#1062 - 戴夫·埃文斯：是时候重新思考你的人生规划了

让我感到惊讶的是，从祖先的角度来看，活过40岁的情况越来越罕见。

Something that has struck me there is the fact that getting beyond 40 ancestrally would have been increasingly rare.

是的。

Yes.

死亡更常见。

And Death was more popular.

更频繁。

Well, more frequent.

我们说的是‘常见’，不是‘流行’。

What that what that suggests we didn't say popular.

对。

Yeah.

什么？

What

这表明，我们所面临的这些挑战不仅在进化上不匹配

that suggests is that this these challenges that we're facing were not only mismatched evolutionarily

对。

Right.

针对现代环境。

For the modern environment.

甚至从持续时间上看，是的。

Even durationally Yeah.

我们在当前环境下是不匹配的，是的。

We are mismatched Yeah.

针对我们当前的环境。

For our current environment.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以谈谈人口老龄化和出生率下降，以及。

And you you can talk about an aging population and birth rate decline and.

你可以深入讨论这些问题。

You can go into that stuff.

当然。

Sure.

但我认为更有趣的是，我们现有的适应性系统，甚至包括文化上的神话和原型，这究竟意味着什么？

But I think what's more interesting is that the adaptive systems that we have, even culturally myth, archetype, like, what does it mean?

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

如果达到五六十岁甚至七十岁是如此稀有的阶段

If if it's such a rarefied strata to get into 50, 60, 70 years old

是的。

Right.

在历史上，能够解释这一转变究竟如何发生的样本数量根本不够。

Where there's just not been a big enough sample size of people from history to be able to explain what that transition actually looks like.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

当然。

Sure.

但我觉得这实际上意味着，在过去，人们因为预计活不到50岁，所以早在三十五六岁到四十出头时就完成了这种转变。

But I think what it really means is, I mean, people made those transitions in their mid late thirties to early forties before because they're gonna die at 50.

而现在，这种转变发生的时间窗口被拉长了。

And now just the window of time during which that transition can occur has stretched.

是的。

Yeah.

而且发生了偏移。

And shifted.

而且发生了偏移。

And shifted.

所以现在人们正在加倍投入。

And so what's happening is people are doubling down.

你知道的？

You know?

所以，威廉·布里奇斯写了《过渡：理解人生重大变化》这本书。

So, William Bridges wrote the book Transitions Making Life Making Sense of Life's Big Changes.

所以，他在几十年前，作为一本八十年代的自助经典提出了这个观点。

So he posits years ago as an eighties self help classic.

这是一本好书，基于埃里克森的研究，认为变化是外在的、发生在你身上的现实。

It's a good book, based on Ericsson's work that changes are outside in realities that happen to you.

而过渡则是你内心管理这些变化的体验。

Transitions are the internal experience of managing them.

他的观察是，过渡分为三个阶段，而不是两个。

And his observation was that transitions are three steps, not two.

它不是简单的结束之后就是新的开始。

It's not an ending followed by a new beginning.

而是结束之后进入中性地带，然后再是新的开始。

It's an ending followed by the neutral zone followed by two.

你知道的，就是结束了，然后你迷失了，接着你重新找到了方向。

You know, it's over, then you're lost, and then you get refound.

但你并不是从‘已找到’直接跳到‘又找到’。

But you go you don't go from found to found.

这个观点太棒了。

Such a good point.

真的非常好。

That's so good.

如果你真的感到很舒适

If you're really comfortable

而且啊，我职业生涯延长了，还创办了第四家公司。

and and and oh, I've extended and had a longer career, and I'm I started my fourth company.

我是54岁的时候创办了生活设计实验室的。

Mean, I started the Life Design Lab at 54.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我的第四次创业，是在我七十多岁的时候。

And so and my my fourth startup, you know, in in my seventies.

你知道的？

You know?

这就像是，嘿。

It's kinda like, hey.

我喜欢这个。

I like this.

做我擅长且有效的事情，这种反馈循环真的让人很有成就感。

The feedback loop of doing stuff I'm good at and it works is really gratifying.

是的。

Yeah.

然后生活会说，对啊。

And then life kinda says, yeah.

让我们去迷失方向吧，去学习如何变得情绪化，感受一段时间的无能和笨拙。

Let's go let's go off and be confused for let's go learn how to be emotional and and and feel like an incompetent nincompoop for a while.

这其实很有吸引力。

Like, that's really attractive.

所以我经常看到人们做完一件事后，就会说：哦，我要去黑暗中待一阵子了。

So I see people all the time get to the end of something and then kinda go, oh, I'm gonna go into the darkness for a while.

我想我会回到清晰的状态。

I think I'll go back to the clarity.

所以我们只是重新开始。

So we we just reup.

我一个同龄的朋友，刚创办了他的第十二家公司。

Buddy of mine, my age, just started his twelfth company.

我就叫他约翰吧。

I'll call him John.

我跟他说：约翰，真的吗？

And I'm going, John, really?

又是这套把戏。

This game again.

我的意思是，你还有什么不知道的？

I mean, what do you not know?

他说：‘我擅长这个。’

He said, well, I'm good at it.

你明明知道，一年四次了。

Kinda going, you knew that four times a god.

我的天，老兄。

I mean, come on, dude.

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Best of all, they've got a thirty day sleep trial, you can buy it and sleep on it for twenty nine nights.

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And if you don't like it, they will give you your money back plus the ship internationally.

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Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod five by going to the link in the description below or heading to 8sleep.com/modernwisdom using the code Modern Wisdom at checkout.

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That's eightsleep.com/modernwisdom@ Modern wisdom at checkout.

我跟我朋友乔治经常讨论的一个想法是‘厌食的寄居蟹’。

Another idea that me and George, my friend, talk about is the anorexic hermit crab.

所以给我解释一下什么是‘厌食的寄居蟹’。

So Explain to me the anorexic hermit crab.

这很棒。

That's great.

所以基本上，螃蟹需要蜕壳

So it basically, the crabs need to shed their

壳

shell

为了能够生长。

in order to be able to grow.

你可以想象一下，我不会说约翰真的在这么做，但。

And what you could imagine, I'm not gonna say that John is doing this Yes.

但你可以想象这样一个世界：一只寄居蟹拒绝进食，以免自己长得太大而撑破壳。

But you could imagine a world in which a hermit crab refused to eat in order for it to not outgrow its shell.

对。

Right.

我会一直待在这里。

And that would be I'm staying right here.

那就是厌食的寄居蟹。

That would be the anorexic hermit crab.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

不。

No.

我认为，而且因为它并不

I think and and Because it doesn't

想穿过中间部分。

wanna go through the middle section.

它不想经历中间的过渡。

It doesn't wanna go through the middle transition.

对。

Right.

我们想从发现开始。

We want to go from found.

去他的。

Fuck it.

我就留在发现阶段。

I'll just stay in found.

是的。

Yeah.

我会保持在发现状态。

I'll stay found.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我们刚和奇普·康诺利聊过，就是那个现代长者学院的人。

Well, we just had the conversation with Chip Connolly, know, mister modern elder academy guy.

你知道的？

You know?

他提倡的是中年蜕变，而不是中年危机。

And he's pushing the midlife chrysalis, not the midlife crisis.

危机是把事情做糟了，而这种转变则是——我的意思是，这个说法挺不错的。

Crisis is doing it badly as opposed to this transformational thing, which is I mean, it's a nice pitch.

他是个很棒的人，做的工作也非常出色。

He's a lovely guy doing really good work.

但不，人生就是变化。

But, no, life life is change.

你知道的？

You know?

如果我真的相信，作为一个人就意味着是一个不断成长的过程，那么它就一定会改变。

If I really believe that being a person is being a becoming, then it's gonna change.

而这些变化中，有些就像季节性的阶段过渡一样，相当有意思。

And some of those changes are are are real seasonal stage like transitions that are that are pretty interesting.

你知道，你得自己决定值不值得。

And I you know, you have to decide if it's worth it.

这很有影响力。

That's impact.

那关于满足感的重新定义呢？

What about the reframe on fulfillment?

好的。

Okay.

所以满足感，就是我能完全地活着，这又回到了当下完全活着的状态，即使它表面上显得特定性不足。

So fulfillment, I can be fully alive, which is again back to be fully alive in the present moment even with its apparent insufficiency of particularity.

我的意思是，这其实是我的第一罐Neutonic。

I mean, it's just I mean, this is my it's actually my first can of Neutonic.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这是我喝过最好的一款。

I think it's the best one I've ever had.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

你知道吗？

You know?

那么，这是地球上最好的含咖啡因饮料吗？

And is it the best, you know, caffeinated drink on the surface of the earth?

是的。

Yes.

到目前为止。

So far.

很好。

Good.

到目前为止。

So far.

很好。

Good.

那我是否愿意说，嗯，还不完全算？

So am I willing am I willing to say, you know, not quite?

还是我愿意说，我真的很享受这个？

Or am willing to say, I'm I'm really enjoying this?

让它成为它本来的样子，而不是因为它尚未达到的状态而责怪它。

And let it be what it is and not not blame it for what it's not yet.

所以，‘完全活着’这个概念又回来了，有一些实践可以帮助我们做到这一点。

So that that's where fully alive comes back in, and there are practices that allow us to do that.

因此，这本书的大部分内容其实是在提出：看吧。

And so most of what the book is really about is positing, look.

存在着一个交易性的世界，所有的表现都在那里发生；同时也存在着一个流动的世界，它正此刻发生着。

There's the transactional world where all this performance is occurring, and there's a flow world where which is happening right now.

你是否能在当下这一刻，获得我所说的‘流动世界’所要求的行为、觉知和专注，从而更深刻地体验生活？因为更多的生命力会带来更多的意义。

Do you have access to the kinds of behaviors, the kind of awareness, the kind of attention in this present moment, what I call the flow world, that will allow you to experience life more deeply because more aliveness feels more meaningful.

它让人感觉更有人性。

It feels more human.

我认为，我们最终被召唤去成为的，是更有人性的人。

I think what we're ultimately called to be is more human.

约瑟夫·坎贝尔多年前在PBS的一次采访中说过，关于意义的问题——这真的是意义吗？还是我们真正追求的，只是活着时那种真正的狂喜？

Joseph Campbell said in an interview years ago on PBS, you know, on the meaning question, like, is it really meaning, or is what we're really after just the true rapture of being alive?

归根结底，你必须决定：人本质上究竟是一个生产引擎，我等于我做了什么，还是一个活生生的生命，我等于我活过的生命？

At the end of the day, you have to decide, is the human person fundamentally just a production engine, I equal what I did, or a living being, and what I equaled was the life I lived?

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

因此，你对‘作为一个人意味着什么’所做出的决定，是一个非常重大的抉择。

So your your your decision about what it means to be a person is a pretty big decision.

你能从进化的角度给我解释一下意义吗？

Can you put meaning into an evolutionary lens for me, please?

比如，意义是如何具有适应性的？

Like, how is meaning adaptive?

从祖先的角度来看，意义是什么？

What is it ancestrally?

如果你能的话，请给我这个视角。

Give me that lens if you can.

我是在即兴发挥，因为那并不是我首先关注的地方。

I'm winging it because that's not first and foremost where I go.

你知道的，我是个现实主义者。

What you know, I'm I'm a realist.

我活在现实中。

I live in reality.

我注意到人们觉得意义这件事非常重要，所以我干脆从头开始：为什么意义可能曾经很重要？

I notice people think the meaning thing is pretty important, so I'm just gonna start Why might meaning have been important?

嗯，这实际上会稍微取决于你的宇宙观。

Well, that's actually gonna depend a little bit on your cosmology.

对。

Right.

我恰好是团队里的有神论者。

I happen to be the the theist on the team.

我的搭档比尔是个欣赏尼采的虚无主义无神论者，所以你会得到不同的观点，但我觉得即使从进化角度看，如果确实有什么在推动进化，那一定存在某种方向，而合作、社群和坚持维系着这种方向，那么让我们让这过程保持有趣，而不仅仅是保持活力。

My partner, Bill, is the Nietzsche appreciating existential atheist, so you're gonna get a different But I think even evolutionarily, if in fact that which is energizing evolution at all, there's some trajectory here, and that collaboration and community and persistence sustain that, then let's keep it interesting, not just keep it virile.

所以我可以继续前进，如果我内心有什么东西希望更深入地投入自己的生活，更深入地投入我们共同的生活，那么这将有助于维系社区。

So I can move along, and so if I can lean if there's something in me that wants to lean more deeply into my own life and lean more deeply into our collective life, then that's gonna keep the community going.

社区将有助于基因的延续。

Community is gonna keep the genome going.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

很好。

Good.

这是一种多种亲社会宏观营养素的协调，是的。

It's a alignment of a bunch of different prosocial macronutrients Yeah.

这些营养素既来自内在，也与亲属关系有关，是的。

That are both internal and sort of kin based y Yeah.

就是围绕着你的邓巴数相关的东西。

Just around you Dunbar number stuff.

所以，你的观点是尝试总结一下我们到目前为止的进展吗？

So is it your perspective to try and summarize where we've got to so far?

是的。

Yeah.

当人们说他们想要更多意义时，他们真正想解决的问题是，他们想要更多生命力。

The problem that people are trying to actually solve when they say they want more meaning Yes.

他们想要感觉更有活力。

Is they want more aliveness.

他们想要感觉更有活力吗？

They want to feel more alive?

差不多。

Almost.

我建议，如果我们把更多生命力加入到意义的定义中，然后提供获得它的方法，是的。

I'm I'm suggesting that if we added more aliveness to the definition of meaning and then give tools to acquire that Mhmm.

那么他们获得意义的机会就会增加。

Then their access to meanings are gonna go up.

对。

Right.

现在的人，你知道的，就像你的食物分类一样。

The right now, people you know, it's like your food groups.

我的意思是，我有一个食物类别叫‘影响’，我们建议要不要分成五个？

I mean, if you got I've got I've got one food group called impact, and we're suggesting how about five?

影响、惊奇、心流、连贯性和社群。

Impact, wonder, flow, coherence, and community.

所以如果我有更多食物类别，我可能就能摄取更多热量。

So if I've got more food groups, I might get more calories.

那满足感呢？

What about fulfillment in that?

满足感被拆分到这些其他组成部分里了吗？

Fulfillment's being broken out into some of those other component parts?

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Understood.

是的。

Yeah.

这是我人性中不同方面的体验、成长和表达方式。

It's it's ways different aspects of my humanity are being both experienced, grown, and expressed.

好的。

Okay.

意义的构成要素

Contributing elements of meaning

对。

Yep.

在你的理解中。

In your conception.

是的。

Yeah.

顺便说一下，这并不全面。

Which is not comprehensive, by the way.

这算是一本低垂的果实之书。

This is kind of a low hanging fruit book.

你知道的？

You know?

我们是

We're we're the

从零到一才是正确的方向。

Zero to one is the way to go.

嗯，你知道的，这里有很多人专注于最大化、追求高效、尽可能充分利用。

Well, you know, you know, you have a lot of people on here who are about maximizing, about high performance, about getting the most out of.

我们把标准定低一点，然后轻松越过它，各位。

We're the set the bar low and clear it, guys.

我的意思是，我们试图提供一些可行且易用的工具，让普通人也能日常使用。

I mean, we're we're trying to provide doable, accessible tools that regular people can use on a regular basis.

人生很长。

Life is long.

这是一个渐进的进化过程。

It's an incremental evolutionary process.

让我们一起到达那里。

Let's all get there.

所以当比尔和我观察人们在哪里遇到困难，以及从设计思维的角度来看我们能说什么时，我们所处的平台让我们可以这样说：我们不会在这里彻底探讨意义问题的全部内涵。

So when Bill and I looked at where people were struggling and what we might have to say through the lens of design thinking, that's the platform we sort of are allowed to speak from, we said, well, we're we're not gonna completely boil the ocean of the meaning question here.

我们不会。

We're not.

然而，什么可能会有帮助呢？

However, what might be helpful?

因此，我们刚才讨论的这些重新框架可能很有帮助。

And so these reframes we think might be helpful that we just discussed.

有一些心态是有帮助的。

Couple of mindsets are helpful.

他有没有一章讲这个？

Was he got a chapter on that?

而这四个领域——好奇、心流、连贯性和形成性社群——绝不是意义的全部。

And then these four areas, wonder, flow, coherency, and formative community, we are the that's not the totality of meaning by any means.

意义是一个很大的话题。

Meaning is a big topic.

但我们认为这四个方面几乎每个人都能轻松接触到，并且能很快获得。

But we think those four are readily available to almost everybody, and they're accessible pretty quickly.

所以这里有一个设计工具、实践、想法或建议，你可以从中获取这些内容。

So here's a design tool or a practice or an idea or suggestion where you might go get some of that stuff.

如果这对很多人有用，那就是一件好事。

If that works for a lot of people, that's a good thing.

很好的起点。

Good starting point.

在进入引擎和组成部分之前，关于重新框架还有什么要说的吗？

Is there anything else to say about reframe before we get into the engines and the component part?

是的。

Yeah.

关于重新框架，正如人们所说，我同意，我们的生活体验很大程度上是我们讲给自己听的故事。

Just the point of reframe, you know, it has been said, and I would agree, that, you know, life is largely a story our experience of life is largely a story we tell ourselves.

我们现在从神经生理学角度知道，我们看到的并不是眼前的东西。

And we know neurophysiologically now that we don't see what we're looking at.

我们看到的是我们正在寻找的东西。

We see what we're looking for.

因此，我们的视角以及我们对世界将如何发展的预期至关重要。

So our lens and how we anticipate what the world's gonna be really matters.

所以，重新框架的意义，就像说：不。

So the point of reframing, like, no.

我不是在追求满足感。

I'm not trying to be fulfilled.

我追求的是完全地活着。

I'm trying to be fully alive.

这是一种重新框架。

That's a reframe.

你知道，当我们重新定义事物时，真的会改变一切。

You know, when we reframe things, it really changes everything.

要借着心意的更新而变化。

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

这在多大程度上是自上而下，还是自下而上的？

How much of this is top down versus bottom up?

我们能对自己说：你必须做这件事吗？

Because can we dictate to ourselves, you will do this thing?

社群的部分

The community piece

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

会很令人兴奋。

Is gonna be exciting.

显然会对此起到推动作用。

Obviously, gets to feed into it.

流动这个部分在两者之间，但很大一部分是思维问题。

The flow piece is kind of halfway between the two, but much of this is thinking problem.

有人可能会理解为：我需要通过思考来摆脱这个思维困境。

Someone might interpret it as, I need to think my way out of this thinking problem.

嗯，你知道的，我在斯坦福大学教书。

Well, we're you know, I teach at Stanford.

我们写了一本书，内容非常明确、清晰，所以它更多属于理念层面。

We wrote a book that's pretty explicit, articulate stuff, so it's kind of in the idea realm.

而且，是的，我这个人挺爱动脑的。

And, yeah, I'm pretty heady.

你知道，我一直在开字幕。

You know, I I've got closed captioning on all the time.

我真的很喜欢了解事物并加以描述。

I really like knowing things and describing.

我几乎更愿意描述一件事，而不是亲自去做。

I'd I'd almost rather describe something than do it.

你知道，这对我来说有点诱惑。

You know, that's that's a bit of a temptation for me.

但我觉得，重新思考——正是我们的意识，你知道，引导着我们的能动性，能够赋予我们对生活的某种掌控力。

But so I think the refr the the rethinking, this is where our consciousness, you know, directs our agency, you know, can can be the thing that gives us some power over our lives.

所以，它可能始于换一种方式思考。

So it may start with thinking differently.

不过，我们很快就会进入，你知道的，希望是具身体验。

However, we're gonna go into, you know, hopefully, embodied experiences in a pretty quick way.

我们希望给人们机会，去培养他们关注、觉察和体验这些其他感受的能力，这些体验是身体化的。

We we want to get people the chance to grow their actual faculties of attending to and noticing and having these other experiences, which are embody.

我的意思是，心流并不是一种基于思维的体验。

I mean, flow is flow is not a thought based experience.

因此，我们希望朝向身体化迈进。

So we wanna move toward embodiment.

我认为，随着时间推移，当你越来越擅长这些事情时，起点有时会是那些真正觉察当下体验、或从身体中浮现而非从大脑或想法中浮现的体验。

And I think over time, as you get better at these kind of things, sometimes the starting place will be those experiences where you actually are noticing something in the experience of the moment or coming out of your body rather than coming out of your brain or coming out of your ideas.

这个解决问题的世界和意义构建的世界之间有什么区别？

What's the difference between that problem solving world and the meaning making world?

好的。

Okay.

在解决问题的世界里，依然存在意义。

Well, there's still meaning in the problem solving world.

只是它是一种非常狭隘的形式。

It's just it's just a narrow a narrow form of it.

所以我们提出了交易世界和流动世界的模型，流动世界中蕴含着丰富的意义，原因很简单：看。

So we came up with this model of the transactional world and the flow world, that and there's a bunch of meaning to be had in the flow world simply because look.

只有一个真实的世界。

There's only one real world.

虽然有两个世界，但你的大脑无法同时处理全部内容。

There are two worlds, but your brain can't handle the whole thing at one time.

我们现在从神经学角度已经知道了。

And we now know neurologically.

比如哥伦比亚大学的丽莎·米勒的研究，你的大脑有‘成就脑’和‘觉醒脑’两种模式。

You know, Lisa Miller's work at Columbia, there's your achieving brain, and there's your awakened brain.

这是对左右脑模型更精细的升级版本。

Know, the much more sophisticated version of the left brain, right brain model.

你知道，吉尔·博尔特·泰勒在《中风 insights》中描述的经历，那位神经学家一度失去了她的左脑。

You know, Jill Bolt Taylor's here stroke of insight, what happened when this neurologist actually lost her left brain for a while.

所以，我们现在试图整合这两者，让人能够接触到它们。

So what's going on is we're trying to integrate these things and give people access to it.

所以，如果我能更多地进入我全部意识的完整实现，那么我过上更丰富生活的可能性就会增加。

And so if I if I can move more into a a fuller implementation of my entire consciousness, then my chance at living a richer life goes up.

因此，流动世界 simply 意味着我想确保我意识中能够体验现实其他层面的部分获得足够的关注。

And so the the flow world simply means I wanna start making sure that the part of my consciousness that can experience other aspects of reality is getting airtime.

因为当我的这种觉知获得更多关注时，就在眼前，有大量免费的体验正等待着我，而目前它们却被浪费了。

Because when that part of my awareness gets more airtime, there are experiences available to me right in front of me for free that currently are going wasted.

所以我们说，这并不是关于获得更多。

So we're saying it's not about more.

我们试图邀请人们从他们已有的生活中获得更多，而不是往里面塞更多东西来改变它。

Is it get we are trying to invite people to get more out of the life they're in, not cram more into it to change it.

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们现在写了两本书，讲述如何实现重大改变。

Now we wrote two books about how to make big changes.

我们支持改变事物并让它们变得更好。

We're in favor of changing things and making them better.

但在过程中，别忘了活在当下的生活。

But along the way, don't forget to live the life you're in.

基于这种视角，优化或过度优化会不会在某种程度上剥夺了生活的意义？

So with that perspective, does opt or overoptimization drain life of meaning in some ways?

我认为确实会。

I think it can.

如果我们总是试图追求更好的东西，大多数人的幸福程度其实取决于差距——即现实状况与他们心中设想之间的差距。

I think if we're if we're always simply trying to get to the better thing, Most people's degree of happiness is described by the delta, the gap between the way things are and what they had in mind.

当这个差距很小时，生活就顺利。

When that gap is small, it's working.

当这个差距很大时，生活就不顺。

When that gap is broad, it's not.

这意味着我已决定，我生活的质量取决于我心中一个想象中的标准。

So that means I've just decided the quality of my life is based on an imaginal idea that I have.

你可以降低你的期望，或者提升你的表现。

You you can either bring your expectations down or increase your performance.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，人们常说有两种说法。

I mean, people land you know, there's two phrases.

够好就是够好，够好就不是够好。

Good enough is and good enough isn't.

大多数人有偏见。

Most people have a bias.

他们往往属于其中一种类型的人。

They tend to be one of those kind of persons.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

事实是，这两种说法都对。

The truth is they're both true.

只是在应用时要仔细选择。

Just pick carefully when you apply them.

所以我完全支持高绩效。

So I'm all about high performance.

你知道的。

You know?

变得更好。

Get better.

学习如何做事。

Learn how to do things.

听休伯曼的。

Listen to Huberman.

听克里斯·威廉姆森的。

Listen to Chris Williamson.

你知道吧？

You know?

但如果我完全陷入那种状态，我对自己生活的体验就只是不断试图缩小差距。

But if I fall all the way into that thing, then my aware my experience in my own life is always simply trying to narrow the gap.

而一旦我拉近了差距，就该提升自己的水平，把那个渐近线再推得更远，从而制造更大的差距，推动自己前进。

And then as soon as I get it close, it's time to up my game and push that asymptote further out again so that I have more gap and push myself forward.

我的意思是，你永远不可能彻底最大化自己的效率。

I mean, you can never ultimately maximize your productivity.

艾伦·瓦茨说过一句很美的话。

There's a beautiful line from Alan Watts.

他说，如果我们过度沉迷于改善生活，就可能忘了真正地生活。

He says, if we are altogether unduly absorbed with improving our lives, we may forget to live them.

你完全没理解重点。

You missed the whole thing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这种临时的生活，是的。

This provisional life Yeah.

抵达谬误。

The the arrival fallacy.

对。

Yeah.

没有完成，没有正确，也没有那个‘它’。

There there is no done, there is no right, and there is no it.

我找到它了吗？

Have I found it?

根本不存在那个‘它’。

There's no it.

我想到了一个最现代的例子，让我一直铭记在心，那就是我的备忘录，莫里，不过好吧。

I think about the the most modern example of this that keeps me this is my memento, Maury, but for the Okay.

TikTok一代。

TikTok generation.

是的。

Yep.

有一天你会死去，但你的收件箱仍会不断积累邮件。

One day you'll die and your inbox will still accumulate emails.

也就是说，这永远都不会做完。

Like, that will never be done.

会有人继续给你发邮件，是的。

There will be people emailing you Yeah.

问你为什么没有回复，或者在朋友面前悄悄说，是的。

Asking why you're not replying or secretly saying to a friend Yeah.

你太无礼了，因为你没有回复，而他们根本不知道你已经去世了。

That you were really rude because you hadn't replied who don't know that you're dead.

而邮件还会继续发来。

You're And the emails will continue to come.

我有一小群朋友，他们作为我的支持团体已经陪伴了我五十一年。

So I have a small group of guys that have been my support group for fifty one years.

我是在1974年组建了这个团体。

I formed them in 1974.

你知道，我是里面年纪最大的。

You know, I'm the eldest.

我马上就要73岁了，但我们所有人年龄都只相差一两年。

I'm about to turn 73, but we're all within a year or two of each other.

所以我们开始步入七旬之年。

And so we started moving into our seventies.

大约十八个月前，在庆祝五十周年时，我们开始了一场对话，这场讨论已经持续了两年，主题是我们将如何成为长者？

And at the fiftieth anniversary about eighteen months ago, you know, we started a conversation, been going on for about two years now, about how are we going to become elders?

我的意思是，我跟别人这么说，因为这是实话。

I mean, literally, I tell people because it's true.

我下一个重要里程碑就是死亡。

My next major milestone is death.

我该怎么好好地到达那里呢？

How do I get there well?

其中一部分是，你知道，我父亲在我九岁时自杀去世了。

Now part of that is, you know, I've I've you know, I've had a lot of people my father died of suicide when I was nine.

好的。

K.

所以很早就开始，与逝者相处变得重要了。

So dealing with dead people has became important early on.

五年前，我深爱的妻子克劳迪娅因癌症去世了，但奇怪的是，另一位与这位女士有相似经历的女性报名参加了这个项目，所以我即将再次结婚。

I lost my beloved wife, Claudia, to cancer five years ago, though oddly enough, another composement to this woman has decided to sign up for the program, so I'm about to get married again.

恭喜你。

Congratulations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yes.

但你知道，这是一条非常陡峭的学习曲线。

But, you know, it's a very steep learning curve.

你知道，约翰·奥多诺霍，那位古老的凯尔特神秘主义者，曾说，镜像他人就像是移居到一个外国。

You know, John O'Donohue, the old Celtic mystic, would say that mirroring another person is moving to a foreign country.

全新的文化，全新的语言。

Whole new culture, whole new language.

或者我的朋友杰里·西斯特，那位哲学教授，会说：没有第二次婚姻。

Or my friend Jerry Sister would say, philosophy professor, there are no second marriages.

只有再次进行的第一次婚姻。

There are only first marriages the second time around.

所以我现在是在进行第三次的第一次婚姻，而这条学习曲线非常陡峭，顺便说一句，这太棒了。

So I'm doing a first marriage the third time around, and the learning curve is steep, which, by the way, is terrific.

但关于死亡这件事，一旦你理解了，它就会四处传播。

But this death thing, once you get it but it's going around.

它正变得越来越流行。

It's becoming extremely popular.

你知道吧？

You know?

以前它很流行，现在它依然流行，而且仍然非常流行。

It was popular earlier, and now it's popular later, but still very popular.

几乎人人都在关注它。

Almost everybody's into it.

一旦你真正理解了自己的有限性，而埋葬几位亲友会帮助你做到这一点，你就会与它更加亲近。

And once you really get your hands around your finitude, and burying a couple of people will help you do that, it gets you more intimate with it.

所以这非常令人解脱。

So it's very freeing.

我还有什么？

What have I got?

你知道的，十二年，十五年？

You know, twelve years, fifteen years?

我非常清楚，我死后我的生产力会急剧下降。

And it's very clear to me that my productivity is gonna plummet after my death.

我的意思是，它就会像石头一样直直地坠落。

I mean, it's just gonna fall it's just gonna drop off like a stone.

所以，在通往死亡的路上，我的意思是，你知道，我到底有多努力？你知道，我生命最后六个月的曲线下的面积真的会有实质意义吗？

And so this trajectory on the way to the grave I mean, like, you know, how hard how hard am I you know you know, is is the is the area under the curve of the last six months of my life really gonna net matter?

但这并不意味着可以敷衍了事。

Which doesn't mean mailing it in is okay.

它的意思是，你看。

What it means is, look.

你是一个人。

You're a person.

你拥有一次生命。

You have a life.

你这一生是为了什么？

What's it for?

现在，去完成点什么吧。

Now get something done.

你知道，我是个老童子军。

You know, I'm an old boy scout.

让我们离开露营地时比来的时候更好，但这就是我们唯一要做的事吗？

Let's leave the campground better than we found it, but is that the only thing we're doing?

你能够给予的礼物是什么？

What's the gift you have to give?

克里斯，你的工作就是搞清楚。

Chris, your job I'll crissing.

那就是你的工作。

That's your job.

它体现在建立更好的自我帮助、成长和意识上，尤其是在当今这个时代对年轻男性而言。

Now it expresses itself in establishing better, you know, self help growth awareness, particularly in young men in this current era.

这是个不错的贡献。

That's a nice contribution.

但归根结底，你的工作就是做你自己，克里斯。

But at the end of the day, your job is to be Chris.

我认为，我们每个人都是上帝或宇宙——取决于你的宇宙观——赐予世界的礼物，你的任务就是弄清楚里面有什么，并把礼物拆开，让我们在游戏结束前好好享受它。

I think each of us is a gift that god or the universe, depending on your cosmology, has given to the world, and your job is to figure out what's inside there and get the thing unwrapped so we can play with it before the game is over.

AG1刚刚发布了他们的新一代配方，这是比我过去多年每天饮用的产品更先进、经过临床验证的版本，提供超过75种维生素，包括你的复合维生素、益生菌和超级食物绿蔬等。

AG1 just released their next gen formula, which is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product I've been drinking every day for years, delivering more than 75 vitamins, including your multivitamin pre and probiotic superfood greens and more.

而且，他们首次新增了三种口味：热带、柑橘和浆果，目前仅在美国和加拿大供应。

And for the first time, they've added new flavors, tropical, citrus, and berry, only available in The US and Canada.

抱歉，刚才插了句话。

Sorry for that.

但你依然能享受到同样的单勺仪式感。

But you do still get the same one scoop ritual.

现在，它的配方更加用心，口味更佳，并且经过四项临床试验验证，专为提升吸收率和有效性而设计。

Now with an even more thoughtful formulation, flavor, and, four clinical trials behind it designed with absorption and efficacy in mind.

自2010年以来，AG1一直紧跟最新研究持续进化，而新一代产品已被临床证明，即使对于饮食已经很健康的人群，也能帮助填补常见的营养缺口并支持肠道健康。

AG1 has been evolving continuously since 2010 alongside the latest research, and NexGen is clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps and support gut health even in people who already eat well.

在一项研究中，它使肠道中的有益菌数量增加了十倍。

In one study, it boosted healthy bacteria in the gut by 10 times.

如果你还不确定，他们提供90天无条件退款保证，你可以购买后连续三个月每天使用。

If you're still unsure, they've got a ninety day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it every single day for three months.

如果你不喜欢，他们会全额退款，所以你完全没有任何损失。

If you don't like it, they will just give you your money back, so you've got nothing to lose.

现在，通过访问描述中的链接或前往 drinkag1.com/modernwisdom，你可以免费获得一年的维生素D3、K2以及AG1旅行装，外加90天退款保证。

Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin d three k two and AG one travel packs plus that ninety day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.

网址是 drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。

That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.

你知道我最喜欢的例子吗？萨尔瓦多·达利？

You know my favorite example of this Salvador Dali?

我不知道。

I don't know.

你了解达利吗？

Have you do you know much about Dali?

我喜欢他的作品，我也去过他的家。

I like his I like his work, and I've I've been to his home.

还有你

And, you

你知道的，是的。

know yeah.

他的个人生活是这样的：根据他父母的说法，他是他已故兄弟的转世。

So his personal life so his he was the reincarnation of his dead brother according to his parents.

达利当时20岁。

So Dali's 20 old.

对。

Right.

他的父母带他去了一座墓地，给他看一座坟墓。

And his parents take him to a graveyard and show him a gravesite.

他有一个哥哥比他早出生20年，而达利就是以他哥哥的名字命名的。

And he had a brother that was born 20 before him, and Dali is named after him.

好的。

Okay.

他的父母说，这就是萨尔瓦多。

And his parents say, this is Salvador.

你就是这个人。

This is who you are.

这就是一切的开始。

This is who that was how it started.

这就是达利人生的开端。

That was how Dali's life started.

他从一开始就很特别。

He was interesting from the get go.

十岁，十岁的时候。

Ten ten years old.

他故意从楼梯上往下跳，因为他意识到痛苦很有趣，人们会围过来，他可以用这种方式非常权谋地操控他们。

He's throwing himself down sets of stairs because he realizes that pain is interesting and that people come and he can manipulate them in this sort of very Machiavellian sort of way.

是的。

Yes.

他曾经牵着一只食蚁兽走在巴黎的街道上。

He walked an anteater through the streets of Paris.

当被问到为什么时，他说是因为食蚁兽从来不会流行。

When he was asked why, he said it's because anteaters are never in fashion.

他带了一把手枪，是的。

He took a pistol Yeah.

去他在法国的一场现场演讲，并不时开枪以维持观众的注意力。

To a live talk that he gave in France, and he just fired it intermittently to keep people's attention.

他还做过另一次演讲，当时穿着深海潜水服，结果在演讲中窒息，不得不在中途被强行拽出来。

He also gave another talk where he was in a deep sea diving suit and suffocated in it and had to be wrenched out of it mid talk.

他拒绝正面穿过门框。

He refused to walk through doorways forwards.

他只会侧身或倒着走，因为他认为这种习惯会破坏创造力的模式。

He would only ever go sideways or backward because he said that habit destroys the patterns of creativity.

他曾起诉一个人，说对方梦见了他，并声称：潜意识属于我。

He once sued a guy for dreaming about him and said, the subconscious belongs to me.

正如你所知，他被埋葬在地下，人们在观赏他的作品时会从他的遗体上走过。

He is buried, as you know, underneath his own people walk over his body when observing his work.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他生前非常贫穷。

To because he was very poor during his life.

他曾经签发一些无法兑现的支票，因为他的银行账户里没有钱，但你可以在支票背面涂鸦，而这些涂鸦的图案价值往往超过支票本身。

He used to sign checks that couldn't be cashed because he had no money in his bank account, but you would doodle on the back of them, and the check illustration would be worth more than the actual check itself.

对。

Yeah.

他

He

那他当时在那里做什么呢？

Again, so what's what's he doing there?

他说的是，他就是完整的自己。

What's he saying is he's The fullness of him.

他注意到人们陷入各种模式，并把这些模式当作生活的本质，而不是意识到这些模式只是承载他们的容器。

He's noticing that people fall into patterns and and act as though those patterns are what life is as opposed to they're a container that's supposed to hold them.

因此，他会超越这些模式，迫使你意识到：门并不是用来穿过的，于是他最终形成了一种自己都无法遵守的准则。

So he's gonna transcend the pattern and force you to realize, oh, doors aren't for walking through so he ends up with a a policy that he can't abide by the pattern.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，他在道德上致力于不断推动这个边界，以免自己未能发挥全部潜能，这是一种非常修道式的承诺。

So his his moral commitment is to constantly press that edge lest I'm less than I could be, which is which is a really sort of monastic commitment.

关于这一点，完整性的体现在于，达芬奇虽然才华横溢，但并没有成为达利，米开朗基罗也没有成为达利。

Well, the fullness thing on that is as brilliant as he was, da Vinci didn't do Dali, and Michelangelo didn't do Dali.

对。

Right.

如果他不是完全成为真实的自己，这个世界就会从根本上变得贫瘠。

So if he had been anything short of the fullness of himself, the world would be fundamentally less.

所以，我同意。

So I agree.

我认为我们有一种宇宙般的、因果的责任，是的。

I think that we have this sort of cosmic, karmic duty Yeah.

对存在的责任，去完成只有我们能做的事，因为你做不到达利的事，我也做不到，米开朗基罗做不到，达·芬奇也做不到？

To existence Right.

是的。

To do what only we can do because you can't do Dali, and neither can I, and neither can Michelangelo, and neither could da Vinci?

没错。

Right.

所以他的任务就是带着食蚁兽散步，侧身穿过门框。

So it's his job to walk the anteater and to go through the doorway sideways.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

So okay.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

组成部分。

The component parts.

惊奇。

Wonder.

关于惊奇，我们需要了解什么？

What do we need to know about wonder?

好的。

Okay.

所以惊奇，我们为此有一个简单的公式。

So wonder and we have a little equation for that.

当你拥有好奇心时，好奇心是非常好的东西。

So when you take curiosity curiosity is a very good thing.

这是一种我们支持的心态。

It's a mindset we're in favor of.

你知道的吧？

You know?

当你将好奇心直接导向神秘事物——那些超越我们理解或当前尚未被超越的事物时，你就提升了它。

And you upgrade it by applying you direct curiosity toward mystery, those things that are beyond our understanding or since transcended at the moment of time.

好奇心加神秘感，因此我现在将高度投入于神秘之中，这就能让奇迹发生。

Curiosity plus mystery, so I'm now gonna lean with a high availability into a mystery, allows wonder to occur.

奇迹之所以重要，原因之一是：奇迹、敬畏，甚至积极的 overwhelm（过度冲击）。

One the reason wonder is important, so wonder, awe, even positive overwhelm.

所以，博士。

So Doctor.

凯尔特纳，加州大学伯克利分校的权威学者，写过一本关于敬畏的书，书中提出了八种不同的人类体验，能够引发敬畏或奇迹感；他深入研究了这一点，发现它在所有文化与各种精神传统中都适用。

Keltner, a prophet at UC Berkeley, has written the book on awe and eight different forms of human experience that allow awe or wonder to occur, so he's quadrupled down on this thing and that it works across all cultures and all different spiritual traditions.

这是一种根本性的人类体验，人们普遍报告说，它让人感觉更鲜活、更真实地做自己，也更深刻地感受到自己是这伟大奇妙整体的一部分。

It's a fundamentally human experience that people report as making themselves feel more alive and making themselves themselves feel more like themselves and making themselves feel more like a part of this great wonderful thing.

因此，在强烈的奇迹体验中——无论是音乐会中的集体共鸣，还是日落时分，或是凌晨三点凝视熟睡的婴儿——你突然意识到：哦，原来我们所有人、一切事物，都是一体的，我们共同置身于这宏大整体之中，这种普世性瞬间显现。

So very often in an intense experience of wonder, whether it's a communal thing at a concert, whether it's a sunset, whether it's noticing the sleeping baby at three in the morning, you know, suddenly like, oh, and we are all and it's all one fabric, and we're all in this thing together, and the universality of it all suddenly breaks through.

因此，惊奇使这一切成为可能。

So wonder enables that to occur.

这是一种深刻的人性体验。

It's profoundly human making experience.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且我们认为，这种体验随时都可获得。

So and we think that's available all the time.

你刚才不是还引用了一句话吗？

You know, you'd give a quote just a minute ago.

我特别喜欢亨利·米勒的这句话。

I love this particular quote from Henry Miller.

美国作家兼剧作家亨利·米勒曾说过：‘我有一个理论，当你对任何事物——哪怕是一根小草——投入专注时，它就会变成一个神秘、壮丽、难以言喻的宏伟世界。’

So the American author and playwright Henry Miller once said, quote, I have a theory that the moment one gives close attention to anything, even a blade of grass, it becomes a mysterious, awesome, indescribably magnificent world in itself.

我已无数次尝试过这个实验，从未感到失望。

I have tried this experiment a thousand times, and I have never been disappointed.

所以，你知道，这就是好奇的习惯。

So, you know, that's the that's the habit of wonder.

因此，好奇是我们能够超越自我的地方，顺便说一下，这又回到了马斯洛的理论。

So so wonder is the place where we can move beyond ourselves, which, by the way, goes back to Maslow.

在他生命的晚期，马斯洛以及大多数人仍然认为，马斯洛需求层次的顶峰是自我实现。

So late in his life, Maslow and most people still think that the apex of the hierarchy of needs according to Maslow is self actualization.

其实并不是。

It's not.

最高层次实际上是自我超越，这是他在晚年才提出的概念。

The highest level is actually self transcendency, which he came up with very late in his life.

他从未公开发表过。

He never published it.

它只存在于他的个人日记笔记中。

It's in his personal journal notes.

是的。

Mhmm.

其他人在他身后发表了这一观点。

Others published it behind him.

但有趣的是，仍有八成的人认为它止步于自我实现。

But interestingly enough, still, you know, eight out of 10 people think it stops at self actualization.

而自我超越一旦达成，就会创造意义。

And self transcendency, if attained, creates meaning making.

所以这其中是有区别的。

So there's a difference.

但他还是错了，因为他把这设为层级结构，而实际上自我超越并不是层级性的。

And he's still wrong because he made it hierarchical, and it turns out self transcendency isn't hierarchical.

你不必先达到自我实现。

You don't have to be self actualized together.

自我超越可以适用于任何人，在任何地点、任何时间。

Self transcendency can work for anyone, anywhere, anytime.

只要超越自己就行，无论是爱他人、无私奉献、充满同情，还是察觉美并任其将你淹没，所有这些都能让你超越自我。

Just get beyond yourself, whether it's loving other people, whether it's being selfless, whether it's compassion, whether it's noticing beauty and allowing it to overwhelm you, all those things get you beyond yourself.

而惊奇是一种超越自我的状态。

And wonder is a place where you go beyond yourself.

否则，如果这不是真的，那么除非你先充分发挥了潜能，否则仰望夜空也不会令人印象深刻。

Or else if that wasn't true, looking up at the night sky wouldn't be impressive unless you'd maximize your potential first.

没错。

Exactly.

为别人做些事，让你感到良好和正确。

Doing something for somebody else that makes you feel good and Right.

让世界变得更美好并不只是利他的。

The world a better place wouldn't be pro social.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

但你知道的。

Well, but you know

你还没有资格去留意。

you You had not yet earned the right to notice.

到目前为止，你还没有最大化你的401(k)。

As of yet, you haven't maximized your four zero one k.

对。

Right.

这意味着你得不到

And that means that you don't get

你并没有，斯科特

You're not you don't Scott

巴里·斯科特·巴里·考夫曼在这方面做得很好。

Barry Scott Barry Kaufman did a good a good job on that.

他的书《超越》不错。

His book Transcend Yes.

那本书真的很棒，他非常关注无重量的东西。

Was was was real nice, and he's he's big into into massless stuff.

好的。

Okay.