我所有的男性友谊都去哪儿了？（重播）

对。

Yeah.

我之所以觉得那是爱，是因为这些好朋友占据了我太多的心思。

And the reason the reason why, again, I think of it as love is just the the amount of mental space these close friends occupied.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实花了很多时间在想，佩蒂会不会喜欢这首歌？

It was it was really spending a lot of time thinking, Petey like this song?

明白。

Mhmm.

本尼会不会喜欢我刚发现的这家披萨店？

Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered?

就是不停地想，从我的关系出发，有什么可以和朋友分享的。

Just constantly thinking, like, in terms of my relationships, what can I share with a friend?

你懂吧？

You know?

我下次什么时候能见到这个朋友？

When can I next see this friend?

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得你会和这些人永远做朋友吗？

Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

回来之后，山姆的友谊发生了什么？

When we come back, what happened to Sam's friendships?

请继续收听。

Stay with us.

我给我哥哥订了一份《纽约时报》。

I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.

她给我订了一年的订阅，这样我就能玩所有的游戏了。

She sent me a year long subscription so I have access to all the games.

我们会玩Wordle、Mini和Spelling Bee。

We'll do Wordle, Mini, Spelling Bee.

这让我们有了个人联系。

It has given us a personal connection.

我们会互相分享文章。

We exchange articles.

所以读了同一篇文章，我们就可以讨论。

And so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

报道、观点，不只是新闻。

The coverage, the options, it's not just news.

真是个多样化的礼物。

Such a diversified gift.

我当时特别兴奋送他纽约时报的烹饪订阅，这样我们可以分享食谱。

I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes.

而且我们前两天还刚分享了一个食谱。

And we even just shared a recipe the other day.

《纽约时报》让我们在一起的时光更有质量。

The New York Times contributes to our quality time together.

所有这些信息都触手可及。

You have all of that information at your fingertips.

它丰富了我们的关系，拓宽了我们的视野。

It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons.

这真是一份又酷又贴心的礼物。

It was such a a cool and thoughtful gift.

我们读同样的内容。

We're reading the same stuff.

我们做同样的食物。

We're making the same food.

我们的想法完全一致。

We're on the same page.

和你在乎的人建立更深的联系。

Connect even more with someone you care about.

了解更多关于赠送《纽约时报》订阅作为礼物的信息，请访问nytimes.com/gift。

Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes.com/gift.

那么，Sam，我真的很想聊聊你大学毕业后发生了什么，因为我想你并不是一毕业，友谊就突然消失了。

So, Sam, I really wanna dig into what happened after college because I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden, you know, your friendships disappeared.

但很明显，随着你长大，进入成年期，有些事情确实发生了变化。

But something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood.

你离开大学后，大概二十五六岁的时候，你的友谊是什么样的？

What were your friendships like in sort of your mid twenties after you left, after you graduated college?

大学刚毕业时，友谊非常棒，因为我当时单身，住在纽约。

Immediately after college, they were amazing because I was single living in New York.

我和不同的朋友合租过几套公寓。

So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends.

那基本上就是大学生活的延续，因为每晚都熬夜到很晚，经常喝啤酒、抽大麻，或者两者都有，还吃大量对我们身体不好的外卖。

And and that was like, you know, basically an extension of college because it was, you know, staying up super late every night, often, you know, with beers or weed or whatever, probably both, and tons of takeout that was terrible for us.

而且，你知道，我记得二十出头刚毕业那会儿，真的是我人生中最快乐的时光。但大概到了二十五六岁，事情就开始变了。

And, you know, just I I remember, like, again, having the time in my life in my early twenties after college, like and it was, like, somewhere around, like, 2526 that things began to shift.

那时候，我和很多朋友都开始觉得，嗯，我们得把自己的生活理顺了。

That was, like, when a lot of my friends and me started to be, like, well, we need to get our shit together.

对吧？

Right?

就好像有那么一个转折点。

There was like it was like this moment.

我完全明白，是的。

I know exactly what yeah.

那就是所谓的‘人生整顿期’。

It's the get your shit together years.

没错。

Exactly.

所以事情就这样开始了。

So that started happening.

我有朋友去读法学院，也有朋友去读医学院。

I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school.

于是大家就开始纷纷步入正轨了。

So this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together.

有人开始离开纽约。

People are leaving New York.

是的。

Yeah.

然后这种情况就开始了。

And so that starts to happen.

再后来，更大的事情——我觉得最重要的事情——就是大家的感情关系变得越来越认真了。

And then the bigger thing, of course, the biggest thing I would say, is people started their their relationships started to get more and more serious.

我大学时有个女朋友，我们决定搬到一起住。

So I had a girlfriend in college, and we decided to move in together.

所以我就从和朋友一起住，变成了和恋人同居。

So so now I'm going from, like, living with friends to living with my romantic partner.

跟朋友住的时候，基本上你什么都不用跟他们商量。

And with friends, for the most part, like, you know, you don't really have to, like, check-in with them about anything.

你想干嘛就干嘛。

You could do whatever the hell you want.

对吧？

Right?

而且跟朋友住，碗也没人洗，两个人都是邋遢鬼，谁都不在乎。

Also, like, with friends, it's like none of the dishes are getting done, and we're both slobs, and, like, we don't care.

但是，

But,

对，完全同意。

like Totally.

到了恋爱关系里，那就得认真了。

When you're in a romantic thing, it's like, alright.

现在你得把家务活当回事了。

Now you gotta take the chores more seriously.

你得真正地共享一个空间，是的。

You have to, like you're really sharing a space Yeah.

而且，要和某人一起建立一个家。

And, like, building a home with somebody.

所以，你会和你的伴侣商量你的计划。

And, you know, so you're you're running your plans by by your partner.

就这样，一点一点地，你和伴侣同居了。

So so little by little, you move in with your partner.

你出去玩的次数变少了，因为已经和伴侣在一起了。

You are going out less because you already are with your partner.

而且，出去的一个重要原因就是，哦，也许今晚会在酒吧遇到那个人之类的。

And, like, a big part of going out is like, oh, well, maybe I'll meet the person tonight, you know, at the bar or whatever.

而现在，你不再有那种动力了。

And and you don't have that anymore.

那种动力没有了。

Of a drive.

对。

Yeah.

而且，当你和你的挚爱在一起，想见就能见到的时候，这种想法就开始悄悄出现了。

And, when when you're with, like, you know, the the love of your life and you can see them whenever you want, this idea starts to creep in.

就是，我还需要朋友干什么呢？

Well, like, what do I even need my friends for?

我这儿什么都有了。

Like, I got everything right here.

对吧？

Right?

我有个喜欢聊天的人。

I have, like, somebody who I love to talk to.

还能和他们一起做别的事。

I also get to do other stuff with them.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Right.

而且所有这些都是打包在一起的。

And and it's all in the same package.

然后，你知道

And, you know

我能先停一下，就在那之前吗？

Can I can I pause it on just before that?

就像当时发生的情况，你和你的伴侣——也就是后来成为你妻子的女朋友——同居了，然后友谊慢慢变得不那么重要了，也许优先级越来越低。

It's like when this was happening, this moving in with with your partner who becomes or your girlfriend rather who becomes your wife, and this sort of slowly I don't wanna say like, the friendships becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority.

你当时意识到这一点了吗？

Were you aware of that?

我当然意识到了，因为有些朋友还因此抱怨我。

I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it.

哦，看看Sam。

Oh, look at Sam.

就像，你看，现在他有了女朋友，住在一起了，就没时间陪我们了。

Like, you know, now that he's got you know, he lives with his girlfriend, like, doesn't have time for us anymore.

就是那种话。

You know, that kind of thing.

说实话，当时我并没有特别想念我的朋友。

I was I mean, the honest truth is that at the time, I didn't consciously miss my friends that much.

我太兴奋了，一心扑在恋爱上，拼命想把事情做好，把生活理顺，就这些。

I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and so focused on trying to crush it and getting my shit together, all that stuff.

对。

Yeah.

其实并没有。

I wasn't really.

要说的话，我反而有点烦朋友，觉得他们在让我内疚。

If anything, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt tripping me.

我就想，哥们儿，别这样了。

I'm like, just get over it, dude.

我就想，你自己找个女朋友去，别来烦我。

And I e, get your own girlfriend and leave me alone.

对吧？

Right?

我并没有真的那么说，但我心里差不多是这么想的。

I didn't literally say that, but I was thinking something along those lines.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候觉得成熟就是找个对象，而不是整天跟朋友瞎混。

Becoming mature involved getting a romantic partner and, like, not goofing around with your friends.

就好像，你要是还跟朋友一起玩，就不算个真正的男人。

Like, you're not really a man unless you, like, stop hanging out with your friends.

或者，就像车一样。

Or, like, it's like car.

对，或者就是专注于你爱的这个人。

In, yeah, or hone in on this person who you love.

这让我想到，我们在节目里也聊过，就是你年轻的时候从不同的人那里得到各种不同的东西。

I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we we sort of talk about this on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life.

从朋友那里得到快乐，从那个人那里得到情感支持，从另一个人那里一起打篮球。

You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy.

然后你的注意力就集中了，遇到了你深爱的伴侣。

And then it's like it's just sort of your focus narrows, and you meet this romantic partner who you love, you love deeply.

然后情感、身体和快乐都集中到一个人身上。

And sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets narrowed to sort of one person.

这准确吗？

Does that feel accurate?

就像你把所有东西都放在这段感情上，友谊反而像是干扰。

It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kinda seemed like a distraction.

我听到你差不多是这个意思。

It's almost what I'm hearing you say.

是的。

Yes.

它们几乎成了一种奢侈品。

They almost felt like a luxury.

就是，怎么说呢，好吧。

Like, it's like, okay.

如果我连续两周不出门，吃得健康，不喝酒熬夜，做个好伴侣，那我就会奖励自己一下。

If I spend two straight weeks not going out, eating healthy, not boozing late into the night, and being a nice partner, then, like, I'll indulge.

这有点像吃垃圾食品的感觉。

It's almost like having junk food or something.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

那这段时间罗布在哪儿呢？

Where was Rob during all this?

比如，当你搬去和伴侣同居的时候，他那边是什么情况？

Like, when you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him?

你们当时有联系吗？

Were you guys in touch?

罗伯也搬到了纽约，大学毕业后。

So so Rob also moved to New York City and after college.

后来某个时候，他又搬回了波士顿。

At a certain point, he moved back to Boston.

我们还在打电话，互相写很长的邮件。

And we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these long emails.

我们会写三四千甚至五千字的邮件。

We would write each other three or four or 5,000 word emails.

哇。

Wow.

哦。

Woah.

对。

Yeah.

其中一些邮件在情感上非常成熟。

And some of them were really emotionally mature

你们当时在聊什么？

What were you

以一种令人惊讶的方式在交流。

talking in surprising way.

你做的这件事真的让我很受伤。

I was really hurt by this thing that you did.

你知道吗，我觉得你没有完全意识到你伤害我的方式。

You know, I don't feel like you you fully accounted for the way that you hurt me.

我来告诉你我的感受是什么。

Here's what my experience was.

哇。

Wow.

然后回信里写的内容，比我现在和男性朋友相处的方式成熟多了。

And then writing back, I hear that you know, stuff like like stuff that is way more mature than, like, the way that I now interact with my male friends.

但到了二十多岁的时候，我们还在做这种事。

But we were still doing that into our into our mid twenties.

现在没人再发那种邮件了，因为大家都改用WhatsApp发些简短的消息了。

And no one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what, obviously, everyone does, is WhatsApp ing each other, you know, short little things.

不过，确实是这样。

But but yeah.

所以，Rob当时在波士顿。

So Rob Rob was Rob was in Boston.

而且，那时候我很多最好的朋友都已经各奔东西了。

And, yeah, at that point, like, many of my best friends had dispersed by then.

然后生活继续向前。

And then life continues to happen.

跟我说说，接下来发生了什么？

Tell me tell me what came next.

然后我就结婚了。

Then get married.

恭喜啊。

Congratulations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

婚姻就像是恋爱关系的加强版，因为你会觉得，好吧，现在我已经结婚了。

Marriage is just like the relationship thing, but on steroids because you're like, well, now I'm married.

所以，当然，并没有明文规定说，你结婚了就不能去见朋友了。

So, like, I mean, of course, there were no, like, actual rules saying, well, you can't go see your friends now that you're married.

但内心会有一种想法。

But there's this internalized idea.

就是觉得，既然你已经是丈夫了，就应该多待在家里，而不是总跟朋友出去。

It's like, well, you know, now that you're a husband, you should be you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends.

你从哪儿学来的这种想法？

Where did you learn that from?

是谁或者是什么让你接收到这种信息的？

Like, where were you who or what, or where were you getting that message from?

我只是好奇。

I'm just curious.

我觉得最好的回答就是，这纯粹是一种感觉。

I think I think the best way I can answer that is that it was it was just vibes.

这种感觉来自多年来看电影、电视剧和各种信息，它们都在告诉你，男孩该做什么，男人该做什么。

It was like vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about, like, this is what a boy does, and this is what a man does.

一个成年男人还继续跟朋友混在一起，那就是个巨婴。

And a a grown man who continues to, like, hang out with his friends is a man child.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

成年男人应该待在家里陪老婆，或者在外面拼命赚钱，养家糊口，带很多钱回家。

A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing and making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot.

你知道的，对吧。

Know, that Right.

这就是你从各种文化输入中反复接收到的信息。

That that's that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from from these various, like, cultural inputs.

对吧？

Right?

就像，事情本该如此。

Like, this is the way it's supposed to be.

然后有了孩子之后，突然间你就忙得不可开交。

And then having kids, all of a sudden, now, you actually are insanely busy.

对。

Right.

我是说，我说“对”好像我很懂似的，但我其实没孩子。

You I mean, I say right like I know, but have not any kids.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You get it.

对。

Yeah.

你忙得不可开交。

You're you're insanely busy.

这辈子头一回，你真的完全不能想干嘛就干嘛了。

For the first time in your life, you you you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want.

没错。

Right.

结婚后你也不能随心所欲，因为那样对伴侣不礼貌。

You you kinda can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner.

但有了孩子之后，你要是还由着性子来，孩子会饿死。

But, like, if you do whatever you want when you have a kid, like, the kid will starve and die.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

你知道吗，我没想到的事情有很多，其中之一就是我要洗那么多碗和衣服。

You can't you know, the thing I was not prepared for among many things was, like, just the amount of dishes and laundry that I was doing.

就是没完没了地收拾。

Just, like, endless amounts of cleaning up.

然后好几年都睡不好觉。

And and then you're not sleeping for years.

抱歉吓到你不要孩子了，

Sorry to scare you off from having kids,

但是不会。

but No.

挺好的。

It's good.

那就好。

That's good to hear.

你很快就会习惯的，我是说，你会习惯的。

You you quickly well, I say you get used to it.

其实根本习惯不了。

You don't get used to it.

所以那时候你真的没那么多时间跟朋友聚了。

So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point.

但后来发生的情况是，我拒绝朋友的次数变多了，或者干脆不怎么主动联系他们，因为我确实忙得焦头烂额。

But what what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more or just, like, not reaching out to friends as much because I I was genuinely swamped.

而且我也很累，晚上根本不想出门。

And I was I was tired, and I didn't wanna go out at night.

就想尽量睡个好觉什么的。

Wanted to try to get a good night's sleep or whatever.

对吧？

Right?

但真正开始对友谊产生破坏性影响的时候，是这样的。

But the part where it started to get truly, like, corrosive to my friendships was, okay.

孩子那边的情况开始稍微轻松一点了。

Things start getting a little bit easier with the kids.

比如，他们开始接受睡眠训练了。

Like, they get sleep trained.

现在我睡得更好了。

Now I'm sleeping better.

我更有规律了，知道怎么更快地洗衣服，而且我确实有更多空闲时间了。

I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster, and, like, I do have a little bit more free time on my hands.

但是，哎呀，我已经好几个月没和朋友出去玩了。

But, uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend.

我还知道怎么和朋友出去玩吗？

Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore?

比如，我们还能聊些什么呢？

Like, what are we even gonna talk about?

好的。

Okay.

这就是我想关注的。

That's what I wanna focus on.

是不是有那么一刻，你在孩子和各种责任——当然都是正经事——的模糊忙碌中抬起头来，心想：天哪。

It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up amidst the blur of of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course, and said like, oh my god.

我已经好几个月没见罗布了，或者换成别的朋友也行。

It's been months since I've seen Rob or insert other friend here.

这个想法是怎么冒出来的？

Like, how did that realization come to you?

你当时是什么感觉？

And what did it feel like?

嗯，我开始跟我老婆开玩笑。

Well well, I I started joking around with my wife.

你知道吗？

You know?

看看我。

Look at me.

我好像快变成那种典型的孤独美国男人的数据点了。

I'm, like, becoming one of these cliche data points of, like, the lonely American male.

但那还是有点像开玩笑，我没太当真。

But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously.

然后到了某个时候，我开始觉得，哎，等等。

And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like, oh, wait a second.

这其实是个问题。

This is actually a problem.

像很多新父母一样，我和我妻子为了孩子吵架，你懂的，比如谁做了更少的责任，谁该得到更多之类的。

Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like, who did the late you know, who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this?

那正是我生活中那种情绪化的时刻，我本该去找那些和我经历完全相同事情的朋友聊聊。

And it was it was exactly the kind of emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who were going through the exact same thing that I was going through.

因为我有些朋友几乎和我同时有了孩子。

Because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did.

但我没有联系他们。

And I wasn't reaching out to them.

我没有人可以倾诉，尤其是如果我和我妻子刚吵完架什么的，我该怎么办？

I had no one to especially if, like, my wife and I were in a place where, you know, we had just gotten into an argument or something like, what am I gonna do?

比如，跟我老婆聊聊我有多难，结果却吵起来了

Just, like, talk to my wife about how hard it was that I got into

吵起来了？

an argument?

就拿这个例子来说吧。

Let's take that

对。

Yeah.

就拿这个例子来说。

Sort of example.

你会不会拿起手机，想着给朋友发个信息或打个电话，然后心里就想，

Would you like go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like,

我是说

I mean

带我走一遍那个思考过程吧。

Like, take me through that thought process.

你会怎么做？

What would you do?

说起来挺有意思的。

I mean, it's funny.

我可能会拿起手机，想着给朋友发个消息，看看他有没有空聊聊。

I would like go to my phone, be like, I'm gonna text my friend and see if he's around to talk.

然后我又会想，我真的要谈这件事吗？

And then I would be like, do I really wanna get into it?

接着又会想，我真的要把自己的烦恼强加给朋友吗？他也有自己的事情要忙。然后我就想，你知道吗？

And then I'd be like, do I really wanna impose my whining on my friend who's also got his own shit going on and, like, you know, you know what?

哦，看这个。

Oh, look.

这个播客出新的一集了。

There's a new episode of this podcast.

点开。

Click.

结果我就去听播客了。

And then I end up listening to podcast.

最后我听了大量的播客，而不是给朋友打电话。

And I just ended up listening to tremendous number of podcasts instead of calling friends.

这听起来可能特别老套，但确实是我真实经历的事。

That is that is act like, it's it's feels like the most cliched thing ever, but that is actually what happened to me.

跟我说说，你当时都听哪些节目？

Tell me what show what what shows you were turning to?

你不打电话给朋友的时候，都在听什么？

What were you listening to instead of calling a friend?

我一开始其实听的是关于冥想的播客，因为听说冥想对人有好处，而且当你家里有

So I started out actually listening to, like, podcasts about meditation because I had heard that meditation was good for you and, like When you have

小孩子的时候，确实需要。

small kids, certainly.

当然。

Of course.

然后呢，你知道，我开始往下走，虽然不能说是什么无底洞，但后来我慢慢开始听《乔·罗根体验》了，因为他请过各种各样的嘉宾。

And and then, like, you know, started going I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole, but I, you know, I started like eventually, like, I started listening to the Joe Rogan experience because he just has had everyone on his show.

而且他一聊就是四个半小时。

And he's talking for, like, four and a half hours.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他确实聊得特别特别久。

He's talking for a long, long, long time.

但是呢，你知道，他请过天体物理学家上节目。

But but, you know, like, he'd have astrophysicists on his show.

他还请过迈克尔·波伦，我刚读完他的书，特别想听他多聊聊。

He'd have Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read, and really wanted to hear more from Michael Pollan on his show.

他还请过一位斯坦福教授，讲多巴胺和成瘾科学。

He he had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and and and addiction science.

然后，你知道，我就，我就听他的节目，想从中获取一些生活小窍门之类的。

And, you know, I so so I would I would listen to his shows just to try to pick up whatever, life hacks or whatever.

完全同意。

Totally.

再说一次，我这么做是因为我感到不知所措、孤独，所有这些感觉。

Again, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings.

而不是去和别人交流，或者给朋友打电话。嗯。

And instead of relating to other people and calling a friend Mhmm.

我就想，好吧，我可以自己解决这些问题。

I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own.

我就，就听些播客，然后从播客里得到答案。

I'll I'll just listen to some podcasts, and I'll get the answers from the podcast.

对。

Yeah.

我可以全靠自己搞定。

I can do this all on my own.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这其实是一种孤立的自我依赖。

I mean, it it's this kind of rogue self sufficiency.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我情绪不太好，或者别的什么，我想解决这个问题。

Like, I'm not feeling so good emotionally or or or whatever, and I want to address this.

但你知道，我打算通过听、学习和自我提升来自己搞定。

But, you know, I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working on myself.

罗根节目里有一点很吸引我，基本上就是，别再找借口了，像个男人一样，你懂的——对。

There was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically like, stop making excuses, man up, you know Yeah.

我这是打引号说的。

I'm using that in air quotes.

但就是，像个男人一样，而且基本上，你现在能改变生活的最简单方法——所有这些播客都这么说。

But like, man up, and basically, the easiest thing you could do right now to change your life all of these podcasts said this.

去锻炼吧。

Go work out.

去运动。

Go work out.

停下来。

Stop.

别胡思乱想了。

Get out of your head.

去举铁吧。

Pump some goddamn iron.

对。

Yeah.

你明白吗？

You know?

而且他们都这么说。

And and they all said this.

然后我就想，哦，这挺有意思的。

And and I was like, oh, that's interesting.

也许我该试试看。

Like, maybe I should try that.

你明白吗？

You know?

就是说，如果你好好照顾自己的身体，不仅会变得更健康，而且生活中的其他事情也会跟着顺起来。

Like, if you just take care of your body, not only are you gonna get healthier, but, like, everything else in your life is gonna fall into place.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得某种程度上，它之所以这么吸引我，部分原因是我知道，虽然坚持锻炼、举重很辛苦，但在某个层面上，这比做深层次的情感功课要容易。

I think in a way, part of the reason why it appealed so much was it's like, I knew that even though it's really hard to exercise all the time and lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work.

所以我就想，好吧。

So I was like, well, alright.

那我就试试这个吧。

I'll just try that.

那会儿我在想，我三十多岁快四十岁的时候，每个空闲时间都在干什么呢？

And it was like, what was I doing in my late thirties and early forties every spare moment I had?

我都在锻炼。

I was exercising.

我去练CrossFit。

I was going to CrossFit.

我在展望公园里跑步。

I was running outside in Prospect Park Mhmm.

冒着冰冷的雨跑。

Through freezing cold rain Yeah.

因为我觉得，至少我这么做的话，就能克服那些孤独的感觉。

Because, you know, I had this idea that, like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to, like, basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having.

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

所以，这就是身体上的升华。

And and and so physical sublimation.

对。

Yeah.

基本上就是那种想法，生活是用来征服的，不是用来享受的。

And it was it was the idea, basically, that, like, life was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed.

而且这也是一种孤独的，就像，去举起这个东西。

I mean and it also is a it's a solitary it's like, go and lift this thing.

然后当它变容易了，就举更重的。

And then when that gets easy, lift it heavier.

对。

Yeah.

改变自己的力量在你内心，而且这仍然是非常个人化的，内在的。

The power is within you to change you, and it's still very, like, individual focused intrapersonal.

所以我能理解为什么它会吸引人。

So I can see why it would appeal.

我在想，这是不是你刻意做出的选择，比如转向播客、健身这些，而不是去交朋友？

I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your end to to turn, like, towards these podcasts or or working out or whatever instead of friends?

你当时意识到自己在往那个方向转移吗？

Like, you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way?

我觉得我当时并没有意识到。

I don't think I was aware of it.

对。

Mhmm.

我当时还在告诉自己，你太忙了，没时间交朋友。

I think I think I was still telling myself, you know, you don't have time for friends because you're so busy.

我也在否认自己感到孤独。

I was also in denial about being lonely.

对吧？

Right?

我只知道自己感觉不好，想要感觉好一点。

I just knew that I felt I felt bad, and I wanted to feel good.

我当时就想，哦，那我去运动一下，心情就会好。

And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good.

运动完确实暂时感觉不错。

And I did feel good temporarily.

那些内啡肽，就是他们承诺会有的那种，确实来了。

There were the endorphins that that that they promised me would happen.

它们真的来了。

They came.

完全同意。

Totally.

我觉得这点真的很重要。

I think that's a really important point.

而且我真的觉得，承认自己孤独这件事，还是让人很不舒服，就像我们对给自己贴上‘孤独’的标签很抵触一样，因为承认这一点，不仅是对自己，还要大声说出来，这太脆弱了。

And I'm I really think that there is still something very icky and, like, we're allergic to self identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud.

所以首先，谢谢你愿意说出来。

So first of all, thanks for saying that.

但我理解为什么人们会把它包裹在层层保护中，说‘我不是那种会感到孤独的人’。

But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of, I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely.

而且，你看，文化里还有‘incel’这一整套说法。

And also, like, look, there's this whole thing in the culture of the incel.

对吧？

Right?

就是‘非自愿独身者’。

The involuntary celibate.

对吧？

Right?

就是那个

The

坐在妈妈地下室里、对着电脑的孤独男人。

lonely guy sitting in his mom's basement on his computer.

那是人们对孤独男人的刻板印象。

That's the stereotype of of a lonely man.

我觉得每个感到孤独的男人都害怕被归入那个群体。

And I think I think every man who feels lonely is terrified of being grouped in with that.

真有意思。

So interesting.

对。

Yeah.

就好像如果我承认自己孤独，别人会不会觉得我是个什么怪胎之类的？

It's like if I if I admit that I'm lonely, then, you know, are people gonna think I'm some kind of incel freak or whatever?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得这是原因之一。

So I think that's a part of it.

而且你会用尽所有形容词，就是不说孤独。

And you're gonna use every adjective except for lonely.

你当时在给朋友打电话却转而录播客的时候，你在害怕什么？

What were you afraid of in calling you know, when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast?

你当时担心会发生什么？

What were you what were you worried would happen?

是什么在阻止你？

Like, what was stopping you?

我害怕朋友们会觉得我太粘人。

I was afraid that my friends would think that I was needy.

我不是那种兄弟会的类型。

I'm not like a a bro.

我从小在一个非常女权主义的家庭长大。

I grew up with, like, a super in a super feminist household.

即便如此，我内心深处也深深认同一个观念：男人示弱就等于不像个男人。

Even I had so deeply internalized the idea that showing weakness as a man is tantamount to not being a man.

而我只是不想不像个男人。

And I just didn't want to not be a man.

是的。

Yeah.

我害怕如果我打电话说，‘嘿，兄弟，我真的好孤单，一个人待着让我很难过，你知道，我只是想告诉你这些。’

I was afraid that if I called and and said, hey, man, like, I'm I'm really lonely, and it makes me sad to be alone, and, you know, I just needed to tell you.

我害怕他们会觉得，‘哦，天哪。’

I was afraid that they'd be like, oh, god.

什么？

What?

这也太软弱了吧。

That's so soft.

你是在开玩笑吗？

Like, you kidding me?

因为，你知道，我从小就被灌输一种观念，基本上，男人之间交流感情的主要方式，除非是凌晨四点，而且你已经热身好了——对吧。

Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically, like, the the main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4AM and you've been warming up Right.

在睡衣派对上聊了很久。

A lot at a sleepover party

对。

Right.

而且我觉得，作为一个男人，表达情感的主要方式基本上只有两种是能被接受的，一种是开玩笑，另一种是发火。

And and the main way of just, like, emoting generally as a man, I find, like, there are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，你可以

Like, you're allowed to

真有意思。

So interesting.

你可以跟别的男人打架，但不能拥抱他们。

You're allowed to fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude.

所以我要么可以生气，要么可以开玩笑。

So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around.

所以如果我打电话给朋友，真诚地跟他聊我内心的悲伤之类的，他会不会觉得我……你知道，可以用很多贬义词来形容

So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere in talking about, like, the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he gonna think that I'm, like, you know, could use many different derogatory ways to say

不够男人。

less of a man.

这真的很有意思，我很感谢你把这些讲清楚。

That's so interesting, and I really appreciate you laying it out.

不过，我在想，你之前提到你年轻的时候。

But, you know, I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger.

那时候你和朋友们有很多深入的情感交流。

You had all these deeply emotional conversations with your friends.

我特别想到你和罗伯互相写的那几封邮件。

I'm thinking specifically about those emails you and Rob sent to each other.

你说罗伯是你最亲近的朋友之一。

You said that Rob was one of your closest friends.

你们后来还有联系吗？

Were you in touch with him at all?

就是说，你们的关系这些年是怎么变化的？

Like, how had your relationship changed over the years?

现在罗伯在北卡罗来纳州做博士后研究。

At this point, Rob is doing a postdoc fellowship in North Carolina.

所以显然比波士顿还要远。

So even further away than Boston, obviously.

我和罗布主要靠一个群发邮件聊天，这个群聊已经持续了快二十年了。

I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that we've had going now for like almost twenty years.

所以我和他还有其他朋友通过这个群聊联系，这些年给他打电话的次数越来越少了。

And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this group chat, calling him less and less and less over the years.

这个邮件列表里有一小部分人，我们喜欢叫它‘小圈子’。

A subset of this email list there are, like, kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list.

有个健身小圈子，就是那些喜欢……他们有自己的小

There's the fitness caucus, the guys who, like, have a they're, like, little side

群聊。

group chat.

对。

Totally.

还有一个骑行旅行小组。

And there there was a bike trip group.

其实我是这个小组的发起人之一。

I actually was one of the people that initiated this group.

我当时说，咱们每年搞一次骑行吧。

And I said, let's do a bike trip once a year.

那个骑行活动持续了很多年，但我后来就不去了。

And and that bike trip continued for many, many years, but I stopped going on it.

我有了孩子，就找各种借口说自己太忙了。

I had kids, and I made all the excuses why I was too busy.

等孩子大一点，生活稍微稳定下来后，我告诉自己，今年一定要去参加骑行。

And once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I told myself, I'm really gonna go on the bike trip this year.

我还会跟骑行小组的人说，今年我一定来。

And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year.

今年我一定来。

I'm coming this year.

结果每次到最后关头我都放鸽子，说，对不起各位，我去不了了。

And then I would, like, flake out at the last second and be like, I can't sorry, guys.

我去不了。

I can't do it.

然后到了2021年，我心想，今年我肯定要去。

And then, like, in 2021, I was like, I'm definitely going this year.

你知道吗？

You know what?

到这个时候，我真的把朋友关系搁置得太久了，已经过分到不行了。

I have really, at this point, sidelined my friendships to a degree that is just way it's gone way too far.

你甚至能感觉到。

You could even recognize.

对。

Yeah.

所以那年圣诞假期，我在波士顿的一家酒吧里，和那群一起去骑行的伙伴们碰了面。

So it was Christmas break, and I met up with basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at at a bar in Boston.

这些人里，很多都是过去十年每年都去骑行的老成员。

And a lot of these guys were guys who had gone had gone every year for the past decade.

而且我大概有八年没参加过了。

And I hadn't been on one for, like, eight years.

我基本上一直在主动提起自行车旅行的事，因为我很想表明我今年会去。

And I basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip proactively because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm I'm coming this year.

对。

Right.

我知道我以前总是放鸽子，但我今年真的会去。

I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year.

然后Rob基本上就说，是啊。

And Rob basically was like, yeah.

随便吧。

Whatever.

你不会来的。

You're not coming.

就像，你总是说你会来，但从来都没来过。

Like like, you always say you're gonna come, and you never come.

然后事情就发展下去了，他提到了一个特别过分的例子，就是我那次放鸽子的事。

And one thing led to another, and he brought up a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out.

就是那次旅行。

On this trip.

就是那次骑行旅行。

On the bike trip.

但罗布提起了这件事。

But Rob brought this up.

他就说，你知道吗，老实说，你从来没真正承认过那件事做得有多不地道。

And he was just like, you know, like like, you never fully accounted for what a dick move that was, frankly.

然后我就开始防备起来了。

And then I started getting defensive.

我就说，你干嘛要提快十年前的那些破事？

I'm like, why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago?

你看，我现在都四十多岁了。

Like, you know, I'm in my forties now.

就是说，对，确实是这样。

Like, you know, like, yes.

当时是有点不地道。

It was kind of a dick.

那绝对是个很过分的行为。

It was definitely a dick move.

咱们就聊聊这次骑行旅行的具体安排吧。

Let's just talk about the logistics of this biking trip.

行不行？

Can we, please?

能不能就说说这次旅行的事？

Can we just talk about this trip?

后来，一来二去，话就越说越冲了。

And eventually, one thing led to another, and the words got more and more heated.

我并不是一个暴力的人。

And I am not a violent person.

事实上，我这辈子从来没打过架。

In fact, I've I've actually never been in a fight in my entire life.

我不知道是不是因为听了太多乔·罗根的东西还是什么。

And I don't know if it was listening to too much of the Joe Rogan stuff or whatever.

但有一次我直接对他说，他当时靠我脸特别近。

But I just said to him at one point, I said, he was getting really close to my face.

我说，你要是再不从我脸前滚开，我就把你满嘴牙全打掉。

And I said, If you don't get the fuck out of my face, I'm gonna knock every fucking one of your teeth out.

哇。

Woah.

我是认真的。

And I meant it.

我当时气疯了。

I was so mad.

我这辈子从来没说过那种话。

And I've never said anything like that in my entire life.

而这是我对我最亲爱的、最老的朋友之一说的话。

And this was something I was saying to my dear beloved one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends.

但在真正动手之前，被其他人拉开了。

And it got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows.

我们就各走各的了。

We went our separate ways.

而且，我当时真的气坏了。

And, like, I was I was really pissed.

我能问你个问题吗？

And Can ask you?

可以。

Yeah.

当你离开酒吧的时候，你确实很生气。

When you were, like, leaving the bar, you were angry, sure.

你当时感到尴尬吗？

Were you embarrassed?

你当时难过吗？

Were you sad?

就是，你脑子里当时是什么情绪？

Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after?

说实话，刚发生那会儿，我对他只有愤怒。

I mean, the the the the emotions immediately after were just anger at him.

对。

Mhmm.

因为愤怒更容易，是的。

Because it was easier to feel angry Yeah.

比感受其他情绪容易。

Than to feel emotions.

对。

Yeah.

我更容易觉得，都是他的错。

It was easier for me to just be like, it's all his fault.

就好像，是他先找我吵架的，根本就不是我的错。

Like, he he picked a fight with me from can't no

总是这样。

always go.

对。

Yeah.

他翻出十年前的那些破事来说。

He's bringing up some shit from a decade ago.

你说，这人到底怎么回事？

You know, what's wrong with this guy?

是啊。

Yeah.

说实话，有那么一刻我就在想，你知道吗？

I mean, truth truth be told, like, there was a point at which I was like, you know what?

去他的吧。

Fuck it.

我觉得我不用再跟这家伙做朋友了。

I I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore.

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

现在回想起来，我都不敢相信当时会有那种想法。

Like, which is looking back at him, like, I I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind.

但说实话，对我来说，直接放手、不再做朋友，反而比跟他开诚布公地谈那次冲突里的感受要容易得多。

But it was like, it was actually easier for me to just just move on and not be friends than to, like, have a heart to heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.

我理解。

I understand that.

是的。

And yeah.

也就是从那时起，我开始反思自己已经八年没出去旅行过这件事。

And and that's when I started reflecting on, like, the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years.

我开始越来越意识到自己有多不重视友谊，结果这么多年下来，我已经习惯了独处，甚至一想到要重新维系友谊就感到害怕。

And I started just thinking more and more about how much I had deprioritized friendship, and then how much I had as a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone and almost being intimidated by the idea of trying to rekindle my friendships.

所以我觉得那次争吵才是真正的导火索，让我意识到，我已经把所有其他被认为对心理健康有益的事情都放在了优先位置。

And so I would say that fight was the real precipitating moment where I was like, I have made every other thing that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority.

就是，所有该做的我都做了。

Like, I've done all of the things.

我已经不喝酒了。

I I don't drink alcohol anymore.

我坚持锻炼。

I exercise.

我冥想。

I meditate.

我也在接受心理治疗。

I was in therapy.

你明白吗？

I you know?

然而，我却没有做那件最重要、排名第一的事，也就是和真实的朋友线下见面，把友谊放在优先位置。

And yet, I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person and prioritize friendship.

我觉得那就是我的转折点，我当时就想，我必须得试着去改变这种状况。

And that I think that was, like, the tipping point for me where I was just like, I I have to try to try to change it.

稍后回来，Sam将采取行动重新与朋友们建立联系。

When we come back, Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends.

接下来请看。

That's next.

纽约时报的App解锁了？

The New York Times app unlocked?

大家都知道《纽约时报》是要付费才能看的。

Everyone knows The Times is behind a paywall.

只有订阅用户才能访问所有的报道内容。

Only subscribers have access to all the reporting.

但如果你能免费试用一个月，而且不用填信用卡信息，那会怎样呢？

But what if you could explore The Times for a month for free without putting in a credit card?

现在可以了。

Now you can.

当你第一次下载《纽约时报》应用时，第一个月是免费的。

When you download The New York Times app for the first time, your first month in the app is free.

这一个月里，你可以绕过付费墙，看看《纽约时报》订阅用户每天都能看到什么。

A month to go behind the paywall to see what Times subscribers get every single day.

所有的调查报道、评论、食谱、以及那些深度报道、基于事实的新闻。

All the investigations, the reviews, the recipes, the deeply reported fact based journalism.

如果你还没有订阅《纽约时报》，今天就下载应用，免费体验三十天。

If you don't already subscribe to The New York Times, download the Times app today and get free access for thirty days.

所以，你有了这样一个时刻。

So you have this moment.

你经历了这场争吵。

You have this fight.

听起来这让你彻底想明白了。

And it sounds extremely it sounds clarifying for you.

比如，我需要做出改变。

Like, I need to make a change.

可能我早就该改变了，但这次我要勇敢一点，试着去做出这个改变。

And I've maybe needed to make one for a while, but I'm I'm gonna be brave and and try to make this change.

那具体是什么样的呢？

What did that look like?

你是怎样开始重新调整优先级，把友谊放回生活中心的？

Like, how did you try to start to reprioritize and recenter friendship in your life?

还有，你后来去骑自行车旅行了吗？

And, also, did you go on the bike trip?

那年的自行车旅行最后没去成。

The the the bike trip that year ended up not happening.

好吧。

Okay.

我觉得，部分原因就是那次在酒吧的不愉快经历。

And I think I think in part because of that that ugly experience at the bar.