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说到幸福感，嗯。
When it comes to well-being Yeah.
你认为是什么对心理因素或身体因素贡献更大？
What do you think contributes more psychological elements or physical elements?
因为我们体验幸福感，对吧。
Because we experience our well-being Right.
心理上。
Psychologically.
对。
Right.
而且
And
但所有体验都是心理上的，嗯。
but experience everything psychologically Mhmm.
包括我们的身体健康。
Including our physical well-being.
嗯。
Mhmm.
说到幸福感，什么因素更重要？
When it comes to well-being, what contributes more?
心理因素还是生理因素？
Psychological or physical element?
答案是肯定的。
The answer is yes.
因为心理学就是生物学。
Because because psychology is biology.
从根本上说，心理学就是生物学。
Fundamentally, psychology is biology.
那是什么意思？
What's that mean?
这意味着你无法脱离你的大脑。
That means that that you're you cannot disconnect from your brain.
也许人们正在体验某种外部意识，但事实是，你大脑边缘系统全天候产生积极和消极情绪，这完全是生物学现象。
Now perhaps there's some external consciousness that people are experiencing, but but the truth of the matter is that the functioning of the limbic system of your brain, where you're having positive and negative emotions all day long, that's that's that's that's biology.
这是大脑中一个在两千万到四千万年前进化出来的警报系统，用于感知你外部环境的变化。
That's a part of the brain that was evolved between two and forty million years ago as an alert system to what's going on outside of you.
你感知事物、威胁和机遇。
You perceive things, threats and opportunities.
你做出反应。
You react.
你的大脑会以消极和积极的情绪做出反应，从而让你在任何特定时刻感受到快乐或不快乐。
Your brain reacts with negative and positive emotions, which then give you a sense of being happy or unhappy at any at any particular time.
因此，我们应当对消极情绪心存感激，但同时也需要学会如何管理它们。
And so that being the case, we should be very grateful for our negative emotions, but we also need to learn how to manage them.
这是人生的伟大目标。
That's the great goal of life.
成为能够自我管理、自我引领的人，其伟大目标在于：当你处于痛苦状态时，理解痛苦的原因，看清它如何带来收获，你能学到什么，以及如何管理它，使其不会让你失去情绪平衡或摧毁你整个生活质量。
That's the great goal of becoming a self managing, self leading person when you're in a state of suffering to understand why that is, how it can be productive, what you can learn, and how you can manage it such that it doesn't dis dysregulate you or ruin your complete quality of life.
所以如果心理学就是生物学，我们是不是应该直接干预生物学？
So if psychology is biology, should we just attack the biology?
我们干预生物学的方式，是通过理解心理学并以不同的方式行动。
Well, the way that we attack the biology is by understanding the psychology and acting in a different way.
这听起来真的像人类蜈蚣。
It really does sound like the human centipede.
是啊，确实如此。
Yeah, it really is.
是啊，确实如此。
It really is.
不，不是这样的。
No, it's a no.
我的整个哲学就像是一个自己舔自己的冰淇淋蛋筒，因为无论你说生物学，我都说是心理学。
My whole philosophy is sort of a self licking ice cream cone because no matter if you say biology, I say psychology.
是的，是的，但事实是，如果你想成为一个更快乐的人，首先你需要理解科学，这正是我向学生教授幸福科学的原因。
Yeah, yeah, But but the truth of the matter is that once if you wanna become a happier person, the first thing you need to understand is the science, which is the reason that I teach the science of happiness to my students.
我不会去教那些玄学的东西，然后说，你们知道吗，我们为什么不都试着去显化某种幸福呢？
I don't go and teach woo woo and say, you know, here's you know, why don't we all try to manifest some sort of happiness?
就像，不。
It's like, no.
这是你大脑中正在发生的事情。
This is what's going on in your brain.
当你感到悲伤时，实际上是你边缘系统中的背侧前扣带皮层高度警觉地意识到你正在感知一种损失，而这种在你生活中失去所爱之人或事物的反应，在我们祖先生活在30到50人群体环境中的时候是非常正常的。
When you're feeling sad, what's happening is that you've the the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex of your limbic system is highly alerted to the fact that you're perceiving a loss, and that loss in your life of a person or something that you love is a very normal reaction in the in the ancestral environment where we lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals.
被拒绝、经历分手、与乐队成员产生裂痕，意味着你确实面临着独自漫步在冰冻苔原上孤独死去的风险。
To be rejected, to have a breakup, to have a schism with somebody else in your band meant that you're at a a real risk of walking the frozen tundra and dying alone.
你需要对此非常警惕。
You need to be really averse to that.
这就是当你失去所爱之人时会感到悲伤的原因，而你大脑中进化出的某个部分正是为了让你感受这种悲伤。
That's why you feel grief when you're from somebody that you love, and you have a part of your brain that's evolved to make you feel that grief.
而这完全正常。
And that's completely normal.
这是可能发生的事情中最正常的一种。
That's the most normal thing that could possibly happen.
人们发现，说‘我没什么问题’能带来很多安慰。
And people find a lot of comfort in saying, oh, oh, there's nothing wrong with me.
我不需要去治愈什么。
There's not something I need to cure.
这实际上证明了我的大脑正在正常运作，我会好起来的。
That's actually evidence that my brain is working the way that it should, and I'm gonna be okay.
大多数人需要更多的幸福，还是更少的痛苦？
Do most people need more happiness or less unhappiness?
哦，真是个好问题。
Oh, such a good question.
答案真的取决于你是谁。
And the answer is it really depends on who you are.
好吧。
Okay.
让我们稍微退后一步。
So let's back up a little bit.
你刚才做了一个非常重要的区分，即幸福和不幸并不是对立的。
You made a very important distinction right now, which is that happiness and unhappiness are not opposites.
它们不是。
They're not.
长期以来，人们认为不幸是幸福的缺失。
People, for the longest time, thought that unhappiness was a was an absence of happiness.
单一维度，一端是幸福，另一端也是幸福。
Single spectrum with happiness on one end and happiness on the other.
这并不正确。
And it's not true.
我的意思是，这就像黑暗是光的缺失，但不幸并不是幸福的缺失。
I mean, it's it's like darkness is the absence of light, but unhappiness is not the absence of happiness.
相反，支撑幸福和不幸背后的情绪——再次说明，幸福本身并不是一种情绪。
On the contrary, the emotions that are behind happiness and unhappiness, and again, happiness isn't emotions.
情绪是幸福的证据，但它们由大脑的不同区域产生，原因也各不相同。
Emotions are evidence of happiness, but they exist in different they they're produced in different parts of the brain for different reasons.
因此，结果就是你可能同时是一个幸福的人，也是一个非常不快乐的人。
And so the result of it is that you can be person and also a very unhappy person.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
你可以这样，这仅仅意味着你是一个情感强烈的人。
You can and that just means you're a high affect person.
我有一个测试要给大家做。
I have a test that I give.
这是一个关于情感强度的测试，用来衡量你积极和消极情绪的强度。
It's a it's the it's it's a a test of of affect, and that is to see the intensity of your positive and negative emotions.
四分之一的人口在积极和消极情绪上都高于平均水平。
A quarter of the population is above average positive and above average negative.
其余的分布是怎样的？
What's the rest of the split?
其余四个象限是怎么分的？
The split is there's of the other four quadrants?
所以如果25%是这样，那剩下的75%是由什么构成的？
So if 25 of that were what's the rest the of 75% constructed by?
哦，是另外三种类型：积极情绪高于平均水平且消极情绪低于平均水平，积极情绪低于平均水平且消极情绪也低于平均水平，以及消极情绪高于平均水平且积极情绪低于平均水平。
Oh, it's the other three profiles, which is above average positive and below average negative, below average positive and below average negative, and above average negative and below average positive.
这是平均分配的，各25%吗？
And that's evenly split twenty five, twenty five?
是的。
Yeah.
因为这是中位数，而不是平均值。
Because it's the median, it's not the means.
对。
Right.
因此，这是由构造决定的。
And so it's by construction.
就是这些四分之一。
It's those quarters.
但这并不意味着在播客主和企业家中没有被高估。
Now that doesn't mean that it's not overrepresented among podcasters and entrepreneurs.
你知道的。
You know?
那将是75%的高高组合。
That's gonna be 75% high high.
你是一个情感非常外露的人，你是那个疯狂的科学家。
You're a very high affect guy, and you're the mad scientist.
那个象限就是这么称呼的。
That's what that quadrant is called.
顺便说一下，我也是。
And so am I, by the way.
我在积极情绪方面处于第九十五百分位。
I'm ninety fifth percentile in positive emotion.
我在消极情绪方面处于第九十百分位。
I'm ninetieth percentile in negative emotion.
那这意味着什么？
And so what does that mean?
这表明它并不是一个单一的连续谱。
It goes to show that it's not a single spectrum.
完全正确。
Exactly right.
我知道很多情绪很低的人。
And so and I know a lot of people who are low low.
这些人被称为法官。
Those are called judges.
他们是那些非常适合做外科医生的人。
Those are people who make really good surgeons.
他们是非常优秀的核反应堆管理者。
They make really good nuclear reactor managers.
有些人积极情绪高于平均水平，消极情绪低于平均水平。
There are some people who are above average positive and below average negative.
这些人是最幸福的。
Those are the happiest people.
他们是啦啦队队员。
Those are the cheerleaders.
他们拥有非常强烈的积极情绪和非常微弱的消极情绪。
They have very intense positive emotion and very weak negative emotion.
和他们在一起感觉很棒。
They're great to be around.
他们当老板很糟糕，因为他们无法忍受负面情绪，也无法给予批评。
They make terrible bosses because they can't stand negativity and they can't give criticism.
没有坏情绪。
No bad vibes.
没问题，老兄。
No bad vibes, man.
然后是低低型。
And then there's low low.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，抱歉，是高负面、低正面型。
I mean, sorry, there's there's high negative, low positive.
那些是诗人。
Those are the poets.
事实上，我们对诗人的气质在神经生物学方面了解很多。
And we know actually a lot about the neurobiology of the poetic temperament as a matter of fact.
我们实际上明白他们大脑中正在发生什么。
We actually understand kind of what's going on in their brains.
他们是最不快乐的，但却极具创造力和浪漫情怀。
And they're the unhappiest, but they're unbelievably creative and romantic.
这就是我们所发现的。
And it's what we find.
原因在于边缘系统中有一个有趣的小部分，叫做腹外侧前额叶皮层，它会让你反复思虑。
And the reason for that is there's this funny little part of the limbic system called the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex that makes you ruminate.
这实际上就是你的反复思虑器官。
That's your rumination organ effectively.
所以，如果你是一个忧郁的反复思虑者——大多数有点抑郁的人都会频繁地反复思虑。
And so if you're sad ruminator, like which most people who have a little bit of depression, they ruminate a lot.
当你在反复思考商业计划、诗歌、交响曲，或者在坠入爱河时思考某个人时，大脑的这个区域会非常活跃。
That's the same part of your brain that you use when you're ruminating on a business plan, or a poem, or a symphony, or on another person when you're falling in love is really, really active.
因此，诗人往往容易抑郁、浪漫且富有创造力。
And so that's why poets, they tend to be depressive, romantic, and creative.
这是大脑的同一个区域。
It's the same part of the brain.
心理学就是生物学。
Psychology is biology.
但重点是，你可能会问，管理幸福更重要还是管理不快乐更重要？
But the whole point is you ask, what's more important to manage, happiness or unhappiness?
答案是：对你来说，哪个挑战更大？
The answer is, what's the bigger challenge for you?
所以对你而言，你需要更多地关注你的不快乐，因为你是个疯狂的科学家。
So for you, you need to work more on your unhappiness because you're a mad scientist.
我也是。
Me too.
你知道，如果你是个诗人或法官，那么幸福就更值得去经营。
You know, it's like happiness is really much more important to work on if you're a poet or you're a judge.
你需要提升幸福感，而不是仅仅调节或管理不快乐。
You need to lift that happiness as opposed to moderating, managing the unhappiness.
好的。
Okay.
对于法官或诗人来说，主要的影响因素是什么？与疯狂的科学家相比，第四个角色又是什么？
What are the big movers for the judge or the poet compared with the mad scientist or the what was the fourth one?
这个
The
啦啦队。
cheerleader.
啦啦队。
Cheerleader.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我想啦啦队就是啦啦队
Well, I guess the cheerleaders just the cheerleaders
啦啦队做得很好，但啦啦队有自己没意识到的弱点。
Cheerleaders doing great, except the cheerleader has weaknesses that the cheerleader doesn't recognize.
现在我只是感到不满。
Now I'm just resentful.
你知道吗？
You know?
我只是嫉妒。
I'm just jealous.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
你知道，我嫁给了一个比我更像啦啦队队员的人。
And you know, I'm married to somebody who's more of a cheerleader than I am.
当你把这些性格特征匹配起来时，真的很有趣，因为某些婚姻在这些性格特质上比其他婚姻更和谐。
And it's really interesting when you match these profiles because it turns out that that certain marriages work better than others with respect to these temperaments.
所以人们会去我的网站，和他们的伴侣一起做这个测试。
So people go to my website and they take this a lot with their partner.
他们经常和伴侣一起做这些测试，以便了解自己和伴侣的性格类型。
They take these tests a lot with their partner so they can find out what their temperament is, what their what their what their partners is.
对于那些非常有元认知能力、对关系非常敏感的人来说，最好的婚姻是彼此互补的。
The best marriages for people who are really metacognitive, really in tune with their relationship, are ones where they balance each other.
可能是那种不太容易反复思虑的人。
Someone that's maybe a little bit less ruminative.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，如果你是个爱评判的人，那你和一个‘疯狂科学家’会相处得很好。
So if you're a for example, if you're a judge, you do really well with a mad scientist.
因此，情绪高涨的人和情绪低沉的人往往能相处得很好。
So a really high affect person can do really well with a low affect person.
如果两个人都是情绪高涨型的，那就会剑拔弩张。
If it's two really high affect people, it's going be daggers drawn.
这会出问题，因为你们会互相激化情绪，或者互相拖垮。
It's going to be trouble because you're going to spin each other up or bum each other out a lot.
所以你必须非常清楚这究竟是如何运作的。
So you have to be really aware is kind of how this works.
所以面临的挑战是完全不同的。
So the challenges are really different.
现在，那些高负面情绪的人，如果没有科学指导，通常会以破坏性的方式管理自己的负面情绪。
Now people who have high negative affect, they tend to manage their negative unless they have science, so they know what they're doing.
他们倾向于以破坏性的方式管理自己的负面情绪。
They tend to manage their negative affect in a destructive way.
高负面情绪人群管理负面情绪最常见的方式是使用药物和酒精，因为它们效果惊人。
The most common way that high negative affect people manage their negative affect is drugs and alcohol because it's unbelievably effective.
尤其是酒精，会切断杏仁核（边缘系统中负责恐惧和愤怒的部分）与前额叶皮层之间的联系。
Alcohol in particular cuts the connection between the amygdala, which is the fear and anger part of the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex.
所以你虽然压力很大，但却浑然不觉。
So you're all stressed out, but you don't know it.
这就是酒精的作用。
That's what alcohol does.
所以喝两杯马提尼，你就觉得生活还不错。
So two martinis and you're like, life's okay.
所以如果你是个焦虑的人，你就得特别小心酒精。
And so if you're an anxious person, that's why you gotta be super careful with alcohol.
这就是为什么CEO们的酒精问题比失业者还多。
And that's why CEOs have more alcohol problems than people who are unemployed.
不可能。
No way.
是的。
Yeah.
经合组织的数据表明，非常成功、受过高等教育、高收入的人群，其酒精问题比社会底层人群更严重。
OECD data shows that highly successful, highly educated, high earners, they have more trouble with alcohol than people on the other end of the spectrum.
有一个有趣的现象，可能来自你的研究。
There was an interesting might have been one of yours.
我觉得不是。
I don't think it was.
我记得读过一篇非常棒的文章，解释了为什么富裕家庭的孩子吸毒比例高于低收入家庭的孩子。
I remember reading this really great article that explained some of the justifications for why drug use among children from wealthy families is higher than those from low income families.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你可能会想，也许是因为他们有钱买到这些毒品，但事实并非如此。
You might think, well, maybe it's because they've got the money to access it, but that's that's not right.
也许是因为他们在青少年时期参加那些高档派对，周围人都在玩，他们觉得规则不适用于自己，这可能也有一点原因。
Maybe it's because they go to these sort of, like, posh parties when they're in their teenagers, and everybody else has got access, and they think that the rules don't apply to them, and, like, maybe a little bit.
但我认为最棒的解释是，如果你成长在一个父母已经设定了极高标准的家庭，你承受着必须超越代际竞争的压力。
But the explanation that I thought was really, really great is that if you grow up as the child of somebody who has already set the bar incredibly high, the pressure that's on you to be able to beat your intergenerational competition theory
是的。
Yeah.
这压力简直不可思议。
Is un unreal.
它也解释了为什么我認為這是一個極其出色的心理學解釋——我從來沒聽過——富裕家庭的孩子進入頂尖高等教育機構的比例更高的原因。
It also explains one of the reasons I thought this is such a fucking great psychological explanation that I never heard of, The higher rates of admission for children from wealthy families into prestigious higher education institutions.
嗯。
Yeah.
也许是因为预备教育。
Maybe it's because of the prep.
也许是因为资源获取。
Maybe it's because of the access.
也许是因为校友子女录取政策。
Maybe it's because of legacy admissions.
也许是因为他们极度害怕达不到父母设定的标准，以至于他们愿意以一种没有这种压力的人无法想象的方式逼迫自己。
Maybe it's because maybe it's because or maybe it's because they are so fucking terrified of falling behind the standard that their parents set that they are prepared to drive themselves in a manner that somebody who doesn't have that degree of pressure over the top of them wouldn't.
嗯。
Yeah.
对失败的恐惧。
Fear of failure.
我觉得这些解释真的太棒了。
I thought it's so I thought that those explanations were just so great.
没错。
That's right.
而且几乎可以肯定，原因有两个。
And and there's almost certain so there's kinda two reasons.
大多数文献都集中在酒精上。
Most of the literature's on alcohol.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，二十年后，我们会有关于大麻的更多文献。
I mean and in twenty years from now, we'll have more literature on cannabis,
你觉得我们可以把酒精的规则相对较好地套用到大麻上吗？
Do think we can do the rules of alcohol ported across on the cannabis relatively well?
是的。
Yeah.
同样的事情，只是不同
Same thing, different
它们在很大程度上是自我给药的欣快剂。
They're self delivery medicating euphorics for the most part.
大概有两种人会因为酒精而陷入麻烦。
There's kind of two kinds of people that get in trouble with alcohol.
一种是难以忍受无聊的人，另一种是难以应对焦虑的人。
People who have trouble with boredom and people who have trouble with anxiety.
所以你要么是个无聊的酒鬼，要么是个焦虑的酒鬼。
So either you're a bored drunk or you're an anxious drunk.
这就是人们面临的两个问题。
Those are the two problems that people have.
因此，针对这两种成瘾问题的解决方法是不同的。
And so the answer to these addiction problems are different in these two cases.
如果你是个酒鬼，或者因为无聊而喝太多酒，你需要用一些有趣的事情来取代饮酒。
If you're an alcoholic or you're drinking too much because you're bored, you need to crowd out the drinking by doing something interesting.
这就是为什么你会让一个在高中时酗酒、频繁聚会的孩子去做一些极其艰难而有趣的事情。
That's why you take a kid and who's drinking a lot and partying a lot in high school and make them do something unbelievably hard and interesting.
他们会说：我不希望喝那么多酒，因为喝酒远没有我正在做的这件事来得有趣。
And they'll be like, I I don't wanna drink that much because drinking is not as good a party as whatever this thing is that I'm doing.
焦虑型酒鬼是另一个问题。
Anxious drunks are a different problem.
对吧？
Right?
因为酒精对缓解焦虑的效果实在太好了。
Because anxiety is so unbelievably effectively dealt with by alcohol.
它极其有效，这意味着你需要以正确的方式应对焦虑。
It is so incredibly efficacious, and that means you need to deal with anxiety in a proper way.
药物和酒精并不是解决之道。
And drugs and alcohol are not the way to do it.
工作狂也是一种糟糕的应对焦虑的方式。
Workaholism is a terrible way to deal with your anxiety.
如果你有很高的情绪波动，这种高度的……
If you have a high If you have high date of affect, this high What's
工作狂的干预点是什么？
workaholism's point of intervention?
如果酒精正在切断杏仁核与前额叶皮层之间的联系，那工作狂在生物层面上究竟在做什么？
If if the link between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex is being severed from alcohol, what is it the workaholism is doing at a biological level?
分散注意力。
Distraction.
杏仁核很有趣。
So the amygdala is funny.
对于小孩子，当你有了孩子后，你会看到这种情况：你的两岁孩子会突然大发脾气，因为他们总是情绪失控。
So with little kids, you're gonna see this when you have your children, that your two year old's gonna be having a freak out, because they're freaking out all the time.
两岁孩子就是这样，因为他们杏仁核完全失调。
That's what two year olds do all the time, because they have a completely dysregulated amygdala.
所以他们既害怕又愤怒，哪怕你把他们三明治的面包边切错了，他们也会彻底崩溃。
And so they're fearful and angry, and they cut the crust off their little PB and J sandwich the wrong way, they totally freak out.
这是因为他们的杏仁核像圣诞树一样亮了起来。
That's because their amygdala lights up like a Christmas tree.
对吧？
Right?
你教他们不崩溃的方法，年轻的父母从来都搞不懂。
The way that you get them to not freak out, and young parents never figure this out.
对吧？
Right?
他们会说：什么？
They're gonna be like, what?
用语言表达出来，或者类似的话。
Use your words or something like this.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
转移他们的注意力。
Distract them.
因为杏仁核负责注意力，而注意力确实会影响杏仁核。
Because the amygdala is in charge of distraction actually affects the amygdala.
注意力与杏仁核密切相关。
Attention is something that highly implicates the amygdala.
所以如果你改变他们的注意力，比如对一个两岁的小孩说：‘哦，哦，哦，你猜我今天从工作带了什么回家？’
So if you change their attention so you do a little two year old, you're like, oh, oh, oh, do you see what I brought home from work today?
我带了件你绝对想看的东西回来，然后从公文包里拿出一样东西。
I brought home something you really gotta see, and you pull something out of your briefcase.
胡说八道。
Bullshit.
完全没错，因为他们从来都没搞明白。
Totally, because they never figured out.
因为他们是傻子。
Because they're an idiot.
但实际情况是，你停止了导致情绪崩溃的活动，将注意力转移到真正的专注上。
But what happens is that you stop the activity, the amygdala that's leading to the freak out, and you put it in true attention.
所以这基本上就是正在发生的事情。
So that's basically what's going on.
你通过工作狂的方式，用一种可靠的方法来分散自己的注意力。
You're distracting yourself through workaholism, through a a reliable way to distract yourself.
这正是问题的根源。
That's what it comes about.
这太棒了。
That's so great.
我记得去年我的治疗师对我说：注意那些转瞬即逝的想法。
I remember my therapist last year said to me, pay attention to fleeting thoughts.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她曾说过一句话，那些她称之为‘低语’的东西，瑞克·鲁宾也会称它们为‘低语’——这些微小的、转瞬即逝的念头，像一缕缕轻烟。
There's this line that she had, the whispers that sort of come Rick Rubin would call them whispers, these little transient little things, little bits of smoke.
如果你生活在混乱中，我这周就要重新开始巡演了。
And if you're living in chaos, I'm about to go back on tour this week.
我的意思是，四天内在三个州有三场演出。
I mean, got three shows in three states in four days.
太棒了。
Awesome.
而且
And
你知道你是爱这个的。
You know you love it.
这太好了。
It's great.
这太好了。
It's great.
我爱这种混乱。
I love the I I I love the chaos.
但如果你一直想在迷雾中隐藏些什么，哦，这根本就是小菜一碟。
But if I've got something that I've been trying to hide in the fog for a while, oh, it's a piece of piss.
我早上九点有个电话会议。
I've got call I got lobby call at 9AM.
我们要登机了。
We're gonna get on the flight.
我要去盐湖城滑雪，然后还有彩排。
I'm gonna go skiing in Salt Lake City, then I got the sound check.
还有彩排。
Got the sound check.
得去彩排。
Gotta do sound check.
等我们到了那儿，有人带了个蛋糕。
And then by the time we get there, someone brought a cake.
看看这个蛋糕。
Look at this cake.
这不是很棒吗？
Isn't this nice?
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后你就一直拖延，拖延，拖延。
And then you just manana, manana, manana.
我觉得这就是为什么那样。
And I think that this is why That's
真的很让人沮丧。
just frustrating.
比如，长期巡演的音乐人常常有酒精问题。
Like, chronic touring musicians have problems with with alcohol.
我之前请了Underoath的Aaron Gillespie来，他说他不知道有多少次——成百上千次——在巡演期间主动住进医院，因为他确信自己心脏病发作了。
I had Aaron Gillespie from Underwrath here, and he said I don't know how many times, like, hundreds, hundreds of times he checked himself into the on tour because he was sure he was having a heart attack.
他甚至熟悉了所有需要做的检查，以便证明自己的恐惧是多余的，因为他只是喝酒和吃药而已。
It got to the point where he knew the exact tests that they needed to run on him to disprove his own fear because he had just been drinking and medicating.
是的。
Yeah.
他一直坚持着。
He just kept going.
你提到那个两岁孩子的事，真有意思。
Funny that you said that thing about the two year old as well.
还有Man Talks的康纳·比顿，你一定要认识他。
So Connor Beaton from Man Talks who you need to meet.
他太棒了。
He's fucking fantastic.
我们最近做了一个播客，当时在车里。
We did a a a pod recently, and we're in the car.
他打算送我回家。
He was gonna give me a left home.
我们在车里，他说：我得先给孩子们打个电话。
We're in the car, and he said, I gotta ring I gotta ring the the kids first.
有一个四岁的孩子，快四岁半了，还有一个一岁半的孩子。
Got a four year old, four four and a bit year old, and a one and a half year old.
他妻子接了电话，一岁半的孩子看到他，笑了大约三秒，然后就开始大喊‘呃啊’。
And his wife gets on the phone, and the one and a half year old sees him, smiles for about three seconds, and then just screams Uh-huh.
然后就开始大叫。
And just starts screaming.
呃啊。
And Uh-huh.
今天早上因为这事差点把早餐搞砸了。
Fuck about it for breakfast this morning.
他当时说，是啊。
And he was like, yeah.
我那个一岁半的女儿，现在正处于一喊就大叫的阶段。
My the one and a half year old, she's just at the stage now where she screams.
她就是大叫。
She just screams.
但他一直都在尖叫。
But he Screams all the time.
他说，如果我们需要让他们安静下来，只要我走进厨房，和我的妻子维也纳独处片刻，抱抱她，我四岁的儿子就会跑过来，挤在我们中间，想加入我们，而那个一岁半的小女孩就会立刻安静下来。
He said, the one thing that we can do if we need either of them to shut up and stop, if I come into the kitchen and I just have a moment with Vienna, my wife, if I pick her up and hug her, my son, four years old, just runs over and wants to get in between us, like, in with us, and the one and a half year old just stops.
停下来，然后敲打。
Stops and knocks.
只是改变节奏。
Just change the rhythm.
只是改变节奏。
Just change the rhythm.
重新编程杏仁核。
Reprogram the amygdala.
太酷了。
So cool.
所以，不幸的是，用工作来分散注意力。
So that's, unfortunately, distracting yourself with work.
而且，天啊，我从19岁就开始巡演了。
And and, man, I've on tour since I was 19.
我染上这个瘾了。
I've I've got the I got the bug.
我就是上瘾了。
I got it.
我的意思是，我38岁的时候戒酒了。
I mean, I quit drinking when I was 38.
比你现在大一岁。
A year older than you are now.
我必须戒酒。
I had to quit drinking.
我的意思是，它根本没给我带来任何好处。
I mean, it was just not doing anything good for me.
它让我家族里那些黑暗的事情都爆发出来了，整个情况就是这样。
And it ends to it goes to dark places in my family and the whole thing.
但这种工作狂倾向，我的意思是，这可是首选啊。
But the the workaholic tendency, I mean, that's that's the go to, man.
这就是首选。
That's the go to.
因为这在公众面前是受赞扬的。
Well, because it's publicly praised.
没错。
Yeah.
我的意思是，从来没人说过：‘伙计，你昨晚喝光了一整瓶伏特加。’
I mean, nobody ever said, you know, dude, you drank an entire bottle of vodka last night.
太棒了。
That was awesome.
从来没人这么说过。
Nobody ever said that.
对吧？
Right?
但你连续九天每天工作十六小时，赚了一大笔钱，人们却为此称赞你，称赞这种高度成瘾且危险的行为。
But you worked nine sixteen hour days in a row and made a bunch of money, and people praise you for that, for that highly addictive dangerous behavior.
这也是一种次级成瘾。
It's also a secondary addiction.
主要的成瘾是对成功的成瘾。
The primary addiction is an addiction to success.
我专门研究成功人士，与他们交谈，做了很多这方面的研究。
And one of the things that I sort of specialize in successful people and talking to and doing a lot.
我的意思是，我在哈佛商学院任教。
Mean, I teach at the Harvard Business School.
这些人将来会成为商业领域的主宰。
These people are going to be the masters of the universe when it comes to business.
我发现，那些最终成为工作狂的人，其病理模式其实从童年时期就开始了，呈现出一种奇特的模式，你一定能对此产生共鸣，因为我觉得你可能近距离见过这种情况。
And what I find is that the pathology actually of people who wind up workaholic, it starts when they're kids in in this funny pattern, and you're gonna be able to respond to this because my guess is that you've seen this maybe up close.
我的意思是，朋友。
I mean, friends.
对吧？
Right?
也许比你想象的更接近。
Maybe closer than you might think.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
他们做事情时会得到成年人的关注和喜爱。
They get the attention and affection of adults when they do stuff.
当他们带回好成绩、入选棒球队、在管弦乐队中获得首席席位时，才会真正得到赞扬。
When they bring home a good report card, when they make the baseball team, when they make first chair in the orchestra, that's when they really get praise.
因此，他们在童年时就形成了这样的认知：爱是需要争取的。
And so they make the connection as children that love is something that's earned.
现在，爱是一种自由给予的免费礼物。
Now love is a free gift freely given.
这是一种恩典。
It's a grace.
它不是一份礼物。
It's not a gift.
恩典和礼物是不同的，但他们从小认为，得到的是礼物，呃，是靠努力赢得的东西。
Graces and gifts are different, but they learn that it's a gift that you get that's sorry, it's an earned thing.
因此，结果是，他们的小大脑——前额叶皮层具有高度可塑性——让他们长大后认为自己必须与众不同。
And so the result of that is that they wire their little brains, little prefrontal cortex is highly plastic, and they grow up thinking that they have to be special.
这就是导致‘特殊性崇拜’的原因，这是一种真正的心理障碍，因为它会导致对成功的上瘾。
This is what leads to the cult of specialness, which is a real pathology because that leads to a success addiction.
事实上，除非他们赢了，除非他们经历了非凡的体验，除非他们得到赞扬并被陌生人钦佩，否则他们的大脑根本得不到足够的多巴胺。
Literally, their brains don't actually get sufficient dopamine unless they're winning, unless they're having an outlandish experience, unless they're getting praised and then they're admired by strangers.
这是一种病态。
It's pathological.
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这完全不正常。
It's not normal at all.
但大多数人其实并没有这种问题，然而他们却成了亿万富翁。
And most people don't actually suffer from this, but by the way, they become billionaires.
在继续之前，我从记事起每天早上都会喝AG one，因为这是我找到的最简单的方式，可以全面覆盖营养需求，而无需过度思考饮食问题，这也是我与他们合作的原因。
Before we continue, I've been drinking AG one every morning for as long as I can remember now because it is the simplest way I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition, and that is why I partnered with them.
只需一勺，就能提供75种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和全食物成分。
Just one scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink.
现在，他们推出了AG one NextGen，延续了每天一勺的仪式感，但这次得到了四项临床试验的支持。
Now they've taken it a step further with AG one NextGen, the same one scoop once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials.
在这些试验中，它被证明能填补常见的营养缺口，仅三个月就能显著提升关键营养素水平，即使对饮食已经很健康的人，也能将有益肠道菌群增加十倍。
In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in people who already eat well.
他们升级了配方，采用了更优质的益生菌、生物利用度更高的营养素，并获得了临床验证。
They've upgraded their formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation.
此外，它仍通过了NSF运动认证，确保品质可靠。
Plus, it's still NSF certified for sport, so you know that the quality is legit.
现在，当你首次订阅时，可以免费获得一瓶D3K2和AG One欢迎礼包，外加额外的AG One旅行装。
Right now, when you first subscribe, you can get a free bottle of d three k two and AG one welcome kit, plus bonus AG one travel packs.
此外，限时内美国客户还可获得一份AG Z样品和一瓶Omega-3。
And for a limited time, US customers also get a sample of a g z and a bottle of omega threes.
请前往下方描述中的链接，或访问drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。
Just go to the link in the description below or head to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
网址是drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。
That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
他们说的是大多数人并不遭受这种情况吗？
Do they do most people not suffer from this?
对成功的适应，难道不是每个人都会经历的吗？
Is habituation to success not something that's kind of in for everybody?
这难道不是幸福的全部奥秘——适应的过程吗？
Is that not the whole game of happiness, the habituation thing?
适应就是成功。
Habituation is success.
这取决于成功的定义是什么。
It depends on what success means.
如果成功意味着金钱、权力和陌生人的钦佩这些世俗标准，那和人们在家庭生活中获得的成功——比如你的孩子和妻子爱你——是完全不同的。
If success means it's really in these worldly terms of money, power, the admiration of strangers, it's very different than the success that people actually have in having a family life where, you know, your kids and your wife love you.
而大多数人实际上是在这些平凡的层面上感受到成功的。
And most people actually, they sense success along these ordinary lines.
他们真正追求的那种成功是什么。
What that success adding they really do.
当你看公众意见调查时，发现人们确实非常钦佩那些最世俗意义上的成功人士，这是可能的，也很有趣。
And it's possible, and it's funny when you look at surveys of public opinion, people really admire the most worldly successful people to be sure.
他们心想，那该多好啊？
And they think, well, wouldn't that be great?
他们在社交媒体上看到这些，心想，那该多好啊？
And they look on social media and they think, wouldn't that be great?
但这不是我的生活。
But that's not my life.
所以我打算去公园和我的孩子一起玩。
And so I guess I'm just gonna go to the park and play with my kid.
结果他们也因此很开心。
And they're pretty happy as a result of that.
我的行业里有个老说法：谁的梦想实现了，谁就倒霉。
I mean, there's an old axiom in my business, which is woe be to the man whose dreams come true.
他会发现，自己当初的梦想是错的。
He will find he had the wrong dreams.
为什么？
Why?
因为那些实现的梦想，那些让人称赞、让人嫉妒的梦想，都是世俗的偶像。
Because the dreams that come true, the dreams that come true that are that people praise you for, that people envy you for are the worldly idols.
世俗的偶像。
The worldly idols.
阿奎那谈过金钱、权力、享乐和名声这些世俗偶像。
Aquinas talked about the idols game of money, power, pleasure, and fame.
这四个就是偶像。
Those are the four idols.
如果将这些作为你人生的终极目标，你最终会发现不快乐。
And instrumentally, if you make these the ultimate goals of your life, you will find unhappiness.
这是现代社会科学的结论，但其实早在阿奎那时代就有了，而阿奎那又是从亚里士多德那里继承来的。
That's good modern social science, but it's as old as Aquinas who was lifting it from Aristotle.
事实上，我和学生玩一个叫‘我的偶像是什么’的游戏。
Those are the As a matter of fact, I have a game I play with my students called what's my idol.
你想玩吗？
You wanna play?
当然。
Sure.
我们来找出克里斯的偶像是什么。
Let's find out what Chris's idol is.
好的。
Okay.
这个游戏的玩法是，从心理上来说，你不能只是随便选其中一个。
Now the way that this game works and as psychologically, you don't just say pick one of the four.
你要先排除那些不合适的。
You eliminate the ones that is not.
这样能让你在类似的事情上获得更高的准确性。
That's how you get much better fidelity in anything like this.
阿奎那提出，现代行为科学也证实了这一观点：我们被四种世俗之物吸引，但它们无法带给我们幸福。
So Aquinas suggested, and modern behavioral science validates the idea, that that we're attracted to four worldly things, and they won't make us happy.
但我们动物般的本能是需要更多、更多、更多。
But our animal impulse is that we need more, more, more.
这就是所谓的‘享乐适应’——不断追求更多的金钱或资源，对吧？
This is the hedonic treadmill of more, more, more money or resources, right?
权力，即对他人施加影响的能力。
Power, which is influence over other people.
这并不一定是恶意的。
It's not malevolent.
这意味着人们会按照你希望的去做。
It means that people do what you want them to do.
你是老大。
You're the top dog.
你是舞王之王。
You're the king of the mambo.
第三是快乐。
Number three is pleasure.
快乐以不同的方式体现。
And pleasure manifests in different ways.
对一些人来说，就是感觉良好。
For some people it's like feeling good.
对一些人来说，是舒适。
For some people, it's comfort.
对一些人来说，是安全。
And for some people, it's security.
比如那些每天查看股票投资组合的人，他们有一个安全偶像，这种安全属于愉悦的范畴。
Like people who check their stock portfolio every day, they have a security idol, which is in that pleasure.
那就是消除不适感。
That it's the alleviation of discomfort.
最后是荣誉。
And last is honor.
不是指以荣誉的方式服务。
Not in serving with honor.
它指的是世间的荣誉。
It means honor as the honor of the world.
这意味着名声、声望和他人的钦佩。
That means fame, prestige, admiration of other people.
这四个就是四大偶像，每个人都有自己特别看重的一个。
Those are the four idols, and everybody has one in particular.
当你明白自己看重的是哪一个时，你就会说：哦，原来如此，这就是我总是做些事后后悔的事情的原因。
And when you know what it is, you'll say, oh yeah, that's why I always do the things that I regret later.
如果你知道这能给你力量，这将成为你未来后悔的根源。
This will be the source of your future regret if you know this gives you power.
好的。
Okay.
所以是金钱、权力、享乐和荣誉。
So money, power, pleasure, and honor.
你必须放弃其中一个，这并不是说你没有它，而是说你只拥有大众的平均水平，这对一个超级奋斗者来说是一种折磨。
You have to get rid of one, which means that not that you don't have it, what it means is that you have the population average in it, which for a super striver is torture.
变得普通？
Being normal?
它必须是普通的，对吧？
It must be normal, right?
所以这四个中你必须放弃一个，要降到普通人群的平均水平，而在美国，这已经相当不错了。
So one of the four you gotta get rid of, you gotta go to normal population average, which in The United States is pretty freaking great.
那么，克里斯，你要放弃哪一个呢？
So which one do get rid of, Chris?
金钱。
Money.
权力。
Power.
权力。
Power.
享乐。
Pleasure.
享乐。
Pleasure.
荣誉。
Honor.
或者名声。
Or fame.
名声。
Fame.
或者名声，或者他人的钦佩，群众的崇拜。
Or fame or the admiration of others, the adoration of the crowd.
权力。
Power.
告诉我为什么。
Tell me why.
我通常不太使用它。
I tend to not use it much.
我倾向于不去尝试，不去影响别人，当然更不会直接去影响。
I tend to not try I tend to not influence other people, certainly not directly.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我是独生子女。
I'm an only child.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以是独处，一个小圈子。
So solitude, a pretty small circle.
对。
Right.
你不想当大老板吗？
You don't dream of being a big CEO?
不想。
No.
不想。
No.
不想。
No.
不想。
No.
不想。
No.
所以我来做一个预测。
So I will make a prediction.
你讨厌别人对你有控制权。
You hate it when people have power over you.
是的，非常讨厌。
Yes, massively.
嗯。
Yeah.
对，对。
Yeah, yeah.
这总是个问题。
That's always the thing.
所以有趣的是。
So here's the interesting thing.
当你观察那些想当独裁者的人时，你知道他们钦佩谁吗？
When you look at would be dictators, you know who they admire?
独裁者。
Dictators.
你总是钦佩那些拥有你所崇拜的偶像、并成功积累你所拥有的偶像的人。
You always admire the people who have the idol that you have, who are successful in accumulating the idol that you have.
当然，因为你更清楚地看到了这种货币。
Of course, because you see the currency more cleanly.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以，如果你看到英国或美国的政治家钦佩独裁者，就要当心了。
So if you see a politician in The UK or The United States, and they admire dictators, look out.
是的。
Yeah.
当心吧。
Look out.
不要给那个人投票。
Don't vote for that person.
你知道我听说了什么吗？
You know what I heard?
先把这个放一放，等会儿再说。
Put a pin in it for the second.
伊莎贝尔在Substack上崩了。
Isabel unraveled on Substack.
太棒了。
Fucking great.
太好了。
So wonderful.
她刚订婚了。
She just got engaged.
她写了一篇文章，我觉得非常真实。
She wrote this article, which I think is so true.
她说，极端的迷恋只是被错置的抱负。
She said, extreme crushes are just misplaced ambition.
基本上，我们在最深层的浪漫迷恋中——无论是我们约会还是没约会的人——都看到了自己渴望拥有的特质。
Basically, we we see in our deepest romantic crushes, the ones that we do and don't date, traits that we wish that we had ourselves.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
而当这个人接纳我们时，这实际上是我们终于认可了自己一直以来所感受到的缺失。
And that in the acceptance of us by this person, that is us finally validating the lack that we feel we have had all along.
我们看到他们，哦，他们如此有魅力。
We see in them, oh, they're so charismatic.
他们如此自信。
They're so confident.
他们如此受欢迎。
They're so popular.
他们如此有才华。
They're so talented.
他们如此坚韧。
They're so resilient.
他们如此随性、平和，不管是什么，而那就是我觉得自己所缺乏的。
They're so whatever, peaceful, whatever it might be, and that's what I feel I don't have.
所以这是一种有趣的反转，嗯。
So it's an interesting inversion of this Mhmm.
这里的观点是，但据我所见，我认为这一点也成立。
Idea here, but I I from what I can see, I think that that holds true too.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你觉得能让你完整的某种东西。
Because something that you think would complete you.
他们拥有你觉得能让你完整的东西。
They have something that you think would complete you.
如果你自己得不到，就会向别人租借。
And if you can't get it yourself, then you're gonna rent it in somebody else.
这真是个绝妙的表达方式。
What a wonderful way to put it.
好吧。
Okay.
所以我已经放下了权力。
So I've gotten rid of power.
放下了权力，意思是你拥有了正常的权力量。
Got rid power, which means you have the normal amount of power.
是的。
Yeah.
也就是几乎没有。
Which is basically none.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yep.
嗯，每个人都有影响力。
Well, mean, everybody's got influence.
你知道的，你将来会有孩子，也会有权力。
You know, and you're gonna have children, and you're gonna have power.
只要我能指挥他们就行。
As long as I can boss them around.
别喊了。
Stop screaming.
把你妈妈扶起来。
Pick your mother up.
这行不通。
Which won't work.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以，好吧。
So, okay.
所以你还有金钱、快乐和荣誉剩下。
So you've got money, pleasure, and honor left.
接下来你要放弃哪一个？
Which one do get rid of next?
金钱。
Money.
你怎么知道的？
How do you know?
或者我该说，为什么。
Or I should say why.
我并不过特别奢侈的生活。
I don't tend I don't have a particularly lavish life.
我没有昂贵的品味。
I don't have expensive tastes.
对。
Right.
我养成了坐商务舱的稍微贵一点的习惯，如果这算的话，我相信这几乎是每个人有钱后最先做的事。
I've developed slightly expensive taste for flying in business class, if that counts, which I'm sure it's like the first thing that everybody that gets money goes to.
对。
Right.
这还有一点点更好的感觉。
It's also a little bit of like better.
是的。
It's yeah.
嗯，这是最直接的一种方式，让你的钱花得更值，而且它确实有帮助，这是一种非常容易被社会接受的
Well, it's it's it's the most immediate way to, like, spend your money in a better but, also, it helps you It's it's like a very publicly acceptable
对。
Yeah.
方式来说明这不是挥霍。
Way to say It's not a PJ.
没错。
No.
不。
No.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这他妈的。
Because it fuck.
不。
No.
睡衣是十倍。
PJ is 10 x.
对。
Correct.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我可不是在和斯科特·加洛韦搞在一起。
I'm not fucking Scott Galloway.
他在西南偏南大会上堵住我了。
He's he's fucking cornered me at South by Southwest.
我们出去吃晚饭时，他一把抓住了我的衣领。
He got me by we were we went out for dinner, he got me by the the collar.
他喝了点啤酒。
He's had a couple of beers.
他对我说：‘克里斯，你知道致富的唯一原因是什么吗？’
He's like, Chris, do you know what the only reason to get rich is?
私人飞机。
Private jet.
这就是致富的唯一原因。
It's like, it's the only it's the only reason to get rich.
这就是你需要钱的唯一原因。
It's like, it's the only reason that you need money.
他说，有了私人飞机之后，就没什么别的了。
He's like, after private jet, there's nothing.
你和未来的唯一区别，就是你和一架私人飞机。
It's like, the only difference between you and any future is you and a private jet.
就像，一直忍不住笑。
Like, happens to keep giggle.
好吧，我
Okay, I
我以为他挺可爱的。
thought he was so he's really cute.
但他就像那种左倾资本家。
But he like he's he's kind of left leaning capital.
我喜欢他的观点，在他进入那个话题之前，但不行。
I like his I like the Venn diagram before he comes into that, but no.
我已经摆脱了金钱。
I've gotten rid of money.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
而且你很可能——我的意思是，你赚了很多钱，因为你很成功。
And you probably I mean, you've made plenty of money because you're successful.
你已经意识到，用钱能带来的乐趣其实没那么多。
You've figured out that there's not that much fun you can have with it.
也没那么棒。
It's not that great.
不。
No.
我的意思是，我认为那些出身贫寒的人——我也没任何家底，有两条路可走。
I mean, it it I there's two, paths, I think, that people who don't come from money I did not come from any money.
我是在英国最典型的工人阶级小镇长大的，那个地方唯一的头衔就是拥有英国最长的商业街和最高的青少年怀孕率，但后来这些头衔也失去了。
I grew up in the most working class town in The UK that was the only title it had was the widest high street in The UK and the highest teen pregnancy rating, and then it lost that.
是哪个镇？
What town?
斯托克顿。
Stockton.
斯托克顿，阿姨们。
Stockton, Aunties.
是的。
Yeah.
它在东北部。
It's Northeast.
就在纽卡斯尔下面。
It's just below Newcastle.
你和你上大学时认识的迈克·瑟斯顿是同一个镇的吗？
And you you're same town as you're oh, you went to university with Mike Thurston.
对吧？
Right?
我去过。
I did.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
纽卡斯尔。
Newcastle.
所以他来自利兹。
So he's from Leeds.
他来自比我更低一点的地方。
He's from a little bit lower down than me.
但没错。
But yeah.
两个方向。
Two directions.
一个是，我从来就没钱。
One is I never had money.
哇。
Wow.
你看，我有这么多闲钱。
Like, look at all of this, like, spare money that I've got.
我真的不知道该怎么用它，也许有人能指导我，教我如何赚更多钱之类的。
I really don't know kinda how to use it, and maybe someone will coach me, like, how to make more of it or whatever.
但我还是有点清教徒式的勤奋观念，嗯，嗯。
But, like, I still have a bit of a puritanical work kind of ethic thing and, ugh, like a Mhmm.
比尔·珀金斯的那种类型。
The Bill Perkins archetype.
对吧？
Right?
你得读《Die Wards》，读《Die Wards Zero》至少二十遍，学会怎么花钱。
The Die Wards you need to read Die Wards Zero, like, fucking 20 times and learn how to spend some money.
没错。
Yeah.
而另一方面，我从来就没钱。
And then the other side, which is I never had money.
哇哦。
Woo.
一路像坐过山车一样直线下滑。
And it's just like a roller coaster all the way down.
这让人厌倦。
That gets old.
没错。
Yeah.
这就像是NBA球员的典型模式。
Like, that's the NBA player archetype.
对，没错。
That's Yeah.
没错。
Right.
当你结婚生子后，情况就完全不同了，因为你开始考虑代际财富、如何建立家庭、慈善事业等等。
And when you get married and have children, then that's, you know, then it's a different kettle of fish because then you start thinking about intergenerational wealth, and how you're building your family, and your philanthropy, and all that kind of stuff.
但我完全相信，接下来要失去的就是金钱。
But I completely believe you that the next thing to go is money.
当然，现在更难了，因为剩下的两个之所以留下来，是有原因的，那就是快乐和名望。
Now it's of course more difficult because the two that are left are left for a reason, and that's pleasure and fame.
而名望可以有不同的含义。
And fame can mean different things.
它可以意味着在对的人眼中获得名声。
It can mean fame in the eyes of the right people.
所以对于学者来说，我不在乎名望。
So academics is like, I don't care about fame.
是的，你在乎。
Yes, you do.
你想走进正确的领域，你有
You wanna walk into the right You have
H指数。
H index.
你对H指数着迷。
You're obsessed with your H index.
那是威廉姆森教授。
That's professor Williamson.
他写了关于新弦理论论文之类的论文。
He wrote the paper on, you know, the new string theory paper or something like that.
比如什么？
Like, on what?
谁在乎？
Who cares?
关键是，声望就是声望。
The point is that prestige is prestige.
或者那种真正失衡的，是数以百万计的人在社交媒体上对你的崇拜，这其实是一种非常失衡的状态。
Or the the really kind of dysregulated one is is adoration in the eyes of millions and millions of people on social media, which is a really dysregulated.
一种扭曲的版本
Deranged version of
。
it.
这确实是个问题，因为名气是唯一一种你只能逆境中才能获得快乐的东西。
Well, there's a real problem with it, because fame is the only one of those that you can ever only be happy in spite of.
用钱获得快乐其实很容易。
You can be happy very easily with money.
我可以教你如何用很多钱获得快乐，但我无法教你如何用很多名气获得快乐，除非你付出大量努力。
I can teach you how to be happy with a lot of money, but I can't teach you how to be happy with a lot of fame, unless you do a lot of work.
我的合著者是奥普拉·温弗瑞，她非常、非常、非常有名，但她是个极其快乐的人。
I mean, I know, like my co author is Oprah Winfrey, and she's very, very, very famous, and she's extremely happy person.
但唯一的原因是，她深刻地意识到，她的赞誉是一种礼物，可以用来帮助他人。
But the only reason is because she realizes soulfully that her acclaim is a gift such that she can help other people.
这才是唯一的原因。
That's the only reason.
在她看来，如果她停止这样做，这种赞誉会立即被收回。
And it would be withdrawn immediately if she were to stop doing that in her view.
这是一种极其健康的看法，正因如此，她才真正取得了成功。
Which is an incredibly healthy way to see it, which is why she's actually done well.
好吧。
Okay.
舒适，或者我该说，愉悦——你的那种愉悦或名声，你打算放弃哪一个？
Comfort, or I should say pleasure, your version of pleasure or fame, which one do get rid of?
我们以前讨论过这个，但上次我没听你谈到过安全或舒适。
So we've done this before, but the last time I didn't hear you talk about security or comfort.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
这对我来说很重要。
That's a big deal to me.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
这太重要了。
That's a huge deal.
部分原因是你们小时候没钱。
Partly because you grew up without money.
关于钱的问题是，我们并没有那种贫困焦虑。
The money thing was that I it wasn't like we had, like, poverty anxiety.
更多是因为我是个情感非常丰富的人，而混乱对我来说不合适。
It was more so I'm a pretty big feeler, and chaos doesn't agree with me.
比如，强度我能接受，但复杂性我就受不了。
Like, intensity agrees with me, but complexity doesn't agree with me.
模糊性和不确定性真的让我非常不适。
Ambiguity and uncertainty really do not agree with me at all.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以这实际上是我们需要努力的一个方面。
So that's a good thing for us to work on, actually.
我们先放一放，因为我们需要回头再谈，因为这意味着你是个容易焦虑的人。
Let's put a pin in that because we need to come back because that means you're an anxious person.
嗯。
Mhmm.
焦虑就是没有焦点的恐惧。
Anxiety is unfocused fear.
嗯。
Mhmm.
有一种方法可以解决这个问题。
And there's a way to fix that.
好的。
Okay.
有一种不用苯二氮䓬类药物的方法来解决这个问题。
There's a way to fix that without benzodiazepine drugs.
好的。
Okay.
我想，很多其他人也有同样的感受。
Well, I imagine that lots of other people are are feeling the same here.
我该说什么呢？
What would I say?
考虑到我目前的状况，我实际上会说，下一个可以放弃的是名望。
Given where I'm at right now, I would actually say that the next one that could go would be fame.
是的。
Yeah.
我会保留安全、舒适和保障。
And that I would I would keep myself with safety, comfort, security.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为这现在对我来说是最重要的。
I think that that would be top of the tree for me right now.
嗯。
Yeah.
这意味着你目前职业所获得的赞誉会降到平均水平，也就是说你得换一份工作。
So that would mean that the the acclaim that you actually get from what you do for a living right now would go to the population mean which would mean that you'd have to do something else for a living.
那会很糟糕。
That would suck
很糟糕。
a lot.
那会有点糟糕。
That would kinda suck.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Yeah.
但我会有百分之百的安全感。
But I would have a 100 out of a 100 security comfort.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，也许这是我在象牙塔里说的话。
I mean, maybe this is me speaking from my ivory tower.
也许改变的是
Maybe what's changed
那个拥有全球前三的播客的人。
The guy with the top, you know, three podcast or something in the world.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，当
I mean, where
等到这个内容发布时，Spotify 将会推出《2025 年回顾》，这是 Modern Wisdom 在全球的第八期。
By the time that the by the time that this comes out, Spotify will have released, twenty twenty five wrapped, which is Modern Wisdom's eighth on the planet.
老兄，这太不可思议了。
Dude, that's unbelievable.
我得到了
I got
我拿到了新闻稿
the I got the press
发布，太棒了。
release sweet.
今天。
Today.
是的。
Yeah.
这太疯狂了。
It's fucking crazy.
我排在杰·沙蒂后面，这一直是我想要的位置。
I'm on top of Jay Shetty, a position I've always wanted to be in.
实际上，我只是在安德鲁·休伯曼下面的弱势方。
And, actually, I'm the power bottom just below Andrew Huberman.
所以我处在杰·沙蒂、安德鲁·休伯曼这三者之间，我想互联网早就等着这一刻了。
So I'm I'm in a Jay Shetty, Andrew Huberman three way, which I imagine the Internet has just been waiting for.
这正是全世界一直期待的。
This is what the world's been Good.
一直以来都在期盼的。
Hoping for all along.
太棒了。
That's great.
恭喜。
Congratulations.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这真是件很棒的事。
That's a really wonderful thing.
问题是，你从事的这个行业需要一种主张，需要粉丝，需要关注者，需要那些认识你、信任你的人。
And the problem is that you're in a business that requires a claim, that requires fans, that requires followers, that requires people who recognize you and trust you.
因此，说‘我其实不在乎’这种话是没有意义的，因为你要想做到你所能做的事，这件事必须是重要的。
And so that kind of in a way to say, I don't really care about it is not meaningful because you you're actually to do what you're able to do, it has to be something that's important.
我想，如果我完全坦诚的话，你觉得我怎么想？
I think do you know what I think it is, if I was being completely honest?
我想，可能其他在家观看的人也有同样的感受。
And I think maybe other people as they've played along at home, may have felt the same thing.
有两个世界。
There's two worlds.
我现在真正驱动我的是什么？我功能上被什么推动？
There is what is it that I functionally, what am I driven by right now?
对。
Right.
我想要被什么驱动？
And what do I want to be driven by?
对。
Right.
我觉得我的更高自我是什么样的？
Like, what do I feel like my higher self?
如果我能够保持一致，如果我能够内在协调的话。
Like, if I was being incongruence, if I was coherent.
是的。
Yeah.
你真正想要的是什么，你希望想要的是什么。
It's what do you want and what do you wanna want.
所以，你想要什么才是真正重要的练习。
And so what do you want to want is a really important exercise.
是的。
Yeah.
我太喜欢这句话了。
I adore that.
你知道第一篇彻底颠覆我认知的文章吗？
You know the first ever essay that that completely broke my brain?
作者叫凯尔·埃希诺达。
It's called guy called Kyle Eshinroda.
这篇文章现在已经找不到了。
It's no longer available.
他的网站被黑了，被某个钓鱼色情网站接管了。
His website got hacked and taken over by some, like, one of those fishing porn websites.
所以你甚至没法去搜，但我保存了PDF，内容就是‘你想要什么’。
So you can't even say, but I've got the PDF saved, and it's what you want to want.
那是一篇两万字的论文，它在2018年彻底击碎了我。
And it was 20,000 word essay, and it it snapped me in half in like 2018.
是的。
Yeah.
它太惊人了。
It was so phenomenal.
所以，我会让别人回答一系列关于他们人生有效使命的问题，然后让他们写下理想的使命宣言，两者之间的差异就是你真正想要的和你渴望想要的。
So it's really, you know, I'll I'll ask people to answer a bunch of questions for their effective mission statement for life, and then I'll have them write their ideal mission statement, and the difference between the two is what you want and what you wanna want.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是佛教中‘正欲’的本质。
And that's the essence, the Buddhist essence of right desire.
因为我们想要的，就是正欲。
Because what what we want is right desire.
问题不在于你想要什么。
The problem is not what you want.
问题在于你的欲望并不正确。
The problem is that your desires aren't right.
你想要的不是正确的东西。
You don't want the right things.
几乎所有的痛苦都可以归结为没有想要正确的东西。
For all of misery, pretty much, can be summed up in not wanting the right things.
你不需要做不同的事情。
You don't need to do something differently.
你需要以不同的方式去渴望。
You need to want something differently.
没错。
Correct.
所以这就是问题所在。
So this is the problem.
但你的
But your
凯尔的论点是，你的欲望定义了你阻力最小的道路。
wants Kyle's argument was that your wants define your path of least resistance.
是的。
Yes.
如果你能选择，能让自己渴望你真正渴望的东西，那你就能顺流而行。
And if you can choose if you can get yourself to want what you want to want, then you get to row with the tide Right.
而不是逆流而行。
As opposed to rowing against it.
没错。
Yeah.
正是如此。
That's right.
当你与那些面临婚外情问题的伴侣合作时，问题并不在于婚外情本身。
And, you know, the when you work with, you know, couples that are having trouble with with, infidelity, for example, the problem isn't the infidelity.
而在于对婚外情的渴望。
It's the desire for infidelity.
这归根结底就是关键所在。
That's really what it comes down to.
因此，你需要做的是设计一种不同的欲望。
And so what you need to do is to actually engineer a different kind of desire.
这才是解决问题的方法。
That's how you fix problems.
这才是修复你自己以及你和你关系中问题的方法。
That's how you fix problems in yourself and in your and in your relationship.
真正理解你想要什么的核心，在于确保你想要的和你希望想要的保持一致。
That's how you is really getting into the whole concept of what you want, is making sure that what you want and what you wanna want are congruent.
这是一个终身的目标。
That's a lifetime goal.
所以我们已经确定，舒适或安全感对你很重要，而你已经建立了一种需要大量认可的生活和事业。
So what we've established is that comfort is important to you, or security is important to you, and that you've built a life, you've built a career that requires a lot of acclaim.
因此，这些是你需要留意的事情。
And so these are the things to keep an eye on.
这些始终是需要留意的事情：你会因为试图获得更多的安全感而做出决定并走捷径，并且会顽固地坚持自己的主张，从不轻易放手。
These are always the things to keep an eye on, that you'll make decisions and cut corners because you're trying to feel more secure, and that you'll hang on doggedly to a claim, and never hold it lightly.
你永远不会轻易放手，因为这是一项资产。
You won't ever hold it lightly because this is an asset.
你所拥有的这种主张，对你来说在职业上是非常重要的资产。
The claim that you have is a really, really important asset professionally for you.
但它也某种程度上定义了你对自己的认知。
But it's also kind of who you understand who you are.
我的意思是，我知道这个播客的故事。
I mean, I know the story of this podcast.
我的意思是，你并不是一开始就拥有数百万听众的。
I mean, you didn't start with millions of listeners.
没有。
No.
花了450期节目才达到25万订阅者。
It took 450 episodes to hit 250,000 subscribers.
是的。
Yeah.
我带着大约二百五十美元搬到了美国。
And I moved to America with, like, two two hundred and fifty.
是的。
And yeah.
所以节目前半段的订阅者只占百分之五。
So the first half of the show was, like, five percent of the subscribers.
是的。
Yeah.
节目的前半段。
First half of the show.
所以对那些刚起步的播客创作者来说，如果你期待快速成功，是的。
So to the fledgling podcasters out there, if you're expecting quick success Yeah.
这不可能
It is not
这是一个非常重要的教训。
It's a really important lesson.
花了四年时间。
Took four years.
花了四年，整整四年。
Took four years and four years.
事实上，我记得早年听过你的节目。
I remember hearing you early on, as a matter of fact.
这真的很好。
This is really good.
这会非常棒。
This is gonna be really good.
结果证明是真的。
And it turns out it was true.
是的。
Yeah.
正如人们所说，行家一出手，就知有没有。
Well, game recognizes game, as they say.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不管怎样，这些都是非常重要的自我认知。
So anyway, this is these are this is all this is really super important self knowledge.
因为一旦你明白了什么迷惑了你，你就能更有效地管理自己。
Because once you understand what beguiles you, you can manage yourself in a more effective way.
总是更有效的方式。
Always a more effective way.
我们稍后再继续讨论，但首先，如果你最近感觉有些迟钝，你的睾酮水平可能是问题所在。
We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem.
它们在你的精力、专注力和表现中起着至关重要的作用。
They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance.
但大多数人根本不知道自己的睾酮水平是多少，也不知道出了问题该怎么办，这就是我与Function合作的原因——我想用一种更智能、更全面的方式来真正了解自己身体内部发生了什么。
But most people have no idea where those are or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body.
每年两次，他们会进行实验室检测，监测超过100项生物标志物。
Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers.
他们有一支专家医生团队分析数据，并为你提供改善健康和延长寿命的可操作建议。
They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan.
看到你的睾酮水平以及其他众多生物标志物在一年内的变化趋势，并获得切实可行的改善建议，能为你提供一条清晰的路径，让你的生活变得更好。
And seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better.
通常情况下，进行这样的血液检测和分析需要花费数千美元，但通过Function，只需499美元。
Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with function, it's just $499.
现在，你还可以再减100美元，价格降至399美元。
And right now, you can get a $100 off, bringing it down to $399.
通过下方描述中的链接或访问functionhealth.com/modernwisdom，获取我和我使用的同样血液检测套餐，立省100美元。
Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
那就是functionhealth.com/modernwisdom。
That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
谈谈焦虑和不确定性吧。
Talk to me about the anxiety and uncertainty thing.
因为根据我接触的很多人来看，这种高度警觉源于成长过程中充满不确定性的环境。
Because it feels like that based on a lot of the people that I speak to, the the hypervigilance that people have from maybe an uncertain atmosphere growing up.
对。
Right.
也许当时的沟通并不透明，他们不得不敏锐地察觉细微的动作，揣摩话语背后的含义。
Maybe communication wasn't super transparent, and they needed to be able to detect the micro movements of exactly what was going on and read into sentences.
也许爱是 conditional 的，对。
Maybe love was contingent Right.
取决于表现。
On performance.
也许他们的神经系统从未感到平静，也许也许也许，我认为根据我在现场活动中的对话，以及观众在会后问答环节或与我交流时提出的问题，很多人本质上都在说：我真的非常难以忍受对未来的不确定性。
Maybe their nervous system just didn't feel soothed, maybe maybe maybe maybe I think that that, based on the conversations that I have at the live shows as well, the people that come up and do the meet and greet or the questions that I get that that are done at the q and a's afterward, so many of them are basically around, I I really fucking struggle with the uncertainty of the future.
是的。
Yeah.
像容忍模糊性、不确定性和不可预测性，感觉就像一种奇怪的个人诅咒。
Like, tolerating ambiguity, uncertainty, unpredictability feels like some weird personal curse.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不确定性是个问题。
So uncertainty is a problem.
但风险不是，顺便说一下。
Risk isn't, by the way.
风险和不确定性是不同的，但人们经常把它们混为一谈。
Risk and uncertainty are different, and people use them interchangeably.
不确定性意味着你不知道可能发生什么，因此无法分配概率，也无法管理应对措施。
Uncertainty means you don't know what might happen, so you can't assign probabilities, so you can't manage contingencies.
风险则是你知道可能发生什么，因此可以分配概率，也可以管理应对措施。
Risk is that you know what might happen, so you can assign probabilities, so you can manage contingencies.
这就是为什么人们购买保险时感觉更好。
That's the reason that people feel better when they buy insurance.
保险是一种幸福产业。
Insurance is a happiness business.
它把不确定性转化为风险，从而不再成为痛苦的来源。
What it does is it converts uncertainty into risk, and it no longer becomes a source of misery.
这就是为什么任何购买人寿保险的人都会在购买后感觉更好，因为他们已经将不确定性转化为风险。
That's why anybody who buys a life insurance policy feels better after they do it because they've just turned their uncertainty into risk.
不确定性是恐惧的根源，它会刺激杏仁核，因为杏仁核认为这会让你过度警觉。
Uncertainty is a source of fear, and that stimulates the amygdala Because the amygdala says it makes you hypervigilant.
当不确定性很高时，你会比平常更加警觉，而这正是负面情绪的来源。
And when there's a lot of uncertainty, you're more vigilant than you would have been otherwise, and that's a source of negative emotion.
所以你一直在感受这种持续的负面情绪。
So you're feeling this constant sort of negative emotion.
为什么警觉会成为负面情绪的来源？
Why is vigilance a source of negative emotion?
因为你警觉的是威胁，而威胁只是一种可能性。
Because you're vigilant against threat, and it's the possibility of threat.
当你处于不确定状态时，有趣的是，我们其实对很多种不确定性根本不会担心。
When you're uncertain, it's funny because, you know, there there's all kinds of uncertainty that we don't worry about at all.
对吧？
Right?
不确定性，比如事情可能会很好。
Uncertainty, like, things might be great.
你不会担心那个。
You're not worried about that.
对吧？
Right?
这很有趣，因为我经常谈论等待。
It's just funny because, you know, I do a lot of stuff on waiting.
等待是一件很有趣的事。
Waiting is a funny thing.
有一种等待是美好的。
There's waiting that's wonderful.
就像我在等圣诞节。
That's like I'm waiting for Christmas.
而且，圣诞节灯饰在美国万圣节后才亮起，是因为我们想让这个季节更长久一些，想多等一会儿，这是积极的。
And and I the reason that the the Christmas lights go up in America after after Halloween is because we wanna savor the season longer because we wanna wait longer, and that's positive.
有些事情可能发生，也可能不会发生。
There are certain things that might happen and might not.
所以我们对这些事感到焦虑，但这种焦虑是带着快乐和乐观的。
And so there we're anxious about it, but anxious in kind of a happy way, in an optimistic way.
有些事情可能会出错，也可能没事，但也可能很糟糕。
There are certain things that might go wrong and might be okay, but might be terrible.
就像医生的检查结果一样。
That's like tests from the doctor.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这才是真正的焦虑。
And that's real anxiety.
还有一种情况是你知道结果一定会很糟，那就是恐惧。
And then there's the one that you know it's gonna be bad, that's dread.
所以这是一整系列的
And so there's a whole range
各种不同的不确定性。
Suites of different uncertainties.
说到等待和不确定性，确实如此。
When it comes to waiting and uncertainty, for sure.
当人们说，我很担心不确定性时，他们其实是在担心威胁。
So when people say, you know, I'm really worried about uncertainty, they're worried about threats.
威胁警觉确实是人类进化的一部分。
And threat vigilance is really part of human evolution.
我们这个物种之所以能生存下来，正是因为我们在面对不确定性时保持警觉。
We've you know, the species has survived because of threat vigilance in the way that we're vigilant in the face of uncertainty.
问题是，这种机制严重失调了。
The problem is it's really dysregulated.
它没有按照应有的方式运作。
It's it doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
我们本应偶尔感到极度恐惧，然后突然爆发。
We're supposed to be occasionally really fearful and then have a sudden burst.
HPA轴失控，我们就开始奔跑，爬到树上。
The HPA axis goes bonkers, and we we just start running and climb a tree.
但这种情况本应是偶尔发生的，强度极高，而且不频繁。
But that's supposed to be occasional and super is intense and and and not very frequent.
就这一点而言，你认为祖先进化过程中斑马不会得溃疡的解释有多可能？它来得快去得也快，而且你
How just on that, how likely do you think it is that the ancestral evolutionary zebras don't get ulcers explanation for it comes and it goes, and you
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
把它甩掉。
Shake it off.
你觉得这在祖先时期是准确的吗？
Do you think that that was ancestrally accurate?
你觉得这确实是这样的，对吧？
You think that that was, like Yeah.
这个
The
对。
Yeah.
我觉得是的。
I think it was.
我认为他们那时候没有推特。
I don't think it they they didn't have Twitter.
所以他们不会坐在那儿想，那个推文反响怎么样。
And so they weren't, you know, sitting around going, I wonder if wonder how that tweet did.
我想我明白这一点，但那个住在隔壁洞穴的人总盯着我的东西，这种长期压力又怎么说呢？
I wonder I I understand on that, but what about the chronic that guy in the next cave keeps eyeing up my Yeah.
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