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你如何描述你的工作？
How do you describe what you do?
有人从未见过你。
Someone hasn't met you before.
他们对你了解不多。
They don't know much about you.
你正在参加一个鸡尾酒会。
You're at a cocktail party.
你如何描述你的工作？
How do you describe what you do?
我的工作主要是，嗯，我是一名心理治疗师。
I mean, my work focuses on I mean, I'm a psychotherapist.
这差不多就是我的专业。
That's kinda like my trade.
我持有心理治疗师的执照。
I'm licensed as a psychotherapist.
我拥有心理学博士学位，因此我的背景是心理学和心理健康。
I have a doctorate in psychology, so my background is in psychology and mental health.
我想说，我具体从事的是对人格障碍成因的深入研究。
I would say what I do specifically is I do extensive research on the etiology or cause of personality disorders.
这种诊断正是我专长于评估和理解的领域。
That's the type of diagnosis that I specialize in assessing, understanding.
但我从事这项工作的其中一个原因，并不一定是治疗人格障碍。
But one of the reasons I do it is actually not necessarily to treat personality disorders.
我这么做是为了帮助人们理解，在存在人格障碍的关系中，往往伴随着毒性、冲突、争执和虐待。
I do it so that I help people understand in relationships where there's personality disorder, there's often toxicity and conflict and strife and abuse.
对吧？
Right?
因此，我帮助人们在经历有毒关系后，重建我所说的现实信心。
And so what I do is I help people restore their, what I would call, their reality confidence following a toxic relationship.
因为在这些关系中，当个体成为有意操纵、欺骗、控制的人的受害者时，受害者会丧失对什么是真实、什么是被操纵的判断力。
Because in these relationships, what happens is the individual who is the victim of somebody who is intentionally manipulative, deceptive, controlling, what happens is the the victim loses their sense of what's actually true and real and what's actually being manipulated.
明白吗？
Okay?
因此，我会帮助那些经历过这种高冲突或有害关系的人重新找回对现实的信心。
And so I I help people following these types of high conflict or problematic abusive relationships kind of get their reality confidence back.
我实现这一点的一种方式是解决我所说的创伤性认知失调——当一个人被迫同时接受两种相互矛盾的现实时，大脑就会出现这种情况，因为有人试图让你相信两件不可能同时为真的事情都是真的。
And one of the ways I do that is by resolving what I call traumatic cognitive dissonance, which is what happens to the brain when you're forced to hold two contradictory realities at the same time because someone is trying to convince you that two things could be true at the same time when they can't be.
因此，当我为人们提供专业咨询时，我帮助他们重新理解什么是真实的、他们真正经历了什么，以及他们曾被说服相信了什么——而那些被灌输的信念，只是因为对他人有利。
And so when I'm consulting with people professionally, I'm helping them regain their understanding of what's actually real, what happened to them, and what was what they were convinced happened to them because it was convenient for somebody else if they believed that.
所以，这几乎就像是那些与这些人长期亲密相处的人，嗯。
So it's almost like people that have spent a good bit of time intimately close to these other people Mhmm.
他们的现实感被扭曲，以至于在重返正常现实时，旧的扭曲认知仍会不断浮现。
Their reality gets warped around them to the point where it's difficult for them to reenter normal reality without the old version creeping back in.
没错。
Correct.
是的。
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
其中一个原因是，那个操纵者在使大量欺骗和证据变得隐形方面做得极其出色。
And one of the reasons for that is because the individual who is the manipulative person has done such an exceptional job of making a lot of the the deception and the evidence invisible.
所以，并不是有人明显地试图操纵你，而你对此心知肚明。
So it's not like there's somebody overtly trying to manipulate you, and you're aware of it.
对吧？
Right?
比如，并不是有人直接说：嘿。
Like, it's not like there's somebody saying, hey.
我想让你买我的这个产品。
I want you to buy this product from me.
这是它如何改善你生活的理由，然后他们施加压力。
Here's why I think it'll improve your life, and then they pressure you.
实际上更像这样：不。
It's actually more like, no.
我其实没在做什么。
I'm not actually up to anything.
我的意思是，在这种安排下，你可以自由来去，但与此同时，你暗中试图为了自私或剥削性的理由获得对这个人的优势。
I mean, you're free to come and go as you please in this arrangement, all while underneath the surface covertly trying to gain an advantage over this person for selfish reasons, exploitative reasons.
因此，即使这段关系已经结束，他们可能在多年甚至几十年后，仍然以一种不准确的方式看待这段关系，因为他们的现实已经被扭曲了。
And so even if the relationship has ended, they still might perceive the relationship even years or decades later in a way that's not accurate because they were, their reality was distorted.
这种人格类型是什么？什么样的心理特征？
What are the personality type what what what are the sorts of people, the kinds of psychological profiles?
我们这里说的是什么？
What are we talking about here?
这种行为会如何表现出来？
How does that how does that show up in behavior?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，我会说这是人格障碍，而我只是个传话的。
So, I mean, I I would say the personality disorders and I'm just the messenger here.
明白吗？
Okay?
但我们最常与人际冲突、虐待和伤害联系在一起的人格障碍，被称为B类人格障碍。
But the personality disorders that we most often associate with interpersonal conflict, abuse, harm, are what we call the cluster b personality disorders.
我们之所以将它们归为一类，是因为它们有许多重叠的特征。
And so the reason why we we cluster them together is because they have a lot of overlapping features.
所以，说这种分类只是方便并不准确，但说一个人完全符合某个具体障碍类别、仅此而已，也并不完全正确。
So it's not it's not really accurate to say that it's convenient, but it's not fully accurate to say that somebody just fits into one, you know, concrete category of disorder, and we can just label them as such, and then there's nothing else going on.
通常情况下，一个人身上会同时表现出多种人格障碍的若干特质或特征，彼此重叠。
Usually, what's happening is there's quite a few traits or features of multiple personality disorders that are overlapping in one individual.
这就使得真正弄清楚这个人到底是什么样的变得更加困难。
And so it makes it even harder to really pinpoint what really is this person all about.
但我想说，B类障碍中常见的病态人格特质，正是最可能导致人际关系中冲突和麻烦的那些。
But it but it I would say that the pathological traits, the personality traits that we find common in the cluster b classification of disorders are the ones that you're gonna find causing the most interpersonal trouble and conflict in relationships.
它们叫什么名字？
What would they what are they named?
我们其中一个主要的、可以作为总称的概念就是对抗性。
So we have one of the main ones that's sort of like an umbrella term is what we refer to as antagonism.
对抗性是一种人格特质，人们常常故意与他人对立，或者故意让两个人彼此对立，纯粹为了制造戏剧性、引发冲突，而不是解决问题。
Antagonism is a personality trait where people are in in oftentimes intentionally putting themselves at odds with another person, or they're putting two other people at odds with one another literally to create drama, to create conflict, to escalate problems rather than solve them.
对抗性的一个例子是我们所说的‘三角关系’。
So an example of antagonism is something that we refer to as, like, triangulation.
一个人会故意告诉另一个人关于第三个人的某些事情，以制造裂痕，然后否认自己做过这件事。
So one person is intentionally gonna tell another person something about someone else to create a rift, and then they're gonna deny that they did that.
于是，原本根本没交流过的两个人，可能会因为这个第三方而对彼此产生想法和看法。
And so now the two people that didn't even speak could be having thoughts and perceptions about each other based on this other person.
这可能完全是虚构的。
That could be completely a fabrication.
这可能只是一个谎言。
It could just be a lie.
现在这两个人彼此对立，但他们甚至可能根本没有直接沟通过。
And now those two people are at odds with one another, and they haven't even communicated necessarily.
只是这个其他人决定要制造裂痕，因为让这两个人不和可能对他们有利。
It's just this other person is is deciding I'm gonna create a rift in here because it might benefit them for those two people to not get along.
所以他们会策略性地在这一关系中制造问题，然后否认这一切发生过。
And so they're gonna strategically create a problem in that dynamic and then deny it ever have it.
我甚至不知道对抗性是一种人格特质或潜在的人格类型。
I didn't even know antagonism was a a personality trait or a potential personality type.
我只是……我不知道。
I I just I don't know.
我的意思是，我确实想过一些具有对抗性的人。
I mean, I I I've thought about somebody that is antagonistic.
你能感觉到那种人，但我没意识到它会是一种更可定义的东西，一个有明确分类的类别。
You can you you know that, but I didn't realize that it would be something more definable, something something that had its own little bucket.
是的。
Yeah.
而这是一个很大的类别，因为对抗性背后其实是自大之类的东西，我们在自恋中就能看到。
And that's actually a big bucket because what under what's underneath antagonism is things like grandiosity, which we see in narcissism.
我相信你对这个术语很熟悉。
I'm sure you're familiar with that term.
这是一个非常流行的说法。
It's a big popular term.
大多数被指责为自恋的人，实际上被指责的是他们的对抗性。
Most people who get accused of being narcissistic, what's actually what they're actually being accused of is antagonism.
他们在关系中被指责的自恋问题，其实是某人的自大，也就是他们的特权感、傲慢以及无法将他人视为平等的人。
They're being accused of the the problematic aspect of narcissism in a relationship is somebody's grandiosity, so their entitlement, their arrogance, their inability to see other people as an equal.
作为一个自恋者，如果你想维持这种地位，唯一的办法就是挑衅他人，因为你需要让人与你对立。
Well, the only way you can be in a relationship as a narcissist and to maintain that position is if you antagonize people because you need to put people at odds with you.
他们必须低于你。
They need to be beneath you.
他们必须意识到这段关系中存在等级，而你无论在什么方面都更聪明、更优秀。
They need to be aware that there's a hierarchy in the relationship that you are, whatever the case may be, smarter, better.
你知道，他们必须处于下位。
You know, they need to be above.
在一段关系中，如果一方真正患有自恋症，就不存在真正的平等。
There's no such thing as equality in a relationship where one person is truly narcissistic.
是的。
So, yeah.
因此，敌意实际上是许多我们常听到的其他特质所归属的大范畴。
So antagonism is actually the big bowl that a lot of the other traits that we often hear about.
它们实际上都属于敌意的范畴。
They actually are falling under the category of antagonism.
这个集群里还有哪些内容？
What else is in the cluster?
我们有敌意，有些人倾向于对他人怀有蔑视或怨恨，他们并不愿意合作来改善关系。
We have hostility, so people that have kind of tend to hold like a contempt or a spite towards others to where they're not actually collaborating to make relationships better.
他们对对方心怀怨恨。
They they're resentful of the person.
他们可能会嫉妒对方。
They're they might envy the person.
他们可能会嫉妒这个人，因此对他们怀有敌意。
They might be jealous of the person, so they're hostile towards them.
而且，这并不总是被承认的。
And it's again, this isn't always being admitted to.
他们可能一边面带微笑、讨好对方、刻意逢迎、表现得友善，一边却因为敌意而暗中破坏对方的事情。
They could be smiling and winning favor and ingratiating and being kind to the person all while sabotaging something covertly through their because as a result of their hostility.
所以他们可能是欺骗性的。
So they might be deceptive.
欺骗是敌意的另一个特征。
That's another feature of antagonism is deceit.
显然还包括操纵和不履行义务。
Obviously manipulation, failure to fulfill obligations.
所有这些行为，如果是一贯且持续的，我们就真的在面对一个具有敌意的人。
All of these things that we see in in if they're consistent chronic behaviors, we're really dealing with an an antagonistic person.
我想，我们每个人在某些时候都做过其中一些事吧
Well, I suppose all of us have done some of this some of the So
当我们谈论人格障碍时，我们真正谈论的是这种特质，所以我们只用敌意这个词，因为我们正在讨论敌意。
when we talk about personality disorders, what we're really talking about is is this trait well, so we'll just use antagonism because we're talking about antagonism.
一个人是否只在某一两个特定情境下表现出敌意？
Is somebody antagonistic in, like, one or two specific contexts?
所以，当他们成年后只和母亲交谈时，他们会变得敌意吗？
So are they do they tend to become antagonistic when they're only talking to their mother and they're an adult?
对吧？
Right?
但无论过去多久，只要他们回到长大的家，就会重新变得敌意。
But no matter how much time goes by, if they go home to the house that they grew up in, they start being antagonistic.
我们是在讨论这种情况吗？
Are we talking about that?
因为这种现象在人类中其实挺常见的。
Because that's kind of a normal thing that we could see in humans.
还是说，这个人每天每时每刻都在策划挑拨他人关系，因为这样能让他们从中获益，让别人永远无法和睦相处？
Or is this person all day every day plotting to put people at odds with one another because it benefits them in some way for people to never get along?
他们似乎是帮助每个人重新收拾残局的共同因素。
They seem to be the common denominator of helping everybody pick up the pieces back together.
因此，这个人整天以对抗的方式行事，可能背后有一些动机。
So there could be some motivating factor why the person operates in an antagonistic fashion all day, every day.
我们会说，这更与异常或适应不良的人格有关。
We would say that that's more related to abnormal or maladaptive personality.
但如果你因为与某人有历史恩怨而偶尔表现出对抗，这只是人之常情。
But if you're antagonistic once in a while with a particular person because you have a history, that's just being human.
对吧？
Right?
我们关注的是这种模式在多大程度上干扰了个体自身以及他人的生活。
What we're looking for is how much is this pattern interfering with the life of the individual and the lives of other people.
因此，这里有一个区别。
So there's a distinction there.
是的。
Yeah.
这背后的根源是什么？
What's the root of this?
B类人格障碍的根源是什么？
What are the root of much of the cluster b dissonage?
这个
This
这是个很好的问题。
is an excellent question.
我要给出的答案与其他大多数谈论过这个话题的人不同，比如你可能见过的那些讨论人格障碍或自恋的人，他们对成因的看法会和我不一样。
So one of the things that is gonna put my answer or set my answer apart is most of the people you've probably seen speak about this topic, personality disorders or narcissism, they're going to give you a different answer than I would give you based on what causes it.
明白吗？
Okay?
大多数人认为，导致这种情况的原因是童年逆境、某种形式的虐待，或者一个人在这种环境中学会了这样行事。
Most people have this idea or have adopted the idea that what causes it is actually childhood adversity or some sort of abuse or situation where the person learns to be this way.
受伤的人会伤害别人。
And Hurt people hurt people.
正是如此。
Precisely.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，那正是你最常听到的答案。
That that I mean, that's the that's the most common answer you'll get.
我根本不同意这个观点，因为过去二十年甚至更近的研究表明，我们用来描述自恋核心特征的许多特质，实际上与一个人天生的构造关系同等重要，甚至更为重要，而不是他们所经历的事情。
I would I would fundamentally disagree with that because there's a lot of new research that has come out within the last twenty years even that suggests that a lot of the traits that we use to describe the central features of something like a narcissism are actually just as much, if not more related, to the way somebody is just intrinsically built rather than the things that happen to them.
所以我们要讨论的是，其实并不存在天性与教养的争论，因为两者始终并存。
So we're gonna go into, like, the the there's no such thing as a nature nurture debate because it's always nature and nurture.
因此，谈论其中一方而忽略另一方是没有意义的。
So there's no such thing as talking about one without the other.
但我在临床研究、临床实践以及我整个领域中注意到的是，专业人士普遍缺乏对DNA和生物学如何在人的一生中影响自恋特质和表现的认识，无论他们童年或早年经历了什么。
But what I've what I've noticed in clinical research, in clinical practice, and in just in my field in general is there is a lack of awareness among professionals of how much DNA and biology contribute to narcissistic traits and features across the lifespan in an individual, regardless of what has happened to them in early life and childhood.
我的意思是，有证据表明，有些人可能具有高度自恋或比轻度或中度更严重的个性障碍，而他们甚至可能在没有任何逆境、创伤或人生伤害的情况下发展出这种障碍。
So what I mean by that is there is evidence to to demonstrate that people can be highly narcissistic or have a personality disorder that's more severe than, we'll say, mild or moderate, and they could actually develop that disorder without any adversity or trauma or incidents of being hurt in their personal life.
因此，我们不能再将这种行为 solely 归因于某人在早期成长阶段所经历的事情。
So we can no longer attribute this type of behavior solely to what happened to somebody in their early formative years.
我昨天邀请了凯瑟琳·佩奇·哈丁做客节目。
I had Catherine Page Hardin on the show yesterday.
你熟悉她吗？
You familiar with her?
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
她写了《基因彩票》，她的新书叫《原罪》，主要探讨人们的基因如何影响其行为，尤其是适应不良的反社会行为，比如抢劫、偷窃、撒谎和虐待。
Wrote the genetic lottery, and her new book is original sin, and it's all about how people's behavior is influenced by their genes, especially maladaptive, antisocial behavior, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse.
所以，没错，你并不孤单，有同样观点的人很多。
And, so, yeah, you're you're in you're in good company.
这周，显然大家都在讨论不良人格特质以及基因的作用。
This week, apparently, it's just all about bad personality traits and how much about genes.
所以这里有一个有趣的问题：如果你说创伤并不必然导致人们成为施虐者，那么你可能会遇到一个经历了极其悲惨童年却并未成长为自恋者或反社会者的孩子；同时，你也可能遇到一个在没有虐待的环境中长大的孩子，却在童年时期就表现出自恋倾向。
So an interesting question there is, if you're saying trauma doesn't necessarily cause people to become abusers, that you can have a child who goes through a horrendous childhood and doesn't grow up to become a narcissist or an antagonist or whatever, And you can also have a childhood which doesn't have abuse and the child does grow up to become an adult or even in childhood is dream where you get narcissistic children as well.
你见过多少次这样的情况：某人成为自恋者或反社会者，但其家族史中却没有类似表现，而你又能将这种行为的遗传成分分离出来？
How often do you see somebody that becomes, let's just say, a narcissist or antagonist that doesn't have it in their family history where you have been able to separate out some of the heritability component of this?
也就是说，环境能将多少人塑造为B类人格障碍？
Like, how many people can environment themselves into a cluster b disorder?
是的。
Yeah.
这是个非常好的问题。
That's such a great question.
在心理健康领域，历史上对这个问题的答案通常是：尽可能多的人，因为他们一直秉持着这样的理论视角——这些障碍是后天形成的，是被设计出来的。
I would say historically in the mental health field, the the answer to that question would be as many people as possible because they're operating from this theoretical lens, right, that these are created, these are designed disorders.
它们并非与生俱来。
They're not built into anybody.
它们完全是环境造成的。
They're strictly environmental.
因此，从我的角度来看，如果这些障碍完全是环境造成的，这就带来了一个问题。
So that presents a problem if they're strictly environmental to my perspective.
因为这意味着在适当的环境下，你就能造就一个自恋者，对吧？
Because what it's saying is that under the right circumstances, you can make a narcissist, right?
所以回答你的问题，如果我答得不对，请纠正我。
So to answer your question, maybe correct me if I'm not answering your question.
我会说，我不会断言某件事是不可能的。
I would say, I'm not going to say something's not possible.
那么，我认为仅凭经历，一个人就可能发展出我们通常所说的自恋型人格障碍吗？
So do I think it's possible that somebody, based on experience alone, could develop what we would typically refer to as a narcissistic personality disorder?
他们是否有可能在生命中的某个阶段符合这一诊断标准？
Could they meet that criteria at some point in their life?
是的，当然可能。
Yeah, sure.
但我必须提醒的是，我们现在看到的是，要让自恋真正演变为一种普遍的障碍，个体必须先具备足够的自恋基础材料，这意味着必须存在某些生物和遗传因素作为特质的基础。
I would caution to say, though, that what we're really seeing now, though, is they need enough of the startup material of narcissism in order for it to really manifest into like a pervasive disorder, meaning there has to be some biological and genetic underpinnings that set up the trait profile
对于那种类型，需要原始材料。
for that They type need the raw materials.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是这样。
I I'd say so.
我不认为你能在任何人身上从零开始完全创造出来。
I don't think you could just create it from the ground up in anybody.
所以你经常在父母或祖父母身上看到这种情况吗？
So do you often see it in mom or dad or grandparents?
你有没有研究过这个？
Have you ever looked at this?
有没有人做过相关研究？
Has anyone done a study?
是的。
Yeah.
双胞胎研究实际上能为我们提供最多的信息，帮助我们判断某种特质是遗传的还是环境影响的。
So they're actually what gives us the most information on how genetic something is versus how environmental is twin studies.
双胞胎，也就是说，这是一种天然的实验。
Twins, I mean, it's a natural experiment.
你找两个被分开抚养的同卵双胞胎，他们甚至不知道对方的存在，对彼此的环境也一无所知。
You take two identical twins that have been raised apart, so they don't even know the other exists and they know nothing about their environment.
你可以在他们成年后，或在人生的不同阶段对它们进行研究。
You you study them later in life or or at intervals of life.
如果他们来自完全不同的成长环境、截然不同的社会经济地位、不同的国家，他们有多相似？
How similar are they if they come from completely different upbringings, completely different socioeconomic status, completely different countries?
如果他们从未见过对方，却共享100%的DNA，他们的性格会有多相似？
How similar are they in personality if they didn't know the other exists, but they share a 100% of their DNA?
对吧？
Right?
所以，这些就是我们可以对同卵双胞胎进行的有趣天然实验，用以观察环境影响有多大，以及即使他们分开生活，但拥有相似DNA时，他们的特质有多一致。
So those are the those are the kind of cool natural experiments we can do on identical twins to see how much of environmental influence is there versus how concordant are their traits even if they lived apart but just share similar DNA.
我们在一些具有里程碑意义的元分析和研究中发现，就心理特质而言，长达五十多年的大规模双生子研究，涵盖了数百万对双生子以及大约两万种可能的心理特质，结果表明，所有心理特质，包括人格特质，平均遗传率约为50%。
What we found in, like, some pretty landmark meta analyses and landmark studies is across the board when it comes to psychological traits, fifty plus years of twin research covering millions and millions of different of of twins and covering, I don't know how many traits there are, but maybe 20,000 psychological traits that are possible, we're finding that all psychological traits, including personality traits, show measurable average heritability of, like, about 50%.
这仅仅是基于遗传物质本身得出的结论。
So that's just with startup material alone.
所有心理特质的平均遗传率都约为50%。
All psychological traits show about 50% average heritability.
而在人格障碍方面，我们发现，当讨论病态人格特质时，这些比例实际上会更高。
And what we've seen with personality disorders is that those percentages actually increase when we're talking about pathological personality traits.
因此，它超过了百分之五十。
So it exceeds fifty percent.
这相当显著。
That's that's pretty significant.
是的。
Yeah.
但平均来看，几乎所有特质都大约是五成。
Well, it's on average, pretty much everything is fifty percent.
但当你谈论如此极端的异常情况时，这种行为在群体层面上看起来非常反社会且适应不良，尽管在个体层面上可能略有适应性，我本以为我们的基因能够更有效地回归均值，试图消除这种特质。
But when you're talking about such an extreme outlier, what sounds like very antisocial kind of maladaptive, at least at the group level, although it may be slightly adaptive at the individual level, I would have you would have hoped that, our genes might have been able to regress back to the mean a little bit more effectively to try and push this thing out.
那你有没有从进化的角度思考过这个问题？
So have you got have you thought about this through an evolutionary lens?
你有没有考虑过B类人格特质可能具有适应性？
Have you thought about how cluster b personality traits might be adaptive?
它们为我们的祖先带来了哪些好处，以及现在拥有这些特质的人又能获得什么好处？
What sort of benefits they would afford our ancestors, and what sort of benefits the people who have them receive now.
因为如果这些特质在基因池中保留了几十万年，我们就有理由假设它们的存在是有原因的。
Because if they have stayed in the gene pool for a couple hundred thousand years, we have to assume that they're there for a reason.
那么，这些人在生活中能获得哪些好处呢？
So what what sort of benefits do these people see?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，这些机制为什么会进化出来，又为什么至今仍然存在？
So, like, why like, essentially, why did these mechanisms evolve, and why are they still around?
就像宾果游戏。
Like Bingo.
好的。
Okay.
所以，我们刚才讨论的关于遗传性的问题，本质上是在问：为什么个体之间会存在差异？
So the first question that we just talked about with heritability, were asking essentially, why do individuals differ?
为什么有些人比其他人更具自恋倾向？
Why would some person have more narcissism than the other?
对吧？
Right?
现在你问的是一个或许不比之前更好、但同样重要的问题。
Now you're asking an even well, maybe not an even better question, but just as important as a question.
为什么会有这些机制呢？
Why the mechanisms in the first place?
比如，它们是否曾发挥过某种有用的作用，甚至无用的作用？
Like, did they serve some some, you know, useful purpose or even non useful?
进化心理学家，我不敢代表所有人，但有些人会说，这仅仅是随机变异的结果。
Evolutionary psychologists, I don't wanna speak for all of them, but some of them would say, this is just due to random variation.
就像这些特质存在于人类DNA中，即使我们试图消除它们，它们也会在未来的世代中重新出现，就像如果我们试图消灭所有合作的人，合作行为也会重新出现一样。
Like, these traits exist in the human DNA, and they're gonna reemerge in future generations even if we try to wipe them out, just like cooperation would reemerge if we try to wipe out all the cooperative people.
所以其中一部分是随机变异。
So part of it is random variation.
我认为这只是人类DNA的本性。
I think it's just, you know, the nature of human DNA.
我们拥有这些存在的特质。
We have these traits that exist.
我认为这些特质确实服务于某些目的，在某些情境下能带来即时奖励、即时满足，甚至解决某些需要冲动才能应对的特定问题。
I think that these traits do serve certain purposes and serve certain contexts that are useful for immediate reward or immediate gratification or even solving a very particular problem that requires could potentially require even impulse.
对吧？
Right?
我们需要一种即兴的、冲动的、快速的决策。
We need, like, a spontaneous impulsive quick decision here.
所以我们也要看看这些特质的实用性。
So we wanna look at the utility in these traits too.
它们并不全是坏的，我甚至不会说这关乎善恶问题。
They're not all bad, and I wouldn't even go so far as to say this is an issue about related to good or evil.
我认为即使这些特质只以较小的剂量存在，也可能非常有用，因此它们的存在就是为了这个目的。
I think these traits even in smaller doses could be extremely useful, and so they exist for that purpose.
当它们达到定量维度的极端时，也就是说，一个人在生活中和人际关系中变得极具敌意，以至于成为问题时，那时我们才会说，不管它曾经有什么作用，现在这已经不是它该有的作用了。
When they get to the point where they're on the extreme end of the quantitative dimension, meaning somebody is existing in life and in relationships hostile to the point where it's problematic, you know, that's when we would say, well, whatever purpose it served, it this isn't the this isn't the purpose.
但即使对积极的特质，比如随和性，我们也可以这么说。
But we could even say that for positive traits, like agreeableness, for example.
如果你太过随和，如果你病态地随和，那么在日常生活中，稍微有点不那么顺从可能反而更有益。
If you could be too agreeable, then if you're if you're pathologically agreeable, then, you know, it might it might be useful to be a bit more disagreeable in day to day life.
对吧？
Right?
所以回答你的问题，它们之所以存在，是因为它们本来就存在。
So to answer your question, they exist because they exist.
它们的演化源于随机性，以及在极端水平下的一些有用但有害的目的。
They evolve for for, you know, randomness and also some useful purposes in extreme levels that are just harmful.
另外，你可能听过我提到过LMNT，因为说实话，我离不开它，每天早上我都是靠它开始一天的。
In other news, you've probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that's because I am, frankly, dependent on it, and it's how I've started my day every single morning.
这是市场上最好喝的补水饮料。
This is the best tasting hydration drink on the market.
你可能会想，为什么我需要更多补水呢？
You might think, why do I need to be more hydrated?
因为适当的补水不仅仅是喝足够的水。
Because proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water.
还需要足够的电解质，才能让身体有效利用这些水分。
Having sufficient electrolytes to allow your body to use those fluids.
每一份即取即用的独立包装都含有经过科学验证的钠、钾和镁电解质配比。
Each grab and go stick pack is a science backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium.
它不含糖、色素、人工成分或其他任何添加剂。
It's got no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, or any other junk.
这在减少肌肉痉挛和疲劳、优化大脑健康、调节食欲和抑制渴望方面起着关键作用。
This plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, optimizing brain health, regulating your appetite, and curbing cravings.
这种橙子口味的冷水饮料，是一种甜美、咸香、充满橙子风味的甘露，你服用时和不服用时的差别会真切地感受到，这就是我不断提起它的原因。
This orange flavor in a cold glass of water is a sweet, salty, orangey nectar, and you will genuinely feel the difference when you take it versus when you don't, which is why I keep going on about it.
首先，他们提供无条件退款政策，且没有时间限制。
First of all, there's a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration.
买它。
Buy it.
用完它。
Use it all.
如果你有任何理由不喜欢，他们会全额退款，你甚至不需要退回包装盒。
And if you don't like it for any reason, they give you your money back, you don't even have to return the box.
他们对你一定会喜欢它充满信心。
That's how confident they are that you'll love it.
此外，他们在美国提供免费配送。
Plus, they offer free shipping in The US.
现在，通过访问下方描述中的链接，前往 drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom，首次购买即可免费获得 Element 最受欢迎口味的试用装。
Right now, can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.
就是 drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom。
That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.
那这些东西的神经生物学机制是怎样的呢？
What about the neurobiology of this stuff?
哪些大脑区域参与了共情和自我控制？
What what parts of the brain are involved in empathy and self control?
我们有没有研究过那些……是的，人的大脑？
And and have we looked at have we looked at the brains of the Yeah.
是多巴胺过载吗？
What's go is it dopamine overload?
是杏仁核过度活跃吗？
Is it that the the amygdala is firing too much?
到底发生了什么？
What's going on?
我认为把这一点带入这场对话中非常重要，因为心理学常常止步于社会层面和养育方面的贡献。
This is something that I think is extremely important to bring to this conversation because I think oftentimes psychology stops at social and, you know, caregiving contributions.
对吧？
Right?
比如原始环境之类的东西。
Like, the the original environment and things like that.
但还有许多其他系统参与了人格或特质的形成，你提到了其中一些。
But there are so many other systems involved in creating a personality or creating a trait, and you mentioned some of them.
我们正在讨论荷尔蒙系统、内分泌系统、神经系统，以及所有相互沟通的大脑网络。
So we're talking about hormonal systems, the endocrine system, you know, the nervous system, and then all of the brain networks that are communicating.
我不太喜欢说存在所谓的‘自恋脑’，好像某些区域呈现特定形态就是自恋脑。
I don't I don't really like to say that this is like there's such a thing as like a narcissistic brain where there's certain regions that look a certain way, so that's a narcissistic brain.
我觉得这种说法有点太天真了。
That's a little too naive, I would say.
但大脑中是否存在某些区域能反映出缺乏同理心这类特征？
But are there regions or areas in the brain that are indicative of things like a lack of empathy?
当然。
Sure.
绝对是的。
Like, absolutely.
我们在某些大脑中观察到这一点。
We see that in certain brains.
我们在脑成像中看到这一点。
We see that in brain imaging.
我们还观察到，在接受治疗前后，人格障碍个体的大脑在结构和功能上都存在差异。
We also see structural and functional differences in brains pre and post therapy in individuals with personality disorders.
他们已经对儿童大脑进行了研究。
They've done studies on child brains.
比如，他们在治疗前扫描儿童大脑，然后在进行认知重构、心理化治疗等相关任务后再次扫描，发现大脑的功能和结构确实会因某些干预而发生变化。
Like, you know, they scan them prior to treatment and then scan them following treatment for tasks related to cognitive restructuring, mentalization based treatment, and seeing that the function and structure of the brain does in fact change with certain interventions.
所以这并不是完全固定的，我们是可以进行干预的？
So this is not a complete lock in, we can intervene?
在某些情况下，是的。
In some cases, yeah.
嗯，大多数情况下，我想说在很多情况下，这些都不是决定性的，而是概率性的，影响更大，而不是一成不变的。
Well, most, I would say in a lot of cases, none of this is deterministic, it's probabilistic, it's more influential than it is just set in stone.
但确实存在一些情况，我想完全坦诚地说，有些个体几乎没有改变其“操作系统”的希望。
But there are cases, I just want to be totally transparent, there are cases of individuals where there's not much hope for changing the operating system.
从大脑化学的角度来看，这看起来是怎样的？
And what does that look like from a brain chemistry perspective?
哪些大脑化学差异会让人更容易倾向于支配、攻击或如此？
What differences in brain chemistry could make someone more prone to dominance or aggression or Yeah.
什么意思？
Whatever?
好问题。
Great question.
因此，我们观察到，在那些在恐惧学习或后果感知方面激活程度较低的个体中，会出现主动或有意形式的攻击行为。
So what we see, we see proactive or intentional forms of aggression in individuals who have, like, less activation when it comes to fear learning or consequences.
我的意思是，有些人的大脑运作方式使得他们无法通过恐惧来从错误中学习。
So what I mean by that is some brains operate in a way where they don't learn from mistakes through fear.
当他们做出极其恶劣的行为时，恐惧感并不会产生作用。
The fear doesn't register when they do something pretty horrific.
因此，当恐惧感没有触发时，他们就没有动力去停止这种行为。
So there's no motivation to stop doing the the behavior when the fear doesn't kick in.
身体或相关系统也不会产生通常应有的警觉反应。
There's also no arousal in the body or in systems that would normally say, okay.
我们需要在这里保持高度警觉。
We need to be bit hypervigilant here.
我们刚刚做了一些事。
We just did something.
我们不喜欢那种感觉。
We don't like the way it feels.
在某些人身上，这些反应根本不会发生。
In some individuals, those things don't happen.
所以他们不会从错误中学习。
So they don't learn from the mistakes.
因此，他们内心没有任何机制提醒我们该停止这种行为。
So, therefore, there's nothing in them registering to say we should stop doing this.
实际上可能发生的是，这样做让他们感觉更好。
What actually might be happening is it's making them feel better to do it.
对吧？
Right?
这可能是一种反社会行为。
And it could be an antisocial behavior.
有些人天生就是这样，他们被驱使去持续参与大多数人都认为是负面的行为，但他们的身体或内在系统却告诉他们要坚持下去，因为这会带来奖励，或者对他们来说，这根本没什么负面的。
So some people are wired in such a way where they're motivated to continue participating in what most people would consider a negative behavior, but their body or their operating system is telling them to keep doing it because it it produces a reward, or it's just there's nothing negative about it for them.
昨天佩奇说的基本上完全一样。
Page yesterday said basically the exact same thing.
而那些不通过惩罚学习的人，有趣的是，当你还是孩子时，如果你行为不当，父母和老师往往会越来越严厉地惩罚你。
And the funny thing about somebody who doesn't learn through punishment is that much of the time when you're a kid, if you are acting out, what happens is parents begin to and and teachers begin to ratchet a punishment more and more and more.
你没有意识到，这根本就是一条错误的路径。
What you don't realize is that that is simply the wrong pathway.
这就像是一个人有维生素B甲基化通路缺陷，你却只是不断给他补充维生素B，希望它能被吸收，但实际上根本吸收不了。
It would be like somebody having a vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency, and you just pushing more vitamin B into them, hoping that well, it's this simply does not get absorbed.
她的观点是，他们通过表扬的正向强化来学习，而不是通过惩罚的强化。这意味着在你举的例子中，人们几乎对别人的反感和批评视而不见，只会不断尝试，直到找到某种有效的方法——哦，这个管用。
And her angle was they will learn through reinforcement of praise, but not through reinforcement of punishment, which means that in your example here, it's almost like people are kind of blind to the slings and arrows of distaste from people, and they will just continue to work through until they find something that, oh, well, that worked.
那个方法似乎让我更接近了今天的目标。
That was that that that seemed to get me closer to whatever my goal was for today.
我会继续这么做。
I'll keep doing that.
不行。
No.
你不能这么做。
You can't do that.
你不该这么做。
You shouldn't do that.
你该休息一下了。
You've got time out.
我要拿走你的iPad。
I'm taking your iPad.
你要去坐惩罚椅。
You're gonna sit on the naughty step.
没有任何效果。
Made no difference.
再试一次。
Try it again.
也许情况会不一样。
Maybe it went in a different way.
再加强一点。
Ratchet it up a little bit more.
惩罚又回来了。
The punishment comes back in.
还是没区别。
Again, no difference.
我不是从这件事中学到了什么，也没从那件事中学到什么。
Doesn't I'm not learning from this, not learning from that.
我只是个追求效率的热追踪导弹，不考虑那些表面的宏大东西。
I'm just, heat seeking missile for effectiveness without the sort of overlying Great.
社会规范和不适感。
Social mores, and the discomfort.
你知道吗，对于那些有法语式‘楼梯智慧’的人来说，那种感觉就是：哦，该死。
You know, for the people who've got staircase wit in French, that sense of, oh, fuck.
我真希望我当时说了那句话，而不是像现在这样，根本不会那样反思自己的行为——这恰恰说得对。
I really wish that I'd said that thing as opposed to, I just don't reflect on my behavior in that kind That's of a exactly right.
我们在更严重到极端的人格障碍患者的运作模式中看到的是，他们既缺乏能力，也缺乏与他人合作的兴趣。
So what we see in the operating systems of the more severe to extreme personality disorders is we see a lack of capacity, but also interest in collaboration.
想象一下，如果你的出发点就是：我不感兴趣和别人合作。
So imagine imagine if your starting point is I'm I'm not interested in collaborating with people.
对吧？
Right?
他们就是这样，所以这里确实有问题。
That's how they that so so there's that there's a problem right there.
缺乏合作的能力或意愿。
There's a lack of collaborative capacity or interest.
这些个体也缺乏解决问题的能力或意愿。
There's a lack of problem solving capacity or interest in these individuals.
缺乏自我反思的能力和意愿，也缺乏自我纠正的能力和意愿。
There's a lack of self reflective capacity and interest, and there's a lack of self corrective capacity and interest.
因此，我们必须停止犯一个错误，即认为个体之间及其动机没有任何差异。
So we have to stop making the mistake of thinking that that there is no variation between individuals and what motivates them.
有趣的是，对于那些造成人际冲突的严重人格障碍，更多的养育和共情反而会让他们更具剥削性。
And and interestingly enough too, with the severe personality disorders that create the interpersonal strife, more nurture and empathy for them actually makes them more exploitative.
等等。
Oh, hang on.
所以不是。
So no.
等等，等一下。
Wait wait a second.
所以你的意思是，这些很多人对惩罚无动于衷，反而被共情所鼓励。
So you're saying you're telling me that a lot of these people are immune to punishment and encouraged by empathy.
是的。
Yes.
我们现在看到，这种情况出现在那些混蛋身上。
Now we see the we see this in Fuck.
实际上，我们在临床实践中确实看到这种情况：当你与患有严重人格障碍的人合作时，他们会主动破坏治疗进程。
We actually see this in clinical practice, which is interesting because when you work with individuals who have severe personality disorders, they actively put wrenches in the therapy process.
他们会让整个过程偏离轨道。
They derail the process.
以哪些方式？
In what ways?
他们利用你的同理心和对你无条件的积极关注，以及你对他们叙述的相信。
Well, they exploit your empathy and your unconditional positive regard for them and you believing their narrative.
他们利用了这一切。
They exploit all that.
因此，在临床环境中对待和应对他们，非常清楚地反映了他们在个人生活中如何运作——他们破坏并操纵叙事，使你们无法达成共识。
So treating them and dealing with them in a clinical setting is one very telling of how they operate in their personal lives, where they're derailing and manipulating the narrative so that you guys don't reach a common ground.
这看起来对大多数人来说完全违背直觉，但事实上他们正是这样做的。
Seems like completely counterintuitive to most people, but that's what they're in fact doing.
他们故意让你无法与他们达成共识。
They're making it so that you can't reach a common ground with them.
所以，就是这样。
So there's that.
抱歉。
So sorry.
关于这一点，他们试图维持控制和距离。
Just on that, they're they're trying to maintain maintain control and distance.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
我会给你我知道的，或者我认为你想要的那些东西——某种表演式的坦白，或逐步透露一些我已提供的信息，但那很可能也是虚假的，因为我理解这种动态。
I'll give you what I know or what I think that you want from me, some sort of performative revelation or revealing a degree of, titrated, information that I've given you, but that's probably fake as well, because I understand the dynamic.
我明白你的奖励机制是什么。
I understand what your reward function is.
哦，这次会谈中我真让他们敞开了心扉。
Oh, I've really got them to open up during this session.
这使得治疗关系得以继续下去。
And that allows the therapeutic relationship to keep going
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
以一种符合游戏规则的方式进行，而实际上并不必真正参与游戏。
In in a manner that it's supposed to, like, within the rules of the game without actually having to play the game.
没错。
Correct.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
嗯，是的。
Well well, yes.
显然，大多数治疗师都忽略了这一点。
Well, seemingly, the and most therapists, this goes over their head.
所以他们以为你取得了巨大进展，正在好转，其实你只是假装合作。
So they're thinking that you're making, like, great strides and you're progressing because you're feigning collaboration.
你有没有接触过，我明白你一直在为这些人的受害者工作。
Have you ever worked so I I understand that you work with the victims of these people.
你有没有直接接触过这些人本身？
Have you ever worked directly with the the people themselves?
是的。
Yeah.
我应该澄清一下。
I should clarify.
我以前做过。
I used to.
我不再做了，但以前曾经长期做过
I don't anymore, but I used to for a very
很长一段时间，好的。
long Okay.
你有点像从前的卧底警察，现在转型成了真正的侦探之类的。
You're a little bit like an ex undercover cop that's now turned into a proper detective or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
所以告诉我那是什么感觉。
So tell me what it's like.
告诉我，当你坐在一个患有第九十九百分位B类人格障碍的人对面时，是什么体验。
Tell me what it's like to sit down opposite somebody who has ninety ninth percentile cluster b personality disorder.
就描述一下那种经历吧。
Just, like, just describe that experience.
当我们谈论治疗情境时，有一点非常重要，那就是移情和反移情。
When we're talking about in in a in a therapeutic context, something that's really important to mention is is transference and countertransference.
所以，你希望我为你的听众详细讲讲吗？
So do I do you want me to go into that for your audience?
给我们做一个简要的概述。
Give us a give a brief overview.
我了解到，有趣的是，我之所以笑，是因为这是我从读言情小说中学到的为数不多的事情之一。
I learned that you know, interestingly enough, I'm grinning because it's one of the few things that I've learned from reading chick novels.
我读过亚历克斯·迈克利德斯的《沉默的病人》。
I read The Silent Patient by Alex Michaelides or Andrew Michaelides.
书中的一个主要角色是一位治疗师，他试图让这位病人开口说话。
And in it, one of the main protagonists is a therapist who's trying to get this patient to speak.
于是，他去找他的联合治疗师，寻求帮助来应对这位极其难缠的病人。
And, he goes to his co head therapist who's trying to help him get through this very difficult patient.
书中有一句话：‘跟我谈谈移情和反移情吧。’
And there's this line, tell me about the transference and countertransference.
那时我刚开始从事心理治疗，大约两年前。
And this was as I was starting to do therapy about two years ago.
于是我满怀自信地去告诉我的治疗师，我明白了转移和反转移是什么。
And, I went in all all impressed with myself to tell my therapist that I learned what transference and countertransference was.
但我并不是通过正规研究学到这些的。
But I didn't learn about it from proper research.
我是通过读一本典型的、登上《今日美国》畅销榜的女性惊悚小说学到的。
I learned about it from reading, like, an absolute like, USA Today best selling chick thriller.
不过，不管怎样，转移和反转移，当你和一个有B类人格障碍的人坐在一起时，等等。
But, anyway, transfer and counter transfer, you're sitting down with somebody with a cluster b, etcetera.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，总的来说，我们在生活和人际关系中都会产生转移和反转移。
Well, I mean, just just in general, we we we all transfer and counter transfer in life and human relationships.
这并不仅限于治疗场景，但在治疗中注意到这一点很重要，因为它能让你深入了解互动中正在发生什么。
It's not just exclusive to therapy, but it's important to notice that it's happening in therapy because it gives you a lot of information as far as what's happening in the interaction.
所以，简单来说，转移就是患者将情感投射到治疗师身上。
So, I mean, transference, in the simplest terms, is the feelings that are transferred onto the therapist by the patient.
反移情是指治疗师在与患者互动时内心产生的一些情绪或情感反应。
Countertransference are some of the feelings or emotional reactions that take place inside of the therapist while they are interacting with the patient.
所以这之所以重要，是因为我们可以提出一些有趣的问题，比如：如果我现在坐在一起的是别人，我会产生这种感觉吗？
So the reason why that's relevant is because we get to ask cool questions like, would I have been feeling this if I were sitting with anyone else right now?
还是说，我此刻被激活的这种情绪，正是源于我与这位患者之间特有的互动模式？
Or is this feeling that just got activated in me, is it directly related to the dynamic of this of this person with that I'm interacting with?
因为它开始揭示出，患者在治疗之外的日常生活中，可能如何被他人体验，而他们自己或许并未充分意识到。
Because it starts to tell you information about how maybe other people are experiencing them outside of of therapy in their personal life that maybe they're not super aware of.
甚至一个自恋者也可能真正走进治疗室，却完全不明白为什么别人都觉得他们如此冷漠。
And they might actually even a narcissist could genuinely come into a therapy office and not have a clue why everybody thinks they're so insensitive.
对吧？
Right?
与此同时，治疗师却在察觉到他们的冷漠，并对此产生反移情反应。
All the while, the therapist is picking up on their insensitivity and having a countertransference reaction to this insensitivity.
天哪。
Like, gosh.
和这个人待在同一个房间里感觉很难受。
It feels hard to sit in a room with this person.
我感到自己无能。
I feel incompetent.
我感到害怕。
I feel scared.
我感觉在他们到来之前，我和现在不一样了。
I feel, like, different than I did before they showed up.
对吧？
Right?
所以这真的很重要。
So it's it's really important.
但当你和符合B类人格障碍标准的人相处时，通常会产生一种反移情，或者说，典型的或常见的反移情反应——也就是治疗师在和他们相处时感受到的情绪，我刚才已经提到了几个。
But the typical countertransference that results when you're sitting with somebody who meets the criteria for cluster b, or I I should say, yeah, typical or common countertransference, so what the therapist feels in the room with them, is you feel I I I said a a couple of them just now.
你常常会强烈地感到自己无能，觉得自己不会做这份工作，或者没有资格做这份工作。
You oftentimes, you just start to overwhelmingly feel incompetent, Like, you don't know how to do your job or you're not qualified to do your job.
记住，当你和这样的人坐在一起时，这种感觉就会出现。
And remember, this is just coming as you're sitting with someone.
你今天早上开车来上班时，并没有想过这些。
It's you weren't thinking about it earlier today on the drive to work.
你当时还在想，真期待去上班。
You were thinking, oh, I can't wait to go to work.
我做得还不错。
I I do a pretty good job.
你知道的吗？
You know?
我有一整个满负荷的诊所。
I have a full practice.
然后这个人一进来，你突然就觉得你根本做不好这份工作。
Then this person comes in, and all of a sudden, you feel like you can't do your job.
对吧？
Right?
所以这就是
So that's
那是什么？
What is it?
那是什么？
What is it?
那是什么？
What is it?
他们在做什么？
What are they doing?
那究竟是什么
What is it that
他们正在贬低你，却并不告诉你他们在贬低你，而你却开始觉得自己无能。
They're devaluing you and not telling you that they're devaluing you, but you're starting to feel incompetent.
所以，这是有严重人格障碍的人可以轻易地植入环境中的东西。
So this is something that that somebody with pretty severe personality pathology can sort of just put into the environment.
他们可以在不发一言的情况下，将这种氛围投射到环境中。
They can export this out into the environment without saying a word.
你觉得他们是故意针对吗？
Do you think they're mean to?
这是他们想要的结果，还是只是附带产生的副产品？
Is this is this an outcome that they want, or is this a spandrel that's come along for the ride?
之前你问过关于目的和进化视角的问题。
So earlier, you were asking about purpose evolutionary perspective.
我认为这是一个值得深入研究的进化视角。
I would say this is an evolutionary perspective that would be important to look into.
他们能否在环境中、在空气中施加这种影响，以获得某种优势，而他们自己甚至在当下并未完全意识到，但这种影响正在发生，并开始对他们有利？
Can they put this spell into the environment, into the air for some sort of advantage for themselves that they might not even fully be aware of in the moment, but it's it's happening, and it's starting to work for them?
它让人想要竞争。
It makes people it makes people want to compete.
让我展示给你看，我有多能干。
Allow me to show you just how competent I am.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我会超额完成。
I will do I will over deliver.
我会超额，因为有一种奇怪的个人竞争感。
I will over because there is this odd sense of interpersonal competition of one.
哦，其实根本没有。
Oh, it's actually of none.
对吧？
Right?
只是你而已。
It's just you.
对吧？
Right?
这并不是你之间的竞争。
It's not a it's not a competition between you.
我需要证明自己，因为你似乎对我并不印象深刻。
It's that I need to prove myself because you don't seem impressed by me.
对我印象深刻吧。
Be impressed by me.
好的。
Okay.
我会再多做一点。
I'll do a bit more.
我会再多做一点。
I'll do a bit more.
我会再多做一点。
I'll do a bit more.
要、要、要、要终于。
Be be be be finally.
请至少承认我就在这里。
Please just recognize that I'm here.
是的。
Yeah.
或者如果我能让专业人士告诉我我无能，那我就能主导治疗了，这意味着如果他们感到无能，可能会更认同我。
Or if I can get the professional to tell me to feel incompetent, then I get to direct the treatment, which means maybe if they feel incompetent, they'll agree with me more.
所以你看，把他们从专家的高高在上拉下来。
So see, take them off their high horse of expertise.
现在我就能稍微得到我想要的东西了。
Now I get to kind of get what I want from them a little bit.
也许我可以稍微蒙骗他们一下。
Maybe I could pull the wool over their eyes a bit.
他们更脆弱一些。
They're a bit more vulnerable.
这并不完全是完全有意识的，但对我来说，我仍然会把这种策略称为蓄意的虐待，因为你并没有带着公平对话的意图出现。
This isn't exactly 100% conscious, but to me, I would still refer to that tactic as intentional abuse, because you're not showing up with the intention of playing fair even in the conversation.
你知道的？
You know?
还有呢？
What else?
你还感受到什么？
What else do you feel?
恐惧和绝望。
Fear and dread.
明白吗？
K?
而且，你并不总是清楚自己害怕什么或绝望的原因是什么，但你可能会突然产生这种感觉。
And it's not always, like, 100% conscious of what you fear or what the dread is, but you can all of a sudden come up with this feeling.
我们的大脑中还有一个检测或反欺骗的网络，会被这类手段劫持。
We also have a detection or a deception detection network in our brain, which gets hijacked by these types of tactics.
你能感觉到，当你遇到足够高明的操纵者时，你可能会停止思考，觉得自己无能。
You you you you feel it, you and you stop thinking if if you get somebody who's good enough at manipulation, you could stop thinking, I'm feeling incompetent.
我之前并不是这样的。
I wasn't before.
现在我却是了。
Now I am.
这说明了什么？
What's that about?
你可能会只是想，也许我并没有自己以为的那么优秀。
You might just think, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was.
这对自恋型虐待的受害者来说，是非常重要的一句自我提醒。
And that would be a really important thing for a victim of narcissist to to say to themselves.
也许我并没有
Maybe I'm not as
当然。
Of course.
因为这消除了他们关于‘我没错’的防御。
Because that's dissolved their defenses around I'm not in the wrong.
他们才是错的。
They're in the wrong.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一下，这发生在毫秒之间。
And this happens in milliseconds, by the way.
当你与人互动时，这一切都是在无意识中发生的。
This is all happening unconsciously when you're interacting with someone.
所以像我这样的人，你知道，我可能领先几步，但绝非免疫。
So so someone like me, you know, I'm a few steps ahead, but not by any means immune.
我永远不会告诉任何人，因为即使是这方面的顶尖专家，也从不敢声称自己永远不会被突然袭击。
And I would never tell anybody, because even the the foremost experts of this would never claim that they could never be sucker punched.
窥视。
Gazied.
巧妙。
Finesse.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
但这并不是要成为一个人类测谎仪，去洞悉每个人的一切。
But it's not really about becoming a human lie detector and knowing what what everyone else is all about.
你并不是想这么做，而是要留意到：当我和这个人在一起时，我感到自己无能。
That's not what you're trying to do, but but you're trying to notice when I'm with this particular person, I feel incompetent.
我感到恐惧。
I feel dread.
我感到恐惧。
I feel fear.
我感到不安全。
I feel insecurity.
但在我的其他大多数关系中，我并不会这样行事。
And in most other relationships in my life, I don't operate that way.
在这种特定的互动中，到底发生了什么，让我产生这种感觉？
What's happening in this particular dynamic that's making me feel that way?
如果治疗师在与可能具有社交适应不良人格的人互动时，确实应该留意这些方面。
That's kinda some things that a therapist would want to certainly be aware of if they're interacting with someone who potentially has a a socially maladaptive personality.
顺便说一下，如果你的睡眠出了问题，入睡困难、半夜随机醒来、早上昏昏沉沉，Momentous 的睡眠技巧可以帮到你。
A quick aside, if your sleep's been off, you're taking ages to fall asleep, waking up at random times, feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous's sleep hacks are here to help.
它们不是那种常见的、过量添加褪黑素的催眠补充剂。
They are not your typical knock you out supplement just overloaded with melatonin.
它只包含经过充分验证的成分，剂量精准，能帮助你更快入睡、整夜安眠，并在早上醒来时感觉更放松、更有活力。
It only has the most evidence based ingredients, perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning.
这些东西简直是改变游戏规则的神器。
These things are an absolute game changer.
我每天晚上都吃。
I take them every single night.
当我出差时，它们简直太棒了，因为已经预先分好剂量。
And when I'm on the road, they're unbelievable because they're predosed.
你只要服用这个，你的睡眠就会改善。
You just take this, and your sleep will improve.
标签上写的成分就是产品里实际含有的，绝对没有其他东西。
What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else.
如果你还有保险，他们提供三十天无条件退款保证，所以你可以完全无风险地购买。
And if you're still insured, they've got a thirty day money back guarantee, so you can just buy it completely risk free.
试试看。
Use it.
如果你不喜欢，或者睡眠没有改善，他们会全额退款给你。
If you don't like it, if your sleep doesn't improve, they'll just give you your money back.
他们对自己产品有信心到这种程度。
That's how confident they are that you'll love it.
此外，他们支持国际配送。
Plus, they ship internationally.
现在，通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问 livemomentous.com/modernwisdom，并在结账时输入 modernwisdom，您可以享受首次订阅 35% 的折扣，以及三十天无风险退款保障。
Right now, you can get a 35% discount on your first subscription and that thirty day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom using modernwisdom at checkout.
那就是 livemomentous.com/modernwisdom。
That's livemomentous.com/modernwisdom.
结账时输入 modernwisdom。
Modernwisdom at checkout.
你刚才提到，这些人根本不是故意这样做的。
How you mentioned there about these people don't even mean to do it.
这种现象在某些情况下是无意识发生的，在其他情况下也是如此。
It's happening in in in some forms unconsciously and in others.
在B类人格群体中，反社会人格障碍，嗯。
Of the of the population of cluster b personality, antisocial personality disorder Uh-huh.
人们，患者。
People, patients.
他们中有多少人清楚自己在做什么并有意为之，又有多少人受制于自己的行为模式？
How many of them know what they're doing and mean to do it, and how many of them are at the mercy of their programming?
我想这是一个难题，因为我们在这里讨论的是能动性、同理心，以及识别并希望改变的能力。
And I suppose this is a difficult question because what we're talking about here is agency over empathy and ability to recognize and wish to do different.
但不幸的是，我们所讨论的这种人格特质会削弱你产生同理心的能力。
But unfortunately, the very personality trait that we're talking about curtails your ability to do the empathy thing.
因此，一个人可能很难体会到自己缺乏同理心所造成的伤害，也难以产生改变的愿望。
So it might be hard for someone to empathize with the damage of their lack of empathy and wish that they could do different.
你明白我这里的问题吗？
Would you understand the question here?
也就是说，有多少人享受自己所做的事情，又有多少人正在与之抗争？
Like, how many people revel in what they're doing, and how many people are fighting against it?
是的。
Yeah.
这是个很好的问题。
It's a great question.
这些就是我们所说的自我协调性障碍。
So these are what we call ego syntonic disorders.
这意味着他们对自己的状态感到舒适。
What that means is they're comfortable in their own skin.
好的。
Okay.
因此，他们不会将这些互动的后果视为症状或副作用，也不会思考：我该怎么办？
So they're not experiencing the aftermath of these interactions as symptoms or side effects and wondering, what am I gonna do about this?
每次我跟某人待在同一个房间里，他们都会开始感到恐惧。
Every time I'm in a room with somebody, they start to feel fearful.
我怎么了？
What's wrong with me?
他们不会这样想。
They don't think that way.
如果一个人会有这样的想法，那他经历的就是自我不协调，即自我不和谐。
If a person who would think that way would be experiencing something that's ego dystonic, ego dystonia.
这正在以我无法忍受的方式干扰我的生活。
This is interfering in my life in a way that I can't tolerate it.
它让我感到不舒服。
It's making me uncomfortable.
我想摆脱它。
I wanna rid myself of it.
我会不计一切代价停止做这件事、感受这种情绪、说这些话、做这样的梦，无论是什么。
I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stop doing this thing, feeling this thing, saying this thing, having this dream, whatever.
这就是自我不协调。
That's ego dystonic.
这意味着这个人意识到这是一个问题。
That means the person's aware that it's a problem.
他们不喜欢这些问题源自于自己。
They don't like that it's originating in themselves.
他们想摆脱它。
They wanna get rid of it.
人格障碍没有这种过程，因为这些是自我协调的。
Personality disorders don't have that process because they have these are egocentonic.
这意味着他们与自己的状态是和谐的。
So what that means is they're in harmony with the way they are.
他们只是在别人指出他们的行为方式时才感到冲突。
They just experience conflict when other people confront them about the way they are.
所以他们内心没有任何动力去改变，因为他们不认为问题出在自己身上。
So so nothing in them is internally motivated to to change because they don't think they that the problem is originating with them.
好的。
Okay.
所以这是其中一部分。
So that's one part of this.
因此，这种改变有多大的主动性呢？
How intentional as a result of that?
我会说，这和内向者有意识地营造适合其内向性格的环境一样有意识。
I would say it's as intentional as an introvert cultivating environments to cater to their introversion.
它的有意识程度就是这样。
That's how intentional it is.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，如果你是内向者，你会主动选择那些符合你内向倾向的环境。
So what I mean by that is if if you're an introvert, you're gonna you're gonna select environments that cater to your introversion, your natural inclination to be introverted.
那么内向具体包括哪些内容呢？
And what what does introversion entail?
对吧？
Right?
因此，你会开始创造符合这种特质的环境，而人格障碍患者也正是这样做的。
So you're gonna start creating environments that cater to that trait, and that's exactly what individuals with personality disorders do.
他们会根据自身带入环境的特质，有意识地培养、选择和改造环境。
They cultivate, select, modify their environments intentionally based on the traits that they bring to the environment.
有哪些具体的方式？
What sort of ways?
他们都会做些什么？
What are the things that they do?
比如，一个自恋者想要成为关注的中心，就会想办法塑造自己所处的环境。
Well, like like a narcissist who wants to, you know, be the center of attention is gonna find a way to make an environment they're in.
他们会刻意营造环境，选择要说的话、要做的事，以及在环境中如何行事，以获取他们想要的东西——也就是关注。
They're gonna cultivate the environment and select things to say and do and operate in the environment to get what they want from it, which is attention.
因此，他们会故意表现出具有吸引注意力的行为。
So they're gonna they're gonna intentionally behave in ways that are attention seeking.
而一个内向者则会故意表现出把注意力引向他人的行为，然后私下恢复能量，而不是去寻求社交刺激，因为这对他们来说并没有吸引力。
Whereas an introvert is gonna intentionally behave in ways that draw attention to others, and then they're gonna regroup privately rather than go get stimulated socially because that's not that doesn't do it for them.
所以，无论是什么特质，你所采取的行为都会受到驱动，目的是为了培养和强化与该特质相符的感受。
So whatever the trait is, those behaviors are gonna the the behaviors that you engage in are gonna be motivated to make that to cultivate how you feel with that trait.
为什么它被称为B类群？
Why is why is it called cluster B?
有A类吗？
Is there a cluster A?
是的。
Yeah.
有的，是的。
There's yeah.
这是个好问题。
That it's a good question.
我的意思是，它们被称为集群障碍，因为特征——不是症状——特征和特性会聚集在一起并相互重叠，形成不同的障碍。
I mean, they're they're called cluster disorders because the the features, not symptoms, the features and characteristics cluster together and overlap into different disorders.
有A类。
There's cluster a.
A类被认为是一群古怪和奇特的人。
The cluster a's are considered the odd and eccentric bunch.
所以是古怪、怪异的行为，奇特的行为。
So odd kind of bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors.
B组人格障碍的特点是人际操纵性强、利用性强、情绪戏剧化且不稳定。
The cluster b's are the more interpersonally manipulative, exploitative, dramatic, erratic.
这些就是B组人格障碍。
So those are the cluster b's.
而C组则是焦虑和恐惧型的群体。
And then the cluster c's are the anxious and fearful cluster.
这些障碍以恐惧和焦虑为核心特征，而不是戏剧性、不稳定或危险行为——这些通常是我们描述B组障碍的方式。
So disorders that operate around fear and anxiety being, like, the central feature rather than drama or erratic or dangerous, which is what we would how we typically describe the cluster b's.
对于属于A组的人，通常人们会用什么术语来形容？
What would a commonly understood term be for people who are cluster a?
你说的‘通常术语’是什么意思？
What would a commonly under term be?
是的。
Yeah.
比如，你提到的自恋者和
Like, you know, you're talking about narcissist and
好的。
Okay.
比如偏执型或者
Like paranoid or
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
或者分裂型，也可以这么发音。
Or schizoid or schizoid is interchangeably pronounced that way.
另一个集群是分裂型。
The other cluster a is schizotypal.
所以我们有分裂型、分裂样型或分裂样型和偏执型，它们都属于A类。
So we have schizotypal, schizoid or schizoid and paranoid are the cluster a's.
然后C类包括回避型、依赖型，我现在突然想不起来第三个了。
And then the cluster c's are the avoidant, the dependent, and the I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the spot.
第三个C类是什么？第三个C类是什么？
What's the third what's the third cluster c?
强迫性人格障碍。
Obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
回避型强迫性人格障碍与强迫症完全不同。
There's avoidant obsessive compulsive personality, which is completely different than OCD.
它们不是一回事。
Those aren't the same.
好的。
Okay.
当我们看A群、B群、C群时，它们是否构成一个连续谱系？
So when we look at cluster a, cluster b, cluster c, do these fit on a spectrum?
如果你要画一个三维或二维图来展示这些群组之间的关系，这样的图存在吗？还是说它们是完全不同的独立体系？
If you were to make a three d or a two d graph of how the clusters sit together, does that exist, or are these completely different universes?
它们并不是完全不同的独立体系，因为它们给个体及其人际关系带来的问题，直接源于这个人典型的性格特征。
So they're not completely different universes because the problems that they create in the individual and in the individual's relationships are directly related to the who the person characteristically is.
在A群中，这些个体通常表现得古怪、奇特。
So in cluster As, these individuals are characteristically odd and eccentric.
明白？
K?
在B群中，他们通常表现得戏剧化、不稳定、具有威胁性，并且在人际互动中极为严重。
In cluster b's, they're characteristically dramatic, erratic, dangerous, and severe interpersonally.
而在C群中，他们则通常表现得恐惧和焦虑。
And then in the cluster c's, they're characteristically fearful and anxious.
因此，他们所有的关系都基于这些类型的动机或内在认知运作。
So all their relationships operate based on those types of motivations or intrinsic perceptions.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
好的。
Alright.
回到先天与后天的争论，为什么‘受过伤害的人会伤害他人’这种观点如此吸引人？
Going back to the sort of nature nurture debate, why is the idea that hurt people hurt people so attractive?
如果行为遗传学和罗伯特·普洛明，以及生物银行的数百万人都能提供相反的解释，那为什么这种说法依然如此诱人？
What makes that such a seductive explanation if behavioral genetics and Robert Plumman and a couple of fucking million people from the biobank can can explain otherwise?
是的。
Yeah.
我想其中一个原因是，罗伯特·普洛明的研究并不是什么阴谋论。
Well, I think one is because, like, the work of Robert Ploman this isn't a this isn't conspiracy theory.
我的意思是，这已经被承认了。
I mean, it's admitted.
它在学术界和临床界一直被有意忽视，因为人们真的害怕，我们当前进化阶段所认定的负面行为，可能存在着某种策略和模式。
It's been admittedly swept under the rug in academic circles and and clinical circles because it seems to really intimidate people that there there might be, like, strategy and patterns to to what we have decided is a negative behavior at this point in our in our evolution.
对吧？
Right?
负面行为可能是天生的或根深蒂固的，这种可能性让人难以接受。
That that the that the the negative behavior could potentially come naturally or be ingrained is terrifying for people to accept.
因此，他们转而创造了这样一种观念：一切行为都是由环境决定的。
So what they've done instead is created this idea that everything is environmentally determined.
所以人们更倾向于这种观点的原因是，如果环境造成了这些行为，那么环境也可能阻止、预防或改变它们。
So the reason why there's there's preference for that is if the environment created it, maybe the environment can stop it, prevent it, or modify it.
嗯，我看看。
Well, I look.
我想这其实是在讨论行为遗传学的整体争议。
I suppose this this is a debate around behavioral genetics overall.
是的
Mhmm.
但普拉曼是二十世纪被引用次数第五多的心理学家。
But Plumman is the fifth most cited psychologist in the twentieth century.
那可是有弗洛伊德的世纪。
That was a century that had fucking Freud.
那可是有荣格的世纪。
That was a century that had Jung.
那是一个心理学领域自诞生以来经历最重要转折点的世纪，而他却是第五被引用最多的。
That was a century that had some of the biggest turning points since it it it invented the field of psychology as we know it today, and he's the fifth most cited.
而且他所在的行业曾邀请他上过节目。
And the fact that the industry he's been on the show.
我想是第320集左右。
I think it was episode 320 something.
那已经是很久以前的事了。
It was a long time ago now.
哦，真酷。
Oh, cool.
行为遗传学竟然如此禁忌，根本无法谈论，这简直让我难以置信。
The fact that behavioral genetics is so heretical to talk to talk about.
这真他妈让我震惊。
It just fucking blows my mind.
你认识科里·克拉克吗？
Do you know Corey Clark?
你熟悉她吗？
Are you familiar with her?
她是一位进化心理学家。
She's a evolutionary psychologist.
她做过一项很棒的研究。
She did a great study.
她向美国所有高等教育机构的心理学教授发放了一份调查问卷，让他们匿名回答一系列问题，了解各种情况，以把握心理学教授群体的文化氛围和现状。调查发现，教授们最不愿意让学生接触的两个话题——最‘不可言说’、最该被禁止的内容——正是进化心理学和行为遗传学。
She sent a study out to, a survey out to every psychology professor in The United States at a higher education institution, got them to fill in some anonymous questions, asking about a variety of things, getting a a cultural temperature, the topography of of what, the psychology psychology professor world is like, the two most unspeakable, this should be banned, people should not learn about it, the two spiciest subject areas that most professors were most likely to say they shouldn't be taught, evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics.
我认为这恰恰印证了你刚才所说的话：在一个平等、优绩导向且充满资本主义竞争的世界里，如果胜利者可以拥有自己的成功，而失败者必须承担自己的失败，那么任何让你感觉未来并不完全掌握在自己手中的东西
And I think it speaks exactly to what you were saying there, that in an egalitarian world that's a meritocracy and also a capitalist competition, if the victors get to own their successes and the losers have to own their failures, anything that doesn't feel like your future is entirely in your hands
是的。
Mhmm.
都会让人感到无比无力，因为它让你觉得，你人生的结果在你出生之前就已经注定了。
Is unbelievably disempowering because it makes it feel like your your, the outcomes in your life are predestined before you're even born.
正如你所说，这并不是决定论的。
And as you said, this isn't deterministic.
这是概率性的。
It's probabilistic.
正如普勒曼所说，它并不会预先决定。
As Plumman says, it does not predetermine.
它只是倾向于影响。
It predisposes.
但它确实让人感到无力。
But it is it is disempowering.
发现自己的健康状况被基因决定，这确实令人感到无力。比如克里斯·海姆斯沃斯拍过一部关于自己健康的纪录片，发现他携带了一些相对罕见的基因突变，这些突变会增加他患阿尔茨海默病的风险。
It is disempowering to find I mean, Chris Hemsworth did that that, documentary about his health, and he found out that he's got a couple of relatively rare mutations that predispose him to Alzheimer's.
这纯粹是生物学层面的问题，所以他现在通过服用补充剂、调整饮食和生活方式来试图弥补这种风险。
And that's it is this is just raw biology, and he's now taking supplements and adjusted his lifestyle on this diet and all the rest of it to try and compensate for this.
是的。
Yeah.
但是
But
当你有了孩子，如果孩子患有糖尿病或自闭症，你并不一定在寻找某种能治愈自闭症的干预手段。
to find out that as a you know, you've got your kid, and if you were to have a child that had diabetes or autism, you're not looking necessarily for some sort of intervention to cure their autism.
你只是希望更好地管理它。
You're looking to manage it.
没错。
Correct.
因为我们对心理问题的病理化方式，与对生物学问题的病理化方式是不同的，尽管在很大程度上，心理学本质上也是生物学。
Because we we don't pathologize the pathologization occurs more differently when we get into psychology than it does when we get into what feels a bit more like biology, even though biology is psychology for the most part.
是吗？
It is?
是的。
Yeah.
我只是觉得，我都能一直聊下去。
It's just I I I could talk about this all day.
我觉得这太，是的。
I think it's so Yeah.
我觉得这他妈太有趣了，老兄。
Think it's so fucking interesting, dude.
那种对进化论解释的抵触，本质上是说你被一些远早于你存在、且超出你掌控的力量推动着，或者至少你必须永远与之抗争，这种感觉让人无力；而行为遗传学简直就是这种感觉的加强版，对吧？
The the pushback against evolutionary explanations that basically say you are being, shunted forward by by forces that were, came about long before you and are kind of outside of your agency, or at the very least you're gonna have to permanently fight against, that feels disempowering and behavioral genetics is that on steroids, right?
是它的千倍之强。
It's that times a thousand.
你改变不了你的基因。
Can't change your genes.
你或许可以通过一些表观遗传学手段来调节它们的表达，但基因治疗，据我们所知，目前还处于早期阶段。
You can maybe turn them up and turn them down with some epigenetic stuff, but gene therapy, as far as we know, is pretty nascent.
所以，是的，这是一个很有趣的领域。
So, yeah, it's an interesting area.
不过，我特别喜欢普勒曼的观点，他谈到，当我们从这个角度去看时，一切本质上都是差异。
Something that I love about what Plumman does though, is he talks about how everything is just when we look at it from that perspective, everything is then just differences.
对吧？
Right?
这一点我很欣赏。
Which I appreciate.
我喜欢用‘障碍’这个词，因为我认为，一旦你跨越了某种伤害和功能失调的特定阈值，我们就必须给它一个不同的名称。
I like to use the word disorder because I think once you cross a particular threshold of of harm and dysfunction, we we have to call it something different.
我的意思是，我们可以说这是一种巨大的差异，但在临床上，更合理的说法是：好吧。
I mean, we we can say it's like a huge difference, but clinically, it makes more sense to say, okay.
这就是我们超出了所能接受的平衡范围的地方。
This is where we're operating outside of the the balance of what we can accept.
所以我们不能只说，哦，这个人只是非常独特和不同。
And so we have to call it something other than just, oh, this person's very unique and different.
我们必须说，这是基于我们试图共同构建的社会类型而产生的问题行为。
We have to say, this is problematic behavior based on the type of society we're trying to collectively create.
对吧？
Right?
我不觉得那些被认为是问题的两个主题令人惊讶。
I don't find it surprising that those are the two subjects that are considered, you know, to be the problematic ones.
我不明白为什么人们会对这一点如此畏惧。
I I'm not sure why people are so intimidated by that.
我知道，问题在于，弗洛伊德几乎主导了这种不可撼动、无法验证的理论体系。
I I do know that, like, the problem is too is, like, Freud kind of commanded the ship of, like, having this impenetrable, untestable theory.
因为没人能真正证明它是错的，因为它可能更加潜意识。
Like, no one can ever really prove it wrong because it just might be that much more unconscious.
是的。
Yep.
永远找不到。
Never find it.
而且我认为
And I think
那是无意识贯穿始终。
that It's it's unconsciousness all the way down.
是的。
Yeah.
但那不是，我的意思是，那不是科学。
But that's not I mean, that's not that's not science.
你必须能够检验它。
You have to be able to test it.
好的。
Alright.
让我们来探讨一下人们可能表现出来的不同方式。
Let's get into some of the different ways that people can present.
所以自恋。
So narcissism.
是的。
Yeah.
我在网上看到无数视频，教你怎么知道你是否和一个自恋者在一起，怎么摆脱一个自恋者。
I I I see an endless number of videos online about how to know if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, how to escape a narcissist.
当谈到自恋作为其背后的驱动力时，自恋真的是源于低自尊吗？
When it comes to narcissism as a the motivating force behind it, is narcissism about is it really about low self esteem?
还是另有原因？
Or is it about something else?
那它到底是什么？
What's it about?
不是。
No.
自恋是对自我形象的过度投入，尤其是他们偏好的那种形象。
Narcissism is excessive investment in one's image, the image that they prefer.
这是一种对理想化形象的过度投入，代价是牺牲了真实的自我。
It's excessive investment in that preferred image at the expense of any authentic self.
因此，这并不是因为他们处于一种羞耻的空虚中，导致自尊低下——这是最常见的误解。
So it's not that they have low self esteem in this void of shame, which is the most common idea.
如果你愿意，我可以推荐你一些行为遗传学家和进化心理学家，他们的研究能彻底推翻这种理论，但这根本不是一种基于羞耻的障碍。
I can direct you to behavioral geneticists and evolutionary psychologists that can blow that theory out of the water if you want, but it's not a shame based disorder.
这是一种对理想化形象的过度投入，代价是未能培养出真实的自我。
It's excessive investment in one's preferred image at the expense of cultivating a true self.
所以，是的，他们会受伤、被冒犯、变得防御性强，容易被触发，感到受伤，因为他们从未在那层如水面般薄薄的自我反射之下，培养出任何能接纳不同意见的内在基础。
So, yeah, they get hurt and wounded and offended and defensive, and they get triggered and and they get injured because they haven't cultivated anything to receive a disagreement underneath that thin layer of reflection that's on the pond that narcissus is gazing at.
下面什么都没有，因为从未有人去审视或培养过。
There's nothing under there because nothing has been examined or cultivated.
所以，他们情绪上非常敏感，但这并不是因为羞耻。
So it's like they're emotionally thin skinned, but it's not because of shame.
而是因为他们从未在这些表象之下建立任何情感上的力量。
It's because they didn't put any emotional muscle underneath any of that.
对吧？
Right?
但他们更喜欢保持现在的样子。
But they prefer to be the way they are.
我觉得这真的让很多人感到困扰。
I think this really bothers people.
谁会愿意选择做一个与任何人都合不来的人呢？
Why would anybody prefer to be someone who doesn't get along with anybody?
他们觉得自己高人一等。
They're entitled.
他们不相信平等。
They don't believe in equality.
所以某种程度上，他们预期自己不会与任何人相处融洽，因为每个人都必须承认他们比自己更优秀，他们才能与别人相处。
So in a way, they expect not to get along with anybody because everybody has to accept that they are better than them in order for them to get along with everybody.
不知从何时起，这种观点被扭曲成了所有行为都是补偿低自尊的产物。
Somehow, some point, this got morphed into this idea that it's all compensatory, that it's all compensation for low self esteem.
这些理论，顺便说一下，都是基于自恋者向专业人士提供的报告得出的。
Those are just theories based, by the way, on the reports of the narcissists telling professionals that.
也许是一种不可靠的自我陈述。
Perhaps an unreliable self witness.
也许吧。
Perhaps.
在我们继续之前，我非常支持减少酒精摄入，但历史上，无酒精啤酒的味道简直像屎。
Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, nonalcoholic brews taste like ass.
你不需要来一次大 reset。
You don't need to be doing some big reset.
也许你只是想喝一瓶冰镇啤酒，第二天早上却不觉得难受，这正是我如此推崇 Athletic Brewing Co 的原因。
Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.
他们有五十多种无酒精啤酒，包括IPA、淡色艾尔，甚至还有限量版的鸡尾酒灵感风味，比如帕洛玛和莫斯科骡子。
They've got 50 types of NAs, including IPAs, Goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule.
关键是。
And here's the thing.
你可以随时喝。
You can drink them anytime.
深夜、清晨、看球赛、打球，都没关系。
Late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter.
没有宿醉。
No hangover.
毫无妥协。
No compromise.
这就是我为什么与他们合作的原因。
And that is why I partnered with them.
你可以在附近的超市或酒类商店找到Athletic Brewing Co的畅销系列，或者更好的选择是，直接订购包含四种口味的完整组合装，送货上门。
You can find Athletic Brewing Co's best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door.
现在，通过访问下方描述中的链接或前往athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom，你可以享受首次在线订购15%的折扣。
Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.
网址是athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom。
That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.
脆弱型自恋和夸大型自恋有什么区别？这种区别会体现出来吗？
Difference between vulnerable and grandiose narcissism, does this show up?
因为我知道这些术语。
Because I I know these terms.
我可以假装自己懂自恋这一套。
I can pretend that I know what I'm talking about with narcissism.
但这是胡扯，还是有临床依据的？
But is that bullshit, or is that clinically validated?
我肯定你很清楚它们是什么。
I'm sure you know exactly what they are.
夸大型自恋者是那种你一眼就能看出他们自大的人，也就是说，他们并不掩饰自己的自大。
A grandiose narcissist is somebody who you see their grandiosity overtly, meaning they're not they're not concealing it.
脆弱型自恋，根据不同的说法，有一种定义是他们隐藏了自己的脆弱。
Vulnerable narcissism, depending on who you ask, one definition of vulnerable is they're concealing their vulnerability.
所以，隐性自恋者就是那些隐藏自己脆弱的人。
So a covert narcissist is someone who conceals their vulnerability.
在我看来，隐性自恋者实际上是暗中自大的人。
To me, a covert narcissist is somebody who covertly is grandiose.
你知道的。
You know?
他们表现得好像不是，但其实确实是。
They act like they're not, but they actually are.
所以这其实是……
So it's Well, that's
所以你用的是'隐性'这个词，而不是'脆弱'。
so you're using you're using the term covert rather than vulnerable.
这是更符合临床准确性的术语吗？
Is that the more clinically accurate term?
很多人把隐性自恋和脆弱型自恋混为一谈，因为都涉及对脆弱性的掩饰。
Covert and vulnerable narcissists are used interchangeably for a lot of people because of the concealing of the vulnerability.
是的。
Yep.
外显型自恋者是指那些不掩饰自己认为应得到特殊待遇的人，你老远就能看出来。
An overt narcissist is somebody who doesn't hide the fact that they believe that they are entitled to special treatment, So you're gonna see them a mile away.
他们知道自己是
They know they're
你觉得他们的成长背景和动机不同吗？
Do you look at them as having different origin stories coming from different places, different motivations?
不。
No.
我个人不这么认为。
I personally don't.
我认为，这两种人的自大只是表现方式不同，但他们的核心特征仍然是内在的自大。
I think that grandiosity is just being expressed differently in those two individuals, but the central feature of both of those individuals is still their inherent grandiosity.
但他们对这种自我的信念是不同的，对吧？
But their self belief in that is different, right?
不，
No,
我也不同意这一点。
I would disagree with that too.
我认为他们真的深信自己优于他人，并且理应得到特殊待遇。
I think their belief is that they truly have a sincere conviction that they're superior to others and entitled to special treatment.
这时我们就需要探讨这种信念的多样性或表现形式了。
That's when we're gonna get into heterogeneity or the expression of that belief.
看起来非常不同。
It looks a lot different.
有意思。
Interesting.
所以，我对脆弱型或隐性自恋的理解是，自恋型人格真的相信‘我是世界上最好的’，而我也相信自己是世界上最好的。
So my understanding of vulnerable or covert narcissism was that the grandiose narcissist genuinely believes I'm the best in the world, and I believe that I'm the best in the world.
脆弱型自恋者则会表现出‘我是世界上最好的’，以此来掩盖自己其实觉得一无是处的事实。
The vulnerable narcissist would present I'm the best in the world to try and cover up the fact that I don't think I'm worth anything.
他们是那种补偿型的人，内心深处因隐藏的羞耻感而痛苦。
They're the compensatory one who's secretly suffering from all this hidden shame.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Mhmm.
我不同意。
I disagree.
我认为问题在于他们还不够羞愧。
I think that the problem is they're not shameful enough.
他们缺乏足够的羞耻感来刹车，停止虐待他人。
They're not they don't have enough shame to put on the brakes to stop mistreating people.
他们的行为系统中没有能够刹车的驱动力，因为他们缺乏同理心和良知。
There's no motivating factor in their operating system that stops that puts on the brakes because they're lacking in empathy and lacking in conscience.
最近的研究也表明，我们历史上所称的脆弱型表达或脆弱型表现的自恋，与边缘型人格障碍有百分之九十的相似性。
They've done recent studies too to show that what we've historically referred to as the vulnerable expression or the vulnerable presentation of narcissism is ninety percent identical to borderline personality disorder.
而边缘型人格障碍的诊断标准、特质，是另一种B类人格障碍，当人们听到“边缘型人格”这个词时，通常会想到对被抛弃的恐惧、频繁的自杀行为或自杀企图。
And criterion criterion variables, traits, Borderline personality disorder is another cluster b disorder that is often associated with most people, when they hear the term borderline personality, they think of fear of abandonment, lots of suicidal gestures or suicidal attempts.
有一种持续的空虚感，以及恐慌和拼命试图避免被抛弃的行为。
There's this chronic feeling of emptiness and these attempts, panic panic and frantic attempts to avoid abandonment.
但如果你仔细观察边缘型人格背后的核心特质，就会发现这些特质正是我们看到的脆弱型自恋者在人际关系及日常生活中的表现方式。
But what what actually is underneath a lot of that are if you look at the traits underneath the borderline personality, are what we see how we see vulnerable narcissists operating in relationships and in in general.
存在大量神经质特质和负面情绪倾向。
There's a lot of neurotic traits, negative affectivity.
因此，这种冲动行为十分明显。
And so there's this impulsivity.
他们会突然爆发攻击。
There's a lashing out.
焦虑水平达到病态程度。
There's a pathological levels of anxiety.
对吧？
Right?
自恋型人格的夸大型也有同样的表现吗？
Is that the same in the grandiose?
嗯，不是的。
Well, no.
从某种意义上说并不相同，因为他们自己并没有那样感知自己。
It's not the same in the sense that they're not they're not experiencing themselves that way.
但你知道，就像我们有一些人外表看起来很自恋，也有些人是内在自恋的。
But, you know, there's just like we have we have people who look narcissistic very externally, we there are also people who are narcissistic internal.
为什么会这样呢？
How come okay.
所以，我经常在网上看到人们谈论的一种常见模式是：自恋者会把某人拉近，然后突然推开。
So one of the common patterns that I see people talk about online is narcissists pulling somebody in close and then suddenly pushing them away.
嗯。
Mhmm.
为什么这似乎会成为一种模式呢？
Why why why does that seem to be a a pattern?
因为自恋者生活在一个二元世界里，事情要么是他们想要的一切，要么就一无是处。
Well, because they own narcissists live in a dichotomous world where something is either everything they want or nothing they want.
他们没有灰色地带、刹车踏板或暂停与限制的机制在他们的操作系统中。
They don't have the gray area, brake pedal, pause limitation mechanism in their operating system.
他们不具备正确使用这一功能的能力。
They don't have the function to use that properly.
所以，某个人要么被理想化，意味着他们是任何人可能想要的一切；要么被贬低并抛弃，意味着他们不够理想，因此毫无用处。
So somebody's either idealized, which means they're they're everything that someone that they could have ever wanted, or they're devalued and then discarded, which means they're they don't they're not ideal, so they're they're useless.
自恋者看待人类和关系，是基于实用性，而不是价值。
Narcissists see human beings and relationships as far as utility, not not worth.
他们并不看一个人有多大的价值。
They don't look at people how much they're worth.
他们看的是一个人有多有用。
They look at how useful they are.
那精神变态者呢？
What about psychopaths?
我想找出什么是可接受的水平，然后把它提升到失调的程度。
What's what makes so I'm trying to I'm trying to find what the acceptable level of something is and then turn it up to what the dysfunction is.
那么，精神病态者的伤害与普通人发脾气有什么不同？
So what makes a a psychopath's harm different to somebody who's just losing their temper?
非常好。
Excellent.
每个人都有过发脾气的时候。
Everybody's lost their temper.
没错。
Right.
这是一种反应，一种防御，是人性的一部分。
And that's a reaction, and that's a defense, and that's part of being human.
我想区分我们所讨论的这两种情况：在自恋者身上，我们看到的是以牺牲平等为代价的夸大自我，这就是核心动力——以牺牲平等为代价的夸大自我。
I would say to differentiate between these two that we're talking about, with narcissism, we see grandiosity at the expense of equality, and that's the engine, grandiosity at the expense of equality.
至于
With
对于精神病态者，我们看到的是以牺牲任何荣誉为代价对他人进行剥削。
psychopaths, what we see is exploitation of others at the expense of any sort of honor.
他们不尊重人类。
They don't honor humans.
他们完全不重视人类生命。
They don't have any value for human life whatsoever.
他们看到别人时，不会认为这个人应该活着，或者有权利活着。
They don't see another person and think this person should be alive or has the right to be alive.
他们想的是，我会利用这个人。
What they think is, I will exploit this person.
这是一个弱肉强食的世界。
It's a dog eat dog world.
如果他们遭遇了不幸，那是他们活该。
If something bad befalls them, they should have known better.
这就是一种精神病态者的思维方式。
That's a that's kind of a psychopath's mentality.
大多数精神病态者具有更积极的夸大倾向。
Psychopaths, for the most part, have more of a active grandiosity.
所以如果你得罪了他们，他们一定会让你付出代价。
So if they if you do cross them, they're gonna show you.
他们会让你付出代价。
Like, they're gonna make you pay.
有些自恋者有一种被称为被动自大的特质，他们根本不在乎你，懒得让你付出代价。
Some narcissists have what's called a passive grandiosity where they don't care enough about you to make you pay.
你应该早就知道他们比你优越，所以他们根本不会浪费精力在你身上。
You should have just known they were better than you, and so they're not gonna bother themselves with you.
哦，这很有趣。
Oh, that's interesting.
所以我想这意味着在某些情况下，精神病态者可能更危险，是的。
So I imagine this means that in some situations, psychopaths are more dangerous Yes.
从报复的角度来说。
Retributively.
但肯定也存在某些情况，自恋者或某些类型的自恋者可能更危险。
But there must be some situations where narcissists or certain types of narcissists might be more dangerous.
当你开始更多地陷入剥削和欺骗行为时，这就进入了恶性自恋的领域，这些行为在精神病态者或反社会者中很常见。
So you venture into the malignant narcissist is when you're starting to move more into the exploitation and conning that you see common in psychopathy or antisocials.
因此，这里存在一种过渡，恶性自恋就像是NPD和精神病态之间的桥梁。
So there is like a sort of a bridge to that, where if you the malignant narcissist is kind of the bridge between NPD and psychopathy.
当然不是普遍情况，但只是为了形象地说明：确实存在一种极端的自恋形式，我们通常称之为‘黑暗三联征’自恋，即包含精神病态、马基雅维利主义和自恋。
Again, not across the board, but just to give a visual that, yes, there is some there is a severe degree of narcissism that and then that's what we would refer to more as like the the dark triad narcissism, where you have psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and and narcissism.
黑暗三联征这个概念相当有趣。
The dark triad thing's kinda fascinating.
这个概念主要来自彼得森和其他一些做播客的人。
It's between Peterson and a bunch of other people that do podcasts.
它已经像学校里最受欢迎的新女孩一样，人人都想谈论它。
It's become, like, the hot new girl in school that everybody wants to talk about.
现在又出现了‘黑暗四联征’。
Now the the dark tetrad.
对吧？
Right?
但那个是什么？那个到底是什么？
But what's that what's what's that one that's what's that one?
施虐狂？
Sadism?
是那个吗？
Is that one?
是的。
Yeah.
当你再加一个的时候，那就是第四个了，没错。
Is that the that's the fourth one when you go for the when you add another anyway That's right.
一个人同时患有自恋、精神病态、马基雅维利主义和施虐狂的情况有多常见？
How how common is it for somebody who has got narcissism to also have psychopathy, to also have Machiavellianism, to also have sadism?
好问题。
Good question.
并不是所有自恋者和精神病态者都具有马基雅维利主义倾向。
Not all narcissists and psychopaths are Machiavellian.
好吧？
Okay?
所有精神病态者都是自恋者。
All psychopaths are narcissists.
所有精神病态者都是病态自恋的。
All psychopaths are pathologically narcissistic.
并非所有自恋者都是精神病态者。
Not all narcissists are psychopaths.
好的。
Okay.
必要但不充分。
Necessary, but not sufficient.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
然后是马基雅维利主义，我认为他们是精神病态且自恋的。
And then Machiavellian, I would say they're psychopathic, narcissistic.
所以他们两者兼具。
So they're both.
我的意思是，并不是所有自恋者都是马基雅维利主义者。
So, I mean, they're the as far as not not all narcissists are Machiavellian.
并非所有自恋者都是精神病态的。
Not all narcissists are psychopathic.
所有马基雅维利主义者和精神病态者都是自恋的。
All Machiavellian and psychopaths are narcissistic.
所有马基雅维利主义者都是精神病态者吗？
Are all Machiavellian psychopaths?
哦，好问题。
Oh, good question.
我想，如果他们真的在实践，理论上你可能算是马基雅维利主义者，但你永远不会做出那些事。
I guess if they're practicing I guess you could be Machiavellian in theory, but you wouldn't ever do the things.
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