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理论上，我知道这种事情可能发生在任何家庭。
In theory, I knew that this kind of thing can happen in any family.
正直的公民总是被揭露出是隐藏的罪犯，而我甚至不认为我的表弟艾伦是个正直的人。
Upstanding citizens are always turning out to be secret criminals, and I wouldn't even call my cousin Alan an upstanding citizen.
但知道是一回事，理解是另一回事。
But it's one thing to know and another thing to understand.
艾伦，杀了我吧。
Alan, murder me.
艾伦到底在想什么？
What the hell was Alan thinking?
来自Serial Productions和《纽约时报》，我是艾姆·格森，欢迎收听《傻瓜》。
From Serial Productions and The New York Times, I'm Em Gessen, and this is The Idiot.
在你收听播客的任何平台都能听到这个节目。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
现在就去爱，明天也一样。
Love now and tomorrow.
昨晚坠入爱河。
Fall in love last night.
比任何其他事物都更强大。
Is stronger than anything else.
为了爱，爱。
For the love Love.
他们比任何事物都更爱你。
They love you more than anything.
爱。
Love.
仅仅是爱。
Just love.
爱。
Love.
来自《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
这是《现代爱情》。
This is Modern Love.
今天节目中，我们邀请了两位嘉宾：赞达亚和罗伯特·帕丁森。
And today on the show, we have two guests, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.
他们两人主演了一部新电影，名叫《戏剧》。
The two of them star in a new movie called The Drama.
他们在片中饰演一对即将结婚的未婚夫妇。
They play an engaged couple who's about to get married.
当我看完这部电影时，同时产生了两种截然不同的感受。
And when I watched this movie, I had two opposite reactions at once.
一方面，我觉得他们太浪漫了。
On the one hand, I was like, they are so romantic.
另一方面，我又觉得这让我紧张得要命。
And on the other hand, I was like, I'm so stressed out by this.
如果我要继续看下去，我得用手捂住眼睛。
I need to put my hands over my eyes if I'm going to continue to watch this film.
我认为这种戏剧让我有如此强烈感受的原因，是因为它触及了一种真实的焦虑。
I think the reason the drama hit me in this way is because it plays with a very real anxiety.
这种想法是：我们可以非常了解一个伴侣，却永远无法真正完全了解他们的一切。
This idea that we can know a partner so well, but we can never truly know everything about them.
他们总有可能揭示一些让我们措手不及的事情，甚至是一些相当震撼的事情。
There's always a chance they're gonna reveal something that takes us by surprise, maybe even something pretty shocking.
我与罗伯特和赞达亚在洛杉矶见面，我们讨论了这个‘你是否真的能了解一个人’的问题，如何体现在他们的电影和现实生活中。
I met up with Robert and Zendaya in LA, and we talked about how this question, if you can ever really know someone, shows up in their movie and in their real lives.
请继续关注我们。
Stay with us.
我是罗宾，我非常兴奋地打开我的跨性别扮演应用。
I'm Robin, and I am excited to open my Crossplay app.
我正在向我的《纽约时报》同事约翰发起挑战。
I'm challenging John, my colleague at The New York Times.
罗宾出了单词‘grunge’，其中包含字母g，价值四分。
Robin played the word grunge, which has a g, which is four points.
她拿到了三倍单词分。
She got that triple word multiplier.
我要把‘facts’改成‘faxes’，拿30分。
I'm going to take facts and make it faxes for 30 points.
我可能会再用一个两个字母的词，‘woah’能让我拿到23分。
I might just take another two letter word here with woah gets me at 23.
如果我的计算没错，这应该能让我重新领先。
I think this will put me back in the lead if my maths are mathing.
我更喜欢从策略角度来玩，看看怎么阻止对手获得高分。
I like to play it more from a strategic point of view and see where I can block the other player from scoring high.
我很有竞争心。
I'm pretty competitive.
击败朋友和同事很有趣，还能学到新单词。
It's fun to beat friends and coworkers and also get to learn new words.
Crossplay，纽约时报游戏推出的首款双人文字游戏。
Cross play, the first two player word game from New York Times games.
今天免费下载。
Download it for free today.
我觉得他以为自己稳赢了，但我可没这么认为。
I think he thinks he has this in the bag, but I'm not so sure.
赞达亚和罗伯特·帕丁森。
Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.
你好。
Hello.
谢谢你的
Thanks for
的到来。
being here.
欢迎来到《现代爱情》。
Welcome to Modern Love.
谢谢你的有
Thank you for The having
你们两人出演了一部新电影，叫《戏剧》。
two of you are in a new movie called The Drama.
不错。
Nice.
你饰演了一位订了婚的恋人，我喜欢这一点。
You play an engaged I liked that.
每一个问题，我们都觉得是一样的
We Every single question, think it'd the same
同时以同样的方式。
way at the same time.
这很对。
It's quite right.
真的吗？
Really?
两个，一个。
Two, one.
是的。
Yes.
那根本没奏效，该死的。
That didn't really work that damn.
扮演了一对自然的、订了婚的情侣，你知道，你不能完全做到。
Played an Natural, engaged know, you can't Totally.
我们不会强求，但我希望这种情况再次发生。
Force We won't force it, but I hope it happens again.
你扮演了一对订婚的情侣，艾玛和查理。
You play an engaged couple, Emma and Charlie.
他们深爱着彼此，完美契合，就在婚礼前一周，嗯。
They're so in love, they're perfect for each other, and then a week before the wedding Mhmm.
艾玛透露了一件事，我就不剧透了。
Emma reveals something that I'm not going to spoil.
你得去看这部电影才能知道答案。
You have to see the movie to figure it out.
当然。
Absolutely.
但这让查理开始怀疑，他是否真的了解这个女人。
But it causes Charlie to wonder if he even knows, you know, this woman at all.
突然间，这份曾经如此牢固的纽带充满了混乱。
And suddenly this bond that felt so strong is full of chaos.
充满了各种疑虑。
There's all this doubt.
查理陷入困境，不断怀疑婚礼是否还应该举行。
Charlie's spiraling, you know, wondering if the wedding should still even happen.
艾玛看着查理，心想：我们能从这一切中恢复过来吗？
Emma's watching Charlie being like, can we recover from this?
这个男人还爱我吗？
Does this man even love me anymore?
这些，我想说，通常都不是你在婚礼前一周该问的问题。
These are generally, I would say, not questions you want to be asking a week before the wedding.
我从未结过婚，但是
I've never been married, but
但我希望我能想象得到。
But I wish I can imagine.
我做了些研究。
Doing my research.
我们从这里开始吧。
Let's start here.
你花了很多时间与这些角色相处，艾玛和查理。
You spent a lot of time with these characters, Emma and Charlie.
你喜欢他们这个人吗？
Do you like them as people?
你会和他们做朋友吗？
Would you be friends with them?
这里面有很多内容，是的。
There's a lot in that, yes.
是的，我的意思是，是的。
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
我的意思是，我得到了肯定的回答。
I mean, I got Yes.
好的。
Okay.
那是一个温和的肯定，其中
That's a soft yes There's a
蕴含着很多内容。
lot behind that yes.
为我详细解释一下。
Unpack that for me.
他很容易被影响，而我发现，这在一个人身上总是有点不可信。
He's very easy to influence, which is always, I find, a little bit untrustworthy in a person.
但与此同时，他的确是出于好意。
But at the same time, he does mean well.
他正在努力克制自己，对抗那些较弱的本能。
And he's trying to he's trying to kind of temper himself against his sort of weaker instincts.
所以我想他有潜力成为我的朋友。
So I guess he's got potential potential to be my friend.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他很容易被影响？
He's easily influenced?
是的。
Yeah.
但没错。
But yeah.
但他是个浪漫的人，而我认为每一个浪漫的人都有点妄想，对很多事情视而不见。
But he's a romantic, and it's kind of And I think everybody who's a romantic is kind of slightly delusional and blind to lots of things.
我喜欢这一点。
I like that.
你真正成为浪漫主义者的方式只有一种。
The only way you can really be a romantic.
是的，是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
那我们就顺势而为吧。
Well, let's lean into it.
顺势而为。
Lean into it.
有这样一个时刻，你的角色查理第一次接近艾玛的时候。
There is this moment, the first time that your character, Charlie, first approaches Emma.
他用了一个谎言。
He does it with a lie.
他假装读过艾玛正在读的那本书。
He pretends to have read a book that Emma's reading.
我们对这种策略怎么看？
What do we think about this tactic?
这看起来很难做到。
It feels so tough to pull off.
而且没必要。
And unnecessary.
对吧？
Right?
我就是这么想的。
This is what I thought.
对于一个性格内向的人来说，这简直是高风险行为。
Literally, it's high risk for someone who's quite shy.
因为最难的是走过去，然后开始对话。
Because the hard part is going up and just starting the conversation.
百分之百。
100%.
所以这也是我不太喜欢的一个原因
So it's kind of one of the other reasons why I don't really like
因为他一开始撒了谎。
Because he lied initially.
他不得不撒谎，而且这是一个非常具体的谎言，有点像是‘我希望你认为我是某种类型的人’，这大概源于不安全感。
He has to lie, and it's also a very specific lie where it's kind of like, I need you to think I'm a certain And type of it's like which I guess it just comes out of insecurity.
我觉得这还挺可爱的。
Guess it's quite endearing.
我又喜欢上他了。
I like him again.
天啊。
Oh my.
你真的会在最后问出来，然后我们就会
You really will ask at the end, and we'll
看看你到底是不是不想和他一起待。
see if you actually don't want to hang
和他出去。
out with him.
现在，艾玛，你对这个女人有什么看法？
Now Emma, how do you feel about this woman?
你知道吗？
Do know what?
我觉得
I feel
我想和她一起出去玩，因为
like I'd want to hang out with her because
我觉得她需要更多的朋友。
I think she needs more friends.
哦，她需要更多真诚的朋友。
Oh, she needs more genuine friends.
是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
再多说说这一点。
Tell more about that.
我会这么说是因为我觉得这两个角色都拼命地想要被爱、被接纳，希望自己能被人看见。
And I say that because I think both the characters desperately want to be loved and accepted and seen in some kind of way.
从很多方面来看，我觉得她一直都渴望找到归属感，希望自己能真正融入某个环境。
In many ways, I think she just has always wanted a sense of belonging, and to feel like she fits somewhere.
我觉得当她遇到查理的时候，她觉得自己和这个人合得来，然后她会想‘哦，我可以选择自己要成为什么样的人，这就是现在的我了，我还可以……’，我感觉她的个人身份很大一部分都依附在查理的生活里，因为我们从来没见过她自己的朋友。
And I think when she meets Charlie, she feels like she fits with this person, and this, oh, I can choose who I'm going to be, and this is who I am now, and I can, you know, so much I think of her identity is in his life because we don't actually meet her own friends.
确实是这样。
Is true.
我们认识了
We meet
他的那些朋友也就是她的朋友，你知道的，她已经完全融入了他的生活和他的圈子。我并不是说她这样就不忠于自我了，因为我确实觉得这就是她热爱的生活，是她认为适合自己、能让她有安全感的生活。但我觉得，正是这份安全感让她足够放得开，有时候甚至分享得有点太多了。
his friends that are her friends, and you know, she's acclimated herself to his life and his world, and not to say that that's not true to her because I do think that this is the life that she loves and she feels like fits her and she feels safe in, and I think safety that she feels ultimately ends up in making her feel safe enough to share maybe a little bit too much.
所以我只是觉得，你知道的，她需要一些只属于自己的朋友。
And so I just think that, you know, she needs some of her own friends.
我正想说呢，所以你是出于同情才想和她出去玩的对吧？
I was going say, so you want to hang with her out of pity.
我的意思是，你确实得有个女朋友
I mean You're like, you Yes, gotta have a girl
你知道，但你需要，你知道的吧？
know, but you need, you know?
我知道。
I know.
我正在努力呢
I'm making it
所以你当然应该陪在她身边。
Of so you should hang with her course you do.
我总是想，天啊，她除了他之外谁都没有。
And I was always like, dang, she doesn't have anyone else,
你知道的？
you know?
是的
Yeah,
是的。
yeah.
但我认为这反映了她当时的生活状态，以及她的脆弱性，也说明了这段婚姻能否成功对她而言为何如此重要。
But I thought that was indicative of where she's at in her life, and kind of her vulnerability too, and why the stakes of this marriage working out are so important to her.
我本来想说，你知道的，我开头提到过，爱玛在婚礼前一周透露了她过去做过的一件事。
I was gonna say, you know, I opened by saying Emma reveals this thing that she did in her past a week before the wedding.
是的。
Yeah.
我想知道你们俩怎么看这个决定，你们觉得她是不是应该早点告诉他？
And I'm curious for both of you, like, that decision, do you think she should have told him earlier?
你们对此持什么看法？
Where do you come down on that?
我不知道。
I don't know.
这是一部电影，所以如果她提前说了
It's a film, so it's like, if she told
早点告诉他，也许就不会是那么
him earlier, maybe it wouldn't be a very
一部好电影。
good movie.
你想想，不会的，因为那样我就不会
You're like, no, because then I would not
有这个故事了，因为这不会是
have because it wouldn't be the
婚礼前一周。
week before the wedding.
完全对，那
Totally, There
就不会有混乱，也不会有我们所关心的这些了。
would no chaos and nothing for us to, you know.
这是一个很直接的回答，我很感谢，是的，
That's a very straightforward answer, and I appreciate Yeah,
但是，是的，我不确定。
but, yeah, I don't know.
我认为这部电影有趣的地方在于，你会带着很多这样的讨论离开。
And I think that's the interesting thing with this film is is there is a lot of that is the discussion that you will leave with.
还有那份美，毫无疑问。
And the beauty, for sure.
你知道吗？
You know?
这就像是，你是否觉得应该和伴侣谈谈这件事，或者你觉得有必要提出来，还是你能够去慢慢思考
It's like, is that something that you feel like you should talk to your partner about, or do you feel like it was necessary to bring it up, or, you're able to kind of ruminate
细细品味。
Chew on it.
细细品味一段时间，站在两个角色的角度去想，我会不会那样做，或者我会不会那样说，或者
And chew on it for a bit, put yourself in the shoes of both of the characters, and go, well, would I have done that, or would I have said that, or
你在想什么？
What are you thinking?
你在想什么
What are you
罗伯，你在想什么？
thinking, Rob?
我只是觉得，这挺有意思的，因为你希望爱情是一种理想化的爱情。
I'm just thinking it's kind of it's like I think it's interesting because it's you want a romance to be this sort of you want it to be an idealized romance.
而且每个人都希望事情是完美的。
And if you want like, everybody kinda wants you want something to be perfect.
但如果你完全了解了对方，实际上没有任何事物是完美的。
But if you knew everything about the other person, literally nothing is perfect.
所以这就像是，你是否想拥有那种以为找到了完美伴侣、以为关系完美的感觉，这种感觉如此强烈。
And so it's kinda like, do you wanna but also the feeling of thinking you found someone who's perfect and thinking it's a perfect relationship is so profound.
这让人上瘾。
It's addicting.
是的。
Yeah.
你就是
You're It's
一个理想。
an ideal.
是的。
Yeah.
而且你不想放手，但某种程度上，我想这个故事里有一种方式可以拥有它，但这是一种奇妙的信念飞跃，这种感觉无处不在。
And it's kind of like you don't wanna let go of it, but also you can somehow I guess the the story is something there is a way to kind of have it, but it is it's that strange leap of faith, like and which is kind of everywhere.
我们一直在谈论的到底是什么？
Like, what kind of we been talking about all this?
这就像，我们基本上站在围栏的两边，我需要知道
It's like, we're basically kind of on either side of the fence, which, like, I need to know
需要知道的是，是的。
need to know about yes.
让我们展开讨论吧。
Let's open up the debate.
如果这触及了你的一些敏感话题，我很抱歉。
I'm sorry if this is treading territory for
你要表达的话，
you to express,
因为我不认为罗布真的相信这一点。
because I don't think Rob actually believes this.
这里存在分歧。
There's a rift here.
我觉得罗布只是，嗯，想要
I think Rob is just, know, wants to
区别在哪里？
be What is the difference?
什么是
What's the
说真的，当有人要告诉我太多时，我会觉得：你需要重新确立真相。
sense No, when someone's gonna tell me too much, I'm like, You need to reinstitute the truth.
是的。
Yeah.
等等。
Wait.
等等。
Wait.
争论点是什么？
What is the debate?
就像
Just like
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，界限。
Well, mean, the boundaries.
我以为大家都想要界限。
I thought everybody wanted boundaries.
就像你打算和一个人结婚前，想了解对方多少事情一样。
Are just things like how much do you want to know about somebody before you like to marry them or something.
越少越好。
Very little.
他并不想
And he doesn't want to
了解太多。
know very much.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
你会觉得，我觉得这没什么意思。
You're like, I think it's not fun.
如果你期待混乱和惊喜，长远来看你可能会更快乐。
I think the more if you're expecting chaos and surprises, you'll probably be happier in the long run.
如果你只是说，我想知道你每一天会是什么样子，那就非常不浪漫了。
It's very unromantic if you're just like, I want to know exactly what you're to be every single day.
这太无聊了。
Like, that's so lame.
太恶心了。
It's gross.
但是，等等，反驳，反驳一下。
But like, okay, rebuttal, rebuttal.
但在生活中，自然地，我们会成长，会改变。
But in life, naturally, like, we're going to grow and we're going to change.
不管怎样，这都会发生。
Like, that's gonna happen no matter what.
所以至少了解一个人的核心，这样当他们成长和变化时，你也能以某种方式参与其中，你知道吧？
So it's good to know someone at least at the core so that as they grow and as they change, you can be a part of that in some You know?
就像你知道我们来自哪里。
It's like you know where we're coming from.
你说的是，你想了解足以确立基本规则的那些内容。
You're saying you want to know as much as establishes kind of the ground rules.
是的。
Yeah.
这难道不合理吗？
Don't this make sense?
关于一个人是什么样的人，能够去了解他们、和他们交流、一起经历事情，我觉得我很偏心，因为我有幸和我爱的人一起长大，从青少年时期到现在，慢慢了解他们。
Of what kind person someone is, and getting to see them or getting to discuss or go through things together, you know, I think is I I feel like I'm biased because I've been able to grow up with the person that I love and like get to know them like through being literally a teenager to now.
所以当然，我们会改变、会成长，生活就是这样，但我依然觉得，至少你对一个人有足够的了解，能感受到一种纽带或联系。
So it's like, of course, we're going to change and we're going to grow, and life is like whatever, like I still feel like there's like a bond or connection that you feel like you know someone at least enough
当然。
Of course.
能和他们在一起感到安心。
To feel safe with them.
只要你处于一段关系中，就不可避免地会多少了解一个人。
You inevitably know someone a bit by just being a Of relationship with course.
但我认为，问题在于那种期望——我觉得，如果你总是说‘我必须完全了解你’，反而会窒息这段关系。
But I think it's the expectation of saying, I think I think you kind of you you suffocate a relationship if you're like saying, like, I need to know this.
我需要了解你所有这些事，我需要知道你过去的一切。
I need to know all this stuff about your I need to know everything about your past.
就像是，哦，
It's like Oh,
我明白你这么说的意思。
I see I see what you mean by that.
这和你没关系。
Has nothing to do with you.
对。
Right.
这简直就像是，我不知道，我有点觉得
It's literally like it's kind of, I don't know, I'm kind of
我懂。
I get that.
但我同时也觉得，如果你在一段关系中感到安全，那么我就希望你能告诉我你生活中的所有事。
But I also think that like if you feel safe in a relationship, then like, I I ever wanna be like, you have to tell me everything about your life.
更像是，你知道该问多少问题吗？
It's more like would you know how many questions to ask?
是的。
Yeah.
什么是
What is
？
it?
不，我只是说，如果你对某人感到安全，或者希望你对我足够安心，愿意分享。
No, I just mean more like, if you feel safe with somebody, or hopefully you feel safe enough with me that you wanna share.
这也暴露了你的不安全感。
It also reveals your own insecurity.
对。
Yeah.
如果你一直说，需要了解你过去的所有事情。
If you're constantly saying, need to know all this stuff about your past.
而且，我觉得一见到某人，就能大概知道这段关系会往哪个方向发展。
Also, kinda think the second you meet someone, kinda know which way the relationship's gonna go.
我觉得这完全是瞬间的事。
Like, I literally think that's an instant.
你觉得这是你特有的能力，还是每个人都这样？
Do you think you have a special ability to do that or everyone?
我觉得每个人都这样。
Think everybody does.
是的。
Yeah.
只是我们不去留意它吗？
And we just don't listen to it?
我觉得他们其实都有留意。
I think they do listen to it.
因为，比如当你和某人分手，或者发生什么事的时候，总会有那么一刻，你会想：我早知道会这样。
Because, like, when you like, I think when if you end up breaking up with someone or something happens, there's always that moment where go, I knew this was gonna happen.
我认为大多数人都是这样的。
I think most people do.
我知道，你也知道，你们一见面就能感觉到。
And I know and you I think you know it the second you meet them.
就像，你只是选择继续下去。
Like, and you just choose to go.
这不一定是错误的决定，但你知道的。
And it's not necessarily a bad decision, but you know.
你一直都知道。
You always know.
好吧，我要深入问一下，因为我很好奇。
What is it okay, I'm gonna push you on this because I'm interested.
当你有这种预感时
When you have this knowing
是的，我也是。
Yeah, me too.
对吧？
Right?
对你来说，这种感觉是什么样的？
What does it feel like to you?
是像‘嗯’这样的反应吗？
Is it like a Uh-huh.
还是一种身体上的感觉？
Or is it like a body based sensation?
那到底是什么？
What is that?
是的。
Yeah.
你可能会因为一种感受的组合而产生这种感觉。
You can get because you can have the combination of a feeling.
你可能会被某人吸引，同时又感到某种恐惧或类似的情绪。
You can get some like, you can have you can be, like, attracted to someone, and also there's, like, some, like, fear or something at the same time.
而这可能就是你最初被他们吸引的原因。
And it's like, oh, and that could be why you're attracted to them in the first place.
但你知道，这种恐惧最终会以某种方式表现出来。
But you know that fear will eventually have some they will do something to come outside.
因为你的身体对他们感到害怕。
For the reason your body is afraid for them.
我在某种程度上也同意这一点，因为我觉得，至少在我的个人经历中，有时人们在某些人面前会紧张，但我曾体验过一种感觉——当我意识到这个人就是我的对的人时，我并不感到紧张。
I kind of agree with that in some ways too because I think sometimes, at least in my personal experience, I've found that, you know, sometimes people kind of get nervous around people, but there's a certain feeling that I was able to experience when I knew that this is my person because I didn't I never I don't feel nervous around that.
我感到非常平静，非常安心，甚至觉得，哦，其实当我离开你时，我反而更紧张。
I feel really peaceful, and I feel really calm, and I feel like, oh, I actually feel more nervous when I'm away from you than
当我跟你在一起时。
when I'm with you.
这真的很暖心。
That's really sweet.
那时我就想，啊，这应该是个好迹象。
And that's when I was like, ah, can that's I a good sign.
这真是倾听我的身体的好方法。
That is a good listening to my, you know Body.
我们的直觉或身体，第一次见面是在试镜时，所以当时我本来就挺紧张的，但你确实让我感到平静。
Intuition or body or We first met in an audition, so so I was pretty nervous anyway, but you did make me feel calm.
你能告诉我，你是怎么让我感到平静的吗？
So Can you tell me how I made you feel calm?
就是因为你是个好人，让你让我感到舒适。
Just by being a nice person, you know, by making me feel comfortable.
我的意思是，就像要为一部大电影做化学测试一样。
I mean, like, it's like having to do a chemistry read for a big movie like that.
你会想，哦，你真的很想要这份工作，还有各种各样的因素，而那时真的非常美好。
It's like, oh, you know, you really want the job and all these kind of things, and yeah, was it was really lovely then.
我想聊聊那些我们发现关于伴侣的新事物、以全新视角看待伴侣的时刻。
I wanna talk about these moments where we see where we learn something new about a partner, where we see our partner in a new light.
电影里有一个场景，嗯。
There's this scene in the movie Mhmm.
我觉得这特别有共鸣，大概是因为我住在纽约。
That I find so relatable, probably because I live in New York.
艾玛和查理正在过马路。
Emma and Charlie, they're crossing the street.
一辆车差点撞到他们。
A car almost hits them.
艾玛对司机大发雷霆。
Emma goes off on the driver.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一句，我觉得当时是你有路权。
And by the way, I was like, it was your right of way.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you what I mean?
百分之百。
A 100%.
扔吧，是的。
Throw it Yeah.
我要警告你一下。
I'm gonna give you a warning.
谢谢
Thank
谢谢你做了而不是我。
you for doing it and not me.
看着Emma，心想：等等，为什么？
Is looking at Emma like Wait, why?
为什么？
Why?
因为Charlie看着Emma，心想：这女人是谁？
Because Charlie's looking at Emma like, who is this woman?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他非常非常敏感。
I mean, he's he's he's very he's very sensitive.
他对这一点有点过于敏感了。
He's a little oversensitive to that.
我的意思是，这正是它的幽默所在。
I mean, it is kinda what the what the humor of it is.
因为电影里有很多地方，他都在做出反应。
Because there's so I mean, so many parts of the movie, he's reacting.
我想，当你陷入情绪漩涡时，总会觉得一切都疯狂了，比如天哪，她换了顶帽子。
And I I guess it's how you always, when you're spiraling, suddenly everything seems crazy, and it's like, oh my god, like, she's wearing a different hat.
她疯了。
She's crazy.
但是
But
这个场景出现的那一刻，感觉他看到了她另外一面，而他因为艾玛此时已经透露了秘密，所以以不同的方式解读了这一切。但我觉得我能感同身受，虽然没有这么戏剧化，但在我每一段关系中，都曾有过这样的时刻：对方做了一件事，我突然不得不重新调整对他们的认知，而这并不一定是负面的。
the moment this scene felt like, you know, he's seen this other aspect of her, and he's interpreting it differently because Emma at this point has revealed the secret, but I felt like I related to it because in not such a dramatic fashion, but in almost every relationship I've been in, I've had this moment where the person will do something, and suddenly I have to kind of recalibrate what I thought I knew about them, and it doesn't have to be in a bad way.
我想知道，你有没有这种共鸣？
I'm curious if this resonates.
你有没有过这样的时刻，和你爱的人——伴侣、家人或朋友——相处时，他们做了一件事，让你突然以全新的眼光看待他们？
If you've had a moment with someone you love, partner, family member, friend, where they do something and you see them in a different way.
我觉得这就像你长大后，开始不再仅仅把父母看作父母。
I think it happens like when you grow up and you start stop seeing your parents as just your parents.
完全对。
Totally.
而且
And
他们只是两个相遇并生下了你的人，你知道的？
just as human beings that met and, like, had you, you know?
这种认知的转变，或者说，不管那是什么，是的。
It's kinda like when that perception of or I don't know, whatever it is Yeah.
这种感觉会渐渐消失，你会意识到，你们只是普通人。
Kind of fades away, and you go, oh, you guys are just people.
这种情况会发生，有些人会早一些，有些人则在生命的不同阶段才会发生，但真正理解你的父母，不是以他们作为你父母的身份来看待。
And it happens, know, it's like for some people it happens younger, you know, it happens at different, you know, stages of your life, but really getting to understand your parents but not from the context of them being your parents.
让他们去做
And make them do
没错。
no wrong.
是的。
Yeah.
是的，是的，就是你脑海中那种对父母的观念或理想，然后真正看到他们作为普通人的一面，同时也对他们作为人类给予理解和宽容。
Yeah, yeah, or whatever that idea or ideal of a parent is that you have in your head, and just seeing them for the people that they are and also trying to have grace for them as human beings, too.
记住，他们也只是普通人，你知道的？
And remember that they're just, you know, they're just people as well, you know?
他们并不是什么超级英雄之类的。
They're like not superheroes and whatever.
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人类。
Human beings.
是的。
Yeah.
你记得有没有过那样一个时刻，突然对你父母有了这种领悟？
Do you remember a moment when you had that realization about your parents?
即使是很小的瞬间，你记得什么时候这种感觉出现过吗？
It can be even small, but do you remember a time when that occurred to you?
我想大概是在我搬去洛杉矶的时候，你知道的，我开始工作，成为那个养家的人，我觉得这种角色转变让我的父母面对了很多事情，因为现在你和父母之间的关系发生了变化，确实如此。
I think think probably like when, you know, just moving to LA, and, you know, and me having to work and be the one that was working, and I think that kind of dynamic shift brought up a lot of things for my parents because now it's like a you are now in a different dynamic with your parents Certainly.
而如何应对这种变化，我想那就是其中一个瞬间，天啊。
And how you navigate that I think was was one of those moments like, shit.
好吧。
Okay.
这不一样了，因为我不再是个小孩子了，尽管从技术上讲我依然是。
This is this is different because I'm not just like a little kid anymore, although I technically am.
是的。
Yeah.
我现在做着一份非常成熟的工作，你知道的。
I'm doing, you know, a very mature, you know, job now.
我有朝九晚五的工作，每天早上上班，晚上回家，但我也还得听父母的话，是的。
I have a nine to five, and go to work every morning and I come home at night, but I also still have to, like, listen to my parents, and Yeah.
他们还得告诉我该做什么，你知道的，诸如此类的事。
They have to tell me put up at You know, whatever.
所以你会觉得，哇，哇。
So that, you're like, woah, woah.
现在这感觉很奇怪，你知道的，你要试着去理解这一切，确实如此。
That's weird now, you know, and trying to, I don't know, just just like wrap your head around that a little It does
需要很多努力去应对。
take a lot to navigate.
是的，当然。
Yeah, for sure.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我们有一个《纽约时报》的专栏，叫《微小爱情故事》。
We have this column by The New York Times called Tiny Love Stories.
好的。
Okay.
这些是简短的、一百字左右的爱情故事，我们挑选了一些非常引起共鸣的。
These are short, 100 word love stories, and we've chosen some that feel very resonant
与好的。
with the Okay.
这些都是真实的故事吗？
Are they real love stories?
是的，都是真实的。
They are.
是的，没错。
Yeah, yeah.
这太离谱了。
It's crazy.
这些故事都是真实的。
They're true.
它们都是真实发生的。
They are true.
人们会随机把这些故事投稿过来。
People just randomly send them in.
对，都是大家自愿分享的。
Yeah, voluntarily.
哇哦。
Wow.
这真的是很勇敢的举动。
This is a brave thing.
确实是件很勇敢的事。
It is a brave thing.
这是一件勇敢的事。
It is
一件勇敢的事。
a brave thing.
所以我要给你其中一份。
So I'm going to hand you one of these.
你会阅读它们，然后我们做出回应。
You'll read them, and then we'll respond to them.
我们会对它们做出反应。
We'll react to them.
这样 okay 吗？
How does that Okay.
首先，我们有你，赞达亚。
First up, we have you, Zendaya.
请说出标题和作者的名字。
And please say the title and the author's name.
好的。
Okay.
首先是最丑的，然后是美丽，作者是阿里·佩特里拉。
First The Ugly, Then The Beauty by Ali Petrilla.
我们在一个应用程序上认识的。
We met on an app.
我选了我最喜欢的啤酒厂作为我们的第一次约会地点。
I chose my favorite brewery for our first date.
当他只点水喝，而我喝了好几杯啤酒时，我追问了下去。
When he ordered only water to drink while I enjoyed a few beers, I prodded.
他毫无犹豫，也不感到羞耻，坦白了自己的心魔。
With neither hesitation nor shame, he laid out his demons.
他已经戒除海洛因和酒精成瘾四年了。
Four years in recovery from heroin and alcohol addiction.
然后我讲出了我的故事。
Then I laid out mine.
十年从饮食失调中康复。
Ten years recovering from eating disorders.
十五分钟内，我们就知道了彼此所有的不堪。
Within fifteen minutes, we knew all of each other's ugly parts.
我们剩下的时间都用来发现彼此美好的一面。
We spent the rest of our time together discovering the beautiful ones.
这就是
That's what's
给你的？
for you?
我觉得这真的很美，你知道的。
I think that's really beautiful, you know.
关键是，每个人的爱情故事都不同，有些人觉得分享很自在，愿意展现脆弱，觉得一开始就坦诚相待很重要。
Here's the thing, it's like everybody's love story is different, and some people feel comfortable sharing and feel like they can be vulnerable or feel like it's important for them to lay their cards out on the table right away.
有些人则对此感到不适，有些人需要时间慢慢建立信任，打破心防。但在这种独特的情况下，这两个人似乎都成功了——他们都能平等分享对自己重要的事，这种坦诚让他们彼此联结、理解，或许也在许多方面帮助了对方，我觉得这真的很美。
Some people are more uncomfortable with that, and some people it takes time for you to, you know, build the trust and break the walls down, but in a unique situation where it seems like this has worked for both of these people where they feel like they were both able to share something equally of, you know, importance to them, and that was, you know, allowed them to bond and see each other and maybe help each other in many ways, then I feel like that's really beautiful.
我希望他们幸福。
And I hope they're happy.
他们其实已经结婚了。
They're actually married.
我们得到了
We got
这个更新。
that update.
哦，太好了。
Oh, wonderful.
你觉得在太早的时候透露太多关于自己的信息吗？
Do you think there's such a thing as disclosing too much of yourself too early?
是的。
Yes.
对，我确信。
Yeah, I'm sure.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
强烈回应。
Strongly responded.
告诉我关于这个。
Tell me about this.
不，不。
No, no.
我是在说这样的事。
I'm saying such a thing.
那是某人的故事。
That's someone's story.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，我第一次见某人时的感受是否一定取决于那个人以及你认识谁，有时候需要时间才能了解一个人？
I think do I necessarily feel like maybe the first time I meet someone depends on the person and who you know, and sometimes it takes time to get to know somebody?
这非常控制欲强。
It's very controlling.
这全是操纵。
It's all manipulative.
你是？
You are?
对。
Right.
是的。
Yes.
等等，能再跟我详细说说这个吗？
Wait, so tell me more about this.
你刚才反应这么强烈。
You had such a strong response.
是的，我觉得那些擅长这么做的人，不是所有人，但绝大多数在还没真正认识你的时候就向你灌输太多私人信息的人。
Yeah, I feel like everybody who does that well not everybody, but the vast majority of people who want to kind of overload you with kind of too personal information when you haven't really met them.
这就像强迫你进入某种立场，让你不得不听他们说。
It's like kind of because it forces you into a certain position, like, to listen to them.
然后你就觉得，呃，
And you're like, like,
我太好奇了，那种立场是什么？
I'm so What is that position?
我怕我说出来听起来太苛刻了。
You can't I'm just going to sound so judgy.
没关系。
It's okay.
我后悔了
I regret
已经后悔了。
it already.
但我确实觉得这是一种操纵行为。
But I do think it's manipulative.
有时候你能看出来有人在这么做，但有时候在派对上，当某人这样做时，你很难分辨，因为根本说不清，唉，随便吧。
Sometimes someone's you can tell when someone's doing it, but sometimes if you're at a party and someone's doing something, it's kind of because you can't really tell like, all right, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
快走吧。
Get out of here.
所以你觉得这是一种迫使你不得不接受的状态？
So you think it's it's putting you into a position where you have to receive?
是的。
Yeah.
他们可能只是想聊聊。
They might just want to talk.
对，对，但对他们有用。
Yeah, yeah, but it worked for them.
对，这正是我想说的。
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
这招对他们有效。
It worked for them.
哦，不，我不是在说这些家伙。
Oh, no, I'm not saying about these guys.
这非常不错。
This was very nice.
是的。
Yes.
他们确实会。
They do.
而且again On
And again On
在约会时。
a date.
我刚才说的是，他们结婚了。
I was talking about They're married.
自豪。
Proud.
是的。
Yes.
好吧，你是在派对上谈论这个。
Okay, you're talking about it in a party.
对。
Yeah.
你觉得自己是那种如果
Do you feel like you're the kind of person If
在约会时，完全是另一回事。
it's on a date, totally different thing.
抱歉，我刚才在想派对的事。
Sorry, I was thinking about a party.
我现在明白了，这是爱，完全如此。
I realize now it's love Totally.
故事
Story
告诉我你在约会时会怎么处理这种情况。
Tell me about how you'd handle it on a date.
如果有人像在讲述一个小小的爱情故事一样向你敞开心扉。
If someone was opening up like they are in this tiny love story.
是的。
Yeah.
这要看情况。
It depends.
就像如果有人，嗯。
It's like if someone yeah.
敞开心扉并不仅仅是敞开心扉那么简单。
It's not just that the opening up is not just opening up.
我觉得这其中总是有更多内涵，因为我认为，刚认识一个人时，对他人保持警惕是很自然的事。
I think some there's always so much more to it because I think most I think it's a natural thing to be, like, wary of other people when you first met them.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
所以，我不知道。
And so so I don't know.
但这会很有趣。
But it'd be interesting.
有时候这种事发生在我身上，有时候你会深深地被触动，因为有人觉得，哦，我在你身上看到了某种东西，你就是那个我觉得我会深深爱上的人。
Sometimes that that's happened to me before, and sometimes you're, like, absolutely, like, so profoundly moved that someone's thought, like, oh, I see something in you, which you are the person who I feel like I'm gonna love to.
我相信你。
I trust you.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果他们只是对每个人都敞开心扉，我就只是觉得，
But if they're just opening up to everybody, I'm just like,
我要
I'm gonna
有一个选择。
have an option.
罗伯特，我们为你准备了一个小小的爱情故事。
Robert, we have a tiny love story for you.
如果你不介意的话，请读一下标题和作者姓名，然后我们来讨论。
If you don't mind reading this, the title and the author's name, and we'll discuss.
《爱的逻辑》作者：杰克·西蒙斯。
There's a Logic to Love by Jack Simmons.
作为一名工程师，我相信问题都有逻辑的解决方案。
As an engineer, I believe problems have logical solutions.
为了解决我的感情问题，我需要把它结构化。
To solve my relationship problem, I needed to structure it.
我站在男友的白板前，手里拿着马克笔，看着我画好的流程图。
I was standing at my boyfriend's whiteboard with a marker and a flowchart I'd drawn.
我问他问题，并把他的回答记录在图表上。
I asked him questions, tracing his answers down the chart.
他很开心，但不确定自己是否能爱上我。
He was happy but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me.
图表显示该分手，所以我们分了。
The chart said break up, so we did.
我回到他身边，承诺会爱自己到足以代替我们两个人。
I went back to him, promising to love myself enough for both of us.
这没有奏效。
It didn't work.
我们再次分手了。
We broke up again.
爱很简单。
Love is simple.
图表和你的心必须指向同一个答案。
The flowchart and your heart must lead to the same answer.
留下。
Stay.
有意思。
Interesting.
这跟我原本以为的发展方向不一样。
It's not where I thought it was gonna go.
我知道。
I know.
对吧？
Right?
好的。
Okay.
那你跟我说说那个反应吧。
Well, tell me about tell me about that reaction.
那么，他们是不是在说，这个特定的流程图，是的。
Well, are they saying that, like, this particular flowchart Yes.
一直回去复合吗？
Kept going back to break up?
是的。
Yes.
为了让它奏效，终点不能是分手。
And in order for it to work, the endpoint can't be break up.
必须是留下吗？
It has to be stay?
我觉得流程图上写的是，对他们来说，分手。
I think the flowchart said for them, break up.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们确实分手了，但后来又无视流程图重新走到了一起。
And they did, but then they came back together ignoring the flowchart.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后就不成功了。
And then it didn't work.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以他意思是我们应该倾听
And so what he's saying is we should listen
遵循流程图。
To the flowchart.
去
To
遵循流程图。
the flowchart.
这正是我的意思。
That's what I'm saying.
它必须写着‘保持’。
It has to say stay.
是的。
Yes.
它必须写着‘你得分手’。
It has to say you have break up.
嗯，听起来他的伴侣最初
Well, it sounds like his partner initially
已经说过这个了。
Said that already.
想着：‘我要忽略这个流程图的废话，然后无视你一直纠结这个流程图，希望你能醒悟过来。’
Thought and said like, I'm gonna let this flowchart shit go, and then I'm gonna ignore that you've drilled on this flowchart and hope you come to your senses.
抛开这一切的流程图，我
Beyond the flowchart of it all, I
会说。
will say.
哦，他还说他很开心，但不确定自己是否能爱上我。
Oh, well, he also said he was happy but wasn't sure he could fall in love with me.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，抱歉。
Oh, sorry.
我错过了
I missed
那一部分。
that bit.
这很难
That's a hard
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
有点
Kind of
什么现在听起来合理呢
What what's making sense to
你现在的想法是什么？
you now?
我的意思是，如果有人说‘我不确定自己能不能爱上你’，我会觉得，你不如别说了。
I mean, if someone says that I wasn't I'm not sure I can fall in love with you, I'm like, just keep it to yourself.
你应该说，‘我有个海外的工作机会。’
You need to say, I've got a job overseas.
对不起，我刚才说乱了，但你真的很棒。
To go and Sorry, check my but I you're amazing.
我必须得走了。
You have to I have to go.
你就像在说，别再用图表了。
You're like, no more charts.
我也不太确定流程图是什么。
I'm not entirely sure what a flowchart is.
天哪。
Oh my god.
现在说出来了。
That comes out now
你居然不知道流程图是什么。
that you don't know what a flowchart is.
比如当你跟着线条走，比如顶部C需要在游泳池里找到她妈妈？
Like when you, like, follow the line to, like, top C needs to find her mom in the swimming pool?
那到底该去哪儿找呢？
Like, where do you find?
这很酷。
That's cool.
这是个迷宫吗？
Is that a maze?
迷宫。
Maze.
好的。
Okay.
所以不是。
So no.
所以不，不完全是。
So no, not exactly.
流程图非常不同。
Flowchart Very is Very different.
但它们有一些共同的组成部分。
But they share some components.
我们给他们一点帮助吧。
Let's throw them a bone.
是的。
Yeah.
流程图，我在想，什么
A flowchart I'm like, what
什么是流程图？
is a flowchart?
视觉学习。
Visual learning.
视觉学习就是，如果这样，那么那样。
Visual learning, it's like, if this, then this.
是的。
Yeah.
当他开始画的时候，那是一个图表。
As he started drawing it It's a chart.
他本该意识到这有多难看。
He should have realized how unattractive that is.
我觉得人们会制作
Well, I feel like people make
为人们做很多利弊清单，这和流程图很接近。
a lot of pro and cons lists for people, which is adjacent to flowchart.
你有没有过这样的情况：对某人或某事、某个决定感到非常不确定，以至于觉得有必要做点什么？
Have you ever been in a situation where you're so unsure about someone or something, some decision that you felt the need?
你可以用流程图或者利弊清单。
You could have used a flowchart or a procon list.
我觉得我在感情上没用过，但我确实用过一些图表来做决定。
I don't think I've used it in like a romantic situation, but I've definitely used some charts to make some decisions.
我是处女座。
I'm a Virgo.
这就对了。
There you go.
明白吗？
Okay?
不是
Not
不是用图表，但我确实做过一些利弊清单。
like a chart, but I definitely did some pro con lists.
真的吗？
Really?
当然了。
Oh, for sure.
这让你感到惊讶吗？
Is this surprising to you?
这可是很平常的做法。
That's like a normal thing to do.
确实如此。
It is.
如果好处多于坏处，你就会想，好吧。
If the pros outweighs the cons, you're like, okay.
罗伯特，你是怎么做决定的？
How do you make decisions, Robert?
摇摇头，然后看看哪个更大，那个和那个。
Shake your head around, and then you see which is bigger, the s one and they.
你就像一个魔法八球。
You're like a magic eight ball.
这真的很有意思。
That's really fun.
这其实就是它在《它》里的样子。
It's literally how it is in It
不过，这可能会对人的头部造成很大伤害。
could be very damaging to one's head, though.
我不知道，这只是轻轻一晃。
I don't know, it's a light shake.
只是轻轻一晃？
It's a light shake?
就只是轻微的一晃？
Just a tiny light shake?
轻微的一晃。
Little light shake.
是的，不，我确实如此。
Yeah, no, I definitely yeah.
因为问题就在于，我觉得我其实很不确定。
Because I'm that's the thing is I feel like I'm very don't know.
我经常对很多事情过度思考。
I overthink about a lot of things.
所以有时候，你会一下子把所有想法都倾泻出来。
So sometimes, like, you just pour out with all these thoughts.
你会想，好吧。
You're like, okay.
也许我只是需要
Well, maybe I just need
把它写下来
to write it
写下来。
down.
所以，是的，有时候我发现这样很有帮助，尽管可能不适用于这个特定的情况。
So, yeah, sometimes that's I found that helpful, maybe not in this particular situation.
不适用于这个
Not in this
特定的场合。
particular right.
但我认为，你知道，沟通是开放的，答案其实已经很明显了，就是好吧，也许这里并不是我该待的地方。
But but I think, you know, that there is an open communication, and the answer was kind of there, and it's like, okay, well, maybe this isn't where I need to be.
我实际上认为这回到你真正理解一个人内心真相的能力上。
I actually think this goes back to your understanding of really tuning in to the truth of someone.
这是他们用来弄清楚自己关系结果的方式。
This is their way to figure out, you know, the outcome of their relationship.
他们不得不分手，但他们没有倾听。
They had to break up, but they didn't listen.
literally，当你在画流程图的时候，你知道的。
Literally, look, when you're drawing a flowchart, you know.
是的
Yeah.
好的
Okay.
这公平。
That's fair.
不
Not
仅仅
only are
你不仅在画流程图，还把它展示给你的伴侣。
you drawing the flowchart, but then you're showing it to your partner.
你在试图引发他们的反应。
You're trying to get a reaction.
你所做的一切都是想让对方说，我爱你。
You're trying all you're trying to do is say, like, I want you to say you love me.
完全正确。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
关键是。
The thing.
你这么做唯一的理由就是，你知道他不会这么做。
That's the only reason you're doing it, and you know he's not gonna do it.
你知道他们不会这么做。
Like, you know they're not gonna do it.
是的。
Yeah.
至少可以说这很公平。
If nothing else say that's fair.
是的。
Yeah.
我也很高兴我们能说明白什么是流程图，尽管我不确定你是否真的明白
I also am happy that we could tell what a flowchart is even though I'm not so sure you really
我知道。
I know.
当我跑的时候，它就有点进去了
It kind of went in when I ran
了
out of
但你要知道，任何关系中只要开始需要拿出图表，那就已经完了。
But you're just like any chart Any chart you start to have to bring out a chart in a relationship is over already.
好吧。
Okay.
就是这样。
There you go.
公平地说，我觉得查理会是个喜欢用流程图的人。
To be fair, I think Charlie would be a flowchart guy.
他试图证明自己确实是在写优点
He's trying to justify he's definitely writing pros
和缺点。
and cons.
所以他一直在想，我觉得他确实就是这样做的，我的意思是，电影的核心就在这里。
So he's, like, thinking, like, I think well, he kinda he literally kinda does I mean, that's literally where the movie is.
是的。
Yeah.
他的优缺点清单？
His pros and cons list?
我觉得这只是在把事情列出来。
I think it's just drawing things down.
就是感觉像这样。
It just feels like yeah.
这花了不少功夫
This was a lot of effort
我们对流程图提出了更多问题，我意识到这里的内容非常丰富。
for We've Barry way more questions about flowcharts, and I'm realizing, like, there's a lot here.
内容非常丰富。
It's very rich.
这部电影讲的是婚姻。
This movie's about marriage.
你们两人都处于非常公开的关系中。
You both are in very public relationships.
最近关于你们的婚姻有很多猜测。
There has been recently much speculation about marriage for you.
作为记者，如果我不问一下，那就失职了——你们是否有什么想说的，关于人们好奇你们是否结婚？我顺便提一下，如果有什么消息要发布，或许《纽约时报》的《现代爱情》播客是个合适的地方。
I'd be remiss not to ask, as a journalist, if there's anything you want to say about people wondering about whether you're married, and I will say, just a small plug, you know, if there was a place to say some news, it might be the Modern Love Podcast for The New York Times.
我只是觉得，对我来说，人们对我的私人关系有一种拟社会式的投入，我理解这一点，我也知道我是公众人物，他也是，而且我们是在众人面前一起成长的，还拍过彼此相爱的电影。
Well, I just feel like for me, it's like there is a level of like a parasocial investment in my personal relationship, which I understand, and I do know that, like, I am aware that I'm a public person, and so is he, and I'm also aware that we've grown up in front of people, and we've done movies where we fall in love with each other.
所以我真的理解这一点，我不想轻率地回应‘别管我的私事’之类的说法。
So it's like, I really do understand that, and I don't want to dismiss that, like, stay out of my business or whatever.
但在很多方面，我也是一个非常注重隐私的人，我会尽力为自己和他保留一些私人空间。
But in a lot of ways, I also am a very private person, and I try my best to be able to have things for myself and for him as well.
因此，我们总体上尽量不向世界隐藏自己，但希望为彼此保留一些东西，以便我们能独自和家人、亲人保持那份喜悦。
And so we do our best in general to not hide ourselves from the world, but just to, I think, preserve things for ourselves so that we can maintain that joy just within ourselves and our loved ones and our family.
所以，这基本上就是我想说的：我听到了，但我也有自己的界限，知道哪些话题我想提起和讨论，哪些又愿意分享，你知道的？
So that's kind of like my broad way of just saying I hear it, but I also like my own little boundaries of what I like to bring up and talk about, but then also what I'm also willing to share, you know?
我觉得这是对‘不予置评’最美好的表达方式。
I think that's the most beautiful way to say no comment.
明白。
Know.
不。
No.
我的意思是，我只是在诚实地表达，当然。
I mean, I'm just I'm speaking honestly Of course.
从这个角度来看，是的，我只是努力在中间找到平衡。
From that perspective, but yeah, I just, you know, I just try to find the balance in the middle there.
明白了。
Understood.
评论？
Comment?
我真的是这么想的，那就是准备。
I I could I was literally like, that's prep.
真的很棒。
It was really good.
而且这是真的。
And it was true.
是的。
Yeah.
我发誓我没有规划过这个。
I'm swear not I didn't chart this.
我只是在回答你的问题，因为我不知道你是否会问到这个，所以
This is just just answering your question because I didn't know if you would answer, like, ask that, so
我想感谢你告诉我，是的，先生。
think, I thank you for telling Yes, sir.
当然。
Of course.
我想让我们停在一边。
I want to land us on the side.
我们一直在讨论真正了解我们所爱的人意味着什么，当我们发现并不如想象中那么了解对方时会发生什么。
We've been talking about what it means to really know someone we love, what happens when we don't know as much as we thought.
所以我想以这个想法作为结尾。
So I want to close on this idea.
我想知道你最近是否经历过这样的时刻，嗯。
I wonder if you could share a time recently Mhmm.
你感受到生命中某个人深深理解你、真正看见真实的你。
Where you felt very known by someone in your life, very seen for who you are.
这是一个真诚的问题，我知道，但我希望你能认真地回应我。
This is an earnest question, I know, but I wonder if you could humor me with an earnest answer.
祝你好运。
Good luck.
你得试试。
You gotta try.
你得试试。
You gotta try.
被深深理解和看见。
Very known and seen.
我的意思是，很多方面。
I mean, a lot.
我觉得我的伴侣在很多方面比我更了解我自己。
I feel like my partner in a lot of ways knows me better than I know myself.
嗯。
Well
但，不是那样的。
but, like no.
这就到了她对很多事情几乎有某种通灵能力的地步。
It's just kind of to the point where she'll kinda have, like, quite psychic abilities about things.
但是
But
这感觉好吗？
Does that feel good?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
是吗？
Yeah?
是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
很好。
Good.
她并没有
She doesn't have
一个选择。
a choice.
不，这根本不是这么回事。
No, like, that doesn't even make that up.
哦，我的孩子也是。
Oh, my kid as well.
就像，我不知道她是否也这么了解我。
Like, it's kind of, well, I don't know if she knows me as well.
很酷，因为有一个答案，还有一个井。
Is cool because there's an answer, and then there's a well.
我的意思是，总是只有两个。
Well, I mean, always just two.
硬币总有另一面。
There's always another side to the coin.
当然。
Of course.
但那个‘是的’。
But the yeah.
看到它时，那是另一种‘是的’。
Seeing it's a different yeah.
当你的孩子看着它时，这是一种不同的认知方式，因为他们对你的认知是纯粹的，显然他们对你有各种期待。
When when your kid is looking at it, it's a different type of knowing as well because it's it's knowing without any and, obviously, they have desires from you.
但当他们只是出于纯粹的好奇心时，这很有趣。
But it's funny when they're just it's just pure curiosity.
而且，你知道，当你刚孕育他们时，他们对你没有任何问题，这很棒。
And, you know, when you conceive it, you know, don't have they don't have a single issue with you, which is great.
真让人解脱。
How freeing.
太好了。
It's so nice.
他们并不生气。
They're not pissed.
他们不生气。
They're not mad.
虽然有时候他们会，他们会哭。
Although sometimes they are, they're crying.
对吧？
Right?
摇摆。
Swing.
就是这样。
That's it.
我觉得我曾经拥有的这种关系真让人难过。
I'm like, this kind of relationship I had is sad.
不过，它可能会比摇摆变得更复杂，对吧？
It will probably get more complicated than swing, though, right?
可能会吧。
It might.
也许吧。
It might.
可能吧。
Maybe.
你上一次感到被理解是什么时候？
What about you last time you felt known?
我觉得我真的很被我的伴侣、朋友和家人理解。
I feel like I feel really I feel really known by, like, my partner, by, like, my friends, by my family.
我觉得围绕在我身边的那些核心人物，当我跟他们在一起时，我最开心。那时我完全不担心自己要说些什么。
Like, I do feel like the core people around me, I feel very I think that's when I'm happiest is when I'm with all of those people.
我只是觉得我不用太费心思去琢磨说了什么，就像现在这样。
It's just like I feel like I'm not thinking so much and, you know, trying to think about what I'm gonna say before I say it, like, now.
但你明白我的意思吧？
But you know what I mean?
就是你完全不用伪装，他们了解你、看见你，让你感到安心，而且他们看到的我，既是现在的成年人，也是他们的小妹妹。
It's like you just, you know, they know you, they see you, and you feel safe, and you feel like and also, it's just like they see me as the adult I am now, but, like, my siblings also see me as their little sister.
所有过去的我，是的。
All the past versions of me Yeah.
过去。
The past.
层层叠叠地堆在一起。
Stacked on top of each other.
没错。
Exactly.
他们给予我的爱、关怀、保护，或者任何形式的对待，都依然非常真实。
And and and that love and that care or that protection or that whatever that looks like from them is still very, very true.
你可以。
You can
感受到，你知道吗？
feel You know?
所以，这很特别。
So, that's special.
罗伯特·帕丁森、赞达亚，非常感谢你们参与这次对话，有时它甚至像一场辩论。
Robert Pattinson, Zendaya, thank you so much for this conversation that was, at times, a debate.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
我很感激。
I appreciate it.
同意
Agree with
你。
you.
最终，他同意你的观点。
Ultimately, he agree with you.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
他真的
He really
非常感谢。
appreciate it.
谢谢。
Thank you.
《现代爱情》团队包括艾米·珀尔、戴维斯·兰德、埃莉萨·古铁雷斯、艾米莉·兰、珍·波扬、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.
本集由里瓦·戈德堡和艾莉莎·古铁雷斯制作。
This episode was produced by Riva Goldberg and Alyssa Gutierrez.
本集由林恩·利维和珍·波扬剪辑。
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
汤姆·霍珀在奇科特工作室录制了本集，我们的混音师是丹尼尔·拉米雷斯。
Tom Hopper recorded this episode at Quixote Studios, and our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
我们得到了宝拉·纽多夫、索菲·埃里克森、布鲁克·明特斯、汤姆·麦克埃利、尼克·克劳斯、杰克逊·蒙特梅耶和凯莱布·哈斯的制作协助。
We had production help from Paula Newdorf, Sophie Erickson, Brooke Minters, Tom McEvilly, Nick Krause, Jackson Montemayer, and Caleb Haas.
本集的原创音乐由艾莉西亚·贝托普、黛安·王和丹·鲍威尔创作。
Original music in this episode by Alicia Beitoop, Diane Wong, and Dan Powell.
丹还为本节目创作了主题曲。
Dan also composed our theme music.
《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯负责编辑，米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目的主编。
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
如果您想向《纽约时报》投稿一篇散文或是一则微型爱情故事，投稿说明已放在我们的节目简介中。
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
我是安娜·马丁。
I'm Anna Martin.
感谢大家的收听。
Thanks for listening.
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