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你是怎么开始思考职业遗憾这个想法的？毕竟你的职业生涯看起来非常成功且充满乐趣。
What got you into thinking about the idea of career regret as somebody that's had a very seemingly successful and fun career?
你为什么会想到这一点？
Why did you think about it?
我曾经做过二十五年的风险投资人，在那之前四年，我在华尔街担任卖方分析师。
I I used to so I spent twenty five years as a venture capitalist and the four years before that as a sell side analyst on Wall Street.
在这个过程中，我开始写作，以此来让自己与众不同。
And through that process, I started writing as a way to differentiate myself.
因此，我是早期的博主之一。
And so I was a early blogger.
我刚开始的时候用的是传真机，这说明我有多老了。
I was actually a fax, that's how old I am, when I started.
我养成了一个习惯：每当有想法时，就把它记下来。
And I got in the habit of when I had ideas jotting them down.
然后，你会知道，很多想法最终都没有发展起来，但一旦我加以发展，它们就会变成一篇博客文章。
And then, you know, either developing them a lot of them ended up just undeveloped, but I would if I developed them, they would become a blog post.
在我的职业生涯中，有一段时间我大量阅读传记。
And there was a period in my career where I was reading a ton of biographies.
我读完第三本后，发现这三个人虽然来自截然不同的领域，却有着一条共同的线索，于是我记下了这些笔记。
And I finished this third one and saw a through line with these other two from people that were in wildly different fields, and I jotted those notes down.
这个想法逐渐酝酿、发酵，慢慢有了自己的生命力。
And that thing kind of simmered and breathed and and took on a little bit of a life.
后来，德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校商学院的院长邀请我给NBA班做一次演讲。
And I got asked by the dean of the business school here in Austin at the University of Texas to talk to the NBA class one day.
我当时想：我能做这个吗？
And I was like, can I do this?
他说：当然可以。
And he said, sure.
于是我把它翻出来，稍微整理了一下，做成了一个PowerPoint演示文稿。
So I pulled it out and developed it a little bit as a PowerPoint presentation.
总之，他们把这段演讲上传到了YouTube。
Anyway, they posted that on YouTube.
有几个人注意到了，你们节目的一些嘉宾，比如詹姆斯·克莱尔也注意到了。
A few people noticed, some people that have been on your show, James Clear noticed.
他把这段内容发布在了自己的网站上，随后有人开始鼓励我把这个想法发展成一本书。
And he posted it on his website, and people started prodding me to develop it as a book.
几年前，我决定开始从风险投资家的身份退休。
And a few years ago, I decided to begin retirement as a venture capitalist.
但说实话，这花了不少时间，很遗憾。
It actually takes a while, unfortunately.
就在那段空档期，我开始考虑做这件事。
And in that window, I thought about doing this.
我考虑写一本书，很多人都希望我写一本。
I thought about doing a book, and a lot of people wanted me to do a book.
很多人希望我写一本关于风险投资或投资的书，或者讲讲优步经历的内幕，但我更被这个想法吸引。
A lot of people wanted me to do a VC book or an investment book or a tell all book on the Uber experience, and I was more drawn to this idea.
还有其他一些人也鼓励我，说：去干吧，这让我觉得更真实。
And a few other people prodded me who said, you know, like, go do and it felt more authentic.
这感觉像是能产生更大影响的事情。
It felt like something that could have a bigger impact.
在我人生的这个阶段，我被这个想法吸引。
And I was drawn to that at this moment in my life.
我被这个特定的想法吸引。
I was drawn to this particular thing.
所以我花了大约六年时间，与一位合著者和研究员一起进一步开发和完善它。
So I spent like six years working with a co writer and researcher developing it further and making it this way.
但你用了‘遗憾’这个词。
But you used the word regret.
我们曾做过一项调查，在SurveyMonkey上问：如果你能重来，会选择不同的职业吗？
We did along the way, I launched a survey on SurveyMonkey that said, if you could go back and start over, would would you do a different career?
有七成的人回答了‘是’。
And seven out of 10 people said yes.
后来我把这个结果带到沃顿商学院的人才分析团队，他们做了更科学、覆盖面更广的版本，结果是六成，但趋势非常相似。
And I eventually took that to Wharton People Analytics, and they did a more scientific version of it, much broader audience, and came back six out of 10, but very similar.
这种职业遗憾的概念很有趣。
And that notion of career regret's interesting.
我有机会与丹尼尔·平克交谈，你可能认识他，他写过一本书。
I had the opportunity to talk to Daniel Pink, who you may know, who wrote a book.
他之前来过节目谈过遗憾。
He's been on the show about regret.
关于遗憾。
About regret.
是的。
Yep.
在这本书中，他说人们最大的遗憾，而且他还给我看了一张图表。
And in that book, he says the biggest regrets people have and and and he showed me a graph.
实际上，随着年龄增长，临近生命尽头时，遗憾更多来自于未采取的行动。
It actually gets worse as you get older towards end of life are regrets of inaction.
他称之为勇气遗憾。
He calls them boldness regrets.
就是你没去做的事。
It's what you didn't do.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
比如，人类很擅长原谅自己：犯了错，吸取教训，以后不会再犯。
Like, humans are great at forgiving themselves, made a mistake, learned from it, won't do it again.
是的。
Yep.
但他们却反复纠结于自己没尝试过的事。
But they ruminate about what they didn't try.
所以，你知道吗，自从我六年前开始研究这个话题以来，我一直深思熟虑这个问题。
And so I you know, I've I've thought about this long and hard now since I've been working on it for six years.
我担心我们现在的教育体系已经变成了一条传送带。
I fear our current education path has become a bit of a conveyor belt.
人们把孩子们推入这个流水线，逼着他们去从事通常被称为‘安稳’的工作——至少在人工智能出现之前是这样。
People like, we're pushing these children into this meat grinder, and we're pushing them towards jobs that are typically called safe jobs, at least before AI.
我认为他们正在学会拼命努力。
And I think they're learning to grind.
这正是安吉拉·达克沃斯一直在说的。
That's what Angela Duckworth's been saying.
现在，我们教会了他们坚持，但如果他们并不热爱这件事，坚持就会变成倦怠。
Now the perseverance part, we've taught them, but if they don't have the love for it, it turns into burnout.
因此，我写这本书的目的，就是希望能让尽可能多的人有勇气去追求自己真正想要的生活。
And so the purpose of this book that I wrote is hopefully to give as many people permission to go do what they want in life.
你知道的。
You know?
当然，我明白这本书不会影响到每一个人，但如果有一部分人读了之后，能坚定地相信自己可以成功投身于热爱的事业，我认为这将对世界产生巨大的影响。
And and look, I'm sure it won't touch everybody, but if there's a subgroup of people who read this and have the conviction that they can go succeed in this thing they love, I think that'll be a huge impact on the world.
我的意思是，那些真正成功的人，往往就是那些热爱自己所做之事的人。
Like, I think the people that do that are the people you know these people, like, that are just love what they do.
他们不仅更成功，而且我觉得他们会散发出一种正能量，影响周围的人。
And not only are they more successful, but I think they radiate a bit, you know, and spread positive energy.
他们也有模仿性。
Well, they're mimetic as well.
他们成为他人的榜样。
They become a role model for other people.
没错。
That's right.
他们看到别人去尝试了自己想做的事，哇，结果没成功。
They go and do, oh, I he took a chance on that thing that he wanted to do, and wow, it didn't work out.
但他的生活并没有崩溃，或者成功了，他真的很开心。
And his life didn't blow up, or it did work out, he's really happy.
没错。
That's right.
想到我们似乎更后悔没有行动，而对大胆行动的后悔却很少，是的。
Thinking about the fact that we seem to regret inaction, boldness regret Yeah.
你有没有反思过，为什么你觉得是这样？
Have you reflected on why you think that is?
人类心智中是什么导致我们
What it is in the the human mind that causes us to
更倾向于这种果断性？我本来想提一下我在所有行为科学书籍中读到的众多偏见之一，但我打算换个角度，我认为我们经常反复思虑。
prefer this decisiveness over I was hoping to bring up one of the many biases I've read about in all the behavioral science books, but I I'm gonna go to a different place, which is I think we ruminate a lot.
就像我们的大脑，总是不断地在脑海中重播各种事情。
Like like our brains, you know, constantly are are replaying things in our minds.
也许做梦也是如此。
And maybe that's what dreaming is too.
但正因为如此，我们很容易想象这些‘如果当时’的情况。
But I think because of that, it's very easy to imagine these what ifs.
比如，为那些没有实现的‘如果当时’构建一个故事，尤其是积极的故事。
Like, to build a story, especially a positive story around the what if that didn't get done.
然后你将它与你当前的生活进行比较。
And then you compare that to your current life.
不幸的是，这可能会引发焦虑，但我确实认为这可能是原因之一。
And unfortunately, that can create anxiety, but I do think that might be part of it.
你可能熟悉齐加尼克效应。
You'll be familiar with the Zeigarnik effect.
我不了解。
I'm not.
告诉我吧。
Tell me.
哦，太好了。
Oh, cool.
有一位心理学家开始研究服务员，他们发现，只要订单还没结清，这些服务员的记忆力就惊人地好。
So there was a psychologist who began studying waiting staff, and they realized that these waiting staff had unbelievable recall while the tables were still open.
你知道吗，你有没有去过餐厅，看到服务员走过来，手里没笔、没纸、也没iPad，却能准确记住所有订单？
You know, you you've ever been to a restaurant and you see some wait waiter come up and they stood, no pen, no pads, no iPad seen that.
他们双手背在身后，说：这人疯了吧。
Hands behind their back, and they go, this guy's crazy.
他简直疯了。
He's insane.
我肯定会搞错一些东西。
I'm definitely gonna get something wrong.
是的。
Yeah.
有时候你可能会想，我要额外加点培根的抱子甘蓝，不对。
And sometimes you might go, I'm gonna we'll take the sprouts by extra bacon, no Right.
不要山羊奶酪。
No goat's cheese.
但你只是想看看是否没问题。
But you wanna just see if if alright.
我漏掉了，没带笔记本。
I missed a no no notepad.
对。
Yeah.
这项研究最终发现了蔡格尼克效应，这是一种存在于人类思维中的开放循环与闭合循环偏差。
And the study ended up finding out the Zeigarnik effect, which is an open loop closed loop bias that exists inside of the human mind.
当餐桌还开着的时候，服务员能够非常准确地回忆起客人的订单。
While the tables were still open, the servers were able to recall what the orders were very closely.
但一旦他们结账离开，就完全想不起来了。
And as soon as they went, that you nothing at all.
你知道，这在几乎每个人的生活中都是一个完美的例子。
You know, a perfect example in almost everybody's life with this.
我实际上在这方面很糟糕，但这个规律依然成立。
I'm quite bad at this actually, but it still holds true.
酒店房间。
Hotel rooms.
假设你从一个城市搬到另一个城市，再搬到下一个城市。
Let's say that you're moving from city to city to city.
你并不难记住你现在所住的酒店房间。
You're not bad at remembering the hotel room of where you are now.
是的。
Yeah.
但是如果
But if
如果我问你，你上上一家酒店住的是哪间房？
I was to say, where did you which hotel room did you stay in two hotels ago?
我我735，我不知道。
I I 7 35 I don't know.
我完全不知道。
I have no idea.
这和电视剧结尾设置悬念让你想看下一集是同样的道理
It's the same reason why cliffhangers work at the end of TV shows to get you to watch the next
一集。
one.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
开放循环，人类的思维厌恶开放循环。
The open loop the the human mind abhors an open loop.
是的。
Yeah.
我感觉是这样的
And I get the sense that
我明白你的意思。
I see what you're saying.
在关于大胆行动的遗憾方面，你主要拥有的就是一个开放循环。
When it comes to boldness regret, the main thing that you have is an open loop.
是的。
Yeah.
人类的思维如此厌恶开放循环、不确定性和模棱两可，以至于我们宁愿想象一场灾难，也不愿面对不确定性。
Now the human mind abhors open loops and uncertainty and ambiguity so much that we'd rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with the uncertainty.
这正是很多焦虑的来源，那种对未来的担忧，没错。
That's what a lot of anxiety, sort of future projected Yep.
遗憾就是这样。
Regret kind of is.
对吧？
Right?
我不知道会发生什么，所以我想象最坏的情况。
I don't know what's going to happen, so I'll imagine the worst thing.
至少在那一刻，我获得了确定性，即使这种确定性很可怕。
And at least for a moment, I have certainty even if the certainty is horrible.
我认为，在某些方面，这是一回事，只是反过来。
And this is the same thing, I think, in some regards, but in reverse.
可能发生过什么？
What could have happened?
是的。
Yeah.
我本可以做些什么？
What could I have done?
有一个很有趣的角度可以反过来想，当杰夫·贝佐斯试图说服自己去创办亚马逊时。
There's a there's an interesting way to flip it on its head when Jeff Bezos was trying to convince himself to go start Amazon.
他当时有一份在D的工作，非常出色。
He had this incredible job at D.
E。
E.
而大卫·肖并不想让他离开，所以试图劝他不要走。
Shaw, and David Shaw didn't want him to leave, so he was trying to talk him out of going.
贝佐斯有一个方法，可以在YouTube上找到，他自己说这很书呆子气，但他称之为‘后悔最小化框架’。
And Bezos has this thing, it's on YouTube, you can go watch it, but he self proclaimed it was very nerdy, but he called it the regret minimization framework.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他想象自己80岁时，向那个80岁的自己寻求建议，该怎么做。
And he just imagined he's 80 years old and was trying to get advice from his 80 year old self about what to do.
于是他把自己代入那个未来的情境，那里他可能会产生对缺乏勇气的遗憾。
So he like put himself in that future place where he might have that boldness regret.
在我的职业生涯中，我曾有过两份工作，都是开始后不久就换掉了，直到我进入风险投资领域，那才是我真正梦想的工作。
And in my own career, people I had two different jobs I started and then switched before I got into venture capital, which was definitely my dream job.
在这两种情况下，工作几年后，我都会停下来反思，而我之所以想到这一点，是因为我在推广这本书的过程中。
And in both of those cases, a couple years in, I paused and reflected, and I only thought about this as I've been promoting the book.
我会停下来问自己：我想在这件事上做三十年吗？
I paused and reflected, do I wanna do this for thirty years?
我能快速在脑海中预演未来，但这种反思让我感到不满意。
And was able to like fast forward that in my brain, and I was unhappy with that reflection.
是的。
Mhmm.
是的。
Mhmm.
这促使我去思考接下来该做什么。
Which encouraged me to to think about what's next.
谈到最小化遗憾的框架，我非常喜欢，简直不敢相信它没有更普及。
When it comes to the regret minimization framework, which I love and I kind of can't believe isn't bigger.
我知道，在阅读你或我这类内容的人群中，这是大家都知道的。
I'm aware it is among people that read the sort of stuff that you do or maybe I do.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这是一个非常好的想法，我想杰夫还有其他方面可以让他广为人知。
Is a really wonderful idea, and I guess Jeff's got other stuff that he can be well known for.
所以，也许吧，你知道的。
So perhaps, you know
实际上，这与《高效能人士的七个习惯》中的‘以终为始’非常相似。
Well, it's it's actually quite synonymous with the the one of the seven habits of highly effective people begin with the end in mind.
它有一种类似的……嗯。
It has a it has a similar kind of Mhmm.
在看待遗憾最小化框架时，你看到人们在职业内外常犯的常见错误有哪些？
When looking at the regret minimization framework, what are the things that what are the common pitfalls that you've seen people do, even in both inside of their career and outside of it?
你一定反复思考过这个问题。
You must have reflected on this a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
我确实思考过。
I have.
我认为，尤其是针对现代的年轻人，有一个问题存在，因为我们构建了一种我称之为‘传送带’的东西。
One one thing that I think I especially with with the modern young people, I think one problem that I think exists because we've built this I call it in my book a conveyor belt.
乔纳森·海特称之为‘遗憾’——抱歉，是‘简历军备竞赛’。
Jonathan Hike called it a regret or a I'm sorry, a resume arms race.
我们为这些孩子建立了一条如此紧张的流水线。
We've built this this pipeline for these kids that's so intense.
我认为，当他们找到第一份工作时，会觉得这是所有投入的结果，因此觉得偏离这条路径就是在浪费之前的投入。
I think when they get to their first job, they feel like it's the result of all this investment, and they feel like tweaking any way away from that is is throwing away the investment.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
就像一种损失厌恶的情况吗？
Like a loss aversion type thing?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我投入了这么多，才考上这所大学，获得这个学位。
I invested all of this to get to this college, to get to this degree.
对。
Yep.
如果我偏离了这条路，那我岂不是浪费了所有时间？
And if I move away from that, did I just waste all that time?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而且你知道，尽管已经有很多研究做过，我可能记不清具体数字，但大学毕业后五年，有40%的人不再从事与自己专业相关的工作。
And, you know, this is despite the fact that in there's a lot of studies that have been done, like, I won't get the numbers exactly right, but like five years after college, 40% of people are no longer working in the field that was their major.
这个数字在十年后会更大。
And that number gets bigger at 10.
但这并不意味着他们不感到被困住，或者如果他们没有这种被困感，这个数字会不会更高。
But it doesn't mean that they don't feel trapped or that that number might not be higher if they didn't feel trapped.
当我跟年轻人提到这一点时，他们确实有一种压力，一种义务感。
And when I mentioned this to young people, there is this weight, there is this weight they feel, like an obligation
也许是在他们17岁时就锁定的决定。
maybe Decisions that they locked in when they were 17.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这还是另一回事。
Well, and that's another thing.
我年轻的时候，大学通常要到大二结束才让学生确定专业。
When I was younger, the colleges wouldn't let you declare a major until the end of your sophomore year.
很多学校现在就必须申请专业了。
Many schools, you have to apply to the major now.
所以我们把选择专业的决定时间，从大二结束提前到了高中三年级结束。
So we've moved the decision of what major are you gonna pick from the end of your sophomore year to the end of your junior year in high school.
这相当于把决定提前了三年，而人们没有足够的时间去探索，很多聪明人都说，我们给孩子们的探索时间太少了。
Like, that's, you know, three years forward and less time to there's a lot of people, a lot of smart people that just say we we don't allow children enough time to explore.
是的。
Yep.
而且，海茨也说过这一点。
And and, you know, Heights says it.
他写了一章，叫《让他们玩》或者《玩耍的丧失》之类的。
He has a chapter called let them or the loss of play or something.
里克·鲁宾也一直在强调这一点。
Rick Rubin's been pounding on this.
他在他的书中谈到了这个。
He talks about it in his
我们看了吉恩·唐吉的作品《世代》。
We looked at Gene Twangi's work, generations.
那是另一本吗？
Does is that another one?
是的。
Yeah.
所以《世代》真的非常有趣。
So generations is is really fascinating.
这闻起来像你。
This stinks of you.
强烈推荐。
Highly recommend it.
读一下，好的。
Read Okay.
我会的。
I will.
我会的。
I will.
她谈到了延长的青春期。
And she talks about extended adolescence.
是的。
Yeah.
有点类似于身高方面的某些现象。
Sort of twins with some of height stuff.
我们正经历着一种非常有趣的双重现象：在一个世界里，这些孩子被逼着更快地成长为成年人，是的。
We've got a real interesting duality going on, which is, in one world, you've got these kids that are sort of being forced to become adults more quickly Yes.
比以往任何时候都早。
Than ever before.
我们期望你了解自己未来三十年的职业道路，而你才17岁，就必须做出决定并付诸行动。
We expect you to know what you potentially, the set of railroad tracks for the rest of your life, the next thirty years of your career, and you're only 17, and you gotta know and apply.
但与此同时，孩子们却更晚才搬出家门。
And then at the same time, kids are moving out of the house later.
他们拿到驾照的时间更晚了。
They're getting their driver's licenses later.
他们找到工作的时机也更晚了。
They're getting employment later.
他们进入恋爱关系的比例更低了。
They're getting into relationships at lower rates.
是的。
Yeah.
饮酒更少，随意关系也更少。
Less alcohol, less casual.
所有我们通常认为属于成年标志的行为，现在都消失了，因为我们正试图强行让他们承担成人的结构责任。
All of the things that we would have typically associated with being an adult are not present as we're trying to force structural adulthood onto them.
他们在社交上非常不成熟，但在职业上却被加速推进。
They're socially very immature, professionally expedited.
他把它们联系在一起了吗？
And he ties them together?
只是因为
It's just because
吉恩·吉恩·唐吉。
Gene Gene Twangi.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我认为实际上不是。
I think that actually, no.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
很好的观点。
Great point.
我不确定，也不这么认为。
And I don't know, and I don't think so.
现在可能有些反抗情绪在发生，天哪。
Now there might be some rebellion going on that, oh god.
就像，一切都让我觉得我得好好整顿一下自己。
Like, everything just feels like I I need to get my act together.
我怎么能做这些其他事情呢？
How can I do these other things?
我的认知资源已经被占满了太多。
I just so much of my cognitive real estate is taken up.
我能理解这一点。
I could see that.
也许这是一种补偿机制。
Maybe that would be compensatory.
是的。
Yeah.
就像我提到的，我认为在达克沃斯出版《坚毅》大约十年后，她表示如果当初能将这本书定位为热情与毅力各占一半，她会更强调热情，因为她觉得我们教会了一整代高成就儿童如何拼命努力。
Like I mentioned, I think when when about ten years after Duckworth wrote Grit, she said that she wished she had positioned it as fifty fifty passion and perseverance, and if she could do it again, she'd put more on the passion because she thinks we taught a whole generation of of the high performer children how to grind.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们教会了他们坚持，而这
Like, we taught them to persevere, which is
我明白这一点。
Well and so I get that.
《坚毅》这本书影响巨大。
I grit was a massive book.
我不认为她应该把这些问题都归咎于她的笔下。
I don't think that she should lay at the feet of her pen the the the issues of this stuff.
但从个人发展的角度来看，我認為之所以更容易过度强调毅力而非热情，是因为热情更难被主动构建。
But I think one of the reasons why from a personal development standpoint, it makes it's a bit more seductive to over index on the perseverance than the passion, because the passion feels more difficult to engineer.
有道理。
Fair enough.
那我怎么得到它呢？
So how do I get the thing?
明白了。
Understood.
这条线，这些东西，感觉更平等一些
The line, the stuff, right, it feels a bit more egalitarian
是的。
Yes.
说不管你在做什么，只要你足够坚持，就能
To say, no matter what it is you're doing, if you hold hard enough, you can
我觉得这是最难的问题。
get I do think it is the hardest question.
什么最难？
What is?
找到它。
Finding it.
就像找到它并了解它，你懂的。
Like finding it and knowing it, you know.
了解它相对容易些，但找到它却很难。
Knowing it's a little easier, but finding it.
有很多17岁的年轻人，如果你问他们，你的热情是什么？
There are a lot of 17 year olds who appropriately, if you ask them, what is your passion?
你想做什么？
What do you wanna do?
他们很恰当地说，我不知道。
They appropriately say, I don't know.
因为这是事实，他们确实不知道。
Because it's the truth, they don't know.
但我认为这没关系。
But I think that's okay.
只是我们不应该强行追问这个问题。
It's just we shouldn't force the question upon.
你有这么一句话：人生是一场用进废退的考验。
You've got this line, life is a use it or lose it proposition.
是的。
Yeah.
那是什么意思？
What's that mean?
我的意思是，这和大胆的遗憾有关。
Well, I mean, it's tied to the the boldness regret.
对吧？
Right?
就像，当你走到生命尽头时，一切就都结束了。
Like, you're gonna get to the end and and then it's done.
只有当你像贝索斯那样，用他的遗憾最小化框架来思考时，你才会对这句话负责。
And and only if you think in the way that Bezos did with his regret minimization framework, you going to hold yourself accountable for that line.
认识到生命比我们任何人意识到的都要流逝得更快，然后就结束了。
The recognition that life moves much faster than any of us realize, and then it's done.
而且你可能会更早地被困住。
And you can get locked in even sooner.
如果你花光了所有积蓄，把自己束缚在一份无法离开的工作上，个人承诺也是如此。
If you spend up to your limits, freeze yourself in a job like that you can't leave, and you can do it with personal commitments as well.
我的第二段职业生涯是去了华尔街，我无法告诉你，有多少和我一起在华尔街工作的人，他们的年龄本不该有那么高的薪水，但他们必须在汉普顿租夏季度假屋。
My second career was, you know, going to Wall Street, and I can't tell you the number of people I worked in with Wall Street that had, for their age, ridiculously high salaries, but they had to place in the Hamptons, the summer lease.
他们试图加入那个会员俱乐部。
Like, they tried to get into the membership club.
他们把钱花到了极限。
Like, they spent right up to the limit.
嗯，是的。
Mhmm.
现在你就没法转行了。
And now you can't switch.
你知道的？
You know?
你无法切换了。
You can't switch.
是的。
Yeah.
你被锁定在极高的消耗速率中，这意味着你需要不断往里面加燃料。
You're locked in at this very high burn rate, which means you need to keep pouring fuel in the top of it.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
对于那些幸运地拥有不错薪水的年轻人，我强烈建议他们不要把收入全部花光，以便保留灵活性，能够换城市、换工作——这些可能才是对他们更合适的选择。
I I have like, for young adults that are lucky enough to have a job with a decent salary, I would heavily encourage them not to spend against it just so they can have the flexibility to do other things, move cities, change jobs, all of which may be the right path for them.
我们马上继续谈。
We'll get back to talking in just one second.
但首先，如果你最近感觉有点 sluggish，可能是你的睾酮水平出了问题。
But first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem.
它们在你的能量、专注力和表现中起着至关重要的作用。
They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance.
但大多数人根本不知道这些指标在哪里，也不知道出了问题该怎么办，这就是我与Function合作的原因——我想找到一种更智能、更全面的方式来真正了解我体内正在发生什么。
But most people have no idea where those are or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body.
他们每年进行两次实验室检测，监测超过100项生物标志物。
Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers.
他们有一支专家医生团队分析数据，并为你提供切实可行的建议，以改善健康和延长寿命。
They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan.
看到你的睾酮水平以及其他众多生物标志物在一年内的变化趋势，并获得切实可行的改善建议，能为你指明提升生活质量的清晰路径。
And seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better.
通常，进行这样的血液检测和分析需要花费数千美元，但通过Function，只需499美元。
Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's just $499.
现在，你还可以再减100美元，最终价格仅为399美元。
And right now, you can get a $100 off, bringing it down to $399.
点击描述中的链接或访问functionhealth.com/modernwisdom，获取我和我使用的相同血液检测套餐，并享受100美元优惠。
Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
那就是 functionhealth.com/modernwisdom。
That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这很奇怪，不是吗？
And the it's weird, isn't it?
因为灵活性实际上很难展示出来。
Because flexibility is actually a really difficult thing to show off.
灵活性本身很难展现，即使你能拍下自己在飞机上、度假时或某个地方的照片，但这又并非我们所说的那种灵活性。
It it doesn't it it's and even flexibility is only show offable in so much as you can take a photo of you on a plane or you at a holiday or you at a which, again, is not quite the flexibility that
你所说的话。
what you're saying.
我们正在讨论的灵活性。
That we're talking about.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我一直都在思考隐藏指标和可观察指标之间的区别。
So I I've always thought about this, the difference between hidden and observable metrics.
是的。
Yeah.
我们常常会用一个隐藏指标去交换一个可观察指标。
We'll often trade a hidden metric for an observable one.
没错。
Sure.
比如，用睡眠质量去换取稍微高一点的薪水。
You know, trade the quality of our sleep for a slightly bigger pay packet.
我们会牺牲周六原本属于自己的时间，
We'll trade the hours of a piece that we have on a Saturday
是的。
Yeah.
为了职位提升。
For position improvement.
我们会做出这样的交易，你知道，有些人会为了一个年轻、性感但很难相处的妻子，而放弃一个体贴、支持自己的妻子。
We'll trade mean, you know, some people will trade a caring, supportive wife for a very difficult, younger, hot one.
你知道，这种交易无处不在。
You know, the the the trades are everywhere.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得这种说法很好。
I I I think that's a good framing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以很多人，尤其是那些对工作和事业不太有热情的人，可能会认为，可以在别处获得满足感。
So is many people, especially people who maybe aren't so fired up with their jobs and their careers, might think, can get my fulfillment elsewhere.
为什么我要关心我的事业呢？它只是我每天九点到五点，或者八点到四点在做的事情而已。
What why why should I care about my my career is just a it's just the thing that I do from nine to five or whatever, eight to four every day.
我为什么要努力优化它呢？
Why why should I try and optimize that?
在工作中获得满足感是一种奢侈吗？
Is is being fulfilled at work a luxury?
我想我会说，我非常尊重那些持这种心态的人，就像你描述的那样，尤其是那些在他们可能不认为是职业的事情中真正 thriving 的人。
I guess what I would say is I have a immense amount of respect for someone who adopts that mindset, the one you described, especially if they're really thriving in something that may not they may not perceive to be an occupation.
这可能是宗教社群，也可能是他们做的志愿工作。
That could be a religious community, it could be volunteer work that they do.
我会提醒他们，这背后可能有一份职业，你知道，如果他们想一直待在其中的话。
I would highlight to them, there might be a career in that, you know, like if they wanted to be around it all the time.
但我的主要目标并不是告诉这些人他们不成功。
But my main goal isn't to tell those people they aren't being successful.
如果他们对这种生活方式感到快乐和充满热情，那非常好。
Like if they're happy and passionate about that lifestyle, like that's great.
我完全不会对这种生活方式有任何贬低。
I'm not I'm not casting any shadow on that whatsoever.
如果你是那种对工作极度不满，以至于影响了生活质量的人，或者更好的是，如果你内心隐隐有这种念头，但缺乏自信或觉得自己没有资格去追求它，那这就是我想让我的书被阅读的对象。
If you are the type of person that is either unhappy with your work, like so much so that it's impacting your quality of life, Or even better, if you're someone that has this inkling, this little notion in their brain, but maybe doesn't have the confidence or the permission, they don't feel like they have the permission to go do it, That's who I want to read my book.
就是这种人，我真心希望他们能读我的书。
Like, that's who I really, really wanna read my book.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
有个特别棒的故事。
There's this there's a there's a great story.
其实有几个这样的故事，但我还是选史蒂夫·哈维的那个吧。
There's a couple of these actually, but I'll I'll I'll I'll choose the Steve Harvey one.
有这么一个故事，我不知道你有没有看过，但你知道史蒂夫·哈维是谁吗？
There's a there I don't know if you've seen this, but you know who Steve Harvey is?
就是那个现在主持《家庭问答》的喜剧演员？
The comedian who does the talk does Family Feud now?
是的。
Yep.
他讲了这个故事。
He tells this story.
我记不清他是不是在奥普拉节目中讲的，说他七岁时，老师让他们做一个练习，在纸上写下长大后想成为什么样的人。
Did I think he told it on Oprah, that when he was seven, the teacher asked them to as an exercise to write down a sheet of paper what they wanted to be when they grew up.
据说他是最后一个被叫到的，老师说其他人的都读过了，但对他的那份，老师让他走到教室前面大声念出来。
And he he claims he got called last, and the teacher said said the others she read, but for his, the teacher made him come to the front of the room and read it out loud.
他当时有口吃，但他写的是：我想上电视。
Apparently, had a stuttering problem, but he said it said, I wanna be on TV.
老师以为他不认真对待这个练习，因此责备了他写这样的内容。
And she thought he was, like, not taking the the the exercise seriously, And she condemned him for writing that.
老师甚至打电话给他妈妈，他回家后因此挨了批评。
So much so that she called his mother and he got in trouble when he got home.
所以他被罚回房间了。
So he got sent to his room.
他担心爸爸会进来，狠狠教训他一顿。
He's worried that his dad's gonna come in there and read him the riot act.
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他爸爸走进来，坐在他旁边。
And his dad comes in and sits next to him.
这就是整个故事。
Here's the whole story.
他说，我们接下来要这么做。
And he says, here's what we're gonna do.
我们把这张纸放在你的床头柜上，我希望你每天都要读一遍。
Let's take that piece of paper and put it right here in your bed stand, and I want you to read it every single day.
当你听到这样的故事时，我认为很少有人能做到这一点。
And you hear a story like that, and I don't think there's a lot of people I think that that's a very hard thing to do.
我认为对于父母来说，我本人有三个孩子，也经历过我们正在讨论的这个阶段。
I think that for parents, and I I'm a parent of three and I've lived through this phase that we're talking about.
作为父母，你的直觉——某种意义上深植于你的基因中——就是照顾孩子的经济福祉。
Your intuition as a parent, like some in your DNA somewhere, is to look after the economic welfare of this child.
你希望他们过上好日子，而很难不把这主要与金钱联系起来。
You want them to live a good life, and it's very hard not to associate that mostly with money.
是的。
Mhmm.
所以史蒂夫·哈维的父亲为他做的这件事，我认为是非常独特的一件事。
And so this thing that Steve Harvey's dad did for him, I think, is kind of a really, like, a very unique thing.
我觉得这真的很难做到。
I think it's very hard to do.
我听到过麦康奈尔的一个非常相似的故事，关于他从法学院转到电影学院的时候。
And and I hear a story McConaughey has a very similar story about when he switched from law school to film school.
他父亲告诉他：别半途而废。
His dad told him, well, don't half ass it.
他说，这完全是他没想到父亲会对他大喊的话，而他父亲实际上给了他一种推动。
And he like, he said that was the last thing he he thought his dad was gonna yell at him, and his dad kinda gave him like this push.
而这正是我想让这本书做到的。
And that's what I want the book to do.
如果有人内心隐约想去做一些世界可能认为他们做不到、或不该去做的事，我希望这本书能激发这种潜在的人类潜能。
Like, if someone has that inkling that they wanna go do something that the world may not think they're capable of or think they should do, I'd love to unlock this latent human potential.
你知道这最终归结于什么吗？
You know what it comes back to?
这又回到了可量化、可观察和隐藏的指标。
It's quantifiable, observable and hidden metrics again.
可观察的指标是财务自由，他们赚了多少钱。
The the observable metric of financially free, this is how much they earn.
这是他们原本会走的路径。
This is the track that they would be on.
隐藏的指标是他们有多热情？
Hidden metric, how passionate are they?
他们在35岁时快乐吗？
Are they happy when they're 35?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我想，许多人可能面临的处境是：他们的一种版本成功转型了，而另一种版本却终生被困住。
So I guess one of the situations that so many people must be in is someone one version of them successfully pivots, and another version of them stays stuck for life.
是的
Yep.
为什么有些人能成功转型，而其他人却一直被困住？
Why does some people successfully pivot and and and others end up getting stuck?
嗯，我的意思是，你可以列出很多原因。
Well, I mean, there's a there's a you could come up with a number of things.
其中一个就是财务问题，我们已经讨论过了。
One of them is financial, which we've we've talked about.
你可能花销过大。
You could be overspending.
还有一种情况是你单纯在财务上陷入困境。
There's a there's a different case where you're just you're you're stuck financially.
比如，你过着朝不保夕的生活。
Like, you need you're living hand to mouth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
书中我提到一个叫珍·阿特金斯的人，我不知道你是否认识她，她可能是有史以来最成功的美发师。
There's a I have a I have a profile in the book of Jen Atkins, who I don't know if you know, she is probably the most successful hairstylist of all time.
她不仅达到了行业的巅峰，还推出了美容产品，并卖掉了那家公司。
Like, went not only achieved, touched the top rail of that, but then launched beauty products, sold that company.
但她带着仅有的300美元搬到了洛杉矶。
But she moved to LA with $300 in her pocket.
这并不是说每个人都能做到，但确实有很多人从一无所有、从最底层起步，最终找到了成功的道路。
And that's not to say anyone can do that, but, like, there there are stories of people with near nothing starting on the very bottom rung and finding their way to be successful.
有一个经典的段子讲的是在好莱坞从邮件室做起，大卫·格芬、巴里·迪勒这些人都曾从邮件室开始。
There's this classic meme of starting in the mailroom in Hollywood, and David Gefen and Barry Dillard, all these people started in the mailroom.
你知道的吗？
You know?
在那个行业里，这几乎是最低的起点了。
It's it's about as low rung as you have in that business.
所以我认为这是可能的，但你可能会感到经济上受困。
So I think it's possible, but you may feel stuck financially.
你可能会觉得无法到达那里。
You may feel that you can't get there.
而另一个情况，你知道，可能是一种这样的认知。
And then the other one, you know, it could be like this perception.
麦克康纳利曾认为他父亲希望他成为一名律师。
McConaughey had this perception that his father wanted him to be a lawyer.
很可能只是马修告诉他他会成为律师，而他也在支持这个想法。
It's probably just that Matthew had told him he was gonna be a lawyer and he was supporting that.
但这种压力也可能存在。
But but that weight can be there too.
比如，在某些文化中，当医生被认为是非常了不起的，在俄罗斯，做学者也是如此，你可能会感受到来自家人的压力，觉得这是我家人都会做的事。
Like, may feel I think there are certain cultures where like being a doctor is considered really in Russia, like being an academic was so you may feel pressure from your family as this is the thing people in my family do.
我见过这种情况，也遇过背负着这种压力的人。
And I've seen that, and I've met people who have that weight upon them.
这些都是可能限制这种转变的因素。
Those are all kind of things that could restrict this movement.
那恐惧呢？
What about the fear?
肯定有一大群人会想：如果这行不通怎么办？
There has to be a huge chunk of people that just what if this doesn't work?
这是一种弥漫性的，是的。
It's sort of ambient Yeah.
一种转瞬即逝的、如迷雾般的状态笼罩着他们。
Ephemeral, this fugue fog thing that's come down on them.
如果允许我说一下，我来告诉你为什么我会花六年时间把最初的演讲改写成一本书。
If allow me, like, to give you a little history of how or why I would say I spent six years turning the original presentation into a book.
我有一个强烈的目标，就是尽可能多地融入故事和叙事。
I had this thing I really wanted to achieve, which was to embed as much stories and narrative into it as possible.
我当时在听，我知道你曾邀请过摩根·豪斯
And I was listening I know you've had Morgan House
山羊。
the goat.
他绝对是传奇。
He's the absolute goat.
他参加了一个名为《为什么我们写作》的播客，谈论了大卫·珀尔。
And he was on a podcast called Why We Write talking about David Pearl.
叙事的力量。
The power of of narrative.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这本书的结构与大多数书籍不同。
And so the book is divided it's structured unlike most books.
它分为两部分，但这两部分是交错的。
It's divided into two parts, but they interleave.
每隔一章就是一个《大西洋》杂志篇幅的文章，讲述某个人从底层起步，带着明确目标最终登上顶峰的故事。
And so every other chapter is a Atlantic sized article about someone that started on the bottom rung with intention and made it to the top.
我之所以想加入这些内容，正是出于摩根所提到的原因：我认为这些故事更能深入人心。
And the reason I wanted to include those is precisely for the reason Morgan talks about, which is I think these things stick in your brain more.
很多同类职业类书籍读起来像教科书。
Like a lot of the books in the category that have done extremely well in career read like a textbook.
先做A，再做B，然后做C。
Do do a, then do b, then do c.
但它们缺乏这种能更深刻影响大脑的精神性。
But they don't have this kind of spirituality to them that I think can infect the brain a little bit more.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
完全正确。
It's 100% correct.
我的意思是，本·夏皮罗最著名的那句话‘事实不在乎你的感受’其实完全反了——感受根本不在乎事实。
I mean, Ben Shapiro's favorite the famous line of facts don't care about your feelings is as backward as it could be that feelings don't give a single fuck about the fact.
是的。
Yeah.
我们这里有八、九或十个，我本该记得确切数字，但现在想不起来了，这些人物传记。
So we have eight, nine, or 10, I I should know the exact number, but I can't recall right now, of these profiles.
我会把它们和原则交替着看。
And I alternate them with the principles.
我一直把它比作糖果和蔬菜之类的，但两者都要吃一些。
And it's I always thought about it like candy and vegetables or something, but you get some of both.
它让这些想法活了起来。
It brings the ideas to life.
是的。
Yes.
我认为我讲这个长故事的原因，是为了回答你关于恐惧的问题。
And I think the reason I told that long story was an answer to your question about fear.
我认为，看到这么多故事，顺便说一句，我每一个都是从你父母大概会告诉你不要去的领域中挑选的。
I think seeing this many stories, and they're all by the way, I chose every one of them from a field that your parents would probably tell you not to go into.
我故意跳过了投资银行家。
I intentionally skipped investment bankers
医生。
Doctors.
是的，所有那些大家都知道的事情是
Yeah, all the stuff that everyone knows is
这是一种线性进步。
It's linear progression.
对。
Yes.
我这里没有这些，正是因为我想帮助人们克服恐惧，给予他们动力和方法去实现。
I have none of those in there for this reason, because I wanted to help people get past the fear by giving them the motivation and the method to do it.
我希望它能奏效。
I hope it works.
我也是。
Me too.
你确实说得对，用框架和理由去强行改变人们的观点是行不通的。
Well, you're certainly right about changing people's opinions with is beating them over the head with frameworks and justifications.
这根本就无法让人记住。
It just it straight up does not stick.
是的。
Yeah.
简洁的座右铭、名言之类的东西确实是一种不错的压缩算法，没错。
Pithy mantras and quotes and stuff can do they they are a nice compression algorithm Yep.
我觉得对于更大的事情来说。
I think for bigger things.
但事实上，你所追求优化的是什么，我很想知道你是否同意我的看法。
But, really, what you're optimizing for, and this I'd be interested to know if you if you agree with me on this.
我觉得你追求的是易记性。
I think you're optimizing for memorability.
对。
Yes.
我只是觉得，不管某句话写得多么精彩、富有想象力或富有洞察力，人类大脑的接收通道并不是一样的。
And I'm just I just don't think that regardless of how well written, whimsical, insightful something is, it doesn't the the human brain, the keyhole isn't the same.
它并不容易记住这些东西。
It doesn't retain things quite as easily.
格言之类的东西很不错。
The aphorism and stuff is nice.
这就像是歌曲的旋律一样。
That's kind of like, you know, the tune from a song.
它是你能记住的那首歌的主旋律。
It's the lead melody from a song that you can hold on to.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你给人讲一个故事，你怎么可能忘记呢？
But if you give somebody a story, how how are you how are you gonna forget that?
很多年前，我不记得是从什么时候开始的。
Years ago, and I don't know when it started.
说起来挺有趣的。
Actually, it's funny.
我刚说我不记得是从什么时候开始的，然后脑子里突然冒出一个想法。
I just said I don't know where it started, and then something popped in my brain.
我爱上了这些长篇非虚构文章。
I fell in love with these long form nonfiction articles.
有一个叫 Long Reads 的网站，上面收录了最佳作品，大多是《大西洋》杂志之类的内容。
There's a website called Long Reads that has best of, and it's a lot of Atlantic stuff, that kind of thing.
我脑海中浮现出来的是一篇《纽约杂志》的文章。
The thing that popped in my head was there was a New York Magazine article.
Suge Knight、Snoop，还有我觉得是 Biggie，登上了 1993 或 1994 年《纽约时报杂志》的封面，那篇文章有二十页。
Suge Knight and Snoop, and I think Biggie were on the cover of New York Time Magazine when I was it was in '93 or '94, and it was 20 pages.
那可能是让我开始迷上这种文章的第一篇。
That may have been the first one that got me into this.
但这让我读到了一本叫《新新闻主义》的书，还有一本叫《新新新闻主义》的书，讲的是那些离开报社跑线记者岗位、转而从事长篇新闻报道的作家们，以及他们如何让故事鲜活起来。
But that led me to a book called The New Journalism, and there's another one called The New New Journalism about these writers that kinda left the being beat writers on newspapers and started doing this longer form journalism and how it brought stories to life.
我觉得特鲁曼·卡波特在那本书里被重点提及。
I think Truman Capote's highlighted in that.
汤姆·沃尔夫编纂了第一本这样的书。
Tom Wolfe put together the first one.
然后第二本收录了克拉考尔和刘易斯，以及所有现代作家的作品。
And then the second one has Krakauer and Lewis and, like, all the modern
嗯，现在我们看到这种模式已经转向了Substack平台。
Well, now we've seen we've seen this pivot into Substack.
对吧？
Right?
那些以前是资深记者的人，现在完全在Substack上建立了自己的职业生涯。
That that people that were previously hardcore journalists have made their entire careers on Substack.
然后，如果你是像巴里·韦斯这样的人，经历了这种类似双U型转弯的过程，并多次自我反思调整，最终就会执掌CBS。
And then if you're somebody like Barry Weiss, you've done this sort of double u-turn thing and loop back on yourself enough, you end up in charge of CBS.
如果你是马特·泰比，最终就会负责推特文件之类的事情。
You're Matt Taibi, and you end up in charge of the Twitter files or whatever.
我是巴里的超级粉丝。
I'm a huge Barry fan.
所以
So
跟我谈谈在三十多岁或四十多岁重新开始的风险。
talk to me about the risk of starting over in your thirties or forties.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，问题不只是我该做什么，而是我本该早就把生活安排妥当了。
You know, the idea of not just what am I gonna do, but I, you know, I should have had my life together by now.
你真的在告诉我，我37岁还要从头再来？
Is it really you're telling me I'm gonna start again at 37?
我要重新从底层做起，而之前却已经投入了这么多沉没成本。
I'm gonna be at the bottom of the pile, and I've got all this sunk cost fallacy from before.
别人会怎么看待我？
What are people gonna think of me?
在三十多岁和四十多岁重新开始，真正的风险是什么？
What what's the real risk of starting again in thirties and forties?
嗯，我想鼓励你做的一件事是，我读过一本书，叫《防鲨》，作者是哈维·麦凯，那是在我上商学院的时候。
Well, one I mean, one thing I would encourage you to do, there was a there was a this book I read when I was really in, I think back in business school called Shark Proof by Harvey McKay.
他以销售类书籍闻名，但他写过一本关于职业发展的书。
He wrote he's known for his sales book, but he wrote a book about careers.
他说要保留你的梦想工作。
And he said to keep your dream job.
这本书比较旧，他说要把内容放在一个马尼拉文件夹里，但你现在可以用谷歌文档之类的方式记录下来，只是不断积累笔记。
This was an older book, so he said keep it in a Manila folder and a file, but you could create it in a Google Doc or something that where you're just keeping notes.
比如，如果有一天我真的做了，你知道的，你学到的一切、你接触过的人，我觉得你可以不断往里面添加内容，这样它就会变得越来越真实。
Like, well, if I do it one day, you know, and everything you learn, people you might talk to, I think you just pile more and more stuff in there and it'll start to feel more real.
你可以在真正跳槽之前就开始这个过程。
Like you can begin the process before you make the leap.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
接下来我要说的第二件事是，一共三点。
And then the second thing I'm gonna say three things.
第二点我想说的是，如果你在空闲时间里对某件事充满好奇，这其实是一个非常有趣的信号。
The second thing I would say is if you have some curiosity that's occupying your downtime, that's a really interesting tell.
你知道吗，当我还是工程师的时候，我拿到了计算机工程学位，当时在休斯顿的Compact Computers工作，那是一家当年非常热门的公司。
You know, when I was an engineer, I I got a computer engineering degree and I was working at Compact Computers in Houston that was a big hot company back in the day.
每天晚上回家后，我开始学习股票知识，并且开始买卖股票。
And I was going home at night and I had started I learned about stocks and I was trading stocks.
你知道，我读过《华尔街一隅》这本书。
You know, I'd read one up on Wall Street.
我有一本，记不清叫什么名字了，就是那种每页介绍一只股票的书。
I had this, I forget what it called, this book, you just get this book with all these one pagers on every stock.
那就是我空闲时间在做的事情。
That's what I was doing in my spare time.
所以，如果你在空闲时间做类似的事情，那说明它在召唤你。
So if you're doing something like that in your spare time, it's calling you.
第三点，书中其实有一章标题就叫《永远不晚》。
And then the third thing, there's a chapter in the book actually titled Never Too Late.
我们列出了大约20位在40岁之后转型的人，并深入分析了其中四位。
And we list about 20 people that did post 40 pivots and we go deep on four of them.
我最喜欢的是来自本地奥斯汀的伯特·饮料公司。
My favorite being local Austinite Burt Beverage.
伯特的绰号是蒂托，这就能告诉你他是怎样的人。
Bert's nickname is Tito, so that'll tell you who he is.
他本科主修地震学，曾在石油和天然气行业工作了几年，后来去了南美洲，在那里经历了几次让他心生畏惧的事情。
But seismology degree undergrad, worked in oil and gas for several years, ended up down in South America where he got frightened by a few experiences.
于是，他因为恐惧和行业周期的起伏而放弃了这份工作，转行做了抵押贷款经纪人。
So he hung that up out of fear and the boom bust cycle, became a mortgage broker.
他其实并不太喜欢这份工作，也不确定自己是否把身份认同与抵押贷款经纪人挂钩。
Didn't really love it, you know, and not sure he equated his identity to being a mortgage broker.
有一天晚上，这正是我如此热爱自助书籍和理念的原因之一。
And one night, this is such a like, it's part of why I love, like, self help books and ideas so much.
他正在观看一个PBS特别节目，节目中说：拿一张纸，画一条竖线，左边写下你热爱的事情，右边写下你擅长的事情，看看能否找到一条贯穿其中的线索。
He's watching a PBS special that says, take out a sheet of paper, draw a line down it, put the stuff you love to do on the left side and the stuff you're good at on the right, and see if you can find a through line.
他看着这张纸，意识到自己想创办一家烈酒公司。
And he's looking at this sheet of paper and realizes he wants to start a spirit company.
他在右边写了化学相关的东西。
He's got like chemistry on the right.
左边则是关于在酒吧消遣。
It's like hanging out at bars on the left.
而他当时对创办烈酒公司一窍不通。
And he didn't know Jack's shit about launching a spirit company.
结果发现，德克萨斯州在当时可能是最糟糕的地方，那里没有一个人拥有烈酒公司的执照。
And it turns out Texas is probably the worst place you'd ever at the time, there was no one that had a license for a spirit company in Texas.
但当然，Tito's 现在是北美最畅销的烈酒品牌。
But of course, Tito's is now the most best selling spirit in North America.
他个人拥有该公司 100% 的股份。
He owns a 100% of it himself.
不会吧。
No way.
整个事情都是自筹资金的？
The whole thing's bootstrapped?
是的。
Yes.
信用卡。
Credit card.
对。
Yeah.
19张信用卡。
19 credit card.
去他的。
Oh, fuck it.
但这是一个很棒的故事。
But it's such a great story.
这真是个特别棒的故事。
Like it's just such a great story.
现在他进入了人生的阶段，开始回馈社会，创办基金会。
And now he's at the phase in his life where he's giving back and launching foundations.
这正是我想说的重点。
This is my point.
你看，我在约翰·霍普金斯大学有个年轻人举手说，我不想追逐我的热情。
See, I had a young person at John Hopkins raise their hand and say, but I don't wanna chase my passion.
我想以目标为导向。
I wanna be purpose driven.
我当时心想，书中所有的成功案例，这些人都影响了远超他们想象的更多人。
And I thought to myself, every profile in the book, these people are touching more lives than they could have ever imagined.
我不想追逐我的热情。
I don't want to chase my passion.
我想以目标为导向。
I want to be purpose driven.
我认为这是新潮流的一部分，只是为了让自己感觉良好。
I think it's part of a new movement to just, like, feel good about yourself.
我的人生主要目标就是帮助别人。
Like, I'm a my my main goal in life is to help other people.
服务。
Serve.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
嗯，其实不是这样的。
Well, it's like, no.
表面上看这很高尚，但当然也有一些情况，比如这个人消耗很快，还要养家。
It's no it's noble on the surface, and there's certainly some things you know, in the same way, this person has high burn rate, family to support.
你并没有同样的条件。
You you don't have the luxury in quite the same way.
这个人，有些工作就是真的很糟糕。
This person there are some jobs that just suck.
是的。
Yeah.
有些工作你是在为国家服务，或者你知道，我肯定很多人喜欢打扫街道，但我猜有些人做这份工作更多是出于一种责任感。
There are some jobs you're serving your country or you're you're you know, I'm sure lots of people love street cleaning, but I would imagine that some people do it more out of a sense of Yep.
而不是出于热情。
Service than they do out of a sense of passion.
我的观点只是，那些能够从最底层爬到顶层、并且以正确方式做到的人，确实影响了成百上千人的生活。
My only point was these people that are able to climb from the bottom rung to the top and do it in the right way Mhmm.
最终会触动成百上千人的生活。
End up touching hundreds and hundreds of lives.
他们以一种更无缝的方式在服务，而且这种服务还被放大了。
They're serving in a a a much more seamless way that's leveraged as well.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，
It's I mean,
在这方面，我最喜欢的一个例子是很多年前，因为我参与了OpenTable，我认识了丹尼·迈耶，他是纽约著名的餐饮企业家，也是Shake Shack的创始人。
my one of my favorite on that front is many years ago because I was involved with Open Table, I met Danny Meyer and who's the famous restaurateur in New York that also built Shake Shack.
他写了一本很棒的书，叫《设桌》，如果人们还没读过的话。
He has a great book, Setting the Table, if people haven't read it.
但如果你跟餐饮行业的人交谈，哪怕他们只在丹尼·迈耶的餐厅工作过一年，那经历对他们来说都意义非凡。
But if you talk to people in the restaurant industry and they worked even for a year at a Danny Meyer restaurant, it's like meaningful to them.
就像，这会写在他们的简历上。
Like, it's on their resume.
他们总是会提到这件事。
They talk about it all the time.
就像对于每一个经历过的人，丹尼·迈耶几乎成了一种信仰。
Like, there's almost this church of Danny Meyer, like, for everyone that rolled through it.
这一定感觉非常棒。
That's gotta be That's gotta just feel amazing.
他的举止、文化或理念有什么特别之处？
What is it about his demeanor or culture or ethos?
这本书谈到了他对服务的一种低调而深刻的见解。
The book talks about this kind of understated sensibility to, his book, to hospitality.
比如，努力揣摩每位顾客的需求，真正理解他们想要实现的目标，并尽可能帮助他们达成。
Like just trying to read the room on each and every customer and really understand what they're trying to optimize and to help them do that as much as possible.
但他的经历所涵盖的远不止这些。
But his journey is about more than that.
这就是他这本书的主题。
That's what his book's about.
他的旅程在于极度好奇和不断学习。
His journey is about being hyper curious and an excessive learner.
就像在每一个阶段，包括今天，他依然在这样做。
Like every single step along the way, including today, he's still doing it.
明白吗？
Know?
我上次和他聊天时，他刚从欧洲回来。
Last time I talked to him, he just got back from Europe.
他带着所有厨师一起游历欧洲，做笔记、学习，持续不断地学习。
He'd taken all his chefs on a tour of Europe together, jotting notes, learning, like just constant learning.
这太酷了。
That's so cool.
我认为这也是我书中提到的第二个原则：持续学习，但它与第一个原则紧密相关。
Which I think is is it's also that's the second principle in my book is continuous learning, but it ties in with the first one.
判断你是否找到了热情的最佳标准是，学习的感觉是否像免费的一样？
The best test as to whether you found your passion is does the learning feel like free?
也就是说，你是否会宁愿做它而不愿看电视节目？
Like, would you do it instead of watching a TV show?
它是不是一种你如此享受的事情，以至于持续学习就是你在享受生活？
Like, is it is it something you enjoy so much that continuous learning is just you enjoying life.
你知道吗？
You know?
如果你找到了这种感觉，你就找到了，你真的找到了。
And if you find that, you you found you found it.
你找到了你的热情。
You found your passion.
顺便说一下，我多年来一直在使用Eight Sleep，我真的无法想象没有它的生活。
A quick aside, I've been using Eight Sleep for years, and I genuinely can't imagine life without it.
拥有一张能主动调节床两侧温度的床垫，简直是改变游戏规则的体验。
Having a mattress that actively cools and heats each side of the bed is a total game changer.
而最新款的Pod Five则将体验提升到了新高度。
And the newest model, the Pod five, takes things to the next level.
它现在配备了一款温控被子，可与智能床垫罩协同工作，实现全身气候调控，整夜从各个角度维持你理想的温度。
It now includes a temperature regulating duvet that works with the smart mattress cover to deliver full body climate control, maintaining your ideal temperature from every angle all night long.
新的底座还内置了扬声器，你可以听着环境音、雨声，或者安德鲁·休伯曼博士的音频入睡——任何能帮你放松的东西都行。
The new base also includes a built in speaker, so you can fall asleep to ambient sound rainfall or Dr Andrew Huberman, whatever helps you switch off.
通过升级的生物传感器，它现在能每晚进行健康检测，识别呼吸中断、心律异常或HRV的突然变化。
And with upgraded biometric sensors, it now runs nightly health checks, identifying disrupted breathing, abnormal heartbeats, or sudden changes in your HRV.
它现在在降温、升温、抬升和监测睡眠方面都比以往更出色，这也是为什么Eight Sleep已被临床证明能让你每晚多获得一小时优质睡眠。
It now cools, heats, elevates, and monitors your sleep better than ever, which is why Eight Sleep has been clinically proven to give you up to one hour more of quality sleep every night.
如果你还在犹豫，他们提供三十天的睡眠试用。
And if you're still on the fence, they have a thirty day sleep trial.
所以你可以购买并试用二十九晚。
So you can buy it and sleep on it for twenty nine nights.
如果你不喜欢，他们会全额退款，而且支持国际配送。
And if you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back, plus they ship internationally.
现在，通过访问下方描述中的链接，前往 8sleep.com/modernwisdom 并在结账时使用代码 Modern wisdom，您最多可享受 350 美元的折扣。
Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod five by going to the link in the description below by heading to 8sleep.com/modernwisdom and using the code Modern wisdom at checkout.
那就是 eightsleep.com/modernwisdom，并在结账时输入 modernwisdom。
That's eightsleep.com/modernwisdomandmodernwisdom at checkout.
乔·哈德森有句话说：享受就是效率。
Joe Hudson's got this line, enjoyment is efficiency, he says.
我觉得
And I I think
我喜欢。
I liked it.
我觉得这真的非常正确。
I think it's really, really true.
是的。
Yeah.
人们它有点儿，嗯。
That people It kinda yeah.
人们对于自律、动机和痴迷之间有一种关系。
People have this relationship between discipline, motivation, and obsession.
自律始终存在，但过程中有很多阻力。
Discipline's always there, but it there's a lot of friction.
动机能稍微减少一些阻力，但它更难把握。
Motivation, the friction gets removed a little bit, but it it it's it's sort of harder to to grab a hold of.
你并不清楚它从何而来。
You don't really know where it comes from.
也许是一份摇滚歌单，也许是一点恰到好处的咖啡因，或者其他什么。
Maybe it's a rock playlist or maybe it's the right amount of caffeine or something.
而痴迷则是将阻力反转了，你不再需要强行克服阻力。
And obsession is friction inverted as opposed to you having to push through resistance.
反而是阻力在把你拉向它。
The resistance pulls you toward it.
说得太对了。
That's exactly right.
而问题在于，我认为，或者痴迷之所以困难的原因是，显而易见的是，如果它指向了不积极的方向，你就会沉迷于政治、色情、有毒的前任之类的东西。
And the problem, I think, or the reason that obsession is difficult is that, obviously, if it's pointed in a nonpositive direction, that's how you become obsessed with politics or porn or your toxic ex or something.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果它指向了正确的方向，从外部看，那是一种超人的自律，而从内部感受却几乎像是你并没有主动选择它。
But if it's pointed in the right direction, what from the outside looks like a superhuman amount of discipline, from the inside feels almost like you haven't chosen it.
你知道，我并不是在刻意选择做这件事。
You you you you you know, I'm not I'm not choosing to do this thing.
在我们开始之前我提到过，过去十年里，我住过的每一个房子，都把其中一个卧室——包括我睡觉的那些房间——改成了播客录音室。
You know, I I mentioned before we got started, there's not been a single house I've lived in for a decade that I've not turned one of the bedrooms, including most of the ones that I slept in, into a podcast studio for a decade.
我英国的家也设有播客录音室。
My house back in The UK has got a podcast studio on it.
我现在住的这所房子，做播客已经八年了，做了上千集。
The one that I live in right now is still podcast eight years in, a thousand episodes.
每一套房子都有一个，我住过的每一个Airbnb，我一到那儿就会搞一个。
Every single house has had one every Airbnb that I've stayed in, I get there and I fuck.
我正在研究酒店
I'm researching hotels
为了
to
看看桌子的承重能力是否能支撑我的MacBook、支架和那个该死的三脚架，因为这就是我想做的。
see if the depth of the table can withstand my MacBook, the stand, and the and the fucking tripod because that's what I want to do.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是我想做的。
That's what I want to do.
我想进行这些对话。
I want to have these conversations.
所以，好吧，我整个生活都被它扭曲了。
So, okay, I I I my entire life gets warped around it.
我相信你对这种单一主导原则很熟悉。
I'm sure you'd be familiar with the single ordinating principle.
我认为贝索斯有一个，我认为马斯克也有一个。
I think Bezos has got one, and I think Musk's got one.
贝索斯总是问：这能改善客户体验吗？
And Bezos' was always, does this make the customer experience better?
是的。
Yeah.
因此，亚马逊的每一件事、每一个决定都通过了这种单一的狭缝。
So everything, every single decision in Amazon was threaded through this sort of single eye needle.
而马斯克问：这能让我们更接近火星吗？
And Musk says, does this get us closer to Mars?
这能让我们更接近吗？
Does this get us closer?
顺便说一句，这两个人都做了一件非常非凡的事：他们把一家创新公司发展到拥有数十万员工，并且保持了创新性。
And by the way, both of those people did something that is super extraordinary, which is they took an innovative company, grew it to hundreds of thousands of employees, and kept it innovative.
我知道的仅有的两个例子。
Two of the only examples I know of.
他们没有被沟通的不经济性拖垮，变成笨重的庞然大物。
They didn't get laden down with diseconomies of communication, lumbering fucking behemoth.
大型公司中总是出现的那种官僚主义，一定是你所描述的那种启发式方法在起作用——我刚刚听了埃隆在Cheeky Pine上的访谈，我想是这样。
The rockercy that always lands in big companies, and it must be some heuristic like the one you described that allows the in fact, I was just listening to Elon on Cheeky Pine, I think.
杜阿凯什。
The Dua Kesh.
是的。
Yeah.
这个话题被提到了。
This came up.
这个话题被提到了。
This came up.
每个领导者都想了解他是怎么做到的。
Like like every leader wants to know how he does it.
这就是为什么我觉得科利森会问他：你怎么领导？
That's why I think Collison was asking him, like, how do you lead?
他说：‘我深入其中。’
He goes, well, I'm down deep.
你不可能深入其中。
You can't be deep.
有二十万名员工。
There's 200,000 employees.
埃隆开玩笑说，是的，有二十万名员工。
And Elon jokes, yeah, there's 200,000 employees.
你必须有一些可以传播的简化启发式方法。
You have to have some simplifying heuristics that can spread through
否则忙于应付太多事情。
Or else spinning too many plates.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这相当令人印象深刻。
It's pretty impressive.
这太令人印象深刻了。
It's super impressive.
嗯。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
所以是职业转型的恐惧。
So career pivot fear.
是的。
Yes.
有人正处于职业生涯中。
Someone is in the career.
我并不是特别热情。
I'm not super fired up.
我以前是的，但现在感觉是我该成长的时候了。
I I used to be, and it just feels like it's time for me to grow.
那么，有哪些迹象表明是时候转变了？在鼓起勇气时，他们应该注意哪些事情来最大限度地提升自己的勇气，给自己一点外部动力呢？
Now what are the indicators that it's time to move, and what are the things that they should keep in mind to maximize their bravery, give them a little exogenous amount of So
所以，你知道吗？
so on the on the do you know?
我的意思是，我喜欢这个测试：你能想象自己三十年后还在做这份工作吗？
I mean, I love I love this test of is do you see yourself doing this thirty years from
现在？
now?
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为如果这个问题的答案是否定的，你就该行动起来。
Because if the answer to that is no, you should get busy.
是的。
Yeah.
《肖申克的救赎》里那句台词是什么？
What's the line from Shawshank?
就是，要么忙着活，要么忙着死。
Like, get busy living or get busy dying.
如果你知道这是真的，那现在就是你应该开始的时候。
Like, if you know that's true, like, well, now is when you should start.
我不是说要立刻跳槽，明天就辞职，但你要开始制定计划。
I'm not saying jump like, quit tomorrow, but, like, start building the plan.
而且还有很多你可以做的事情。
Like and then there's all kind of things you can do.
在《设计你的人生》这本书里，戴夫·伊万斯提到一个练习，他说：列出三到五个可能的未来方案，然后对它们进行对比分析。
In Designing Your Life, Dave Evans says has this exercise where he says create three to five scenarios and battle card them of what you might do next.
就像，你把它们填满。
Like, you know, fill them out.
人工智能真的能帮上忙。
AI can really help.
对吧？
Right?
你可以为每一条职业路径写一份二十页的报告。
Like, you could build a 20 pager on each one of these career paths.
我可能会喜欢什么？
What might I like?
我可能会不喜欢什么？
What might I not like?
这个职业中人们喜欢的三件事是什么？
What are the three things people love in this career?
你能对它进行调整的三件事是什么？
What are three things you can steer it at all.
对吧？
Right?
你可以向那些领域的人请教。
You can ask people in those fields.
你可以去找到他们。
You can go find them.
所以你可以模拟体验每一个这样的职业。
So you could you could role play being in each of these.
书中有一个他从播客主持人本·吉尔伯特那里借鉴来的经验法则，说的是他在每份工作时都兼做副业。
There's a there's a heuristic in the book that I borrowed from Ben Gilbert and acquired, a podcaster, where he had side hustles at all his jobs.
所以每换一份工作，他都会问雇主：如果我利用自己的业余时间，能不能也做另一件事？
So at each job he went to, he would ask the employer, if I do it on my own time, can I do this other thing also?
这其实有一个非常棒的地方。
And what's there's something really great about that.
第一，在他的每个案例中，副业最终都让他取得了相当了不起的成就。
One, in each of his cases, he ended up doing something pretty remarkable in the side hustle.
在微软，他创建了Microsoft Garage，成为微软与创业者保持联系的一种方式。
At Microsoft, he created Microsoft Garage, which became this way for Microsoft to stay relevant with founders.
他认识了所有这些创业者。
And he met all these founders.
这些额外的收获都源于此。
Like, all this kinda extra goodies came from that.
但我觉得这一切都让你学得更多。
But I think it all like, so you learn more.
你可能会有两次机会，而不是一次。
You learn maybe two you get two shots on goal instead of one.
我认为雇主会觉得你积极主动，这对你有利。
And I think the employer makes you look proactive, so it reflects positively on you.
当他加入Madrona VC时，他问能否创办一个播客，看看这带来了什么结果。
When he ended up at at Madrona VC, asked him if he could start a podcast and look where that led.
我刚和他们两人共进晚餐，他们当时在奥斯汀。
And I just had dinner with the both of them, and they were in Austin.
而且，他们真的很开心。
And man, they're happy.
我的天，我得告诉你，他们真的是特别快乐的人。
Like, I gotta tell you, like, they are really happy people.
所以，就像你和你的痴迷一样，他们也是通过这种方式逐渐投入其中的。
So similar to to you and and your obsession, and and they fell into it through that through getting there through that way.
所以我认为这些是你能用来尝试的一些方法。
So I think those are some things you can do to to test.
然后看看，你空闲时间都在做些什么？
And then look, what are you doing in your spare time?
比如，那里有什么线索吗？
Like, are there any signals there?
是的。
Mhmm.
这些都是非常好的方法。
Those are all great ways.
如果你不知道自己要去哪里，就不要辞职。
I wouldn't quit if you don't know where you're going.
这毫无意义。
That doesn't make any sense.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
有个很好的建议是想想你在淋浴时在想什么。
It it's such a good shout to say, sort of, what are you thinking about in the shower?
没错。
Yes.
你空闲时间都在做什么？
What are you doing in your spare time?
我老是在看pickleball的训练视频。
I keep on fucking watching pickleball drills.
我只是不断想着壁球，我对这项运动非常感兴趣，也喜欢和朋友们一起打。
I just keep on thinking about pickleball, and I I'm really interested in the sport, and I'm interested in how it's growing, and I love playing it with my friends.
但即使我不打的时候，也总是不停地想它。
But even when I'm not playing it, I'm always thinking about it a lot.
但让我让我
But let let me let
我可能那里有些情况正在发生。
me Maybe there's a, something going on there.
让我分享一个我刚发现的有趣故事，因为我用了一些黑客技巧来推广这本书，这让我结识了这位先生。
Let me share this fun story I just stumbled on because I'm using some hacker techniques to promote the book and that led me to talk to this gentleman.
当我联系他时，他说：‘哦，把书发给我吧。’
And when I pinged him, he said, oh, send me the book.
他说：‘我很久以前就看过那个视频，它改变了我的人生。’
He goes, I saw the video a long time ago and it changed my life.
我说：‘那你给我讲讲这个故事吧。’
And I said, well, tell me that story.
他是一名房地产律师，热爱足球，尤其喜欢足球的进攻战术和战术图示。
And he was a real estate lawyer and he loved football and he loved offensive plays and offensive diagrams in football.
我喜欢这个故事，因为它印证了我的观点：最精彩的故事往往来自父母劝你千万别去从事的职业。
I love this story because it fits with my thesis that the best stories are in jobs your parents would tell you to never go do.
他创建了一个网站，帮助人们管理和开发足球战术。
He launches a website to help people manage and develop football plays.
接着他开发了软件，还开始做起了播客。
And then he builds software, and then he starts a podcast.
他现在拥有90万粉丝，而这正是他每天全职在做的事情。
He has 900,000 followers, and this is what he does all day now.
他与业内顶尖人才讨论进攻型足球战术。
He talks about offensive football plays with the best and the brightest in the field.
他在整个行业内都享有盛名。
He's known throughout the industry.
多棒的一个故事啊。
What a great story.
我的意思是，怎么
Like, how
这太棒了。
awesome is that?
这太聪明了。
That's brilliant.
真是太好了。
It's so great.
我的意思是，我觉得人们没有意识到，在很多领域其实都有职业机会。
Like like, I think people don't realize that you can actually there there are career in a lot of places.
很多人想进入好莱坞或音乐行业，却认为自己没天赋就做不到。
A lot of people want to be in Hollywood or music, and they think they can't do it because they're not talented.
但每个在台前的艺术家背后，都有上百个支持性岗位，还有很多工作可做。
But there's a 100 support jobs for every artist that's out there, and there's tons of work to go do.
你知道吧？
You know?
如果你真的喜欢沉浸在这些东西中，那就有很多机会。
If you really love being around that stuff, there's tons of opportunity.
尤其是，你可以在一份你讨厌的工作中失败。
Well, especially given that you can fail at a job that you hate.
你可以在一个你不想从事的行业中表现不佳。
You can you can underperform in an industry that you don't want to be in.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，有可能在一份你热爱的工作中表现不错，这要好得多。
So the prospect of potentially doing okay at one that you love is infinitely better.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
这又回到了生活是一场用进废退的命题。
That goes back to life is a use it or lose it proposition.
去试试看吧。
Like, give it a go.
关于在这件事上失败，另一点要知道的是，人类在心理学研究中被证明非常擅长原谅自己。
And then the other thing to know about failing in that is humans are The research in psychology says humans are really good at forgiving themselves.
失败了你也不会永远纠结于它。
The failure's not gonna you're not gonna ruminate on it forever.
尤其是如果你告诉自己：我为这份勇气感到骄傲，没有犹豫。
Especially if you tell yourself, well, I'm proud of the bravery to make No the doubt.
心理学中有没有证据表明，人类普遍更倾向于做出决定？
Isn't there some evidence from psychology that humans prefer just making decisions generally?
如果你做出了决定，往往会更快乐。
That if you make a decision, you tend to be happier.
比如说，这是一个稍微没那么重大的决定：在两个城市之间选择，或者决定是否离开你现在所住的城市。
Someone's let's say it's a maybe a slightly less momentous decision between one city and another, or the the city that you're in now are moving.
平均而言，搬家的人会更快乐。
On average, people that move are happier.
我认为这部分原因在于，生活就是如此，新奇和变化真的很有趣。
And I think part of that is just, well, life is like, novelty and variety are pretty fun.
它不一样而且
It's different and
毫无疑问。
No doubt.
令人兴奋。
Exciting.
即使客观上稍微差一点，主观上却是全新的。
And even if it's objectively a little worse, subjectively, it's all new.
是的。
Yes.
我喜欢它。
I liked it.
我喜欢它。
I liked it.
我刚刚也有过类似的人生经历。
I just had a similar life experience.
我在湾区生活了二十五年，一直住在同一种社区里。
I spent twenty five years in the Bay Area living in one type of community.
当我搬到奥斯汀时，我搬到了市中心的一栋高层建筑，完全不同的环境，这让我感到振奋。
And when I moved to Austin, I moved downtown in a high rise, completely different repot, and it's invigorating.
这太棒了。
Like, it's awesome.
新的咖啡店，新的工作地点，接电话，晨间散步。
New place for coffee, new place to work, take your calls, your morning walk.
所有这些都不同了。
All that's different.
这很棒。
That's great.
我同意这种观点。
I agree with that sentiment.
所以你辞掉了在康柏的那份成功的工作，是吧。
So you quit a successful job at Compaq Yep.
重新开始。
To start again.
是的。
Yep.
人们怎么知道自己是遇到了瓶颈，还是只是有点无聊呢？
How do people know when they're plateauing versus they're just a bit bored or something?
对。
Yeah.
有几个人问过我这个问题。
A few people have asked me this question.
再说一次，我认为三十年后的人生推演能帮你摆脱这种困惑，因为它问的是另一个问题。
Once again, I think the thirty year forward exercise gets you away from that because it's asking a different question.
我非常重视的一点是，书中专门有一章讲这个：建立同龄人之间的关系。
One thing I'm really big on is and there's different chapter dedicated to this, developing peer relationships.
我们可以深入探讨为什么我认为这能带来巨大的突破，但拥有一个同行群体的好处之一是，尤其是当他们不在你所在的公司时——这些是和你处于相同职业路径上、但可能关系较远的人。
And we can go into why I think that's such a huge unlock, but one of the benefits of having a group of peers, especially if they're outside your organization, so these are people on the same career path you're on, but are maybe a a bit distant.
他们在不同的公司，或者类似的情况。
They're at a different company or whatever.
如果你有一个真正值得信赖、彼此支持的这样的社群，他们就能帮助你回答你刚才提出的问题。
And if you have a community like that that you really trust and support one another, they can help you with that question you just asked.
比如，我是不是失败了，永远都不会成功，因为我没有这方面的天赋？
Like, am I failing and I'm never gonna succeed because I don't have the right talent for it?
我是不是碰上了一个糟糕的老板？
Do I maybe have a shitty boss?
他们的经历会不会不一样？
Is their experience different?
你可以向这样一群朋友提出这些问题，他们是非常好的倾诉对象。
Like like, you can it's a great group of people to ask those questions of.
这几乎就像对自己进行了一次小规模的对照实验。
It's almost like being able to run a little split test of yourself.
是的。
Yes.
在你的经历中，有哪些是不同的，其中有多少是这个职位根本性的要求。
What are the things that are different in your experience, and how much of those are fundamental to The role.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
又有多少是暂时的，我可以只是
And how much of that is transient that I could just
当然。
Absolutely.
当然。
Absolutely.
巧妙地克服的。
Finesse my way out of.
还有十个其他理由说明你应该组建这个群体，但就你刚才描述的这个问题而言，这个群体确实很有帮助。
There's 10 other reasons why you should build that group, but that's it it's good at helping with that problem that you just described.
你如何有意识地提升自己的朋友圈，同时又不显得功利？
How do you deliberately upgrade your peer group without it being transactional?
你如何结交志同道合的朋友和同行，又不让对方觉得你总是在打什么主意？
How can you make like minded friends and peers without them thinking that you're constantly just wanting something?
是的。
Yeah.
这个问题很难回答，因为我认为人们在建立这类朋友圈时表现糟糕的首要原因，是他们被教导要成为攀爬者，甚至被灌输要不择手段、压过他人。
It's a tough question because I think the number one reason people are bad at forming these peer groups is they've been taught to be a climber and they've been taught to almost been taught to be a bit sharp elbowed and to outgun the next person.
零和博弈。
Zero summy.
是的。
Yeah.
我们从许多有明确开始、结束和唯一赢家的有限游戏中借用了大量思维框架，但职业生涯根本不是这样的。
And and we borrow a lot of our mental frameworks from from finite games that have a beginning and an end and a single winner, And careers just aren't that way.
几乎任何行业，只要不是滑雪，都有很多赢家。
Almost any industry, if it's not downhill skiing, there's lots of winners.
你知道的。
You know?
有太多赢家了。
There's tons of winners.
播客就是一个很好的例子。
Podcasting is a great example of that.
奥斯汀就有大量赢家。
There's tons of winners in Austin.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，如果你能建立一个由志同道合且你信任的人组成的人际网络，一个很好的检验标准是：你是否愿意与他们分享你最好的想法？
And so if you can build a peer network of like minded people that you trust, the great test of do you trust, would you share your best ideas with them?
比如，你刚在工作中解锁了一个新方法，你会愿意跟他们分享吗？
Like that you've learned this new thing that you just unlocked in your job, would you share it with them?
实际上，我认为你应该这么做，但很多人不会。
You should actually, I believe, but a lot of people wouldn't.
一旦你达到了那个境界，那真是一个特别的地方。
And so once you get to that place, it's a really special place.
书里讲了一个关于克里斯·德尔孔特的故事，他是德克萨斯大学的体育总监。
There's a story in the book about Chris Del Conte, who's the athletic director here at the University of Texas.
当他刚进入体育管理领域时，是在发展办公室工作。
And when he broke into sports administration, he was in the development office.
他参加了一个会议，这是结识同行的好地方。
He went to a conference, and it's a great place to meet peers.
他参加了一个会议，结识了另外几位刚步入职业生涯的年轻人。
He went to a conference and met with a couple of other young men who were also at the beginning of their career.
他们交换了联系方式，建立了一个短信群组。
They exchanged numbers and started a text group.
随着时间推移，他们又陆续加入了更多人。
And over time, they added a few more people to that.
人数增加到了七人左右，七到八人。
Got up to like seven, seven or eight.
这八个人现在都成了体育总监，而且他们都从底层做起。
All eight of them are d one athletic directors now, and they all started on the bottom.
如果你跟踪他们的成长历程，会发现他们每次都在不断提升。
And if you follow them along that journey, they're learning elevated each time.
每年他们聚会时，每次发短信交流遇到的问题，都在互相分享、互相解释。
Each year they met, each time they texted the problems they were encountering, they were sharing, they're explaining.
后来发展到他们会带着妻子一起度周末，并邀请其他嘉宾参加。
It got to the point where they would do weekends away with their wives and invite in guests.
你说这叫外部学习，他们自己掏钱举办会议，邀请外部嘉宾来帮助他们学习，以便共同成长和成功。
You talk about external learning, who's holding many conferences on their own nickel and bringing in external guests to help educate them so that they could rise and thrive together.
这让我想到另一个更贴近现代年轻人的故事，MrBeast 在17岁时就做过这样的事。
It's just so I just like I get like there's another story that's perhaps more modern for the younger crowd, and MrBeast did this when he was 17.
他找到了另外三个人，他们都在尝试破解YouTube。
He found three other people that were trying to hack YouTube.
他们基本上是在摸索YouTube的运作规律，每天一起在Skype上通话十六个小时。
They were basically trying to figure out the game of YouTube and they were on a Skype call for sixteen hours a day together.
他说，如果当时房间里有第五个人，那个人也一定能赚到一百万美元。
And he says if there were a fifth person in that room, they would have made a million dollars also.
因为她们发现的东西实在太实用、太可预测了，根本没人知道这些。
Like, it was just because the stuff they were uncovering was so usable and just deterministic, just no one else knew it.
他用了一个我特别喜欢的说法。
And he used a phrase I love.
他说，你知道人们常提到的那本马尔科姆·格拉德威尔的书里说的那一万小时吗？
He said, you know how they talk about 10,000 referring to the Malcolm Gladwell book?
他说，我们加起来有四万小时，因为我们一直在彼此分享。
He says, we got forty thousand hours because we were we were sharing it all.
这并不是精确的计算，但确实很好地反映了当时的那种状态。
This is not the exact math, but it's a it's a it's a cool reflection of the moment.
你知道吧？
You know?
简单插一句，你可能听过像Rhonda Patrick博士这样的专家谈论欧米伽三脂肪酸的好处。
A quick aside, you've probably heard experts like doctor Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega threes.
它们能减少...喂？
They reduce hello?
欧米伽三？
Omega threes?
找到了。
There they are.
它们会降低大脑功能。
They reduce brain function.
不。
No.
它们不会。
They don't.
它们支持大脑功能。
They support brain function.
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