacting with each other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们中有谁带了伴侣吗？

Did either one of them bring a date or no?

实际上，那时候他们俩都有男朋友，所以我们决定最简单的方式就是他们俩都不带男朋友来，所以不允许带男朋友。

They actually, at that time, both had boyfriends, and we decided the simplest thing would be if neither of them brought their boyfriends, so no boyfriends allowed.

我理解这个决定。

I I understand that choice.

这次真的不能带男朋友。

No no boyfriends at this.

好的。

Okay.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

我的意思是，听到你爸爸生活变得丰富多彩，我真的很高兴。

I mean, I am genuinely happy to hear about your dad's blossoming.

而且我觉得这听起来就是这样。

And I don't think that that's I think that that's what it sounds like.

他穿着橙色的衣服。

He's wearing his orange.

他出去了。

He's going out.

他正在与朋友和社区互动。

He's engaging with friends and community.

他在很多方面重新找到了自己。

He's like he's finding himself again in a lot of ways.

但与此同时，正如你所说，你也在经历真正的悲伤和痛苦。

But at the same time, as you said, you're also navigating this experience of of real grief and real pain.

是的。

Mhmm.

我想知道，对你来说，这两种情绪截然不同，对吧？

And I guess I wonder for you, those are two very different emotions.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Mhmm.

这种悲伤与看着你父亲时的喜悦交织在一起。

The sort of grief of it and the joy of watching your father.

这感觉几乎像是忠诚的分裂吗？

Does it feel like split loyalties almost?

完全如此。

Totally.

我现在真正看到了他新生活的代价，它给我的家人带来了多大的牺牲。

And I really see the price of his new life now, what it cost, what it cost my family.

我感到非常悲伤，也在想，这一切本可以避免吗？

And I I feel so sad, and I wonder, how could this have been avoided?

有没有别的办法？

Was there a way?

我觉得这样想并不太有建设性，但确实让人困惑：难道非得经历这么多痛苦，他才能有现在这样的感受吗？

And I think that's not a productive place to go, but it is confusing to think, like, did all this pain have to happen for him to feel how he feels now?

这是个大问题。

That's a big question.

而且我知道，你说得对。

And I think as you know, you're right.

你可能得不到这个问题的答案。

You might not get an answer to that.

但我会说，虽然有点老套但确实如此：你通过在与凯勒布的婚姻中做真实的自己，实际上正在活出答案，在很多方面避免了类似的事情发生。

But I would say, cheesy but true, you're kind of living out an answer by being your full true self in your marriage with Caleb and preventing, in a lot of ways, something like that from happening.

我希望如此。

I hope so.

我只能希望如此。

I can only hope.

但我觉得，我越常看到他，就越感到被肯定。

But I think the more I see him, the more I feel affirmed.

因为正如我之前说的，我过去总是对谈论自己是双性恋感到犹豫，担心自己是否该占据这样的空间。

Because I used to, as I was saying, feel hesitant about talking about being bi and feeling like, should I take up space about this?

人们会不会觉得我只是在赶时髦？

And will people think I'm just trying to be trendy?

而且我确实明白，我和凯勒布之间，这件事不该是秘密；如果我不谈它，如果我装作自己是异性恋，那就不是真实的我，这最终会付出代价。

And that actually know that there's a reason for me and for Caleb for this not to be a secret, that that if I don't talk about it, that if I act like I'm straight, that's not who I am, and that's gonna end up having a cost.

你发现你父亲的事情已经过去几年了。

It's been a few years since you found this out about your dad.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他现在在做什么？

What's he up to now?

他住在棕榈泉。

He's living in Palm Springs.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

当然，他过得很好。

Is Of course, he having a great life.

他有个男朋友，而且像我说的，他经常外出社交。

He has a boyfriend, and he as I said, he is out on the town.

我将在周六晚上给他打电话。

I'll call him from Saturday night.

我正坐在沙发上，而他却和朋友们酒吧巡游，玩得很开心。

I'm on my couch, and he's, like, bar hopping with his friends, having fun.

我觉得还有一种悲伤，那就是我们全家没有团聚在一起。

I think there's also the sadness that we're not all together as a family.

我妈妈在芝加哥，而我们都分散各地。

My mom's in Chicago, and we are all splintered.

但我认为，考虑到这种分离，他已经做出选择：我要搬到我想住的地方，和我想在一起的人生活，享受生活。

But I think he has chosen, given the splintering, that I'm gonna move to the place I wanna live and be with the person I want and have fun.

你和凯莱布，你们有了孩子。

You and Caleb, you have a kid.

是的。

Mhmm.

我知道这一点。

I know this.

当你的孩子长大一点后，你会怎么跟他讲你的爸爸呢？

How will you talk to your kid about your dad when your kid gets a little older?

我的一个愿望是，从孩子出生的那一刻起，各种不同的生活方式都自然地存在于他周围的空气中，成为再平常不过的事。

I mean, one thing I want for my kid is that all the different ways of being are just in the air around him from the moment he's born, that it's no big deal to be anything.

而且这是一件很自然的事情，没错，你的爷爷有个男朋友。

And it's very matter of fact, yep, your grandpa, he has a boyfriend.

他以前和你的奶奶在一起。

He used to be with your grandma.

你的妈妈对男人和女人都有吸引力。

Your mom is attracted to men and women.

你的爸爸只对女人有吸引力。

Your dad's just attracted to women.

你可以成为任何你想成为的人。

You get to be whatever you want.

我希望这一切都变得非常正常。

I want it to be really normal.

也许当他长大一些时，我会跟他谈谈他祖父一生中经历的痛苦，以及这些痛苦是如何源于他所处的时代，我希望我的孩子永远不必像我父亲那样，被迫在家庭和性取向之间做出选择。

And maybe when he's older, I guess, talking about the pain that went into his grandpa's life and how that was a function of the time that he was in, and that I hope that my kid doesn't ever have to make a choice like my dad did about having to choose between his family and his sexuality.

朱莉娅，

Julia,

谢谢你进行这场对话。

thank you for this conversation.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

朱莉娅·斯塔勒撰写的这篇启发了这次对话的《现代爱情》文章名为《从再见到米色，再回到再见》。

Julia Staller's modern love essay that inspired this conversation is called from bye to beige and back again.

你可以在mytimes.com/modernlove上阅读这篇文章。

You can read it at mytimes.com/modernlove.

《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、戴维斯·兰德、埃莉萨·古铁雷斯、艾米莉·朗、珍·波扬、林恩·莱维、里瓦·戈德堡和萨拉·柯蒂斯。

The modern love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.

本集由埃莉萨·古铁雷斯制作。

This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez.

本集由林恩·莱维和珍·波扬剪辑。

It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.

我们的混音工程师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。

Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.

本集的原创音乐由玛丽安·洛萨诺、阿莉西亚·贝图佩、罗曼·尼米斯托和丹·鲍威尔创作。

Original music in this episode by Marian Lozano, Alicia Beitoupe, Roman Nimisto, and Dan Powell.

丹还为我们创作了主题音乐。

Dan also composed our theme music.

《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。

The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。

Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects.

如果你想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或一段微小的爱情故事，我们已在节目说明中提供了相关指引。

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.

我是安娜·马丁。

I'm Anna Martin.

谢谢收听。

Thanks for listening.