为何我一直梦想成为姐妹妻子

这是你的头条，等你拆解。

It's your headline to unpack.

这是你唯一要逐周追踪的故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是你要通关的Wordle。

It's your Wordle to work through.

这是你要关注的球队。

It's your team to track.

这是你要探索的三十六小时。

It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是你要掌握的腌料配方。

It's your marinade to master.

这是你要弄清楚的立场。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是你该升级的床垫。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

这是你的日子，去了解你还需要什么去圣母大学。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame.

《纽约时报》。这是你的世界，等你理解。更多信息请见nytimes.com/yourworld。

The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

爱现在，也爱明天。坠入

Love now and tomorrow. Fall in

昨夜的爱。比你所爱的一切都更强烈。为了爱，爱。

love last night. Is stronger than anything you love. For the love Love.

我爱你胜过一切。

I love you more than anything.

爱。生命仍在。爱。

Love. There's still life. Love.

我是《纽约时报》的安娜·马丁。这里是《现代爱情》。今天，我邀请到了克里斯汀·伍利。你可能在TLC真人秀《姐妹妻子》中见过她。她成长于一个原教旨摩门教社区，是一夫多妻婚姻中的四位妻子之一。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. Today, I'm talking to Christine Woolley. You might know her from the TLC reality show sister wives. She grew up as part of a fundamentalist Mormon community and was one of four women in a plural marriage.

克里斯汀现在出版了一本新回忆录，讲述她的成长经历、她对一夫多妻制的喜爱，以及最终为何离开丈夫科迪和教会。以下是我们的对话。克里斯汀·伍利，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

Christine has a new memoir out now all about how she grew up, what she loved about polygamy, but why ultimately she left her husband, Cody, and the church. Here's our conversation. Christine Woolley, welcome to Modern Love.

谢谢。我很高兴来到这里。我是你们的忠实粉丝。

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm a big fan.

谢谢你这么说。我们也很高兴邀请到你。克里斯汀，你今天来是为了谈谈你的新回忆录。我在飞往加州的航班上从头到尾读完了这本书。我简直爱不释手。

Thank you for saying that. We're excited to have you. So, Christine, you are here today to talk about your new memoir. I read this book on a plane ride to California front to back. I could not put it down.

我被深深吸引，不仅因为你的经历，还因为你愿意如此坦诚、反思和脆弱。我想从这里开始。对吧？你的新书叫《姐妹妻子》。节目也叫《姐妹妻子》。

I was so drawn in not just by your experiences, but by how open and reflective and vulnerable you were willing to be. And I wanna start here. Right? Like, your new book is called Sister Wife. The show is called Sister Wives.

但严格来说，你已经不再处于一夫多妻婚姻中了。那么你还会把自己看作姐妹妻子吗？

But you technically aren't in a plural marriage anymore. So do you still think of yourself as a sister wife?

不，我离开了科迪，但我觉得那是我做姐妹妻时的故事。说实话，那是我最喜欢的头衔，那就是我。整个故事讲的就是我曾经是谁。

No. I left Cody, but I feel like it is a story of me when I was a sister wife. And honestly, when that was my favorite title. It's who I was. And the story is all about who I was.

但像珍妮尔和我仍然认为彼此是姐妹妻。你知道吗？很多人告诉我们，节目播出后，他们的朋友之间也开始互称姐妹妻。

But like, Janelle and I still consider ourselves sister wives. And you know what's cute? A lot of people tell us that once the show came out, their friends and them would start calling each other like sister wife as well.

不会吧。

No way.

这是最酷的夸奖。

It was the coolest compliment.

你说你现在不是姐妹妻了，这说得通。你不再和科迪结婚，也不再是一夫多妻制。但我想知道，姐妹妻现在对你来说意义不同了吗？你不再认同这个身份，但它现在的意义和你说它是你最喜欢的头衔时有什么不同吗？

You're saying you're not a sister wife. This makes sense. You're no longer married to Cody, no longer in a plural marriage. But I guess I wonder, like, does sister wife mean something different to you now? You don't claim that identity, but does it mean something different to you now than when you said it was your your favorite title?

是的。我离开的时候跟珍妮尔抱怨，说我讨厌一夫多妻，讨厌做姐妹妻，等等等等。她说，等等，你今天的样子就是因为你经历了一夫多妻，做姐妹妻是你做过的事，而且你曾经热爱它。

Yeah. So when I was leaving, I was complaining to Janelle, and I'm like, I hated polygamy and I hated being a sister wife, blah blah blah. She's like, woah. Woah. Who you are today is because you live polygamy, and being a sister wife was what you did, and you loved it.

我确实热爱过。我热爱其中的很多部分。我热爱成为家庭的一员，热爱能嫁给自己选择的人，热爱整个家庭体验。

And I did love it. I loved so many parts of it. I love being part of the family. I love that I got to marry who I chose. I love the whole family experience.

有那么多我热爱的东西，但最重要的是，我热爱那时的自己。我热爱当时的我，但现在我更爱自己。我们说的是我人生里的二十六年。哇，我曾是姐妹妻。

There were so many things that I loved, but more important than anything, I loved me. I loved myself back then, but I love myself even more now. And we're talking twenty six years of my life. Wow. I was a sister wife.

所以那是我人生一半的时间，我就是那个人，我因此变得坚强、独立。我还在那个头衔下学会了爱自己。所以没关系，因为它致敬的是我与自己的过去关系，这就够了。

So that's half my life where that was who I was, and I became strong as that person. I became independent. And I learned how to love myself when I still had that title. So it's okay because it gives honor to a past relationship of with myself. So it's alright.

这真有意思。你说它致敬的是一段过去的关系，我还以为你会说致敬科迪、致敬珍妮尔——你提到过一个姐妹妻——但其实你说的是致敬你与过去自己的关系。

That's really interesting. When you said it gives honor to a past relationship, I thought you were gonna say to to Cody, to Janelle, you mentioned one of your sister wives, but but to to but really what you're saying is it honors the relationship with yourself.

嗯。这些年我做出的所有改变，比如我曾经是谁，以及我如何总是——没关系，我会为其他人做任何事——到后来明白，其实，拥有发言权也没问题。

Mhmm. And all the changes that I've made through the years, like who I was and how I would just it's okay. I'll do whatever the heck for everybody else to learning that actually, it's also okay to have a voice.

那我们回到最初吧。你从小就想成为姐妹妻吗？

Let's go back to the beginning as it were. Did you always want to be a sister wife growing up?

是的，百分之百。我一直想成为姐妹妻。我是在一种文化里长大的，是原教旨主义的摩门文化。

Yes. 100%. I always wanted to be a sister wife. So I'm raised in a culture. It's the fundamentalist Mormon culture.

在这种文化里，你被教导相信，成为姐妹妻、拥有一个多元家庭，是让自己变得更好的最佳方式，可以包容我们所有这些人性的缺点，并真正从中学习。所以真正学会如何处理嫉妒，真正学会如何停止比较，真正学会如何独立。我非常喜欢这一点。而且我看到了我的奶奶们，她们是我认识的最坚强的女性，她们就是姐妹妻。

And in it, you're raised to believe that being a sister wife and having like a plural family really was the best way to just become a better person, to embrace all of these human faults that we have and really learn from them. So really learn how to handle jealousy, really learn how to handle comparing, really learn how to be independent. And I loved that so much. Then I also saw my grandmas, and they were the strongest women that I knew. They were sister wives.

即使爷爷去世后，她们依旧非常亲密。我喜欢她们之间的关系。我有两个妈妈，我喜欢观察她们、参与她们的生活。所以这真的、真的很棒，我身边的榜样都如此。

And even when my grandpa died, they still were so so close together. And I love their relationship. I had two moms, and I loved watching them and being part of their life. So it was really, really cool. Just all the examples that I had.

而且我还觉得，能够选择我要嫁的人，无论他们是单身还是已婚，会很酷。没错，我一直都想要这样。

And then I also thought it would be really cool to have my choice of whoever I married, whether they be single or married. Yep. I always wanted it.

多元婚姻就是你成长过程中家庭的模式，对吗？你是说，你有多个奶奶，她们都嫁给了你爷爷，然后你在一个有多个妈妈的家庭里长大，对吗？

Plural marriages were the models of family you grew up with. Right? You're saying your your grandmas you had multiple grandmas. They, were married to your grandpa, and then you grew up in a home where you had multiple moms. Right?

你有你的生母——两个妈妈。嗯。你能多说说那是什么感觉吗？比如——嗯，这在你的日常生活中是怎样体现的？

You had your biological moms, two moms. Mhmm. Can you tell me more about what that was like? Like, well yeah. How did that manifest in in your daily life?

这就像——这是我唯一知道的。对吧？我只知道我有两个妈妈。我爸爸在我五岁时娶了我另一位妈妈，那是我最早的记忆之一，我当时就很喜欢她。后来长大些，比如到了青春期，我发现另一位妈妈比我亲妈酷多了。

So it's like it's all I knew. Right? I only knew about having two moms. My dad married my other mom when I was five, and it's one of my first memories, and I just loved her. And then getting older, like when I became a teenager, I found out that my other mom was way more cool than my mom.

所以，这让我有了另一个可以倾诉的人，而且——是的。我们一起读言情小说，一起追剧，她听的音乐也很酷。她人也特别好相处。所以我很喜欢这段关系。直到现在，我依旧很喜欢和我另一位妈妈的关系。

So, you know, it gave me someone else to talk to, and Yeah. We read romance books books together, and we watched shows together, and she had really cool music that she listened to. And she was also great to hang out with too. So I loved the relationship. I still love the relationship that I have with my other mom.

她是我最喜欢的人之一。她是个很棒的人。我非常珍惜我和她的关系。我的奶奶们都特别棒。我所有的姑姑叔叔，姑姑比叔叔多得多，我全都爱。

She's one of my favorite people. She's a wonderful person. And I just love the relationship that I had with her so much. And my grandmas were incredible. And all of my aunts and uncles and a lot more aunts than uncles and everything that I I loved.

我喜欢待在所有这些热闹里。我喜欢那种大家庭的感觉。我喜欢随之而来的混乱。我喜欢永远有人可以一起玩，永远有聚会，我们就这样——我就是喜欢。我感觉我们从一个活动赶到另一个活动，我觉得很刺激。

And I loved being around all of it. I loved the big, huge family thing. I loved all the chaos that went with it. I loved that there was always someone to hang out with, always a party, always we just I just loved it. I felt like we went from event to event to event, and I thought it was exciting.

你亲生妈妈和另一位妈妈——她们相处得怎么样？你当时有感觉到吗？

How did your biological mom and your other mom how did they get along? Did you have a sense of that as a

我以为她们相处得很好，直到我19岁那年妈妈离开。所以我觉得她们关系不错。我记得我观察她们，觉得她们挺合得来。我真的觉得她们关系特别好。当然也会有起起落落，但我从没听到她们吵架。

I thought they got along great until my mom left when I was 19. So I thought that they had a good relationship. I remember watching them, and I thought they got along well. I thought they got along really great. I mean, there were ups and downs, of course, but I didn't ever hear about them.

我没听见她们吵，也没听见她们争论，什么都没有。

I didn't hear them fight, didn't hear them argue, nothing.

你说过你亲生妈妈是你最好的朋友。那她有没有向你倾诉过，她在这个家庭里是什么感受？还是你们其实不太聊这些？

You know, specifically, you described your biological mom as your best friend. Like, would you would she ever open up to you about how it was for her in this in this family, or was that not really something that you guys spoke about?

没有。她是成年人，也是妈妈，所以——她确实不太把很多事情说出来。对，她觉得那不合适。

No. So she was She's an adult, and she's a mom. And so there's a she didn't also really open up a lot about a lot of things. Yeah. She just didn't feel like it was appropriate.

而且我觉得她本来也不太跟别人深聊。所以她走了，我们一度关系很僵。看着妈妈挣扎，真的太难承受了。

And I don't think she really talked that much to other people anyway. So she left, and we just had a rocky relationship for a while. It was just such a hard thing to watch your mom struggle with.

这简直是天翻地裂，对吧？尤其你描述的童年听起来几乎田园诗一般：被那么多孩子、姑姑（你特意说姑姑比叔叔多，我懂）包围。一个妈妈给你音乐推荐，一个妈妈听你心底最深的秘密，然后突然——断裂了，你对家庭、对妈妈、对自己的理解都裂开了。

I mean, what a rupture. Right? Especially because you're describing, honestly, what sounds like a pretty idyllic childhood being surrounded by so many kids and aunts, more so than uncles, which I appreciated you clarifying. That makes sense, you know, in this context. But having a mom that you could go to for music recs and a mom that you could talk to about, you know, the deepest secrets of your heart, and then there's this there's this rupture, right, in your understanding of of your family and your understanding of your mom and your understanding of yourself.

而且发生在你19岁的时候，对吧？

And this happens at age 19. Right?

那是

Is that

你多大年纪？

how old you are?

我当时是，而且那很震惊。那是非常大的震惊，因为我不知道我妈妈不开心。我不知道。

I was, and it was a shock. It was a big shock because I didn't know that my mom wasn't happy. I didn't know.

跟我说说你是怎么发现的。比如，你还记得她告诉你她要……的时候你在哪儿吗？

Tell me about how you found out. Like, do you remember where you were when she told you that she was Yeah.

我坐在餐桌边写大学作业，她坐在厨房里，她说，我要离开你爸。我说，等等，什么？

I was sitting at our table doing homework for college, and she's sitting in the kitchen, and she's like, I'm gonna leave your dad. I'm like, wait, what?

就这么随口一说？就像

Just kinda casually like that? Like

对。对。对。对。然后她说，我已经不开心很久了，教会里有很多事我很难接受。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she goes, I haven't been happy for a long time, and there's a lot of things that I have a hard time with in the church itself.

我说，你让我从小爱《摩门经》，你让我爱约瑟夫·史密斯，你让我爱一夫多妻，你让我爱这一切。你什么意思，你要离开它？

And I'm like, you raised me to love the Book of Mormon. You raised me to love Joseph Smith. You raised me to love plural marriage. You raised me to love it. You know, what do you mean you're leaving it?

她说，我大半辈子都不喜欢它。

And she's like, I haven't liked it for most of my life.

哇。

Wow.

所以我觉得她在骗我，因为她把我养大就是要我爱它。所以我就想，她骗了我。我当时特别生气，有太多东西要消化，真的。

So I felt like she was lying to me because she raised me to love it. So I'm like, she's lied to me. And so I was just so angry and just so much to process and yeah.

你知道，有些时刻就是地震级的，你整个人生都变了。听起来那就是这样一个时刻。

There are, you know, moments where it's just seismic. Like, your whole life changes. And it sounds like that was a moment.

哦，那太震撼了。对你来说也是。是啊。所以它真的让我停下来思考：好吧，仅仅因为我被某种方式养大，并不意味着我必须按那种方式生活。

Oh, it was incredible. Like that for you. Yeah. So it really caused a pause on, okay. So just because I was raised a certain way doesn't mean I have to live a certain way.

我妈妈、我爸爸、我另一个妈妈，他们都这么想：如果你觉得一夫多妻不适合你，你就不必过那种生活。

And my mom and my dad and my other mom, they all felt the same way. Like, if you don't feel like living plural marriage, you don't have to.

哇。

Wow.

他们真的很棒。

This They were great.

这有点像——我想说，你是不是觉得必须选边站？

This was kind of a I was gonna say, like, did you feel like you had to choose a side?

没有我弟弟妹妹那么强烈。他们必须选，因为他们得跟妈住或者跟爸住。我19岁时已经搬出去了，所以我可以两边都顾。我可以去找我妈，虽然我对她离开很生气，因为我觉得她在撒谎。

Not as much as my younger siblings did. They did because they had to live with my mom or they had to go and live with my dad. They had when I was 19, I was out of the house. So I could do both. I could go hang out with my mom, I was angry at her for leaving because I felt like she was lying.

但我仍然知道她是我的妈妈，她依然是我的好朋友、我的倾诉对象。所以，你知道，我虽然跟她有矛盾，但她还是我妈。

But I still knew that she's my mom, and she still was a good friend and a confidant of mine. So, you know, but I was struggling with her, but she's still my mom.

嗯。

Yeah.

然后是我的关系，我会经常和我爸爸以及另一位妈妈在一起，试图弄清楚我想做什么。但那是一个真正审视内心的时期，思考我这一生到底想做什么，我比以往任何时候都更强烈地感受到我仍然想生活在多元婚姻中。我觉得我的见证依旧坚定，我仍然想继续这样的生活。

And then my relationship, I'd go hang out with my dad and my other mom a lot, and just try to figure out what I wanted to do. But it's a time of real soul searching what I really wanted to do with my life, and I felt more than ever that I wanted to live plural marriage still. I felt like my testimony was still so strong, and I just wanted to still live it.

这是我在你书里读到的一个非常有趣的部分：你妈妈告诉你她要离开，然后开始了一段长达数年的、把自己从教会、从信仰中抽离的过程——不一定是离开家庭，但确实是从你们被养育的方式中抽离。我记得在书里读到这段，我想听听你讲讲为什么。就好像你反而更坚定地——对，更朝着多元婚姻的方向摆动。说“是的”，朝着

This is a really interesting part that I remember from your book because your mom tells you she's leaving and begins sort of a years long process of extricating herself from from the church, from the faith, you know, not necessarily from the family, but, you know, certainly from the way you were raised. And I remember reading this in your book, and and and I wanna hear I wanna hear you talk through why. It's like you swung even harder towards Yeah. Towards plural marriage. Saying, yes, towards

我确实如此。

I did.

一夫多妻制成为——对，你的道路。告诉我为什么。这是对你妈妈离开的反应，还是——你帮我梳理一下。我

Polygamy being Yeah. The path for you. Tell me about why. It was a reaction to your mom leaving or you know, talk me through that. I

所以我仍然热爱——我仍然热爱许多多元婚姻的榜样，我热爱我所在的社群。我热爱成为教会的一员。我很受欢迎，这可能有点帮助。但我认识很多人，在我们的社区里我总是很忙，我过得非常开心。

so I loved I still loved so many of the examples that I saw of plural marriage, and I loved the community that I was in. I loved being part of the church. I was popular, so it kind of probably helped. But I knew a lot of people. I was always so busy in our community, and I had such a good time.

他们都很喜欢。就社交层面而言，我参加了唱诗班、戏剧，等等，我参与了很多活动。对。所以继续下去就显得顺理成章。

They loved it. Just for the social aspect of it, I was involved in the choir and plays and, you know, whatever. I was involved in a lot of things. Yeah. And so continuing that just made sense.

而且我仍然——我意识到经历了这一切，我仍然热爱我祖母给我树立的榜样。因为，再说一遍，在我祖父去世后，她们彼此就是最好的朋友。我觉得看着她们、待在她们身边是一件美好的事。我祖母是我认识的最厉害的女人。我爸的妈妈超酷。

And I still had I realized that through all of this, I still loved the example that my grandma set for me. Because, again, after my grandpa died, they were each other's best friends. And I thought it was beautiful to watch them and be around around them. And my grandma was like the most badass woman I've ever known. My dad's mom was so cool.

我现在腿上还有我祖母的纹身。

And I have a tattoo of my grandma's on my leg now.

我的天。

Oh my god.

是我祖母——我知道。这完全违背我们的文化，我们文化里根本不允许纹身。但我知道我需要把她刻在我身上。所以我纹了这些玫瑰，这些花代表我的祖母们，她们大概都会在坟墓里翻身说：“克莉丝汀，你在搞什么”

It's my grandma I know. Know. It's it's totally against our culture to have tattoos whatsoever. But I knew I needed her tattooed on my body. So I have these roses, these flowers that represent my grandma's, and they probably all roll over in their graves and be like, Christine, what are

你还好吗？到时候你会厌恶它的，当

you doing? You'll disgust it when

你们到了，你们知道的，到了你们要去的地方。你知道，你会

you get, you know, to wherever you guys are going. You know, you'll

你会谈论它的。

you'll talk about it.

他们会喜欢的。他们喜欢。没关系。我是说，但它是

They're gonna love it. They love it. It doesn't matter. Mean, but it's

它就像是……就像你无法想象离开这个你如此核心的社区，听起来是这样。但同时，你能否跟我讲讲其中的情感层面？因为我们一开始聊的时候你说，一夫多妻制被描述成——你被教导的是——它会让你成为更好的人。对吧？

it's it's so it's like it's like you couldn't imagine leaving this community in which you were so central, it sounds. Yeah. But also at the same time, can you talk me through sort of the, like, emotional dimensions of it? Because we opened this conversation with you saying the way that plural marriage had been described to you, you've been taught about it, was it makes you a better person. Right?

是的。我得……我喜欢这一点。

Yeah. I have to I love that.

是的。我不得不想……嗯，我……我想知道反过来。那是否意味着你妈妈离开这段一夫多妻制让她成了更糟的人，更软弱的人？

Yeah. I have to imagine that. Well, I yeah. I wonder the flip side. Did it mean then that your mom leaving this plural marriage made her a worse person, made her a weaker person?

哦，相信我。在我虔诚的阶段，我确实这么觉得。我经历过很多次变得极端虔诚。是的。我知道她在犯罪，会直接下地狱，她会在深渊里永远燃烧。

Oh, believe me. In my pious stages, I did feel like that. I went through so many times where I became ultra pious. Yeah. And I knew that she was sinning and going straight to hell, and she was gonna burn in the depths forever.

你知道吗？天啊。我确实有过那种荒谬的想法。我觉得，嗯，不管怎么着，如果我过一夫多妻制的生活，我就能进入高天国。

You know? Oh my god. I did feel ridiculous things like that. I felt like, you know, whatever. I could get to the celestial kingdom if I lived plural marriage.

她不能去那里，那是她的选择。她什么都有，却放弃了。真的。我经历过那种极度的虔诚。不。

She couldn't be there, and that was her choice. She had everything, and she gave it up. No kidding. I went through such piety. No.

但这很尴尬。

But can It's embarrassing.

我想说，你知道，如今我们隔着几十年的距离回望，你已经离开了这个信仰。但我想真正停下来，因为你说的这些话非常有分量。你的意思是，在你生命中的某些时刻，你相信你的母亲做了一个选择，这个选择让她无法进入高荣国度，无法永远与你和你的兄弟姐妹在一起。这太重大了。

I say, you know, right now, obviously, we're talking with the distance of decades, and you've left this faith. But I wanna really pause because what you're saying is is really impactful. What you're saying is at times in your life, you believe that your mom had made a choice that prevented her from going to the celestial kingdom, from being with you and your siblings for eternity. That's huge.

那很难。

And that It's hard.

听起来非常艰难。听起来令人心碎。

It sounds incredibly difficult. It sounds devastating.

是的。所以我必须做出选择。绝对必须。我知道我得决定，是要过多重婚姻的生活，留下来和我爸爸以及另一位妈妈在一起，永远永远地在永恒中与他们相伴，呃。

Yeah. So I did have to make a choice. Absolutely. Like, I knew that I had to decide if I was gonna live plural marriage, I was going to stay with my dad and my other mom and be with them forever and ever into eternity. Ugh.

但像我的兄弟姐妹、朋友们等等，还有我知道那才是对的，对吧？但或者我可以和我妈妈在一起。但我觉得她并不快乐。我觉得她正在放弃她所熟知的一切，她还在努力理清头绪。

But like, my siblings and friends and things like that, and where I knew it was right. Right? And but or I could be with my mom. But I didn't feel like she was very happy. I felt like she was leaving everything that she knew, and she was still trying to figure things out.

我想她很孤独。她得弄明白一些事情，那对她来说当然也是动荡不安的时期。所以我才需要进行很多灵魂探索。

I think she was lonely. She had to figure some things out, and it was such a, you know, time of unrest for her too, of course. And I that's why I had a lot of soul searching that I had to do.

这真是太……谢谢你愿意谈到这些。我真的很感激。我想稍微往回追溯一下，因为我想确保我们把这些步骤都讲清楚。就像，你进入了这段极度虔诚的时期。我想说，当你处于这种状态时，你仍然想成为一位“姐妹妻”。

It's so thank you for for going there. I really appreciate it. I'm just gonna walk it back because I wanna make sure we get all these steps. It's like, you you enter this period of such intense piety. And I I wanna just say like, as you're you're you're in this zone, you still wanted to be a sister wife.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你19岁、20岁，二十出头。你希望你自己的婚姻是什么样子？

You're 19, 20, you're in your early twenties. What did you want your own marriage to look like?

安娜，你会喜欢这个的——我想当第三任妻子。

You're gonna love this, Anna. I wanted to be a third wife.

第三任妻子。你特别想当第三任。是的。就指定第三任。

Third wife. You wanted to be a third Yes. Wife specifically.

它停顿了一下吗？然后你就会想，哇哦。

Did it pause for a minute? And you'd be like, woah.

这是像克里斯汀·克里斯汀理论？理论？是的。还是一种实际的理论——好吧。不是。

Was this like a Christine Christine theory? Theory? Yes. Or was this like an actual theory of of okay. No.

这都只是……

This was all just sort of

没人把这话大声说出来过。我知道我是多配偶制理性的代言人。第一任妻子得一直伺候那个男人，我真的觉得男人很难搞。他们就像拴在你脚上的铁球，如果我只跟一个男人绑在一起，我就没法做我想做的所有事。

No one else had ever voiced this out loud. I knew I was the voice of polygamy reason. First, wife has to deal with the man all the time. And I really felt like men were difficult. They're like this ball and chain to you, and I wouldn't be able to do everything that I wanted to do if I was shackled to a guy and it was just me and him alone.

我就觉得那听起来太荒谬了。第一任 swipe。

And I'm like, that sounds like ridiculous. First swipe.

太费劲了。对。对。

Too much work. Yeah. Yeah.

别给我报名。那时候我才不要。可当第二任妻子，我觉得更糟。因为第二任妻子会破坏一段婚姻，你会成为夫妻之间的楔子。

Don't sign me up for that. Not back then. But then being a second wife, I thought sounded worse. Because a second wife, you're gonna break up a marriage. You're gonna be a wedge between a partnership, between a marriage.

我就觉得，我绝对不想当楔子拆散别人。不。不。不。所以我想当第三任妻子，因为第一任妻子已经替我把那男人的苦活都干完了。

I'm like, well, I definitely don't wanna be a wedge and split somebody up. No. No. No. So I wanna be a third wife because the first wife has done all the hard work with the guy.

二老婆已经做了所有苦差事，比如拆散家庭、腾出位置。完全正确。我只需要一路卖到底就好了。这太妙了。真的太妙了。

The second wife has done all the hard work with, like, breaking up the family, making room. Totally. I just get to sell right on through all of this. It was brilliant. It was so brilliant.

我注意到，当我们谈论一夫多妻时，你谈的是你的祖母们，你谈的是你的妈妈们。我很少听到那个男人的事。这让我很震惊，一夫多妻对你来说，可能更多是与这些女性之间的关系。我真的被这一点震撼了。

I'm struck by, you know, as we talk about plural marriages, you speak about your grandmothers. You speak about your moms. And I'm not really hearing that much about the guy. Like, it's striking to me that plural marriage might in fact, like, at least for you, have been so much more about these relationships with other women. I'm I'm I'm struck by that.

我知道。嗯，我很喜欢浪漫的想法。我喜欢坠入爱河、找到我的另一半、从此幸福生活的想法。所以我确实喜欢那一部分。作为一个人，那对我非常重要。

I know. Well, so I love the idea of romance. I love the idea of being in love, of finding my person and living happily ever after. So I did love that part of it. And that, like, as a person was so important to me.

但我和姊妹妻子们的关系对我更重要。我真的知道，我和妈妈们之间的关系是我最喜欢的东西。我和另一位妈妈、和我妈妈、和我祖母们、和我姑姑们的关系，塑造了当时的我。那些是最有影响力的关系。现在我爸爸是我的英雄，百分之百。

But my relationship with my sister wives was more important to me. Like, I really knew that my relationship with my moms had been my favorite thing. My relationship with my other mom, with my mom, with my grandmas, with my aunts, those were the relationships that helped mold me into the person that I was at that time. Those were the most influential relationships. Now my dad is my hero, 100%.

他是我认识的最了不起的人。他那么有爱心、善良、慷慨，是个非常出色的人。但我的妈妈和祖母们的影响更强大。所以我非常喜欢和更多妈妈一起抚养孩子的想法，因为我太喜欢这种体验了。所以归根结底，当我有了孩子，我就能给他们这些其他妈妈，他们可以亲近、可以友好相处。

He is the most incredible human that I know. He's so loving and kind and giving and just an exceptional human being. But the impact that my mom's had and grandmas was more powerful. So I loved the idea of raising children with more moms because I loved it so much. So it came down to when I had kids, I'd be able to give them these other moms that they could be close to and they could be friendly with.

如果我在育儿上遇到困难，我知道自己无法满足他们的需求，我的姊妹妻子可以帮忙，他们和她的关系会很好、很酷，他们会有一个我信任的人可以倾诉。哇。各位，我相信“村庄”理念。你知道，养孩子需要一个村庄。是的。

And if I was struggling with them and I knew I couldn't meet their needs, my sister wife could help, and and their relationship with them would be so good and cool, and they'd have someone they could talk to that I trusted. Wow. Guys, I believe in the village. You know, it takes a village to raise kids. Yeah.

我相信她们。

I believed in them.

我们要短暂休息一下。别走开。

We're gonna take a quick break. Stay with us.

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嗨，纽约时报。我对共享订阅拥有独立登录账号非常感兴趣。我35岁了，还在用我父母的纽约时报订阅。

Hi, New York Times. I would be very interested in having separate logins for a shared subscription. I'm 35 years old. I still share my parents' New York Times subscription.

我觉得如果我的孩子们有自己的登录账号，我们可以互相分享文章。它不会让我们同时玩同一个游戏。

I think if my teenagers were to have their own logins, we could share articles. It doesn't let us play the same games as each other.

我玩这个 Stoku。

I play this Stoku.

我做填字游戏。

I do the crossword.

我做拼字蜂。

I do the spelling bee.

我做 Wordle。请帮帮忙。

I do the word all. Please help.

拥有各自账号就太棒了。我妈妈可以保存她自己的食谱，我的朋友们也能保存他们的食谱。我想收到

Having our own accounts would be amazing. My mom could save her own recipes. My friends could save their recipes. I wanna get the

每周通讯，但它们似乎总是发到我丈夫那里，然后他也不转发给我。

weekly newsletter, but they seem to always go to my husband, and then he doesn't forward them to me.

我们俩都喜欢做饭。我是三十分钟快手晚餐党，我男朋友则非常讲究。我觉得他有自己的个人资料会很棒。

We both love cooking. I'm a thirty minute and under dinner girly. My boyfriend is very elaborate. I think him having his own profile would be great.

我们热爱纽约时报，我们也想各自独立地爱上它。

We love the New York Times, and we would love to love it individually.

听众们，我们听到了你们的声音。现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅。一个订阅最多可支持四个独立登录，送给你生命中的任何人。更多信息请访问 nytimes.com/family。

Listeners, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

让我重新梳理一下。你二十出头，想结婚。具体来说，你想成为第三任妻子，原因我们稍后会详细说明。

So let me re reset us. You're in your early twenties. You wanna get married. Specifically, you wanna be a third wife for reasons we have details.

总得把这点加进去。这是最棒的。

Always need to put that in. It's the best.

你是怎么寻找对象的？你说你不太约会。那这个过程是怎样的？

How were you looking for someone? You said you don't really date. So so so what's that process like?

所以你会观察，你去教堂，然后观察男人。观察大家。我观察家庭。我观察家庭之间的互动。我观察男人如何对待他们的妻子。

So you look, you go to church, and you watch guys. You watch people. I watched families. I watched how families interacted. I watched how guys would act with their wives.

我观察男人如何对待他们的孩子。我观察姐妹妻子们如何相处。我观察，并且留心。我知道我们教堂里哪些男人是出类拔萃的，也知道哪些不怎么样、糟糕透顶等等。我真的只是——我很警觉。

I watched how guys acted with their children. I watched sister wives, how they got along with each other. I watched, and I paid attention. And I knew who the exceptional guys in our church were, and I knew who the not exceptional and terrible and whatever were as well. And I was only really you know, I was just watchful.

你是怎么遇到科迪的，那个你最终嫁给的男人？你在观察所有人。他为什么脱颖而出？

Do you meet Cody, the man you eventually marry? You're watching everyone. Why did he stick out?

我姐姐先认识了他，然后跟我提了他和玛丽。

So my sister had met him first and had told me about him and Mary.

他的第一任妻子？

His first wife?

他的第一任妻子，玛丽。对。然后那个星期天在教堂，她介绍我们认识。但就像那种——我在人群中一眼看到他，我就想，天啊，那是谁？

His first wife, Mary. Yeah. And then that Sunday at church, she introduced us. But, like, it's the whole I saw him across a crowded room, and I'm like, oh my god. Who's that?

然后我姐姐说，那就是Cody，就是我跟你提过的那个人。我说，哦，好吧。于是她直接带我过去介绍我们认识，我们立刻就一拍即合。

And and my sister, she's like, well, that's yeah. That's that's Cody. That's who I was telling you about. I'm like, oh, okay. And so she took me right up and introduced us, and right away we clicked.

立刻就成了那种一见如故的朋友。一切都很自然。他有趣、有活力、外向，真的很酷。我们就开始一起玩。所以你们就是一起玩。

Right away, we became like instant friends. And it was so easy. And he was fun and dynamic and outgoing and just he was really cool. And we just started hanging out. So that's what you do is you hang out.

在相处的过程中慢慢了解彼此。他会在家里办小聚会，我总是被邀请。所以我们就这么一起玩了好几年。我们花了好几年。

You get to know them in the hanging out kind of way. So he would throw like little get togethers at his house, and I was always invited. Like, so yeah. So we just started hanging out for a few years. It took us like years.

我们在一起，呃，我们做了三年半的朋友才结婚。对。

Like, we're together for like like like, we were friends for like three and a half years before we got married. Yeah.

当你和他在一起、一起玩的时候，他让你有什么感觉？

How did he make you feel when you were around him, when you were hanging out?

我觉得闪闪发亮、傻开心，而且被接纳，就像我属于这里。我就是觉得我有归属感。

How felt sparkly and giddy, and I felt just accepted, and I felt like like I belonged. I just felt like I belonged.

可你想当第三任妻子？

But you wanted to be a third wife.

对啊。我知道他那时只有一个妻子，还在跟另一个女人约会。听起来对我正合适，因为我想当第三个。

Yeah. I know. He only had one. So And then he was dating another woman. And, you know, it seems like that would have been perfect for me because I wanna be the third.

但我不太喜欢她。我就想，这可不行，糟了。结果有一天，他突然告诉我他娶了Janelle。我说，谁？

But I didn't really like her. So I'm like, can't do that. Shoot. And so out of the blue, one day, he told me he married Janelle. I'm like, who?

这人是谁？他的第二任妻子。

Who's this person? His second wife.

然后你说，根本不认识她。

And you're like Didn't know her.

我加入，我加入。

I'm in. I'm in.

是啊，我知道，我知道，你以为我会

Yeah. I know. I know. You think that I would

大概花了一年我才反应过来：哦，其实不，他只是……我原本不认识珍妮尔，突然他就娶了珍妮尔，我心想，这人是谁？

it did take me about a year to be like, oh, actually. No. He just I didn't know Janelle. And suddenly, he got married to Janelle. I'm like, who is this person?

嗯，所以他跟我讲了珍妮尔的事，然后见了她之类的，我就想，哦，她挺酷的，我们相处得还行，好吧。

Yeah. And so he told me about Janelle and then met her and everything. I'm like, oh, she's cool. We're fine. Alright.

我居然还真有机会，哇。

I can actually be in the running. Wow.

所以这算挺大的事，对吧？因为你被这个人吸引，他现在有两个妻子，你可能会成为第三个。

So but this is kind of a big deal. Right? Because you're drawn to this person. He now has two wives. You could be the third.

你最终至少实现了某种版本的梦想，成了第三任妻子，你和科迪结婚了。

You ultimately achieve at least some version of your dream. You become a third wife. You and Cody get married.

是的。

I do.

嗯，嗯，跟我说说你们的婚礼吧。

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your wedding.

所以我们的婚礼当天本身很艰难。我妈妈没能到场，这真的让人心碎，因为在我们教会里，很像现在的摩门教，如果你不是教会成员，就不能参加。

So our wedding day itself was hard. My mom couldn't be there, which was really heartbreaking because in our church, much like like the Mormon church now, if you're not, like, in the church, you can't attend.

那挺好的。

That's nice.

她没能来，但她为我做了婚纱。我非常感激，因为我太爱她为我做的这件婚纱了。所以我们努力修复我们的关系，真的开始把两个人的事情理顺。

She couldn't be there, but she made my dress. And I was so appreciative because I loved it that she she made my dress for me. So we'd worked on our relationship and really started figuring things out with the two of us.

我是说，告诉我你穿着妈妈做的婚纱，她却不能到场。你当时是什么感觉？当你……

I mean, tell me about you're wearing this dress that your mom made. She can't be there. Like, how did you how did you feel? Like, when you

我很喜欢穿那件婚纱的感觉，非常喜欢。我和姐姐一起去做了头发，她带我出去，做了头发、指甲，所有的一切。她为我感到非常兴奋。

So I loved how I felt in the dress. I loved it. And I went and I got my hair done with my sister. She took me out, and she got my hair done and nails done and everything. And she was so excited for me.

他们都非常喜欢科迪。所以他们的热情也让那一天变得容易很多，因为我爸爸喜欢科迪，我另一位妈妈、我姐姐都喜欢科迪。我们所有人都真的很兴奋要结婚。我也很兴奋要和科迪结婚，超级兴奋。

They all loved Cody so much. So their enthusiasm also helped a lot with that day because my dad loved Cody, my other mom, my sister loved Cody. Like, we were all just really excited to get married. I was excited to get married to Cody. So excited.

我穿着婚纱，一切都准备好了。他敲门，我开门，他看起来一点也不高兴来这儿。我当时想，等等，什么？玛丽就在旁边。好像他是和玛丽还有珍妮尔一起来的。

And so I had the dress on, and I was all ready. And he knocks on the door, and I open it, and he did not look happy to be there. And I was like, wait, what? And Mary was right there. It's like he came with Mary and Janelle.

我开门，他们三个都在。他们三个。他们三个。对。

And I opened the door and there they are. And he did All three of them. All three of them. All three of them. Yeah.

对，他们就在那儿。他看起来一点也不高兴。我心想，

Yeah. And there they were. And he did not look happy. And I'm like,

他看起来什么样？你能描述一下吗？

What did he look like? Can you describe what

他看起来不知所措。他看起来不知所措。就像，我到底在做什么？他看起来真的在犹豫，但又已经下定决心。我知道，从那个眼神里，他无论如何都会去做这件事，但他真的很不开心在那里。

He looked overwhelmed. He looked overwhelmed. Like, what am I actually doing? He looked like he was, like, really second guessing but committed. Like, I knew in that look that he was going to do it come hell or high water, but he really wasn't happy to be there.

这难道不疯狂吗？

Isn't that crazy?

太让人难过了。我真的为那一刻的你感到难过。

So sad. I really feel sad for you in that moment.

我当时立刻就崩溃了。但我仍然觉得，我立刻就知道哪里出了问题。但我也在想，好吧，那我想就是我的热情会把我们剩下的路走完。你知道吗，我会尽可能开心，尽可能愉快，尽可能积极。我不知道，希望他会改变主意。

I mean I was devastated instantly. But I still believe like, instantly, I knew that there was something wrong. But then I was also like, well, then I guess it's my enthusiasm that'll finish carrying us the rest of the way for now. You know, well, I'm just gonna be as happy as possible, and I'm gonna be as cheerful as possible, and upbeat as possible. And I don't know, hopefully, he'll change his mind.

希望他会回心转意。也许这次旅行不顺利。他确实有两个妻子。他也说过有时候事情会让他感到难以承受。所以我知道，他和玛丽以及珍妮尔的婚姻很艰难。

Hopefully, he'll come around. Maybe it was a bad trip. He's know, he does have two wives. He did talk about how overwhelming it was sometimes. So I knew that, like, his marriage with Mary and Janelle was tough.

有时候他们相处得并不好。所以我就觉得，可能有很多原因，也许不是因为我。你明白吗？

Sometimes they didn't really get along. So I just figured there was a lot of things, and maybe it wasn't me. You know?

我可以说，这对我来说也很难听，因为你在考虑所有这些人和他们的情绪，但听起来在那一刻，你没有考虑的人是你自己，对吗？就像——

Can I say, like, it's also hard for me to hear because you're thinking about all these people and their emotions, but it sounds like in that moment, the person you weren't thinking about is you? Right? Like Well,

我不能。是的。我不能，因为我在想，看，我不知道他是不是因为不想和我结婚才这样。我不知道他是不是因为这些其他事情感到不知所措。但我心碎了。

I couldn't. Yeah. I I couldn't because I'm like, look, I don't know if this is because it's just because of me that he doesn't wanna get married to. I don't know if he's overwhelmed because of all these other things. But I was heartbroken.

说真的，我当时心碎了。

Get me right. I was heartbroken.

你当时完全心碎了。我只是被这样一个事实打动：你已经进入一种‘问题在哪？我们来解决它。我们来诊断它’的状态，就像——想确保每个人都开心。

You were totally heartbroken. I'm just struck by the fact that you're already sort of in, like, where's the problem? Let's fix it. Let's diagnose it. Like, wanna make sure everyone's feeling happy.

所有这些互动，你已经处在那种状态了，对吧？而这就像是婚姻的第一天。告诉我，你们举行了仪式。

All of these dynamics, like, you're already in that mode. Right? And it's like day one Yeah. Of this marriage. Tell me, so you do the ceremony.

嗯，你

Yeah. Does your

我们有

We have

一个国际象棋亲吻。

a chess kiss.

那是什么感觉？你的初吻怎么样？

How was that? How it was your first kiss?

尴尬得要死。没事的。

Awkward as hell. It's fine.

哦，天哪。但我现在看到你笑了，我理解。但在那一刻，哦

Oh, gosh. But it I mean, I know you're laughing now and and I get it. But like in the moment Oh,

不，那很尴尬。太糟糕了。简直丢脸。

no. It was embarrassing. It was awful. It was humiliating.

为什么用这些强烈的词？为什么是丢脸？有什么丢脸的？

It was Why those those words are strong? Why was it why humiliating? What was humiliating about it?

因为我爸在那儿。我另一个妈妈也在，他们都说，我们真的很喜欢。他们都说，我们真的很喜欢科迪。我们所有人都喜欢科迪。我们觉得他很棒。

Because my dad's there. Like, my other mom's there, and they're like, we really like it. They all we really liked Cody. All of us like Cody. We thought that he was great.

我们见过他和玛丽、珍妮尔的关系。我们知道他是个好丈夫，是个好男人。那问题出在哪儿？为什么他在这里没有真正投入？

We've seen him in his relationships with Mary and Janelle. We know he's a good husband. We know he's a good man. So where's the disconnect? Why isn't he really committed here?

你知道吗？我当时想，真不敢相信他们居然这么说，太蠢了。我一直觉得初吻应该在祭坛前，真的。

You know? And I was, like, thinking, I can't believe they're saying this. This was so dumb. And I thought a first kiss should be over the altar. I really did.

他已经结婚了，是个已婚男人。初吻应该……

He's married. He's a married man. The first kiss should be.

对。你是说那让你感到羞辱，因为他那种冷淡——不管用什么词——太明显了，别人都能看出来，你因此觉得尴尬。

Yeah. You're saying it's it's it was humiliating because it was like his disinterest or whatever the the the word is was so apparent other people could see it, and you felt embarrassed by that.

是的。安娜，你说得既漂亮又精准。

Yeah. That was beautifully and eloquently put, Anna.

我只是把你的话重新包装了一下，朋友。

I'm just repackaging your words, my friend.

干得漂亮。太棒了。

Nicely done. That was amazing.

别飞走。

Don't fly.

我以为……

I thought

不，不。

no. No.

不，你太擅长这个了。

No. You're so good at this.

感觉你好像干这行挺久了。但我觉得他当时也很兴奋，你知道吗？所以那个纯洁的吻只是证实了我早已认定的事实——他对出现在那里并不兴奋。于是他给了那样一个轻啄的吻，现在所有人也都知道了。

It's like you've done this for a while. But I thought that he was excited too, you know? And so by that chaste kiss, it just showed what I already knew to be a truth. He wasn't excited to be there. So he gives this little peck of a kiss, and now everybody else knows too.

于是你就搬进去了。跟我说说那种互动关系。

So you you move in. Tell me about that dynamic.

所以我立刻觉得，我的角色会是Mary和Janelle之间的调解人，维持和平，因为我知道她们合不来。我一开始就当调解人，只想做朋友。我会跟所有人做朋友，跟Mary做朋友，跟Jill做朋友，跟Cody做朋友。我们就都是朋友，一起想办法解决。

So I felt like right away, I knew my place was going to be like a mediator in keeping the peace between Mary and Janelle because I knew they didn't get along. So I was gonna be a mediator right away, and I was just gonna be a friend. I was gonna be a friend to everybody. I'd be a friend to Mary, friend to Jill, friend to Cody. And we'd just all be friends, and we would just figure it out.

那在日常生活里是怎样的体验？

What was that like in a day to day sense?

Mary个性更强，对家里有很多非常具体的要求，比如洗衣液的牌子、洗洁精的牌子、毛巾的叠法。Cody就喜欢她这些讲究。所以我们就这样做。做饭之类的事也一样，如果我们轮流下厨，每个人都有机会进厨房做自己爱吃的。可你得表现出色，得是个好厨师，因为

Mary had a stronger personality, and she had more, like, things that were very specific that she liked in the home, like the brand of laundry detergent and the brand of dish soap and the way she folded towels. And Cody loved all of those things about her. So that's what we did. And so many things like that were, like, cooking, like, meals or whatever was like if we take turns cooking, everyone would, like, have a turn in the kitchen so everyone could make their foods. But, man, you had to excel and be a good cook in that kitchen, you know, because what

你做的菜——这有竞争吗？

you made Was it competitive?

可不是嘛，怎么可能没有？再说，Cody有几道他喜欢的菜，恰好都是Mary做的。

I know. Right? How could it not be? Well, again, Cody had some meals he liked. Those happened to ones that Mary made.

所以她有那些更拿手的菜，而Chanel当时还没给家里带来多少她自己的菜，因此她下厨不多。她更多是给自己做饭，但我们还是一起吃。我想她肯定也做过几顿给大家吃。

So she had these meals that were better, and Chanel didn't have a lot of foods that she had even brought into the family up at that point. And so she didn't cook as much. She would make meals for herself more, but we would all eat together. So I I think there must have been some meals that she made for everybody.

在婚姻的第一年里，对吧，Dakota？你的第一个孩子Aspen出生了？是不是这样？

In that first year of marriage, is that right, Dakota? You had your first child, Aspen? Is that

嗯。嗯。嗯。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

我能问你吗，当你有了阿斯彭，然后又有了更多孩子，你和科迪的关系是怎样的？你说这些孩子让你们有了可以联结的东西，确实如此。

Can I ask you, like, as you had Aspen and then more kids, like, what was your your relationship with Cody? You said it these kids gave you something to bond over, certainly.

但是嗯。

But Mhmm.

那你们之间的情感纽带，或者身体纽带呢？你们的关系是如何发展的，当你们……

What about the, like, emotional bond between the two of you or the or even the physical bond? Like, how was your relationship progressing as you

特指和科迪吗？

With Cody specifically?

特指科迪。

Cody specifically.

怎么发展的？我们只是很忙。我们忙得不可开交。甚至很难回忆起来。你真的有时间聊天吗，还是一天结束时就累瘫了？

How did it progress? We're just busy. We were just so flipping busy. It's hard to even remember. And do you really have time for conversations or you're just tired at the end of the day?

你知道的，生活就是变得忙碌，事情太多。所以我只知道，每次和科迪在一起时，我要尽可能保持积极，这样对我们俩来说就像是一段美好的轻松时光，我们可以彼此陪伴，尽可能积极。所以，他会想回来，或者只是喜欢在我身边。我就尽量让一切积极，我们就一直保持很积极的状态。

You know, it's like life just got busy and life just got so much. And so I just knew that I just needed to be as positive as possible every time Cody was with me, so it could just be like a a lovely light time for both of us where we could just connect and just be with each other and have it be positive as possible. Yeah. So what, he'd wanna come back or so, he would just enjoy being around me. So I just made it as positive as possible, and we just kept it pretty positive.

但在麦凯尔维出生后，我们进入了一段更浪漫的阶段。在那之后我们进入了一段更浪漫的阶段。我想说我们美好的一年就是从麦凯尔维出生后开始的，接下来的大概十年里，我和科迪一切都真的很好。哇。

But after, like, after McKelvety was born, we hit like a more of a romantic stride. Like, hit more of a romantic stride after that. And I'd say that's where kind of our good year started was after I had McKelty for, like, the next like, it's, like, ten years. Everything really was really good with Cody and I. Wow.

我得说故事还没完，对吧？因为结婚十四年后，你们有了五个孩子。

I will say the story continues, does it not? Because fourteen years into your marriage, you have five kids.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这时候你们已经有亲生孩子了。你们开始在TLC拍真人秀，叫《姐妹妻子》。没错。你们所有的关系都在电视上展开。

Bio kids at this point. You start filming a reality show on TLC. It's called Sister Wives. Yes. You are seeing all of your relationships play out on TV.

你和科迪的关系，和玛丽、和珍妮尔、和你自己的孩子、和所有孩子的关系。我是说，答案肯定特别复杂，但，比如，被拍摄、又在屏幕上看到自己，这怎么改变家里的氛围？

Your relationship with Cody, with Mary, with Janelle, with your kids, with all the kids. I mean, I don't even know the answer to this must be so enormous, but, like, how did that change the dynamic at home being filmed watching yourself on screen?

一开始我们觉得一切都挺棒的。就多配偶家庭来说，我们是很好的样板。所以我当时很喜欢，第一季我超爱。但后来采访变得很难。

So at the beginning, we felt like what we had was just great. As far as plural families go, we were a great example of a plural family. So I loved it. I loved the first season. But then the interviews got hard.

节目本身也越来越难。我们拍的时候都很坦诚、很脆弱，然后还得在沙发上拆解。我们家以前不太聊这些事，就那样过去了。他们会抛出各种问题，有时在现场我们根本答不上来。

The episodes got harder too. We'd film something and we'd all be open, we'd all be vulnerable, and then we'd have to freaking dissect it on the couch. And we've been a family that hadn't really talked about things a lot. And then he did whatever. They would bring up these questions, and they would be so hard for us to answer on the set sometimes.

我们还没把罗宾正式带进这场对话。这么说吧，节目早期，科迪开始认识一位叫罗宾的新女性，最后他们结婚了。

And we actually haven't brought in Robin to this conversation yet. So let's just say, while the show is in the early stages, Cody starts to see a new woman named Robin, and eventually, they get married.

我们都认识罗宾，都知道她要来，也都同意了。所以科迪——对，科迪是和玛丽一起先见到她的。

Well, we all knew Robin. We all knew she was coming. We all agreed. We so when Cody yeah. So when Cody met Robin, it was with Mary that he met her.

他认识罗宾后，我们几乎立刻也见了她。大家一起玩，都同意他娶罗宾。在我们家，这就是多配偶制里该有的流程。

He met Robin. We met her almost, like, really quickly after that. And we all were hanging out. We all agreed he should marry Robin. Like, in our family, things that's like the proper way to do it when you're polygamous and stuff.

他确实追求了她，也确实花了更多时间。他们的婚礼大概是在九个月到一年后，所以追求期很长。整个过程都被拍下来，婚礼准备也被拍。

He did court her. He did sport spend more time. Like, their wedding was, I don't know, like, nine months, a year later. So it was a long they had a long courtship. Because and then the whole thing was filmed, all of it was filmed, and getting ready for the wedding was filmed.

因为节目，整个周期比普通多配偶婚姻长得多，看着也格外难受，我就直说了。

So it was prolonged way longer than usual plural marriages because of the show, which is also seven kinds of not fun to watch. I'm just gonna tell

你那个。对吧？当然。

you that. Right? Of course.

是啊。对吧？然后你还能在电视上看？不。不是我最喜欢的。

Yeah. Right? And then you get to watch it on TV too? No. Not my favorite.

你知道，你在书里写到的关于罗宾的那件事也很明显，科迪和罗宾之间有联系。你提到看到她在第二集里称他为她的灵魂伴侣，而且那种关系真的只会继续加深，并造成一些裂痕。所以，当这一切发生的时候，那种关系也在萌芽。你能分享一下，嗯，一段记忆或场景，当时你意识到，哇，情况真的不太妙。有没有一个场景浮现在脑海里？

You know, the the thing with Robin too that you write about in the book is it was very clear that Cody and Robin connection. You mentioned seeing her call him her soulmate in the second episode, and and that really that that only continues to sort of deepen and cause some rifts. So while all of this is going on, that sort of relationship is also burgeoning. Can you share, yeah, a memory or scene from this time where you realized, like, wow, things are really not great. Like, is there a scene that comes to mind?

有。我们有一次家庭聚会，家庭聚餐，谁的生日吧，在珍妮家。我站在那里，玛丽、罗宾和科迪就坐在那儿聊天。他们三个凑在一起，都在笑。

Yeah. We had this family party, this family get together, someone's birthday, I don't know, over at Janelle's house. And I stood there and, like, Mary and Robin and Cody were just all sitting there talking. The three of them were kind of huddling. They were all laughing.

我看了看珍妮，她就在玩手机什么的，孩子们都在玩，一切都挺好。而我只是觉得，我完全是个局外人。然后我回了家，回到房间，躺在床上就哭了。我心想，我做不到。

And I looked over at Janelle and she was just like, on her phone or something, and all the kids were playing and everything was good. And I just was like, I am completely on the outside here. And I went back home, and I went to my room. I just laid in bed and I just cried. And I'm like, I can't do this.

我不能坐在这儿看着科迪坠入爱河。玛丽、科迪和罗宾组成这个可爱的小三人组，而我却被排除在外。哇。你知道，我感觉自己不会融入。我不知道自己是否想融入。

I can't sit here and watch Cody fall in love. And Mary and Cody and Robin have this cute little trio, and I'm like on the outside. Wow. You know, and I don't feel like I'm gonna fit. I don't know if I want to fit.

而且我们本应表现出这是一个运转得非常良好的家庭。

And like, we're supposed to show that we're this family where everything works really well.

为了节目。而这里

For the show. And here

我们在电视上。我们有节目。新妻子要进来。我们本应表现得像一切都无比幸福，可这真的很难。哇。

we are on TV. We have a show. New wife coming in. We're supposed to be like everything is supposed to be a blissful time for all of us, and it is just hard. Wow.

而且就是让人难以承受，我甚至没有位置，我甚至都不合群。

And it is just overwhelming, and I don't even have a place, and I don't even fit.

这让我很触动。我记得我们谈话一开始你提到的一夫多妻的社群。你的姐妹妻子们以及你和她们的关系对你来说如此重要，而你分享的这个回忆里，你却感到如此孤独。你完全是一个人，这与你想要的完全相反。

It strikes me. I remember the beginning of our conversation when you spoke about the community of plural marriage. Your sister wives and your relationships being so important to you, and it just is very striking to me that this memory you're sharing, you feel so alone. You're totally lonely. It's the opposite of what you wanted.

完全相反。我想要的是一个团结在一起、一起做事的真正家庭，是一个真正的社群。

Complete opposite of what I wanted. I want a family that was all together and did things together, it was a real community.

当你描述那个派对上的回忆时，你说，我不知道自己是否适合这种动态，而且

When you're describing the that memory at the party that you were like, I don't know if I fit in this dynamic, and

我不知道

I don't

自己是否会适合。嗯。那是你开始想离开的念头出现的时候吗，还是那时候都还没想到

know if I ever will. Yeah. Was that when the idea to leave started, or was that not even a

不，还没。第一次真正想离开，是在维加斯 Truly 住院之后，Cody 在 Robin 家炫耀自己在洗衣服，而我求他去帮忙，因为 Truly 生病了。嗯。

No. Not quite. No. This first, like, time I felt like leaving was after Truly was in the hospital in Vegas, and Cody was bragging that he was doing laundry at Robin's house, and I'd asked him to go help because Truly was sick. Mhmm.

他不愿意去帮忙。于是我就那时候觉得

And he wouldn't go help. And I'm like so I was like at that point.

那时候 Truly 多大？

How old was Truly at the time?

三岁。她三岁。她的肾衰竭了，得做透析。

Three. She was three. And like, her kidneys fell. She went into kidney failure. She has to be on dialysis.

那真的是我人生到那时为止最糟糕的一段时光。最糟。我觉得自己是孤身一人。所以那绝对是第一次真正的低谷，毁灭性的。于是事情开始一点点瓦解。

It was it was really honestly the worst time of my life up until that point. It was the worst. I felt like I was alone. So that was like an absolute first, like, real low that was just so devastating. And so it started to fall apart a little bit.

所以那时候，我第一次有离开他的念头就是那时。然后我就想，好吧。看，她更好。

So back then, my first thoughts of leaving him was then. And then I was like, alright. Look. She's better.

我真的

Truly I

只是不停地希望事情会好转，一直希望、希望、希望。

just kept on hoping that it would get better and hoping and hoping and hoping.

你为什么还抱有希望？是什么让你在那么艰难、那么痛苦的时候还坚持？这

Why were you hoping that? Like, what was what was motivating you to hang on when it was so hard when it was so hard? It

并不总是艰难的，对吧？你知道，也有一些好时光。是啊。所以你得把那些好时光当作希望。

wasn't always hard. Right? I have you know, there were times that were good too. Yeah. So you have to look at those times that were good as hope.

但还有我的信仰。我信仰一夫多妻制。我相信这就是我一直想要的生活。我终于过上了这种生活，这真的就是我想要的，我也希望我的孩子能有这些别的妈妈在身边，这就是我要做的。所以即使我想离开，也很快被“我得留下”取代。

But then it was also my belief. I believed in plural marriage. I believed this was the life I always wanted. Here I was finally living it, and this is really what I wanted, and this is what I want for my kids to have these other moms in their life, and this is what I'm going to do. So even though I felt like leaving, it was quickly replaced with I need to stay.

接下来的十年里，我时不时会觉得我该离开，但又真的得留下。我仍然相信我们会一直在一起，一切都会好起来，我们会坐在门廊的摇椅上看着孙子孙女。就像，这真是一种

And then there'll be times for the next ten years after that where I was like, I need to leave, but then I really need to stay. And I still believe that we would be all together and everything would be great, and we'd sit on our rocking chairs watching our grandchildren from the porch. Like, it just It was such a

拉扯。就像，那你最终崩溃的点是什么？哪一刻你意识到，哦，不，这真的行不通了。我真的得离开了。

push and pull. Like, it you just so what was the breaking point? What was the moment where you knew, like, oh, no. It actually isn't gonna work out. Like, I actually really do need to leave.

那是什么时候？

When was that?

是伊莎贝尔做手术那次，科迪说他不能来。

The Isabelle surgery that Cody said he couldn't come.

伊莎贝尔也是你的孩子之一。没错。

Isabelle's another one of your children. Yep.

是的，抱歉。那时伊莎贝尔14岁，我们查出她有脊柱侧弯。我们开始去这些医生预约，科迪很棒，他太出色了。

Yeah. Sorry. So Isabel at that point was 14 when we found out that she had scoliosis. And we started going to these doctor appointments, and Cody was great. He was phenomenal.

他陪我们一起去看医生。我们尝试了各种其他办法，但最终还是得做手术。那是疫情期间，她的背部情况太糟了。她当时17岁，已经停止生长，所以时机到了。我们告诉他，他说，我不能离开我的家人那么久。

He went to the doctor appointments with us. We tried all these other things and everything, but it came down to she needed surgery. And it was during COVID that she needed her just her back got too bad. She was 17 at that point and stopped growing, so it was time. So I we told him and he's like, I can't leave my family for that long.

哇。

Woah.

伊莎贝尔后来就说，我还以为我们是他的家人呢。我心想，我会永远是你的家人，我会永远做你的妈妈。

And Isabelle's like after she's like, I thought we were his family. And I'm thinking, I will be your family. I will be your mom always.

我也被那句话震撼了。‘我不能离开我的家人那么久’，那你们算什么？正是。

I mean, I'm also struck by that language. I can't leave my family for that long. It's like, well, what does that make you? Exactly.

我也以为我们是他的家人。所以我想，如果我们不是他的家人，当他女儿要做背部手术时他明确说不能离开他的家人，那我们就不是。那我就成为世界上最独立、最牛的妈妈，因为我的孩子们需要这样的我。

I thought we were his family too. So I'm like, well, if we're not his family, so clear when his daughter's having a back surgery that he can't leave his family, then we're not. Then I'm going to become the most independent badass mom in the world because that's who my kids need.

我还在回味他说‘我不能离开我的家人那么久’那句话。

I I just am still thinking about when he says I can't leave my family for that long.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

再跟我说一次，那句话对你来说意味着什么？

Just describe to me one more time, like, what did that mean to you?

那一刻我意识到，我永远不会拥有更好的婚姻了。这太侮辱人了。你不能作为一个父亲对女儿说那样的话，我也绝不会嫁给一个把我女儿和他自己的孩子当成无关紧要的人。如果事情就是这样，那这段关系就毫无希望了。继续这样过下去毫无意义。

I realized at that point that there was no hope that I would ever have a better marriage. That's insulting. You cannot be a dad and say that to your daughter, and I will not be married to a man who treats my daughter and his children like they don't matter. And if that's what it's going to be, then there is no hope left for this. There's no point in staying like this.

那一刻我明白，没有他，我能为孩子们提供更好的生活。

I knew at that point, I could provide a better life without him for my children than with him in it.

哇，这太有力量了。感觉非常决绝。

Oof. That's powerful. I mean, and it feels extremely definitive.

哦，是的，我已经彻底死心了。然后我们去了那次旅行，我发现，其实没有他反而轻松多了。我真的很喜欢那种感觉。我爱死了。

Oh, yeah. I was done. And then we went on that trip, and I was like, actually, this is a lot easier without him here. So I actually really like it. I loved it.

那是我最喜欢的一次旅行

That was my favorite trip I

读到书里那段时，我爱死了，因为情绪太激烈了，你已经彻底放弃，然后你又说，对，没他在的时候简直太棒了。

got in. Reading that part in the book. I loved it because it's so dramatic and emotion filled, and you're done. And then you're like, yeah. Know it was awesome when I wasn't with him.

我

I

爱死了。

loved it.

我爱死了。

I loved it.

她们手术前在泽西海岸待了两周。开什么玩笑？这太轻松了。生活都把我累坏了。我当时想，哇。

They we're at the Jersey Shore for two weeks before her surgery. Are kidding me? This is easy. Tired by life. I'm like, wow.

他不在场真是太好了。就是那种感觉，没错。不，我举双手赞成，伙计。我爱Can

Him not being here is amazing. That whole like that yeah. No. Sign me up, man. I loved Can

你喜欢，你最先告诉了谁你要离开的决定？

I like, who did you tell first about your decision to leave?

嗯，我妈妈。我给我妈打了电话。于是我打给我妈，我坐在那儿望着窗外，风景很美。然后我说，妈，我得离开科迪。她就说，好吧。

Well, my mom. I called my mom. So I called my mom, and I'm like, sitting there looking out the window, this beautiful view. And I'm like, mom, I have to leave Cody. And she goes, okay.

“那具体会怎样？”我说，“嗯，我得离开他，得搬到犹他去。”她说，“哎呀，我可太喜欢这主意了。那咱们需要做什么？”我说，“我不知道该怎么办。”

Well, what does that look like? And I said, well, I have to leave him and I have to move to Utah. And she's like, well, I like the sound of that a heck of a lot. So what do we need to do? I'm like, I don't know what to do.

“所以我才打给你。”她说，“好。你要双脚踩实地面，深吸一口气。然后开始过你该过的生活。你要带着喜悦做选择，别再因为恐惧做决定。”

That's why I'm calling you. And she goes, okay. You're gonna put both feet on the ground, and you're gonna take a deep breath. And then you're gonna start living the life you need to live. And you're gonna make the choices out of joy, and you're gonna stop making choices out of fear.

于是她完全支持我先扎根，再前行。就这样。

And so she was all about just planting, getting grounded, and then moving on. And that's it.

你妈妈离开了她的婚姻。对。她和你爸的婚姻，在你19岁的时候，你当时无法理解，对吗？

Your mom left her marriage. Yeah. Your her marriage to your dad when you were 19 and you didn't understand it. Right?

完全不懂。

At all.

那一刻你更理解她了吗？

Did you understand it better in that moment?

其实在那之前我就知道她已经想通了，但我不知道的是做决定有多难。我真正明白的是——原来那并不是自私。那是她为自己必须做的，却不是自私。我过去以为离开就代表她自私。

So I knew before that that she had come to terms with everything, but I what I didn't know is how hard it was to make the decision. What I what I understood was how that's what I understood. It wasn't selfish of her. It was what was needed for her for herself, but it wasn't selfish. I thought leaving meant she was selfish.

在那一刻，我确实明白了这并不是你自私。你必须掌控自己的人生，你必须——你必须——没人能替你负责。我也明白了她并不自私。

And at that point, I did understand that it's not you being selfish. You have to be in charge of your own life, and you have to you have to, and no one else will. And I understood she wasn't selfish.

我觉得这真的很美好。

I think that's really beautiful.

哦，那对我来说和我妈妈都是一个美好的时刻。

Oh, well, it was a beautiful moment for my mom and I.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

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你现在结婚了。你提到你处在一段一夫一妻的关系里，是你的第一段。你的第一段一夫一妻关系。

You are now you're married. You mentioned you are in a monogamous relationship, your first. Your first monogamous relationship.

我的第一段一夫一妻关系。是的。是的。是的。

My first monogamous relationship. Yes. Yes. Yes.

跟我说说David吧。我们聊过你和Cody的婚礼那天。是的。是的。说“失望”可能都轻了，那天对你来说。

Tell me about David. We talked about your wedding day to Cody. Yes. Yes. Disappointing, I think would be maybe an understatement that day was for you.

你和David的婚礼那天怎么样？那是什么感觉？你是怎么……那是

How was your wedding day with David? What was that like? How did you It was a

完美的童话，我所有的梦想都成真了。就像，它就是我想要的一切。但我嫁的是我的伴侣，一个和我一起策划婚礼的人。大卫参与了那天的每一个细节。我们一起策划。

perfect fairytale where all of my dreams came true. Like, it was everything that I hoped for. But I was marrying my companion, someone I planned the wedding with. David was there for every single detail of the entire day. We planned.

我们一起策划了所有事情。每次有什么问题，我都会说，宝贝，我们得搞定花。他会说，好。你知道，我们得搞定签到本。好。

We planned all of it together. Every time there was a issue with whatever, I'd be like, babe, we gotta figure out the flowers. He'd be like, okay. You know, we gotta figure out the sign in book. Okay.

他会帮忙做所有事情。所以我得和我的伴侣开始我的生活。而且，我们其实早就开始了，但就婚姻而言，那是完美的一天。我爱上帝，太棒了。

And he would help with everything. So I gotta start my life with my partner. And, well, we kind of already started before, but as far as marriage goes, it was an amazing it was perfection. It was a perfect day. I love God, it was amazing.

听你讲这些真好，因为你笑得特别灿烂，我……哦，是的。我就喜欢……你知道，我也在尽量不去做太多对比，因为当然，这很不一样。但，你说过科迪在你婚礼那天看你的眼神，当大卫在婚礼那天看到你时，你从他眼里看到了什么？就像

Being able to see you talk about this because you are just really smiling in a way I Oh, yeah. I just love to you know, and I'm also thinking not to draw so many parallels because, of course, it's so different. But, you know, that look that you said Cody gave you on your wedding day, when David saw you on your wedding day, what did you see in his eyes? Like

你知道吗？我还没看到他的时候，我和佩顿一起走在过道上。我说，我应该紧张吗？他说，不，我觉得不会。我望向大卫，看见他在那里等我。

You know what? Before I even saw him, I was walking down the aisle with Peyton. And I was like, am I supposed to be nervous? And he goes, no, I don't think so. And I looked over at David and I saw him standing there waiting for me.

然后我就想，哦，那一刻我屏住了呼吸。他真的很喜欢我现在的样子。但远不止于此。不只是外表。他爱的是我的全部，我的一切。

And I was like, oh, and it took my breath away. He really liked what I looked like. But it was more than that. It wasn't just appearance. He loves me as a whole being, everything about me.

所有人都看到了大卫和我有多相爱。

Everybody got to see how much David and I love each other.

这对你来说意味着什么？

What does that mean to you?

所以就像，这是一个完整的圆。在那一刻，是我和大卫之间的安全感。但知道我能成为孩子们眼中真爱的榜样，我喜欢我的孩子们有这样一个婚姻的样子可以参考。

So it's like, it's this complete circle. Like, at that point, it's the security that I have with David. But knowing that I get to be this example to my kids of what true love looks like. I like that my kids have this as an example of what marriage looks like.

我想说，你的孩子们已经看到你经历了非常不同的关系

I was gonna say your kids have seen you go through now very different relationships

嗯。

Mhmm.

非常不同的婚姻，痛苦，你知道的，正如你所说的那种救赎。你通过与大卫的关系向孩子们展示了什么？是的。

Very different marriages, pain, you know, certainly redemption as you describe it. What do you get to show your kids through your relationship with David? Yeah.

为自己而活的人生是什么样子。所以他们看到我离婚，也看到我过自己的生活。他们看到当我能为自己做选择时，我变得多么强大。他们见证了这一切。我也很高兴他们看到了。

What it looks like when you live your life for yourself. So they got to see me divorced, and they got to see me living my own life. And they got to see how strong I became when I got to make choices for myself. And so they saw that. And I love that they saw that too.

我觉得他们比以往任何时候都更能尊重我这个人。他们一直觉得我是一位好妈妈，但他们也看到我成为一个好人，一个真实的人。而现在我找到了大卫，他们也看到我是一个好妻子，处于浪漫的角色中，沐浴在爱里。我的孩子们能看到我陷入爱河，这太酷了。真是太棒了。

I felt like they could respect who I was as a person more so than ever before. They always thought that I was a good mom, but they got to see me as a good person, and then as a good human. But now that I found David, they also got to see me as a good wife, and in a romantic role, and in love. It's so cool that my kids get to see me in love. Is so amazing.

那真的很酷。

That is really cool.

确实很酷。我喜欢我的孩子们看到我和大卫的这段关系，看到我可以和一个人无话不谈。你知道吗？他们也可以和他无话不谈。他们都能跟大卫聊天。

It is cool. I love that my kids get to see me in this relationship with David and with someone who I can talk to about everything. And you know what? It's someone they can talk to about everything too. They can all talk to David.

他们和大卫的关系都很好，会跟他聊天，有时候他和他们的对话比我还深入。

They all have these great relationships with David where they talk to him and they have he has better conversations with them than I do half the time.

你觉得……好吧，我不知道怎么说，我就直接问吧。你觉得一夫多妻制……你觉得这种婚姻能行吗？

Do you think do your well, I don't know how let me just say like it directly. Do you think plural marriages do you think they work?

我觉得如果要实行一夫多妻，就必须进行真正的自我反省，对自己完全诚实。确保你的需求被听见，确保你在被倾听。平等必须极其重要。绝不应该有“妻子等级”。

I think that if you're going to have a plural marriage, that there needs to be some like real introspection and real honesty with yourself. And make sure your needs are heard. Make sure that you're being heard. Equality needs to be super important. There should never be a hierarchy of wives.

绝不应该有“最受宠的妻子”。我不知道。我有家人就在过这种生活，有些非常成功；我也有朋友在这方面很成功。那些妻子们都觉得自己被倾听，也和丈夫关系良好。我觉得这很难。

There should never be a favorite wife. I don't know. I have family members that live it, and some are very successful, and I have friends that are successful with it. And the the wives all feel like they're heard, and they have good relationships with their husbands. And I think it's hard.