#1064 - 丹妮·苏利科夫斯基博士 - 女性性竞争的残酷策略

对吧？

Right?

如果每一个提出反家庭、反生育观念和规范的女性，实际上自己都不遵守这些，那这不过是另一个公平的竞争环境。

That if every woman that was putting forward some anti family creation, anti reproductive stories, ideologies, and norms, if all of them weren't adhering to them, that's just another level playing field.

这其中并没有什么竞争优势。

There's no competitive advantage between that.

所以必须存在一些我们可以称之为领导者和追随者的人。

So there have to be we could call them we could call them leaders and followers.

比如，有一些领导者

Like, there are some Leaders

和追随者，赢家和输家。

and followers, winners and losers.

我的意思是，从竞争的角度来看，确实有一些人在这场竞争中获胜，而另一些人则失败了。

You know, I mean, in terms of it, thinking of it as a, you know, as competition that, you know, they're effectively, there are people who are winning this competition and there are people who are losing this competition.

我想，最极端的例子就是那些在我们这个世界上，正在以巨大代价输掉这场竞争的女性。

And I guess the most extreme example, I think of women who, our world, of women who are losing this competition in a massive way.

这确实是一个相当极端的例子，我承认。

And it is a pretty extreme example, I'll grant you that.

但比你想象中更常见的是，一些年轻、天真的女性，在二十岁出头时就去做了绝育手术，结扎或切断输卵管之类的。

But more common than you might think is women who are going out and in their very young and naive, you know, early twenties, going out and getting themselves made sterile, getting their tubes tied or severed or or whatever.

这确实是个现象。

That's a thing.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my God.

没错。

Yes.

不，这确实是个现象。

No, that that is a thing.

这并不是说这件事无关紧要，但我向你保证，这确实是一个真实存在的现象。

Like, it's not like it's not a massive thing, but oh no, that is I promise you that is absolutely definitely a thing.

但你知道，现在她们觉得自由了，可以尽情享受性生活，再也不用担心避孕失败，不会被束缚，也不会有孩子。

But you know, with this idea that they're now free, that they can now have all the sex in the world they want and they don't have to worry about contraception failing, they'll never be tied down, they'll never have children.

这个现象有趣的地方在于，这不仅仅关乎她们自己做出这样的决定。

And what's interesting about this phenomenon is that, again, it's not just about them doing this to themselves.

显然，这样做具有很强的信号意义。

Clearly doing this has tremendous signalling value.

因为一旦她们做了这件事，这个行为就会被传递出去。

Because once they go and do it, it then gets signalled.

它会被讨论、被庆祝，还会在社交媒体上被分享。

It then gets talked about and it gets celebrated and it gets shared upon social media.

其他女性会纷纷前来，告诉她们这是一项多么美好而解放的决定，尤其是那些三十七八岁、已经有三四个孩子的女性。

All the other women come in and tell them how you know, what a wonderful liberating decision they've made, especially women in their late thirties with three or four kids.

告诉她们，这个决定是多么美好、多么具有解放意义。

Tell them what a wonderful liberating decision it is that they've made.

不，这确实是一个现象。

No, this is definitely a thing.

所以我查了一下相关数据，当时我正在为一个研究项目做准备，其实是为了一个演讲，这个演讲基于几年前的一个研究项目。

So I had a look at, I was looking up the stats on this for a research project I was sort of doing, a talk I was doing actually, based on a research project a couple of years ago.

输卵管结扎手术的发明，可以说是由于输卵管组织实际上与卵巢癌的发生有关。

And the tubal ligation procedure was invented, if you will, because the fallopian tubes is the tissue that actually is responsible for ovarian cancer.

而卵巢癌，你可能知道，是一种非常严重的癌症，很难在早期发现，一旦发现往往已是晚期，情况并不乐观。

And ovarian cancer, which you probably know is a pretty bad one, it's really hard to detect until it's late stage, and so it's not good.

得卵巢癌可不是好事。

It's not good to get ovarian cancer.

因此，许多女性在绝经后、不再生育时，会选择直接切除输卵管，因为这基本上可以消除患卵巢癌的风险。

And so a lot of women, once they are post reproductive and they're finished having kids, will just go and get their tubes taken out because that basically eliminates the risk of ovarian cancer.

这就是为什么这种手术会存在。

And so that's why the procedure exists.

但当然，一旦这种手术存在了，它就变成了一种可以被利用的工具。

But of course, once that procedure exists, it now becomes a tool that can be used.

这确实是女性们正在反对的一件事。

And it is absolutely a thing that women are going against.

因此，我找到的一个相当有说服力的统计数据是，根据不同数据集，有百分之十五到三十的女性在进行该手术后，曾咨询过是否可以恢复。

And so one statistic that is quite telling that I was able to locate is that depending on the data set, somewhere between fifteen and thirty percent, which is a lot, of the women who have this procedure make inquiries about having it reversed.

所以我推测，那些因担心卵巢癌而绝育的女性并不在这些想要恢复手术的人群之中。

So I'm guessing that none of the women who are post reproductive age who took these tubes out because of ovarian cancer fears are amongst those looking to have it now reversed.

所以我们讨论的是，有百分之十五到三十的女性接受了这种手术。

So we're talking about somewhere between fifteen percent and thirty percent of women who have had this procedure.

当然，并非所有这些女性都是因为误以为这是永久避孕而接受手术的，但有些人可能在年轻时因担心卵巢癌而做了手术，以为自己不会想要孩子，如今却深感后悔。

Now, not all of those will have had it for some misguided form of permanent contraception, but some people may have had this procedure for ovarian cancer reasons when they were very young thinking they wouldn't want children and now really regret it.

但确实有一部分女性在做手术时以为自己会一辈子享受永久不育的快乐，却在某个时刻发现她们并不满意这个决定。

But there is certainly a substantial proportion of of women who are having this procedure thinking that they're gonna be very happy being permanently sterile their whole life, only discover at some point that they're not happy with that decision anymore.

哇。

Wow.

哇。

Wow.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，这确实为那些像《Vogue》上那篇关于斯特拉有了男朋友后让人尴尬的文章带来了不同的视角。

I mean, it really does put a different angle on articles like that Vogue one that went absolutely into Stella is having a boyfriend cringe now.

是的

Yeah.

我想到的就是那一篇。

That's the one I was thinking of.

是的

Yeah.

哦，是那篇关于右翼的吗？

Oh, that was the one about the right wing?

是说有了男朋友在成长吗？

Is having a boyfriend growing?

不是。

No.

这太尴尬了。

It was cringe.

这太尴尬了，我觉得这可能和右翼一样有毒，甚至比右翼更有毒。

It was cringe, which which I think is is maybe equally toxic or maybe even more toxic than being right wing.

因为至少如果你是右翼，其他右翼女生可能会喜欢你。

Because at least if you're right wing, the other right wing chicks might like you.

但如果你很尴尬，就没有其他女生会喜欢你。

But if you're cringe, no no other chicks like you.

那你看过关于政治倾向的统计数据吗？

Well, have you seen the the stats on political orientation there?

根本不存在什么右翼女生。

There are no right wing chicks.

这就是问题所在。

This is the problem.

对吧？

Right?

我们，我们，我们，我们接下来要讨论……所以我想，是的。

We we we we're gonna get into So I guess Yeah.

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In other news, this episode is brought to you by RP Strength.

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This training app has made a huge impact on my gains and enjoyment in the gym over the last two years now.

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那就是 rpstrength.com/modernwisdom，结账时使用 Modern Wisdom 这个代码。

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给我一个使用这种建议的男生会让人感到尴尬的文章，几乎每个人都看过，你的意思是，很多支持者，甚至文章的作者，都会推崇但不会践行这种生活方式吗？

Give me just using that is having a boy boyfriend cringe article, which almost everybody saw, is it your suggestion that many of the proponents of that, perhaps even the author of that, is going to endorse but not follow that lifestyle?

因此，他们能够获得相对更高的繁殖成功率，相比那些不采取这种约会建议的人？

And because of that, they are able to gain from the relative reproductive success compared with the ones that don't get into relationships that take this dating advice?

我认为，理解谁赢谁输的平衡，真的很难。

I think that the so I think that understanding the balance of who wins and who loses, I think is really difficult.

因为问题是，你知道，你面对的是那种销售员。

Because this is the thing, you know you've got that salesman.

我总是称它为庞氏骗局，但它其实不是庞氏骗局。

I always call it a Ponzi scheme and it's not a Ponzi scheme.

它有个不同的名字。

It's got a different name.

但你知道那种销售技巧、商业模式，本质上是在推销某种形式的万能药。

But you know that sales technique, that business model, where you kind of sell what's effectively some form of snake oil.

对吧？

Right?

你向某人推销某种伪科学产品，但你成功地说服了他们

You sell some sort of snake oil to somebody, but the people you sell it to, you convince them sufficiently well

哦，这是多层次营销。

Oh, it's an MLM.

多层次营销。

Multilevel marketing.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

就是这样。

There we go.

所以你说服了他们，而他们随后变成了销售者。

And so you convince them and they then become the sellers.

因此，他们现在在销售蛇油，但他们相信这些蛇油。

So they're now selling snake oil, but they believe in the snake oil.

对吧？

Right?

同样的事情也发生在这些抑制繁殖的观念、想法，或者你愿意称它们为任何东西上。

So the same thing happens with these reproductively inhibiting, you know, memes, ideas, whatever you wanna call them.

许多推广这些观念的人也已经内化了它们，接受了它们，并真正地相信了它们。

Many of the people who are then promoting them have also embodied them and, you know, taken them on board and genuinely believed them.

但从进化角度来看，他们的游戏贡献仍未结束。

But from an evolutionary perspective, it's still you know, their contribution to the game has not finished.

所以，即使他们可能由于完全内化了这种意识形态，而实际上完全丧失了生育能力，最终生育数为零，这也不意味着他们就此结束了。

So even though they may be effectively, depending on how well they actually embody this particular ideology, potentially for their entire reproductive capacity and end up genuinely on zero, that doesn't mean they're done for.

只要他们有任何亲属，他们仍然可以提升自己基因的繁殖成功率。

They can still improve the reproductive success of their genes, assuming that they have relatives of any kind.

他们仍然可以通过继续向其他女性推广这种抑制生育的意识形态，来提高自身基因的繁殖成功率。

They can still improve the reproductive success of their genes by continuing to promote this reproductive suppressive ideology to other women.

因此，无论他们是赢家（即不会真正践行该意识形态的人）还是输家（即会践行的人），他们都会被选择去推广、传播并传递它。

So they would be selected for to promote it and sell it and pass it on irrespective really of whether they're a winner, someone who's not gonna embody it, or a loser, someone who is.

我想是的

I suppose

所以，任何支持这类东西的人——或者说，声称支持这类东西的人——实际上并不会告诉你他们采取的是哪种策略：是赢家策略，还是他们已被操纵、身处输家阵营。

So whoever someone, yeah, supports this stuff doesn't tell you or says they support this stuff doesn't actually tell you which strategy they're adopting, the winning strategy or that they've been manipulated and they're on the losing team.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，如果你真心信奉自己所宣扬的意识形态，那会让你的论点看起来更像是出自一种更具慈善性、更积极的立场，或者说能起到更好的掩护作用。

I suppose it makes for a much better smokescreen or it makes your argument seem like it's coming from a much more philanthropic, positive some place if you believe the ideology that you're espousing.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，我不知道你是否认识亚历克斯·库珀。

Like, for instance, I don't know whether you know Alex Cooper.

她主持一个名为《Call Her Daddy》的播客节目。

She does this podcast called Call Her Daddy.

我之前说过一些话，现在回想起来其实并不同意自己当时的观点。

I'd said some stuff about that I actually disagree with myself on in the past.

我认为她所处的环境一定非常艰难，她最初做这个播客时经常谈论随意性行为，比如和他上床但不动感情等等。

I think it must have been a very difficult world for her to be in where she started off doing this podcast talking a lot about casual sex, you'd sleep with him and not catch feels, etcetera.

就像典型的二十多岁年轻女孩那种随意性行为的话题。

Like, the classic twenties, like, young girl casual sex thing.

然后她一直在背后进行这种秘密恋情，直到有一天突然透露自己订婚了，并且积累了大量的播客节目，但她的说法是：他在玫瑰园向我求婚，场面很美，这是戒指，我现在要转向家庭生活了。

And then she was having this kind of secret relationship behind the scenes, and then one day kind of revealed that she was engaged and had this very big library of episodes, but was like, he proposed to me in a rose garden, and it was beautiful, and this is the ring, and I'm now doing the family pivot thing.

我认为在很长一段时间里，她除了‘我相信这个’之外，根本不会有其他想法。

I don't think that for a long time, she would have been thinking anything other than I believe in this.

我相信这个。

I believe in this.

就像，那个‘我’——她并不是，我认为，在欺骗。

Like, the the I she's not, I don't think, deceive.

这就是我事后改变自己之前说法的地方。

And this is where I changed sort of what I'd said retrospectively.

我不认为她是在有意鼓励女性这样行事。

I I don't think that she was going, I'm going to encourage women to behave in this way.

这只是一个非常有效的网络迷因。

It's just a pretty effective meme.

它听起来在某些方面非常积极。

It it sounds very positive some.

它比相反的观点更进步、更现代、更符合当代潮流，也更社会可接受，而相反的观点听起来则显得保守和资产阶级。

It's much more progressive and modern and contemporary and, sort of socially acceptable than the opposite, which kind of sounds restrictive and bourgeois.

然后你到了这样一个阶段：哦，我现在必须体现这种理念，但我的生活正把我推向另一个方向。

Like and then you get to the stage where, oh, I now need to embody this, and my life is pulling me in a different direction.

而正是在这个时候，事情变得真正有趣了，因为你开始说：我过去说过这么多话。

And that's the point at which it becomes really interesting because you say, I said all of this stuff in the past.

我现在还同意以前的自己吗？

Do I now still agree with me previously?

我是否希望我当时说了些不同的东西？

Do I wish that I'd said something different?

我当初说这些话的时候，是不是太激进了？

Do I was I too militant with the way that I was saying that stuff?

所以综合来看，我觉得这些都很有意思。

So all of that together, I thought was was pretty interesting.

但除此之外，还有一个角度，或许并不局限于异性恋关系的恋爱建议。

But one other angle to this, I suppose, that isn't necessarily dating advice for heterosexual relationships.

但我怀疑，精英女性对LGBT或非典型关系偏好的广泛支持，是否也是一种生育抑制？

But I wonder if the broad elite female support for LGBT or or or sort of nontypical relationship preferences is also a type of fertility suppression.

因为我觉得，有个男朋友或丈夫可能很尴尬，但我打赌，有个女朋友或妻子就不会尴尬。

Because I guess having a boyfriend or a husband might be cringe, but I bet that having a girlfriend or a wife wouldn't be cringe.

对。

Correct.

我完全同意。

I I agree 100%.

我之前曾提到过，我认为不仅仅是LGBTQ运动，还包括更广泛的社会趋势，以及跨性别主义本身，正是为什么我认为相关数据相当明确——几乎完全是女性强烈支持性别意识形态，并推动这种意识形态，因此它才在女性占主导的行业、职场等环境中得以盛行。

So I've I have spoken a little bit before how I think that the not just the the sort of LGBTQ movement, but the you know, broadly, which I think it is, but also transgenderism as well is also the reason why I think that the data on this are, I think, reasonably well known that it is almost by and large exclusively women who are really strongly in favour of gender ideology and are the pushes of gender ideology, which is why it has taken hold in industries and workplaces and whatever that are dominated by women.

我认为这同样是因为它具有明确的抑制生育的含义。

And I think that too is because it has very clear reproductive suppressive implications.

关于你提到的那个播客，如果我能再回溯一下，那确实引出了一个非常有趣的对立或对比。

It was really interesting what you were saying about that podcast, if I can go back to that for just a second, because that also raises a really interesting dichotomy or an interesting contrast.

这是因为对绝大多数女性而言，在生理上具备生育能力时，并不一定是繁殖的适应性时机。

And that is because that for the vast majority of women, it would not be adaptive to reproduce when you become biologically able to reproduce.

因此，在人类交配系统中，由于女性在生理上具备怀孕能力的时间远早于在大多数情况下实际适合生育的时间，从而产生了一种张力。

So there is this sort of tension amongst in the sort of human mating system that is created by the fact that women become biologically able to get pregnant long before it's actually adaptive necessarily for them to do so under most circumstances.

当然，也存在某些情况下，生育是适应性的。

There are circumstances where it would be adaptive.

但在大多数情况下，这样做并不具备适应性。

But under most circumstances, it's not adapted to do that.

因此，女性确实会经历一个阶段，在这个阶段中，自我抑制生育、主动抑制繁殖行为是合乎逻辑的。

And so women do definitely have a stage of life where it actually makes sense for them to engage in self reproductive suppression and to be discouraging themselves.

而且显然，这过去表现为——

And obviously, and that used to manifest-

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

这过去表现为鼓励年轻女孩不要发生性行为。

That used to manifest in encouraging, you know, young girls not to have sex effectively.

但现在它以完全不同的方式表现出来。

But now it's sort of manifests in quite different ways.

所以我们现在面临一种情况，系统中已经内置了——

And so we've actually got a situation where there is already built into the system.

存在一个性成熟期，在这个时期，尽管女性已经具备生育能力，但从长期的终身生殖成功率来看，在大多数情况下，女性在此时怀孕反而是不利的。因此，我并不是从交叉竞争的视角来看待这个问题。

There is this period of sexual maturity in which it's actually adaptive for women you know, to even though they are capable of reproducing, would actually be, you know, in terms of their long term lifetime reproductive success, it would under most circumstances for most women be maladaptive to get pregnant during that time And so it's not therefore, me, looking at things through an intersectional competition lens.

这完全不令人惊讶，因为女权主义和妇女解放运动正是将这个时期作为目标，鼓励女性大量参与高风险的性行为，因为这是唯一一个你实际上不希望怀孕的时期。

It's completely unsurprising that that is the time period that feminism and women's lib has targeted as encouraging women to really, really heavily engage in risky sexual behavior, because that is the one time period in which you don't actually want to get pregnant.

因此，当我们讨论婚姻中的性关系时，这些同样的女权主义言论者就会出现。

And so we then see these same women's lib feminist type talking heads when it comes to talking about sex within marriage.

突然间，这变成了无偿劳动和情感劳动，是一种压迫。

All of a sudden, that's unpaid labor and emotional labor, and that's oppressive.

你知道，丈夫没有权利向妻子要求性生活。

And, you know, husbands have no right to demand sex off their wives.

但当你二十出头、未婚时，和每一个靠近你三英尺内的男人发生关系，这却被视为某种解放。

And yet when you're in your early twenties and unmarried, sleeping with every single man that gets within three feet of you, apparently that's some form of liberation.

这是一个有趣的矛盾。

It's an interesting dichotomy.

另一个值得思考的有趣问题是，始终都存在关注。

The other really interesting thing that it raises that's also worth thinking about is that there is actually always attention.

当你想刻意传递某种信号时，最好的方式就是去做它、看起来像在做它，或显得你在做它。

When you want to signal something manipulatively, the best way to signal it is to do it or to look like you're doing it or to appear like you're doing it.

当然，最有效的方式就是真的去这么做。

And of course, the most effective way to appear like you're doing it is to actually do it.

因此，任何一种操纵性的信号在某种意义上都可能对信号发送者造成成本，因为他们必须一定程度上对自己这样做，以说服对手以更大的程度对自己这样做。

So any kind of manipulative signal in some sense is potentially costly to the signaler because they need to do this to themselves to some extent in order to convince their rivals to do it to themselves to a greater extent.

因此，当女性参与这种操纵性信号传递时，她们必须应对一种危险且极其危险的成本收益矩阵。

And so there is this dangerous, very dangerous sort of cost benefit payoff matrix that women have to navigate when they're engaging in this type of manipulative signalling.

一些操纵性信号发送者可能会严重误判这种成本收益计算，仅仅过度地实施操纵行为，付出远超自身承受能力的代价，从而实际上给自己造成了巨大的损失。

And some manipulative signallers might just really, really get that cost benefit calculation very wrong and simply just engage in the manipulative behavior, the the costly signal to a much greater extent than they can tolerate and and, you know, effectively score a massive own goal.

给我举个例子，这种情况可能如何表现。

Give me give me an example of how that might manifest.

所以，回到那些在二十岁出头就接受绝育手术，然后在社交媒体上大肆宣扬的女性的例子。

So it it's so going back to the example of women who are getting themselves sterilized in their early twenties and then shouting all over it on social media.

我特别记得有一个女孩，她把自己的输卵管用树脂固定起来，戴在脖子上当项链，以便向每一个遇到的人展示：这些是她的所有物。

And there was there was one instance in particular I remember of a girl who got her tubes set into resin so she could wear them around her neck as a necklace so that she could tell everybody she met that they were her belongings.

天哪。

Jesus Christ.

是的。

Yeah.

可怜的女孩。

Poor girl.

不过，但你看，我认为这显然是一个女性在异性竞争中彻底失败的例子。

Anyway but but but see, I imagine that is, you know, and that is potentially and that is clearly a case of a woman who has now lost the intersexual competition going.

这简直就是自取其辱。

That is just a massive own goal right there.

完了。

It's finished.

结束了。

It's over.

但我认为，人们倾向于以这种方式行事，做出这种宏大的社交姿态，比如‘是的，我永远不会要孩子’。

But I imagine that the tendency behave in these types of ways and to do these grand social gestures of, oh, yes, I'm never going to have children.

孩子太糟糕了。

Children are terrible.

你不该选择这样的生活道路。

That's not the life path that you should choose.

这不是我选择的人生道路。

It's not the life path I've chosen.

女性面临强大的选择压力，必须高度参与同性竞争，被迫做出这些宏大的姿态，这可能会导致她们做出类似让自己——

The selective pressure on women to be highly intrasexually competitive women, to be compelled to engage in these kinds of grand gestures, would potentially lead them to do things like get themselves-

对，她们过度了。

Right, they overshoot.

没错。

Exactly.

她们严重过度了，因为这些机制并没有进化到能应对每一个单独的信号行为或可能出现的机会。

They're massively overshoot because the mechanisms have not evolved to deal with every individual instance of signalling behaviour, you know, opportunity that might present itself.

因此，那些原本旨在有效促进操纵性信号的行为机制，实际上可能对自身造成巨大伤害。

And so what could be engaged in, you know, motivated by mechanisms that evolved to effectively promote manipulative signalling, might actually do the self a lot of harm.

对。

Right.

这些机制并不关心它们自身的后果。

Those mechanisms are not sensitive to their own outcomes.

好的。

Okay.

所以

So

所以我们有被操纵的失败者，还有一些本质上是在游戏中自我击败的人。

So we've got manipulated losers, and we've got people who basically, you know, beat themselves in the game.

是的。

Yeah.

失败者有两种类型。

There's two types of losers.

你之前说这是一个巨大的乌龙球。

So you said you said it's a massive own goal.

再说一遍，我认为有必要重申一下，当你说到乌龙球时，指的是进化所关注的那类资源。

Again, I think it's worth restating that what you mean when you say own goal is in terms of the currency that evolution cares about.

对。

Correct.

因为如果你看看当代文化，人们可能会说，她做了结扎又有什么关系呢？

Because if you take contemporary culture, people might say, what does it matter that she's got her tubes tied?

她想有多少性生活就可以有多少。

She can have as much sex as she wants.

她不需要担心育儿问题。

She doesn't need to worry about childcare.

她不需要操心她的保姆。

She doesn't need to worry about her nanny.

她可以工作，也可以外出，而且永远不会怀孕。

She can work, and she can go out, and she's never gonna get pregnant.

这听起来像是自由。

Like, that sounds like liberation.

这听起来像是自由。

It sounds like liberation.

我的观点是，这其实并不是自由，而且我并不是唯一这么认为的人。

I mean, I would argue that it's not, and and and I'm not the only person who argues that it's not.

我的意思是，我认为路易丝·佩里很好地论证了，那些从事这种行为的女性通常并不真正快乐。

I mean, I think that I mean, I think Louise Perry has done a a pretty good job of mounting the argument that women who engage in that type of behavior are typically not actually very happy.

事实上，她们相当痛苦。

In fact, they're quite miserable.

再往前看更晚的人生阶段，因为这种现象已经持续了足够长的时间，我们现在确实看到一批女性已经走到了生育年龄之后，才意识到自己错失了人生中一件极其重要的事，如今感到痛苦、抑郁和不幸福，因为她们终于明白，这类人生选择会把人引向何方。

And fast forwarding to much later points in life, because this has now been going on for long enough, that we have you know, we do have cohorts of women who are at the end of their you know, beyond the end of their reproductive years and who are now realising that they've seriously missed a really important boat and are miserable and depressed and unhappy, having, you know, sort of realised where these types of life choices lead you.

所以，我谈的是这些决定在进化层面的后果，从生殖角度看，这显然是个乌龙球。

And so, yeah, I'm speaking in terms of the, you know, the evolutionary consequences of these decisions, and that is a, reproductively speaking, obviously, own goal.

但这并不仅仅是一些抽象的进化计算。

But it's not that that is just some esoteric evolutionary calculation.

这些决定也对女性的现实生活产生了切实影响，而这些影响，我认为本该早就被预测到不会是净收益。

These decisions have real life impacts on women as well, which we are now which, I mean, really, I think should have predicted they weren't going to be a net positive.

但现在我们已经看到，它们绝对不是净收益。

But now we are seeing that they are absolutely not a net positive.

因此，这些决定对做出这些选择的女性个体也产生了切实的、直接的影响，但这些影响通常并不好。

So these are absolutely having, you know, real life individual proximate impacts on the women who take these decisions as well, but that generally don't seem to be good ones.

听到随意性行为被视为女性性解放的一种形式，而与丈夫的性行为却被视为无偿劳动、压迫或奴役，这种双重标准真的很耐人寻味。

It is a fascinating duality to hear that casual sex is a form of sexual female liberation, but sex with your husband is unpaid labor or it's oppressive or subjugative or whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

这些观点之间的双重性确实非常有趣。

It it is really interesting, the the the duality of these things.

我有个问题。

I I have a question.

不管从资源角度来说，试图实施生殖抑制策略在进化上是否有用，这些策略对男性有效吗？

Do do regardless of whether or not it would be evolutionarily useful from a resource perspective to try and do, do reproductive suppression strategies work against men?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's an excellent question.

我想这个问题可以分两部分来回答。

So I would so I I think there's a there's a two part answer.

第一部分，总体来说是否定的，原因我们之前已经描述过了。

And the the first part is generally no because of the reasons we've already already described.

所以在有限的情况下，当你作为一个男人，想要真正获得对方的伴侣，也就是你打算去‘偷配’。

So in the limited circumstance where you where as a as a man, you are looking to actually get the partner of arrival, so you're looking to mate poach.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，伤害另一个男人潜在的繁殖成果，对他做一些事情，可能会对你有帮助——如果这些行为能破坏他的关系，就像女性之间互相破坏彼此的关系一样。

Then harming another man's potential reproductive output and doing things to him might help you if it helps destroy that sabotaging his relationship the way women sabotage each other's relationship.

这可能会对你有帮助。

That might help you.

但再次强调，你这样做的原因并不是真的关心他的繁殖成功率，而是因为你已经决定，出于某种原因，想要他的伴侣。

But again, the reason you're doing that is not really because you care about his reproductive success, because you've decided you want his partner for whatever reason.

所以，正如我们之前讨论的，其他男人可以填补空缺，而且男性自身几乎无法对整体人口的繁殖率产生实质性影响，这意味着回报矩阵并不存在。

So for the reasons we talked about before, the fact that other men can pick up the slack, the fact that there's very little men can do within themselves to actually move the dial on the population's background reproductive rate just means that the payoff matrix isn't there.

然而，我认为这个答案还有第二部分。

However, there's a second part, I think, to that answer.

那就是，如果我们稍微向前推演，或者更好的说法是，从更宏观的角度来看。

And that is if we fast forward a little bit, or maybe better way, zoom out a little bit.

而我们目前的思考和讨论主要集中在个体与个体之间、多人对一人或一人对多人的互动上。

And instead of thinking at the moment, we've sort of thought and spoken mostly about this being kind of an individual on individual interaction or many on one or one on many.

但一旦你达到了我所认为的我们当前所处的生殖抑制阶段，也就是说，我知道你意识到出生率远低于替代水平并且正在下降。

But once you reach the stage of reproductive suppression that I argue that we're at, so, you know, I know that you're aware that the birth rate is well below replacement level and is declining.

而我的观点是，这种现象本身就是由操纵性的生殖抑制造成的，这实际上是我们所见现象的终极解释。

And my argument is that is in itself is because of manipulative reproductive suppression, that that is in fact the ultimate explanation for what we're seeing.

我认为，一旦你真正达到这个阶段，男性或许就会开始看到参与自身类型生殖抑制的好处。

And I think that once you actually reach that point, then you perhaps do get to see a benefit to men of engaging in their own type

哦，因为

of Oh, because

你的生殖抑制。

you're reproductive suppression.

你的手段已经足够强大，能够以足够广泛的规模实施，这或许真的会奏效。

Your weapon is now sufficiently powerful that you're able to do it at a broad enough scale that this might actually work.

但我们不会有一个进化的机制。

But how would that we we we wouldn't have an evolved mechanism.

作为男性，我们的本能中根本不会有这种认知能力。

We wouldn't have anything in our programming as men to be able to understand that.

我们不可能如此迅速地适应这种全新的情况。

Surely, we can't adapt to a novel situation that quickly.

这是个非常好的观点。

That's a really good point.

正因如此，我的观点是，这并不是一种全新的情况。

And that's why I don't that's why my argument is that this is not a novel situation.

我们现在所经历的低生育率、女权主义理想的兴起以及制度的女性化，都是如此。

This is actually so what we're experiencing now with birth rate decline and the the rise of feminist ideals and the feminization of the institutions.

所有这些，都是在一种又一种文明中反复出现的模式的一部分。

All of this is part of a repeated pattern that we see in civilization after civilization after civilization.

这并不是一个仅在西方出现的独特怪异问题，也不是由我们所处的特定社会和技术力量所引发的。

This is not a unique idiosyncratic issue that has appeared in the West as a function of the particular social and technological forces that we sort of find ourselves living with.

这实际上就是人类的交配系统。

This is actually this is the human mating system.

它会经历这些周期。

It goes through these cycles.

所以，实际上，是的，我们以前来过这里，并且一直存在选择压力。

And so, actually, yes, we have been here before, and there has been selection pressure operating.

这实际上是这个系统，这不是一个错误。

And this is actually the system this is not this is not a bug.

这是系统按预期在运行。

This is the system operating as intended.

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Go to the link in the description below or head to jim.sh/modernwisdom.

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当你说到我们以前来过这里时，据我所知，我们从未真正见过生育率长期低于更替水平。

When you say we have been here before, as far as I'm aware, we haven't really seen birth rates decline really ever below replacement.

曾发生过一些情况

There's been incidents

不，没有。

where No.

那不是对的。

That's not yeah.

不对。

No.

那不对。

That's not true.

因此，生育率下降确实是被指出的、标志着文明衰退与瓦解的一系列现象之一，就像我们看到性行为成本下降、艺术变得更大胆、结婚率下降、生育率下降一样。

So, certainly, declining birth rates, are part of the the sort of suite of things that that have been sort of pointed to as things that we see in civilisations that are declining and degrading and reaching their end point, same as we see the price of sex going down and art becoming bolder, we see marriage rates declining, we see birth rates declining.

所以罗马，在其接近尾声时，稍微早于彻底终结的阶段，就已经实施了许多我们称之为‘婴儿奖金’的政策，试图激励女性结婚生子，因为当时的生育率下降得非常严重。

So Rome, towards its very end, a little bit earlier than its very end, but it had many policies in place of we're calling a baby bonus, to try to motivate women to get married and to have children because the fertility rate was declining so severely.

而罗马发生的情况，我敢猜测与现在正在发生的类似，就是生育率急剧下降，主要是因为女性选择解放自己、追求自由、不结婚、不当母亲，而去发展事业等等。

And what happened in Rome, and I would hazard a guess it's a similar thing that's happening now, is the birth rate declined sharply, primarily because the women were choosing to be liberated and to be free and to not be married and to not be mothers and to have careers and everything else.

这样一来，你知道，就只剩下相对较少的女性生育相对较少的孩子，这意味着那些女性能够在一定程度上挑选男性。

And that left, you know, a relatively small number of women having a relatively small number of children, which meant that those women were able to have sort of their pick of men.

因此，男性的生殖成功率，在某种程度上女性也是如此，但尤其是男性的生殖成功，变得仅限于最顶尖的男性精英阶层。

And so reproductive success amongst men, especially to some extent amongst women as well, but especially amongst men became restricted to the very elite of men.

而其余的男性基本上就被排除在外了。

And the rest of men just basically got kicked out.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

所以，那种反家庭、反伴侣关系、反婚配的文化调整，对女性的影响比对男性更大。

So women were that cultural adjustment, which was, anti family, anti coupling, anti mating, affected women more than it affected men.

很多男性希望交配，但女性这么做的却较少。

Many men wanted to mate, but fewer women did.

这基本上扭曲了性别比例，使女性拥有更多权力，同时也让高地位男性获得比以往更多的权力，就像高个子女孩的问题一样。

And that basically skewed the sex ratio so that women had more power, but also so that the high, as happens with the tall girl problem, the high status men also relative get more power than they would have done.

好的。

Okay.

因此，生殖抑制可能对男性不利。

So reproductive suppression may work against men.

我们还不确定这种机制在进化上有多根深蒂固。

We're not quite sure how ingrained that mechanism would be evolutionarily.

相比之下，在这方面影响女性更容易。

So comparatively, it's easier to influence women in this regard.

那么，为什么女性没有发展出应对这种状况的防御机制呢？

Why is it the case then that women haven't developed a defense mechanism to this?

比如，既然我们已经知道这种脆弱性存在，为什么还要留下这个钥匙孔？要知道，从女性到男性的转变数量是男性到女性的五倍之多。

Like, why would you leave the keyhole in there if that vulnerability we already know, what is it, f to m is, like, five times as many transitions as m to f.

ROGD，也就是快速发作的性别不安现象。

The ROGD, rapid onset gender dysphoria thing.

女性

Women

饮食失调和社会传染也是如此吗？

Eating disorder, social contagions as well?

是的。

Yeah.

社会传染的现象，尤其是在青春期。

The social contagion thing is that, especially during puberty.

对吧？

Right?

我正在环顾四周。

I'm looking around.

我正在观察周围环境。

I'm scanning my environment.

我会留意什么流行、什么热门、什么不流行。

I'm vigilant for what's cool, what's hot, what's not.

我必须确保自己跟上潮流。

I need to make sure that I'm on trend.

为什么人类进化没有修复这个缺陷，让女性不会容易受影响呢？

Why would human evolution not patch that bug so that females wouldn't be susceptible to this?

因为这显然是最终极的游戏。

Because surely that would be the ultimate game.

我就像是一个繁殖机器，不管你告诉我什么，都无法限制或抑制我的生育能力。

Like, I I'm just a reproduction machine, and you can't limit you can't suppress my fertility no matter what you tell me.

因为这根本不是缺陷，而是一种特性。

Because the because it's not a bug, it's a feature.

而这正是问题所在。

And this this is the this is the problem.

所以对那些失败的女性来说，这确实是个缺陷，但失败的女性，她们的基因并不会被传递下去。

So it's a it's a bug for the for the women who lose, but the women who lose, it's not their genes that get passed on.

对于那些参与这种行为并取得成功的女性来说，这是一种优势，因为它促进了她们的生殖成功。

For the women who win, who are engaging in this behavior, it's a feature because it promotes their reproductive success.

因此，这些基因得以延续。

And so the genes perpetuate.

这难道不会表明吗，是的。

Would would that not suggest yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I I I totally right.

没错。

Yeah.

那么，这是否意味着我们是那些对这类事情最不敏感或最不易受影响的女性的后代？因为这些女性的基因没有被传递下来，即使她们可能确实具备这些特质

Would that not suggest then that we are the progeny of the women who are the less or the least susceptible to these sorts of things, given that they are the genes of the ones who didn't necessarily embody even if they maybe did

认可？

endorse?

是的。

Yes.

有可能。

Potentially.

但让这种现象变得合理的另一部分系统是，当人类文明进入这样的循环时。

But the other the other part of the sort of system that makes this make sense is that when is that human civilizations have got like this cycle.

因此，我们只有在特定情况下才能观察到这种女性操纵性的生殖抑制行为。

And so we only are able to see this type of female manipulative reproductive suppression that we see now under certain circumstances.

而这些情况包括富裕和安全。

And those circumstances include affluence and safety.

因此，当社会不够富裕、不够安全时，这种行为的收益矩阵就不存在了。

And so when you've got societies that are not very affluent and not very safe, then the payoff matrix isn't there.

女性会将她们所有资源以及所能获得的资源全部投入到自身的繁殖和后代身上。

Women are investing all of the resources that they have and all of the resources that they get to accrue into their own reproduction and into their own offspring.

一旦我们进入有组织社会的富裕阶段，女性就有了机会积累超过自身基本需求的资源。

It's once you get to a point where we have the affluence of organized society that women have an opportunity to be able to accrue more resources than what they just need to pour in.

你会遇到一种边际收益递减的规律。

You get like a a a law of diminishing returns.

精英女性能够有效积累的资源，已经不再适合全部投入于自身的繁殖成功率了。

You you the resources that the elite women are effectively able to accrue, they no longer it's no longer, you know, adapted to just keep pouring all of those into their own individual reproductive success.

现在，将时间、精力和资源更多地用于对竞争对手的生殖抑制，变得越来越有利。

It now becomes more and more adaptive to start pouring this this time, effort, and energy into manipulative reproductive suppression of rivals.

社会越富裕、越安全，这种倾向就越明显。

And the more affluent and the safer the society gets, the the the more the scales tip in that way.

因此，由于这种策略并非在所有情况下都具有适应性，它不会达到固定状态，如果你愿意这么说的话。

So because this is not an adaptive strategy under all circumstances, it doesn't reach fixation, if you like.

所以，最终你所看到的是——根据我的理论，我应该谨慎地说明，因为我所说的很多内容，并不是其他人会达成共识的类型。

So it's and so what you sort of end up with is, well, according to my theory, I should probably be careful to preface that because not everything, much of what I'm saying is not the sort of thing that you will be finding other people reaching any kind of consensus on.

我认为，大多数人会认为这些观点相当激进。

Like that's, I think I think most people understand that's pretty far out stuff.

但在我看来，这场游戏的赢家实际上进入了一种遗传瓶颈。

But according to the way I see it, the winners of this game enter a effectively enter a sort of genetic bottleneck.

因此，随着生育率下降且远低于替代水平，有效交配群体的规模实际上远小于实际人口规模。

So as fertility rates drop and the fertility rates are well below replacement, then the size of the mating pool is actually much the effective population size is much smaller than the actual population size.

所以，这可能并不一定表现为明显的遗传瓶颈，因为我们并没有看到人口的急剧下降。

So it may not necessarily look like a genetic bottleneck because we're not actually necessarily seeing a massive population crash.

但当大量人口中的女性——即大量女性——不生育时，这似乎正是正在发生的情况。

But when large numbers of the population, large numbers of women in the population are not reproducing, and that does appear to be what's happening.

我认为，有孩子的女性的生育数量可能会略有下降。

So I think there might be modest falls amongst women who have children.

我认为她们所生孩子的数量可能略有减少，但我认为这一数字总体上仍保持稳定。

I think there might be sort of modest falls in the number of children they're having, but I think that's largely being maintained.

导致出生率大幅下降的原因，是不生育的女性数量大幅增加。

What's causing or what's sort of accounting for the large fall in birth rates is the is the massive increase in the number of women having no children.

因此，我们看到大量女性实际上正在退出生育

So what we're seeing is large numbers of women actually withdrawing themselves

从他们的基因中退出。

from their genes.

如果你有一个孩子，你很可能有2.5个，但完全不生育的女性比例，才是导致出生率下降的主要群体。

If you have one, the likelihood is you have 2.5, but the number, the proportion of women who don't have one at all, that is the big cohort that's contributing to birth rate decline.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我们是否有可能在公开场合进行这类讨论而不招致批评？

Is it possible to have these sorts of conversations publicly without getting heat.

可以。

Yes.

实际上，几乎不可能进行这类讨论。

It is it is almost impossible to have these types of conversations.

我认为，我至今尚未遭遇任何严重 backlash 的唯一原因，只是因为曝光度还不够。

And, look, I think the I'll I'll the sole explanation, I would say, for me not yet having sort of really encountered any serious blowback is just lack of exposure.

曝光度。

Exposure.

对吧？

Right?

你说得对，这很可能改变。

And you're right, that may well change.

然后关注这个。

And look after this.

那就这样吧。

So be it.

没关系。

That's fine.

没关系。

That's fine.

你知道，直到现在我的生活一直很平淡。

You know, my life's been boring up until now.

为什么不找点乐子呢？

Why not have some fun?

太好了。

Wonderful.

但不行，你不能这么做。

But no, you can't.

我认为其中一个原因，也是主要原因之一，就是根据我的理论，我们无法就生育率下降、母职和生育问题展开这样的对话，也许其他关于两性竞争的方面能更直接地引起女性共鸣，让她们理解和感同身受。

And I think one of the reasons, I think one of the main reasons why you Well, according to my theory, one of the main reasons why we can't have this particular conversation about birth rate declines, motherhood and reproduction, maybe other aspects of intersexual competition speak to more women directly and they can empathise with it and they can understand it.

但一旦你开始谈论生育率下降，特别是女性生育孩子的问题，你就直接触及了问题的核心。

But once you start talking about birth rate decline and you start talking about women having children in particular, you're cutting straight through to the heart of the issue.

其他所有事情都只是外围的。

Everything else is just peripheral.

其他所有事情都只是服务于生育率下降的。

Everything else is just in service of birth rate decline.

所有其他女性两性竞争的方面，最终都只是服务于生育率下降的。

All the other aspects of female intersexual competition, they're just ultimately in service of birth rate decline.

给女性提供糟糕的恋爱建议，这样她们要么会陷入糟糕的恋爱关系，要么根本没有恋爱关系，这大大降低了她们生育或至少成功生育的可能性。

Giving women poor relationship advice, that's so that they will have either poor relationships or no relationships, which greatly reduces the likelihood of them reproducing or at least reproducing successfully.

因为我确信你知道，统计数据清楚地显示了父亲缺失对孩子造成的代价。

Because I'm sure you're aware that the stats are pretty clear on the costs of fatherlessness to children.

总体来看，缺乏父亲陪伴的孩子在各个方面的结果都系统性且显著更差。

The outcomes are just systematically, substantially worse across the board for fatherless children.

因此，如果你能鼓励女性采取那些导致她们成为单身母亲的行为，这虽然不如让她们完全不生育那么好，但也相当不错了。

And so if you can encourage women to engage in behaviors that result in them being single mothers, that's not quite as good as resulting in them being not mothers at all, but it's pretty good.

这是一种相当有效的方式来损害她们最终的繁殖成功率。

It's a pretty good way to damage their ultimate reproductive success.

所以我们可以讨论所有其他问题，有时还能从中获得一些乐趣。

So we can talk about all the other issues and sometimes we can have a little bit of fun with it.

人们对我做的那项关于发型的研宄很感兴趣，研究发现女性会建议其他女性剪掉更多头发，并且她们最强烈地针对那些被认为与自己同样有吸引力的女性，就像她们在择偶市场上的直接竞争对手一样。

People had a lot of fun with that haircut study that I did where women will advise other women to cut off more hair, and they focus this kind of most strongly towards women that are perceived to be as attractive as they are, so like they're direct rivals on the mating market.

我们可以从这类对话中获得一些乐趣，有时我也可以和女权主义者就某些事情开开玩笑。

And we can have a little bit of fun with these types of conversations, and I can have a little bit of fun with feminists sometimes about certain things.

但一旦你开始讨论生育率和母职问题，你就触及了核心，而这就不那么有趣了。

But once you get down to talking about birth rates in children and motherhood, now you're getting to the heart of the issue, and that's not fun anymore.

这时你成了对这一策略终极目标的严重威胁，会令女性非常愤怒。

Now you're a serious threat to the ultimate reason for the strategy, and it gets women very angry.

本集由WHOOP赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by WHOOP.

我佩戴WHOOP已经超过五年了，早在它成为节目合作伙伴之前。

I have been wearing WHOOP for over five years now, before they were a partner on the show.

根据应用数据显示，我已经用它追踪了超过一千六百天的生活，这简直不可思议。

I've actually tracked over sixteen hundred days of my life with it according to the app, which is insane.

它是唯一一款我坚持使用的可穿戴设备，因为它追踪了所有重要的数据：睡眠、锻炼、恢复、呼吸、心率，甚至步数。

And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters, sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps.

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And the new five point o is the best version.

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You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable, 7% smaller, but now it's also got a fourteen day battery life and has HealthSpan to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging.

它还为女性提供荷尔蒙洞察功能。

It's got hormonal insights for ladies.

我是Whoop的超级粉丝。

I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop.

这就是为什么它是唯一一款我一直坚持使用的可穿戴设备。

That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with.

最重要的是，你可以免费加入。

And best of all, you can join for free.

你无需支付任何费用即可获得全新的Whoop 5.0手环，而且第一个月免费，并且提供30天无理由退款保障。

Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop five point o strap, plus you get your first month for free, and there's a thirty day money back guarantee.

所以你可以免费拥有它。

So you can buy it for free.

免费试用一下吧。

Try it for free.

如果你在第29天后还不满意，他们会全额退款。

If you do not like it after twenty nine days, they just give you your money back.

现在，你可以通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问 join.whoop.com/modernwisdom 来获取全新的 WHOOP 5.0 设备和为期三十天的试用。

Right now, you can get the brand new WHOOP five point o and that thirty day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.

网址是 join.whoop.com/modernwisdom。

That's join.woop.com/modernwisdom.

你如何看待女性被其他女性鼓励进入职场？这如何影响你的观点？

What is your perspective on women being encouraged to enter the workplace by other women, how that plays into your perspective here?

所以，是的，我认为她那场演讲以及她写的那篇文章，还有她参与的几期播客，都非常出色。

So, yeah, so I think that is I I think that talk by her and then the essay she wrote, she's done a couple of podcasts.

我的意思是，这真的太棒了。

I mean, I think that was fantastic.

她所说的大部分内容几乎都是完全正确的。

So she's I mean, she's almost a 100% correct in most everything that she says.

她对职场环境的所有观察，以及她提到的当女性达到一定数量时会发生的变化。

All of the observations that she makes about workplaces, what she says happens when women reach a critical mass.

我认为她曾经强调过——如果我没记错的话——当职场中女性比例超过50%时，就是一个转折点。

I think at some point she did, I think, emphasise, if I remember correctly, that the points in time where these workplaces became more than 50% female, and that she pointed that as the tipping point.

我们在这一点上有些微小的分歧。

And we have a small point of difference there.

我认为，不需要女性在职场中达到50%的比例，也能让这些变化开始发生。

I think that you don't need women to be at 50% in workplaces to get the ball rolling, to see these changes begin to emerge.

女性推动职场变革的机制并非民主式的，因此她们不需要民主多数就能实现这些改变。

Women don't need to be at those The mechanisms by which women use to make these changes in the workplace are not democratic, and so they don't need a democratic majority to do it.

我认为，女性形成关键少数的比例实际上要低得多，她们能够有效影响男性和女性同事，从而在达到50%之前就促成这些变化。

I think the critical mass of women is actually substantially lower in their ability to manipulate both their male and female colleagues allows these sorts of things to happen well before you actually get to the 50%.

所以，这是一个小小的分歧。

So that's a small point of difference.

但除此之外，她关于职场中正在发生的事情、以及这些变化源于女性比例的论述，我认为完全正确、精准到位。

But everything that she was saying other than that, I think about what's happening in these workplaces and the fact that it's because of the proportion of women in them, think is absolutely 100% bang on.

而且我觉得，她能获得如此大的影响力，成功开启了一场对话，这真是太棒了——而这场对话，我认为人们之前要么不愿、要么无法真正启动。

And I think, and it's fantastic that she got, you know, that they got so much traction that she was able to effectively start a conversation on something, which I think people had been either unwilling or unable to really get a conversation started on.

而且我觉得，或许正是因为她是女性，才敢于站出来这样说。

And I think maybe the fact that that she was a woman coming out saying that

哦，天啊。

Oh, god.

该死。

Fuck.

如果这篇文章是一个男人写的，那肯定会彻底完蛋。

If a man had written that article, it would have been absolute death.

但我的意思是，你看。

But I mean, look.

你是一个女性，可以

You're you're a woman who

我被允许

is I'm allowed

这么做。

to do that.

而且事业有成。

Who is professionally accomplished.

女性能够进入职场，拥有自己的事业，经济独立，拥有自己的生活，所有这些难道不是一件好事吗？

Is it not a good thing for women to be able to get into the workplace, to be able to have their own careers, be financially independent, have a life, all of that?

这取决于你所说的‘好’是什么意思。

Depends what you mean by good.

这取决于你所说的‘好’是什么意思。

Depends what you mean by good.

所以，关于人类……如果我们从基本原则出发来考虑社会，为了让社会能够发展并保持健康，它们需要良好地繁衍，为了存在，它们至少需要达到人口更替水平的繁衍。

So, of about human So if we societies from first principles for a moment, in order for societies to grow and stay healthy, they need to reproduce well, in order to exist, they need to reproduce at least replacement.

理想情况下，他们需要成长。

Ideally, they they need to to grow.

对吧？

Right?

增长对繁荣至关重要，这意味着他们需要以高于更替水平的速率进行繁衍。

Growth is great for prosperity, which means they need to reproduce at above replacement.

现在，根据繁衍的成本，你知道，在我们这样的社会里，个人能够相当容易地积累成功繁衍所需的资源。

Now depending on the costs of reproduction, you know, in a society like ours, individual people are able to accrue the resources needed for successful reproduction quite easily.

在过去的 societies 中，生殖成功相对要昂贵得多。

And in societies gone past, reproductive success was relatively much more expensive.

而这些多余的财富正是我们出现大规模生殖抑制现象的原因之一。

And all that excess wealth is one of the reasons why we have this massive manipulative reproductive suppression.

但如果你身处一个社会，需要维持对生殖的投资，以确保生育率保持在替代水平以上，从而维持繁荣。

But so if you're in a society where you need to maintain an investment in reproduction that will ensure that the reproductive rate stays at above replacement levels in order to continue prosperity.

而你社会中的女性——她们基本上是决定你生殖产出上限的人——选择将一定的时间、精力和资源投入到非生殖活动中，导致你的社会无法达到维持繁荣所需的生育水平，这是一件好事还是坏事？

And the women in your population who are the ones who basically are the limiters on your reproductive output decide to invest a certain amount of time and effort and energy in non reproductive activities such that it becomes impossible for your society to reproduce at the levels required to maintain prosperity, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

这是社会的终结。

It's the end of it's the end of the society.

这个社会根本无法自我维持。

The society simply cannot sustain itself.

但没有个体，没有

But no individual no

是的。

yeah.

不，没有哪个个体愿意为了服务社会而放弃那些看似令人兴奋且能带来独立感的事情，这简直就像一种社会性的生殖征用——你要求我不能做这件事，因为世界文明需要我成为一个生育机器。

No no individual is gonna think I'm going to not do the thing that seems exciting and independence enabling to me in order for me to serve it feels almost like like some kind of social reproductive conscription that you're asking me to do where I don't get to do this thing because what the the the world's civilization needs me to be a birthing machine.

女权主义确实出色地确保了人们以这种方式思考。

So feminism has certainly done a really stellar job of making sure that that's the way people think.

而且，对此我们要给予肯定。

And, you know, props to it.

但暂且抛开对个体的强制要求，因为我们完全可以提出同样的观点。

But forgetting about the imposition of individual people for a moment, because we could say exactly the same thing.

事实上，我认为我们还可以更多地讨论男性为维持文明繁荣所需承担的责任。

In fact, well, I think we could say much more about what's needed about the male commitment to keep a civilisation profiting.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，你是否认为，女性必须生育孩子、组建家庭才能让文明繁荣，这可能是个坏消息？

I mean, you think that it might be bad news for women that they need to have children and families in order for civilization to prosper.

那么，为了文明的繁荣，男性又需要做些什么呢？

Well, what do men need to do in order for civilization to prosper?

他们需要拼命工作，经常死亡，被派去打仗。

They need to work themselves to the bone, frequently die, get sent off to war.

如果文明要繁荣，男性的处境可一点都不轻松。

Like, if civilization is gonna prosper, men have got a pretty raw deal.

所以，并不是说男性过得轻松自在，而女性却要承担某种负担。

So it's not as though it's not as though, you know, we're talking about it's, you know, it's all fun and games for men and women have to carry some sort of burden.

所以，如果我们暂时放下这一点，仅仅回答这个问题：一个社会如果朝着在几代人之后自我毁灭的方向发展，这是好事还是坏事？

So if we're able to put that bit aside for a moment, even just answering the question of, is it good or is it bad if a society moves in a direction that effectively dooms that society after a couple of generations?

这是好事还是坏事？

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

这个问题并不容易回答。

That's not an easy question to answer.

如果你的观点是，对于当前社会中的人来说，这样更好，因为他们能过上更有趣的生活。

If your argument is that, well, it's better for the individuals who are in that society at the moment because they'll have a more fun life.

但这对社会的延续来说却是更糟糕的。

It's worse for the continuation of the society.

但如果我们优先考虑个人，那么这或许也是一件好事。

But if we're gonna prioritize the individual, then maybe that's maybe that's a good thing.

目前的社会非常个人主义。

It's a very individualistic society at the moment.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我在网上收到的大量善意或恶意的反驳，都说你在试图剥夺人们的自主权。

I mean, that's an awful lot of an awful lot of the well meaning and bad meaning pushback that I get online is saying something along the lines of you're trying to remove agency.

把女性从董事会赶出去，再送回厨房之类的。

It's taking women out of the boardroom and putting them back into the kitchen, etcetera.

这种说法几乎完全围绕着独立性展开。

It's very much the the the language is almost exclusively framed around independence.

是的。

Yeah.

当然了。

Of course it is.

而且，是的，这种表述方式非常有效。

And it's and, yeah, and that's a very, it's a very effective way of framing it.

这可能是另一个稍微不同的议题，但关于个人自由和在这些事情上做决定的概念，其实也带点谬误和愚蠢。

It's probably a little bit of a of a different, of a different conversation, but the notion of individual freedom and decision making around these things is also little bit is also just a little bit of a fallacy and a little bit folly.

这是自由意志主义的幻想，对吧？认为只要让每个人做自己想做的事，每个人都会快乐。

It's the libertarian fantasy, right, that if you just let everybody do what they want, then everybody will do what they want and everybody will be happy.

但事实上，绝大多数人根本不知道该做什么，他们只是跟着别人的做法行事。

When in fact, the vast majority of people only know what to do based on what everybody else does anyway.

所以，如果你真的放弃了那些曾经为人们的行为设定界限的社会制度——我们现在正看到这种情况——人们就会变得极易受他人操纵。

So if you don't actually have, which we're sort of seeing now, when you abandon the kinds of societal institutions that you know, placed guardrails on what people should do and had to do, you just end up with people being really vulnerable to manipulation by others.

因为实际上，大多数人根本不会自己决定他们想做什么。

Because actually the majority of people don't sort of make their own decisions about what they would want to do anyway.

他们随大流，遵循主流规范。

They go with the crowd and they follow the norm.

但回到你之前的问题：女性普遍进入职场，这到底是好事还是坏事？

But to get back to your question about, you know, is it a good thing or is it a bad thing to have women generally in the workplace?

这取决于你所说的'好'或'坏'指的是什么。

And it depends on what you mean by good or bad.

如果你指的是对社会有利还是有害，那么显然，如果其不可避免的结果是毁灭性的，这对社会绝对是不利的。

If you mean good or bad for the society, well then there's definitely I mean, it's definitely bad for the society if the inevitable result of it is that it's terminal.

我认为我们完全可以争论，这在社会层面上绝对是坏事。

I think we can argue that that's definitely bad at the level of the society.

所以我们必须往下看，降到更具体的层面。

So then we have to move down to the level.

当我们往下看时，其实不必，但假设我们现在降到个人层面，问问：这对个人来说是好还是坏？

So when we move down, we don't have to, but let's say now we move down to the level of the individual and say, well, is it good or is it bad for the individual?

那么，我们来看看当今女性的现状。

And so, well, have a look at the state of women at the moment.

严重的心理健康危机。

Massive mental health crisis.

普遍并不快乐。

Not generally not happy.

最终变得无子无伴。

Ending up childless, partnerless.

所以我们现在并没有看到——你之前在讨论中也提到过这一点——这些针对女性的策略所带来的最终结果，我认为明智的人本应预见到它们可能不会非常积极，但我们现在确实看到，最幸福的女性是那些已婚并有孩子的女性，而最不幸福的女性则是那些未婚且没有孩子的女性。

So we're not seeing and you sort of spoke about this earlier in this discussion as well, that, you know, the the end results of these strategies for women, you know, I think sensible people, I think, would have predicted that they may not have been very positive, but we're now seeing, you know, that the happiest women are the women who are married and have children, and the least happy women are the women who are not married and don't have children.

所以，这再次取决于你所说的‘好’指的是什么。

So once again, it depends on what you mean by good.

而且关于这一点，你所看到的最有力的数据是什么？关于已婚有孩女性与单身无孩女性之间幸福感的对比数据？

And What's the most but just on that, what's the most robust data that you've seen around the happiness the comparative happiness levels between coupled women with kids and single women without kids?

我一时想不起来具体数据。

I couldn't answer off the top of my head.

我得去查一下。

I would have to go and look it up.

我了解到，这个结论相当可靠，而且已经存在一段时间了。

My understanding of it is that it is pretty robust and it's been out there for a while.

这并不是最近才出现的一项研究。

It's not just one recent study or anything.

这是多项研究长期积累的结果。

It's kind of multiple studies out for long periods of time.

关于生活满意度、自我报告的幸福感以及自我报告的心理健康问题，这些都已经得到了充分理解，而且并不仅仅依赖于单一的因变量。

It's pretty well understood that in terms of life satisfaction, self reported well-being, self reported mental health problems, like it's not just one DV either.

多个因变量都表明，已婚且有孩子的女性比单身且无子女的女性更幸福。

It's it's multiple DVs are all pointing to married women with children being happier than single women who are not mothers.

有趣的是，我认为这可能只是因为评论这场小风波的人群属于特定世代。

The the interesting thing that I and maybe it was just because of the cohort of people that were commenting on this little storm in a teacup.

我惊讶的是，就像有支持生命和选择权的阵营一样，也应该存在支持母职和反对母职、提倡生育和反对生育的立场。

What I was surprised by was in the same ways you have pro life and pro choice, you should still have pro motherhood and kind of anti motherhood or pronatal and antinatal.

我惊讶于竟然很少有人站出来说：母亲很重要，生孩子是好事，那种认为女性最大的贡献是像父亲一样工作、像兄弟一样恋爱的观点，其实是一种温和的厌女症。

And I was just surprised at how few people stand up and say something to the extent of mothers are important and having kids is a good thing, that there's kind of a soft misogyny to saying that the the highest contribution that a woman can make is behaving or working like her father and having sex like her brother.

这确实是一种温和的厌女症。

Like, it is a kind of soft misogyny.

而且我认为，这种声音并不总是被看作来自内部的批判。

And I don't I don't think that that's necessarily seen as the call coming from inside of the house all the time.

好的。

Okay.

那么，女性参与的一些更未被充分认识的性内竞争方式有哪些？

So what are some of the more under recognized methods of intrasexual competition that women engage in?

有哪些是人们通常不会想到的要素？

What are some of the the elements that people typically don't think about?

所以我认为，也许最不为人所知的——因为它某种程度上被塑造成一种憎恨男性的东西——我会说是，或者说是整个出现的这种'有毒男子气概'的小型产业。

So I think perhaps the least I think probably the one of the least well recognized because it's sort of framed as a a man hating thing, I would say is or is the whole kind of toxic masculinity little cottage industry that's appeared.

所以这种情况经常发生，而且，你知道，并非没有充分的理由。

So that's frequently and and, you know, not without good reason.

它经常被塑造成一种反男性运动。

It's frequently framed as like an anti male movement.

你知道，这是那种憎恨男性的女权主义流派，它想把不仅男人、连男孩也贴上‘有毒’的标签。

It's, you know, it's the man hating stream of feminism that wants to brand not just men as toxic but boys as toxic.

我不知道你的经历和所见如何，但在澳大利亚，我相信在英国，有很多讨论，我认为现在实际上正在发生，他们正在学校为年幼的男孩引入实质上是预防性的教育，以教导他们不要变得‘有毒’。

I don't know what your experiences are and what you've seen, but certainly in Australia, and I believe The UK, there's lots of talk, I think it's sort of actually happening now, them introducing effectively preemptive education into schools for young boys so they can teach them not to be toxic.

这些正是你所想象的。

And these are exactly what you would imagine.

就在上周，这件事还引起了一点轰动。

And there was a made a little bit of a splash just the other week.

有一项研究发布，声称我们的年轻男孩充满了这些有毒的观念，情况非常糟糕。

There was a study that came out saying talking about how terrible it is that our young boys young boys have just got all of these toxic attitudes.

这是一项澳大利亚的研究。

It was an Australian study.

这些年轻男孩满脑子都是有毒的观念。

Young boys with all these toxic attitudes.

当然，这些所谓‘有毒’的观念包括：有些女性会谎报性侵指控。

Of course, the attitudes were things like, some women lie about sexual assault allegations.

这并不是一种有毒的观念。

That's not a toxic attitude.

这只不过是事实而已。

That just happens to be the truth.

所以我们正在看到一种对男性毒性的强烈污名化，而我否认这种污名化对男性造成了可怕的影响。

So we're sort of seeing this real branding of male toxicity, which is and I'm deny that that's having terrible effects on men.

因此，我想提出一个观点：男性实际上是这一整套小规模运动的附带伤害。

So I'm, you know, I'm about to suggest that the men are actually the collateral damage of that of that whole little enterprise.

但即便是附带伤害，也不意味着它不严重。

And just because it's collateral doesn't mean it's not serious.

这并不意味着我在淡化它对他们的影响。

Doesn't mean I'm minimizing the impact it's having on them.

那么请你解释一下，为什么把男性和男性气质污名化为有毒，是女性之间的性内竞争？

So explain explain to me how branding men and masculinity as toxic is female intrasexual competition.

因为它破坏了女性的择偶偏好。

Because it destroys female mate choice preferences.

这正是它所针对的目标。

It's what it's targeting.

所谓‘有毒’的标签所附着的，是男性身上每一个方面——而这些方面恰恰是女性本应寻找的高价值伴侣的特质。当然，我不会说每一个男性特质都被如此标签化，因为显然它确实针对了一些真正恶劣的行为；但大多数被贴上‘有毒’标签的常规男性行为，恰恰是女性本应欣赏的典型男性特质。

What what the the the toxic brand is being attached to is every aspect of men that women should actually, that women, I won't say every single aspect of men because it obviously gets targeted at actually bad behavior, but most of the regular, all of the regular masculine behaviors that this toxic label gets thrown at are exactly the type of masculine behaviors that women should actually be looking for in a high value partner.