#1056 - 保罗·伊斯特威克博士 - 进化心理学在约会问题上全错了吗？

是的。

Yes.

如果我晚上11点不再吃达美乐披萨，那会很有帮助。

It would help if I stopped eating Domino's at 11PM.

但我也需要记住，要实际地与人面对面相处，也许尝试一些新的爱好，认识一些新朋友，如果我现在的社交网络不太行的话。

But I also need to remember to actually hang out with people in person and maybe try out some new hobbies and meet some new people if my current social networks aren't really doing it for me.

所以我只是想减少对自我提升类事情的强调，因为我怀疑，尽管这对一些人帮助很大，但对另一些人可能帮助有限，而且当这些方法不再改变人们的命运时，他们会感到沮丧。

So I just wanna turn down the emphasis on the self improvement stuff because my suspicion is that though it helps some people a lot, either it only helps somewhat for other people, and when those solutions stop changing people's fortunes, they get frustrated.

所以我真的只是想提醒大家，还有另一条路可走。

So I really just wanna remind people that there's another avenue out here.

假设你是...我猜，你是建议通过主动退出竞争来取胜吗？

Let's say that you're I guess, are you suggesting that you compete by taking yourself out?

因为你仍然是唯一的那个人——假设我们处于一夫一妻制社会，一个人只能与一个人在一起。

Because you are still the only one person presuming that we're in a monogamous society, only one person can be with one person.

如果是这样的话，通过退出某种择偶策略（比如线上交友），转而利用朋友推荐网络、去教堂或培养爱好并在那里认识人，即使你从一个圈子换到另一个圈子，仍然存在一定程度的竞争。

And if that's the case, by taking yourself out of one mating strategy, let's say it's online, and instead using friend referral networks or going to church or starting a hobby and meeting people there, there is still a degree of competition even if you're competing from one bucket to another bucket.

对吧？

Right?

你把自己从红海中抽身，投入了蓝海。

You have taken yourself out of a red ocean and put yourself into a blue one.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，这个比喻很贴切，但我觉得没错。

I mean, that's an apt metaphor there, but I think that's right.

但要记住，提升自身特质确实有一定价值。

But keeping in mind that, look, improving your attributes is going to have some value.

不过要记得，在人们逐渐了解你的情境下，这种提升的实际价值反而会降低。

But remember, it's going to have actually less value in a context where people are getting to know you over time.

我的意思是，这又回到了我们之前讨论过的关于伴侣价值共识的一些内容。

I mean, this is going back to some of the mate value consensus stuff we were talking about earlier.

这一切有个有趣的隐含意义：如果你特别出众，好吧，如果所有人都能一眼看到你的优秀品质，那么你实际上最适合从一个酒吧跳到另一个酒吧，或者从一个派对到另一个派对，因为随着人们逐渐了解你，唯一会发生的事就是有一部分人会觉得你不再那么有吸引力。

There's a funny implication of all of this, which is that if you're exceptionally hot, okay, if everybody can see your good qualities right there on the surface, you're actually best served by hopping from bar to bar or party to party because the only thing that's gonna happen as people get to know you is that some subset of folks are gonna think you're less appealing.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，如果我们以教会为例，是的，稍微提升你的特质可能会有所帮助，但记住，当你去了一个月、三个月、六个月或一年之后，这一点就开始变得不那么重要了。

So if we're talking about church, for example, yes, it can help to improve your attributes a little bit, But remember, that's gonna start to matter less after you've been going for a month or three months or six months or a year.

我不知道是否值得你重新阐述一下你的立场，因为我一直在想的是，你的漏斗前端更宽了。

I I don't know whether I it might be worth you restating sort of your your position against the thing that keeps coming to mind for me, which is the front end of your funnel is wider.

你在客观共识驱动、显而易见的表面吸引力方面走得越远。

The further up the objective consensus driven obvious front window attractiveness you go.

如果你是10分，会有更多人有机会与你接触，这意味着随着时间的推移，你希望自己美好的个性能够蓬勃发展、绽放，最终可能变成12分之类的。

If you are 10, there are more people that you're going to have the opportunity to, and that means over time that you are going to be able to have your hopefully wonderful personality flourish and and blossom and and and go through and that you turn into a 12 or something like that.

但如果你周围的七分人群无法选择不与五分人群交往，那就不是这样了。

But not if the other sevens in your midst don't get to opt out of hanging out with the fives.

如果他们无法选择不与五分人群交往，其中一些五分人群在七分人群眼中的吸引力会增加，而你的吸引力可能会下降。

If they don't get to opt out of hanging out with the fives, some of those fives are gonna increase in their appeal to the sevens, and your appeal might go down.

所以你的想法在某种环境下是完全正确的，想象一下按顺序约会，当对方显得足够没有吸引力时你就退出。

So you are thinking about it exactly correctly in an environment where it where you know, imagine dating somebody sequentially and you drop off after they seem sufficiently unappealing.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, exactly.

但如果我们被迫——姑且这么说——与人互动，这在很多情境中都会发生，那么机会确实会有所增加，但并不会那么显著。

But if we're forced, for lack of a better word, to interact with people, which happens in a lot of contexts, then again, there's gonna be some amount of increase in opportunity, but it's not so dramatic.

嗯，在祖先时代确实如此。

Well, it certainly did ancestrally.

对吧？

Right?

你被迫如此，因为你能去哪里呢？

You were forced because where are you gonna go?

你住在这个山谷里，周围就是这群人。

You live in this valley, and this is a group of people that are around you.

是的。

Yeah.

尝试从进化角度来理解你提出的观点，我们的联结和依恋系统会以市场特定的方式运作，即某些人有特定偏好而其他人有不同偏好，这样就能在混合群体中实现最大程度的配对，这样理解合理吗？

And trying to take an evolutionary perspective to what you're suggesting here, it would make sense that our bonding and attachment systems would be market specific in that way that certain people would have certain preferences and other people would have other preferences because that allows as much mating to occur as possible in a mixed group.

这样看待它合理吗？

Is that a fair way to look at it?

完全正确。

Exactly.

这太完美了。

That is perfect.

就好像我们过度关注于，哦，交配成功就是和最有魅力的人在一起。

It's like we over indexed on, Oh, mating success was getting with the most desirable people.

相反，我们可以认为交配成功是关于建立一个相互依赖的关系，这种关系能有效养育这些成本极高的后代。

Instead, we could think about mating success was about forming an interdependent relationship that was effective at raising these extremely costly offspring.

所以这其实并不是要找到拥有最佳特质的人。

So it's not really about getting somebody with the best traits.

关键在于建立最佳的关系，让我们能够长期合作完成这项几乎不可能的任务——抚养孩子。

It's about forming the best relationship that allows us to work together over time doing this, like, impossibly difficult task of raising Hill Drive.

那我们来看看其他方面，不仅仅是吸引力，可能更符合进化角度的特质。

Let's look at something else then that isn't just attractiveness, that might be a little bit more kind of evolutionarily apt.

比如男性的资源、资源供给能力，一个男人能否为你和你们未来可能的孩子提供支持，无论他性格好坏，这都是一种长期回报，对你和孩子都有利。

Something like something like resources in men, resource provisioning, the ability for a man to be able to provide for you and your potential future offspring, that would be, regardless of how nice or not nice he is, that would be a long term payoff that would benefit both you and your kids.

不对吗？

No?

是的。

Yes.

复杂之处在于，在许多狩猎采集群体中，这些男性能够提供的战利品是广泛共享的。

It's complicated by the fact that in a lot of hunter gatherer groups, the spoils that these men would be able to provide are shared widely.

所以在某种程度上，所有这些事情都变得非常模糊，因为实际上你得到的——比如和一个优秀猎人结合——是来自社区的某种声望。

So in some ways, like, again, all of these things get very mushy because what you're actually getting, if you get with, like, a great hunter, for example, is you're getting some prestige from the community.

你还能得到一点保障，即如果发生什么事，社区里的其他人会照顾你。

You're also getting a a little bit of assurance that if something happens, the rest of the community is gonna be looking out for you.

对的。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

就是这类事情。

Stuff like that.

但还有其他形式的资源提供也很重要。

But there can be other forms of provisioning that matter too.

所以这个男人，假设他不是世界上最好的猎人，但你知道他擅长什么吗？

So this guy, let's say, he's not the best hunter in the world, but you know what he does?

他知道蜂蜜在哪里。

He knows where the honey's at.

明白吗？

Okay?

我说的是真正的蜂蜜。

I'm talking about like literal honey.

他去找蜂蜜，然后把蜂蜜带回来给你。

And he goes and finds the honey and brings that back for you.

蜂蜜是

Honey is

这里在谈论另一种能力或资源提供方式。

something talking about another another sort of competence or resource provisioning thing here.

对吧？

Right?

你选的是另一个类别，但本质上还是关于伴侣的总体能力。

You're picking a different bucket, but it's still the same overall level of competence in a partner.

我认为，如果我们把能力作为这个的典型例子，你可以用任何你想要的代理指标来衡量，比如能动性、尽责性、勤奋，或者智商。

And I think if we were to look at something like competence as a good example of this, you could use whatever proxy you want for this agency, conscientiousness, industriousness, maybe IQ.

比如，如果一个人，我们再强调一次，是资源提供者，在祖先环境中。

Like, if someone, a male, let's just say that again, resource provisioning, ancestral environment.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

女性现在可以自己赚钱了。

Women can earn for themselves now.

如果我们有这种情况，如果你有一个男人能够成为八分（满分十分）的资源提供者、获取者，拥有地位和群体声望，受人喜爱且亲社会；而另一个人没有这些特质但其他方面相当，比如虽然可能与兼容性无关的幽默感、承诺等其他所有方面都差不多，但前者就是能带来更多价值。

If we have that, if you have a guy who is able to be an eight out of 10 provider, provisioner, resource acqui acquirer with the status and and the renowned of the group and people like him and he's pro social, and then you have somebody else who does not have those traits but is equal, like, that is just a raw even though that might not be to do with compatibility, their humor, their commitment, all the rest of this stuff, one just brings more to the table.

这是否表明在配偶价值方面存在一种客观市场，因为实用性？

Does that not suggest that there is a kind of objective market when it comes to mate value because of usefulness?

你如何能够交易这种效用？

How you can the the utility of trading this in?

我认为有一些，但我想再次强调，这忽略了这样一个事实：这些男性过去需要提供的很多东西是围绕保护我的后代等方面。

I I think there's some, but I think, again, what that sidelines is the fact that a lot of what these guys would would have been needed for is are are things surrounding, like, protection of, like, my offspring.

比如，为什么在几百万年前，女性似乎开始希望男性在身边。

Like, why was it in the first place that a couple of million years ago, women seemed to start wanting men to be around.

我的意思是，她们开始选择那些对孩子不那么有攻击性的男性，对吧，那些她们能放心让孩子接触的男人。

I mean, they started selecting for the men that were less aggressive around kids, right, that they could trust around their own kids.

这就是为什么我们开始变得——我们不再有锋利的犬齿了。

And this is why we start to like, we don't have the sharp canines anymore.

我们人类男性相比我们最亲近的猿类亲戚来说，是相当温顺的。

We're we men human men are pretty docile compared to, you know, what you see in our closest ape relatives.

那是因为我们也被选择成为好的照顾者。

And that's because we were being selected to be good caregivers as well.

我的意思是，今天想想这个确实挺奇怪的。

I mean, it's weird to think about today.

我们现在不觉得这特别有男子气概，但这实际上是女性选择我们存在的主要原因之一——能够陪伴年幼的孩子，教导他们，向他们展示狩猎、觅食等各种技能。

We don't think about that as being a particularly manly activity, but it is in fact one of the primary things that we were selected to do by the women, to be able to be around young children, to teach them things, to show them the skills of hunting, provisioning, and everything else.

而这很大程度上取决于那段关系的兼容性。

And a lot of that was gonna depend on the compatibility of that relationship.

所以我们只能想象这些事情是并行存在的。

So we just have to imagine these things existing in tandem.

是的，在祖先环境中，有些男性是更好的供养者，也更受群体尊重，至少在某个特定时刻是这样，但这些因素往往是流动的、变化的。

Yes, there are going to be some men in ancestral context who were better providers and were more well respected by the group, At least at a given moment in time, a lot of those things were fluid and shifted and changed as well.

但确实，那里会存在某种等级结构，不过这种结构也伴随着一种归属感、对群体的贡献，以及一种兼容的关系——两个人能够以相互依赖的方式良好协作，不仅这对伴侣相对于整个群体如此，他们在抚养后代等方面也是如此。

But yes, there's going be some amount of hierarchy there, but that is complemented by both sort of having a sense of belonging to a group, contributing to a group, and having a compatible relationship where two people can function well in interdependent way, you know, not only that dyad relative to the rest of the group, but that dyad and how they raise offspring, etcetera.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的观点是，将择偶视为一种市场之外的另一种选择，是兼容性与依恋联结。

So your perspective that's an alternative to seeing mating as a marketplace is compatibility drone bonding.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

人类伴侣之间形成的依恋纽带，并不是某种奇怪的新现象。

The attachment bonds that human mating partners form, this is not some weird new phenomenon.

这也是理解人类进化的绝对关键所在。

That this is also absolutely key to understanding human evolution.

事实上，如果我们想关注人类进化的具体方式，这正是我会指出的方向。

And in fact, if we want to focus on the particulars of the way humans evolved, that's where I would point.

正如我之前提到的，人类男性体型变得更小、更温和，我们失去了尖锐的犬齿，两性异形减少，因为我们被选择要变得温和友善，尤其是在养育后代方面。

Again, as I mentioned earlier, this idea that human males got smaller, gentler, we lost the sharp canines, dimorphism decreased because we were being selected to be gentle and kind, especially around offspring.

对。

Right.

因为男性的亲代投资增加了。

Because male parental investment went up.

MPI（男性亲代投资）上升是因为孩子更加幼态持续且发育迟缓。

MPI MPI went up because kids were more neotenous and blobby.

确实如此。

Exactly.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，这方面还有其他角度。

Why you know, there are other sides of this too.

你会得到更多的异亲抚养。

You would get more alloparenting.

我猜想你会看到——我不确定是否如此，但我推测在其他近亲灵长类动物中，那些更成熟、能力更强、不那么无用的幼崽，你会看到更少的异亲抚养和更少的雄性亲代投资，因为育儿需求不需要祖母和表亲来帮忙照顾婴儿，而这在人类女性中并非如此。

I would imagine that you would see I I I don't know if this is the case, but I'm gonna guess that in other close primates that have, more competent, capable infants that are less useless, you would see less alloparenting and less male parental investment because the demand for child rearing doesn't require a supply of grandmother and local cousin to help the baby, which isn't the case when it comes to human females.

好的。

Okay.

关于性别差异的观点有什么问题？

What is wrong what is wrong with the gender differences point?

好的。

Okay.

这很有趣。

This is fun.

在我们继续之前，我是大力支持减少酒精摄入的，但历史上无酒精啤酒尝起来味道很差。

Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, nonalcoholic brews taste like ass.

你不需要进行什么大的调整。

You don't need to be doing some big reset.

也许你只是想喝杯冰啤酒，又不想第二天早上感觉糟糕，这就是为什么我如此推崇Athletic Brewing Co.。

Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.

他们有50种无酒精啤酒，包括IPA、黄金艾尔，甚至还有限量版，比如受鸡尾酒启发的帕洛玛和莫斯科骡子风味。

They've got 50 types of NAs, including IPAs, Goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule.

关键是。

And here's the thing.

你可以随时饮用它们。

You can drink them anytime.

深夜、清晨、看比赛、做运动，都没问题。

Late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter.

没有宿醉。

No hangover.

无需妥协。

No compromise.

这就是为什么我与他们合作。

And that is why I partnered with them.

你可以在附近的杂货店或酒类商店找到Athletic Brewing Co最畅销的产品系列，或者最好的选择是直接订购包含四种口味的完整混合装送到你家。

You can find Athletic Brewing Co's best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door.

现在，通过访问下方描述中的链接或前往athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom，你可以在首次在线订单中享受15%的折扣。

Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.

网址是athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom。

That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.

性别差异是令人兴奋的。

Gender differences are exciting.

而且你看，进化心理学正是为了解释许多这类性别差异而诞生的。

And look, evolutionary psychology was born in explaining a lot of these gender differences.

我明白。

I get it.

我理解它们的重要性。

I get I get their importance.

但我想再次强调，我们可能高估了其中一些差异。

But once again, I think we have overestimated some of them.

我们先来谈谈择偶偏好。

Let's talk about the mate preferences first.

而且，你知道，我知道你熟悉陈述偏好和显示偏好的概念。

And, you know, I know you're familiar with the concepts of stated and revealed preferences.

对吧？

Right?

人们在择偶时声称的偏好与他们实际表现出的偏好之间存在差异。

There's a distinction between what people say they want in a partner and what they actually want a partner.

这些偏好是通过与真实人群互动时所揭示出来的。

Their preferences as they are revealed through interactions with real people.

这是我们二十年前最早研究的内容之一。

This was one of the first things we studied twenty years ago.

我们知道样本中的男性会声称自己比女性更看重外貌吸引力，而样本中的女性则会声称自己比男性更看重事业雄心。

We knew that the men in our sample would say they cared about attractiveness more than women, and we knew that the women in our sample would say they cared about ambition more than men.

但当我们让他们参加快速约会时，你看到的是，哦，有抱负是一种温和的催情剂。

But when we sent them speed dating, what you saw was like, Oh, ambition is a mild aphrodisiac.

她们比不喜欢有抱负的男性更喜欢有抱负的男性，但男性也比不喜欢有抱负的女性更喜欢有抱负的女性，而且没有性别差异。

They like the ambitious guys more than the non ambitious guys, but the men like the ambitious women a little bit more than the unambitious women, and there was no gender differences.

这是第一个让我们意识到，哇。

And that was the first thing that clued us in that like, woah.

也许当男性说他们想要这些东西时，他们在某种程度上误解了自己的偏好，女性也是如此。

Maybe when men say they want these things, they're misunderstanding their own preferences in some ways, and and same thing for women too.

好的。

Okay.

在性别差异方面，无论是被证实还是被否定，你的实验室发现了哪些进化视角通常不会注意到但人们却认为是吸引力的特质？

What has your lab discovered that people find as attractive that an evolutionary lens doesn't typically notice when it comes to gender differences that are either proven or disproven?

我想说，最突出的可能就是我刚才提到的那个方面。

I would say that probably the thing that has stood out the most is what I just mentioned.

也就是抱负和收入潜力。

So ambition earning potential.

这些因素，你知道的，会稍微激发浪漫的欲望。

These are you know, they inspire romantic desire a little bit.

比如，如果人们认为自己的伴侣有抱负且成功，他们在持续的关系中会稍微更快乐一些。

People are, like, a little bit happier in their ongoing relationships if they think their partner is ambitious and successful, for example.

但在这方面，我们确实看到整体效果上没有性别差异。

But that's really one where we've seen there's no gender difference in that overall effect.

人们对此有点惊讶，比如，那关于女性收入更高时关系更可能破裂的研究发现又该如何解释呢？

People find this a little shocking, like, Well, what about the findings where relationships were more likely to break up when the woman earned more?

很多这类情况经不起各种混杂因素的检验。

A lot of those things haven't held up to various confounds.

所以即使你看宏观趋势，基本上也能发现这一点，那些从性别视角来看不匹配的组合，比如女性收入高于伴侣的情况。

So even if you look in the macro trends, you basically see this as well, that the mismatched pairings, mismatch from a gendered perspective, so women earning more than their partners.

实际上这并没有什么负面影响，至少从我们看到的当代数据来看是这样。

There's really no costs to that, at least, you know, that that we see in the in the contemporary data.

所以我认为所有这些

So I think all of

我的意思是，我相信你也看到过，当男性失业时，离婚的可能性会增加，我认为是百分之三十甚至百分之五十。

this I mean, I've seen as I'm sure you have too, when a man loses his job, the likelihood of divorce goes up by, I think, thirty percent or maybe even fifty percent.

当女性失业时，离婚的可能性完全不会增加。

When a woman loses her job, the likelihood of divorce doesn't go up at all.

我承认离婚数据有点棘手，因为很多时候，是的，它们并不能预测离婚。

I confess I the the divorce data are kinda thorny because a lot of times, yeah, they're not predicting divorce.

它们更像是要求人们回顾离婚经历并询问他们分手的原因。

They're like asking people to reflect back on a divorce and asking them why it ended.

所以我确实熟悉你提到的那些数据。

So I am I'm familiar with with those data that you're talking about.

但总的来说，这些性别差异非常非常小。

But generally speaking, these gender differences are very, very small.

我们也可以讨论当代教育相关的内容，因为这方面也很有趣。

And we can get into, like, the contemporary education stuff too because that's also interesting along these lines.

是的。

Yeah.

请讲。

Hit me.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，所以我们现在看到，女性获得的学位比男性更多。

Well, so now we see, right, that women are earning more degrees than men.

对吧？

K?

我认为有些人真的很担心这是导致单身现象增多的一个因素。

And I think some people are really worried that this is a contributor to the rise in singledom.

我觉得这是个转移注意力的幌子。

I think I think this is a red herring.

根据我所看到的数据，女性比男性受教育程度更高并不会带来负面影响。

From the data that I have seen, there aren't there aren't costs to women being more educated than men.

如今，在教育程度不匹配的伴侣关系中，女性比男性受教育更高的情况更为常见。

That nowadays, when couples who are mismatched in education form, it's more common that the woman has more education than the man.

而且，再次强调，这些关系并没有风险。

And there's, again, there's no risk to these relationships.

这些关系的风险并不比教育背景匹配或男性受教育程度更高的情况更大。

These relationships are not at any greater risk than if they had been matched in education or if the man was more educated.

所以我确实认为单身人数在增加，也确实认为存在挑战，但我认为这与男性的教育水平无关。

So I do think there is a rise in singles, and I do think that there are challenges there, but I don't think it has to do with the men's education level.

我认为这不太可能是解释的原因。

I think that is unlikely to be the explanation.

解释一下

Explain

那么跟我说说吧，好的。

to me then Yeah.

你认为现代女性说男性需要提升自己时，她们指的是什么。

What you think women mean, modern women, when they say men need to up their game.

是的。

Yeah.

我可以用无数种方式来表达这一点。

There's a million ways that I can put it.

是的。

Yeah.

提高他们的标准，自力更生，把自己整顿好。

Improve their standards, pick themselves up by their bootstraps, sort themselves out.

对。

Yeah.

男性需要提升自己的水平，我认为这就像很多年轻女性的观点，比如我看二十多岁女性的经典约会建议，不管女性版的‘男性圈’是什么，就像二十多岁的女性约会评论员所说的，很多建议、很多给出的理由是我们不再忍受那些达不到我们标准的男性了。

Men need to up their game, which I think is what a lot of the young female like, if I look at mid twenties classic dating advice from what whatever the female equivalent of the manosphere is, like dating commentators that are female in their twenties, much of the advice, much of much of the justification given is we're not putting up with men who don't meet our standards anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

你认为她们这么说是什么意思？

What do you think they mean by that?

我认为她们的意思是她们在网上看到的情况令人失望。

I think what they mean is that what they're seeing online is disappointing.

在线约会吗？

On online dating?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为他们可能实际上并没有遇到多少这样的男生，这可能是男生的问题。

I think that they're probably not actually meeting many of these guys, and that could be on the guys.

这可能是因为一些男性已经退出了传统的社交方式。

That could be because some men have retreated from traditional modes of social interaction.

你知道他们比女性更这么做了吗？

Do you know if they've done that more than women?

这个我不清楚。

That I don't know.

这是有可能的。

It's plausible.

我的意思是，这种情况在各个年龄段都在发生。

I mean, you know, it's happening at all ages.

这个我可以告诉你。

That I can tell you.

我的意思是，我们常常急于把这归咎于Z世代。

I mean, we're often very eager to blame this on like Gen Z.

想责怪现在的孩子们

Wanna blame the kids these

我知道美国时间使用调查最近发现，女性宠物主人平均花在宠物上的时间比与所有人相处的时间总和还要多。

days I are know that the American Time Use survey recently found out that the average female pet owner spends more time with her pet than all humans combined.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

天哪。

That's good lord.

但你看，我确实觉得花时间在手机、屏幕上——我的意思是，任何不是在现实世界中与真人互动的事情。

But look, I do think spending time that you know, phones, screens, I mean, whatever it is that's not out there interacting with real people in the world.

虽然我没看过数据，但我完全相信这种情况在男性身上比女性更普遍。

If So I haven't seen the data, but I would certainly buy the idea that that's happened to men more than women.

我认为这很可能就是问题所在。

That I would suggest very well could be the problem.

所以如果我们作为一个社会进行大规模干预来解决孤独问题，让男性离开沙发，重新走进世界去结识这些女性，我认为情况会好很多。

So if we engaged as a society in a large loneliness intervention that got men off the couch and out into the world again meeting these women, I think things are going go a lot better.

我不是说女性不会时不时对这些男性感到失望。

I'm not saying that women aren't going to be disappointed in these guys from time to time.

我希望如果他们教育程度不高，那他们至少在其他方面培养出了一些优点。

I hope that if they're not as educated that they've developed some other attributes instead.

我希望他们在厨房里很厉害，但我认为真正的问题是人们没有相遇。

I hope they're dynamite in the kitchen, but but I think the real problem is people not meeting.

我的意思是，我几乎总是会回到那个观点。

I mean, I almost always go back to that.

你认为一个只有高中学历的男人想和一个有硕士学位的女人约会，如果他擅长做意大利通心粉，就能弥补这个差距吗？

You think that you think that a guy who has a high school diploma trying to date a woman who has a master's, if he can make a good rigatoni, that would offset his the delta?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，也许，比如，修好水槽。

I mean, maybe, like, fix the sink.

你知道，有很多实用的技能可以让一个人变得有吸引力。

Like, you know, there's there's lots of useful things that people can do to make themselves appealing.

教育只是众多因素之一，但问题是如果你在网上约会并滑动筛选，它完全被用作一个筛选标准。

Education is just one among many, but the problem is that if you're dating online and you're swiping, it's all being used as a screening criterion.

所以你甚至都到不了第一次约会，更不用说与人互动了。

So you're not even getting to the first date, much less interacting with somebody.

但这难道不是在迎合择偶市场的合理性吗？

Does this not play into the mating market justification though?

不，不，我知道确实如此。

No, no, I know it does.

不，但这就是问题所在。

No, but this is the problem.

在线约会让情况变得更糟。

Online dating makes it all worse.

网上约会意味着，哦，不仅十分的人会比七分的人表现好得多，七分的人又比四分的人好得多，而且如果你不符合所有条件，我一开始甚至都不需要费心和你互动。

Online dating means like, oh, not only are the tens gonna do way better than the sevens who are gonna do way better than the fours, but I don't even need to bother interacting with you in the first place if you don't check all the boxes.

对我来说，这很扫兴，因为根据我一次又一次的了解和观察，那些你认为非常重要的条件——再说一次，性别在这方面并不重要——

And to me, that's a bummer because what I know and what I've seen time and time again is that the boxes that you think are so important and again, gender doesn't matter on this.

男人也会这样。

Men do this too.

我可以告诉你，一旦面对面相见，无论结果好坏，那些你认为非常重要的条件就立刻被抛到九霄云外了。

The boxes that you think are so important, I can tell you, they go right out the window once you meet face to face for good or for ill.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我我是说，这是我们几年前第一次对话的内容。

I I mean, this was our first conversation from a couple of years ago.

大家应该回去看看那期节目。

People should go back and watch that.

我认为你做的关于陈述偏好和揭示偏好的研究，以及它们如何渗透影响的过程非常引人入胜。

I think the the research that you did looking at stated and revealed preferences and and how that sort of percolates was really fascinating.

给我一个宏观的概述吧。

Do me a 30,000 foot view.

男性和女性认为他们会在异性身上找到哪些吸引点？

What is it that men and women think that they're going to find appealing in the opposite sex?

而实际上真正重要的是什么？

And what is it that actually matters?

我觉得我觉得你看

I think I think look.

总的来说，他们确实把握住了其中一些要点

In broad strokes, they do get some of these things right.

我的意思是，他们以为自己想要的是聪明的人、有幽默感的人、以及会对他们忠诚的人

I mean, they think they want somebody that that they find intelligent and somebody that they think has got a good sense of humor and and somebody who's gonna be loyal to them.

确实，这些品质确实很重要

And indeed, like, these are qualities that matter.

我们确实非常需要感受到伴侣具备这些品质。

It's really important that we feel that our partners have these things.

如果要说有什么不同的话，那就是男女双方都低估了吸引力的重要性。

If anything, both men and women underestimate how much attractiveness is important.

而这里，我真正谈论的是你对某人有吸引力的那种感觉。

And and here, what I'm really talking about is the feeling you have that somebody else is attractive.

我认为有时候女性、甚至男性在某种程度上都会觉得这有点肤浅。

I think sometimes both women and even men to some extent think it's a little shallow.

如果我把吸引力放在我必备特质的首位。

If I put attractiveness at the top of my must have attributes.

但认为你的伴侣很性感确实很重要。

But it is important to think that your partner is sexy.

认为你的伴侣是个好情人尤其重要。

It's especially important to think your partner is a good lover.

我的意思是，我们发现这在预测人们关系幸福度方面实际是最重要的因素。

I mean, we found that that was number one in terms of what actually mattered in terms of predicting how happy people were in their relationships.

如果你让人们用评分来衡量这一点，它的重要性排名就没那么高。

If you ask people to rate that on a scale, it's not quite so high.

所以这些是几个例子，但我认为很大程度上，让人在关系中感到幸福的是，是的，你希望伴侣具备所有这些特质，但我们也别忘了关系中的互动因素。

So those are a few of the examples, but I think in large part, what makes people happy in relationships is, yeah, you want to think your partner has all those things, but let's also don't forget about the dyadic stuff.

就像是，如果我今天过得很糟糕，我是否觉得可以和你聊聊，而你会倾听我这一天出了什么问题？

It's like, if I had a crappy day, do I feel like I can talk to you about it and you're gonna listen to what went wrong with my day?

你会试着让我重新振作起来。

You're gonna try to bolster me back up.

如果我发生了好事，你会比我更兴奋吗？

If something good happened to me, are you more excited about it than I am?

对吧？

Right?

我们这里在讨论什么？

What are we talking about there?

是耐心、对细节的关注吗？

Patience, attentiveness to detail?

这是支持性，但更像是支持性，不过这种支持不是那种‘哦，你是个支持我的朋友’的层面。

It's supportiveness, but gets it's like supportiveness, but supportive in a way that isn't like, oh, you're a supportive friend.

就像，哦，你是那种当出现问题每个人都会去找的人。

Like, oh, you're the kind of person everybody goes to when something's gone wrong.

我希望你作为伴侣能对我的目标和梦想有超乎寻常的默契。

I want you as a partner to be exceptionally attuned to my goals, my dreams.

我的意思是，这某种程度上是我们最近对婚姻所做的改变。

I mean, is kind of what we've done to marriage recently.

我们期望伴侣能做到所有这些事情，但实际上，如果人们感觉伴侣支持他们并支持他们追求自己想要追求的东西，他们在关系中往往会更加幸福。

We expect our partner to do all these things, but indeed people tend to be much happier in their relationships if they feel like their partner has their back and is supporting them as they pursue the things that they wanna pursue.

这可能要求很高，但这些通常往往是人们最看重的事情。

It can be a tall order, but these generally tend to be the things that matter the most for people.

如果你要给人们建议，你会说，这里有几种通常在最初几次约会甚至在网上就能察觉到的特质，你希望建议人们摒弃哪些特质？

What if you were to give people advice and you were to say, here are a couple of traits that you can usually detect within the first few dates or maybe even online, what are the ones that you wish you could advise people to dispense with and put in the bin?

人们高估了什么，又低估了什么？

What are people over estimating on, and what are people underestimating on?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我认为他们低估了脆弱性的重要性，无论是他们自己的还是对方的。

I think they underestimate the importance of vulnerability, their own vulnerability and the other person's.

而且，就像你说的，把它描述成一种特质，但这不完全是我看待它的方式。

And, again, like, you're describing it like a trait, but that isn't totally how I think about it.

并不是说我想找一个脆弱的人。

It's not like I wanna find a vulnerable person.

我想找一个愿意对我敞开心扉、愿意向我倾诉的人。

I wanna find somebody who's willing to be vulnerable with me, who's willing to disclose things to me.

我的意思是，不知道你有没有过这样的经历：当你认识一个人，第一次他们告诉你一些关于他们自己非常私密的事情时，你会感觉到他们没对多少人说过这些。

I mean, I don't know if you've ever had this experience of getting to know somebody, but the first time they tell you something deeply personal about themselves, you get the sense they haven't told this to many people.

这本身就有点像一种催情剂。

That's kind of an aphrodisiac in and of itself.

就好像这个人真的在向我敞开心扉。

It's like this person is really opening up to me.

他们一定非常信任我。

They must really trust me.

他们感觉自己被选中了，很特别。

They feel chosen and special.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我认为在脆弱性的交汇处，人们并没有完全理解一些东西。

So there's something at the intersection of vulnerability that I think people don't quite get.

我觉得人们在考虑约会时，想到的是自我推销，是展现自己最好的一面。

I think when people think about dating, they think about self promotion, they think about putting the best version of themselves out there.

但很多时候再次遇到这种情况——这会让很多人震惊——确实有相关研究支持这一点。

But a lot of times coming across again, this is going to shock a lot of people, but there really is research on this.

比如，表现出一点脆弱性，有点像你本来的样子——‘需要帮助’可能太强烈了，但就是稍微开放一点，愿意让别人为你做些事，愿意向他人学习。

Like, coming across as a little bit vulnerable, a little bit like you kind of are, like, needy is too strong, but, like, just a touch of openness to having somebody else do do things for you, to learning from another person.

这或许是一种很好的思考方式。

That's maybe a good way of thinking about it.

你知道这让我想到了什么吗？

You know what you know what it makes me think of?

这让我想到了某种情感上的互惠利他主义。

It makes me think of kind of, like, emotional reciprocal altruism in that way.

我要给你一个小东西。

I'm going to give you a little thing.

在给予的过程中，有一个心理学研究表明，人们更希望你向他们求助而不是为他们提供帮助，因为这里面隐含着互惠性。

And in the giving of that, what's that psychological study where people prefer you to ask them for a favor than to do a favor for them because inherent in that is this reciprocal.

在未来的某个时刻，你会觉得也许我可以回报你，这让我感到自己是有帮助的。

At some point in future, you think that maybe I could do this back to you, and I feel helpful.

这里面一个有趣的、我想说的微妙之处是，我很想看到按年龄层来分解分析这个现象。

An interesting, like, wrinkle in that, I guess, would be I'd love to have this broken down by age.

我有种感觉，年轻人可能会更难理解这个人情感复杂性背后的含义。

I get the sense that younger people are going to be they're gonna find a in a tougher time to work out what the emotional complexity of this person means.

这种脆弱是否意味着22岁时缺乏韧性和资源储备，而到了32岁你才意识到，哇，这个人其实非常勇敢才能达到能够敞开心扉的阶段。

Does this vulnerability signal a lack of resilience and resource provisioning at 22 when at 32, you actually realize, wow, this person's been very brave in order to get themselves to the stage where they can open up.

我在寻找不同的东西。

I'm looking for different sorts of things.

我在更广泛的背景下理解这一点。

I understand this in the in the broader context.

我之所以这么说，是因为我所有三十多岁的单身朋友，如果他们发一些像是狗狗照片、抱着侄子的照片或者他们...是的。

And the reason that I say this is I know all of my single friends in their thirties, if they post something that is like a dog photo or them holding a nephew or them Yeah.

以一种正念的方式交谈，这类帖子从女性那里获得的互动远比她们二十多岁时要多得多。

Talking in a kind of mindful way, those sorts of posts get way more engagement from women than they would have done in their twenties.

而且，它们从女性那里获得的互动也远比展示自己的车、劳力士手表或是新的硬拉成绩要多。

And, also, they get way more engagement from women than posting their car or their Rolex or their new deadlift.

说白了，我认为很多男性以为对女性有吸引力的那种所谓的‘阿尔法姿态’内容，可能在某种程度上是次要的，但它也很大程度上说明了你的价值观以及更好的起点应该是什么。

Like, the the bottom line is I think a lot of the, like, alpha posturing stuff that guys think is attractive to women might be in kind of like an ancillary way, but it also says a lot about what you value and what would be a better place to start.

这他妈真是个有争议的观点。

Controversial fucking take.

如果你，如果你作为一个想找伴侣的男性发布支持家庭的内容，我认为你立刻就游进了一片蓝海。

If you if you post pro family stuff as a guy who's trying to get a partner, I think that you are swimming immediately into a blue ocean.

而如果你试图发布兰博基尼的照片，那甚至都不是红海。

Whereas if you try and post if you try and post a Lamborghini photo, it's not even a red ocean.

你甚至都还没跳进去。

You haven't even jumped in.

我认为女孩们并不在乎。

I don't think that girls care.

比如说，我我我可能说得不对。

Like, I I I may be wrong.

也许评论区会有大量女性表示，我我很喜欢看男生在Instagram上晒新车。

I may be there may be floods of women in the comments who are saying, I I love seeing it when guys post their new car on their Instagram.

这种内容会让我对他们特别心动。

Like, it makes me so attracted to them.

但直觉告诉我并非如此。

Something tells me No.

那将会是

That's gonna be the

但是我非常喜欢这个想法

But I I I love this idea.

我认为年龄这个概念很有意思，或者至少说随着人们年龄增长、拥有更多约会经验后，他们会从过往经历中学习并成长改变

I think the age idea is interesting or at least the idea that that as people age and, you know, they have more experience dating, that they kinda learn from their past experiences and grow and change.

我觉得这种成熟过程确实有其价值

I think there's something to be said for that sort of maturation.

哦，抱歉。

Oh, sorry.

我需要打断一下。

I need to interrupt.

想想看，随着时间的推移，基于兼容性产生的联结——这发生在与单一个体的互动中，你发现自己越来越喜欢他们，因此对他们的评价也越来越高。

Think about So you've got your idea of over time the compatibility driven bonding, and that is within an interaction with a single individual, you work out that you like them more, therefore you rate them more highly.

大致就是这么个运作方式。

That's kind of the way that it works.

我认为在一个人的恋爱生涯中，随着时间推移，这种兼容性驱动的联结是持续存在的，这样说你明白吗？

I think that you have this longitudinally across someone's dating career over time, you does that make sense?

你理解我的意思吗？

You understand what I'm getting at?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我非常确定这项研究从未进行过，因为要追踪一个人整个恋爱生涯实在太难了。

I'm quite sure that study has never been done because it's very, very hard to track people across their dating career.

一方面可能可以

Could kinda one hand did

五年前你喜欢什么？

you used to like, what did you like five years ago?

你现在喜欢什么？

What do you like now?

你是如何在前端为不同事物进行优化的？

How are you optimizing on the front end for different things?

这可以解释我们关于脆弱性的一个小理论——为什么三十多岁的脆弱性与二十多岁的脆弱性意义不同。

And this would explain our little theory about why vulnerability perhaps in your thirties means something different than vulnerability in your twenties.

也许那个开着兰博基尼的22岁年轻人，和那个发兰博基尼动态的39岁的人是不一样的。

That maybe the 22 year old that's got the Lambo is different to the 39 year old who's posting the Lambo.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

而且，关于长期约会还有一个棘手的问题，那就是人们约会时试图做什么，即使你三十多岁，离过一两次婚也是如此。

And and there's there's a tricky thing too about dating over time, which is that, like, what people are trying to do as they date, and this even goes if you're in your thirties, you get a divorce or two.

这都是过程的一部分，每一段新的关系都与前一段有所不同，但也会有一些相似之处。

This is all part of the process, is that each next relationship is a little different than the one that came before, but it's also going to have some similarities.

实际上，要弄清楚如何在这段关系中成为一个新人，让这段关系成功而不陷入之前关系的陷阱，是非常具有挑战性的。

It's actually very challenging to know how can I be a new person in this relationship that's going make this one work and not fall into the same pitfalls of the prior relationship?

这是一个微妙的平衡，因为你在之前的关系中做的有些事情其实效果很好，你应该再次去做那些事。

It's a tricky dance because there are some things that you were doing in that prior relationship that actually worked well and you should do those again.

还有些事情你应该彻底放弃，转向不同的方向。

And there are other things that you should totally scrap and go in a different direction.

当然所有这些最终都会变成与另一个人的双向互动。

And of course all of this ends up being a dyadic give and take with another person.

我们目前确实处于前沿阵地。

We are really at the vanguard right now.

就像，现有研究都不如我们正在进行的对话这样深入。

Like, research doesn't study things as well as the conversation we're having.

本节目由WHOOP赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by WHOOP.

我已经佩戴WHOOP超过五年了，远在他们成为节目合作伙伴之前。

I have been wearing WHOOP for over five years now, way before they were a partner on the show.

根据APP显示，我实际上用它记录了我超过一千六百天的生活数据，这简直太疯狂了。

I've actually tracked over sixteen hundred days of my life with it according to the app, which is insane.

这是我唯一坚持使用的可穿戴设备，因为它追踪所有重要指标：睡眠、锻炼、恢复情况、呼吸、心率，甚至你的步数。

And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters, sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps.

而全新的5.0版本是最佳版本。

And the new five point o is the best version.

你既能获得让Whoop不可或缺的所有优势——体积缩小了7%，现在还拥有14天的电池续航，并通过HealthSpan功能追踪你的习惯如何影响衰老速度。

You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable, 7% smaller, but now it's also got a 14 battery life and has HealthSpan to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging.

它还为女性提供荷尔蒙分析功能。

It's got hormonal insights for ladies.

我是Whoop的超级粉丝。

I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop.

这就是为什么它是我唯一坚持佩戴的可穿戴设备。

That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with.

最棒的是，你可以免费加入。

And best of all, you can join for free.

全新Whoop 5.0表带无需支付任何费用，首月还免费，并且提供30天退款保证。

Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop five point o strap, plus you get your first month for free, and there's a thirty day money back guarantee.

所以你可以免费获得它。

So you can buy it for free.

免费试用。

Try it for free.

如果你在29天后不喜欢，他们会全额退款。

If you do not like it after twenty nine days, they just give you your money back.

现在，你可以通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问join.whoop.com/modernwisdom，获得全新的Whoop 5.0和30天试用期。

Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop five point o and that thirty day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.

网址是join.whoop.com/modernwisdom。

That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.

我觉得这个想法很酷，老兄。

I think that's a cool idea, dude.

嗯，即使它永远无法被研究，我认为观察你随时间推移越来越熟练地辨别自己偏好以及它们如何变化的过程，了解自己并了解他人，我觉得这他妈太迷人了。

Well, I even if it can never be studied, I think that looking at the increasing dexterity with which you're able to discern your preferences over time and how they move, learning yourself and learning other people, I think is fucking fascinating.

而且我认为那真的很酷。

And I think that that's I think that's really cool.

而且我不认为，你知道，我很大程度上算是进化论世界里的那个典型白痴代表，至少在我这一边是这样。

And I don't think you know, I'm very much kind of the the token idiot representative for the evolutionary world here, at least on this side of the fence.

但我认为，这种视角可能是进化心理学难以进行研究的领域，或许关系科学在这方面会更擅长一些。

But I I I would argue that I think that perspective is going to be something that would be difficult for evolutionary psychology to to do the research into, but maybe something that relationship science might be might might be better at.

所以我猜想，脑海中浮现的问题是：吸引力在多大程度上只是品味和时机的问题呢？

So I I I guess the the the question that comes to mind is how much of attraction is just a matter of taste and timing then?

在吸引力方面，品味和时机扮演着什么角色？

What's the role of taste and timing when it comes to attraction?

我认为这两者占了很大比重。

I think it's a lot of it.

如果我们观察初次见面的人，我之前提到过这一点，但如果你看那个共识成分，它确实存在。

If we look at people who are meeting for the first time, I alluded to this earlier, but if you look at that consensus component, it's totally there.

但兼容性，我们可能称之为品味和时机，我的意思是它有点被包裹在兼容性这个词里，但它会更大一些，并且随着时间的推移会增长得更多。

But compatibility, what we might call taste and timing, I mean it's sort of wrapped up in the term compatibility, but that's going to be a little bigger and it ends up growing more over time.

现在，关于品味和时机的棘手之处在于，它非常难以预测，因为你可能会想，嗯，我可以通过某种方式利用整个兼容性成分，比如，我不知道，如果我真的很想和一个高个子的人在一起，比如说，如果我就像，好吧，我们把高个子男人排成一排，我就能更有可能找到一个特别吸引我的人。

Now, the tricky thing about taste and timing is that it is remarkably hard to predict because you might think like, Well, I can sort of make use of this whole compatibility component by, I don't know, like if I really want to be with somebody who's tall, for example, if I just like, you know, okay, let's line up the tall guys, and I can you know, I'm more likely to find somebody who's gonna especially appeal to me.

而这只是众多挑战中的又一个。

And this is just another one of those challenges.

事情并不是这样的。

It doesn't quite work that way.

比如，我们知道兼容性很重要，但预测起来却异常困难。

Like, we know compatibility is important, but it's remarkably hard to predict.

很多是通过对话实现的，但经常像是我们在聊天中随机岔开的话题，两个人发现，哦，哇，我们相隔三年却有同一位小学老师之类的。

And a lot of it comes through conversation, but it's often like the random side tracks that we get onto in conversations where two people find that, oh, woah, we had the same elementary school teacher three years apart or something like that.

对吧？

Right?

当你与他人交谈时，会发现那些小小的金块，那些偶然的惊喜时刻。

You find those little nuggets, those little moments of serendipity while you're talking with somebody else.

很多魔力就来源于此，但这些东西真的很难预测。

That's where a lot of the magic comes from, but it's just remarkably hard to predict that stuff.

好的。

Okay.

那短期和长期的区别呢？

What about short term versus long term distinctions?

是阿尔法查德对决贝塔老爸，还是约炮型选手对决恋爱型选手？

Is it alpha Chads versus beta dads or sort of hookup material versus relationship material?

这些说法是真的吗？

Are these things true?

不完全是。

Not exactly.

真实情况是，正如我们讨论过的，有些人在初始吸引力领域更具优势，这意味着如果你是个十分满分的人，你会有更多约炮机会。

What is true is, as we've talked about, some people are better in the initial attraction realm, and so what that means is that if you're somebody that's a 10, you're gonna have more hookup opportunities.

你这一生会拥有更多的性伴侣。

You're gonna have more sex partners over the course of your life.

你知道，这些短期的成功，你会经历得更多。

You know, these sorts of short term successes, you'll have more of those.

问题是，这就像，等等。

The issue is that and this is, again, this is like, wait.

什么？

What?

这些家伙实际上并不是女生。

These guys, they actually and aren't girls.

这并没有真正的长期代价。

There's no real long term cost to that.

换句话说，那些让人在短期内具有吸引力的特质，对一个人长期的吸引力根本无关紧要。

In other words, the attributes that make somebody desirable in the short term, they're just irrelevant to a person's long term desirability.

吸引力让

Attractiveness makes

并非无关紧要。

Not irrelevant.

不。

No.

确实，这与他们的伴侣最终对他们的评价好坏之间相关性为零。

Truly, the correlation of zero with how good their partners will ultimately rate them.

事实上，如果说有什么影响的话，其中一些因素反而是相反的

In fact, if anything, some of this stuff goes in the opposite

好的。

Okay.

所以你只是有个问题

So you question just a

关于那个问题。

question on that.

如果随着时间的推移，丈夫或妻子体重增加很多——这很可能会降低你的吸引力——大多数人还是更愿意保持健康的体重，而不是不健康。

If over time a husband or a wife was to gain a lot of weight, which is probably a reliable way to decrease your attractiveness, most people would rather be of a healthy rate than than than not.

很少有人胖的时候比拥有健康体重时更好看。

Very few people look better fat than look better at a fit body weight.

是的。

Yep.

你是说这对预测伴侣是否仍会被他们吸引没有任何预测力吗？

Are you saying that that would have no predictive power over whether or not their partner would still be attracted to them?

你知道，根据我见过的所有数据，所有关于吸引力的数据，我的意思是，你描述的是一个随时间变化的趋势，但我很确定这项研究还没有做过。

You know, all the data I've seen, all the attractiveness data I've seen, I mean, you're describing a trend over time and I'm pretty sure that study hasn't been done.

但直截了当地说，这些人的吸引力水平如何？

But just straight up, what is the attractiveness level of these people?

我要将其与伴侣的恋爱满意度相关联——他们有多幸福？是否愿意继续这段关系？

And I'm going to correlate that with the romantic satisfaction of their partners, how happy they are, or do I wanna continue this relationship in the future?

相关性近乎为零。

Correlation is near zero.

它根本无法预测任何结果。

It just doesn't predict much of anything.

我理解数据可能暗示了什么，即使我们没有这方面的具体数据，但我认为我们都可以依靠直觉，而直觉在这里已经足够有力：如果你的丈夫在三年内胖了50磅，你几乎不可能还以同样的方式看待他；再极端一点，要是胖了150磅呢？

I I understand what the data may suggest even though we don't have data around this specifically, but I think we can all use intuition, and that can be sufficiently powerful here, that if your husband gains 50 pounds over the space of three years, the likelihood that you see him in the exact same way Take it to a do reductio ad absurdum, a 150 pounds.

你的意思是，吸引力不可能为零。

Like, you're you're talking about attractiveness can't be zero.

它根本不可能为零。

It simply can't be zero.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

听好了。

Look.

我完全明白，人们确实会遇到像你所说的那种经历，然后就会说：‘那我就不信这些数据了。’

I I totally get it, and people will have people will have experiences like what you're talking about and and be like, well, then I don't buy the data.

我完全理解。

And and I absolutely get it.

我只是觉得，我必须面对眼前的事实。

I'm just like, I gotta work with with what's in front of me.

我会记下这一点。

I will note this.

确实，当人们经历变化和衰老时，我们可以看看年龄这样的因素。

It is true that, like, as people go through changes and as they age like, we can look at things like age.

随着时间推移，这会产生什么影响？

What does that do over time?

尤其是当人们步入中年，以及随之而来的各种变化时，人们的整体满意度会下降。

As people age, especially, like, into middle age and all of the things that come with that, there is an overall decrease in people's satisfaction.

对吧？

Right?

而且，有些情况确实与养育孩子带来的挑战有关。

So and and and look, some of that is related to the fact that challenges emerge as you have kids.

比如，当你进入四五十岁时，工作往往会变得非常艰难。

Like, jobs are often really hard when you get into your forties and fifties.

所以你确实会这样，而且可能人们的身体状况也会变得更差。

So you do And probably people get more out of shape too.

所以我完全认同这可能是更广泛的年龄相关趋势的一部分。

So I totally buy that that can be part of that broader age related trend.

所以我确实认为这其中是有一定道理的。

So I do think there is something to that.

但如果我们考虑人与人之间的差异，很多这类研究的设计方式是：我在基线时获取你的某些属性，然后用这些属性预测你的伴侣在三个月后、六个月后对你的感受。

But if we're thinking about differences between people, and a lot of the way these studies are done, it's like I get some attributes on you at baseline, and then I use that to predict how your partner feels about you three months later, six months later.

我们讨论的时间范围不像你举的例子那么长，但在那类研究中，那些让人更具吸引力的属性——自信的男女、有魅力的男女——当你用这些来预测长期关系成功时，其实作用并不太大。

We're not talking about the kinds of time frames in your example, but with those kinds of studies, the attributes that make somebody more desirable, the confident guys and women, the attractive men and women, just when you use that to predict long term relationship success, it just doesn't do all that much.

实际上，这个嘛...确实如此。

And and actually, this is yeah.

那么回到短期与长期区别这个话题——是的。

And so going back to the short term versus long term distinction Yeah.

你提到有些人通过外表传递信号，比如展现阿尔法特质，或者女性方面表现出随意、轻浮的能量，暗示自己接受短期伴侣关系，然后人们就把他们归入不同类别。

You're talking about some people signal in the way that they look a alpha or maybe easy or kind of tardy, flirty energy from the female side that suggests I am up for short term mating and that people then bucket them into categories.

你的意思是这并不一定属实。

You're what you're suggesting is that this doesn't necessarily seem to be true.

但人们的行为难道不是这样吗？比如第一次约会就发生关系，这难道不暗示了不同的动机吗？

Is it not the case though that people's behavior like, if you give up sex on the first date, does that not suggest something different about your motivations?

难道没有这层含义吗？

Does is there not an implication?

就像我初次约会时穿运动裤而不是穿两件套西装，这暗示了我的性格特点。

In the same way as if I turn up to the first date wearing joggers as opposed to wearing a two piece suit, that suggests something about my character.

如果我放弃发生关系，或者作为男性在初次约会时就急于发生关系，这是否也暗示了我的个性？

If I give up sex or if I push for sex on the first date as a man, does that not also suggest something about my personality?

我认为这确实能反映你的个性，我当然不会说这一定是好主意，或者至少在所有情境下都不是好主意。

I think it does suggest things about your personality, and I'm certainly not gonna suggest that it's necessarily a good idea or at least certainly not a good idea in all contexts.

但我认为人们最容易理解的步骤是区分短期和长期关系。

But I think that the easiest step for people to make is to think of short term, long term.

这不是单一维度的问题。

It's not a single dimension.

我们把它当作两个维度来讨论，好吗？

Let's talk about it as two dimensions, okay?

所以有些人愿意在第一次约会时发生性关系，而有些人则不愿意，也许这些人会是好的长期伴侣，也许他们不会。

So some people are willing to have sex on the first date and some people are not, And maybe those people will be good long term partners or maybe they won't be.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you see what I mean?

将其视为衡量人与人之间差异的独立方式，而不是将人们置于单一维度上。

Think about it as independent ways of measuring differences between people rather than as a single dimension that we're putting people on.

实际上情况比这更复杂，但我们可以从这个概念开始：就像某人床柱上的刻痕数量，最终并不能很好地预测他们在关系中的幸福程度。

It actually gets more complicated than that, but we can sort of start there with the idea that like somebody like the notches that somebody has on their bedpost, it just ultimately doesn't predict that much about how happy they'll be in their relationships.

你有时会在家庭研究领域听到这种说法，比如‘婚前性行为对婚姻有害’。

You get this in the family studies community sometimes, will talk about like, Oh, having premarital sex is like bad for your marriage.

几乎算不上。

Like barely.

那些相关性微乎其微。

Those correlations are absolutely tiny.

我完全不会担心这个问题。

I would not worry about that at all.

所以就是类似这样的情况。

So it's stuff like that.

难道更容易或渴望早期发生性行为的人最终关系会更差吗？

It is not the case that people who are more likely to have sex or eager to have sex early ultimately have worse relationships?

我不认为他们的关系会更差。

I don't think that they would have worse relationships.

我认为关键在于这向对方传递了什么信息——无论准确与否，无论这个初次约会就发生关系或没有发生关系的人是否会成为不同类型的伴侣，你对他们的解读才是最重要的。

What I think is the what that tells the other person, whether it's accurate or not, whether it's correct that this person who gives up sex on the first date or doesn't is going to be a different sort of a partner, your interpretation of them is what matters.

这就是你的全部观点，对吧？

Like, this is your entire point, right?

你的全部观点是，客观指标和那种真相不一定重要。

Your entire point is that the objective metrics, the kind of truth doesn't necessarily matter.

重要的是由兼容性驱动的配对结合，这也意味着如果我的兼容性的一部分——我认为对很多女性来说是这样——如果这个男生带我出去约会五次，对我非常好，然后才请求亲吻，我会认为他在性方面相当自律。

What matters is compatibility driven pair bonding, which also means if part of my compatibility, which I would say for a lot of women is if this guy takes me out on five dates and treats me really nicely and only then asks for a kiss, I would consider him to be sort of sexually disciplined.

我会认为他相当克制。

I would consider him to be quite withheld.

看起来他对我真的很好。

It seems like he's really treating me nicely.

那会是另一种不同的解读，无论对错。

That would be a different sort of interpretation, right or wrong.

而因为你的解读才是最重要的，这正是你整个论点的核心。

And because your interpretation is all that matters, which is the entirety of your thesis Exactly.

如果你那样做了，无论数据中关于这对长期关系满意度意味着什么，无论你是否会继续和他们在一起，你对这个人的看法因其行为而改变这一事实，就意味着它是真实的。

If you do that, whether it's true in the data about what that means for long term relationship satisfaction, if you were to stick with them or not, the fact that you have had your perspective of this person changed by their behavior means that it's true.

这是一个合理的理解吗？

Is that a fair conception?

我非常赞同。

I love it.

我非常喜欢。

I absolutely love it.

所以，如果你想在这个世界里有效地约会，你就需要知道：当我跟你第一次约会时，如果我明确表示我想今晚和你发生关系，而不是在第三次或第五次约会时，这到底意味着什么？

And so what you'd want if you're trying to date effectively in this world is you'd wanna know, like, as I'm going on a first date with you, what exactly would it mean if I made it clear I wanted to have sex with you tonight versus on date three versus on date five?

并且顺应对方想要或期待的剧本。

And to kind of play into the script that that person was wanting or expecting.

同样，这也取决于你真正想要的是什么。

Again, also kind of depending on what it is that you want.

也许你只是喜欢这个人到想和他发生关系的程度，并不真的对更深入的关系感兴趣。

Maybe you only like this person enough to want to have sex with them, you're not really interested in something like that.

这正是一个完美的例子。

So perfect example there.

这正是我认为的信号。

That is exactly what I think the signal is.

其中之一就是：这个人是认真的吗？

That is one of them is, is this person serious?

他们是否把我视为一个真正的、类似投资机会的对象？

Do they see me as a real, like, investment opportunity?

我认为我们更多是在讨论女性这一方的情况。

And that's we're more talking, I think, about the female side.

但在男性这边，则是关注这位女性的贞洁程度如何？

But on the male side, it's what's this woman's level of chastity like?

稀缺性，无论好坏，无论数据是否准确反映，它都被视为一种价值储备。

Scarcity, for better or for worse, whether it shows up in the data as an accurate representation or not, scarcity is seen as a store of value.

某些东西越稀有，往往被视为越有价值，无论这是否属实。

Something which is rarer is often seen as more valuable, whether it's true or not.

我可以告诉你，如果你去调查100位处于长期关系中的男性，再调查100位已婚男性，还有100位单身男性。

And I I can tell you, if you were to if you were to go and survey, a 100 men that are in long term relationships and then another 100 men that are in marriages and then another 100 men that were single.

对那些有伴侣的男性，你会问他们：从第一次约会到发生性关系，你们用了多长时间？

And to the guys that were in relationships, you were to say with your partner, what was the amount of time that it took from the first date until you had sex?

而对于那些单身的男性，或者实际上，可以对所有有伴侣的男性都这样调查。

And with the guys that were single, or in fact, could just do it across all of the guys that are partnered.

对于之前那些最终没有发展成恋爱关系的女性，这个时间间隔是多久？

In previous, with previous women who you didn't end up in a relationship with, what was the amount of time?

如果你发现他们当前维持的关系或终身伴侣中，从初次约会到发生亲密关系的时间间隔，比那些没有结果的关系要长，我一点都不会感到惊讶。

I would be very surprised if you don't see a longer duration from first date until they got physically intimate in the relationships that they are currently in now or the one that they stay in for the rest of their life compared with the ones that did not graduate.

那些没有结果的关系。

That didn't go anywhere.

没错。

Correct.

我理解这种直觉。

I get this intuition.

我们有一些数据可以说明这一点，我能告诉你的是，当你观察那些会发展成短期或长期关系的轨迹时。

We have some data that can speak to this, and what I can tell you is that when you look at the trajectory of relationships that will become short term or long term.

我认为这就是我如何看待短期和长期关系的方式。

And I think this is how I like to think about short term, long term.

短期关系的意思是，我喜欢你到可以发生关系，但也就仅此而已了。

Short term is, I liked you enough to hook up, but that was kind of it.

而长期关系则是，我喜欢你到愿意亲密，而且请你留下来吃早餐，因为你很棒，我喜欢和你在一起。

Versus long term is like, I liked you enough to hook up, and also please stay for breakfast because you're great and I love hanging out with you.

所以当你把这些事件排列起来——初次见面、交谈、可能见你的朋友、我们单独相处、甚至到第一次亲密接触、接吻、乃至第一次性体验——这些发展轨迹看起来非常相似。

So when you line those things up, the first several events that happen, I meet you, I talk, maybe I meet your friends, we hang out one on one, even through the first hookup, make out, even first sexual experience, boy, do those trajectories look similar.

人们并不一定知道这段关系会走向何方。

People don't necessarily know where this thing is going.

而我们实际发现，这并不完全符合你的时间框架假设。

And what we actually find this doesn't get to your timeframe hypothesis exactly.

但我们确实观察到，如果你看第一次性行为，人们在最终发展为长期关系中的首次性体验评分远高于短期关系，就好像美好的性爱能将关系推向更高层次，将其推向长期发展。

But what we do see is that if you look at first sex, the first sexual experience people rate as far more positively in relationships that become long term than relationships that become short term, As if the good sex catapults relationships even higher, catapults them into the long term.

短期关系更像是那种

The short term relationships are the ones that are kinda like

那里缺乏兼容性。

There wasn't there wasn't compatibility there.

嗯，是的。

Well Yeah.

比如，这个还行吧。

Like, this is okay.

嗯，我我会说，性兼容性无论早晚被评判都不令人意外。

Well, I I would say I would say that sexual compatibility being judged early or not early is unsurprising.

就像，这只是你需要通过的又一个门槛，你或者通过了，或者没通过。

Like, this is just another one of the levels at which it's a gate that you need to get through, and you either did or didn't get through that gate.

什么是你做不到的。

What would be and you can't do this.

我很想重新实验一次，让一组人在第二次约会时就有良好性体验，另一组在第五次约会时才有，然后观察同一对情侣的长期发展。

You would I would love to run it back and have somebody who did have good sex, but it was two dates in, and somebody who did have good sex, but it was five dates in, and then the same couple and see what happened over time.

因为这正是我们要探究的核心问题。

Because that's really what we're getting at.

我们真正想弄明白的是：等待时长会产生怎样的影响？

What we're getting at is what is the is the impact of the duration of waiting?

而且我觉得讨论这个，比讨论那些客观指标——比如阿尔法气质展现——要容易得多。

And I think this is easier to me to talk about than objective metrics of, like, alpha presentation.