#1061 - 奥利弗·伯克曼 - 为什么你无法戒掉生产力成瘾

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

当然，这并不真实。

And of course it's not true.

比如，如果你一开始就想提高效率或有所成就，那么你可以相当确定，你并不是那种稍微放松一点就会彻底垮掉的人。

Like, you know, if you're interested in being productive or ambitious in the first place, you can pretty much assume that you're not the kind of person who's just gonna become a wreck if you were to ease up on yourself a bit.

对我来说，最大的领悟是，当我能找到一种允许自己关注内心真正想做的事的效率方式时，

And the big revelation for me was finding that when I can pursue some kind of approach to productivity that allows me to take note of what I want to do.

首先，你能利用这种能量，而不是一直试图压抑它。

Firstly, you get to harness that energy instead of trying to squash it all the time.

对吧？

Right?

搞出那些极其僵化、像紧身衣一样的效率体系简直太荒谬了，它们说，哪怕你很想做X，也必须做Y，因为那是

It's like crazy to come up with these incredibly rigid straight jacket productivity systems that say like, even if you feel like working on x, gotta work on y because that was what

你，是的。

you Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

那是你安排的。

That was what you assigned.

你只是在浪费自己的精力。

You're just wasting your own energy.

其次，一个重大的发现是，事实上，我有时享受的正是那些我原本绝不会强迫自己去做的工作或行政事务，但我感觉必须去做。

And then secondly, the big discovery is that actually, among the things I enjoy sometimes is things that involve work or administrative things that I would never have wanted to try to force myself to do, but feel like I need to do.

这些属于义务范畴的事情。

Those sort of the things that belong to the world of obligation.

实际上，一天或一周中确实会有一些时刻，你就是想做这些事，因为你希望自己是一个信守承诺、有条理的人，诸如此类。

Actually, there there does come there do come moments in the day or the week when that's the thing that you want to do because you wanna be the kind of person who keeps your commitments and is organized and all sorts of things like that.

所以，如果你的职业环境允许的话，我认为至少可以稍微更多地以兴趣和愉悦为导向，这几乎不会有什么损失。

So it's kind of a no lose situation if your professional situation permits it at all, I think, to to navigate by fun and enjoyment at least a little bit more than you probably are doing.

是的。

Yeah.

你写过关于兴趣至上的观点。

You wrote about the idea that interest is everything.

当你在拖延一个项目，疑惑为什么你表面上成功的职业生涯却感觉不如预期中充满活力，或在面对艰难的人生选择时感到停滞，值得问问自己：你是否已经忘记了尽可能围绕真正让你感兴趣的事情来构建你的日常生活的重要性。

When you're procrastinating on a project, wondering why your outwardly successful career doesn't feel as vibrant as it could or feeling stuck on a difficult life choice, it's worth asking if you've forgotten the importance of building your days as far as you're able around what actually interests you.

我认为这解释了很多人所处的困境：他们难以做自己想做的事，因为他们觉得这在市场中不会有效，或者认为这不对。

And I think this sort of explains the bind that many people are in, where they struggle to do what they want because they think it won't be as effective in the marketplace or something, or it's it's not right.

不知为何，他们想做的事就是不对。

For some reason, what they want to do is not right.

让他们感兴趣的事就是不对，于是他们自我削弱。

What interests them is not right, So they nerf that.

我一直很感兴趣，想听听你在这方面的经历，因为我认为这一点在任何数字媒介相关的事物中都特别明显，包括我做的大部分事情，但尤其体现在你所做的、以及你做事的规模上。

And, you know, I've I've I've been fascinated about to hear about your experiences with this because I think one of the one of the places this is really evident is in any kind of any kind of digitally mediated stuff, including most of what I do, but especially a lot of what you do and at the scale that you do it.

对吧？

Right?

当你这么做时，你有能力真正了解别人对什么有回应。

You have the capacity to really know what other people respond well to when you do it.

这种现象在播客和其他领域中广为人知，常常让人误入歧途，比如受众捕获现象等等。

This this phenomenon is famous in podcasting and elsewhere for leading some people sort of astray, the kind of audience capture phenomenon and the rest of it.

但即使你没有被受众捕获，你仍然随时可能决定，你要做的就是给人们他们想要的东西。

But even if you're not being audience captured, you're still liable or susceptible at any moment to really decide that what you're going to try to do is give people what they want.

而不是给你自己更感兴趣、更想给予他们的内容。

And I think as opposed to what you want to give them because it's more interesting for you.

当然，最大的讽刺在于——至少根据我有限的经验——人们真正想要的，是阅读、观看或聆听那些对自己所谈所做之事充满热情的人的内容。

The big irony, of course, I think, at least my limited experience has been, actually what people want is to read, watch, listen to things from people who are really alive with interest in what they're in what they're talking about and and dealing with.

在我们继续之前，我非常支持减少饮酒，但历史上，无酒精啤酒的味道简直像屎。

Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, nonalcoholic brews taste like ass.

你不需要来一次大 reset。

You don't need to be doing some big reset.

也许你只是想喝一杯冰啤酒，第二天早上却不觉得难受，这正是我如此推崇 Athletic Brewing Co 的原因。

Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.

他们提供了50多种无酒精啤酒，包括IPA、金色啤酒，甚至还有鸡尾酒灵感的帕洛玛和莫斯科骡子等限量版。

They've got 50 types of NAs, including IPAs, Goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule.

关键是这一点。

And here's the thing.

你可以随时饮用。

You can drink them anytime.

深夜、清晨、看球赛、打球，都没关系。

Late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter.

没有宿醉。

No hangover.

毫无妥协。

No compromise.

这就是我与他们合作的原因。

And that is why I partnered with them.

你可以在附近的超市或酒类商店找到Athletic Brewing Co的畅销系列，或者更好的选择是，直接订购包含四种口味的完整组合装，送货上门。

You can find Athletic Brewing Co's best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door.

现在，通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问 athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom，您可以享受首单15%的折扣。

Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.

就是 athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom。

That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.

确实如此。

So true.

对。

Yeah.

根据我的经验，当我越偏离自己真正感兴趣的事情、越偏离我想对话的人时，节目就越糟糕。

And in my experience, the further I've gotten away from what is it that I've interested in, who is it that I want to speak to, the worse the show's got.

现在收视数据可能上升了，但如果这根本不是我关心的事——比如你做慈善，或者你是神经外科医生——那责任就在你身上。

Now the numbers may have gone up, but if it's something that I don't care about like, maybe if you run a charity or something, or you're a a neurosurgeon or something, like, it's on you.

你的工作是为了服务这件事，而成果的评判标准也更加明确。

Your job is in service of this thing, and and it's the parameters of outcome are a bit more tightly defined.

比如，你做手术时，只要手术成功了，你喜不喜欢根本无关紧要。

Like, it's not if if you do the surgery and it goes well, it doesn't matter if you enjoyed it or not.

对吧？

Right?

重要的是结果。

Like, what matters is the outcome.

但在这类对话中，甚至包括博客在内，都只是感觉而已。

But with this, the all the these sorts of conversations and largely even blogging as well, it's just vibes.

你那天的感觉怎么样？

Just what was your vibe that day?

你表达这个观点时用了什么样的语言？

What was the kind of language that you used when you put this thing across?

你给对话带来了什么样的能量？

What was the sort of energy that you brought into the conversation?

对我而言，确实有过这样的时候：哦，邀请这个人来在策略上会很棒。

And, yeah, for for me, there's been times where, oh, it would be tactically great to bring this person on.

从形象或类似的角度来看，这会很有帮助。

It would be, useful from an optics perspective or whatever.

而且，我做得还不错。

And, I've done pretty well.

我拒绝了一些嘉宾，如果外界知道我拒绝了他们，一定会震惊，因为我就是觉得不对劲，完全没那种感觉。

I've said no to some guests on the podcast that would fucking shock the world that I've said no to because I just it just didn't feel it just straight up didn't feel something.

我就觉得，不行。

It just I was like, no.

答案就是不行。

The answer the answer was no.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我越这么做，就越会想，‘Morgan Housel，第七次了。’

And the more that I've done that and the more that I've been like, yeah, Morgan Housel for the seventh time.

对。

Yes.

Rory Sutherland，第十一次了。

Rory Sutherland for the eleventh time.

我根本不关心。

I don't give a fuck.

我就要这么做。

I'm just gonna do it.

比如，Rory Sutherland一个人就占了这个播客将近1%的内容。

Like, Rory Rory Sutherland accounts for, like, nearly 1% of this podcast.

不是吗？

Isn't it?

这个播客的不少时长其实都是Rory Sutherland的。

Like, not insignificant amount of hours on this podcast have been Rory Sutherland.

你和我，你知道的，我会一直继续这么做。

And and you you and I, you know, I just I will continue to do it.

而且，是的，这种张力存在于什么具有市场吸引力、什么真正有效之间，尤其是因为不幸的是，对很多事情来说，势头远比能力或质量更重要。

And, yeah, this tension between what is marketable, what is effective, especially because people unfortunately, momentum is so much more important than ability or quality for a lot of things.

这意味着，只要你玩得够久，就可以借助已经积累的势头，轻松地持续下去——我先制造一些势头，然后就能顺势落地，再重复同样的过程。

And that means that if you play the game enough, you can then sort of burn and coast with I've applied some momentum, and then I sort of get to come into land and then do the same.

所以这就是为什么玩这个游戏但要知道它并不在于此。

So that's why playing the game but knowing it's not about it.

因此我认为这确实有道理可言。

That's why I do think that there's an argument to be made.

嗯，比如这位电影明星或音乐人之类的，也许他们确实有意思。

Well, yeah, you know, like this movie star or musician or whatever that maybe they're interesting.

也许吧，看看你和他们相处得怎么样。

Maybe, you know, we'll see see how you get on with them.

有时候真的很棒。

And sometimes it's really great.

经常也有时候非常棒。

Often there's times it's really great.

就像这样掷骰子，好吧。

Like, rolling the dice in that way to be like, okay.

我们会积累更多势头，然后我会邀请更多人来了解一些更小众的理念。

We're gonna pick up a bit more steam, and then I'm gonna bring more people in to learn about some more niche ideas.

这未必是世界上最糟糕的事，但天哪，这事儿是有上限的。

That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but fucking hell, there is an upper bound.

如果我开始超越那个所谓的奥弗顿窗口，事情就会变得极其乏味。

And I I if I start to stray beyond that whatever Overton window thing, it gets it gets so it's so dull.

所以，这就是为什么你在那篇博客文章里提到，与生命力建立连接才是最终目标。

And, you know, that's why you've got this line in that in that blog post where you say connect connecting to the aliveness is the ultimate point.

就是说，与你正在做的事情本身的生命力建立连接。

Like, just connecting to the aliveness of what the thing is that you're doing.

因为另一个观点是，当你提到你可以做出某些不那么‘那样’的决定，但数据可能会上升时，首先你可能会争辩说，如果你一直这么做，数据并不会无限上升。

Well, because the other I mean, the other point is, like, yeah, when you said that you can take certain decisions that that are not like that, but the numbers might go up, you know, firstly, you might wanna argue that the numbers wouldn't wouldn't indefinitely go up if you kept doing it.

可能短期内会有提升。

There might be a short term boost.

但归根结底，你为什么要在乎呢？

But also, like, you know, at the end of the day, why do you care?

对吧？

Right?

一切最终都会回到这个问题：如果你所不做的事情，本质上是一种整体且有意义的体验，那么一旦基本的饮食和住所得到保障，你为什么还要去做它呢？

That's what it always comes back to is if the thing you're not doing is an overall and an aggregate sort of a meaningful experience, then once you've got, like, you know, basic food and shelter taken care of, why why would you why would you do it?

我说起来好像这是件很容易记住的事。

And it's I mean, I say it as if it's an easy thing to remember.

显然，我们所有人其实一直在遗忘它，一味追求那些导向其他工具性结果的工具性目标，却渐渐忽略了这一切是否真的有意义。

It's obviously we're all forgetting it all the time and kind of pursuing these instrumental goals that lead to other instrumental outcomes and kind of losing sight of whether they're all yeah.

这就像是爬梯子时，突然意识到梯子架错了地方。

It's the thing about climbing a ladder and realizing it was the wrong

我觉得梯子是架在错的墙上。

I think it was the wrong wall.

靠在了错误的墙上。

Leaning against the wrong wall.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a really good point.

我一直在思考这个问题，随着人工智能的出现，现在任何写作、说话或甚至任何从事创作的人都有可能通过使用人工智能来增强自己的工作流程。

I I've been thinking about this with the advent of AI because everybody has now anyone that writes or or or speaks or fucking anybody has the potential to augment their process by using AI.

它给我们提供了一个机会，让我们能够以前所未有的规模发布并声称自己完成了实际上并未亲自完成的工作。

And one of the things that it's given us the opportunity to do is basically put out take credit for work that we didn't do at a scale that no one's ever been able to in the past.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Right.

人们以前在组织层面也曾以较小的规模这样做过。

People have done it in organizations and stuff at a lower scale.

对吧？

Right?

把下属的成果据为己有，但是

Taking credit for their what their underlings produce, but

这就像，你知道的，但这是核弹级别的。

this is like You know, but it it is nuclear.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此，没错。

It really yeah.

确实是。

It is.

确实是。

It is.

而且每个人都能用上。

And it's available to everybody.

而且它还能以各种微小的方式发挥作用。

And it's available in sort of micro ways.

比如，假设你和你的伴侣发生了争执，你们俩最好能和好。

For instance, let's say that you and your partner had an argument, and it would be really good for you guys to make up.

于是你去找ChatGPT，把之前的几条消息粘贴进去，然后说：你能帮我写一条有深意又充满爱意的回复吗？这条消息要能妥协，但又不完全放弃我的界限，同时让我的伴侣感觉很棒。

And you go to ChatGPT and you load the last few messages in, and you say, can you write me a reply that is meaningful and loving, that compromises without completely destroying my boundaries and will make my partner feel great.

请尽可能多地运用心理学原理，但语气要轻松愉快。

Please refer to as many psychological principles as you can, but keep it light and lighthearted.

我们已经在一起五年了。

We've been together for about five years.

发送了。

Sent.

他们把回复发回给你。

They send you that back.

你把这条消息发给你的伴侣，比如说。

You send the message over to your partner, let's say.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你的伴侣说：宝贝，我很高兴你发了这条消息。

Your partner goes, baby, I'm so glad you sent me that message.

它让我感觉特别好。

It made me feel so good.

你知道吗，我最喜欢你哪一点？

I I just you know what I love about you?

而你听到的唯一声音却是：我是个骗子。

And then all that you hear coming into your ears is, I'm a fraud.

我是个骗子。

I'm a fraud.

我是个骗子。

I'm a fraud.

我是骗子。

I'm Liar.

骗子。

Liar.

做作的

Contrived.

自负的

Conceitful.

因为你们无法捕捉到这里真正发生的事情。

Like, because you do not get to capture what is truly happening here.

那不是你。

It wasn't you.

那不是你的本源。

It wasn't your genesis.

别人在说

What someone is saying

是对的。

is Right.

谢谢你让我看到真实的你，也谢谢你让我成为你思想的源泉、缪斯和灵感。

Thank you for showing me you, and thank you for how wonderful for me to be the progenitor, the muse, the inspiration for your thoughts.

因为你没有做这件事，所以你无法获得任何这些善意。

And because you didn't do it, you don't get to capture any of that goodwill.

是的。

Yes.

不是。

No.

这是一个很棒的、有点令人不寒而栗的例子，尽管我知道很多人正在这么做。

That's a great it's a great and kind of chilling example, although I know that lots of people are are doing it.

而且我觉得，是的。

And I think that yeah.

我的意思是，我希望我能把这个观点归功于别人，因为它并不是我自己的。

I mean, I think that I wish I could attribute this argument because it's not my own.

我从读过的一段话里借用了这个观点，但我已经不记得为什么读它了。

I'm borrowing it from something I read, and I can't remember why I read it.

但我觉得，当你在那种情境下使用大语言模型时，很多情况都像是想要保持控制权。

But I think that a lot of what happens when you use LLMs in that kind of context to sort of it's it's again, it's like wanting to stay in control.

对吧？

Right?

这是一种想要控制和引导过程的欲望，确保你说出正确的话。

It's wanting to sort of control and direct the process, make sure you say the right thing.

这完全不是关于这样一个事实：许多关系的修复发生在说错话之后的补救中。

It's totally not about the fact that a lot of relationship happens in the repair that follows saying the wrong thing.

对吧？

Right?

所以你必须先犯错。

So you have to sort of go wrong first.

但有人提出一个观点，说这是一种非常古老的现象，如今每个人似乎都在用心理治疗式的语言说话。

But somebody was making the argument that, you know, it's a very, very old observation that everyone seems to speak in therapy speak these days.

而这有时会让人对心理治疗本身大发雷霆。

And sometimes this leads people to go on tirades against therapy itself.

我总是想说，这两者完全是两回事。

And I always want to I always want to kind of say these are two totally different things.

对吧？

Right?

我其实很难用语言表达出来，但我看到有人提出这样一个观点：如今大量的治疗性话语，尤其是在过去几年里，实际上正是大型语言模型及其过度使用者的思维模式所产生的通用输出。

And I I couldn't really put words to it, but I saw this argument made that actually a lot of the therapy speak, especially in the, obviously, in the last couple of years or whatever, is really the kind of generic outputs of both of large language models and of the kind of brains that use them too much and come to think and and speak like them.

这与真正优秀的治疗完全相反。至少在我所熟悉的传统中，好的治疗是关于与另一个有意识、有情感的人建立长期真实的关系，根本不需要充斥着所谓的治疗术语和行话，更不需要把每个人类体验都变成某种技术性的病理分析。

It's the exact opposite of really good therapy, which is about, you know, at least in the tradition that I'm familiar with, is about, like, long term real relationship with another conscious emoting human being and absolutely doesn't need to be full of, you know, so called therapy speak and jargon terms and, you know, turning every human experience into a into a sort of technical path pathology or something.

这完全是两回事。

It's completely different.

但那种感觉——每个人都在过度思考自己要说的话，先琢磨好说什么——甚至仅仅是基于文本的沟通方式，比如邮件和消息，就已经

But that feeling that everyone is kind of thinking too hard about what they're saying, figuring out what to say first, Even just the nature of text based communication and email and messaging has

让你有能力删除

allowed You have the ability to delete

对。

Right.

你先思考，再斟酌，但即便如此，这也不过是次要的。

You think about it first, you work it out, you know, even that is a bit secondary.

这不是很有趣吗？

Isn't that interesting?

这真是个绝佳的观点。

Isn't that that's such a great point.

那到底是什么呢？

Because what what is it?

书面语言在人类历史上出现的时间其实非常短暂，没错。

Written language has been around for basically no time at all for human history, and Right.

口头语言的历史要久远得多。

Spoken language has been around for way longer.

而可编辑的书面语言，本质上只存在了短短一瞬。

And, like, editable written language has been around for a microsecond, essentially.

是的。

And the yeah.

对。

Yes.

我从来没想过这一点，但这个想法真的非常好——它难道不会营造出一种自我反思和相互激励的氛围，甚至是一种略带操纵性的压力吗？这真的是我想表达的意思吗？

That's a I've never even thought about that, but that's a really, really great idea that it does how could that not create a an environment of self assessment and and cajoling energy and this sort of semi manipulative coercion of was that really what I meant to say?

那不就是你所说的吗？

Was that well, it's what you said.

那就是你第一次说的内容。

It's what you said the first time.

还有第二次，哦，等你第三次回头去看的时候。

And the second oh oh, by the third time when you got to go back.

不是。

No.

这才是我真正想表达的意思。

That's that's more like what I meant to say.

如果所有书籍都必须在第一次起草时就出版，文学世界将会一团糟。

I'm not I'm not by any if if all books had to be published on the first pass, the world of literature would be a fucking mess.

但我认为这是一个非常有趣的见解。

But I I I I think that's a a really interesting insight.

回到关于工程乐趣的想法，我认为真正令人惊叹的魔力不在于只是埋头苦干艰难的任务。

Going back to the the idea about engineering enjoyment, I think the really impressive magic isn't in just grinding out difficult tasks.

真正厉害的是那些能把令人愉快的事情变成负担的顶尖人物。

It's the very elite strata of people who are able to turn something enjoyable into a drag.

这有点像逆向的斯多葛主义。

Like, that is it's it's kind of like inverse stoicism.

当你设法把一切事情都变成负面的，你就把自己与发生在你身上的好事隔绝开了。

You're you're you're insulated from the good things happening to you when you manage to turn everything into something negative.

我有一篇小文章，曾经引用过你的话，我想读给你听，它叫《弗兰克尔的逆定律》。

So I had a little essay that I quoted you in that I wanted to I wanted to read to you, and it's called Frankel's inverse law.

当一个人找不到深层的意义时，他们会用快乐来分散注意力。

When a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure.

这是维克多·弗兰克尔的观点。

That's Viktor Frankel.

弗兰克尔认为，缺乏意义会让人转向肤浅的追求，以寻求暂时的解脱，而不是直面深层的存在空虚。

Frankel is arguing that a lack of meaning causes people to seek temporary relief in superficial pursuits rather than addressing the underlying existential void.

或许对许多人，甚至大多数人来说，这是一个大问题。

Perhaps for many, maybe even most people, this is a big issue.

但还有一群人面临着相反的问题，即弗兰克尔的逆定律。

But there is another group who suffer with the opposite problem, Frankel's inverse law.

当一个人无法找到深层的愉悦时，他们会用意义来分散注意力。

When a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning.

如果轻松、优雅、快乐和玩乐对你来说并不容易，一个解决办法就是完全忽视当下的幸福，只专注于追求艰难的事物。

If ease, grace, joy, and playfulness don't come easily to you, one solution is to ignore moment to moment happiness entirely and just always pursue hard things.

你成了赢得棉花糖测试的世界冠军。

You become a world champion at winning the marshmallow test.

你说服自己，永久地延迟满足是高尚的，因为你很难感受到感恩。

You convince yourself that delayed gratification in perpetuity is noble because you struggle to ever feel grateful.

简而言之，你把意义置于幸福之上，因为幸福对你来说来之不易。

The TLDR is you prioritize meaning over happiness because happiness doesn't come easily to you.

哦，我喜欢这个观点。

Oh, I love that.

并且对此感到被挑战。

And feel confronted, by it.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白你的意思。

You've got I've got your line.

那段话比这长得多，我不想让你听完整的版本。

It's it's significantly longer than that, I didn't wanna subject you to the whole thing.

但我最喜欢你的一句话是：你现在至少要做一点你关心的事，而不是指望将来有时间再做。

But one of my favorite lines, paragraphs from you is you need to do at least a bit of what you care about now as opposed to banking on finding time for it in the future.

一旦任务清空、生活责任结束，生活责任永远不会真正结束。

Once the decks are clear and life's duties are out of the way, life's duties will never be out of the way.

所以，如果你真心想写一本小说、多陪陪年迈的父母、对抗气候变化，或者单纯地享受乐趣，迟早你得真正开始去做。

And so if you really mean it when you say you'd like to write a novel or spend more time with your aging parents or fighting climate change or having fun, at some point, you're just going to have to start doing it.

我认为，对于那些难以感受到轻松、优雅、喜悦和当下幸福的人来说，他们已经学会了一种效率较低但更可靠的策略：那就是去做困难的事，因为满足感总能实现，即使快乐难以获得。

And I think that's the the the category of people for whom ease, grace, joy, moment to moment happiness are more difficult to access, they have learned that a lower efficiency but higher reliability fuel is to just do hard things because the sense of satisfaction can kind of always be achieved even if the sense of joy can't.

这真的很有趣。

That's really interesting.

我喜欢你文中使用的‘优雅’这个词，这对我来说也很有意思，因为我觉得确实如此。

And I love your use of the word grace in the bit that you wrote is kind of is kind of really interesting to me as well because I think there is.

我可能稍微转变了一下话题，或者说是延伸了这个话题，但这里面还有一个方面，也涉及到完全活在头脑和理智中，与真正身体力行地存在于世界之间的区别。

I'm slightly changing the subject maybe or developing the subject, but there's but there's a there's an aspect to this which is also which also maps onto the distinction between, like, living entirely in your head and in your intellect versus being kind of embodied in the world.

对吧？

Right?

因为享受生活、积极参与其中，很大一部分是身体力行的，哪怕只是最基础的层面，比如当你身处某个地方时，能感受到空气拂过皮肤。

Because a big part of enjoying life and showing up for things is is embodied, you know, even just in the most basic sense of, like, like, feeling the air on your skin when you're present in a a

比如喝咖啡时，是慢慢品味，而不是为了尽快摄入咖啡因，而用尽可能高的温度吞下去。

place a coffee as opposed to using it at the maximum possible survivable temperature in order to get the caffeine into your system.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，是的，我认为另一个体现我们所说的这种不安全感驱动的完美主义者的特点，也确实是我个人经历的一部分，而且我在各处都能看到，就是极度沉浸在自己的头脑中，不仅一味追求未来，还假设唯一的方式就是通过认知来推动，活在你的前额皮质里，或者说是这种非常特定的感觉。

And so, yes, I think another thing that, you know, that characterizes these insecure overachievers of which we speak and that has definitely been, like, part of my biography, and I see it all over the place as well, is is being really sort of in your head and really sort of not only driving towards the future, but assuming that the only way to but but that doing the driving through sort of cognition and living in your frontal cortex or whatever, this very specific feeling.

我觉得你能看出这一点。

And I think you sort of see it.

随着我年纪渐长，对自己所做之事有了更多经验，我开始能察觉到人们身上——有时甚至是公众人物身上的这种特质。

I I feel like as I've got a bit older and more experience with what I've been doing, you sort of I sort of pick up on it in people and kind of public figures sometimes.

对吧？

Right?

不是我认识的那些人，但这种感觉就是，我们不只是冲向未来，而是某种程度上用思考把自己拖向未来。

Not people I know personally, but it is this kind of it's not just like we're charging into the future, but we're sort of dragging ourselves into the future by our by our thinking in some way.

而在这一点上，记住你也是一个身体，这一点至关重要。当然，你可能会因为某种原因过度关注身体，比如追求外表、极端的健身 obsession 之类的，但这些同样也是关于

And and it is there is something crucial about remembering that you're a that you're a body as well when it comes to of course, you can then be sort of obsessed with the body for reasons of, like, you know, look smack thing or or kind of really obsessive kinds of physical fitness or whatever that are just as much about

嗯。

Mhmm.

未来的进步。

The future progress.

我认为这两类人之间的交集比你想象的要大得多，这就是为什么在现代世界中，那种愚蠢的健身狂和戴着眼镜、从不举重的极度强迫型艺术家，这两种形象的维恩图已经越来越重合了。

I think the crossover the the the crossover between those people is is way bigger than you might think, which is why the in the modern world, the kind of dumb gym rat versus the hyper obsessive artist with glasses that doesn't lift, those Venn diagrams have gotten closer and closer together.

对。

Right.

因为对控制的渴望，是的。

Because the desire for control in Yeah.

认知世界已经渗透到身体世界，反之亦然。

The cerebral world has moved into the physical world as well, and and and the reverse has happened too.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你说得对，人们希望如此。

I I I think you're right to say people hope for.

他们想要这样。

They want this.

我让生活发生，这很美好。

I I make life happen, and that's beautiful.

能动性。

Agency.

我的朋友乔治·麦克正在撰写一本关于能动性的开创性著作，这书一定会非常出色。

My friend George Mac is writing what will be the seminal book on agency right now, and it's gonna be fantastic.

我认为我本人极其重视能动性，也崇尚高度的能动性，但能动性的艺术也有其限度，我想你可以这么说——学会何时只需顺应既定的轨道。

And I think I I massively value agency and high agency in my own life, but there is a a limit to the art of agency, I guess you could say, like learning when to just be able to be on a set of guardrails.

我想说，我甚至会非常积极地去读这本书，因为我想强调的并不是能动性本身有多好，而是到了某个阶段，你必须意识到，能动性和控制感在某种根本意义上是不同的东西。

Well, I wanna say even I'm gonna read that book very energetically because I want to say that it's not so much that agency's great and all, but there comes a point where you have to I think it's that agency and control are in some sense fundamentally different things.

就我的经验而言，我越是能放下对控制的执念，就越能获得我所认为的能动性、力量或类似的东西。

That my experience anyway has been that to whatever extent I can relax the need for control, that's the extent to which I kind of acquire what I think of as agency or power or something.

对吧？

Right?

当我在生活中努力确保一切按我设想的方向发展，试图将现实扭曲成我认定的方向——而这种认定源于某种深层、隐秘的情感需求时，

It's like when I'm going through my life trying to make sure that it goes the way I think I need it to go, trying to bend reality in the direction that I've decided that for a fundamentally deep, buried emotional reasons, right, I need it to go.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我实际上感到有些无力。

I'm actually sort of disempowered.

我某种程度上被束缚在

I'm I'm kind of chained to

你很脆弱。

Well, you're fragile.

某种程度上是的。

Kind of

你非常脆弱。

You're very fragile.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

而且再说一遍，也许不是每个人都是这样，但当我并不觉得自己的基本价值需要某些事情发生时，我就能够开始行动了。

And and again, maybe it's not everybody, but I've when I when I don't need when I don't absolutely feel like my basic worth needs something to happen, like, that's when I can get doing.

那就是当我

That's when I

可以停止做事，完全投入其中。

can stop doing fully lean into it.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是那就是

That's that's

价值？不。

worth No.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

这太棒了。

That's wonderful.

所以，是的。

So I yeah.

我认为，我认为代理权并不一定需要有任何限制。

I think I think I don't think there necessarily needs to be any limit to agency.

我们只需要认识到并欣赏这种代理权与那种基于控制和支配的冲动无关，而那种冲动总是有其他目的，而不仅仅是出于创造和建设的快乐。

We just need to see and appreciate the sense in which it isn't to do with sort of this kind of, this kind of control domination based urge, which has another agenda always than just creating and building for the joy of doing so.

如果你因为身体太热或太冷而难以入睡，这个产品会帮到你。

If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help.

Eight Sleep 刚刚发布了他们的全新 Pod Five，其中包含了世界上首个温控被子。

Eight Sleep just released their brand new Pod five, which includes the world's first temperature regulating duvet.

将其与他们能将床的两侧调温多达20度的智能床垫罩相比，你就拥有了一种为深度、不间断睡眠打造的恒温环境。

Compare it with their smart mattress cover, which cools or warms each side of the bed up to 20 degrees, and you've got a climate controlled cocoon built for deep, uninterrupted rest.

新的底座甚至内置了扬声器，让你可以听着白噪音、自然音效，或者如果你喜欢的话，听点轻柔的泰勒·斯威夫特入眠。

The new base even comes with a built in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise, nature sounds, or little ambient Taylor Swift, if that's your thing.

它还升级了生物传感器，每晚安静地进行健康监测，发现如异常心率、呼吸中断或HRV突然变化等模式，这也是为什么它已被临床证明每晚可将总睡眠时间增加多达一小时。

And it's got upgraded biometric sensors that quietly run health checks every night, spotting patterns like abnormal heartbeats, disrupted breathing, or sudden changes in HRV, which is why it has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night.

最重要的是，他们提供30天睡眠试用期，你可以购买并使用29晚。

Best of all, they've got a thirty day sleep trial, you can buy it and sleep on it for twenty nine nights.

如果你不喜欢，他们会全额退款，而且支持国际配送。

And if you don't like it, they will give you your money back, plus they ship internationally.

现在，通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问 Eight Sleep 网站并使用代码 Modern Wisdom 结账，你可以最多节省350美元购买Pod Five。

Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod five by going to the link in the description below or heading to Eight Sleep dot com slash Modern Wisdom using the code Modern wisdom at checkout.

网址是 eightsleep.com/modernwisdom，结账时使用 Modern Wisdom 这个代码。

That's eightsleep.com/modernwisdom, and Modern Wisdom at checkout.

不断质疑自己是否过着最好的生活，这种代价是什么？

What is the cost of constantly asking whether or not you're living your best life?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我的意思是，最明显的是，这其实是在邀请你去接受当下真实的生活，而不是把它和你幻想中所谓的“理想生活”作比较。

I mean, most obviously, I suppose it's just that that is that's that's an invitation to find your life as it is right now wanting as opposed as compared to some fantasy that you have of what your best life would be.

我对所谓“最好的生活”这个概念相当怀疑。

I'm quite suspicious of the notion of of a best life.

这让我想到充分实现潜能这个概念。

It reminds me of the notion of sort of fully realizing your potential.

对吧？

Right?

这些都是一些概念。

These are these are concepts.

它们并不是现实，而且这些概念还带有某种绝对的、没有终点的特性。

They're not they're not they're not reality, and they're also concepts that have this kind of absolute no no stopping rule.

对吧？

Right?

没有限制。

No no limit.

比如，你可能正在做着人类历史上最了不起的事情，但你却无法客观地知道自己的潜能是否已经最大化，或者这是否就是你最好的人生，更无法确定有没有更好的可能。

Like, you can you could be doing absolutely the most amazing things in the history of the world, and you'd have no objective way to know that you had maximized your potential or that it was your best life, and there couldn't be one better.

所以，也许我对你这个问题理解得太字面了。

So maybe I'm taking your question too literally.

不。

No.

我确实这么想。

I do.

你真的在问这个问题。

Really are asking that.

你最终就会落到这个地步。

That's where you're gonna end up.

几周前，我看到一位传播学教授发的一条非常有趣的推文，里面是她的一个片段。

There's a really interesting tweet that I saw a couple of weeks ago by this lady who's a communications professor, and it is a clip of her.

她谈到，被低估是一种赞美，而被高估则是一种侮辱。

And she was talking about how being underrated is a compliment, but being overrated is an insult.

如果你仔细想想，你实际上是在说：为什么没有达到人们预期的受欢迎程度反而会是一种赞美？

And how if you actually think about that, what you're saying is why would not being as popular as you're supposed to be be a compliment?

为什么说你在能力和成就上远远超出预期，其实都只是社会信号而已。

And why would be why would being basically an overachiever with regards to your capacity and it's it's all just social signaling.

这所有的一切，只是作为旁观者的你，能够察觉到别人身上未被他人认可的特质，无论是在正面还是负面意义上。

It's all just you being able to say as the observer, I'm the sort of person that is able to detect in another that which hasn't been recognized by other people on both sides.

比如，当别人都觉得某人不错时，我知道他们其实是在装腔作势；或者当别人都还没发现时，我知道某人其实非常出色。

Like, I know that they're full of shit when actually people think they're good, or I know that they're actually brilliant when no one else has realized it yet.

是的。

And Yes.

这种现象其实也发生在我们对自己潜力的评判上。

That is kind of happening with our own judgments of our potential.

我们所说的是，我根据自己认为能做什么，来估算自己应该达到的位置。

That what we're saying is I have an estimation of where I should be based on what I think I can do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我觉得自己能做什么，完全是凭空想象出来的，就像你说的，这是一种幻想，因为

But the what I think I can do is plucked out of complete fucking obscurity, and it is, like you say, a fantasy because

嗯。

Mhmm.

什么

What

这是一个很好的问题，我有时会问自己，当我过于自我批评时：你还能做些什么？

this is a good question that I sometimes ask myself if I get too self critical, which is what else could you have done?

为了缓解你内心当前涌动的那些深深的不足感，你本可以做些什么你没做的事？

What else could you have done that you didn't do in order to assuage whatever deep feelings of insufficiency are currently swimming through you?

比如，你本还可以做些什么？

Like, what else what else would you have done?

当你真正去细想时，你会说：天啊。

And when you actually go through it, you're like, fuck me.

我的意思是，我周二本可以早半小时睡觉，那样我就能完成了，但说实话，我其实只是在边缘挣扎。

Like, mean, I could have gone to bed half an hour earlier on Tuesday, and then that would have meant I could have got it, but I'm really you know, I'm playing in the margins here.

我真的、真的、真的已经尽力了。

I'd I really I really I really gave it a good shot.

当你问自己：我还能做些什么？

And just when you ask, what else could I have done?

根据我的经验，你会发现可能并没有太多可以做的。

You in my experience, you find out probably not that much.

我大概已经做了我能力范围内的所有事情。

I I I I probably did pretty close to what I'm capable of.

再说，我什么时候跟你提过什么A类问题、B类问题的事情了？

And, again, what was have I ever done my type a people, type b problems thing to you?

我给你提过这个吗？

Have I given you this one?

没什么印象。

It's not ringing a bell.

哦。

Oh.

所以可能没有吧。

So maybe not.

天啊。

God.

让我给你看看，哦。

Let me give you Oh.

让我给你这个。

Let me give you this.

我的意思是，这个是

I mean, this is

我感到很兴奋。

I'm excited.

我的意思是，我从像你和阿兰·德波顿这样的人身上获得的灵感真的毫不掩饰，但这个是我最棒的创意之一，它源于我和乔治的一次对话。

Am I am just so shameless with how much I get inspired by people like you and Alain de Botton, but this this is one of my best ones, and this this came out of a conversation between me and George.

我认为A类人有B类问题，而B类人有A类问题。

I think type a people have a type b problem, and type b people have a type a problem.

不安全感强的完美主义者需要学会放松和淡定，而懒惰的人则需要学会更加努力并保持自律。

Insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and relax, and lazy people need to learn how to work harder and be disciplined.

既然你订阅了我，我猜你大概属于A类人。

Given that you subscribe to me, I'm gonna guess you're probably type a.

正如安德鲁·威尔金森所说，这是一种被用于提升效率的行走式焦虑症。

Some version of a walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity, as Andrew Wilkinson says.

这里有一件事，你可能已经意识到了。

Here's the thing you may have already realized.

患有B类问题的A类人很少得到同情，因为一个痛苦但外表成功的人，总是看起来比一个满足于懒惰却濒临破产的人处境优越得多。

Type a people with a type b problem get very little sympathy because a miserable but outwardly successful person always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a content being lazy, but on the verge of bankruptcy one.

机会型问题永远比匮乏型问题更少得到同情。

Problems of opportunity will always get less sympathy than ones of scarcity.

一个感觉像是选择，另一个则感觉像是限制。

One feels like a choice, the other like a limitation.

一个是资产阶级的奢侈，另一个是系统性的强加。

One is a bourgeois luxury, the other is a systemic imposition.

我需要有人教我如何自律、更加努力工作，这听起来高尚、积极向上且充满善意。

I need someone to teach me how to be disciplined and work harder feels noble, upward aiming, and charitable.

我需要有人教我如何关掉开关、放松下来，这听起来却像多巴胺成瘾、放纵且奢侈。

I need someone to teach me how to switch off and relax feels dopaminergic, addicted, and opulent.

每一部逆袭电影里都有一个主角通过更加努力工作来整理生活的训练片段。

Every underdog movie ever has a training montage of someone sorting their life out by working harder.

但没有一部电影会展现一个人学会在下午六点退出Slack，或终于享受一次海滩假期。

None included a guy learning how to log out of slack at 6PM or finally enjoy a beach holiday.

所以，是的，A型人群客观上可能生活得更好，但主观上，他们却被一种‘永远不够努力’的感觉折磨着。

So, yes, type a people may objectively have better lives, but subjectively, they're ravaged by the sense that they've never done enough.

他们每天早上醒来都觉得自己已经落后了，只有全天完美掌控一切，才能勉强恢复到最低可接受的产出水平，从而在晚上入睡时不至于觉得自己是个失败者。

They wake up every morning feeling as if they've already fallen behind, and only if they dominate their entire day flawlessly will they have dragged themselves back up to some minimum level of acceptable output, which means they can go to sleep that night without feeling like a loser.

恭喜你。

Congratulations.

你可能非常成功，但也可能非常痛苦。

You might be very successful, but you also might be very miserable.

再努力一点吧，兄弟。

Just work harder, bro.

建议。

Advice.

它可靠地让每个人在唯一能被外界评判的方式上变得更加成功。

Reliably makes everyone more successful in the only way they can be judged, outwardly.

生活中几乎没有多少问题不能通过更努力工作来解决，因此每个人都把它当作万能药，而不是一个专为特定目的设计的工具。

There are very few issues in life which can't be solved by just working harder, so everyone treats it as a panacea, not a purpose built tool.

平均而言，或许更多人需要听到戴维·戈金斯在他们面前大喊着要更拼命，而不是艾克哈特·托勒在他们耳边轻声说：你已经足够好了。

And on average, maybe more people do need to hear David Goggins screaming in their face to go harder than Eckhart Tolle whispering in their ear that they are enough already.

但对于某一类，或许属于少数群体的人来说，他们实际上需要听到相反的信息。

But for a certain, perhaps, minority cohort of people, they actually need to hear the opposite message.

我们需要一个副交感神经版的戈金斯，他会拿着电视遥控器和奇多薯片。

We need a parasympathetic Goggins who's going to carry the TV remote and the Cheetos.

#休息得比我还狠。

Hashtag rest harder than me.

B类问题和A类问题一样棘手，但它们需要的解决方案却远不那么吸引人。

Type b problems are just as tough as type a ones, but they require a much less sexy solution.

一种平静，你无法仅仅通过更努力工作来获得。

Peace, one that you can't actually achieve by simply working harder.

不错。

Nice.

我同意。

I agree.

我同意。

I agree.

我同意。

I agree.

我也有这些问题。

I have those problems.

我曾经有过这些问题。

I have had those problems.

你知道吗？

You know what?

这还让我想到一件事，就在你读这些话的时候冒出来——挺有意思的，这里其实也存在一种奇怪的选择偏差，对吧？

It also makes me something that would came up in the middle of listening to you read that, which is lovely, is there's like a weird selection bias problem here as well, isn't there?

也就是说，那些被拼命工作、自我惩罚、越努力越好的理念吸引的人，从定义上讲，恰恰是那些不需要这种信息的人。

Which is that the, see if I can express this, the people who are drawn to the hard charging

是的。

Mhmm.

这种诱惑会让人们去追求这些信息，阅读这类书籍、观看这些视频，因为他们已经深陷于这种观念，认为这就是他们所需要的，还觉得需要更多这样的‘燃料’来推动自己。

Self punishing, you know, work harder stuff are gonna be pretty much by definition the people who don't for whom that message is something they don't need.

对吧？

Right?

这种诱惑会让人们去追求这些信息，阅读这类书籍、观看这些视频，因为他们已经深陷于这种观念，认为这就是他们所需要的，还觉得需要更多这样的‘燃料’来推动自己。

That that The temptation is gonna be for people to pursue those messages and consume that kind of stuff, read those books, watch those videos, because they're already, like, in too deep with the idea that that's what they need to do and they need more sort of fuel to to help their sort of driving of themselves.

而很可能恰恰相反，那些本来就比较放松、喜欢放松的人，会大量消费放松类的内容。

And probably the reverse is true, right, which is that people who are kind of already pretty relaxed and into relaxation are gonna be consuming a lot of relaxing content.

所以这简直就像民主一样。

So it's almost like, you know, it's like democracy.

掌权的人，恰恰就是那些不该掌权的人，之类的。

The the people who get into power are exactly the ones who shouldn't be in power or whatever.

就像那些最需要放松的人，反而最容易接受那种

It's like the people who people who really need to relax are going to be the most prone to consuming the message that

你就是不停地激活我的陷阱卡，全都被你激活了。

they just need to You you just you you keep fucking activating my trap cards, all of them.

我不能再念给你另一篇论文了，但这确实证明了我们之间有多么超凡的联系。

I can't read you another I can't read you another essay, but it does go to show how astrally fucking connected we are.

我会发给你。

I did I I I'll just send you it.

好的。

Yeah.

我会发给你，你之后再看。

I'll send you it, and you can read it afterwards.

请发吧。

Please do.

如果有人想读，这篇文章叫《过度反应者建议》，他们可以直接在我的博客上搜索。

If if anyone wants to read it, it's called advice hyper responders, and and they can just search it on my on my blog.

哦，你又来了。

Oh, there you go.

是的。

Yeah.

那个标题让我觉得，这个标题表明了

That the the title the the title shows me that that is

基本上，最需要这种药物的人反而不服用，而那些很可能过量服用的人已经摄入过多了。

Basic basically, the the people who most need the medicine don't take it, and the people who are likely to overdose have taken too much already.

对。

Yes.

我认为最能说明这一点的例子，至今依然成立，就是‘别太主动’这个建议——它让那些其实需要更多自信去接近女性的男性认真对待，而那些一直无视界限的家伙则完全置之不理。

And, you know, the the the most spicy example of this that I think still holds true was around me Too, which was telling men don't be pushy caused men who really could have actually done with a bit more confidence around women to take it to heart, while the guys that were just blowing through boundaries all along disregarded it entirely.

所以，建议并不会被人们平等接受。

So advice is not taken evenly by people.

它只会放大他们原有的恐惧、倾向和世界观。

It it amplifies their existing fears and predispositions and worldview.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

而且，这也是一种观点，我不会试图成功引用诗人的话，但这种观点认为，最糟糕的人充满激情，而最好的人却缺乏信念。

It's, and it's also the idea that the I'm not gonna try and quote successfully quote poets live, but it's the idea that the worst people are full of intensity and best lack all conviction.

对吧？

Right?

这是同样的事情。

It's the same thing.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

无论那来自哪里。

Wherever that comes from.

这就是为什么，你知道，我不会假装我写的任何一本书里都有一种什么策略，但有时我回头想想，有一两个人告诉我，我可能在做一些事情时，无意中进行了一种有益且启发性的诱饵与开关——也就是说，有时候我觉得，它吸引的是那些认为自己需要更多时间管理建议之类东西的人。

Well, this is why, you know, I'm not gonna pretend that it was some sort of strategy in any of the books that I've written, but I do sometimes think in hindsight, and one or two people have said it to me, that I am that I might be performing some kind of useful and edifying bait and switch in some of the stuff I do in the sense that, like, sometimes I think it appeals to people who think what they need is more time management advice or something like that.

然后，如果有效的话，我会从内部彻底摧毁他们的世界观。

And then I sort of, you know, if it works, completely destroy their worldview from the inside.

让他们在虚假的多巴胺感觉中放松警惕，然后抽走地毯，是的。

Lull them in under a false sense of dopamine and then pull the rug out from yeah.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

所以这是一个很好的观点，我最近一直在思考两件事，尤其是过去大约十八个月左右，也就是自从我们上次交谈以来。

And so the it's a a good point to make, and I there's two things that I've been thinking about recently, especially over the last maybe eighteen months or so, which is since the last time that me and you spoke.

我真的努力踏上了一段旅程，部分受到你的启发，部分受到阿兰的启发，部分受到乔·哈德森和我心理治疗的启发，就是想：好吧。

I have really fucking tried to go on a journey partly inspired by you, partly inspired by Aland, partly inspired by Joe Hudson and my therapy, and to be like, okay.

我能否把我所做的事情做到极致，并且享受它？

Can I be really good at what I do and and enjoy it?

我能否以高标准进行创作，却不紧抓生活不放？

Can I try and produce at a high standard and not grip life too tightly?

在放弃确定性、控制权等这一旅程中，出现了两个问题。

And one of the problems of that this journey of relinquishing of certainty and control and all the rest of it, there's two things that have happened.

首先，我不得不公开说出一些听起来与我过去言论相矛盾的话。

First off, I've had to publicly say things that sound like they're in disagreement with something that I previously said.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我说过‘加油，兄弟’这类建议，像‘别管你的感受’这种话，我肯定在某个时候说过。

Me saying that, just work harder, bro, advice, a sentence that I've almost certainly said at some point, like, fuck your feelings.

继续坚持下去。

Just keep going.

诸如此类的话。

Blah blah blah.

这感觉像是相当多的评论。

That feels like non insignificant number of comments.

意思是，兄弟先卖给我们一个问题，现在又在卖我们解决方案。

It's something to the effect of, bro sold us the problem, and now he's selling us the solution.

我就想说，你看。

And I'm like, well, look.

如果我真的这么做了，那我也把自己给卖了，因为我当时是相信的。

If if I did if I did do that, I fucking sold it to myself as well because I believed it.

所以，我道歉，我为此道歉。

So I I apologize I apologize for that.

但话说回来，当时我从未说过这是生活的唯一方式。

That also being said, at the time, I've never said this is the way to live your life.

这只是我目前在尝试的东西。

Like, this is what I'm playing with at the moment.

我觉得我已经反复强调过，别他妈拼命硬撑着非要达成这个目标。

And I think I've caveated a lot around, like, don't just fucking end yourself trying to get this done.

所以，这是第一点。

So that's the first thing.

第一点是，你会面临大量的批评，我觉得。

The first thing is that you've you end up with a lot of criticism, I think.

你会因为所提出的这种修辞和哲学而受到更多批评，因为它听起来不像从低能动性转向高能动性，

You end up with more criticism being giving the sort of rhetoric philosophy that you do because it sounds it doesn't sound like going from low agency to high agency.

而更像是从高能动性转向低能动性。

It sounds like going from high agency to low agency.

而‘只是努力工作、更紧地抓住它’这种建议显然更简洁有力，而我的频道很大程度上正是围绕这类比喻构建的。

And, like, the obviousness of just work the the the sort of just work harder, grip it more tightly advice is so much more pithy, and much of my channel is being built on, you know, analogies analogies of that in the the orbit around that sort of thing.

第二点，这要难得多，也是我非常想了解你是否经历过的问题，我认为很多观众也在面对这个问题：当你试图经历这一切时，会彻底失去自我一致性，尤其是如果你已经把自己的身份深深绑定在‘拼命奋斗者’这个角色上。

The second thing, and this is way fucking harder, and this is something that I'm really interested to find out whether you had to deal with, and I think a lot of the audience are dealing with too, is a complete loss of congruence as a person as you try and go through this, especially if you've made you've wrapped a lot of your identity in being the hard charger.

我能把事情搞定。

I get things done.

我了解我自己。

I know me.

我在现实世界中获得的结果，都是因为我付出了行动。

The outcomes I get in the real world are because I do things.

我晚上睡觉时，脑子里想的都是要做的事情。

I I go to bed on nighttime, and I think about doing things.

我早上醒来，计划还是要做事情。

I wake up in the morning, and my plan is to do things.

你看，想法、意图、行动、目标、结果，全都一致。

Like, you know, thoughts, intentions, actions, goals, outcomes, they're all aligned.

不管你怎么评价特朗普、安德鲁·塔特，或者那个什么马曼尼，他们都是高度一致的人。

And say what you want about Trump or Andrew Tate or fucking Mamdani or whatever it is, but they are highly congruent people.

他们就是一条笔直的线，这就是为什么安德鲁·塔特最近在拳击比赛中输了。

Like, they are just a single line up and down, and this is why Andrew Tate recently lost a boxing fight.

这对他公众形象的打击特别大，因为之前他一直保持着非常一致的形象，现在却突然出现了一个格格不入的侧面。

That was why it was so damaging, I think, to some of his perception publicly because he had this sort of very congruent line, and there was now this thing that got slotted on the side.

这就像是你发现特朗普开始练冥想了一样。

It would be like if you found out that Trump had started doing meditation or something.

你会想：这跟他的整体一致性不符啊。

You go, well, this doesn't fit the congruence Right.

这正是我们所预期的。

That we expect.

或者如果你发现马曼尼私下拥有一大堆面包店之类的东西。

Or if you found out that Mamdani secretly owned a bunch of, like, bakeries or something.

就像它根本无法融入我的世界观。

It's like it just doesn't I can't slot it in to to my sort of worldview.

并且经历这一切。

And going through this.

我真心相信，在放手之后的另一端，存在着某种东西，这是一段我将努力踏上的人生旅程。

I truly believe that there is something on the other side of letting go, and that is a journey that I'm gonna try and go on.

但当你这样做的时候，你的现实成果可能会暂时变差，甚至在相当长的一段时间内如此，因为你必须放弃之前使用的某些策略，直到你掌握新的方法。

But as you do that, your real world results briefly and maybe even for actually a medium, a pretty significant chunk of time, get a little bit worse because you've got to relinquish some of the strategies that you were using previously before you've got mastery in the new ones.

是的。

Yeah.

你说了这么多，谈论的是融入情绪、顺其自然以及学会去。

You're saying all of this stuff and you're talking about embodying emotions and just going with the flow and learning to.

从外部看，你看起来并不是进化成了一个全新开悟的人，反而像是倒退回到了你十年前好不容易才挣脱出来的状态。

And from the outside, what it looks like is not that you've evolved into this newly enlightened, but it looks like you've devolved back to the thing that you tried to only just get escape velocity from a fucking decade ago.

因此，这种批评与内在一致性之间的脱节，是我过去十八个月更真诚地尝试践行这一点时所感受到的两个方面。

So this this loss of congruence between criticism and congruence, those are the two things that I felt in the last eighteen months since sort of trying to embody this a little bit more honestly.

这真的很有趣。

That's really interesting.

我的意思是，批评这一点似乎在某种程度上具有职业特定性。

I mean, the criticism one feels somewhat kind of professionally specific.

对吧？

Right?

因为你？

Because you're oh?

是的。

Yeah.

这有点奇怪，好吧。

It's a strange okay.

批评这一方面感觉像中风了一样。

The the criticism one having feels a stroke.

中风。

A stroke.

这跟你在开始和结束时的忽隐忽现完全没关系。

You're It's nothing to do with the fading in and out at the beginning of the end for you.

这就是你的状态。

This is how you go.

真棒。

Lovely.

嗯，这是一场有趣的对话。

Well, it's, you know, having an interesting conversation.

还有更糟的方式呢。

There's worse there's worse way.

这显然是一个与职业相关的问题。

That's obviously a professionally specific thing.

我的经历有点不同，早在职业生涯早期，我就以一种略带讽刺的方式谈论那些与自我帮助相关的话题，后来我逐渐转向了更真诚的态度，而这确实也会让你在某种程度上面临类似的批评。

And I had a slightly different journey in that I was being sort of sarcastic about sarcastic in public for about sort of self help related things from an early point in my career and then became went on a sort of journey towards more sincerity, which does leave you open to some of the same criticisms to some extent.

对吧？

Right?

就像你说的，这一切都是胡说八道。

It's like you said this is all rubbish and that.

我经常被问到的问题是：你早年一直在批评自我帮助领域的导师，但现在你自己却成了一个自我帮助导师，这是怎么发生的？

Like the question I've been asked a lot is like, you spent lots of your earlier career criticizing self help gurus, but now you've become a self help guru.

这到底是怎么发生的？

How did that happen?

但我觉得，这两种批评都不太准确。

And it's like, I don't think either of the arms of that criticism are quite accurate.

不过，这都是另一回事了。

But anyway, that's a separate matter.

我觉得这种不一致的地方其实是个很有趣的观点。

I think the incongruence thing is really an interesting point.

我认为，是的，我们似乎都在经历的过程，就是必须愿意放弃那些已经完成使命的策略。

And I do think that, yes, the the process that sounds like we're sort of both on is one way you have to kind of be willing to move away from strategies that have served their time.

从某种定义上讲，这正是中年危机最初、最值得尊敬的含义。

And in one definition, right, that is the original, highly respectable definition of a midlife crisis.

对吧？

Right?

不是那种糟糕的问题，比如开始行为失控、举止怪异，而是指你从成年早期转向成年后期，那些曾经帮助你在这个世界上立足、或者最终——正如治疗师会说的——让你与原生家庭和父母分离、成为真正独立的成年人的那些方式，不再有效了。

Not some kind of terrible problem where you start acting out and being weird, but just where you shift from the first part of adulthood to the second part of adulthood and things that you use to get yourself established in the world or to ultimately, the therapist would say, to sort of separate off from your family of origin and your parents, right, and become sort of fully fully existing individual adult human, they stop they stop working.

它们不再能带你走完全程，无法再助你深入理解生活、理解自己，以及人际关系中无尽的迷人与困境，嗯。

They they they they're no longer the they're not gonna get you all the way through the process of sort of coming to or or further along through the process of coming to sort of understand life and yourself and the endless fascinations and difficulties of relationships with other human beings and Mhmm.

还有其他所有那些事情。

And all the rest of it.

我认为，正如你所说的，如果一个人从青年成年到晚年始终完全保持一致，这简直是一场灾难。

And I think, you know, I think an argument could probably be made that kind of that remaining completely congruent, as you put it, all the way through your life and from early adulthood through to late adulthood is like a disaster.

我觉得这根本不值得庆祝，因为我知道，我们身边都有一些人，也许你没有，但我认识一些人。

Like, I think that's kind of a I don't think that's anything to be celebrated at all, because I think, you know, we all do know people who seem, maybe we don't do, I mean, I know people.

我们认识一些人，他们心理状态的年龄与所处的人生阶段不匹配

We know people who are stuck in sort of the wrong age for the psychological outlook that they have in

性行业。

a sex trade.

嗯，

Well,

有些人到了五六十岁，行为举止却还像二十多岁的人一样，这显然有些不对劲。

people who are sort of, you know, there's something amiss about people who are acting at in their late fifties in who seem to have the attitude of some aspects of the attitude of being in your late twenties.

对吧？

Right?

并不一定是指某种特定的生活方式选择。

Not necessarily any particular lifestyle choice.

我不是说每个人都必须在六十岁前就结婚安定、有成年子女。

I'm not saying everyone's got to be, like, married and settled down and with adult children by the age of six.

根本不是那回事。

It's nothing like that.

只是那种感觉几乎难以言表，有点太对了。

It's just that sort of there's something almost hard to put into words that is a bit too sort of right.

他们过于执着于在世界上确立自己的地位之类的。

They're sort of too intent on establishing themselves in the world or something.

他们太过于执着于，呃，没错。

They're too intent on too intent on sort of yeah.

我觉得，我觉得这是一种，我觉得那里确实有些不对劲。

I think that I think that is a kind of a I think that is a some there's something there's something kind of wrong about that.

另一方面，你知道，永远都不算晚，人们会走上任何他们需要的路去经历中年危机。

On the other hand, you know, it's never too late and people go whatever route they need to go to get to their midlife crisis.

詹姆斯·霍利斯，我想我们俩都十分推崇他的作品，这位荣格派心理治疗师有一段非常精彩的论述，说的是真正好的治疗的目标，是让你的生活对你自己变得更有趣，而广阔的世界却对此视而不见。

James Hollis, who I know we both are admirers of of the work of, I think, the Jungian psychotherapist has this whole very excellent kind of riff about how the goal of the goal of really good therapy is to like make your life more interesting to you and how and how the the wide the wide world just sees this as like nothing.

像什么？人生中竟然把变得越来越对生活感兴趣当作目标，这多么可悲啊。

Like, what a pathetic goal in life to to to to have a to to become more and more interested in in being alive.

但他指出，你知道，这其实就是整个游戏的核心。

But he says, like, you know, he makes the point that really that's like, that's the whole game.

心理治疗能做到的最多就是如此，但这也正是你过上充实而有意义生活的全部所需。

It's the most that psychotherapy can do, but it's also it's also all you all you need for absorbing a meaningful and fulfilling life.

我觉得这需要一种这样的改变和发展。

It's sorta and I think it's that requires this kind of change and development.

我现在有点说得太多了。

And I'm sort of going on and on now.

你可以把这段剪掉。

You can cut this out.

但不行。

But No.

这很棒。

It's great.

你刚才说的那部分也让我很有共鸣，就是——不。

The bit that the bit of what you said as well that resonated with me, like, no.

我最近经历了一段时期，连续几周都觉得自己完全无法工作，对自己的人生方向感到极度迷茫，状态也糟糕透顶，当我用最简单的语言描述这些时，听起来就像我正在经历抑郁一样。

I have quite recently gone through phases of feeling like I'm completely unable to work for, like, weeks at a time, being completely, like, unclear about the direction I'm taking and, like, really sort of out of sorts in ways that when I describe them in very simple language, sounds like I was going through like a depression or something.