#1001 - 瑞安·霍利德 - 斯多葛主义关于如何变得智慧的教诲

现场演出进行得怎么样？上次我们聊到哦，我们在讨论即将到来的现场演出。

How did the live shows go? The last time we were talking Oh. We were discussing upcoming live shows.

是啊。我记得当时我要在澳大利亚做两场，你给了我建议。你说你以前也试过不用讲稿。通常活动演讲时，他们不希望你只是上去讲话，而是希望有个正式的演示。

Yeah. I think it was I was doing two in Australia, and you gave me this advice. You were like, well, you told me that you'd done it with no nos. And usually, like, when you do talks at events, like, they they don't want you to just go up and give a speech. They want, like, a presentation.

但这次情况不同。所以我得想办法不用讲稿完成，这就像...给自己设定随机挑战挺好的，选个你擅长且做过很多次的事情，然后故意用困难的方式去完成。

But these were this was different. So, yeah, I had to figure out how to do it with no no notes, which was it was in like, it it's good to pick arbitrary challenges and take something that you're good at, that you've done a lot of times, and just figure out a way to do it the hard way.

嗯。最近有什么新鲜事？

Yeah. What's new?

是啊。所以我得从头开始重新设计。很有挑战性但很棒。其实马克在冥想课里说过个有趣的事，练习用非惯用手握缰绳。

Yeah. And so I had to sort of reinvent it from scratch. It was challenging, but good. It's actually funny. In Mark's release meditations, he talks about practicing holding the reins with your nondominant hand.

嗯嗯。就像这样——你习惯怎么做？通常怎么做？然后怎么强迫自己不用喜欢的方式去做？

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so just like, what what's the way that you're comfortable doing it? What's the way you normally do it? And then how do you force yourself to do it not the way that you like to do it?

还要强迫自己在2000人的大场面面前，用不自在的方式表演。这...你知道，完全是另一回事。

And to force yourself to do it in front of the way you're not comfortable doing it in front of 2,000 people huge fucking audience. Is a is a you know, it's a whole thing.

难度升级。对。对。我一直想尝试做一期播客，由别人为我安排一位神秘嘉宾。是的。就坐在我对面，而我完全不知道对方是谁。

Difficulty plus. Yeah. Yeah. I've always thought about doing a a podcast episode with a guest that somebody had organized for me Yes. And sat down opposite me, and I didn't know who it was.

没错。然后我得在不打破第四面墙的情况下完成这期节目——假装知道他们是谁，同时试图挖掘出这到底是怎么回事。这位心理学家、运动员、教练、训练师，你他妈到底是干什么的？还要确保不会搞砸整期节目。我一直觉得这会是个有趣的挑战。

Yes. And I had to try and do an episode without breaking the fourth wall that I didn't know who they were and see if I could excavate what the fuck is going on here. Who is this psychologist, athlete, coach, trainer, like, what the fuck are you? And and do it without, like, destroying the episode. I always thought that would be, like, a fun challenge.

其实你之所以人为给自己设置挑战，是因为生活根本不在乎你的计划。它从不按你的规则出牌。比如几周前我本该在肯塔基州做个演讲。本来计划白天飞过去，晚上开始演讲。

Well and and the reason you challenge yourself artificially is that life doesn't really care about your plans. Doesn't play by your rules. So I I had a talk I was supposed to do in Kentucky, like, a couple weeks ago. And so I was supposed to fly in. I had all day, and then I would do the talk at night.

结果我九点到机场，航班先是延误三十分钟，又三十分钟，最后彻底乱套。经过一系列复杂又昂贵的行程调整后，我终于落地坐上车。那时已经迟到了，主办方一直在拖延时间，全场观众都等着。

And then, you know, I get to the airport at nine, and it's, like, thirty minutes late, thirty minutes late, thirty it's starting to get crazy. And some incredibly complicated, very expensive travel adjustments later, I land, and I'm in the car. Like, it's I'm already late, so they've pushed it. They've they've been stalling. Everyone's there.

所有人都到齐了，我是最后一个演讲者。我发信息说：'刚落地，还有十二分钟就到，一定准时赶到'。

Everyone's there, and I'm the last speaker. And I'm I'm, you know, I'm texting them, and and I go, okay. Like, I just landed. I'm I'm twelve minutes away. I will be there.

我说会跑着上台，他们回复：'太好了，我们等你。你的幻灯片呢？' 我愣住了：'什么意思？'

I will run up and go on, and and they they go, okay. That's awesome. We're waiting for you. Where are your slides? And I go, what do you mean?

我明明记得昨天就发过去了，你们肯定收到了。但我还是立刻重新发了链接：'这是幻灯片链接，再发一遍备用'。他们说：'好的，太棒了'。

Like, I I know for a fact they came in yesterday, so you should definitely have them. But I'm like, here they are again. I'm like texting here here's the link to the here's the dropout links to the slides again. And they're like, okay. Awesome.

然后呢，你知道，他们到了。还剩七分钟。对，七分钟。他们...我打开车门，然后我就跑上楼去了。

And then so, you know, they get there. Seven minutes to go. Yes. Seven. They I opened the door the car, and I'm, you know, running upstairs.

我提着行李箱往上走。快到了，然后他们给我别麦克风的时候说，你没有幻灯片对吧？我就想，难道没人沟通过吗？但我现在非常确定你们至少七分钟前就拿到幻灯片了。

I'm carrying my suitcase up up to the thing. I'm getting there, and and then as they're miking me up, they go, and you don't have slides. Right? It's like, is no one talking to each other? But, like like, now I know for a fact that you've had the slides for at least seven minutes.

你知道吗？所以...而且台上还有个乐队在表演拖延时间，因为像是那种老派...对对。然后那家伙说，好吧，乐队会先演奏铁娘子的《午夜两分钟》前二十秒，接着就轮到你。

You know? So so and and there's, like, a band on stage performing that's stalling because it's like a sort of Old old Yeah. Yeah. And the guy goes, okay. So the band's gonna play the first twenty seconds of two minutes to midnight by Iron Maiden, then you're up.

我说行吧。所以我们有现场乐队演奏我喜欢的歌，但没有幻灯片。然后那家伙说，我试着搞定幻灯片。我就问，接下来二十秒你要说什么？

And I go, okay. So we got that. Like, we we had a live band performing, like, a song that I like, but no slides. And then the guy's like, I'll try to figure out the slides. And I go, in the next twenty seconds, what are you talking about?

我当时就觉得，你知道，这下完了。我就想，干脆直接进去开讲吧。结果现在我得在没有幻灯片的情况下撑满四十五分钟。你总不能按原计划讲，因为没幻灯片根本没法说'通常这里会有张幻灯片'这种话。

I was like, this is, you know, this is done, man. I was like, I'll just, you know, walk in, so I start to talk. And I'm, you know, now I've got, you know, forty five minutes of time to fill with no slides. And you can't just do the talk you were gonna give without slides because it's it's you can't be like, normally, there'd be a slide.

每隔一分钟。

Every other minute.

没错。所以我就想，这四十五分钟我该讲什么？刚开场，那家伙还试图通过屏幕跟我说话。你懂吧？

Yeah. Exactly. And so I'm like, what am I gonna talk about for forty five minutes? I'm starting, and then the guy's, like, trying to talk to me via the screen. You know?

他说幻灯片是用来监控舒适度的。他说，幻灯片大概十分钟后到。你知道吗？然后我就觉得，这也太晚了吧，老兄。不过，我还是勉强把那个我已经讲过好几次的演讲版本给讲完了。

He's like Slides are comfort monitoring. He's like, slides slides incoming should be about ten minutes. You know? And it's like, this this is too late, man. But but, you know, I was able to just give some version of the talk that I've now given several times.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但可能有新情况出现。

But new. Maybe some new shit came out.

是啊，当然。不过有趣的是，对我来说，这些事的教训总是这样：你以为事情必须按某种方式发展，你希望它按某种方式发展。但当你被迫以不想要的方式去做时，不仅会对自己有新发现，还会发现你原本担心的情况其实没那么糟，甚至在某些方面可能更好。

Yeah. Of course. But but but the interesting thing is, like, you think to me, the lesson in these things is always like, you think you need it to go a certain way. You think you want it to go a certain way. And then when you were forced to do it the way that you didn't wanna do it, not only do you find something out about yourself, but but you you actually find that the thing you were preparing not to for it not to happen actually isn't that bad, and it might be better in some ways.

所以懂了吧？但技术难题是生活和任何行业的一部分。如果你执着于事情必须按特定方式发展，就会很脆弱。如果你能接受事情无论如何都会有效推进...嗯...那你就没问题。

So you know? But, like, you technical difficulties are a part of any industry in life. And so if you you you ex if you need it to go a certain way, you're very vulnerable. If you're good with it going effectively anyway Mhmm. Then you'll be alright.

对了，那次海军学院的演讲后来怎么样了？

Yeah. What happened with that Naval Academy speech?

那个啊，技术故障情况不太一样。你知道，通常我会提前发送材料——过去四年我每年都给海军学院新生做演讲，叫做'新生夏季训练'。这些孩子是全国最优秀的未来海军军官，他们将负责运营潜艇、驾驶F16战机、指挥航空母舰。

Sure. That was slightly different technical difficulties. So, know, normally, you send your like, so for the last four years, I've been speaking every year to the incoming class of the Naval Academy. It's called Plebe Summer. So these are, like, the brightest kids in the country, future naval officers, so they're gonna run submarines and fly f sixteens and command aircraft carriers.

我是说，未来的总统们，未来的海军上将们，未来的中情局局长们。

I mean, future presidents, future admirals, future heads of the CIA.

世界顶尖精英

World top gun

天啊。这些都是世界上最好、最有前途的人，真的，因为海军学院有时会有来自其他国家的学生参加这类交流项目。过去四年里，我每年都会做一系列关于基本美德的讲座——勇气、纪律、正义、智慧。我已经讲过勇气、纪律和正义，今年本该讲智慧。你需要提前发送幻灯片，不是为了审核，而是出于技术原因。

shit. These are the these are the best, you know, most promising people in the world, actually, because the Naval Academy sometimes has, like, students from other countries on these sort of guest programs. So every season every year for the last four years, I've been doing this series of lectures on the cardinal virtues, courage, discipline, justice, wisdom. So I've done courage, done discipline, I've done justice, and then I'm supposed to do wisdom this year. And so you send your slides in before, not for approval, but for technical reasons.

比如你不能带着电脑到场。因为可能插座不匹配，所以需要提前发送。我像往常一样在前一晚发了过去，之前从没收到过修改意见，因为这不是流程要求。但这次我接到了电话。我起床后，

Like, you don't you don't show up with your computer Mhmm. Because, you know, they don't have the plug or you send them in advance. So I sent them in, you know, the night before as I had for every subsequent talk and have had previously received zero notes because that's not what we were doing. And then I get a call. You know, I get up.

去跑步时还在构思演讲内容，突然接到学院工作人员的电话说：‘演讲中有个内容希望你不要提及。’我当然知道他们指的是什么，因为我花了很多时间准备演讲内容。我觉得有责任提到的是，他们刚根据总统命令从海军学院图书馆下架了数百本书，

I go for a run. I'm walking through the talk, and I get a call from someone at the academy, and they go, hey. So there's this thing in the talk that we would like you not to talk about. And, of course, I knew exactly what they were referring to because I had spent a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna talk about. And one of the things I felt sort of duty bound to address was they had just removed several 100 titles from the Naval Academy library.

据称是为了应对多元平等包容（DEI）和觉醒文化之类的问题，这些涉及相关主题的书籍被移除了。好吧，你可以对政策有意见。总统确实有权决定学院的运营方式，

As part of this order from the president that was supposedly about addressing, you know, DEI and wokeness or whatever, they had removed books that talked about those themes from the library. Okay. So you could say you have a problem with the policies. Right? And the president is allowed to decide, you know, how the academy is going to be run.

但你不能因为不喜欢书的内容，就把它们从一所顶尖大学的图书馆里清除。这完全是另一回事。

Mhmm. But you can't remove books from an elite university because you don't like what's in the books. That's a very different thing.

这确实是个有趣的观点。是梅根·菲尔普斯-罗珀对J.K.罗琳进行了女巫审判吗？所以这是当年情况的逆转——当时是一本书或一个系列的书《哈利·波特》

What it's an interesting point there. Was it Megan Phelps Roper that did the witch trials of JK Rowling? So this was the inverse of that situation that was one book or one series of books, Harry Potter

是的。

Yeah.

最初在九十年代，二月份由右翼...是的。原教旨主义基督徒发起。他们发起运动要求学校禁书，因为他们担心书中涉及巫术。而二十年后，左翼进步人士又想禁这些书，因为他们认为J.K.罗琳是跨性别恐惧者。你这里讨论的情况正好相反。

Originally in the nineties and February by right wing Yeah. Fundamentalist Christians. They campaigned to have them banned from schools because they were worried that it was witch witchcraft. And then two decades later, the left wing progressive people are trying to get it banned because they think that JK Rowling is a transphobe. And what you're talking about here is this is the other way around.

这是现代世界中右翼试图清除他们不喜欢的书籍。

This is right wing in the modern world trying to get rid of books that they don't like.

这就是为什么我们不禁书——因为这种做法很愚蠢，而且极度自相矛盾。对吧？比如《圣经》就是本常被禁的书。他们下架这些书是因为书中有令人反感的内容，但《我的奋斗》却依然陈列在学院图书馆里。

Well and and and this is why we don't ban books because it's stupid, and it it's incredibly inconsistent. Right? Like, the bible is a very banned book. So so they're they're removing it because these books have these objectionable themes. But, of course, Mein Kampf is still in the is still in the academy library.

你看，现在他们要下架的书可能是讲述大屠杀中遇难的少数群体，或是军队中服役的少数族裔。当你让ChatGPT列出一份可能具有冒犯性的书单，然后就直接从图书馆剔除这些书时，你就踏入了非常危险的领域。我之所以要谈这个，是因为它涉及到我正在撰写的主题——海军上将詹姆斯·斯托克代尔是学院最著名的毕业生之一，也是斯多葛哲学最著名的现代实践者。他从学院毕业后，海军送他去斯坦福大学攻读研究生学位，在那里他深入研究哲学。1962或63年他在斯坦福时，最喜爱的课程是关于马克思主义思想的，他们只阅读马克思主义原始文本。

And, you know, so here you are removing a book that's talking about, like, minorities that died in the Holocaust or minorities that served in the troop. Like, when when you when you have chat chat GPT pull up a list of books that it thinks might be objectionable, and then you just rip them out of a library, you're in very dangerous territory. And so I was gonna speak about this in in because it pertains to something I've been writing and talking about there, which is that admiral James Stockdale is one of the most famous graduates of the academy, one of the most famous modern practitioners of stoke philosophy. After he graduates from the academy, the navy sends him to Stanford where he gets a a postgrad degree, and he studies quite a bit of philosophy there. And his favorite course while he's at Stanford, this is in '62 or '63, is he takes a course on Marxist thought, and they only read the primary Marxist texts.

不是关于马克思的评论，也不是新马克思主义，而是马克思本人和列宁的著作。他们花了整个学期讨论马克思主义者的思想。你可能会问：一个海军战斗机飞行员为什么要学马克思？但当他后来被关押在越共的马克思主义战俘营，遭受多年洗脑、酷刑和宣传时，这些知识变得极其有用。他常说起自己如何能与看守者展开辩论。

So not, like, commentary on Marx, not neo Marxism, but, like, Marx himself and Lenin. And they read and they they spend an entire semester talking about what the Marxists thought. And you might go, what does a navy fighter pilot need to learn about Marx? Well, when he ends up in a Marxist prison camp in North Vietnam, he's subjected to years of brainwashing and torture and propaganda, it actually comes in extremely handy. And he would talk about how he was able to go back and forth with his captors.

在许多情况下，他比那些人更懂马克思主义，而这其实是一种防御机制。对吧？有趣的是，斯多葛学派也讨论过这点——我本来打算在演讲中提到的。塞内卡说过要像间谍一样潜入敌方阵营阅读。意思是你要停下来吗？

And then in many cases, he knew Marx ism better than they did, and that this was a defense mechanism. Right? And it's actually funny as the Stoics talk about this too, which, of course, I was gonna talk about in the talk. The Stoics Seneca talks about reading like a spy in the enemy's camp. The idea is you wanna stop?

不，哦不，不用。我只是觉得这听起来不错。很好。

No. Oh, no. No. I just heard this sound good. Good.

关键在于你需要了解对手的想法。而这里我们甚至不是在谈论对手，因为说的是玛雅·安杰卢的回忆录被从图书馆撤下——那可是与哈佛、耶鲁或西点军校齐名的大学。我本想谈谈为何我们不能畏惧思想，反而必须接触那些我们反对和厌恶的观点。你能想象那些撤书的人吗？当学院领导选择不质疑命令、毫无抗议地移除书籍后，他们就陷入了一个困境：现在还能允许批评这个决定吗？

So the the idea is that you you wanna know what your opponents think. And in this case, we're not even talking about opponents because we're talking about, you know, the memoirs of Maya Angelou that are getting removed from the the library of, again, a university on par with Harvard or Yale or West Point. So I was gonna talk about why this is this is why we can't be afraid of ideas, and in fact, we have to engage with ideas that we disagree with and dislike. Well, you can imagine the people that are removing once the leadership of the academy had put themselves in the position of not challenging the order and, you know, sort of removing the books without protest, they're now in a tricky situation of, can we allow criticism of this decision? Right?

这正是妥协的后果——斯托克代尔也论述过这点。他说一旦开始向勒索者让步，就不得不做出越来越多妥协。很快你就不只是因争议撤下一两本书，而是开始取消批评者的演讲邀请，事态就这样升级。所以他们要求我删减内容，但我觉得不行——年轻时我或许做不出这个决定，但这些学员未来将掌管核武器、精密机械和数十亿预算，我不能给他们讲关于勇气的课却——

This is what happens when you and, of course, Stockdale talks about this too. He talks about when you start to make compromises with extortionists, you have to make more and more compromises. Then pretty soon, you're not just removing one or two books because it's controversial, but then you're revoking invitations to speak from people who are criticizing that idea, and it escalates. So so they they asked me to remove it. And it's like, I can't I felt and I don't know if I could have made this decision early on in my life, but I talked to these kids who are gonna, again, in the future be entrusted with nuclear weapons and immensely powerful bits of machinery and budgets of the billions and billions of dollars, that I can't give them a lecture about courage.

不能讲纪律，不能讲道德与坚持正义。然后当有人说‘想继续演讲就别提我们想掩盖的事’时，我只能回答：我做不到。

I can't give them a lecture about discipline. I can't give them a lecture about ethics and doing the right thing. And then when someone says, hey. If you wanna keep talking here, we'd like you not to speak about the things that we're trying to sweep under the rug. And so I said, you know, I can't do that.

于是邀请自然被撤销，后续邀约也是。最讽刺的是我说：你们以为这能避免争议，结果只会适得其反。这不仅因为这是公开活动——在预定开始前十分钟突然取消，更因为我原定演讲是由校园里的‘斯托克代尔伦理领导力中心’主办的。

And so, of course, the invitation was revoked and then so was the subsequent invitation. The interesting thing about it to me was I I said, you know, I think you think this will avoid controversy, but it's only gonna do the opposite. Not only is it gonna do the opposite because, like, this is a public event. Like, not this is a a publicized event that has now ended, you know, ten minutes before it's supposed to go on. But, you know, part of the like, I was speaking the the I was speaking at was brought there by this center on campus called the Stockdale Center for Ethical Leadership.

所以这多讽刺：先撤下所谓‘有问题’的书，再禁止讨论，最后还向伦理领导力中心邀请的讲者施压。讽刺层层叠加。但人们总假定军人都是听令行事的钢铁机器人——正是这种想法让国家和世界陷入困境。几个世纪来，欧美军队的瑰宝始终是领导者独立思考、质疑命令的能力。

So the irony of, like, let's remove books that we find to be objectionable, and then let's not talk about it. And then let's pressure a person from the center of ethical leadership. You know, the the ironies are stacking up here. But, like, there is this there is this presumption that people in the military are just, like, big, tough, strong, you know, robots that you send in to do but that's that's what gets countries and the world into trouble. Like, the the crown jewel of the American military and the western militaries for centuries has been the ability of their leaders to think, to challenge orders, and to question.

对吧？这并不是说这就是无政府状态，而是说你需要独立思考者，否则所有人想的都一样，那就等于根本没思考。所以，你总希望这些年轻人有朝一日被赋予领导权和权力时，能做出艰难而不受欢迎的决定，这些决定可能并不总符合他们的职业利益。而此刻这些领导层向他们展示的是：我们嘴上这么说，但并非真心实意。嗯。

Right? This isn't to say that it's anarchy, but, like, you need independent thinkers or everyone's thinking the same thing and thus not thinking at all. And so, like, you are going to want these young men and women at some point when they're entrusted with leadership and power to make difficult unpopular decisions that are, you know, maybe not always in their the interests of their careers. And what this leadership is showing them in this moment is we might say that, but we don't mean it. Mhmm.

对吧？想象一下，你成了海军学院的多星上将，那可是皇冠上的明珠啊，结果你不仅参与从图书馆撤书，还表现得像是——我猜这是我过去几年一直在写的主题——如果你不运用权力、影响力、成功和平台，那它们还有什么意义？嗯。所以这是一次怪异超现实的经历。情况还在恶化，比如西点军校这周就因为政治观点撤销了原本要给汤姆·汉克斯的邀请和奖项。

Right? Like like, imagine you become a multi star admiral of the Naval Academy, one of the, you know, crowns, and then you're not just a party to removing books from the library, but then you are like, what what I guess this this is a theme of that I've been writing about for these last couple years is, like, what is the point of power, influence, success, a platform if you don't use it. Mhmm. And so it was a it was a it was a strange surreal experience. It's only sort of gotten worse like the West Point just revoked an invitation and an award they were gonna give to Tom to Tom Hanks this week because of his political views.

所以我们正深陷于‘取消文化’和‘雪花主义’的钟摆效应中。嗯。从这边摆到了那边。嗯。

So we are in this full sway of, like, the pendulum of cancel culture, snowflake ism Mhmm. Has gone from, like, this way to this way. Mhmm.

这和正在发生的事情一样，只是方向相反。

And it's the same thing that's happening just in the opposite direction.

是啊。两个方向都同样愚蠢，对谁都没好处。后来挺可笑的，人们不停追问‘那这本书呢？那本呢？’你知道，这就是场赌注。

Yeah. And it's equally stupid in both directions, and it doesn't help anyone. And then, you know, it was funny because people kept going like, well, what about this book? And what about this book? You know, this is a bet.

我说，我基本上不知道任何书名。说真的，我才不在乎书名叫什么。我确信大部分书都很烂。图书馆有几十万册书，按理说其中很大一部分——我也同意——大多数出版的书确实糟糕、愚蠢且错误。

And I go, I don't know the names of basically any of the books. Like, I don't give a shit what the names of the books are. I'm actually sure most of the books are bad. Like, the the library has hundreds of thousands of titles. It would make sense that, in fact, a large percentage of them are I I would agree that most books that are published are bad and stupid and wrong.

就是这样运作的。但一个自由社会需要思想的自由传播和出版，对吧？所以这无疑是个诡异的时代节点。

Like, that's that's how it works. But but a free society, you know, requires the free transmission and publication of ideas. Right? And so it's a it's a weird it's a weird moment in time to be sure.

你好像去过战区。

You've been in the war zone, it seems.

呃，不是。我的意思是，这可能是一个智力上的战区。是的。我觉得讽刺的是，这些人将来某天会被派往真正的战区，而我们却担心他们会读玛雅·安杰卢的书，甚至是那些最冒犯、愚蠢、错误、完全颠倒黑白的书，然后立刻觉得‘这就是我现在的世界观’。对。

Well, no. As I mean, it may be maybe an intellectual war zone. Yeah. I think what's ironic about it is these are people who are going to at someday be sent into a real war zone, and we're nervous that they're gonna read Maya Angelou or even the most, like, offensive, stupid, wrong, you know, ass backwards book and just be like, immediately That's my role view now. Yeah.

他们的思想会崩溃。实际上，这正是我们想发现的时候。你懂吗？

Their mind melts. Like, actually, this is when we would wanna find that out. You know?

啊，好吧。所以读这些愚蠢的书，看看你的思想是否改变，如果是，那就滚蛋。是的，没错。顺便说一句，你可能没吃够水果和蔬菜，你自己也知道。

Ah, okay. So read these read these stupid books, see if your mind has changed, and if so, out you go. Yes. Exactly. A quick aside, you are probably not eating enough fruit and vegetables, and you know it.

这会有帮助的。好消息。AG1刚刚发布了他们的下一代配方，而且有史以来第一次推出了多种口味：浆果味、柑橘味、热带味和原味。这是我多年来每天饮用的产品更先进、临床验证的版本。

And this is going to help. Good news. AG one just released their next gen formula, and for the first time ever, they've also released flavors. Berry, citrus, tropical, and original. It's a more advanced and clinically backed version of the product that I've been drinking every single day for years.

你依然可以保持一勺的习惯，但现在配方更加考究，并有四项临床试验支持。AG1自2010年以来不断进化，至今已完成53次配方升级，下一代版本是最终成果。临床显示它有助于填补常见营养缺口，支持肠道健康，即使对饮食良好的人也有效。一项研究中，它使肠道有益菌增加了十倍。

So you still get the same one scoop ritual, but now with an even more thoughtful formulation and four clinical trials behind it. AG one's been evolving since 2010. I think they've done 53 recipe upgrades since then, and their next gen version is the final result. It's clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps and support gut health even in people who already eat well. In one study, it boosted healthy bacteria in the gut by 10 times.

他们添加了更多生物可利用的营养素，增强了益生菌，并投资于真正的科学研究——这在补充剂领域非常罕见。另外，如果你仍有疑虑，他们提供90天退款保证。你可以购买试用三个月，不喜欢就全额退款，完全零风险。现在注册还可获赠一年份的维生素D3+K2、五包免费AG1旅行装、90天退款保证及国际免邮，点击下方链接或访问drinka1.com/modernwisdom即可。

They've added more bioavailable nutrients, enhanced probiotics, and invested in real science, which is very rare in the supplement world. Plus, if you're still unsure, they've got a ninety day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it for three months. If you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back so you can do it completely risk free. And if you sign up right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin d three k two, five free AG one travel packs, and the ninety day money back guarantee, plus international shipping by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinka1.com/modernwisdom.

那是drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。你说智慧是最难以捉摸的美德。

That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. You say wisdom is the most elusive of the virtues.

它是最难定义的。我认为勇气是我们一见便知的东西。明白吗？纪律，相当直白。但智慧的关键在于，它不仅在不可言喻性上难以捉摸。

It's the hardest to define. I think courage is something we know it when we see it. You know? Discipline, pretty straightforward. I think the thing about wisdom is that it it's it's not just elusive in terms of its ineffability.

就像，它很难定义。你知道，它是经验，是知识，是智力，是创造力，是洞察力，是视角。它是所有这些的综合体。对吧？但关于智慧有趣的是，它是那种如果你自以为拥有就几乎肯定没有的东西。

Like, it's hard to define. You know, it's it's experience, it's knowledge, it's intelligence, it's creativity, it's insight, it's perspective. It's it's all these things. Right? But the interesting thing about wisdom is that it's one of those ones that if you think you have it, you almost certainly don't.

而当你刚以为自己掌握了它，就会发现还有更多需要学习。所以它有种难以企及的特质，就像地平线永远无法触及。嗯哼。对吧？就像你不断接近却感觉毫无进展。

And the second you think you have it, you find that there is more left for you to learn. So there's something elusive about it in the sense that the horizon is elusive. Mhmm. Right? Like, you approach it and you feel like you're not making progress.

但当你回望来路，就清楚自己已走了很远。看看你读过的所有书籍，学到的所有知识，看看你比从前聪明了多少，再看看那些启程时与你同行的人已被远远抛下。但前方仍有无限...嗯哼...

You look behind you and you clearly have made a lot of progress. Look at all the things that you've read. Look at all the things that you've learned. Look at how much smarter you are than you were before, and look how far away the people who were standing with you when you began are. But but there remains an infinite amount Mhmm.

未知等待探索。因此智慧天生带有令人谦卑的特质。物理学家约翰·惠勒说过，随着知识岛屿的扩张，无知的海岸线也在延伸。我想这就是智慧的悖论——你学得越多，不仅会像真正聪明人那样愈发谦逊，更会发现自己想学的东西反而更多了。

Still to know. And so there is something inherently humbling about it. The the physicist John Wheeler said, you know, as the island of knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of ignorance. I think that's that is the paradox of wisdom, that the more you learn, not just are you humbled in that most, you know, really smart people are actually quite humble, but but the more you learn, the more you learn about all the things that you still want to learn about.

大多数人对智慧的来源存在哪些误解？

What do most people get wrong when they think about wisdom, where it comes from?

嗯，你知道，就像，有些东西，到底是书本智慧还是街头智慧？是学校教育还是生活历练？仿佛这是个非此即彼的选择。当然，其实是以上所有因素的结合。就像你需要一个知识基础。

Well, you know, like, there's some you know, is it is it is it, like, book smarts or street smarts? Like, is it school or is it life? As if it's this binary thing. Of course, it's a combination of all of the above. It's like you want a base of of knowledge.

理想情况下，你要从人类几千年积累的所有经验和伟大思想中学习。然后你必须走出去亲身体验。这样做的意义在于，它能验证你所学的内容，而你持续学习的东西又会指导你正在经历的体验。所以这本书的副标题就像是：学习、应用、重复。核心理念就是形成一个循环——永远在学习，永远在接触新事物，然后永远走出去实践和尝试这些想法。

Ideally, you wanna learn from all of the experiences, all the the the great ideas that humanity has come up with over thousands of years. And then you have to go out and experience things. And then what that does is it informs what you have learned, and then the things that you continue to learn inform the experiences you're having. So the subtitle of the book is like learn, apply, repeat. And that's the idea is that is that it's this loop of always be learning, always be exposing yourself to things, and then always be going out and applying and trying the ideas.

所以你看，如果你只是躲在象牙塔里埋头读书，可能会变得更聪明，但我不认为你会更有智慧。而且试图全靠自己摸索来学习这些教训，本质上其实是件很蠢的事。对吧？就像我记得俾斯麦说过：傻瓜才从自己的经验中学习，我更喜欢从别人的经验中学习。

So, you know, if you're just sort of reading up in your your tower, so to speak, you might be getting smarter, but I wouldn't say you're getting wiser. And then there there is something fundamentally stupid though about trying to learn all these lessons yourself. Right? Like, you go I think I think it was Otto von Bismarck, you know, he said, any fool can learn by experience. I prefer to learn from the experiences of others.

所以当有人曾处于和你完全相同的处境时，为什么还要自己从头摸索？他们不仅从中吸取了教训，还将其记录下来。然后其他人又对这些记录进行过研究。你正在尝试的某个职位、追求的某个目标、尝试的某件事——历史上最聪明的一些人可能花了大半辈子专门研究过这件事。

So why why would you wanna figure something out when someone has been in your exact position before? And not just learned from it, but, like, written about it. And then other people have written about them. And and so you think about, like, this position you're trying, this this thing you're going for, this thing you're attempting. Like, some of the smartest people who've ever lived have have spent years of their life thinking about just that thing.

然后我们内心总有些自负的声音说：'我就即兴发挥吧'，或者'我比他们懂得多'。所以谦逊之所以是智慧的关键，不仅在于'你无法学会自以为已经知道的东西'，更在于它能让你保持对知识的饥渴感。

And then and then there is the ego in us that goes like, well, I'll wing it, you know, or or I I I know better. And and so the reason that humility is this key to wisdom is not just like you can't learn that which you think you already know, but but it it it keeps you hungry to learn more and more.

我对'无法传授的教训'有个观点。这是个独特的类别——无论听过多少歌曲、电影、祖辈的故事和警告，你都无法通过别人的故事加速理解这些事。你只能亲身经历才明白：金钱买不到幸福。

I have this idea about unteachable lessons. Yeah. And it's a a unique category where no matter how many songs and movies and stories from your grandparents and warnings, you cannot expedite the process of understanding this thing through somebody else's storytale. You can only learn these things. Money won't make you happy.

名声填不满自我价值。那个女孩不值得爱，她只是性感又难追。你该多陪陪父母。你不该这么拼命工作。

Fame won't fill your self worth. That girl's not lovable. She's just hot and difficult to get. You should see your parents more. You should work less hard.

你知道吗？这些陈词滥调之所以成为陈词滥调，正是因为当人们初次接触时，它们总是显得如此颠覆性。于是这几乎形成了一种自我否定的预言——人人都谈论它，人人都自以为懂得它，结果人人都轻视它，就像对待某种无稽之谈。'别碰热炉子'这种常识，在这些人眼中却成了需要接受的现实源代码的一部分。

You know? These things that are cliche, and the reason that they're cliche is that they seem to be so reliably groundbreaking to everybody when they arrive there. So it almost becomes its own it's like a self defeating prophecy that everybody says it, which means everybody thinks that they know it, which means everybody discounts it as like, oh, that's just like a wives' tale. That's not like you shouldn't put your hand on a hot stove. That's these people, they've just accepted it as as part of the source code of reality.

但我看着自己在雷区中起舞，旋转跳跃。规则对我无效。

But I watch me dance through this minefield, and I'll do pirouettes, and I'll spin around. The rules won't apply to me.

但有趣的是，我认为这些教训之所以如此老生常谈，部分原因在于——比如'金钱买不来幸福'、'名利皆虚妄'，或者'你无法通过成就填补灵魂空洞'这类道理。这确实是文学艺术乃至社会心理学反复探讨的主题。而人类难以领悟这些，恐怕还有进化层面的原因，对吧？

But the funny thing about that is I think one of the reasons those lessons are so cliche and then why you talk about them so much is partly because okay. So you take something like money won't make you happy or fame is empty or, you know, you're not gonna fill that hole in your soul by achieving and doing. That's, you know, a theme in literature and art and and, of course, social psychology also. And and there's probably some evolutionary reasons why that's a hard lesson to learn. Right?

这正是推动人类前进的动力。嗯。但有人觉悟得早，有人醒悟得晚。有人得像亚历山大大帝那样远征世界尽头才明白，而有人在大学毕业典礼上就顿悟了。

This is what propels humanity forward. Mhmm. But some of us learn that lesson sooner than others. Right? Some people have to go as far as Alexander, like literally to the end of the worlds to learn it, and then other people experience it during their college graduation.

亚历山大当时领悟到了什么？我是说，他一路打到世界尽头。嗯。他的将士们问：我们还要走多远？他说：就让历史记载你们在此转身，未能随亚历山大征服剩余的世界吧——随后他便去世了。

What was Alexander's realization around that point? Well, I'm just saying Alexander gets all the way to the end of the world. Mhmm. And and his men are like, how much longer are we gonna do this? And he says, you know, let it be said that you turned around here and, you know, didn't conquer the rest of the world with Alexander, and then he subsequently dies.

他死得惨烈痛苦。有理论认为他当时处于某种清醒的昏迷状态，身体僵直。可以说在生命终点，他或许有片刻思考这一切是否值得。所以我的观点是：你可以在极端处境中学到教训，也可以在初现端倪时就听见警示。就像我常说的，生活总在试图告诉我们什么，最终它会用我们能听懂的方式传达。

And he dies this brutal, painful death where some some of the theories are, like, he was, like, sort of in this, like, conscious coma where he's, like, frozen. But, like, he it was a it was a let's say it was an end where he might have had a few moments to contemplate whether it had all been worth it. Right? And so my my point is you can learn it at the very far end of the extremes, or you can hear it at the first inkling of it. Like I I I've said before, like, feel like life is always trying to tell us something, and eventually it will tell us in a way that we can hear it.

于是低语逐渐变成呐喊——你是想在生活低语时就听见，还是非要等生活把你按在地上对着脸咆哮？就像戒酒圈里说的：趁车库里还有两辆车时就触底反弹。难道非要等到人生崩盘、失去一切才醒悟？能不能把这次酒驾当作警钟？

And so The whispers just get louder and hear it do you wanna hear it when when life is whispering this to you, or do you want life to have to pin you down and scream it in your face? You know? Like in sobriety circles, they talk about, like, you know, hitting rock bottom while you still have two cars in the garage. Like, do you have to hit rock bottom when you've blown up your entire life and lost everything and everyone, or can you take this DUI as a sign? Right?

这确实是个非常棒的观点，没错，这些课程是无法教授的，但有些人确实需要

That's a really a really great point that, yes, these lessons are unteachable, but some people need to be

比别人多学几遍。

taught more times than others.

是的。而且你知道，古罗马人说过，愚者不是那个被石头绊到脚趾的人，而是被同一块石头反复绊倒的人。关键在于你能多快吸取教训。这就是为什么——尤其在早期——这些经典神话、思想以及西方正典如此重要，从《圣经》到《奥德赛》，再到马可·奥勒留和亚里士多德等伟大著作，它们几乎囊括了人类智慧的全部结晶。

Yes. And and and that was you know, the Romans talked about, you know, the the fool is not someone who who stubs their toe on a rock. It's the person who stubs their toe on the same rock more than once. And so it's how quick can you learn the lesson. And so part of part of why you you take in, especially early on, why these classic myths and ideas and the Western canon is so important is that they contain from the bible to the Odyssey, to Marcus Aurelius and Aristotle and all the great stories, is they contain kind of the sum total of human wisdom.

对吧？但有些道理，你光听是学不会的。只有当你经历了与教训相匹配的体验时，才能真正理解。哦，

Right? And some of them though, you don't learn. You you hear, but you don't understand until you have the experience that matches that lesson. Oh,

就是这么回事。

that's that thing.

没错。因此你需要让思想与经历相匹配——两者缺一不可。我特别喜欢这种

Yes. And and so you need to you need to you need to have the ideas to match what the experiences neither is is is sufficient on its own. I love that that blending of

二者的结合，特别是如果你没有足够完善的框架，没有一个坚固的脚手架来承载人生经历的话，或许你能吸取正确的教训，但也可能得出错误结论。比如患上金牌选手综合征，你会觉得，二。对，就是二。

the two, especially because if you don't have a a good enough framework, sort of a robust scaffolding to hold your life's experiences on, yeah, maybe you will take the right lesson, but maybe you'll take the wrong one. Maybe you get gold medalist syndrome. You think, two. Yes. Two.

问题就在这里。我需要证明我不是靠运气，而是真有本事。是的，我不能仅仅因为卖了一家公司赚了一亿美元就止步。我必须再来一次，没错。

That's the issue. The issue is I need to prove that I wasn't lucky, that I was good. Yes. I don't just sell the one company for a $100,000,000. I've gotta run it back again Yeah.

换一个行业，然后事情就变了。与之相反，不。这是习惯使然。你以前就学过这个。这完全是同一个心魔，只是从一个更狡猾的角度向你袭来。

In a different industry, and then the thing. As opposed to, no. This is habituation. You have learned this before. It's the exact same gremlin just coming at you from a slightly more conniving angle.

是的，而且关键是要能意识到——哦，这就是某某当时在做的事。这就是某某在这个关键时刻的表现。曾几何时，我们共享的故事足够多时（虽然故事总量更少），大家都能认出——哦，这就像奥德修斯面对塞壬，或是哈姆雷特，又或是乔治·华盛顿在那个历史时刻。

Yes. And and and it's to be able to recognize, oh, this is what so and so was doing here. This is so and so at this, you know, critical juncture point. Like and and there was a time when we had enough shared story for some, there were just fewer stories. So everyone could kind of recognize, oh, this is like, you know, Odysseus at the sirens, or this is Hamlet, or this this is this is, you know, George Washington at this moment.

明白吗？这些故事本就是为传授道德教训而设计的。史上最伟大的传记作家是普鲁塔克。他说过，传记与人生是有区别的。他说：我写的是人生。

You know? You you have these stories that are designed to teach these moral lessons. Like, the greatest biographer of all time is Plutarch. And Plutarch says, you know, there's a difference between biography and lives. And he says, I write lives.

人生常被某些轶事所诠释——一个小故事、几句箴言，就能帮你解开这个人物的关键教训、致命缺陷或非凡天赋。当你读到这些常带有缺陷的悲剧历史人物时，关键是要从中汲取微小的教训。无论是赢得金牌、卖掉公司，还是准备孤注一掷追求你认为能带来幸福或成就的事业时，你都会想：我是否正在重蹈他们的覆辙？他们的结局又如何？因此，拥有这些广泛的历史案例和故事（虽然未必完全准确）的意义在于，它们揭示了我们需要铭记的人性真相。嗯。

And lives are illustrated by a certain anecdote, a little story, an utterance of a few words that help you unlock the lesson or the the fatal flaw or the the brilliant genius of this person. And and so when you read about these historical figures who are often flawed and tragic figures, the idea is you take back from them little lessons that then, yeah, when you're winning a gold medal or you've just sold a company or you're about to gamble it all on this thing that you believe is you know, the key to unlocking your happiness or your legacy or whatever, you go, oh, maybe I should ask myself, am I about to do what they did, and how did it go for them? And and so it's having this broad array of case studies and stories that were, you know, not always the most historically accurate, but they were illustrating something about the human experience that we need to remember. Mhmm.

几周前我曾和一位印象派艺术家共度时光。

I was spending time with an impressionist a couple of weeks ago.

你是指喜剧演员吗？还是说画家？对对对。

Like a comedian? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because you mean a painter?

不，抱歉。对，很好很好，他会模仿。不管那个人叫什么。

No. Sorry. Yeah. Good good good he does impressions. Whatever that person's called.

对，两个都叫同一个名字吗？

Yeah. Both called the same thing?

我想是的。

I think so.

应该有人改改这个。对。总之，我刚才在解释马修·麦康纳会重返节目。对，这不是很让人兴奋吗？

Someone should change it. Yeah. Anyway, and I was explaining I've got Matthew McConaughey coming back on the show. Yeah. That wouldn't that be exciting?

他就问，第一次和他坐下来是什么感觉？我说，所有那些事。他很有魅力，诸如此类，而且他模仿麦康纳很到位。我说，他做了个你当时没做的动作，看起来他嘴里好像没东西，但他表现得像含着一小根稻草什么的，手还这样动。那家伙就说，这就是关键所在。

And he's like, what was it like to sit down with him the first time? And I said, all of the thing. He's very charismatic and all the rest of it, and he does a great McConaughey. And I said, he does this thing that you didn't do when he did it, and he doesn't ever have it seems to me like he doesn't have stuff in his mouth, but he goes like he's sort of like as if there's a little bit of straw or something that he needs, and he does this with his hand. And the dude was like, that's the unlock.

他向我解释，在模仿别人的艺术中，嗯，存在一个关键点，这个关键点可能是某个特定动作——你说话的方式、发's'音的口型、手指的摆动、手势、面部表情等等。他说这就是人们会记住的东西，就像你提到的那些可移植的故事，克莱·哈比特称之为独立的小寓言，甚至可能是三个字的箴言，嗯，随便吧。然后你就会说，就是那个东西。

And he explained to me that in the art of doing impressions of people Mhmm. There is a an unlock, and the unlock is this one thing, the way that you speak, the pronunciation of the s, the, moving of the fingers, the hands, the face, whatever. He says that's the thing that people hook onto in the same way as what you're talking about here is that there are these portable stories, as Clay Habit calls them, these individual maybe even a tiny little aphor three word aphorism Mhmm. Whatever. And you go, that's the thing.

我和你，引用别人的话都挺多的，对。因为原创思考相当困难，而且，比我们聪明得多的人早就把问题解决了。对，某种程度上我们的工作就是

And both me and you, quote other people a good bit Yeah. Because original thinking's pretty tough, and, also, people way smarter than me and you have already figured stuff out. Yeah. And it's kind of our job to

好的。

Sure.

将其精炼并使其易于理解。

Essentialize that and and and make it accessible.

如果我能说得更好，我会的。是的，确实如此。

If I could say it better, I would. Yeah. True.

我尝试过。我认为，在很多方面，对我来说，我喜欢它的原因是，使用小引语、格言、咒语之类的东西，有点像WinZip压缩文件

And I've tried. And I think that, you you know, in many ways, for me, the reason that I love it is that, using small quotes, aphorisms, mantras, stuff like that, is kind of like a WinZip file

嗯。

Mhmm.

它能压缩这个大东西。我的记忆力没那么好，但如果只需要记住这个小序列就还好。当然。然后我就想起来，哦，是的。宇宙在变化，生活不过是我们认为的那样。

That condenses down this big thing. My memory's not that good, but it's not bad if I just have to remember this small sequence. Sure. And I go, oh, yeah. The universe is changed, and life is but what we deem it.

哦，好吧，这就像，这个大家伙意味着我大概能记住一点。是的。但我能回想起这个。我能记住副歌部分，然后整张专辑的其他部分也随之而来。

Oh, well, there's, like, this big thing that that means that I kind of remember a bit. Yes. But I can recall this. I I can remember the chorus, and from that, I kind of the rest of the album comes along with it too.

是的。我认为太多人混淆了历史和琐事。具体哪一年发生、名字怎么发音、某场战役中军队如何布阵——这些细节远不如事件背后的原因、人物或其中蕴含的基本道德教训重要。经典和古老故事的价值正在于此。比如辛辛纳图斯，你知道他的故事吗？

Yeah. And and I think too many people have confused, you know, history and trivia. Exactly what year this happened, exactly how the name is pronounced, exactly where the troops were aligned in this battle or that battle you know, is is much less important as as to the the why or the characters or the kind of the the fundamental moral lessons that that that thing has the opportunity to to teach us. And that's what the classics and the sort of ancient stories have always been. Like, Cincinnatus do you know the story of Cincinnatus?

辛辛纳图斯是位隐居的罗马将军。这故事你马上会觉得耳熟——这位著名将军退休后，罗马军队在远方作战时全军被困，导致罗马城防空虚。元老院于是去田间找到正在耕种的辛辛纳图斯，说'我们需要你拯救罗马，将任命你为独裁官'。

So Cincinnatus is this Roman general who's living in retirement. This story will will sound familiar to you in a second. He's this famous Roman general living in retirement, and the Roman army is in battle in some distant land, basically, the whole of the Roman army is is is trapped. And so Rome is basically undefended. And so the the Roman elders go to Cincinnatus, who is plowing on his farm in retirement and say, we we need you to save Rome, and we will make you dictator.

他受命成为独裁官后，率领少量罗马辅助部队解救被困军队，拯救了罗马。但十七天后就辞去独裁官职回归田园。没错，这就是《角斗士》的剧情原型。

And so he's made dictator. He leads a small, you know, troop of Roman Roman auxiliaries and, you know, frees the Roman army, saves Rome, and is now dictator. And he, after seventeen days, resigns the dictatorship and returns to his farm. Right? This is the plot of Gladiator, of course.

这也是乔治·华盛顿在独立战争后辞去军职的范本。当英王乔治听说华盛顿要解甲归田时说：'若他真这么做，将是世界上最伟大的人'。两人都明白这是在效仿辛辛纳图斯——华盛顿两届总统任期后卸任时亦是如此。不过辛辛纳图斯很可能根本不存在。

And it's also the model for George Washington resigning his commission after the revolutionary war. You know, when King George hears that that Washington is gonna return to his farm, he goes, if he does that, it'll be the greatest man in the world. Both of them understand that this is an allusion to the example of Cincinnatus when when Washington resigns the presidency after two terms. It's again Cincinnatus that he's. So this is a famous story, but Cincinnatus almost certainly did not exist.

这个传说在罗马历史中流传太久，几乎找不到确凿证据。但因其流传千年，罗马人信以为真，华盛顿信以为真，英王也信以为真。如今我讲给七岁孩子听时，它依然如同真理。总有人执着考证史实，就像揭穿华盛顿没砍樱桃树那样，非要证明辛辛纳图斯不存在或事件更复杂。对专攻该领域的研究生而言，或许这很重要——

Like, that is a story that goes back so far in Roman history that there is almost no factual basis for it that anyone can clearly point to one way or another. But the story has existed for so long that the Romans certainly thought it was true, and Washington thought it was true, and King George thought it was true. And, you know, when I tell it to my seven year old, it may as well be true. And I think some people have taken the role of the historian to prove that it didn't happen, to be like, here, George Washington didn't chop down the cherry tree or, you know, Cincinnatus didn't really exist or this didn't happen or it was more complicated than that. And, look, if you're a grad student specializing in that thing, perhaps that is important.

但对大多数人而言，关键在于其中克己无私的训诫：真正伟大之人不仅能放下权力，更将和平移交权力的传统作为馈赠留给后世。历史本该是代代相传的珍贵智慧，这些著名故事真伪并不重要——执着于字面真相反而舍本逐末。

But for most people, most of the time, the the significance of that is the the lesson of sort of restraint and selflessness that that that actually power can be laid down and that, you know, the truly great and powerful people not only do do that, but that's the gift they are giving the future generations, this continuing this tradition of the peaceful transfer of power. And so the the history is supposed to be the sort of sacred hard earned knowledge that we pass on from person to person. And so a lot of these famous stories, you know, maybe they're true, maybe they're not. If if you're being literal about them, you're missing the point.

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And right now, the first thousand people can get an additional $100 off, meaning it's only $400 to get the exact same blood panel that I use. Just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Did you read Derek Siver's book, useful, not true? No.

好吧。我发誓这个想法是我独立想出来的——比喻意义上成立，字面上不成立。对。字面上成立，比喻意义上不成立。没错。

Okay. So I had this idea for, I swear to god, I came up with it independently, which was figuratively true, literally false. Yes. Literally true, figuratively false. Yes.

德里克也提出了个差不多的观点，这通常是个好兆头。是啊。就像两个人从不同角度指向同一事物？对。

And Derek came up with something that was not too dissimilar, which is usually a good idea. Yeah. Like, it's like, hey. Two people pointed at the same thing from different angles? Like Yeah.

这里可能真有道理。确实。字面上成立，比喻意义上不成立。决定论或许是种解读方式：或许根本不存在自由意志，我们所有的行为轨迹都源于大爆炸，就像多米诺骨牌接连倒下。但实际操作层面，这种结论能带来什么？

There's might be something here. Sure. Literally true, figuratively false. You determinism might be a a way to look at this, that, perhaps with there is no free will, and the entire way that we move through the world is predetermined by the big bang and the dominoes just falling and falling falling. However, functionally What would you do with that ending?

屁用没有。只会让我陷入虚无主义，感觉完全无法掌控未来。这结论字面上是错的，但实际影响却是真实的。在中世纪的中东地区，猪被视为道德污秽的生物——它们本质上并不比其他动物更不道德，但在炎热气候下，其肉质平均携带更多病原体。

Fucking useless. It makes me nihilistic. It makes me feel like I I I don't have any control of my future. Something which is literally false, but functionally true, in The Middle East, in sort of medieval times, pigs are morally dirty creatures. They're no more or less moral than another other creature, but in a hot climate, their flesh contains more pathogens on average.

确实。所以不吃猪肉可能很明智。豪猪能发射尖刺？不，它们不能。

Sure. So not eating them, probably a pretty good idea. Porcupines can throw their quills. No. They can't.

它们他妈的根本射不出刺。但如果你当作它能，就会保持更远距离，减少被刺风险。这种用客观理性标准衡量现代叙事的观念，在现实落地时究竟如何体现？我觉得对很多人而言，它本应像溶解剂般冲刷掉大量谎言——毕竟那些既不符合事实又毫无价值的东西确实该被清除。

They can't fucking throw their quills. But if you treat it like it can, you steer just a little bit further clear, you're less likely to get stung. So this idea that holding modern stories to the standards of objective, rationality, where does it appear on the spreadsheet? Please show me how this comes into land. I think for a lot, it was a good solvent that was supposed to kind of wash away a lot of bullshit that existed, because there was stuff that was literally false, functionally false, and that actually needed to fuck off.

你知道，有这样一种说法：传统往往是我们已经遗忘的问题的解决方案。如今有种对‘第一性原理思考’的盲目崇拜，这很重要。

You know, there's an expression that that traditions are often solutions to problems that we've forgotten about. And this idea there's kind of been this fetishization these days of, like, thinking from first principles. Right? And it this is important.

而我自己也认同这一点。

And I arrive at it myself.

是的，我独立思考。我是个第一性原理思考者。

Yeah. I I think for myself. I'm I'm a first principles thinker.

我不是随波逐流的人。我是自主的。

I I Not one of the sheeple. I'm autonomous.

没错。我不在乎先例。要知道，许多先例都是历经艰难才确立的。而你却轻易忽视，甚至不明白当初为何要这样设定。

Yeah. I don't care about your precedent. And, you know, a lot of precedent is hard won. Right? And and maybe even why it was hard won or how it was hard won, you are blowing past, and you are ignoring why it was set up this way in the first place.

因此，不仅真正从第一性原理思考每件事既费神又难以为继，而且有时事物会偶然解决一个问题同时解决另一个问题，或变量间纠缠不清。你可能会说‘我们不需要这个，这很蠢’，但你不明白——因为你没有二十年、五十年或上千年的经验——这其实是对复杂多维问题的次优或不完美的解决方案。智慧正是源于这种谦卑：经历过艰难并解决过难题后，你会意识到‘哦，可能不该这样解决’。

And so not only is it exhausting and unsustainable to to truly think, you know, from first principles and everything, but, yes, sometimes things are incidentally solving one problem and also solving another problem or things are variables are hopelessly tied up with each other. So you go, hey, we don't need this. This is stupid. And you don't understand because you don't have twenty years or fifty years or a thousand years of experience in this thing that actually this is a subpar solution or an inelegant solution to a very complicated or multifaceted thing. And so the arrogance, I think that, again, what wisdom is is this humility of having done hard things before and solved hard problems before, and you go, oh, okay.

我脑海中突然冒出的那个能神奇解决一切的念头，其实很天真。你知道戈尔迪之结的故事吗？那是个无法解开的绳结，人们一个接一个尝试去解开它。

It's it's probably not gonna be solved like this. And this thing that popped into my head that should magically resolve all of this, you know, is is naive. Like, do you know the story of a Gordian knot? No. So there's this knot that's tied that is impossible to untie, and person after person goes to to untie it.

如果你解开它，你知道，你就会成为这片土地的国王。我想起亚历山大来了，他他用剑把戈尔迪之结劈成两半解决了问题。是的，从技术上讲这是个解决方案，但也不算真正的解决。你并没有真正解开那个结。所以这又回到了那种对所谓完美解决方案的迷恋，其实...

And if you if you untie it, you know, you become the king of this land. I And think it's Alexander comes and and, you know, he he he solves the Gordian knot by chopping it in half with his sword. And, yes, that's technically a solution, but it's also not a solution. You haven't actually untied the knot. And and so so there's this, again, this sort of fetishizing of, like, these complete solutions to things that, hey.

前人并非愚者。事实上，他们比你更谦逊，明白很可能不存在让所有人满意或满足所有条件的解决方案。正因如此，事情才保持现状，顺便说一句，这也是为什么局势能长期保持相对稳定。我们现在在政治和生活中都看到这种现象——比如你作为硅谷投资人，给公司投5万美元，错了最多损失5万，但对了可能赚50亿。

The the people before were not idiots. And in fact, they had a little more humility than you did and understood that there probably was not a solution that that pleased everyone or or checked every box. And so that's why this is where it is and why, by the way, things have remained relatively stable for a long time. I think we're seeing this now in politics, but also life where okay. If you're a Silicon Valley investor and you invest $50,000 in a company, okay, the downside of you being wrong is that you lose $50,000, but the upside is you might make $5,000,000,000.

在你所处的特定领域这很棒，你能接触大量初创企业，拥有广泛资本基础，可以多次试错直到成功。但生活中大多数事情并非如此，对吧？政治、生活、地缘政治都不适用这套逻辑。

So that's great in this very specific domain that you are in, where you get access to lots of early stage companies. You have a large broad base of capital, and you can throw you can be wrong a lot to be right one time. Well, most of life is not like that. Right? And politics and life, geopolitics, are not like that.

要

To be

在灾难性后果发生前犯那么多错误。

wrong that much before there's a catastrophic outcome.

没错。所以我们建立的许多制度和程序——不仅在美国，全球都是如此，比如联合国、欧盟等机构——它们存在的目的不是打造世界上最流畅高效的机器。

Yes. Yes. And so a lot of the systems that we have set up and a lot of the procedures we have, this is not just in America, but all over the world. Talking about the UN or the EU or all these different institutions. They are there not to create the easiest, most well functioning, efficient machine in the world.

它们是为了防止第三次世界大战爆发，防止核武器爆炸，避免经济崩溃。明白吗？它们防范的是下行风险，不像投资亏损只是损失本金那么简单。

They're there to make sure World Wars three doesn't happen. They're there to make sure that a nuclear weapon doesn't explode. They're, you know, they're there to prevent an economic meltdown. Right? They're protecting against downside, which unlike, say, investing, is not you lose the capital that you put in.

缺点是你会永远失去所有人的一切。因此，理解你所处的环境和风险，我认为这也是某些真正聪明人所缺乏的。事实上，他们从成为某个领域的专家中学到了很多坏习惯。比如，某些领域的专业知识是可迁移的，但很多并不是。而智慧就在于知道哪些专业知识是可迁移的，哪些不是。

The downside is you lose everything for everyone forever. And so understanding what environment you're in and the stakes, this is also, I think, something that some really smart people don't have. And in fact, they've learned a lot of bad habits from being the master of one domain. Like, some domain expertise is transferable, and a lot of it is not. And and the wisdom is knowing what domain expertise is transferable and what isn't.

你写的歌很棒。歌词优美，旋律动听。

You write fantastic songs. Wonderful lyricist. Great at melodies.

是的。不在乎你对气候变化的看法。不在乎你对乌克兰的看法。别以为你的专长能延伸到地缘政治这种领域。你可以外包给其他人，或者自己成为这方面的专家。

Yeah. Don't care what you think about climate change. Don't care what you think about the Ukraine. Don't get like, your geo that is not an area that your expertise can go to. Now you can outsource that to other people, or you can become an expert in your own right.

是的。但仅仅因为你擅长这一件事

Yeah. But just because you're great at this one thing

对。

Yes.

所以我同意。但像大多数事情一样，细节决定成败。确实如此。比如说，有些来自行业外的人，是的，正因为他们对这个领域陌生，反而能获得新视角。

And so I agree. But as with most things, the devil is in the details Sure. Here. So for instance, there are people from outside of an industry Yes. That get a new perspective because of the fact that they're alien to this thing.

没错。因为他们用全新的眼光看到了别人看不到的东西。莱特兄弟在我看来就是这类人的典型例子。确实。所以我认为平衡这种切斯特顿栅栏效应是可以的。

Yeah. Because they see something with a fresh set of eyes that nobody else would. And the Wright brothers kind of strike me as a pretty canonical example of someone like this. Sure. So I think balancing this Chesterton's fence pilled okay.

我们要谨慎对待淘汰的事物。是的，明白吗？这更像是一种保守、缺乏创新、不愿快速颠覆现状的立场。有时候，我们需要一个伟人来推动变革。

Let's be careful with what we get rid of. Yeah. You know? Which is a much more sort of conservative, less innovative, less move, fast break things position with, well, you know, sometimes we need, like, a great man or great woman to come and kinda do a thing.

是的。要在创新欲望与迭代欲望之间找到平衡。但你会发现，像莱特兄弟这样的典范人物，他们并不认为其他尝试解决飞行问题的人都是白痴。这个问题困扰了人类几千年，当时全世界的军队也都在竞相攻克这个难题。他们并没有那种'众人皆醉我独醒'的傲慢。

Yeah. And balancing those two, the innovation desire with the iteration desire. But but what you find in the best of those people, the Wright brothers being a classic example of this, is there wasn't this sense that everyone else trying to tackle the flight problem. And it was a problem other people people have been interested in it for thousands of years, but, you know, like, all the armies of the world were also rushing to try to figure this out at the same time. You know, there wasn't this sense that everyone else is a moron and we're geniuses.

莱特兄弟拥有的是好奇心，一种对'我的方法是否有效'的开放态度。他们花费无数时间观察鸟类飞行。他们具备草根精神，是局外人，却保持独立思考。

What the Wright brothers had was this curiosity, this sort of openness to how am I working? Know, they spent hours and hours just studying how birds, you know, fly. They had a scrappiness to them. They were outsiders. They were independent.

但莱特兄弟做的第一件事是写信给史密森尼学会，索要所有关于飞行的出版物。他们并非要全盘否定现有成果，事实上他们渴望与权威机构合作。如今我们总爱歌颂那些粗暴颠覆传统的叛逆者，这种倾向值得反思。

But, you know, the first thing the Wright brothers do is write to the Smithsonian for, like, every book ever published on flight. It wasn't a, like, burn it all down. Everyone's a moron. And in fact, they would have loved to collaborate with the powers that be and would have loved to be brought in as part of it. So I there's this tendency to celebrate the sort of brash, you know, domineering outsider who comes in and tears everything apart.

但我发现，真正有效的改革者往往深刻理解现状形成的根源。这种'消极能力'让他们能区分：这是已知事实，这是我的观点，这是我作为局外人的理解。经过深入研究现状成因后——比如我要举两个改革者例子：亚伯拉罕·林肯和托马斯·克拉克森，他们都是废奴运动的先驱。

But I I think you tend to find that the the most effective reformers have a profound understanding of why things are the way that they are. So so that is that's actually, you know, the negative capability to go like, here's what I know, and here's what I think is true, and here's what I understand as an outsider. And then here, I've done a profound deep dive as to why it is this way. Like, one of the most profound like, I'll give you two sort of related reformers. You have Abraham Lincoln, and then you have Thomas Clarkson, the two basically forerunners of of the abolitionist movement.

英国的托马斯·克拉克森推动了奴隶贸易的废除，而林肯在美国终结了奴隶制。他们作为局外人开始反奴隶制运动时，只有一个朴素信念：奴隶制是错的。这个信念超越了几千年的历史传统，无视背后的巨额经济利益，也不在乎宗教领袖的认可。

Thomas Clarkson in The UK leads to the the the eradication of the slave trade and then slavery in England, and then and Abraham Lincoln ends it in The United States. Both of them start their campaigns against slave they had this as as outsiders or as just human beings, this immediate impulse that slavery is wrong, that that it doesn't matter that we've been doing it for thousands of years. It doesn't matter that billions of dollars are riding on it. It doesn't matter that all the religious teachers say it's okay. None of that matters.

他们洞见了制度的谬误，这是典型的局外人视角。但关键在于后续行动：林肯在伊利诺伊州议会图书馆和国会图书馆研读开国元勋对奴隶制的论述，发现当时主流认为'国父们意图维护奴隶制'的观点并不属实。而克拉克森的卓见在于，他论证了奴隶制在经济上本身就是低效的。

They understood it was wrong. That's your classic outsider view seeing the world from a new perspective. But then what they both do is they go, I gotta figure this out. Like, Abraham Lincoln goes to the State House Library in Illinois and then the Library of Congress when he's a congressman, And he goes and he actually reads what the founders said about slavery, and he realizes that the dominant view at this time that the founders were out to preserve and protect slavery actually wasn't true. Thomas Clarkson, his genius is he realizes that slavery is actually just bad as a business.

他研究奴隶贩子对他们运输的人类货物提出的保险索赔。他发现每次航行中有20%的水手死亡。他亲自去观察奴隶船的样子，并绘制了这幅著名的示意图，将原本抽象的问题生动呈现。关键在于，你不需要接受主流观点或现状，但必须理解其背后的逻辑。这正是正义与智慧相互关联的美德所在。

He studies the insurance claims that slave traders are making on the the human cargo that they are transporting. He's looking at the fact that twenty percent of the sailors are dying on each voyage. He he's actually going and looking at what a slave ship looks like, and then he draws this famous diagram that illustrates the vividness of of what was an abstract problem before. So the point is, it's not that you have to absorb the dominant view or the status quo, but you have to understand the logic of why it is that way. This is where justice and wisdom are are interrelated virtues.

这不只是简单地说'我有这个观点，我在道德上是正确的，所以全世界都应该同意'。你必须怀着好奇心去思考：这些人很可能不是故意犯错。那么他们为何这样想？是什么根本条件或动机让他们产生这种想法？

Like, it's not just, oh, I have this opinion. I'm morally correct, so therefore, world should agree. You have to have this curiosity to go, well, well, these people probably aren't wrong on purpose. So why do they think this? What are the underlying conditions or incentives that are making them think this way?

很多人试图说林肯在奴隶制问题上含糊其辞，因为他太理解南方了。但不对，这正是同理心的体现。他说'我们就是他们，他们也就是我们——如果我们处在他们的境遇中'。意思是，如果你在南方长大...

You know, Lincoln a lot of people have tried to go, well, you know, Lincoln is equivocating on slavery because, he was so understanding of the South. But, no, that's what empathy is. He says, we are just what they would be. We are just they are just what we would be in their in if we were in their condition. Meaning, he's like, if you were raised in the South Mhmm.

从出生起就被灌输这种思想，你也会这样想。因此你必须具备'消极能力'去理解——对不了解的人来说，这是济慈提出的概念，指同时容纳相互排斥或矛盾观点的能力。你要能明白'这是他们的想法，这是他们的理由'，这不会改变我所知的真相，也不会改变那本质上仍是错误的事实。

And this is what you were taught from day one, you would think about it this way. Mhmm. And so what what you have to have the negative capability to understand, and for people that don't know, that's a thing that Keats talked about, the ability to have mutually exclusive ideas in your head at the same time or contradictory ideas. You have to be able to go, here's what they think, and here's why they think it. That's not gonna change what I know to be true, or that's not gonna change the fact that that's still fundamentally incorrect.

但我有能力理解其成因，而这通常是采取有效行动的前提。就像埃隆·马斯克说得对，联邦政府效率极低，他在特定领域确实专业。但多数人预测狗狗币会失败，因为它会遭遇那些长期存在的障碍——我认为他原以为能用蛮力压倒这些困难。

But I have the ability to understand why it is that way, and that is usually a prerequisite to doing anything about it or doing anything about it effectively. Like, Elon Musk is right. The federal government is very inefficient, and and he has a lot of domain expertise in his specific areas. But most people predicted Doge would fail because it would run up into these sort of long standing obstacles and difficulties that I think he thought he could overwhelm with sheer force. Do you

你知道Levels公司的萨姆·科科斯吗？就是做血糖监测的那个？

know Sam Corkos from Levels? You know Levels? It's like a glucose monitor thing.

哦，知道知道。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

我认识Levels。他是Levels的创始人，现在是财政部的首席信息官。对，我周四要采访他。

I know Levels. So he was the founder of Levels. He is now the CIO of the treasury department. Yeah. I'm interviewing him on Thursday.

我们周四有一期和他的节目。这是Doge成员首次获准进行的长篇对话，而且终于被允许了。其中一个根本问题是：政府在试图提高效率时，内部被官僚主义的繁文缛节束缚到什么程度？硅谷那种Notion模板、Slack和Zapier自动化集成的思维方式，能在多大程度上应用？你能用Zapier集成多少流程？能用Vibe Code优化多少？

We got an episode with him on Thursday. It's the first long form conversation anybody from Doge has been permitted to have, and it's been like, it's okay to happen. And this is one of the kind of the fundamental questions, which is how tied up in bureaucratic red tape fuckery is the inside of the government when it comes to trying to make things more efficient, And how much can you take the Silicon Valley mindset of Notion templates and Slack and and if this, then that, Zapier fucking integrations? How much can you Zapier integrate your way through, like, Vibe Code? How much can you Vibe Code Yeah.

让政府变得高效？对。又有多少是那些僵化的、核桃木书架、红木真皮切斯特菲尔德沙发式的狗屁在碍事？我觉得这会

The government into efficiency? Yeah. And how much of it is this ossified, walnut shelved, mahogany, leather, fucking Chesterfield sofa bullshit that's getting in the way? And I think that's gonna

还有多少是因为那本身就是不完美处境下的最佳解决方案？你是否具备谦逊、开放和同理心去理解其存在的合理性？

be And then and and then how much of it is there because that is the best solution to an imperfect situation? And do you have the humility and the openness and the the empathy to understand that that's why it is that way?

这是否意味着智慧增长的同时，谦逊的举止也会随之而来？随着你越明智，谦逊的程度也会增加。

Does that suggest that along with wisdom comes a humble comportment, sort of gets brought in for the ride as well, that an amount of humility grows with the more that you are wise.

我想是的。爱比克泰德说过，在通往智慧的道路上取得进步的标志之一，就是你参与的争论变少了。这并不意味着你要总是退让或没有核心价值观，而是你理解了别人为何那样想。

I think so. I think so. You know, Epictetus said one of the signs that you're making progress in the path to wisdom is that you get in fewer arguments. And and I don't think that means that you, you know, just roll over all the time or that you, you know, you have no core values. It's just you understand, well, this is why they think what they think.

你知道吗？随着年龄增长，我对那些无关紧要的事确实有了更少的看法。我对他人看法的看法也变少了——因为他们是对的。

You know? As I get older, I have I I certainly do have fewer opinions about shit that I don't think actually matters. Right? I have I have fewer opinions as I get older about other people's opinions. Because they're right.

他们喜欢那样。而我却耗费大量精力试图解释他们不该喜欢那个，好像这能改变什么或有什么意义似的。斯多葛主义追求的就是这种顺畅的生活状态。现在，你可以通过远离生活中大部分争议和复杂的部分来达到这种顺畅状态。对吧？

They like that. And I'm spending a lot of my energy trying to explain why they shouldn't like that as if it changes or means anything. And so stoicism was this idea of getting to a smooth flow of life. Right now, you can get to a smooth flow of life by removing yourself from most of the contentious and complicated parts of life. Right?

如果你住在太平洋中部的小岛上且不工作，确实能过上顺畅的生活。对吧？比如你永远不用为钱发愁，不用努力完成任何事，对任何事都漠不关心。

You can have a smooth flow of life if you live on an island in the middle of the Pacific and you don't work. Right? Like, you never have to worry about money. You're not trying to do anything trying to accomplish anything. You don't care about anything.

靠感觉活着很容易。但当你试图在竞技场中成就、行动和贡献时，还能保持生活顺畅吗？

It's pretty easy to live on vibes. Can you get to a smooth flow of life in the arena, right, as you're trying to accomplish and do and contribute?

这就好比你可以对着准备好的提词器和背后的幻灯片做现场演讲。但你能在刚下飞机十二分钟、毫无准备的情况下做到吗？

That's same as you can do your live talk with a fully scripted out comfort monitor in front of you and slides behind you. You do it when there's no presentation and you've just got off a plane twelve minutes ago?

当然，你可以做到。如果每次都这么顺利自然没问题，但现实不会总如人意。

Well, you can have it. If it always goes that way, you'll be fine, but it's not always gonna go that way.

某种程度上与脆弱性相关

Kind of fragility associated

因此韧性、适应力，以及在不理想环境中与不理想的人共事时仍能运作、贡献和表现的能力，才是关键。嗯。我认为这是需要长期培养的技能。我们稍后再谈

with that. And so resilience, adaptability, you know, being able to function and contribute and perform is the ability to to work in less than ideal environments with less than ideal people. Mhmm. And and that's, I think, a skill you cultivate and develop over time. We'll get back

稍后再聊，但首先，有些事物专为夏日而生。晒伤、辣妹散步、前任晒欧洲自驾游，现在还有柠檬盐口味。Element刚推出了全新柠檬盐风味，正是炎热天气里你渴望的一切——酸爽、咸鲜、清凉到不可思议。就像成人版的柠檬棒冰，但风味背后更有真材实料。因为咱们实话实说——

to talking in just a minute, but first, some things are built for summer. Sunburns, hot girl walks, your ex posting their Euro road trip, and now lemonade and salt. Element just dropped their brand new lemonade salt flavor, and it's everything that you want on a hot day, tart, salty, and stupidly refreshing. It's like a grown up lemonade stand in a stick with actual function behind the flavor. Because let's be real.

如果你在锻炼时大汗淋漓，或是在桑拿房，甚至只是七月份走向停车场的路上，你流失的远不止水分。Element补充你身体真正需要的电解质——钠、钾、镁，零糖零添加零废话。我在德州酷暑中坚持每天饮用多年，这柠檬风味冰水简直好喝到难以置信。最棒的是他们提供无限期无理由退款政策，你可以买来想试多久就试多久。

If you're sweating through workout, sauna sessions, or just walking to your car in July, then you are losing more than just water. Element replaces the electrolytes that your body actually needs, sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no sugar, no junk, and no nonsense. I've been drinking it every single day for years, and in the Texas heat, this lemonade flavor in a cold glass of water is unbelievably good. Best of all, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So you can buy it and try it for as long as you want.

若因任何原因不满意，他们都会退款，连包装盒都不用寄回。这就是他们的底气，但你绝对会爱上。美国境内还免运费。现在通过下方描述栏链接或访问drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom首次购买，就能免费获赠Element最受欢迎风味的尝鲜套装。

And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back. You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are, but you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in The US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

网址是drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom。既然我们身处追求捷径的现代文化，你如何说服人们智慧值得经历漫长而艰辛的求索？

That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. Given that we've got modern culture of shortcuts, life hacks, how do you convince people that wisdom is worth a long, uncomfortable path?

关键在于人生某个时刻你总会需要它，对吧？你会面临棘手的抉择，遭遇艰难时刻，经历某些困境，深陷某种处境。

The thing is at some point in your life, you're gonna need it. Right? You're gonna come to some vexing decision, some challenging moment. You're gonna go through something. You're gonna be in the middle of something.

到那时你会渴望能调用智慧。而这些智慧本应早早积累。临阵磨枪为时已晚，来不及速成所需的一切，也培养不出解决眼前问题所需的元能力。所以你现在是否在为此准备？

And in that moment, you're gonna wanna have wisdom to draw on. Right? Wisdom that needed to be accumulated a long time ago. It will be too late in that moment for you to do the crash course to figure out all the things that you need to do, to develop the meta skills you need to solve this problem in front of you. And so are you doing the work now?

对我而言这才是核心问题。关于智慧我们至少能达成一点共识：它不是与生俱来的。固然有人更睿智，但没人天生就——

To me, that's the question. I I think one of the things we can all agree about wisdom on about wisdom is that it's not something you're born with. There's certainly people who are wiser than others, but I don't think any of them came out

子宫就是那样。这正是它与原始智力或计算能力不同的地方。

of the womb that way. Which is what distinguishes it from something like raw intelligence Yes. Compute power.

是的。智慧是随时间积累的。如果你想在未来汲取智慧，现在该做哪些积累？这就是你对智慧的投资。塞内卡讲过一个故事，我认为它正好说明了那些关于捷径、速成法以及对能告诉你一切所需知识的导师的盲目崇拜。

Yeah. Wisdom is something you accumulate over time. And so if you're gonna wanna draw on it in the future, what are the deposits you're making now? So that that's the investment that you make in wisdom. There's a story Seneca tells us, and I think it goes to this very idea of hacks and shortcuts and the the fetishizing of of of, like, gurus and teachers who can just tell you everything you need to know.

看这个视频，我会告诉你所有你需要知道的，或者来参加这个研讨会。他讲到一个想显得聪明的罗马人。这个罗马人本可以去上课，读上百本书，亲身经历各种事情，但他却选择购买了许多博学的奴隶。

Watch this video and, you know, I'll tell you everything you need to know or, you know, come to this seminar. He talks about this this Roman who wanted to be seen as smart. And so, you know, the Roman could have gone to classes. The Roman could have read hundreds of books. The Roman could have experienced things, and instead, this guy acquires number a of wealthy slaves or sorry.

这个富有的罗马人买了一批学识渊博的奴隶，每人精通不同领域。在宴会上，他们会在他耳边低语他需要知道的东西。于是大家都觉得他很聪明，他也自以为得计，直到有人问他：'这派对真棒，你喜欢这种机智对答。有没有想过参加摔跤比赛？'

This wealthy Roman acquires a number of very literate slaves, each one like an expert on a different topic. And at dinner parties, they would, you know, whisper in his ear the things that he needs to know. And so everyone kind of thinks he's very smart, and the guy thinks he's getting away with it. He thinks he's figured out this shortcut until one of the men comes up to him and says, you know, hey. This is a great party.

他回答：'摔跤？我都老了，为什么要参加？'对方说：'但看看你的奴隶多年轻。'意思是：这事他们可代劳不了。

You're very you know, love this repartee. He says, have you ever thought of of taking up wrestling, competing in a wrestling competition? He goes, wrestling? I'm like an old man. Why would I do that?

我们常误以为人工智能是神奇的变革性存在，因为它包含所有知识。但你仍需要知道该问什么问题，仍要能区分真实答案和它胡编乱造的答案。

And he says, but look at how young your slaves are. The point is, like, they can't do that for you also. And and I think we we are under the impression, for instance, that, like, artificial intelligence is this magical transformative thing because it contains all this knowledge. But but you still have to know what questions to ask it. You still have to be able to separate the good answers from the hallucinated, nonsensical answers.

对吧？它能告诉你'哦，你说的那句话出自这本书'，但前提是你得知道那句话是什么。

Right? It can tell you, you know, oh, yeah. That quote you're talking about, it's in this book. But you have to know what that quote is. Right?

你必须大致了解它是什么，而这只能通过实际工作来实现。它能帮你解决一些问题。但如果你无法区分好方案与坏方案，或是辨别胡言乱语与真知灼见，那它对你就没什么帮助。我觉得人们总在寻找某种神奇之物，好让自己免于做这件艰难的事，但这几乎从未奏效。你

You have to know some vaguely know what it is, and and you can really only do that from the work. It can help you solve some problems. But if you can't recognize a good solution from a bad solution or a bullshit from from from from a real insight, it's not gonna do much for you. And I I think people think that people are always looking for some magical thing that will exempt them from having to do this really hard thing, and it almost never works. Do you

知道那个关于司机知识的故事吗？可能是理查德·费曼，或是二十世纪其他著名物理学家？他反复进行同一场演讲，而他的司机每场都在场。久而久之，司机几乎能把整场演讲背下来了。

know that story about chauffeur knowledge? Is this Richard Feynman, maybe, or somebody else's famous physicist in the nineteen hundreds? And he was going around giving the same lecture and over and over again, and his chauffeur was there at every single lecture that he gave. Yeah. And after a while, the chauffeur basically knew the lecture off by heart.

于是他说：嘿，要是哪天我们互换身份会很有趣吧？你上台演讲，我扮成司机。结果这人上台后完美复刻了原版的演讲。结束时有人提问说：抱歉，关于这点我想请教...

And he said, hey. Wouldn't it be funny if one day we swapped and you went up and I'll dress as the chauffeur and you'll come in. And this guy goes up, and he gives the lecture, and it's perfect. The exact same way that the guy that was supposed to do And somebody at the end asks a question and says, excuse me. I I I just need to ask you about this.

这个问题对我来说太难了。你得问我的司机——然后指向真正的学者。

Is a question that's far too difficult for me. You're gonna have to ask my chauffeur and turns to the chauffeur that's the real guy.

没错，死记硬背不等于真正掌握。Naval年初来节目时说过...

Yeah. To know by heart is not to know. Well, Naval Naval came on the show at the start of

一个精妙的观点：表现得智慧与真正智慧存在巨大差异。人们容易陷入死记硬背的诱惑，那只能制造智慧的假象。就像引用比我聪明之人的见解会显得很有智慧，

the year and just this lovely idea, which is there is a big difference between appearing wise and being wise. Mhmm. And the temptation to rote memorize things that give the allure the illusion of wisdom. Yeah. Like, this looks like being wise because it is an insight that someone far smarter than me came up with.

当然，能复述出来也不全是坏事。重点在于：我确实理解并掌握了这个概念。

Sure. The difference between being able to put that out and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's like, right. Okay. I I understand and have retained the concept.

这是个非常好的开始，因为如果不理解并记住它，写下来、写下来、写下来，你根本不会真正掌握。所以第一步很棒。但能用三种不同方式解释它意味着什么？能在生活中应用它意味着什么？当情绪激动时能领悟到那个洞见又意味着什么？

That's a very good first start because without understanding it and retaining it, write down, write down, write down, you don't know it at all. So great first step. But what does it mean to be able to explain it three different ways? What does it mean to be able to apply it in your life? What does it mean to see that insight when you're gripped by emotion?

是的。没错。能意识到这个观点中蕴含的洞察或真理内核已经难能可贵。但真正理解它则是下一步。这正是阅读学习、接触思想与亲身体验之间相互作用如此重要的原因。

Yes. Yeah. To even recognize that there was a kernel of insight or truth in the idea is no is not nothing. But then, yeah, to really know it is the next thing. And this is where the interplay between reading and study and exposing yourself to ideas and then having experiences is so important.

这也是为什么这是个循环过程——有些读物比如叙事类非虚构作品或游记，读一遍就觉得自己理解了论点，知道该汲取什么。但许多伟大文本如文学、哲学、戏剧、诗歌等，你需要反复阅读、经历、再阅读，因为每个视角——尤其是随时间推移——都能让你从中解锁新的东西。马修·麦康纳说他读剧本时会在疲惫时、开心时、宿醉时分别阅读。

And it's also why it's a loop because there are some things, you know, maybe narrative nonfiction or whatever, travel book or something. You read it once, and you're like, I get I get the argument. I get I get what I'm supposed to take from this. And then many of the great texts, literature, philosophy, plays, stories, poems, etcetera, you have to read, have experiences, read again, have experiences, because every vantage point that you look at it from, particularly with the passage of time, allows you to unlock something new in it. McConaughey says when he's reading a script, that he reads it when he's tired, when he's happy, when he's hungover.

没错。他每次重读时...毕竟你没法花五年或二十五年时间回头研读《罪与罚》这类作品。时间有限。那么如何改变自身状态，从而获得不同的视角切入点？

Yeah. And each time that he reads it because you don't have the luxury of taking five or twenty five years to go back to fucking crime and punishment or whatever. Short period. Okay. So how can I change my state so that that different perspective that I'm coming in from, that different vantage point, I get access to?

是的。这样确实...

Yeah. That that makes a

很有道理。有些书...人们会说'哦我读过那本'。但有些书就是为你持续阅读而设计的，它不是已完成的事项，而是正在进行的过程。

lot of sense. The there are books that you there are books, you know, people go, oh, I read that. And it there are books that are designed for you to be reading. It's not a thing you have done. It is a thing you are doing.

嗯。在古代这更容易做到，因为文本总量少。你可能一生中读《奥德赛》五百遍或听人吟诵，毕竟没有其他重要作品可选。而我们拥有整个人类历史的积累。

Mhmm. And this was easier to do in the ancient world because there were just fewer texts. You know? There was fewer you know, you you might read the Odyssey 500 times in the course of your life or hear it exposed because there's not any other, you know, major works to draw on. We have this you know, we have all of human history.

我们拥有古人所不具备的数千年的历史积淀、知识体系、艺术瑰宝和故事传承。这既是我们的福祉，也是我们的诅咒。嗯，我认为这是

We have thousands of years of extra history and knowledge and art and stories that that some of the ancients didn't have. That's our our blessing and our curse. Well, I think that's a

我们正面临一个非常有趣的挑战。很多时候，人们可能自以为清楚自己的身份，却在现代社会中逐渐迷失。我曾通过地理定位确认过自己是谁以及此刻为何在此。然后他们经历了一段漫长的挑战期，失去了某样东西、某个人，或是对自我的信念。

a really interesting challenge that we're facing. A lot of the time, people may have thought they knew who they were, and in the modern world have sort of lost themselves. I I I had geographically triangulated who I am and why I'm here at this point. And then they go through a period of protracted challenge. They lose a thing, a person, a belief in themselves.

如今这种选择悖论——眼前敞开的诸多可能性，加上与过去认知的自我脱节——将他们带到了一个全然未知的港湾。连航船驶向何方都不知晓。那么你觉得智慧的斯多葛学派会如何评价那些在生活中迷失自我的人？

And now this sort of paradox of choice, lots of options open in front of me, plus this unmooring from who they thought they were before, arrives them at a port that they have no idea Yeah. Where the ships sail to. So what do you think a wise stoic would say about somebody who's lost themselves in life?

确实。当你失去一切时，那种感觉既令人解脱——因为所有既定认知都被颠覆；又极度动摇根基——因为你一无所有。我想人们可能会做的一件事，就是回归那些曾经塑造过你的事物。我最近一直在思考重读的书、重温的影视、重新审视的东西。因为现在的我已不同往日，所处之地亦非从前，这些事物带给我的触动也截然不同。

Yeah. It's it it when you when you lose everything, there's something very freeing about that when all your assumptions have been challenged or turned over, and there's something profoundly destabilizing about it because you don't you don't have anything. So I think you go maybe one of the things you do is you go back to those things that were formative to you at one point. And I I've been thinking a lot now about, like, what I'm rereading, what I'm rewatching, what I'm reexamining. Because now that I am different, now that I am in different places, what I what I what strikes me about them is so different.

但重访旧物总带着某种怀旧的美感。比如我第一次读《了不起的盖茨比》时17岁，清楚记得在哪个教室读的，当时觉得什么很重要。现在还能看到当年做的标记。就像琼·狄迪恩那篇著名的日记随笔里写的：为什么我会记录下在宾夕法尼亚州火车站产生的某个念头？

But there is something nostalgic and beautiful about going back to something where you're like, well, I knew who I was when I read a great Gatsby for the first time because I was 17, and I know exactly what class I was in and what I thought was important. And I can I can look here and see what I marked? Like, Joan Didion has this famous essay about journaling. And she says, you know, why did I record a thought that I had at a train station journaling. In Pennsylvania?

为什么我会记下餐厅里偶然听到的对话？为什么写下这个或那个？为什么要讲这个故事？她从五岁就开始写日记。有一天她对母亲说觉得无聊，

Why did I write down this thing that I overheard someone say in a restaurant? Why did I write down this or that? Why did I tell this story? And she'd been journaling since she was five years old. Her mother gave her she told her she told her mother she was bored one day.

她母亲就给了她一个笔记本说：'为什么不写个故事呢？这样你就有东西可读了'。于是她终其一生都在做笔记。在那篇著名的《论笔记本》中她自问：我为什么要这么做？是像职业人士的名片夹那样吗？

And Joan Didion's mother said, well, here's a notebook. Why don't you write a story, and then you can have something to read? And so she'd been taking notes for for her whole life. In And this famous essay on notebook, she says, well, why did I why why do I do this? Is it a professional, like, Rolodex?

这是不是就像，某天我会找到一个故事来放这句话？然后她说，不，这必须不止于此。她说，写日记的目的是为了与过去的自己保持联系。她说，这就是它的意义。

Is this like, someday I'll find a story to put this quote in? And then she said, no. That's that's it's gotta be more than that. She says, the purpose of journaling is to keep on nodding terms with who I used to be. She's like, that's what it is.

它是为了记住——它是为了记住过去的自己。写日记有一种非常强大的力量。比如，我每天写一个五行的日记本。每五年，我会换一本新的。你要写下那天你在哪里、在做什么、五年前或那天你在想什么。

It's to remember to it's it's to remember who I used to be. And there's something very powerful about journaling. Like, I have this journal that I do every day where it has five lines on it. And, you know, so every five years, I do a new one. But you write, like, where you were on that day, what you're doing, what you were thinking about five years ago or that that day.

然后你年复一年地这样做。第一年感觉挺酷，第二年也挺酷。但到了第三、第四、第五年，它就变得非常有力，因为你会想，哦，2022年9月，我当时在想这个。那感觉非常紧迫重要，或者又显得有点傻和奇怪。所以她的观点是，写日记让我们做的不仅仅是记录某事，而更像是用手机拍照时前后摄像头同时工作。

And then you do it the next year and the next year and the next year. And the first year, it's kinda cool, and the second year, it's kinda cool. But by three, four, and five, it's very powerful because you're like, oh, you know, in September 2022, this is what I was thinking about. And that feels very urgent and important, or that feels, like, silly and weird. And and so her her point was that that what journaling allows us to do is not just write down and record something, but it's almost like it's like taking a picture on your phone and both cameras are working.

它既拍下你看到的东西，也拍下正在看的你。而关键在于哪一个才是真正更值得捕捉的画面。对吧？我认为写日记作为一种实践，非常有助于避免那些灵魂的黑夜——我不知道我是谁，不知道这一切意味着什么，不知道发生了什么——因为你确实知道发生了什么。你一直在逐步观察和记录它。

It's taking the picture of what you're looking at, and it's taking the picture of you as you're looking at it. And it depends on which of those is actually the more important image to capture. Right? And I think journaling as a practice is very helpful to prevent some of those dark nights of the soul, I don't know who I am, I don't know what any of this means, I don't know what happened, because you do know what happened. You've been monitoring it and tracking it incrementally as you go.

我在想，元教训是否也是：没有什么事情像你想象中那么重要，除了

I wonder whether the meta lesson as well is nothing as is as important as you think it is apart

当你正在思考它的时候。是的。就像当你陷入沉思循环、担忧、绝望、抑郁、焦虑、忧虑的那一刻——虽然人们在这种时候往往不会写日记——还有狂喜、

from when you're thinking about it. Like Yes. Like, that moment when you are caught up in the rumination cycle, the worry, the despair, the depression, the anxiety, the concern, and and although people unfortunately don't tend to journal when this is happening, the elation,

虚张声势、过度自信。是啊。这一切的转瞬即逝。就像佛陀说的——这个故事是说，世界上最智慧的哲学家被要求找出一句在任何情况下都真实、过去现在未来都适用的话。嗯。

the bravado, the overconfidence. Yeah. The ephemerality of all of it. Like, this is from Buddha, but but this the story is, you know, the wisest philosopher in the world was asked to find a phrase that's true in any and every situation and always has been and always will be true. Mhmm.

而回应我们的答案是：这一切终将过去。你知道，悲伤如此，非凡的胜利如此，绝望如此，幸福与折磨亦如此。

And what the answer that comes back is, and this too shall pass. And and, you know, that can be true of grief. That can be true of, you know, an incredible triumph. It can be true of despair. Can be true of happiness, torture.

所有事物的持续时间都比你以为的要短，最终都会结束。就像斯多葛学派说的，无论以何种方式结束。当你感到剧痛、疾病或其他痛苦时，你可以自信地告诉自己：这终将结束——要么痛苦会杀死你，要么它会消失。对吧？

All of it lasts long less long than you think it does, and eventually, it all does end. Like, it ends one way or another, the Stoics say. Like like you're the Stoics say, like, when you're feeling, like, profound pain or, like, sickness or whatever, you can say confidently to yourself, this is going to end. Either because it's going to kill you or it's gonna go away. Right?

有时只有跳脱出来，从更宏观的角度审视自己的生活，你才会意识到这是真理；再放眼历史长河，你会恍然大悟：啊，这对每个曾经活着的人都成立。我最近在读《坚不可摧》讲赞佩里尼的故事。嗯。

And and sometimes it's only zooming out and getting a little perspective on your own life that you realize this is true, and then zooming out and looking at things historically that you realize, oh, this has always been true for every person who has ever lived. I was reading Unbroken about Zamperini. Mhmm.

我还没读过那本，但我最喜欢的故事类型是个人或群体对抗逆境的。《忍耐》阿尔弗雷德·兰辛著，《被遗忘的高地人》阿拉斯泰尔·厄克特著。

And I'd never read that, so my favorite stories are kind of solo or group people against the odds. Yeah. Endurance by Alfred Lansing, Forgotten Highlander by Alastair Urquhart.

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Right.

那本书也吸引了你。《坚不可摧》，劳拉·希伦布兰德著，嗯，讲路易斯·赞佩里尼的。我上次跟你说过，至今还没有人写出本像样的斯托克代尔传记吧？

That got you on too. And Unbroken, Laura Hillebrand Mhmm. By about Louis Zamperini. And I said this to you last time. No one's done a good Stockdale book yet, have they?

我正在筹备呢。不会吧。嗯。

I'm in the works. No way. Mhmm.

我们他妈的上吧，兄弟。

Let's fucking go, dude.

我大概读了三个章节。我...我已经...那将是下一个...这就是智慧之一，然后那是下一个。我...太完美了。他的故事简直难以置信。比你能想象的还要精彩得多。

I'm I'm maybe three chapters in. I I've I've been That's gonna be the next That's one of wisdom is this, and then that's that's the next one. I've I So perfect. His story is fucking incredible. Like, so much better than you would think it is.

我觉得人们以为我们对斯托克代尔很痴迷？是的。没错。来吧。对于不了解的人，斯托克代尔是在北越上空被击落的。

Like, I think people think we nerd out about Stockdale? Yeah. Yeah. Bring it. So for people who don't know, Stockdale shot down over North Vietnam.

他基本上在所谓的'河内希尔顿'度过了七年，期间遭受酷刑。大部分时间被单独监禁，遭受非人折磨。关键在于理解，这实际上比《坚不可摧》的故事更具震撼力，因为赞佩里尼——我发音对吗——只是个普通战俘对吧？

He spends basically seven years in what's called the Hanoi Hilton where he's tortured. He spends the vast majority of that time in solitary confinement, horrendously tortured. Okay. So the key to understand like, it's not it's it's actually a much more powerful story than even unbroken because Zampirini, I think I'm saying that right, is is your ordinary prisoner of war. Right?

他是被扣押的敌方战斗人员。而斯托克代尔实际上是在一个再教育监狱里。

He is an enemy combatant held against his will. Right? Mhmm. So Stockdale is in effectively a reeducation prison. Right?

他们的任务就是摧毁这些人，把他们变成宣传工具。但关键要知道，斯托克代尔在东京湾事件当晚就在空中。他在越南战争初期就在场——那场始于虚假借口的战争。几个月后他被击落时，他对自己说：'我要进入爱比克泰德的世界了'。他不仅将被囚禁见不到家人，更掌握着最可怕的秘密——比知道核密码还致命——他的俘虏最想知道的莫过于他亲眼目睹了真相。

Like, the the job is to to take these people to break them and to turn them into propaganda assets. But the thing you need to know about Stockdale is Stockdale is in the air the night of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. So Stockdale is there at the beginning of the Vietnam War, which has begun under effectively false pretenses. So when he is shot down several months later, he's he's parachuting into this camp and he says to himself, you know, I'm entering the world of Epictetus. He's not just gonna be held captive and not seen his family for, you know, however long, he possesses the most terrible secret that you could possibly possess other than perhaps knowing the nuclear codes or the you know, like, there isn't a secret that his captors would have been more motivated to know than to know that he was in the air and watched them effectively.

他说'我们是在对幽灵开火，那里什么都没有'。因为北越知道无法军事取胜，必须在国际舆论法庭上获胜。想象他们若能策反一个目睹祖国犯错的美军飞行员...这种'突破'不是简单透露航母运作方式或F16弱点那么简单。

He says we were shooting at ghosts, that there was nothing there, that because the the North Vietnamese know that they cannot win militarily. They have to win in the court of global public opinion. So imagine they were to come in possession of a pilot who was there, who who saw his country do something wrong, and imagine they could flip this person. So breaking isn't like, oh, hey. Let me tell you, like, how a US aircraft carrier works, or let me tell you, like, the secret vulnerable spots on the f 16.

他掌握着最重要、最关键的秘密和信息。所以，他拥有一种非常特殊的

He possesses the most significant secret of and and, you know, piece of information. So, like, he has a very special sort of

炮弹藏在他的大脑里。是的。那些特别想要这种武器的人可以部署它。

artillery shell hidden inside of his brain. Yeah. And that can be deployed by people who would really like that specific weapon.

或者想象一下他所承受的道德重压。他不是那种飞越纳粹德国被击落后落入史上最恶之人手中的飞行员。他是会死去的那个人。他没有反抗——这是一场道德上极其复杂的战争。

Or just imagine the moral weight of what he is dealing with. So he's not it's not like he is, you know, flying over Nazi Germany, and he gets shot down, and he's being held by the worst people of all time. He's one who dies. He is he is he is not fighting it's a it's it's it's a morally complicated war.

他没有纯粹的道德高地可以立足。

Doesn't have pure virtue to stand on top of.

是的。而且他

Yes. And he

因此他必须承受这份重担。这是个岌岌可危的立场。

and so he has to bear the weight of this. It's a flimsy position to hold.

那么他究竟在坚持什么？他坚持的是'我是我兄弟的守护者'这个信念——如果他背叛祖国，真正背叛的是那200名战俘、其他应征士兵和军官。他担心的不是保护林登·约翰逊，而是隔壁牢房的人。

And so what is he what is he holding on to? He's holding on to this idea that he is his brother's keeper, and that if he betrays his country, who he's really betraying is the other 200 or so prisoners and then all the other draftees and officers. He's betraying he's he's not worried about protecting Lyndon Johnson. Right? He's worried about the person in the cell next to him.

所以这家伙所承受的心理挣扎、道德创伤和重担，细想起来简直难以想象

And so the the the the mental gymnastics and the moral injury and weight that this guy has is unfathomable if you think about

他所经历的困境。看看《被遗忘的高地人》中的阿利斯泰尔·厄克特，连续四年痢疾、死亡行军、桂河大桥等等，被关在铁皮箱里，还因长崎原子弹爆炸的冲击波被掀翻在地。

what he's dealing with. When you look at Alistair Urquhart from the Forgotten Highlander, dysentery for four years straight, forced march, bridge over the River Kwai, etcetera etcetera, locked in a tin box, knocked off his feet by the bomb blast from Nagasaki.

没错。硬核至极。这简直就像攀登珠穆朗玛峰，纯粹是你与自然元素的对抗，你与...

Yeah. Hardcore shit. That's like the equivalent of just climbing Mount Everest, which is just you versus the elements, you versus the the

那种消耗战只存在于单一维度。对。你所说的斯托克代尔面临的，更像是某种超验的业力挑战。

Battle of attrition that's on this sort of one plane of existence. Yes. What you're saying that Stockdale had was this, like, astral Yes. Karmic challenge that he's also fighting with.

是啊。说到现在，我一直对他童年经历很着迷。后来他在海军学院时——这是我最近了解到的——当他高年级时，有个叫韦斯·布朗的人，后来成为海军学院首位黑人毕业生，当时也在那里。

Yeah. And and yeah. So far, I've been fascinated by his childhood. And then when he's at the naval academy, and this is what I've been learning out about. So when he's at the naval academy, when he's a senior, the first man, his name is Wes Brown, who would go on to be the first black graduate of the Naval Academy is also there.

他实际上就是海军版的杰基·罗宾逊。而斯托克代尔作为努力求学的年轻学员，亲眼目睹这个人经历的可怕磨难。他们甚至不得不给布朗配备警卫，因为担心其他学员会杀害他。学院还持续策划要给韦斯·布朗记过，好把他开除避免其毕业成为海军军官——在此之前整个历史上只有约十名黑人军官。

So he's the Jackie Robinson effectively of the Navy. And as Stockdale is this young student who's just trying to get ahead, he's watching this other guy go through this horrendous ordeal. Like, he had to have basically guards on him because they were worried other midshipmen might kill him. He there was a a sustained campaign to give this guy, Wes Brown, demerit so he could get kicked out of the academy so they wouldn't have to graduate him, then he wouldn't become a naval officer. There had only been, like, 10 naval officers in history black officers in history before this happened.

于是他目睹另一个人经历着——某种程度上——二十年后他自己要遭遇的事：一场旨在摧毁人格的持久战。嗯。粉碎你的灵魂。对吧？监狱里的拷问者不只是想用断水断粮来测试囚犯是否会背叛祖国...

So he's watching another person go through effectively what he has to go through twenty years later, a sustained campaign to break you as a person Mhmm. And crush your soul. Right? That's what the the captors in the prison are not just trying to go, hey. If we don't give them food and water, you know, will they turn on their country?

他们试图摧毁他们作为人的意志。你知道，他们在折磨他们，玩心理游戏。而斯托克代尔最著名的事迹是，他被连续折磨数日后，对方突然转变态度。他们说，好了。

They're trying to break them as human beings. You know, they're torturing them. They're playing mind games. And his famous thing, Stockdale, is tortured for days on end, and then they basically, in a moment, they switch. And they go, okay.

太过分了，我们把你逼得太紧了，我们很抱歉。不如你去洗手间整理一下，然后回牢房吧？而他意识到他们绝不会无缘无故对他好。

It's too much. We've we've pushed you too far. We're sorry. Why don't you go to the bathroom, clean yourself up, you can go back to your cell? And he realizes that they would never give him anything for free.

他们绝不会出于任何原因善待他。所以他意识到，哦，他们想让我整理仪容肯定有原因。他明白他们即将让他在镜头前亮相，想让他录制视频声明。也许他甚至感觉到他们知道他掌握的情报。

They would never be nice to him for any reason. So he realized, oh, there must be a reason they wanna clean me up. And he realizes they're about to to parade him in front of the cameras. They want him to give a videotaped statement. Maybe they maybe he's even sensing in this moment that they know what he knows.

于是此刻他走进洗手间。他说自己知道只有一分钟时间。他开始用凳子把自己的脸打得血肉模糊，然后他割破——他打碎镜子，基本上算是剥掉了自己的头皮。他给自己剃了个他称之为'反向莫西干头'的发型。

And so at this moment, he walks into the bathroom. He says he knew he had about a minute in there. And he begins to beat his face to a bloody pulp with the stool, and then he cuts. He shatters the mirror, and he he basically scalps himself. Like, he cuts he gives himself what he calls a reverse mohawk.

他就用这块碎玻璃，把后脑勺的头发连带头皮一起割掉。他让自己变得面目全非。是的，他浑身是血。然后他们就进来了。

He just takes this jagged and he cuts it off the back of his head. He basically makes himself unspeakable. Yeah. He's bleeding everywhere. And and it's like they come in.

他们以为他要自杀，但他并没有。他只是

They think he's trying to kill himself, and he hasn't. He's just

把自己毁容了。

Mamed himself.

他自残了，所以没法拍摄。不值得报道。是啊。然后他们就说，你知道，我们该怎么办？我们本该带你进城的。

Maimed himself, so he is unfilmable. Not press worthy. Yeah. And and they go, you know you know, what are we supposed to do? We were supposed to take you downtown.

然后他说，你去告诉少校指挥官不会进城。于是他就带着这种，你知道的，那种决心、坚韧和强烈意志，当你意识到他手里拿着什么以及他经历了什么时，这一切就呈现出完全不同的色彩。嗯。而且他意识到，是的，这关乎他与这些人的联系，我觉得这很有趣——你在寻找这些线索时会发现，哦，这是你38岁时坚信的东西。

And and he goes, you tell the major that the commander won't be going downtown. And and so he has this, you know, sort of this, like, this determination and this grit and this intensity that takes on a whole different color when you realize what he's holding and what he's been through. Mhmm. And that that he realizes that, yeah, it it's about his connection to these people, which I think is interesting what I'm you find these threads. You go, oh, this is something that you believe at 38.

然而，他在战俘营时已年近四十。现在他是指挥官。而他在海军学院20岁时根本不相信这些。他没有参与对韦斯·布朗的欺凌，但众所周知，来自南方腹地的吉米·卡特是他们同届学员。吉米·卡特还和他们一起跑越野赛。

However, he's in his late thirties when he's in this camp. Now he's a commander. That he fundamentally didn't believe when he was 20 at the Naval Academy. He doesn't participate in the hazing of this of this guy, Wes Brown, but, like, famously, Jimmy Carter, who's, like, from the Deep South, is in their class. And Jimmy Carter runs cross country with them.

吉米·卡特是出了名的支持者。这个在种族隔离的南方长大的男人在那里帮助鼓励这个人，而斯托克代尔只顾忙自己的事。所以我很好奇：这个人如何从年轻时'我只关心自己和自己的事'的自私状态——爱让你专注所爱，没空管其他——

And Jimmy Carter is famously this supporter. A guy who grows up in the segregated South is there helping and encouraging this guy, and Stockdale's too busy doing his own thing. And so I'm fascinated in how does this person go from selfish in the way that when we're young, we're all, I'm into me and my thing and what I'm trying to do. Love makes good you love. I don't have time for this other stuff.

你知道吗？就像，如果我不为我自己，谁会为我？嗯。嗯。而到最后他变成了：如果我只为我自己，那我算什么？

You know? Like, if not if I am not for me, who is? Mhmm. Mhmm. And then he becomes by the end, if I am only for me, who am I?

这就是斯托克顿的成长弧线。这就是我正在写的书。

And that's the arc of Stockton. That's the book I'm writing.

等不及要看了。我太喜欢了。就是这样。太棒了。我猜追踪阴谋故事需要更紧凑的时间线吧。

Cannot wait for you to do that. I I love it. That's it. That's sick. And I guess conspiracy tracking a story, but it's over, like, a tighter timeline.

对吧？但做了大量调查，到底怎么回事？但这就像是档案材料。这是

Right? But a lot of investigation, what's going on? But this is, like, archive shit. This is

嗯，是的。回到我们最初的话题，我做这本书的原因是因为我从未做过这样的书。是的。而且我很喜欢这类书籍。嗯哼。

Well, yeah. To to go to what we started with, like, the reason I'm doing the book is because I've never done a book like this. Yeah. And I wanted I love those kind of books. Mhmm.

所以这本书可能出版后一本都卖不出去。可能出版后所有人都会说我搞砸了、失败了。但我学到了很多。在努力完成这件非我常规工作的事情上，我确实进步了。其实我想提一下

So the book could come out and sell zero copies. The book could come out and everyone could say that I suck and I failed at it. But I have learned a lot. Like, I have I have gotten better at what I actually do in struggling to do this thing, which is not what I normally do. Actually, I I wanna bring up

我记得看过你的一个视频。我想问，你是不是拍了自己接到出版社电话通知登上《纽约时报》畅销书榜单的场景？是上一本书还是上上本？

a video of yours that I remember seeing. I wanna say, did you video yourself getting the call from your publisher about the New York Times list of the last book or the one before?

我想我拍过几次。好吧。我确实知道电话什么时候会打来。

I think I've done it a couple times. Okay. I do know when the call's coming in.

好的。

Okay.

所以可以看着镜头。

So can look on the camera.

是啊，有这么个视频。可能你孩子在场也可能不在。总之你就在那儿跟他们聊天，他们说‘瑞恩，恭喜你，畅销书作家’。

Yeah. There there's there's this video. Maybe maybe your kid's in the room or maybe not. Anyway, and you're you're there, and you're talking to them, and they say, Ryan, just congratulations. Bestseller.

你排名多少来着管他呢。你就说‘非常感谢，很好’。然后基本上就是‘但现在我得回去写下一本书了’。对。

You came in at number whatever the fuck. And you say, thank you very much. That's good. And then basically, but now I must get back to writing the next book. Yes.

我记得我看过那段，你知道，我们这都第七期节目了。第一次上节目大概是六七年前吧。对对对。

And I remember I remember watching that, and, you know, we've met this is episode, like, seven. First time we come on the show was, like, fucking six, seven years ago or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

很久以前了。那时候我还...

Forever ago. Like, when I was still

在...哦这太酷了。我以为你说我生病了。明白了，我懂你意思。

in the Oh, this is sick. I thought you saying I was on sick. Got it. I get I get what you're saying.

所以我大概...我觉得我挺理解你现在的状态。我想问这个是因为，至少从外人角度看，你有点像那种很难停下来庆祝自己成就的人——倒不是说像哲学层面那么浅薄地‘直接开始下一件事’。我不认为是那样。但我确实好奇是不是清教徒式的工作伦理驱使你到这种程度，明明发生了这么好的事，按理说我该放下工作买个蛋糕，挂几条横幅...

So I've got, like, a, you know, a good understanding of sort of, I think, where you're at. I I wanted to ask you about that because that, at least from the outside, looks a little bit like somebody who is struggling to take a moment to celebrate their accomplishments because not and I wouldn't I wouldn't say that it's as philosophically shallow as I'm just moving on to the next thing. Yeah. I don't think it's that. But I do wonder whether there is a Puritan work ethic driving you to the point where this thing that happened that's great that by all accounts, I probably should put the fucking buck down, get some cake, and allow my like, put the put a couple of banners up.

我知道横幅很俗。点些蜡烛搞个小仪式庆祝下。是因为...我特别感兴趣的是，对斯多葛主义常见的批评就是缺乏对美好事物的庆祝，这种对情绪的漠然在困境中很好，但在顺境中就像戴着避孕套做爱，像是对所有快乐都采取防护措施。

I know they're shit. Like, light some candles and and have a little thing, have a little celebration. Is that because I'm I'm very interested. One of the criticisms typically of stoicism is sort of a a lack of celebration of the good, this sort of indifference to emotion that is good in times of strife, but kind of like having sex with a condom on in times of, you know, in times of good. It's like a prophylactic against everything Yeah.

不幸的是，包括庆祝活动。你有没有考虑过把避孕套摘下来

Unfortunately, including the celebrations. Did you consider taking the condom off

在某个时候？我...我觉得这里有几件事。谈到智慧，你有时会从年长者那里听到类似这样的话：接受他妈的赞美。懂吗？就像...有时候你会说'哦，不'

at some point? I I there's a couple things there. I think talking about wisdom, one of the things you'll sometimes you can hear from older people is something like, take the fucking compliment. You know? Like like, some you're you're being like, oh, no.

这没什么或我不在乎。而他们会说：不，不，不，我很感激。

It was nothing or I don't care. And they're like, no. No. No. I appreciated it.

你应该接受赞美。我认为这是每个人都应该努力做到的。当有人说他们喜欢某件事，有人说干得好时，要大方接受——你以为是在自谦，实际上是在拒绝，这等于对他们竖中指。是的。

You should take the compliment. And that I think that's something that that everyone should work on. Someone's saying they like something, someone's saying Great job. Be be gracious with it because you think you're being self effacing, but actually you're rejecting It's a middle finger to them. Yes.

没错。而且...我觉得这是我一直努力改进的地方。有些人会看出来。他们会说：好吧。比如你登顶榜首（我有幸做到过几次），然后你就立刻回去工作了。

Exactly. And and I I I think that's something I've I've tried to work on. Some people see that. They go, okay. Like, so you you hit number one, which I've been lucky enough to do a couple times, and and then you just work right back to work.

快乐在哪里？乐趣在哪里？我的答案是：快乐和乐趣不在于为登顶榜首开派对。我喜欢创作过程，我喜欢写书。

Where's the joy? Where's the fun? And my answer is that the joy and the fun is not in throwing a party for hitting number one. I like doing it. I like writing books.

此刻我正在写的这本书所处的阶段，是我最钟爱的状态。我不再处于'这是什么？这能成吗？'的初期阶段，而是深入其中——每天都有充满挑战、令人振奋的问题要解决，然后我取得进展，故事逐渐成型。我在学习，在成长，在做我注定要做的事。

Where I am right now in the book that I am writing is my absolute favorite place to be. I'm not in the early phases of what is this? Is this anything? I'm in the thick of every day there's a challenging, invigorating problem to solve, and then I'm making progress on it, and it's coming together. And I'm learning, and I'm growing, and I'm doing what I am meant to do.

我目前日程安排中最困难的部分是，通常当我上一个项目完成时，我正处在下一个项目最喜爱的阶段。

So one of the hardest parts of the schedule that I am on is that usually my last project is coming out when I'm in my favorite part of the next Right now, which

这就是为什么你对斯托克代尔如此热衷。我们本该讨论的是该死的智慧。

is why you're so fired up about Stockdale when we Yeah. Should be talking about fucking wisdom.

是啊。比如我今天其实只写了大概45分钟，因为先是约了医生，然后来这里，接着要去接人... 实际上我没能做自己喜欢的事。不是说我不喜欢这个活动，这很棒。但我更喜欢创作过程。而且职业生涯早期，像所有人一样，我多少有些外在动机。

Yeah. Like, I I didn't really do I I maybe got, like, forty five minutes of writing done today because I had a doctor's appointment, then I'm here, and then I pick up my so, like, I'm actually not doing the thing that I like to do. Not that I don't like this, that this is amazing. But like, I like doing the thing. That's and and I I think early in my career, like all people, I I I was somewhat extrinsically motivated.

比如我想登上畅销榜。想要听别人说作品很棒。想要获得认可。想要这一切。

Like, I wanted to hit the best sell yep. Bestseller list. I wanted you to say it was amazing. I wanted recognition. I wanted all that.

现在我依然喜欢这些东西，并非觉得它们毫无价值。只是觉得成功带来的奖励不该反成负担。记得2019年我的《静止是关键》首次登顶纽约时报畅销榜时，我正在洛杉矶进行图书巡演，闹钟响起...

And I I still do like those things, and I'm not shrugging them off as nothing. It's just I just feel like the reward for succeeding should not be taking away from it. Like, I'll tell you, like, my first the first time I hit the New York Times bestseller list, stillness is the k d stillness is the key debuted at number one in 2019. And I remember I woke up. I was in LA on book tour, and I could I you know, my alarm goes off my phone.

我有条原则：醒来第一件事不看手机。但在旅途中很难做到，对吧？

And one of my rules, I don't check my phone the first thing that I do when I wake up because I I try to But that's difficult on the road. Right? Because Yeah.

没错。你完全就是个手机闹钟依赖者。

Exactly. You're you're an alarmist. Phone is the alarm.

就是，你知道，你拿起手机，感觉好像发生了什么事。懂吗？我能感觉到有些事发生了。然后我记得当时

And so so it's like, you know, you pick up your phone, you're like, some stuff has happened. You know? Like, I could tell some stuff has happened. And and and I remember going

嗯。

Yeah.

因为我当时住在洛杉矶运动俱乐部，那是我最喜欢游泳的地方之一，我就想，好吧。这要么是关于书的好消息，要么是坏消息，因为消息来自纽约。对吧？所以我当时在

Because I was staying at the Los Angeles Athletic Club, is one of my favorite places to swim, and I I go, okay. Like, this is either good news or it's bad news about the book because it's coming from New York. Right? So I'm on

西海岸。你那边比纽约晚三个小时。

the West Coast. You're three hours behind.

对。所以我醒来后就想，我要去游个泳。我要通过游泳锻炼。我要在这里做我喜欢的事，消息就是消息。就像，你知道的，薛定谔的猫。

Yeah. So I I woke up, and I was like, I'm gonna go for a swim. I'm gonna swim my exercise. I'm gonna do the thing I love to do here, and the news is the news. It's like, you know, the cat in the box.

对吧？要么我成了畅销书作者，要么没成。是的。无论如何我都该享受这次游泳。所以我去了，游得很畅快，之后查看消息，接到了经纪人、出版商和我妻子的电话，结果很棒。

Right? It's like, I'm either a bestseller or I'm I'm not. Yep. I should get to enjoy the swim either way. And so I went, I had this great swim, and then I checked in, I'd I'd you know, it was a call from my agent and my publisher and my wife, and it was great.

但是，即便结果是

But, like, even if it had Where

你他妈去哪儿了？

the fuck have you been?

我在游泳，自由泳。某种程度上，好消息和坏消息一样都是场灾难。对吧？比如，如果我得到好消息然后去游泳，我就会一直想着那个。活在当下才是礼物。

I was I was swimming, front stroke. In a way, the good news is just as much a catastrophe as the bad news. Right? Like, the the good news if if I get the good news and then I go swimming, I'm just thinking about that the whole time. Like, presence is the gift.

就是享受当下的时刻，做你喜欢的事。我是

Just being in the moment, enjoying the thing is what you like. I am

我要插一句。我讨厌未完成的事。我他妈对此过敏。

gonna interject there. I abhor open loops. I fucking I am allergic.

你就是放不下那个闹钟。

You couldn't leave that alarm.

我正在努力。我知道这是我的一个挑战，不知道这件事的进展会让我睡不着觉，会让我凌晨四点惊醒。就是那种该想别的事时却总想着这个。我会为此困扰。但我也要说，我看过你其他视频，那些随机冒出来的内容。

I'm working on it. And I know I know that it's a I know that it's a a challenge of mine that not knowing what's going on with this thing, to me, is the sort of shit that keeps me awake, the sort of shit that wakes me up at four in the morning. The sort of thing that'll that causes me to be thinking about that when I should be thinking about whatever else. I would struggle with that. And yet, I would say as well, I've seen other videos, like random shit that just pops up from you.

有个视频你在抱怨垃圾。有人在你牧场车道附近丢了一大堆垃圾。还有个关于篱笆桩的视频可能都是五年前的了。我确实记得看到过这些不同的标记，但这不代表全部。只是你选择录制上传，算法选择推送给我的那些我记得的内容。

There's this video you're complaining about trash. Someone had left loads of trash, like, near the driveway to your ranch or something. There was another one about fence posts that might have even been, like, five years ago. And I do remember seeing some of these different way markers, and it's not representative. It's what you've recorded and chosen to put online that the algorithm's chosen to give to me that I can remember.

这里有很多过滤机制。但我确实能感受到某种规范，是的，通过观察你的东西。这种纯粹性中有种奇妙之处，几乎可以说是相辅相成的固执，有人可能会称之为顽固。对吧？

There's a lot of filtering here. But I do get a sense of of, like, regulation Yeah. From from seeing from seeing your stuff. And there is something sort of wonderful in the purity and the almost complementarily the boneheadedness, the stubbornness, some might say. Right?

这些方法中的某些专注程度确实令人惊叹，当然，有些日子我只能投入四十五分钟。但大多数时候，我是个作家、思想家、音乐家，这才是主要的事。而对我来说，关键就是让这件事保持为主要的事。

The the the the single mindedness of of some of these approaches that, sure, some days I'm only gonna get forty five minutes in. But for the most part, like, this is I am a writer. I am a thinker. I am a musician, and this is the main thing. And the main thing is for me to keep that the main thing.

作为那些事情的场边支持者，我发现看到有人——至少从外表看——似乎在努力寻找平衡是件好事：既想享受生活，又想照顾家庭，不愿为追求目标牺牲一切。但既然不愿牺牲一切又想影响世界，我就必须把精力集中在极少数事情上。

And I do find that, you know, as a supporter from the sidelines of that stuff, it is good to see somebody who I think, at least from the outside, appears to be trying to find that balance between I wanna enjoy my life. I I want to care for my family. I don't wanna sacrifice everything in pursuit of the goal. But given that I don't wanna sacrifice everything and I want to make a dent in the world, I have to constrain the aperture of shit that I do down to a really, really, really small number of things.

这很有趣。是的，内容很丰富。我会说规范是生活的关键。对吧？

That's interesting. Yeah. There's a lot there. I I would say regulation is the key to life. Right?

实现情绪调节。这就是斯多葛主义的真谛。人们以为斯多葛主义是消除情感，实则是调节情感。不是没有情感。

Getting emotionally regulate. That's what stoicism is. People think stoicism is the eradication of emotions. It is the regulation of of emotions. It's not having none.

我感到愤怒、沮丧、嫉妒、担忧、焦虑。

It's I'm feeling anger. I'm feeling frustration. I'm feeling envy. I am feeling worry. I'm feeling anxiety.

但我不必冲动地根据这些感受采取行动。那么你如何建立这样的实践：这是我的感受，但这是我要做的事。嗯，对吧？

And I don't have to impulsively act on that information. Right? And so how do you find how do you build the practice of like, this is what I'm feeling, but this is what I'm gonna do. Mhmm. Right?

锻炼作为一种身体实践，是绝佳的隐喻或训练场，因为你可以直面感受：'我现在很累'、'我现在没状态'、'我觉得冷'、'我感觉如何如何'——然后对自己说'但这些他妈的根本不重要'。

Exercise, a physical practice is a great metaphor or training ground for this because you're able to go like, I am feeling tired. I am feeling not into it. I am feeling cold. I am feeling whatever. And you're you're saying to yourself, but that doesn't fucking matter.

关键在于：'接下来你要这样做，明白吗？'那么该如何练习掌控主导权？我认为这非常重要。这是需要终身修炼的能力，而我也在岁月中逐渐精进。

Here's what you're gonna do. Right? And so how do you practice deciding who's in charge? That's, I think, really important. And and it's it's something I think I've gotten better at over time and you you work on throughout your life.

我深知自己能掌控且享受的是行动本身。我尽量不去想与行动无关的事。嗯。写作就是我的热爱所在，是我乐在其中的事。

I think I know that what I control is and what I enjoy is the doing of the thing. And I try to think less about the things that are not related to the doing of the thing. Mhmm. And so writing is what I like. It's what I enjoy.

这是我最为擅长的事，也是我想专注的领域。至于出版成果，不过是坚持修炼后自然产生的副产品罢了。这就是我的思考方式。

It's what I'm best at. That's what I wanna be doing. And then publishing is the stuff that comes out the other side. It's the it's the byproduct of the discipline and whatever. And so that's that's kinda how I think about it.

你提到的'未闭环事项'，我认为这种处理能力是可以培养提升的。比如告诉自己'这件事明天再考虑'，嗯。或者'现在我要专注观看孩子的校园演出'。

Your point about these open loops, I I think that's a capacity you like, again, just it's it's it's a capacity you develop and increase. Like, hey. I'm deciding I'm not gonna think about this until tomorrow. Mhmm. Or I am going to be here for this school performance.

飞机延误多久我就坐等多久；医生说要两周才能出体检报告——那我就不会浪费这两周在焦虑中煎熬。没错。

I'm gonna I'm gonna sit here for this, you know, however long this plane is delayed. I'm gonna they told me I'm not gonna get an answer back on this medical test for two weeks. I'm not going to waste two weeks Speed. Feeling shitty. Yep.

所以该如何做到自主决定思考时机？在我看来这是非常斯多葛派的修行。你需要通过日常小事刻意训练这种能力，才能在重大时刻收放自如

And so how how do you how do you go, I decide when I'm gonna think about it? And to me, that's a very stoic practice. Like and it I think you you you do it in the in you you develop it intentionally over often insignificant things so that in the significant things, you you can

动手吧。说得好。我是说，学会如何摆脱流沙这种技能，我们俩可能一个下午就能掌握。对，我们还可以练习。但如果你已经陷在流沙里才学这个

do it. That's a good point. I mean, the ability to learn how to get out of quicksand is probably something that both of us could work out in an afternoon Yeah. And we could practice it. If you're trying to learn that while you're in quicksand

对。

Yeah.

当然。那样难度会大得多。

Sure. That's going to be significantly more difficult.

而且流沙根本不存在。不是吗？这基本是五十年代西部片的老套路。都是该死的美国电视害的。我的意思是，这就像...我总得提防流沙这种玩意儿。

Also, quicksand doesn't exist. But Is it not? It's basically a trope from westerns in the fifties. I've been by fucking American TV. Well, mean, it it it's one of those things where, like, I gotta be aware of quicksand.

就像...你走遍全世界，可曾亲眼见过流沙？

It's like, have you ever experienced you've been all over the world. Have you ever seen quicksand?