#1050 - 唐纳德·罗伯逊 - 缓解焦虑的实用技巧

它阻止你向自己证明或发现其实并不会发生什么灾难性的事情，前提是这种恐惧是不理性的或没有根据的。

It prevents you demonstrating to yourself or discovering that nothing catastrophic happens, assuming it's an irrational or an unfounded fear.

因此，你会一直带着某些错误的或不切实际的假设，而这些假设在现实中从未被证伪。

So you carry about certain false assumptions or unrealistic assumptions that never get disproved in practice.

它阻止你评估自己的应对能力，也阻碍你改进和提升应对技巧——这同样是关键的一点。

It prevents you from evaluating your coping ability and maybe refining and improving your coping skills, basically, which would be another key thing.

当你多次直面恐惧时，你就会逐渐找到应对它们的方法。

So you face your fears enough time, you kind of figure out ways of dealing with them.

基本上，你根本没有机会去做这些。

Basically you don't get a chance to do that.

如果你一直在逃避，你就得不到任何练习或投入时间的机会，这还会让你随着时间推移对相关线索更加敏感。

You'll get zero practice or time on task if you're avoiding stuff and it increases sensitization to the cues over time.

所以，从某种意义上说，回避才是万恶之源，抱歉，我说的是回避。

So anxiety really is the root of all evil from a kind of avoidance, sorry, is the root of all evil.

你会发现这里的悖论在于，大多数人认为焦虑才是问题所在，而回避只是应对焦虑的一种方式，但事实上，焦虑本身可能并没有那么糟糕。

I mean, you'll notice the paradox here is that most people assume anxiety is the problem and maybe avoidance is a way of coping with it, but it might be the anxiety in itself isn't actually that bad.

而回避才是更大的问题，对吧？

And that avoidance is the bigger problem, right?

因为回避会损害你的生活和人际关系。

Because avoidance damages your life and relationships.

它阻止你申请工作。

It prevents you from applying for jobs.

它以一种比长期影响你作为人类的繁荣能力更广泛的方式改变你的行为。

It changes your behavior in ways that have a wider impact than a longer term effect on your ability to flourish as a human being.

你在感到焦虑时也能做很多事情。

You can do a lot of stuff while feeling anxious.

焦虑并没有人们想象的那么糟糕，对吧？

Anxiety isn't as bad as people think, right?

一旦你习惯了，就会觉得这有什么大不了的？

Once you get used to it, you think so what?

我的手在出汗之类的。

My hands are sweating and stuff.

比如，我的心跳会稍微快一点。

Like, my heart's beating a little bit faster.

你甚至可以把这种感觉重新理解为兴奋。

You can even reframe it as excitement.

我以前总说这只是肾上腺素激增。

I used to say it's just an adrenaline rush.

这没什么大不了的。

It's not a big deal.

所以你会看到很多表演者都会忍耐他们的焦虑，尤其是单口喜剧演员。

So you'll see a lot performers will just ride out their anxiety, especially comedians, stand up comedians.

比如，如果你去现场看他们的演出，我记得以前在伦敦经常去看很多场，那些我看过的人可能大多是在酒吧楼上的小场地表演，经验还不太足。

Like if you go and see them live, like I think I used to go and see a lot of shows in London and those guys often maybe the ones I saw weren't as experienced just in function rooms above bars and things like that.

他们中的大多数人看起来都吓坏了，对吧？

More like probably majority of them look terrified, right?

但他们很多时候都把这种紧张感融入了自己的表演中。

But they just kind of incorporated that into their act a lot of times.

我认为首先我们必须处理回避问题，对吧？

I think you can, first of all, we've got to deal with avoidance, right?

分散注意力的方法、压抑情绪、用药物和酒精来应对，比如冲动行为——自慰，但担忧本身也是一种适应不良的应对策略。

Distraction techniques, suppression of the feeling, using drugs and alcohol to cope, like impulsive behaviors, like masturbation, but also worrying itself is kind of like a maladaptive coping strategy.

担忧本质上是一种失败的问题解决方式，或者它与过度准备之类的行为有些重叠。

Worrying is kind of like failed problem solving, or it's kind of overlaps a bit with over preparation and stuff like that.

有一位叫汤姆·博罗维奇的人，他几乎是研究担忧的顶尖专家。

There's a guy called Tom Borkovic, who's one basically probably the leading researcher on worry.

他提出了将担忧视为一种回避形式的理论。

And he forwards the theory called conceptualizing worry as a form of avoidance.

他称之为担忧的认知回避模型。

He calls it the cognitive avoidance model of worry.

当人们担忧时，他们会欺骗自己，以为自己正在面对问题。

So people, when they worry about stuff, they kind of trick themselves into thinking they're facing the problem.

我得好好想想这个问题。

I've got to think about this problem.

我得想办法解决这个问题，伙计。

I've got to figure out a solution, buddy.

天哪，我凌晨三点就醒了，克里斯。

Like, Oh man, I woke up at three in the morning, Chris.

我在想我在出租车里犯的某个错误之类的事。

And I'm like, thinking about a mistake that I made in my taxis or something.

我整晚都醒着，担心如果发生这种情况怎么办，如果发生那种情况怎么办？

I was up all night, like worrying about what if this happens, what if that happens?

我该怎么应对呢？

How am I going to cope with that?

试着找出一个解决方案。

Try to figure out a solution.

但担忧的作用是让你以一种抽象的方式来回跳跃。

And, but what worrying does is it causes you to kind of jump around in an abstract way.

它阻止你以具体的方式直面问题，而那样你的焦虑会飙升，然后你就能挺过去。

Like, so it prevents you from really confronting your problems in a concrete way where your anxiety would spike and then you'd get through it.

所以它实际上让焦虑保持在一个中等水平。

So it kind of maintains anxiety at a moderate level.

所以这实际上更像是一种伪装成解决问题的回避行为。

So it's actually more like a kind of weird, it's like avoidance in disguise.

你以为自己在面对问题并试图解决它们，但其实你并没有真正去做。

You think you're facing problems and trying to solve them, you're not really doing it.

因此，焦虑从来都没有真正消失。

And so the anxiety never really extinguishes.

我用一项奇怪的研究来支持这个观点。

I'll back that up with a weird piece of research.

我之前跟你提到过那个养猫的女人。

Talked to you earlier about the woman with the cats.

对于大多数形式的焦虑，心率是一个相当可靠的指标。

With most forms of anxiety, heart rate is a pretty robust measure.

研究人员在研究那些经历严重病理性担忧的人时，发现他们患有广泛性焦虑障碍，对吧？

Researchers looking at people who experience severe pathological worrying have GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, right?

这被称为担忧障碍。

It's something called the worrying disorder.

对于这些人，你可以让他们练习担忧某些事情，进行担忧练习，并测量心率、皮肤电反应、呼吸以及脑成像等指标。

So with those people, you can get them to practice worrying about stuff and just worry episodes and measure the heart rate and galvanic skin response, the respiration and stuff like that, the brain imaging and stuff.

研究发现，这些人会说他们的焦虑水平达到了100%。

And what researchers found was these people will say my level of anxiety is a 100%.

我处于很高的双位数水平，就像我们在苏格兰说的那样，我简直要崩溃了，对吧？

I'm up to high double, as we say in Scotland, like I was freaking out, right?

所以我的焦虑真的很高。

So my anxiety is really high.

我们有时会说，我正在经历焦虑发作，但心率并没有上升那么多。

Like I'm having an anxiety attack, we'll sometimes say, but the heart rate doesn't go up that much.

其他焦虑的生理迹象也并没有真正出现。

And the other physiological signs of anxiety don't really appear.

对于有猫恐惧症的女性，克里斯，你几乎可以肯定她们的心率会明显上升，对吧？

The women with a cat phobia, Chris, pretty much guarantee you your heart rate is going show up, right?

有恐慌发作的人，你几乎可以肯定他的心率会飙升到极点。

Someone with a panic attack, pretty much guarantee your heart rate is going be through the roof.

那些没有焦虑发作的人，心率其实并不会明显升高。

There's somebody who's not worry episode, the heart rate doesn't really got that.

有时候甚至会稍微下降，这相当反常，对吧？

And sometimes even goes down slightly, which is pretty paradoxical, right?

在焦虑发作中，有一个始终一致的症状，那就是肌肉紧张。

There's one symptom of anxiety that appears consistently in worry episodes and that's muscular tension.

所以，经常焦虑的人往往会紧绷脖子和肩膀，还会紧绷额头的肌肉，以及其他一些莫名其妙的身体部位。

So people that are worrying tend to tense up their neck and shoulders and they tense their forehead muscles, like other muscles around their body as well for some weird reason.

这强化了这样一种观点：也许他们并没有充分面对自己的恐惧，以真正地情绪化地处理它们。

That fuels the idea that maybe they're not really engaging with their fears sufficiently to actually process them emotionally.

我来告诉你我们通常用什么方法来应对焦虑，效果还不错。

I'll tell you what we tend to do with worrying that works pretty well.

在20世纪80年代，研究人员提出了一种方法，大多数临床医生称之为‘焦虑推迟’。

In the 1980s, researchers introduced a protocol, most clinicians call it worry postponement.

它最初被称为刺激控制法，对吧？

It was originally called the stimulus control method, right?

听起来好像很快。

And it sounds all that fast.

事实上，心理治疗史上效果最好的治疗方法往往是最简单的，而不是像弗洛伊德那样，整天研究俄狄浦斯情结、解梦之类的复杂玩意儿。

It's the most effective treatments in the history of psychotherapy tend to be the simplest ones in all honesty, not like Sigmund Freud with his Oedipus complex and interpretation of dreamers and all that kind of stuff.

在临床试验中表现最好的方法，通常都极其简单。

The things that actually perform best in clinical trials are usually incredibly simple.

我们就像是慢慢摸索出了暴露疗法，对吧？

And we just kind of figure out this like exposure therapy, right?

担忧延迟法，你几乎可以把它的操作说明写在一张名片背面。

Worry postponement, you could write the instructions almost in the back of a business card.

上世纪八十年代，研究人员给大学生们提供了这些指导，之后被多次重复验证。

They gave instructions to college students in the eighties, and this has been replicated many times.

我们现在不仅将这种方法用于广泛性焦虑障碍的病理性担忧，还将其改良后用于治疗临床抑郁症和愤怒情绪。

We now use this method not only for GAD pathological worrying, but it's also used in even in treating clinical depression and treating anger, like modified versions of it.

这一直是一种非常有效的技术。

It's been such a robust technique.

所以Instructions是，你需要在开始担心时及时察觉到它。

So the instructions are you need to spot when you're beginning to worry and catch it early.

然后你对自己说，我现在没有合适的心态来思考这个问题。

And then you say to yourself, I'm not in the right frame of mind to think about this right now.

我会稍后再回来处理。

I'll come back to it later.

我安排了一个计划好的担心时间，比如今晚7点，那是我专门用来担心的时间。

A planned worry time that I've set aside like 07:00 this evening when I like to do my worry.

所以我会真的写在纸上，担心税务问题，担心我正在担心的事情，担心跟克里斯无话可说。

So I'll really write down about paper worrying about taxes, worrying about what I'm worrying about, running out of things to say to Chris.

我会把这些写在纸上，放进口袋，稍后再回来处理。

I'll write that down about paper, stick it in my pocket, come back to that later.

到了7点，或者你指定的担心时间，你就坐下来。

And then at 07:00 or whatever your prescribed worry time is, you sit down.

如果它仍然是个真实的问题，你就坐下来解决问题，认真思考。

If it's still a real problem, you sit down and problem solver, think about it.

如果它看起来并不像是个真正的问题，那就干脆把它忘掉。

If it doesn't seem like it's a real thing, then you just kind of forget about it.

这基本上就是这个最简单版本的协议的全部内容。

And that's more or less all there is to the simplest version of the protocol.

这种方法能在两到三周内将担忧的频率、强度和持续时间减少大约百分之五十。

That reduces the frequency, intensity and duration of worry episodes by roughly fifty percent within two or three weeks.

你会想，这到底发生了什么？

You think, what the hell is going on there?

对吧？

Right?

看起来他们并没有做多少事情。

It doesn't seem like they're really doing all that much.

但关键在于，担忧会让你感觉好像在解决问题，而你需要明白，你的大脑会进入不同的运作状态。

But the trick is that worrying feels like you're fixing a problem, but you need to understand that your brain goes into different states of functioning.

这就像醉酒和清醒之间，或者昏昏欲睡和完全清醒之间的区别。

It's like being drunk versus being sober or being drowsy versus being fully awake.

所以当焦虑被触发时，战斗或逃跑反应也会被激活，你会想：我必须立即解决这个问题。

So when anxiety is triggered, fight or flight response is triggered or whatever, you think, I need to solve this problem urgently.

但你并不处于理想的问题解决心态，因为焦虑会扭曲你的思维。

But you're not in the ideal problem solving state of mind because anxiety biases your thinking.

它让你夸大风险的严重性和发生概率，同时低估你应对问题的能力。

It causes you to exaggerate the severity and probability of risks, causes you to underestimate your coping ability.

你退回到更简单的非黑即白的思维方式，因为你基本上已经切换了开关，进入了应急模式。

You revert back to more simplistic black and white thinking because you've basically flipped a switch and turned on the emergency mode.

你的杏仁核开始接管你的思维过程。

Your amygdala is kind of like starting to hijack your thinking.

因此，你现在以低带宽、快速且极端的方式思考。

So you're now thinking in low bandwidth, rapid terms and extreme terms.

你的大脑并不处于适合解决问题的运作模式，尤其是针对复杂的社交问题之类的情况。

Your brain isn't in the right mode of functioning to engage in problem solving, especially for complex interpersonal problems and things like that.

所以这就是为什么你会原地打转的部分原因。

So that's partly why you'll go around in circles.

如果你说，我稍后再处理这个问题，今晚7点，我会坐下来，放上我最爱的焦虑音乐。

If you say, I'll come back to this later, 07:00 tonight, I'm going to sit down, I'll put on my favorite worry music.

就像我会穿上我舒适的焦虑拖鞋，戴上我最喜欢的焦虑帽。

Like I'll slip into my comfy worry slippers and put on my little worrying hat that I like to wear.

然后我坐下来，好好地想一想我的担忧，对吧？

And I'll sit and have a good old think about my worries, right?

但当你现在这样做时，你用的是大脑的新皮层、前额叶皮层——这部分大脑本就专为解决问题、纵观全局和理性思考而设计。

But when you're doing that now, you're using your neocortex, your prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain that's actually designed for problem solving and looking at the bigger picture and thinking rationally.

所以不会，因为你主动选择了什么时候去做这件事。

So no, because you're choosing when you're going to do that.

关键在于，你基本上是在用大脑的不同模式运作。

The trick is you're using your brain in a different mode of functioning basically.

而且你更有可能以更平衡、更细致的方式把事情想清楚。

And you're probably going to think things through in a more balanced, nuanced way.

这就是为什么这种方法通常更有效。

That's why it tends to work better.

有些人觉得推迟思考问题看起来很奇怪。

Some people think it seems weird to postpone thinking about problems.

但如果你喝醉了，克里斯，你刚喝了一瓶威士忌，对吧？

But if you were drunk, Chris, you just had a bottle of whiskey, right?

你不会坐在那里想，现在是个合适的时间去骑摩托车、操作重型机械，或者做其他类似的事情。

You wouldn't sit there and think, well, this is a good time to get in my motorbike or operate heavy machinery or whatever you think.

我最好还是等情绪积累起来再说。

I should probably just wait until it's all built up.

你可能觉得，现在不是给多年没联系的姐姐打电话、和她争论家庭矛盾的好时机。

And you might think it's not a good time to phone up my sister that I haven't spoken to for years and have a debate with her about our family feuds and things like that.

我觉得我应该等清醒了再说。

I may think I should wait until I'm sober.

我们其实一直在用同样的方式推迟思考问题。

And the same way we postpone thinking about things all the time.

最好的、最简单的例子就是半夜时分。

Like the best and simplest example would be the middle of the night.

因此，有病态担忧的人几乎都伴有轻度失眠。

So people with pathological worrying almost always have insipient insomnia as well.

他们通常难以入睡，因为躺在床上时总在担心各种事情。

They can't get to sleep usually, because they lie in bed worrying about stuff.

而正常人通常会想：天啊，也许我的报税表哪里出错了之类的。

Whereas normally what the normal people do, they think, Oh man, maybe I've got something wrong in my tax returns or whatever.

他们会想：是啊，但现在都凌晨两点了。

They think, Yeah, but it's like two in the morning.

我明天再想这个问题。

I'll think about this tomorrow.

所以他们会把问题搁置一旁，告诉自己改天再处理。

So they kind of set shelf up and they go, come back to it later.

有些人发现他们做不到这一点。

Some people find that they can't do that.

他们缺乏推迟思考问题的认知能力。

They don't have the cognitive skills to be able to postpone thinking about things.

因此，他们的担忧会失控，因为你当时也半睡半醒。

So they're worrying spirals out of control because you're half asleep as well.

这并不是一个合适的时间。

It's not really an appropriate time.

但如果你正在给孩子讲睡前故事，突然想到：天啊，我还没想好明天采访唐纳德要问什么问题，或者其他类似的事情。

But if you were telling your kids a bedtime story and you suddenly thought, Oh man, like I still haven't figured out what questions I'm going to ask Donald and that interview that I'm doing tomorrow or whatever.

你不会说：等等，孩子们，让我先去担心一下这事。

You wouldn't think, hang on kids, let me just go away and worry about this for a bit.

等我担心完了，再回来把故事讲完。

And then when I finished, I'll come back and finish a story.

你会对这个想法说：我先把这事放一放，等会儿再回来处理，因为我现在正忙着呢。

You would say to the thought, I'll put pen in this and I'll come back to it later because I'm kind of busy right now.

所以，把侵入性的焦虑想法推迟到更合适的时间再回应，实际上是完全自然的。

So it's actually completely natural to postpone responding to intrusive anxious thoughts until a more appropriate time.

但很多人并不知道这一点。

But a lot of people don't know that.

学校里也不会告诉孩子们这些，你知道吗？

They don't tell kids that at school, you know?

有些人只是养成了让焦虑想法主导思维的习惯，对吧？

And some people just get in the habit of allowing their anxious thoughts to hijack their thinking, right?

所以，仅仅这一项简单的技能就能带来很大不同。

So that simple skill alone can make a big difference.

这表明，担忧在某种程度上可以被视为一种回避问题的表现，因为我们以为自己在思考并解决问题，但实际上并不在合适的心态下进行。

And it shows you know, worrying in a way could be seen as a problem of avoidance because we were thinking about things and we feel that we're solving a problem, but we're not in the right state of mind to do it.

而且我们是以一种非常抽象的方式在做这件事。

And we're doing it in such an abstract way.

通常来说，这并没有什么实际好处。

Usually, it's not really beneficial.

另外，本集由 RP Strength 赞助播出。

In other news, this episode is brought to you by RP Strength.

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This training app has made a huge impact on my gains and enjoyment in the gym over the last two years now.

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It's designed by doctor Mike Israel and comes with over 45 premade training programs, 250 technique videos, takes all of the guesswork out of crafting the ideal lifting routine by literally spoon feeding you a step by step plan for every workout.

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It guides you on the exact sets, reps, and weight to use, most importantly, how to perfect your form so every rep is optimized for maximum gains.

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It adjusts your weights each week based on your progress, and there's a thirty day money back guarantee.

所以你可以购买它，使用29天进行训练，如果不满意，他们会全额退款。

So you can buy it, train with it for twenty nine days, and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back.

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Right now, you can get up to $50 off the RP hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code Modern Wisdom at checkout.

那就是 rpstrength.com/modernwisdom，结账时使用 Modern Wisdom。

That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout.

你提到，一些有焦虑的人很难实施这种‘担忧时间延迟’策略。

You mentioned that some people who have anxiety struggle to be able to deploy that worry time delay strategy.

如果有人说，好吧。

What if someone says, okay.

我意识到我担心得太多了。

I realize I'm worrying too much.

我有侵入性想法。

I have intrusive thoughts.

我一直在反复思考。

I'm ruminating.

我无法选择它什么时候发生。

I don't get to choose when it happens.

当我告诉自己，明天晚上7点再处理这个问题时，我的大脑却说，好的，然后又立刻重新开始反复担心那些侵入性想法。

And when I say, I'll do this at 7PM tomorrow, my brain goes, okay, and then just goes straight back to worrying about the intrusive thoughts over and over again.

他们需要学习某些元认知技能，或者你愿意的话，也可以称为认知技能。

They need to learn certain metacognitive skills or whatever you like, cognitive skills.

你可以学会怎么做，对吧？

You can learn how to do that, right?

他们需要大量的这种训练，对吧？

They need a lot of that training, right?

这是自助方法存在一些局限性的另一个原因，因为有些你从治疗师那里学到的技术，就像去请教健身教练一样。

This is the other reason self help has some limitations because some of the techniques that you would learn from a therapist, I guess it would be like going to a fitness instructor or something.

有些练习可能对人们有帮助，但他们可能需要被正确地教导如何进行这些练习，并且在完全投入之前可能需要更好的准备。

There are certain exercises that might benefit people, but they probably need to be taught how to do them properly and they maybe need a better preparation before they kind of get fully into doing them.

所以，要有效地进行担忧推迟，你可能需要更好的准备、更专业的指导和培训，才能真正从这些技术中获益。

So they might To do worry postponement effectively, you might need a better preparation, a better coaching, better training to actually get the most out of the techniques.

所以简短的回答是，他们可能需要培养一种我们称之为认知解离的技能。

So short answer, they need to probably develop a skill that we call cognitive diffusion.

它有不同的叫法，对吧？

There's different names for it, right?

有时它被称为认知疏离或语言解离。

Sometimes it's called cognitive distancing or verbal diffusion.

这是你之前提到的接纳与承诺疗法（ACT）的重要组成部分。

It's a big part of ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy that you mentioned earlier.

在治疗中，通常有五六种或更多的策略来实现这一点。

There's like half a dozen or more strategies for doing it that are commonly used in therapy.

所以这是一个重要的概念。

So it's an important concept.

所以我来稍微解释一下。

So I'll explain a little bit about it.

通常，当人们有想法时，他们会通过想法的视角来看待世界。

Normally when people have thoughts, they kind of look at the world through the lens of the thought.

就像你通过望远镜观察一样，对吧？

Just like you're looking through a telescope or something, right?

你不是在看望远镜本身，而是透过望远镜去看远处的东西。

You're not looking at the telescope, you look through the telescope, like at things way off in the distance.

当你对未来进行灾难化想象时，你就像透过灾难性的双筒望远镜或灾难性的望远镜在看，比如：‘天啊，如果真发生了怎么办？’

When you're catastrophizing about the future, you're kind of looking through catastrophic binoculars or a catastrophic telescope like, Oh man, what if that happens?

那可太糟糕了。

That would be awful.

我该怎么应对呢？

How am I going to cope with it?

所以，认知解离就是退后一步，观察这个望远镜。

So diffusion would be taking a step back and looking at the telescope.

它就像是从一旁观察你的想法，或者说，把你的想法看作是当下在你脑海中发生的一种过程或活动，而不是让注意力被这些想法所引导或过滤。

It's observing your thoughts kind of from one side almost, or sometimes you would say it's like observing your thoughts as a process or an activity that's taking place in the present moment in your mind, rather than allowing your attention to be funneled or channeled through those thoughts.

这最初听起来有点奇怪，但本质上是一个简单的概念。

It's a little bit of a weird concept at first, but in a way it's a simple concept.

我们所知道的一些心理学原理其实是一些很简单的想法，只是我们不一定有很好的语言来表达它们。

Some of the things we know about psychology are like kind of simple ideas, but we don't always have good language to articulate them.

因此，这也是为什么人们有时通过辅导更容易掌握这种方法的原因。

And so that, again, that's another reason people sometimes do a lot better coaching to get the knack of it.

但认知解离其实很简单。

But defusion is a simple thing.

最简单的方法就是对自己说：现在，我注意到我在担心缴税的事。

The simplest way to do it would be just to say to yourself, right now, I noticed that I'm worrying about paying my taxes.

对吧？

Right?

这迫使你进入元认知意识，或这种抽离的视角，观察自己的想法。

And that forces you into metacognitive awareness or like this kind of detached perspective observing your own thoughts.

然后，你就更容易与这些想法脱钩了。

And then it becomes easier to disengage from them basically.

或者，你也可以用另一个技巧：你现在注意到唐纳德在想，如果这件事发生了怎么办？

Or you might say another trick you can play is you could say, right now I noticed that Donald is having the thought, what if this happens?

如果那件事发生了怎么办？

What if that happens?

这通过用第三人称指代自己——使用自己的名字、第三人称代词等等——将你推向第三人称视角。

And that pushes me into a third person perspective by referring to myself in the third person, by using my name, using third person pronouns or whatever.

我可以提醒自己退到一旁，成为自己想法的观察者。

I can check myself into stepping to one side and becoming an observer of my thoughts.

然后我可能会说：现在我注意到唐纳德在担心他的税款。

Then I might say, right now I notice Donald's worrying about his taxes.

我现在不需要思考这个问题。

I don't need to think about that right now.

把它放一边，等我有足够注意力时再回来处理。

Set it aside and back to it later when I can give it my full attention.

所以这里有一个微妙的点，有人很容易会把它变成一种逃避技巧。

So again, there's a subtle point here that someone would easily turn that into an avoidance technique.

但重点是要强调，你之后会回来，并给予它全部的注意力。

But the point is to emphasize that you're going to come back to it later and give it your full attention.

有一种技巧，能把看似逃避的行为转化为它的反面——一种接纳的形式。

There's a knack to turning what seems like avoidance into its opposite, into a form of acceptance.

我希望你能认真思考这一点。

I want you to think about this properly.

所以我会等我有足够注意力时再回来处理。

So I'm going to come back to it later when I can give it my full attention.

这样你就不会向你的大脑传递一种信息，即你害怕这些想法，或者认为它们是危险的、有问题的。

So that way you're not sending the message to your brain that you're scared of these thoughts or that they're dangerous and a problem.

你说：不，我想直面它们。

You're saying, No, I want to look at them.

我实际上会更彻底地去面对它们，以一种更坚定的方式。

I'm gonna look at them actually more fully, like in a more committed way.

这往往会带来一种自信感，同时也能缓解焦虑。

And that tends to create a sense of confidence and it takes the edge off the anxiety as well.

对于那些说‘我知道这不合逻辑，但我还是有这种感觉’的人，CBT的流程是什么？

What's the CBT process for someone who says, I know it's irrational, but I still feel it.

对吧？

Right?

现在这种感觉已经往下延伸到身体了。

It's gone below the neck now.

它在身体里，我就在这里感受到了。

It's in the body, and I'm feeling it here.

就像焦虑一样。

Like anxiety.

我就是有一种强烈的焦虑感。

I've just got this kind of visceral feeling of anxiety.

不同的CBT从业者可能会根据他们所倾向的认知疗法或行为疗法流派，给出不同的看法，对吧？

Well, different CBT practitioners will maybe say different things about that depending what flavor of cognitive therapy or behavioral therapy they're into, right?

有些人会说，好吧，那我们来教你一些放松技巧，以降低神经系统的兴奋度。

Some people would say, okay, well let's teach you relaxation techniques then to lower nervous arousal.

如果你需要的话，像那些更偏向行为疗法的人可能会这么做，比如应对技巧；而像贝克这样的传统认知疗法专家则认为，你可能有一些自动思维，而你自己并没有完全意识到。

If that's what you need, like someone who's more behaviorally inclined would do that maybe, or coping skills, someone like Beck and traditional cognitive therapy makes it maybe that you've got automatic thoughts that you're just not fully conscious of.

所以你需要更加留意，捕捉那些在脑海中一闪而过的、非常迅速的前意识想法。

So you need to kind of like just pay closer attention and catch those very rapid preconscious thoughts when they're flashing through your mind.

像阿尔伯特·埃利斯这样更偏向哲学倾向的人会说，你的信念可能并没有完全进入意识层面。

Someone like Albert Ellis is more philosophically inclined would say, well, your beliefs might not be fully conscious.

我们大部分的信念都不是有意识的。

Most of our beliefs aren't.

它们可能隐含在你的行为和感受之中。

They may be implicit in your behavior and in your feelings.

比如，克里斯，你有多少个信念啊，老兄？

Like for example, Chris, how many beliefs do you have buddy?

数百万，数百万个。

Millions, millions.

伍兹，可能太多了，对吧？

Woods, too many probably, right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以你不会去数，他们也不会说，你整天在脑子里重复所有这些信念，对吧？

So you don't count and they say, you don't go around repeating them all in your head all of the time, right?

你很可能有很多信念，甚至都没有用语言明确表达出来。

You've probably got loads of beliefs that you haven't even really formulated in words.

它们只是隐含在你的个性和行为中。

They're just kind of implicit in your personality and your behavior and stuff.

而ALS更关注的就是这一点。

And that's what ALS is more focused on.

他会说，你有一些潜在的信念和态度，我们可以针对它们进行干预。

He'd say, you've got these underlying beliefs and attitudes that we could target.

所以，也许你感觉自己必须把事情做到完美，否则就会酿成灾难。

So maybe it kind of feels as if you're demanding that you have to get things right, otherwise it would be a catastrophe.

这并不意味着你一定在心里反复对自己这么说，但你的行为和感受可能正是如此。

It doesn't mean that you necessarily say that to yourself, but that might be how you're acting and feeling.

因此，即使这些信念并没有以你反复在脑海中重复的明确语句形式存在，它们仍然可以被质疑，对吧？

And so those beliefs could be disputed even though they're maybe not things that are taking the form of conscious sentences that you're repeating to yourself, right?

或者，就像我所说的，有些人可能会教你一些放松技巧，比如释放紧张的方法。

Or you can just, you know, like I said, some people might just teach you tension release relaxation techniques.

我也想就这一点说几句。

I feel inclined to say something about that as well.

比如，为了强调一下，这里还有另一个领域的例子。

Like, you know, just to kind of highlight, there's another example of an area.

开发出认知行为疗法中主要放松技术的那个人，是20世纪20年代的一位生理学教授，名叫埃德蒙·雅各布森，他是生物反馈领域的先驱之一。

The guy that developed the main relaxation techniques that are used in CBT was a professor of physiology called Edmund Jacobson back in the 1920s, one of the pioneers of biofeedback.

雅各布森对肌肉放松进行了细致入微的研究。

And Jacobson studied muscle relaxation in minute detail.

他发现了一个悖论。

And what he discovered was a paradox.

他发现大多数人能放松到中等程度，但当他们试图进一步放松时，反而会更加紧张。

He found that most people can relax to a kind of medium level, but then when they try to relax deeper, they actually tense up.

他说，他们其实是在努力。

And he said that they're committing, right?

他说，他们犯了他所称的‘努力错误’。

He said they're committing what he called the effort error.

所以他们心想：我真的很努力地想放松。

So they're like, I'm trying really hard to relax.

该死。

Goddammit.

然后

Then

这就像一种古老的、有点儿哲学的东西。

it's Like, Ancient, kinda yeah, philosophy.

哇哦。

Woo wee.

努力不去努力。

Trying not to try.

是的。

Yeah.

你必须以某种方式减少努力。

You have to reduce the effort somehow.

所以雅各布森想，怎样才能继续放松，却又不去刻意放松呢？

And so Jacobson thought, well, how can you carry on relaxing, but without trying to relax?

于是他的方法就是，找到了一个绕开这个问题的办法：先绷紧你的肌肉，然后专注感受大约三十秒左右。

And so his technique, he figured out a way around that, which is that you tense your muscles and you studied the feelings attention for like thirty seconds or whatever.

然后你放松肌肉。

And then you let go of the tension.

所以你要先专注于紧绷肌肉，然后体会放松那种感觉。

So you focus on tensing up first and then the feeling of letting go of that.

通过逐步这样做，你应该每次都能放松得更深。

By doing that progressively, you should be able to let go more deeply each time.

这是身体放松吗？

Is body relaxation?

为什么肌肉放松这么重要？

Why is relaxing of the muscles so important?

它有助于降低交感神经系统的活跃度。

It tends to lower sympathetic nervous system arousal.

因此，这可以作为一种潜在的方法，来缓解焦虑的生理层面。

So it could be as one way of potentially dumping down the kind of physiological side of anxiety.

但同样，有时这会适得其反，因为人们可能会把放松当作消除焦虑的手段。

But again, sometimes that can backfire because people might use relaxation as a way to try to get rid of their anxiety.

这是另一种回避策略。

It's another avoidance strategy.

这是一种回避策略。

It

这可能是一种回避策略，对吧？

could be an avoidance strategy, right?

但我相信，关于这一点还存在一些争议？

But you can, I believe there's some debate about this?

这就进入了治疗师们争论不休的‘极客领域’，他们对各种方法有不同的解读。

This is where we get in the kind of nerdville of like therapy, therapists disagreeing with things and putting different spins on them.

可以说，你可以稍微调整一下目标，比如：目标不是消除肌肉紧张，而是放松下来，接纳焦虑的其他症状？

Arguably, you can kind of just modify it a little bit and you could say, well, what if the goal is to let go of the muscular tension and kind of relax into acceptance of the other symptoms of anxiety?

我的心跳得很快。

So my heart's beating really fast.

如果我试着放松，或者只是告诉自己不要对心跳加快做出紧张反应，而是顺其自然，接纳心跳加速和其他焦虑的生理感受，怎么样？

What if I kind of let go or what if I just think of myself as not tensing up in response to that and kind of letting go and relaxing into the feeling of my heart beating fast and the other involuntary sensations of anxiety, right?

但若我试图通过放松来消除焦虑感，那可能会适得其反。

But if I think I'm trying to relax away the feelings of anxiety, that might backfire.

如果我想象自己接纳这些感受，那么它实际上可以被转化为一种情感接纳技巧，可以说。

If I imagine myself as relaxing into them, then it could actually be turned into a form of emotional acceptance technique, arguably.

显然，直到大约十年前，如果我们讨论焦虑，很多观点都显得非常自上而下。

Obviously, there's a lot of I guess, up until maybe about ten years ago, if we were having a conversation about anxiety, a lot of it would have felt very top down.

现在，我看到越来越多关于神经系统调节、自主神经功能失调、迷走神经刺激等自下而上的方法。

Now I'm seeing increasing amounts of nervous system regulation, dysautonomia, vagus nerve stimulation, bottom up approaches to this.

你如何看待在担忧或焦虑这类问题上，自下而上与自上而下方法的比例如何？

What's your perspective on how the blend what what the proportion is of bottom up versus top down for something like worry or anxiety?

所以我更倾向于认知视角。

So I I lean more towards the cognitive perspective.

我的意思是，说实话，在实践中两种方法都有效。

Like, I mean, I I didn't ask to be truthful in practice, like both approaches can work.

对吧？

Right?

但令人烦恼的是，我们虽然有大量的心理治疗优质研究，但更难获得的是长期随访研究，比如一年后、两年后的效果。

But what we lack annoyingly is we've got loads of really good research on psychotherapy, but the one thing that's trickier is longer term follow-up research, like a year later, two years later.

因此，有一种观点认为，某些类型的认知改变可能更持久，比如通过放松技巧或接纳技巧来学习调节焦虑等。

So there is an argument that certain types of cognitive change might be more lasting, like learning to regulate anxiety by relaxation techniques or acceptance techniques and things like that.

这些技能可能非常有效，并且能够改变你的信念，因为你可以通过亲身实践证明自己有能力应对和承受这些情绪——例如，如果你以正确的方式运用这些技能，它们就能改变你的思维方式。

Those skills can be powerful and those can change your beliefs because you can prove to yourself that you're capable of coping and enduring the feelings, for example, if you apply those skills in the right kind of way, they can change your thinking.

但它们也可能只是暂时应对问题的方法。

But they can also be ways of dealing with a problem temporarily.

而当你未来遇到更压力巨大的事件时，这些事件可能会压垮你的应对策略，让你可能重新回到起点；或者有些人可能会发现，应对技能的一个问题是，人们过一段时间后就不再使用它们了。

And then when you maybe encounter a more stressful event in the future, like that overwhelms your coping strategies, you might potentially be back to square one or you might, some people might One problem with coping skills is that people just stop using them after a while.

因此，这是我们发现的一个潜在现象，但有时人们确实能从管理自己的情绪中获得持久的益处。

So that's one of the things that we've found potentially, but sometimes people get lasting benefits, you know, from managing how they feel.

所以这会有些许差异，但认知和行为上的改变重叠度很高，并且相互影响。

So it varies a little bit, but cognitive and kind of behavioral changes overlap quite a lot and interact with each other.

因此，将它们区分开来可能有点困难。

So it can be a little bit tricky to tease them apart.

但我相信，比如说，你根本的态度——阿尔伯特·埃利斯可能是最极端地主张追求普遍性深层认知改变的人。

But I believe, say for example, your underlying attitude, Albert Ellis was the one that probably went most to the extreme and trying to aim for very general underlying cognitive change.

所以埃利斯会告诉人们，也许你夸大了某些情境的严重性，或者误解了它们，这是一种进行认知干预的方式。

So Ellis would say to people, just that maybe you're exaggerating how bad particular situations are or you're misinterpreting them, which is one way of doing cognitive work.

但埃利斯会问：有没有哪种情境本质上真的是糟糕的？

But Ellis would say, are any situations really intrinsically awful?

比如，你是否在将主观价值投射到外部情境上，从而犯了某种错误？

Like, are you making a kind of error by projecting subjective values onto external situations?

你是否通过设定僵化的要求，比如‘我必须成功’、‘我绝不能犯错’，而让自己对表现感到焦虑？

Are you causing that by imposing rigid demands like that I almost must succeed and I must never make mistakes, for example, that are bound to make you feel anxious about your performance?

因此，埃利斯认为，这些塑造人们性格和情绪的普遍性规则，需要引起关注。

So Ellis thought these kinds of rules that people have that shape the character and their feelings in a very general way needed some attention.

这种做法可能比你提到的应对技巧或情绪自我调节方式具有更广泛、更持久的益处。

And it may be like that has more general benefits and more lasting benefits than the more kind of coping skills or emotional self regulation kind of approach that that you're talking about.

重要的不只是你的感受，还有你的思维方式。

It's not just how you feel, it's how you think.

为什么这句话如此重要？

Is why is that such an important sentence?

因为情绪并不是一团纯粹的能量。

Because emotions aren't just like a blob of energy.

它们其实是认知性的。

Like, they're they're cognitive.

你知道的。

You know?

它们与我们的思维紧密交织在一起。

They're intertwined with our thinking.

我们对自己的想法和信念拥有很大的控制力。

And we have a lot of control over our thoughts and beliefs.

我们可以改变它们。

We can change them.

一旦我们意识到焦虑常常与灾难化思维密切相关，比如，我们就开启了一整套认知疗法技巧，可以开始着手处理这个问题。

As soon as we realize that our anxiety often is very closely intertwined with catastrophic thinking, for example, we open up a whole toolbox of cognitive therapy techniques that allow us to begin working on that.

我们可以改变视角，挑战自己的信念，编写新的心理剧本，获得语言解离或认知距离。

We can change our perspective, we can challenge our beliefs, we can write different scripts, we can gain verbal diffusion or cognitive distancing.

但总的来说，我们拥有一套更庞大的技术工具箱，可以从中开始使用。

But a whole way, we have a much bigger toolbox of techniques that we could potentially use then for a start.

而且，有些人可能成功管理了自己的焦虑，但他们仍可能有其他问题。

And also it might be that somebody, for example, manages their anxiety, but they could still have other problems.

比如，他们可能仍在表现出回避行为。

Like they might still be exhibiting avoidance.

所以你会遇到一些人，他们说自己再也不感到焦虑了，因为喝太多威士忌了。

So you get guys, I really feel any anxiety anymore because I drink so much whiskey.

我几乎没什么焦虑了。

Like I'm pretty much anxiety free.

嘿，你确实没焦虑了，但现在你有了其他问题。

Hey, you go, but you've got other problems now.

而且你仍然在回避，比如说，不敢约女生出来约会之类的，你知道的，你只是有一种虚假的勇气。

And also you're still kind of avoiding, like, I don't know, asking girls out on dates or whatever it is, you know, like you've got kind of false courage.

这并没有在其他方面真正对你有帮助。

It's not really benefiting you in other ways.

因此，处理认知有时能帮助我们实现更深入、更广泛的改善，尤其是当我们针对那些真正的潜在态度时。

So addressing the cognitions can sometimes help us to get more deep and pervasive improvement, especially if we go for these real underlying attitudes.

我某些倾向非常普遍，我们所有人都会表现出这些倾向。

My certain tendencies are very, very common that we all exhibit.

我来举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

你可以教人们管理愤怒，教他们识别愤怒刚开始出现的迹象，尽早捕捉到它，及时制止，做三次深呼吸来降低神经系统的兴奋度，让前额叶皮层重新掌控局面，为自己争取一些时间，以便想出另一种应对方式。

You know, you could work on anger management with people and teach them coping skills like spot when your anger's beginning to arise, catch it really early, nip it in the bud, take three deep breaths to kind of downshift your nervous arousal a bit, to put your prefrontal cortex back in control, buy yourself some time, so that you can think of a different way to respond.

这些都属于应对技巧的范畴，对吧？

Those are kind of coping skills approach, right?

但你可能仍然会想，如果有人侮辱我，那就说明他是个十足的混蛋。

But you might still think if somebody insults me, then that just means that they're a total jerk.

如果克里斯说了我不喜欢的话，那就意味着他是个混蛋。

If Chris says something I don't like it means he's an asshole.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我在愤怒时可能有一种认知倾向，就是把人的个性简化为一个负面特质。

So I might have a tendency, there's a tendency cognitively in anger to reduce people's personality to a single negative trait.

这和基本归因错误类似吗？

Is that similar to the fundamental attribution error?

是的，我想在某些方面可能有关联。

Yeah, I guess it's Maybe it's related in some ways.

它是

It's

事实是更好。

a fact it's better.

对，对。

Yeah, yeah.

我

I

从某种意义上说，这与归因风格有关。

guess it's related to attributional style in a sense.

这也与哲学家们对此的论述有关。

It's also related to philosophers have written about it.

许多不同的作者从不同角度探讨过这个问题。

Many different authors have approached it from different perspectives.

因此，你也可以将它描述为对他人的一种物化形式。

So you could describe it as a form of objectification of the other person as well.

我们不再将他们视为有生命、有呼吸的人。

We don't really perceive them anymore as a living, breathing human being.

如果一个人只是个混蛋，对吧？

If somebody is just an asshole, right?

只是个傻瓜或只是个讨厌鬼，在我们眼中，他们就不再是完整的人了。

Just an idiot or just a jerk, they're not really a fully formed human being in our eyes anymore.

这扭曲了我们关系的本质，有些人，尤其是愤怒的人，会认为这样也没关系。

So the kind of distorts the nature of our relationship and you might, some people, especially angry people will tend to think that that's fine.

他完全是个混蛋，对吧？

He has a total jerk, right?

我认为，回应这一点的最佳方式是，这正是人们生气时解决问题能力会下降的原因之一。

And I think the best way to respond to that it's one of the reasons that when people get angry, their problem solving ability tends to be impaired.

所以，如果你无法共情他人或设身处地为他们着想，就很难预测他们的行为或理解他们的动机。

So if you can't empathize with people or put yourself in their shoes, you can't really anticipate their actions or understand their motivations.

因此，这使得你很难有效地与他们相处、与他们谈判或解决问题。

So it makes it pretty hard to actually deal with them effectively or negotiate with them or problem solve.

你最终只能依赖一些非常粗暴和简单的解决方式，比如一拳打在对方脸上之类的。

You're going to basically be stuck with pretty crude and simplistic solutions like punching the guy in the face or something like that.

所以，这种对个体进行简化看待的方式，你也可以认为它会影响整个社会，你知道吗？

So that reductionist way of looking at people individually, also you could argue it affects society as a whole, you know?

有时候，我们可能会以一种简化的方式看待其他国家和群体。

We maybe think of whole other nations and groups of people in a reductionist way sometimes.

因此，社会心理学家和其他研究者将这种物化倾向视为一个更严重问题的基础，这个问题是所谓的去人性化。

So social psychologists and other researchers have talked about this kind of objectifying tendency as being the basis of a more serious problem, which is called dehumanisation.

纵观历史，人们一直有着道德准则。

Throughout history, you know, people have had moral codes.

大多数社会都认为偷窃或杀人是错误的，但有一个例外：如果对方不被视为完整的人类，那就没问题。

Most societies agree that it's wrong to steal from people or to kill them, with one exception, which is if they don't count as fully fleshed human beings, then it's fine.

是的。

Yep.

对吧？

Right?

在古代，那些人被称为野蛮人。

In the ancient world, those were barbarians.

所以希腊语中的‘barbaroi’，你知道它最初是什么意思吗？

So the Greek word, barbaraoi, do you know what it means originally?

啮齿动物、非人类、害虫？

Rodent, non human, vermin?

不是。

No.

这比象声词要好一点，克里斯。

It's better than it's onomatopoeic, Chris.

对吧？

Right?

意思是人们发出‘巴拉巴拉’的声音。

It means people that go bar, bar, bar.

羊？

Sheep?

不是。

No.

它字面意思就是指说话胡言乱语的人。

It just means it just literally means people that talk nonsense.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

意思是那些听起来像在‘巴拉’的人。

It means people that sound like they're going blah

巴拉巴拉。

blah blah.

嘿。

Hey.

呃，原谅我，我之前以为说废话的人是羊，因为动物也会这样，是的。

Like like, forgive me forgive me for thinking that people who go blah blah blah are sheep because animals yeah.

会说谢谢。

Will go Thank you.

动物也会说吧吧吧，羊。

Animals will go bar bar bar sheep.

对。

Correct.

但古希腊人认为，野蛮人说话就是这样的。

But the Greeks thought that's what barbarians sounded like.

因为，他们的意思是，那些不说希腊语的人。

Like, they because they don't it means people that don't speak Greek.

那我们是不是也在纳粹身上看到了这种现象？

And so do we not see this with the Nazis?

他们用这种言论来形容犹太人，说他们是啮齿动物，是的。

They used this sort of discussed language towards Jews, they were rodents, Yeah.

是。

Were

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们不算数。

So they don't count.

道德考量不适用于他们，因为我们已经将他们非人化了。

Moral consideration doesn't extend to them because we've dehumanized them.

他们低于人类。

They're less than human.

这意味着一切都可以发生。

And that means anything goes.

我们可能拥有非常复杂的道德体系，可以坐下来争论到天荒地老，但这些道德并不适用于他们，因为他们不是人。

Morality, we might have a very sophisticated morality that we can sit and debate till the cows come home, but it doesn't apply to those guys because they are not humans.

此外，历史上奴隶通常被当作低于人类的存在，因此规则对他们并不适用。

Also, slaves generally throughout history were treated as less than humans, so rules didn't really apply to them.

在某些情况下，也许儿童或某些社会中的女性也没有得到同等的道德关怀，但有时罪犯也不被算在内，他们没有权利，或者根本不算真正的人，你知道的。

And in some cases, maybe children or women in some societies on extended moral consideration in the same way, but there's sometimes criminals, they don't count, they don't have any rights or whatever, they're not really human or, you know.

因此，你可以追溯到愤怒的某些特征。

So you could trace that back arguably to certain features of anger.

你可能会说，我们可以教人应对愤怒的技巧，但这样真的能解决那种将个人的某些特质视为定义其全部人格的负面倾向吗？

So you could say, well, we can teach coping skills to manage anger, but are we then really addressing the tendency to treat individual traits that people have as defining their entire character negatively.

这是一种非常简化的方式来看待他人。

It's a very reductionist way of viewing other people.

这种思维方式往往会引发许多问题。

It tends to lead to a lot of problems.

如果你认为在与他人相处时这是个问题，我们对自己也常常感到愤怒。

If you think that's a problem dealing with other people, we get angry with ourselves a lot as well.

你可以对别人生气，也可以对无生命的东西生气，比如电脑出故障时，还会对自己生气。

You can get angry with other people, but you can get angry with inanimate objects, like your laptop not working and get angry with yourself as well.

人们很喜欢对自己生气。

People love getting angry with themselves.

他们做着同样的事情。

And they do the same thing.

所以他们有这样的想法。

So they've got such an idea.

我完全没用。

I'm completely useless.

他们会自我惩罚、自我谴责，使用心理学家有时称之为全局性负面价值评价或全局性负面标签的东西。

And they'll self flagulate, self castigate using these, what psychologists sometimes call global negative ratings of value or global negative labels.

我就是没用。

I'm just useless.

我是个傻瓜。

I'm an idiot.

我一无是处。

I'm crap.

我无能。

I'm incompetent.

我喜欢把这称为世界上最糟糕的自我提升方法。

I like to refer to that as the world's worst self improvement technique.

这非常流行。

It's incredibly popular.

如果教室里坐满了一群小孩子，他们正在为数学考试做准备，结果所有孩子都答错了一道题，你第二天不会说：孩子们，我看了你们的考试答案。

Everybody does it to some extent, but if you had the classroom full of little kids and I don't know, they were studying for a math exam and all the kids kind of got one of the questions wrong, you wouldn't go back the next day and say, listen, kids, I had a look at your answers to that exam.

基本上，问题在于你们都是一群彻头彻尾的傻瓜。

And basically the problem is that you're all just a bunch of complete idiots essentially.

你们出错就错在这里。

That's where you went wrong here.

为什么？

Why?

所以去好好想想吧。

So go away and have a think about that.

你可能会这么做，但你肯定不是一个好老师。

You might, but you probably wouldn't be a very good teacher.

建设性的反馈通常会鼓励人们付出的努力。

Constructive feedback tends to encourage people for having made an effort.

它会强化他们做对的部分。

It tends to reinforce the bits that they did right.

然后它会非常具体地指出你哪里做错了，并引导你找到更好的解决方案。

And then it tends to be pretty specific about what you did wrong and nudge you in the direction of finding a better solution.

这并不是什么高深的科学，对吧？

It's not rocket science, right?

但说你们都是一群白痴。

But saying you're all just a bunch of idiots.

这就像试图踩着玻璃往上爬一样。

It's kind of like trying to climb on glass then.

你还能说什么？我到底该怎么做？

You can't go, what am I supposed to do?

所以解决这个问题的办法就是做个性格移植之类的。

So the solution to that would be get a personality transplant or something like that.

那我该怎么办呢？

What am I supposed to do about that?

这让人瘫痪了。

It's paralyzing.

如果你反过来批评，通常会严重打击人的积极性。

If you turn, it's highly demotivating, generally speaking.

所以我们一般不会这么做。

So we don't usually do that.

这根本不是一种方法。

It's not a technique.

我对我的客户说，这并不是一种已知的自我提升技巧。

I say to my clients, this isn't a known self improvement technique.

市面上没有关于自我鞭笞式自助法的书籍可买。

There aren't books that you can buy on the self flagellation method of self help.

这并不是我在辅导中会做的事情，除非你希望我开始，我想我们可以试一试。

It's not something that I do in coaching unless you would like me to start, I guess we could give it a go.

你觉得这会有什么效果？

How do you think it would work out?

但当人们对自己生气时，往往会这样对待自己。

But it's something that people do to themselves when they're angry with themselves.

而且这种方式往往会以多种方式适得其反，本质上它和我们在愤怒中将他人物化、去人性化时犯的是同样的错误。

And it tends to backfire in a number of different ways, but it's essentially making the same error as when we objectify, dehumanize other people in anger.

所以，应对技巧未必能解决这个问题。

And so again, the coping skills wouldn't necessarily fix that.

它们或许能让你暂时清醒，但如果你能在认知层面解决这个问题，确保自己不再有这种思维误区，那会更有用。

They might snap you out of it, but it would be potentially more useful if you addressed that at a cognitive level to make sure you cannot mop up any tendency towards that thinking error.

本集由Whoop赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Whoop.

我已经佩戴Whoop五年多了，早在它成为节目赞助商之前。

I have been wearing Whoop for over five years now, way before they were a partner on the show.

根据应用记录，我已经用它追踪了我生活中的1600多天，这简直不可思议。

I've actually tracked over sixteen hundred days of my life with it according to the app, which is insane.

它是唯一一款我坚持使用的可穿戴设备，因为它追踪了所有重要的数据：睡眠、锻炼、恢复、呼吸、心率，甚至步数。

And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters, sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps.

而全新的5.0版本是迄今为止最好的版本。

And the new five point o is the best version.

它保留了让Whoop不可或缺的所有优势，体积缩小了7%，同时电池续航长达14天，并新增了HealthSpan功能，用于追踪你的生活习惯如何影响你的衰老速度。

You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable, 7% smaller, but now it's also got a fourteen day battery life and has HealthSpan to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging.

它还为女性提供了荷尔蒙洞察功能。

It's got hormonal insights for ladies.

我是Whoop的超级粉丝。

I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop.

这就是为什么它是唯一一款我坚持使用的可穿戴设备。

That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with.

最重要的是，你可以免费加入。

And best of all, you can join for free.

无需支付任何费用即可获得全新的Whoop 5.0手环，首月免费，还享有30天无理由退款保障。

Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop five point o strap, plus you get your first month for free, and there's a thirty day money back guarantee.

所以你可以免费拥有它。

So you can buy it for free.

免费试用一下吧。

Try it for free.

如果你使用了29天后还不喜欢，他们会全额退款给你。

If you do not like it after twenty nine days, they just give you your money back.

现在，你可以通过下方描述中的链接或访问join.whoop.com/modernwisdom来获取全新的Whoop 5.0和30天免费试用。

Right now, you can get the brand new WHOOP five point o and that thirty day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.

网址是join.whoop.com/modernwisdom。

That's join.woop.com/modernwisdom.

信念和感受之间有什么区别？

What are the differences between beliefs and feelings?

这两者之间是否存在重要的区别？

Are they are they an an important distinction between those two?

很难定义什么是情感。

It's hard to define what's meant by feelings.

你知道的。

You know?

而且，这些概念至今仍被许多当代心理学家激烈争论。

That's and, also, some of these concepts are really debated to this day by a lot of contemporary psychologists.

部分原因在于，英语中我们对这些词的使用相当模糊。

Also partly because in English we use some of these words quite vaguely.

而且常常混用。

And interchangeably.

我们可以互换使用它们。

And we can use them interchangeably.

一般来说，当我们说情感时，可能指的是身体感觉，或者指的是情绪，例如，特别是当我们谈论情绪时，通常来说，我认为其中很可能包含明显的认知成分。

I would say that generally speaking, we're talking, by feelings we might mean physical sensations, or you might be talking about emotions, for example, particularly if we're talking about emotions, generally speaking, I would say there's probably quite a pronounced cognitive element.

其中会牵涉到许多信念。

There'll be a lot of beliefs tied up in them.

纵观历史，人们一直从认知角度定义情绪。

And throughout history, people have defined emotions cognitively.

斯多葛学派就是这样做的，他们坐下来写下类似词典般的定义。

The Stoics did, they sat down and wrote almost like kind of dictionary definitions.

比如说，愤怒是对复仇的渴望。

Say anger is the desire for revenge.

恐惧是相信某件坏事即将发生，并且你应该逃离它。

PR is the belief that something bad is about to happen and that you should flee from it.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

因此他们

By and so they

嗯，我倾向于说。

Well, I tend to hey.

插一句，我能理解这样做的原因，因为当你思考身体中的感觉时，你会产生某种情绪。

Just to interject, I can see the desire for doing that because when you think about what a feeling is in your body, you have some sort of an emotion.

它是一种全局性的、模糊不清、难以捉摸、转瞬即逝、不断变化和转化的东西。

It is this global, foggy, slippery, ephemeral, fucking morphing, and mutating thing.

是的。

And Yeah.

你知道，我在现场表演中用过这个桥段——其实现在不用了，但以前用过——当时我讲到为什么你能理解古人会认为凡人是众神的玩物。

You know, I I use this bit in my live show where actually, I don't anymore, but I used to, where I was talking about why you could understand why the ancients would think that mortals were the gods' playthings.

因为愤怒的感觉并不仅仅像是我大脑和身体内部的某种神经化学失衡。

Because rage doesn't just feel like some neurochemical imbalance inside of my brain and body.

感觉就像我被附身了，被这种，你知道的，奇怪的、像寄生虫恶魔一样的东西占据了，或者，哦，那种深深的抑郁，你知道的，它有一种重量感。

It feels like I've been possessed, imbued with this, you know, strange, like, parasite demon thing that's taken over me or, oh, the deep depression, you know, it's sort of it's weight.

那种沉重感非常强烈。

The gravity is heavy.

这不仅仅是感觉。

It's more than the sensation.

而且我认为，那种试图将其带入易于沟通、可传递的——哦，当你说那个时，你指的是和我一样的意思吗？

And I think that the desire to try and bring into the easily communicated, transferable oh, when you say that, do you mean the same thing as me?

我和你其实从未真正就‘是的’这个问题展开过辩论。

Me and you have never had to have a debate really over Yeah.

是否那个足球是个球。

Whether that football is a ball.

你知道，当你说到球的时候，我所说的球就是那个意思。

Well, you know, when you say ball, that's what I mean when you say ball.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

因为你可以触摸它、感受它、评估它。

Because you can touch it, feel it, assess it.

但因为它如此内在，又难以向他人客观呈现，你需要一种方式来交换和传达这种感受。

But because it's so internal and so challenging to show objectively to other people, you need a way of being able to exchange and and communicate this.

对。

Yeah.

可以说，我们正是通过社会共同认可的某种定义来学会如何使用这些词语的。

And arguably, that's how we figure out how to use the words is by having some kinda definition that our society agrees on.

你听起来像个高效的神经科学家。

You sound like an effective neuroscientist.

有时他们会说，情绪是由一些原始的成分构建而成的。

Sometimes they'll say, the kind of raw effect that emotions are built out of.

一些心理学家会说，这就像颜色词，比如红色和蓝色，对吧？

Some psychologists will say, It's like color words, like red and blue, right?

我怎么知道我所说的红色和你所说的红色是一样的呢？

How do I know that what I mean by red is the same as what you mean by red?

也许我所说的悲伤和你所说的悲伤并不相同，只是我们能将其与某些典型的行为模式和人们的言论联系起来，即便如此，也可能存在一些例外。

Maybe what I mean by sadness is different from what you mean by sadness, except that we can associate it with certain kind of stereotypical patterns of behavior and things that people say, even then there might be some exceptions.

所以，有人可能非常悲伤，却假装微笑。

So somebody might be really sad and fake a smile.

对吧？

Right?

所以这可能会有点复杂，但我们确实有这些大致的模板，用它们来理解和运用这些概念。

So it can be like tricky, but we do have these kinds of rough templates that we apply in order to apply and to also know how to use the concept.

但直到今天，心理学家们仍然对此争论不休。

But to this day, psychologists still argue about this quite a lot.

我想提醒你一个我认为很重要的区别，我想要强调一下。

I want to make it, you reminded me of a distinction that I think is important though, that I wanted to emphasize.

有件事，我会经常提到斯多葛学派，因为我觉得他们很多观点都是对的。

It's something, I'll talk a lot about the stoics, because I think the stoics got a lot of things, right?

你知道第一本关于心理治疗的书是什么吗？

Did you know What do you think is the first ever book on psychotherapy?

关于心理治疗？

On psychotherapy?

你肯定会告诉我，是爱比克泰德之类的吧。

You're gonna tell me it's fucking Epictetus or someone else.

是的，就是爱比克泰德。

Yeah, it's fucking Epictetus.

你试过了

You tried

它的起源甚至比那还要早。

It to catch goes back even further than that.

这很酷。

This is cool.

但这有点极客风，又很酷，对吧？

But this is kind of nerdy and cool, right?

有一本失传的书，作者是斯多葛学派第三任领袖克里斯·伊帕斯，名叫《失落的治疗术》。

There's a lost book by Chris Ipas, the third head of the Stoic school called The Lost Therapeutic Con, right?

就像《死灵之书》之类的。

Like the Necronomicon or something.

从某种意义上说，它可能是第一本关于心理治疗的书。

And it was probably in a sense, the first ever book on psych otherapy.

所以，爱比克泰德、塞涅卡这些人很可能读过它。

So Epictetus and Seneca and those guys had probably read it.