为什么男人之间难以说出"我爱你"？| 与Ncuti Gatwa对谈

《现代爱情》播客由以下品牌赞助播出

Modern Love, the podcast, is supported by

Audible的浪漫系列作品能满足您的各种心境——无论您渴望甜蜜、搞笑、奇幻还是激情四射的故事。聆听莉莉·楚和阿里·哈泽尔伍德等畅销作家的现代浪漫喜剧，沉浸于莎拉·J·玛斯和丽贝卡·亚罗斯打造的浪漫奇幻世界，或穿越时空体验《布里奇顿》《外乡人》等摄政时代经典。更有令人欲罢不能的深情大胆之作等您探索。

Audible's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you, whether you're in the mood for sweet, funny, magical, or seriously steamy. Listen to modern rom coms from best selling authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazel wood. Fall into romantasy worlds from Sarah J Maas and Rebecca Yaros. Or time travel through Regency hits like Bridgerton and Outlander. Plus explore all the deeply passionate and daring titles you won't wanna put down.

登录audible.com/modernlove即可开启30天免费试用，邂逅您的第一段精彩爱情故事。Wayfair热爱秋季——清爽的空气、凉爽的夜晚，当然还有应季拿铁。作为您信赖的家居全品类平台，Wayfair提供从舒适躺椅、温暖床品到秋季装饰的一切家居焕新好物，甚至备有意式咖啡机让您在家轻松制作拿铁。

Start your first great love story free at audible.com/modernlove with a thirty day trial. Wayfair loves fall. The crisp air, the cool nights, and of course, the seasonal lattes. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home.

您懂的。立即访问wayfair.com选购精心策划的秋季焕新系列，轻松实惠尽在wayfair.com。Wayfair，万千风格，点亮每家。本节目由WBUR波士顿电台Eye Lab制作。

You know the one. Head to wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Produced by the Eye Lab at WBUR Boston.

这里是《纽约时报》与WBUR波士顿电台联合推出的《现代爱情》，讲述关于爱、失去与救赎的故事。我是主持人玛格娜·查克拉巴蒂。您会对朋友说'我爱你'吗？会直接用这三个字表达吗？

From the New York Times and WBUR Boston, this is Modern Love. Stories of love, loss, and redemption. I'm your host, Magna Chakrabarty. Do you tell your friends you love them? And do you say it like that using those three words?

这对您而言是轻松自然还是难以启齿？里卡多·哈拉米霍在本周文章中探讨了这些问题，由参演Netflix《性教育》的舒蒂加特瓦为您朗读。

Is it easy for you to say? Is it fraught? Ricardo Jaramicho takes on those questions in this week's essay. It's read by Shutigatwa. He stars in Sex Education on Netflix.

我正陷入'爱'字的困扰，但这困扰与恋人无关。这里没有风花雪月，没有鲜花蜡烛与共舞。我的'爱'字困扰源于我的男孩、我最好的朋友基奇。我大概对他说过五六次'我爱你'，但他从未回应过。

I'm having l word troubles, but my troubles don't involve a lover. There's no romance or sex in this. No flowers, candles, or dancing. My L word troubles are with my boy, my best friend, Kitchy. I've told him I love him probably five or six times now, but he never says it back.

当人们说'我爱你'时，尤其是第一次说出口时，他们可能表达着多重含义。也许是'你爱我吗？'——这个问题被偷偷藏在告白里；或者更迫切地，'请爱我吧'。但对基奇来说，情况并非如此。我知道他爱我。

When people say I love you, especially for the first time, there are a number of things they may be saying. Maybe it's, do you love me? The question smuggled inside the confession, or more urgently, please love me. With Keetchie, it's not like that. I know he loves me.

我时时刻刻都能感受到。我不需要乞求他的爱，也不需要猜疑。我告诉他我爱他，原因很简单：再没有比这更真实的事了。

I feel it all the time. I don't need to ask for his love. I don't need to wonder. I tell him I love him for a simple reason. Nothing could be more true.

但他从不回应这句话。大多时候我都是在分别时说的，有几次在电话里，一次是我喝醉时，另一次是他受伤我试图安慰他时。每次都会沉默片刻，然后他说些'嗯兄弟，回头见'之类的话。我不需要他对我重复那些字眼，但我忍不住想，是什么阻止他说出口。

But he doesn't say it back. Mostly I've said it when we're leaving each other, a couple of times over the phone, once when I was drunk, another time when he was hurt and I was trying to be supportive. There's always silence for a moment, and then he says something like, Yeah bro, I'll catch you soon. I don't need him to say those exact words to me. I wonder, though, about what keeps him from saying them.

是什么让几乎所有年轻男性都无法对男性朋友说出'我爱你'？八岁那年，我交了第一个最好的朋友。佩德罗瘦得像树枝，头发乱糟糟，总是坐立不安，带着只有孩子才有的那种未经驯化的温柔。当我搬到费城时，他张开双臂接纳了作为转校生忐忑不安的我。周末我们总和他母亲一起在他们家附近的森林小径散步。

What keeps nearly all young men from being able to tell their male friends that they love them? When I was eight, I made my first best friend. Pedro was twig thin, messy haired and jittery, brimming with the kind of untamed tenderness found only in children. When I moved to Philadelphia, he took me, a nervous new boy at school, in his arms and under his wings. Pedro and I spent our weekends on walks with his mother through the forest trails near their house.

我们慢慢走着，牵着手，手指渐渐交缠。直到今天，每当我参与牵手这个神圣的人类仪式时，都会想起佩德罗。某次散步时，佩德罗的邻居男孩突然劈开我们牵着的手，吓了我们一跳。'你们俩牵手，'他说，'真恶心'（当时用语暗示同性恋）。

He and I walked slowly, holding hands while we stepped into locking our fingers. To this day, whenever I participate in the sacred human practice of handholding, I think of Pedro. On one of our walks, Pedro and I were interrupted by another boy, Pedro's neighbour who chopped his hands between ours, startling us. You two hold hands, he said. That's gay.

我记得当时并不完全明白那个词的意思，但从其他男孩使用这个词的方式中，能感觉到这是种不被接纳的身份。我有种可怕的感觉：外部世界侵入了我们宁静的绿色天地。从此我们再没牵过手。我们依然关心彼此，但那天我们学会了这种关怀需要被规范、压制、扼住咽喉永不释放。这个教训来自同龄的另一个男孩——而他很可能也是从其他无论什么年纪的男孩那里学来的。

I remember not knowing exactly what gay meant, but sensing in the way other boys wielded the word that it meant something you didn't want to be. I had a terrible feeling that the outside world had broken into our quiet, green place. Pedro and I never held hands again. He and I still cared for each other, but that day we learned our care was something we needed to regulate, subdue, place in a chokehold and never let loose. We learned this at the hands of another boy our age, who probably had learned it at the hands of another boy of whatever age.

我和佩德罗学到的，正是美国男性反复学习的课题：温柔必须根据一套我们必须熟练掌握的准则被驯化，仿佛生存就依赖于此。这个教训经年累月地传承，如同最成功的教化，它会深深嵌入骨血，直到你再也分不清是教训的终结还是自我的开始。每个男人内心都藏着一份名单，记录着所有他爱过却始终未能诉诸言语的男性。我在大一学年中途遇见基奇，那时我又成了忐忑的新生，正在筹办派对。我一生都伴随着各种轮番出现的焦虑小动作。

Pedro and I learned what men in America have learned repeatedly that tenderness must be tamed in accordance with a set of codes we must become fluent in, as if our survival depends on it. This lesson is learned over many years, passed between generations, and like the best taught lessons, it claws into you until you can hardly distinguish where the lesson ends and you begin. Somewhere inside each man is a list of all the other men he's loved without ever finding the words to tell them so. I met Kitchi in the middle of my freshman year, when I was once again a nervous new kid, this time throwing a party. I've gone through life with a rotating set of anxious tics.

那一年，我迷上了把大学挂绳上的钥匙绕在手指上转圈，缠了又解。当人们开始涌入我的宿舍房间时，我紧张地转着钥匙，直到听到一声脆响，才发现钥匙砸中了一个陌生人的iPhone屏幕，留下了一道轻微的划痕。那个陌生人就是Kitchy。我发给他的第一条信息是第二天早上发出的道歉。他很友善，原谅了我。

That year, I'd become fond of swinging my university lanyard with my key in circles, wrapping and unwrapping it around my finger. When people started flowing into my dorm room, I began my nervous swinging, not noticing what I was doing until I heard a crack and saw that my key had struck a stranger's iPhone screen, leaving a minor scratch. That stranger was Kitchy. My first message to him was an apology sent the next morning. He was kind and forgiving.

我们约好一起玩。大一是个容易与人亲近的时期。我开始越来越多地和Keetchie待在一起，几乎每天，然后一天好几次。到了大二选宿舍的时候，我们决定成为室友。我们迅速融入了彼此的生活，因为在一个新地方，我们都渴望亲密关系。

We agreed to hang out. Freshman year is an easy time to attach to people. I started hanging out with Keetchie more and more, almost every day, then several times a day. When it was time to choose housing for sophomore year, we decided to room together. We fell into each other's lives quickly because we were both hungry for closeness in a new place.

我们一直留在彼此的生活中，因为没有什么比这感觉更自然了。Keechee和我都是混血儿，母亲是白人，父亲是移民，名字都很难念。我们来自各自引以为豪的城市，他来自西雅图，我来自费城。但最主要的是，我们很不同。他冷静、酷，玩滑板，衣服叠得整整齐齐，写诗，并且热爱免疫学。

We stayed in each other's lives because nothing has ever felt more natural. Keechee and I are both mixed race, with white mothers, immigrant fathers, and hard to pronounce names. We are from cities, him Seattle, me Philadelphia, that we take pride in. But mostly, we are different. He's calm, cool, rides a skateboard, keeps his clothes neatly folded, writes poems and loves immunology.

他难过时，不会持续太久。我钦佩Keechee那种安静的深思熟虑，以及他给生活带来的平衡。当我带着女朋友的问题、写作的问题或任何其他问题去找他时，他说的或注意到的一些小事总会在我脑海里萦绕好几天。我欣赏他的沉稳，而他欣赏我的情感丰富，欣赏我很少平衡或镇定，欣赏我的混乱和笨拙。随着我们成为更亲密的朋友，我开始带走他的一些特质，他也开始带走我的一些特质。

When he's sad, he doesn't stay sad for long. I admire how quietly deliberate Keechee is and the balance he brings to his life. When I go to him with girlfriend problems, writing problems or any other kind of problems, some little thing he says or notices always stays with me for days. I appreciate his steadiness, and he appreciates how emotional I am, how I'm rarely balanced or collected at all, how I'm messy and clumsy. As we became closer friends, I started taking some of him with me, and he started taking some of me with him.

他欣赏我的混乱，这也许就是我知道他爱我的方式。不然还有什么可爱呢？男人在爱中遵循的规则很复杂。例如，虽然直接说“我爱你”不被看好，但有时对另一个男人说“满满的爱”或“我对你有爱”是可以的。甚至说“我爱你”也可能被接受，只要后面迅速跟上“兄弟”或“哥们”。

He appreciates the mess of me, which is maybe how I know that he loves me. What else is there to love anyway? The codes men follow in love are tricky. For example, while seeing a straight I love you is frowned upon, sometimes saying to another man, much love or I got love for you is okay. I love you might even be possible if it is quickly followed by bro or man.

这些是男子气概要求我们进行的语言体操，是我们通过语言进行的谈判，以保持在可接受的男性气概界限内。规则应该加一个脚注：有时最不方便或最糟糕的情况可以成为一个表达爱的可接受契机，但仅限于那一刻，之后绝不再提。两年前，Keetchie和我从大学休学一学期，在那段时间去了我父亲所在的哥伦比亚。一天，在沿海小镇Kapugana，我突然发烧头晕得厉害，在沙滩上走着走着就跪倒在地。

These are the linguistic gymnastics masculinity asks us to perform, the negotiations we make through language to keep within the acceptable bounds of manhood. A footnote should be added to the code. Sometimes the most inconvenient or terrible circumstances can occasion an acceptable expression of love, but only at that moment, never to be spoken of again. Two years ago, Keetchie and I took semesters off from college and spent that time in Colombia, where my father's from. One day, while in the coastal town of Kapugana, I got so suddenly sick with fever and dizziness that I dropped to my knees while walking on a beach.

在一个我知道可能很难找到帮助的地方莫名其妙地生病，我很害怕。Kichi跑遍全镇找医生。当他找不到时，他决定用他的医学预科课程知识来应付，于是他照顾我。他把手放在我的额头上。他在我耳边低语。

I was scared to be mysteriously ill in a place where I knew it could be hard to find help. Kichi searched all over town for a doctor. When he couldn't find one, he decided his pre med coursework would have to do, and he tended to me. He put his hand on my forehead. He whispered into my ear.

他一遍又一遍地告诉我我会没事的，直到我真的没事了。这或许是我们最亲密的时刻，由我的疾病促成，在其他任何时刻都是不可想象的。这就是那个密码，既复杂又影响深远。Keechi和我并不具备典型大学男生的那种阳刚特质。我们既没有加入兄弟会，也没有参加运动队。

He told me over and over that I was going to be okay, until I was. This was perhaps our most intimate moment, brought about by my sickness and unthinkable at any other time. This is the code, as intricate as it is far reaching. Keechi and I do not possess the flagship qualities of masculine college boys. We aren't in fraternities or on sports teams.

我们甚至不止一次讨论过男性气概以及它要求我们做的那些不合逻辑的事情。但尽管如此，我们一直生活在这个世界里。我们在美国作为男孩长大。我们学会了这个密码，并且实践着它。没有人能免疫。

We have even talked more than once about masculinity and the illogical things it requires of us. But still, we have lived in this world. We grew up as boys in America. We learned this code and we practise it. There's no immunity.

这个故事还有一个部分我尚未承认。每次我说‘我爱你，Takichi’时，都感觉不自在。我甚至在自己内心都能感受到这种怪异。这个教训埋藏得如此之深。我会犹豫、退缩，但在我的意识里，我知道这是我想说的话，所以我努力说出来。

There's a part of this story I haven't admitted yet. Each time I say, I love you, Takichi, it feels uncomfortable. I feel the weirdness of it even in myself. The lesson is burrowed in that deep. I hesitate, flinch, but in my conscious mind, I know it's what I want to say, so I try to say it.

我想对Keechi说‘我爱你’，并且仅仅就是这个意思。我不希望我的话语中潜藏任何欲望、质疑或期待。我想要以一种超越需要肯定、需要回报的方式去爱。这就是我所认识到的最纯粹的爱——不期待任何回报。我仍然抱有希望。

I want to say, I love you, to Keechi, and mean just that. I don't want there to be any desire or questioning or expectation lurking inside my words. I want to love in a way that surpasses the need for affirmation, for return. This is what I have come to know as the purest kind of love expecting nothing back. I remain hopeful.

并不是我需要听到那些话。我只是准备好摆脱所有阻止我们说出口的力量、声音和姿态。尽管如此，我还是忍不住希望有一天Kichi能摒弃所有男性气概的喧嚣，看着我的眼睛，简单地说一句：‘我也爱你。’

It's not that I need to hear those words. I'm just ready to be free from all the forces, voices and gestures that keep us from saying them. Still, I can't help but wish that one day Kichi will forgo all the masculine clatter, look me in the eyes, and simply say, I love you too.

那是Shuti Gatwa，朗读Ricardo Haramicho的文章《为什么男人不能对彼此说“我爱你”？》。休息之后我们将与Ricardo连线。

That's Shuti Gatwa, reading Ricardo Haramicho's essay Why Can't Men Say I Love You to Each Other? We'll catch up with Ricardo after the break.

嗨，我是Ashley。我和男朋友住在旧金山。我们很想正式共享我的《纽约时报》订阅，并拥有单独的登录账号。我们都热爱烹饪，喜欢待在厨房，但我是一个追求30分钟以内高效晚餐的女孩。

Hi. This is Ashley. I live in San Francisco with my boyfriend. We would love to officially share my New York Times subscription with separate logins. We both love cooking, love being in the kitchen, but I'm a thirty minute and under efficient dinner girly.

我想要一个烤盘餐。他非常讲究细节。他想要融入故事叙述。我希望能够保存我的简易餐谱并勾选已完成的项目，而且我认为他拥有自己的个人资料会非常好。

I want a sheet pan meal. He is very elaborate. He wants to get into the storytelling. I wanna be able to save my easy meals and check off the ones that I've completed, and I think him having his own profile would be great.

Ashley，我们听到了。隆重推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅服务。您拥有自己的登录账号，讲究先生也有他的，另外还可供其他两人使用。了解更多详情，请访问nytimes.com/family。

Ashley, we heard you. Introducing The New York Times Family Subscription. You get your own login, and Mr. Elaborate gets his, plus room for two others. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

Ricardo Jaramicho的散文是2019年现代爱情大学散文竞赛的决赛作品。我们在五月份采访了他，他告诉我们，在他的散文发表后，他收到了很多信息，人们告诉他他们爱他。其中一些信息来自朋友，还有一些来自他曾一起上过一堂课的人。至于Keechi是否说过那句话？

Ricardo Jaramicho's essay was a finalist in the two thousand nineteen modern love college essay contest. We talked to him in May, and he told us that after his essay was published, he got a lot of messages from people telling him they loved him. Some of those messages were from friends, and some were from people he'd had a class with once. As for whether Keechi said it?

那是他文章中的百万美元问题。不过，我不知道。我的意思是，简短的回答是没有。但我不认为这实际上对我们关系的影响有多大。我想这某种程度上是我不希望人们误解这篇文章的方式。

That's a million dollar question of his article. Though, I don't know. I mean, the short answer is no. But I don't think much actually hinges on him saying that in our relationship. I guess that's sort of how I wouldn't want people to misread the piece.

就像，他只是一个非常爱我、并且完全塑造了我生活的人。而且，我希望这在文章中表达得很清楚。也许有一天，我会打开门，他会带着某种《真爱至上》式的海报板情景站在那里。你知道，如果他明天需要我，即使我的驾照过期了而且还有疫情，我也会开车去西雅图。就像，你知道，无论他需要什么，我都会去做。

Like, he's just someone that has loved me really well and, like, completely shaped my life. And, like, I hope that's made clear in the writing. And maybe one day, I would just open the door, and he will be there with some sort of Love Actually type poster board situation. You know, if he needed me tomorrow, like, I would drive to Seattle even though my license is expired and there's a pandemic. Like, you know, like, whatever he needed, like, I would do it.

而且，我知道如果我打电话给他，他需要我，他的驾照可能没有过期。但是，他可能会来。我不想替他做任何承诺，但我想他会的。

And, like, I know that if I called him and he needed me, like, his license is probably not expired. But, like, he would probably come. I don't wanna make any promises for him, but I imagine he would.

Ricardo说，语言在很多方面让男性感到不足，不仅仅是在'我爱你'这句话上。

Ricardo says that language fails men in a lot of ways, not just around the phrase, I love you.

有一位诗人，Ocean Vaughn，他对此的谈论非常优美，他说，男孩们用来谈论胜利的语言很大程度上与暴力相关。比如，你干掉了它。你把他们打得落花流水，诸如此类。所以我认为我们语言中内置了这些界限，比如，只能走到这里。而这些界限与我们的爱可能要求我们去的地方之间，存在着某种自然的碰撞。

There's a poet, Ocean Vaughn, that talks, like, so beautifully about it, where it's like, so much of the language of that boys use to talk about victory is so connected to violence. Like, you killed it. You kicked the shit out of them, all this stuff. So I think sort of cooked into the language that we have are these sort of bounds, like, only go this far. And that's what's there's some sort of natural collision that occurs between those bounds and then where our love might ask us to go.

我生活中的两种语言是英语和西班牙语。在英语中，我们只有一个词表示爱。在西班牙语中，有两个词表示爱。你知道，我希望在两百年后，我们生活的世界能有更多语言可供我们使用。比如，我希望我们能拥有大约30个词来表达爱，因为我认为那将意味着作为一个社会，我们努力更好地理解了它。我觉得在很多方面，这篇文章是关于情感的，以及我们如何用语言来翻译、沟通或赤裸地展现我们的情感。

The two languages in my life are English and Spanish. In English, we have one word for love. In Spanish, there's two words for love, and You know, I hope that in two hundred years, we live in worlds where there's a lot more language available to us. Like, I hope that we have, like, 30 words available to us for love because I think that will mean as a society that we've worked to know it better. I feel like in a lot of ways, the piece is about affection and, like, how we can sort of translate or communicate or lay bare in words our affection.

而我们正处在这样一个令人心碎的时刻。我认为对此唯一的回应之一就是深入人性，参与情感。是的。我认为那在某种程度上能拯救我们。

And we are in, like, just such a heartbreaking moment. And I think that one of the only responses to that is to sort of drop down into the human and, like, and participate in affection. Yeah. I think that's sort of, like, what can save us.

那是Ricardo Jaramicho。他是一位教师、散文家和富布赖特学者。他的最新散文将于本周通过费城公共广播电台WHYY发表。休息后继续。

That's Ricardo Jaramicho. He's a teacher, essayist, and Fulbright scholar. His latest essay will be published this week through WHYY, Philadelphia's public radio station. More after the break.

Wayfair热爱秋天。清新的空气，凉爽的夜晚，当然还有季节性的拿铁咖啡。作为您值得信赖的家居全方位目的地，Wayfair拥有您所需的一切，让您的空间变得舒适温馨，从舒适躺椅到温暖床上用品和秋季装饰。Wayfair甚至还有意式浓缩咖啡机，这样您就可以在家制作那杯拿铁了。您懂得是哪一款。

Wayfair loves fall. The crisp air, the cool nights, and, of course, the seasonal lattes. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers, so you can make that latte at home. You know the one.

今天访问wayfair.com，选购精心策划的简单实惠秋季更新系列。那就是wayfair.com。Wayfair，每一种风格，每一个家。

Head to wayfair.com today to shop curated collections of easy, affordable fall updates. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

纽约时报应用程序包含所有您可能未曾见过的内容。

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

标签位于顶部，包含所有不同的版块。

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

我可以立即导航到与我当前感受相匹配的内容。

I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

我总是直奔游戏版块。

I go to games always.

玩迷你游戏，玩Wordle。

Doing the mini, doing the Wordle.

我喜欢它向我展示的丰富内容，那些我从未想过会通过新闻应用获取的东西。

I loved how much content it exposed me to. Things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.

这个应用是必不可少的。

This app is essential.

纽约时报应用。所有时刻，尽在一处。立即在nytimes.com/app下载。

The New York Times app. All of the times, all in one place. Download it now at nytimes.com/app.

这位是《纽约时报》现代爱情专栏的编辑丹尼尔·琼斯。

Here's Daniel Jones, editor of the Modern Love column for The New York Times.

里卡多的文章是我们最近一次大学征文比赛的投稿，我认为他对有毒男子气概及其因果的探讨非常勇敢。尤其有一句话深深触动了我——他谈到'温柔是必须被驯服的东西'，以及这种观念给家庭、人际关系和世界造成了多大的伤害。这种观念从童年时期通过羞辱开始，渗透进我们的教育体系，并产生终身影响，其形成过程让我感到难以置信。阅读里卡多的文章让人耳目一新，既揭示了问题根源，也展望了解除这种束缚的可能性。

Ricardo's essay came in as part of our last college essay contest, and I thought it was such a brave exploration of toxic masculinity and its causes and effects. And one line in particular really struck me where he talks about tenderness is something that must be tamed and and how much damage that goes on to cause in families and relationships and in the world. It's sort of incredible to me how how that starts, you know, in childhood through shaming and works its way through our education system and has these lifelong implications. So to read Riccardo's essay was just such a refreshing look at where this comes from and how, hopefully, it can be undone.

接下来是舒蒂·盖特瓦讲述他选择朗读这篇文章的原因。

And here's Shuthi Gatwa on why he chose to read this piece.

我想我是被它的真诚所吸引。在社会层面，我们正在重新思考男子气概及其真正含义，而这篇文章恰如其分地凝聚了这类对话。作为男性，从小我就深切意识到这些不成文的准则——我就是在这些准则中长大的。

I think I was just drawn to how honest it was. And, I mean, I think in society, we're having a real rethink about masculinity and what it means. And I think that this this piece kind of encapsulated like that kind of conversation. As a man myself, as a boy, I'm very aware of all these codes. I grew up with them.

确实存在一种需要被打破的、不成文的男子气概准则。我认为我们人类不应该害怕表达对彼此的爱意，不应该克制这种情感——毕竟这个世界拥有的爱越多越好。

There really is like an unwritten code of masculinity that I think needs to be broken. And I think we as humans need to not be afraid to say that we love each other and not hold back from that because I think the more love we can get in this world, the better.

感谢舒蒂在家中完成录制。大家现在可以在Netflix剧集《性爱自修室》中看到他的演出。《现代爱情》由《纽约时报》与波士顿NPR电台WBUR联合制作。制作、导演和剪辑由凯特琳·奥基菲担任，原创配乐和音效设计由马特·里德完成。

Thank you to Shuti for recording himself at home. You can see him now in the Netflix show, Sex Education. Modern Love is a production of The New York Times and WBUR, Boston's NPR station. It's produced, directed, and edited by Caitlin O'Keefe. Original scoring and sound designed by Matt Reed.

艾里斯·阿德勒担任执行制片人，凯瑟琳·布鲁尔负责剪辑指导。丹尼尔·琼斯是《纽约时报》现代爱情专栏编辑兼节目顾问。特别感谢《纽约时报》的朱莉娅·西蒙、安雅·斯特雷米安和李米娅，以及WBUR的迈克尔·加思。《现代爱情》播客的构想由丽莎·托宾提出。

Iris Adler is our executive producer. We are edited by Catherine Brewer. Daniel Jones is the editor of Modern Love for The New York Times and adviser to the show. Special thanks to Julia Simon, Anya Stremian, and Mia Lee at The New York Times, and to Michael Garth at WBUR. The idea for the Modern Love podcast was conceived by Lisa Tobin.

额外音乐由APM提供。我是Magna Chakrabarty。下周见。

Additional music courtesy of APM. I'm Magna Chakrabarty. See you next week.