#225 - 埃里克·约根森 - 纳瓦尔·拉维康特的智慧

无论谁在聆听这段话，你都比你想象的更加独特且珍贵。每个人都是其基因、经历、视角与信仰的奇妙组合，独一无二且拥有能为他人带来价值的技能或洞见。关键在于学会如何提炼并恰当地呈现这些特质，观察人们的反应——甚至在面对现实阻碍之前，首先要相信你确实有值得贡献的东西。

Whoever is listening to this, you are more unique and valuable than you think you are and everyone is kind of an incredible combination of their genetics and their experience and their perspectives and their beliefs and everyone is unique and everyone has some sort of skill or insight that they can bring to other people. If you can learn it and package it the right way and just see what people respond to that that you wanna bring to them, that's probably even before the kind of logistical stumbling blocks is just the belief that there's something there for you to do and for you to add value.

埃里克，欢迎来到节目。

Eric, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请。自从听到你和乔治在这里的精彩对谈后，我就一直很期待这次机会，感觉肯定会很有趣，我绝对会喜欢的。

Thanks for having me. I've been excited about this ever since I listened to you and George Mac fucking around on here. I was like, this is gonna be a good time. I'm gonna like this.

没错。咱们这儿就是个纯爷们俱乐部对吧？今天是2020海军狂欢节，欢迎来到2020海军狂欢节，这气场简直霸气侧漏。

Yeah. It's, it's all a boys club up here in here, isn't it? So today is Naval Fest twenty twenty. Welcome to Naval Fest twenty twenty. This this big dick energy.

今天我们就沉浸在这种氛围里，看看接下来六十分钟能对着海军话题嗨到什么程度。

We're just marinating in it today, and we're gonna see how much we can jerk off over Naval over the next sixty minutes.

大概能折腾个几百页素材吧，再加上剪辑内容，咱们可有得聊了。

A couple 100 pages probably worth. And then and then edited material. So we got a lot to go on.

DVD花絮、付费点播、OnlyFans那种额外内容都算上。

DVD extras, pay per view, OnlyFans, like additional content.

DVD评论音轨、花絮片段、导演剪辑版，我们应有尽有。

DVD commentary, bonus scenes, director's cut. We got it all.

太棒了。那你为什么要写一本关于纳瓦尔的书？你为什么喜欢他，他有什么值得著书立说的特质？他是谁？

I love it. So why are you writing a book about Naval? Why did you like, what makes him worthy of a book? Who is he?

我关注纳瓦尔大概有十年了。他是我初入硅谷时接触到的第一位精神导师——虽然未曾谋面，但当年我只是个来自密歇根州的毛头小子，从未离开过家乡，试图闯入创业圈。有人建议我：去读所有冒险黑客的文章，追随纳瓦尔，照他说的做。他和保罗·格雷厄姆就像是硅谷的灯塔。

I've been following Naval for ten years now, maybe. He was the first person I kinda got introduced to in the valley, not personally, but when I was, you know, just a wet behind the ears kid from Michigan who had never left Michigan and was, like, trying to get into the startup world. Somebody's like, go read all adventure hacks. Follow Nivol, do everything he says. Him and Paul Graham were kind of like, those are the lighthouses of the valley.

就像有人指引你去聆听追随。所以我长期追随他的思想，从中获益良多。随着他这些年的思想演进，分享的内容越来越丰富，我的收获也越来越多。我发现自己越来越频繁地向不同人群推荐他的播客和推文，理由也越来越多。我意识到对于推特圈和播客世界之外的人来说，要吸收这些智慧并付诸实践确实很困难。

Like, go listen and follow. So that I've been kind of following for a long time and I learned a ton from him. And as he's kind of evolved over the years and started sharing more and more stuff, I've learned more and more. And I found myself recommending, you know, his podcast, his tweets and for to more and more people for more and more reasons. And I realized kinda how hard it is for people outside of, like, the Twitter verse and the podcast world to kind of pick up that and run with it and learn from it.

但他讲述的内容，我认为能在人生不同阶段给许多人带来改变。其中蕴含的巨大价值让我迫切想要打造一个便捷的入口，一个精炼的载体。眼看着这些高价值的智慧结晶在推特洪流中逐渐湮没，我心如刀割。我觉得必须把这些转化为更持久、更永恒的东西——而书籍无疑是最佳载体。

But the stuff that he talks about, is it can be so life changing for so many people at at many different stages, I think. And just so much value there that I really wanted, like, an easy on ramp and I wanted a a tight package. And I'm watching these, like, high value, you know, huge pieces of wisdom, just kinda slide into the, like, Twitter nothingness. And it broke my heart and I'm like, I I need to turn this into something more evergreen, something more permanent. And, you know, there's no better package than a book.

所有人都知道怎么对待一本书。它易于赠予，便于阅读，人们清楚如何与之互动。希望这本书能长久流传，保持其时代价值。

Everybody knows what to do with a book. Everybody, you know, it's easy to gift. It's easy to read through. People know kinda what to do with it and hopefully, it'll live on, you know, and and stay relevant for a really long time.

纳瓦尔有什么独特之处？

What's unique about Naval?

纳瓦尔，就像，九岁时作为一个贫穷的移民来到美国，我想是布鲁克林，几乎是从零开始，一步步打拼。你知道，他进入了一所好高中，这在他早年生活中是一个巨大的转折点。我的意思是，他无疑是个才华横溢的人。所以，他并非完全白手起家，他确实有些天赋。但他进了那所很棒的高中，进入达特茅斯学院，从科技行业的底层做起，学习计算机科学，后来经历了一系列的失误、冒险、公司、失败和诉讼，通过投资逐渐在科技界崭露头角，创立了AngelList。他在科技界广受关注，因为他在那里的建树以及对Twitter和Uber等公司的投资。现在他正处于人生的一个有趣阶段，就像很多人经历的那样，已经实现了年轻时渴望的所有成功，现在既在回馈他们如何取得这些成就的经验，也在转向哲学、家庭和遗产，思考如何回馈社会，更多地了解生活，而不是一味地追逐名利。

Naval, like, came to The US as a poor immigrant at nine years old, I think Brooklyn, and just kind of had to start from nothing and build his way up. You know, he he got into a good high school, which is which is a huge turning point for him early in his life. I mean, he's undeniably just a brilliant guy. So, you know, he he didn't scrap it together from nothing, know, he's definitely got some like horsepower. But got into this great high school, got into Dartmouth, started at the bottom in the tech world, you know, studied computer science and eventually kind of through a bunch of different missteps and adventures and companies and failures and lawsuits, and investments kind of found his way into breaking out in the tech world and starting AngelList and he's incredibly widely followed kind of in that tech world for what he's built there and the investments that he's made in Twitter and Uber and he's in this kind of interesting chapter of life that you see kind of a lot of people go through where they have achieved all of the successes that they hoped to achieve when they were younger and they're now kind of both giving back those lessons of how they achieved what they did and kind of turning to philosophy and family and legacy and just looking at how they can how they can give back and how they can learn a little bit more about you know, life instead of the rat race.

所以这是一个有趣的转折点，他从过去积累了丰富的财富知识，现在仍在工作和投资。但他在最近的当下学到了很多关于幸福的东西，并且正在实践，继续发展和分享这些心得。

And so it's kind of an interesting turning point where he knows a lot about wealth from his past and you know, he continues to work and invest. But he's learning a lot about happiness, in the in the very recent present and is practicing it currently and continuing to kind of develop that and share it.

我对纳瓦尔特别感兴趣的洞察，也是我被他吸引的原因，在于他的智慧是如此实用。最近瑞安·霍利迪来过这里，马西莫·皮柳奇也来过，我们讨论了很多关于斯多葛主义的内容，它就像是2020年学校里新来的热门女孩。但当我阅读时，有一部分我不喜欢它的抽象性。

The particular, interesting insight that I have about Navala, the reason I think I'm drawn to him, is the fact that his wisdom is so practical. There's part of me Ryan Holiday was recently on here. Massimo Piglucci has been on here. We've talked a lot about stoicism, and it's like the hot new girl in school for 2020. But there's part of me when I read it that doesn't like how abstract it is.

好吧，老兄。是的，美德、正直、克服障碍。我就像，好吧，我懂了。

Alright, man. Yeah. Virtue and integrity and overcome the obstacle. I'm like, okay. I get it.

但有一部分感觉太，像是资产阶级和艺术家的调调。你知道吗？别忘了，绝大多数斯多葛学派的人出身富贵。虽然有些人生为奴隶，最终处境或好或坏，但绝大多数来自富裕家庭。

But there's there's just a part of it that feels too, like, bourgeois and artsy. You know? Like, let's not forget that the vast majority of the Stoics came from wealth. Like, there was some there was some that was born as slaves and ended up in good situations, but or bad situations. But the vast majority of them came from wealth.

我认为即使两千五百年后，这一点仍然有所体现。而像纳瓦尔这样的人，他的智慧不仅设计得实用，而且是在现实中锻造出来的，这特别吸引我。而且我认为，我们大多数人，你知道，属于中产阶级、工人阶级或有志于改变现状的底层。考虑到这一点，你会对一个从零到英雄的人产生共鸣，而不是那些在某个巴洛克风格的豪宅里，由他们的父亲供养着，进行扶手椅哲学思考的人。你懂我的意思吗？

And I think that even two and half thousand years later, that still kind of reflects and shows on. Whereas someone whose wisdom has really, really been not just designed for practicality but forged in reality, like N'Val's is is something that, attracts me to it particularly. And I think as well, the vast majority of us are, you know, like middle class, working class, or aspiring underclass. And with that in mind, you feel a sense of affinity to someone who's got that, like, zero to hero journey, you know, as opposed to it just being someone armchair philosophizing this, like, baroque fucking mansion somewhere that their dad has. You know?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you get me?

是的。它非常实用，而且我确实发现，聆听那些通过现实考验、身为实践者、创立过公司、进行过投资的人讲述哲学更容易理解。对于斯多葛主义，我完全同意你的看法。就像，读起来很容易让人产生共鸣，觉得‘对，没错，我认同’。

Yeah. It's it is very practical and it is definitely I find it easier to listen to philosophies from somebody who has passed the tests of reality, who is an operator, who has founded companies, who has made investments. And stoicism, I totally agree with you. Like, it's it's easy to, like, kind of read it and be like, yeah, sure. I agree.

但通过现实考验时，很多时候它并不实用。比如，它几乎与建立亲密关系或友谊相矛盾。我真的很想听听人们谈论，当伴侣或孩子情绪低落时，他们如何以斯多葛主义的方式行动和应对。这些情境不同于山顶上的导师独自修行——独自在树下保持冷静很容易，但那不是我们的生活，也不是我认为我们想要的生活方式。

And then passing the test of reality, like, there's a lot of times where it is does is not practical. Like, it is almost incompatible with having, like, close intimate relationships or friendships. And and like, I really wanna hear people talk about like how they act how they react stoically when like their partner is upset or when their child is upset and things like that that are it's not like a guru on a mountain. Like, it's easy to be stoic and you're by yourself, like, under a tree. And that's just not how we live and not I I don't I think how we want to live.

因此，关键在于找到斯多葛主义作为经营哲学和商业实践之间的调节点，以及在与家人相处时需要共情、建立深厚关系和友谊时的行为方式。我认为这是值得深入探讨的，也是读完这本书后仍让我好奇的一点：如何在理想与现实之间找到平衡？

And so finding the kind of like where do you put the dial between stoicism as an operating philosophy and maybe a business practice and, you know, how you act with your family when you need to be empathetic and and build deep relationships and deep friendships. I I think that's something that's like really kind of interesting to dig into and a piece of curiosity that I'm left with even after this book is kind of like, where do you where do you go, to kind of find that balance between the ideal and the practical?

我认为这是个非常关键的观点。你可以写出百分百艺术化、抽象优美的文字，但读者仍需大量努力将其应用到生活中。再次强调，虽然这听起来像是对Naval的过度吹捧，但他之所以能引起共鸣，说出本应过于高深的内容，是因为他牺牲了约10%到20%的艺术性，换来了80%的即时实用性。这本书读起来介于斯多葛格言和宜家组装说明书风格的生活指南之间。

I think that's a a really important point. The fact that you can write something which is 100% artsy and sounds beautiful in these abstract terms, but there's a lot of work left to be done by the reader to then deploy that to their own lives. And I think that again, you know, this is just a full on jerk off around Naval, but I think the reason that he has managed to resonate with people saying things that really should be far too highbrow for the everyone to listen to, is that he sacrificed maybe sort of 10 to 20% of the artsiness for an additional 80% of practical, ability to apply almost immediately. No. It reads like it's somewhere in between stoic maxims and a how to put your life together guide if it was done, like, by an IKEA instruction manual.

没错。

Yeah.

对，深入那些原则。

Yeah. Get into the principles.

正是如此。你看，这本书分为财富和幸福两部分。有没有哪些内容是你本想加入但最终没有写的？

Precisely. So look. The book is split into two parts, wealth and happiness. Are there any sections that you could have added but you didn't?

哦，很多。是的。这本书最初的手稿比现在多出数百页，包含了关于区块链、教育、未来的思考，甚至还有一整章关于未来主义、投资和初创企业运营的内容。我专门写了一个章节讲述AngelList的故事——他作为早期创业者经历的磨难如何塑造了他的风投理念，进而催生了博客Venture Hacks，最终诞生了AngelList这个平台。

Oh, many. Yeah. The first manuscript of this, the thing was, like, hundreds more pages, and it included, you know, his thoughts on blockchain and education and the future. There was kind of this whole futurism section and investing and how to operate startups. I did one section that was just the story of AngelList, you know, how you know, the trials that he went through kind of as an early founder led to his views on venture capital, which led to you know, venture hacks, the blog, which led to AngelList, the platform.

这真是个不可思议的故事。所有删减内容都放在网站上了。虽然从书中删掉这些让我心碎，但转念一想：直接放网上不就好了？读完书的读者可以自行查阅这些延伸内容。

It's a really, really incredible story. All of that is on the website. So it like broke my heart to cut it from the book and I was like, duh. Just put it on the website. People who want it can after they read the book can go kinda get into that stuff.

早期读者们都偏爱其中一两章，但没人喜欢全部内容。尽管我个人很感兴趣，但也不想把Naval的所有言论编成一部百科全书。所以这些内容就作为网站的自助餐了。书的核心其实是财富与幸福两大主题——市面上相关书籍很多，但Naval的独特之处在于他站在两者的交叉点上，用非常务实的态度（正如你所说）剖析二者的权衡关系。

Early readers, everybody kind of loved one or two of those sections, but not all of them and I didn't wanna publish a giant textbook of everything Nivol had ever said even though it's interesting to me. So that's kind of self serve on the website. But the but the main two sections, of the book are are wealth and happiness. And I really think it's you know, there's a lot of books out there on wealth and there's a lot of books out there on happiness. And Nival is is maybe really interesting in the fact that he sits at the corner of those two and kind of very practically, to your point, like, looks at the trade offs between the two.

读这本书我才知道佛陀原是王子，坐拥巨额财富。正因如此，他才能抛下家业去林中冥想修行。Naval很现实地指出：幸福确实需要财富支撑。致富不会直接带来幸福，但能为你创造研习哲学、摆脱职场内卷的空间。

Something that I didn't know until reading this was that Buddha was a prince. Like, he was very wealthy. And so when he, you know, he was able to kind of just leave his family and go off in the woods and meditate and study and just kind of learn and become peaceful and practice this philosophy. And and so Naval is very practical about like, there's actually like a lot of ways in which happiness is dependent on wealth. Building wealth isn't gonna make you happy but it will certainly give you the space to study and explore philosophy and to kind of not spend your whole life with your head down in the rat race.

所以他的观点很明确：追求财富是通往幸福的合理途径。致富不需要以幸福为前提，但财富确实能解决金钱问题——这些问题真实存在。解决了它们，你才有余裕探索其他领域。就像斯多葛学派那样，我们推崇的哲学家要么极其富有，要么一无所有毫无牵挂。

So he's like, by all means, getting rich is a perfectly practical, reasonable goal on the way to becoming happy. Like, you don't have to be happy to be rich, but also it definitely helps. Like, your money solves your money problems and those are problems. So if you can solve that, it gives you time and it gives you space to kind of explore some of these other things. And that to your point about the Stoics, like many of the philosophers that we look to were either very, very wealthy or they had so little and had absolutely nothing and no responsibilities.

他们要么选择苦行僧式的生活断舍离，要么积累巨额财富来降低欲望阈值。关键是要在欲望与能力之间制造缓冲带，否则永远与幸福无缘。

And, you know, they had so little that they could choose to, you know, be basically become a monk, renounce everything, and find happiness. And so if you're only gonna go one of those two directions, like, you can go all the way to having nothing and wanting nothing and eliminate all your desires, or you can try to get really rich, store up a bunch of that goodwill, and give yourself the space to kind of lower your desires below your means. But but just know that, you know, you gotta build that gap in, or you're just always gonna be unhappy.

这就像节食时的状态。经历过假期前严格控卡的人都懂：当饥饿感如影随形，所有美好体验都蒙着一层阴影。经济拮据时也是如此——即便正在享受人生巅峰时刻，'下个月账单怎么办'的焦虑就像镀在快乐表面的锈斑。

It's like when you're on a diet. Anyone who's had to do a hard cut before a holiday knows if you're on locales, everything, every single experience in your life is flavored with the fact that you're still a bit hungry. And it's like the same as being skin. If you've not got enough money, if you don't know where the next paycheck or the next bills are gonna come from, you can be having the best time of your life. But there's this tarnish that's layered, this veneer that's sort of layered over the top of things that says, yeah, but but money.

是啊，但我不知道下一份薪水从哪儿来。富有未必让你快乐，但贫穷绝对能让你痛苦。第欧根尼，那个住在罐子里的犬儒主义者，可以说是极简主义运动的先驱，如今我们看到禁欲主义和极简主义在二十世纪重新流行。没错，第欧根尼就像是这一理念的祖师爷。

Yeah, but but I don't know where the next paycheck's coming from. And it's being rich might not make you happy, but being poor can make you miserable. And Diogenes, the cynic, who lived out of a a pot and was sort of the first of the minimalist movement, which we're now seeing a resurgence in, like, asceticism and minimalism, I guess, in the twentieth century 20 century. Yeah. Diogenes was, like, the the, grandfather of that.

但我不想成为第欧根尼，懂吗？我想要好东西。再说个大家耳熟能详的尼瓦尔主义——放弃物质欲望比实现它们困难得多。所以我宁愿说'我不需要法拉利'——前提是我上一辆车就是法拉利，而不是费力摆脱各种奇怪的物质依赖。

But I don't wanna be Diogenes, you know? Like, I wanna have nice things. I wanna and again, another nivolism which everyone will be familiar with, one of my favorites is it is far easier to achieve your, material desires than it is to renounce them. So I would much sooner say I don't need a Ferrari when my last car was a Ferrari than try and battle through all of the different bizarre attachments that I've got to work out. Yeah.

反正我本来就不想要这些，人很容易在这种事上自欺欺人。言归正传，财富。财富是如何创造的？

But I never wanted it in any case, and you get into so much sort of self deception there in any case. So okay. Wealth. How is wealth created?

书里用一系列公式拆解了财富创造的原理：收入=责任担当+专业知识+杠杆运用程度。而财富则由储蓄率和投资回报率决定收入转化而来。但尼瓦尔特别强调，真正的财富积累在于寻找'睡后收入'资产。

Yeah. Wealth is created there's a whole kind of set of formulas in the book that kind of break this down, almost, principle formulas. And so your income is determined by your accountability plus your specific knowledge plus the degree of leverage that you're using. And then your income is gonna determine your wealth based on your savings rate and your return on income. But Naval really prioritizes building wealth as, looking for assets that can earn money while you sleep.

无论是创建媒体、购买企业股权，还是开发软件、做播客、写博客或出书，关键要建立非线性输入输出的系统。就算你是时薪上万美元的高薪医生，单纯靠时间换钱永远有上限。必须运用劳动力杠杆、资本杠杆或产品杠杆，通过复利效应积累财富——这需要长期坚持才能见效。

So building media, buying equity in a business, you have to get sort of you know, whether you're building software, whether you're building a podcast or a blog or a book or whatever it is, do something that can work that is not a linear input and output. You know, if you're working even if you're a very high paid doctor, you're working an hour, you're getting paid even a thousand, $10,000 an hour. It's gonna be really, really tough to outwork the amount of time that you have. And so you have to start using tools of leverage. So labor, capital, or product in order to kind of build in that leverage and get that compounding going because it's gonna take you a long time and you're gonna need the compounding relationship with an a long period of time probably in order to actually get the space to build that wealth.

这个观点在《重访创业神话》里也有体现：如果你离开六周公司就垮掉，那根本不是事业，只是高杠杆的工作。对很多工薪阶层出身的人来说，'我拥有自己的生意'其实是认知误区——

That particular insight, which comes from the e myth revisited as well, that if you have any business where if you were to leave for more than six weeks and the whole thing was to fall apart, that's not a business. That's just a highly leveraged job. That insight to a lot of people, you know, especially if you've grown up working class. No. I own my own business.

或者换个说法？'我是自己的老板'。注意，'当自己的老板'和'拥有事业'是天壤之别。你刚才提到...

I'm or even what what's a, a synonym for that? I'm my own boss. Okay. I'm my own boss, and I own a business are two incredibly different things. You talked about Mhmm.

责任和一些术语，比如Navale提到的那些。能否为尚未深入研究的人解释一下这些概念？

Accountability and some of the terms that are very, like, Navale. Can you just break those down for people who haven't gone down the rabbit hole already?

好的。抱歉刚才讲得太快了。这本书其实就是在尝试解析这些术语。虽然有些词可能一带而过，但像'责任'这个概念，实际上浓缩了无数页的思想，'特定知识'也是如此。

Yeah. Sorry. I went through a lot kind of quickly there. And and the book is really an attempt to unpack a lot of those terms. And so, you know, it's easy to kinda blow through a few words, but really, like, accountability is a compression of pages and pages of ideas, same with specific knowledge.

或许该从'特定知识'开始解释。特定知识本质上是找到社会需求、世界愿意付费的事物与你独特能力及乐于交付的工作成果之间的契合点。比如你擅长谈论现代智慧、哲学家、斯多葛主义，善于从网络对话中提炼观点并分享——这就是你的特定知识。

Specific knowledge is probably the right place to start. So specific knowledge is kind of finding a fit between what society needs, what the world is willing to pay for, and what you are uniquely capable of and happy to deliver as a work product. Right? So you love talking about modern wisdom, philosophers, stoicism, talking with people on the internet and pulling out their lessons and sharing it with people. You're really good at it.

你对此充满热情，乐此不疲。这种内在驱动力能让你超越许多尝试同类工作却无法达到人岗高度匹配的竞争者——他们可能终其一生钻研的领域与个人特质并不完全契合。特定知识包含两个层面：其一是充分认知自我，明确自身天赋与真正志向，这点至关重要。

You're passionate about it. You love to do it. And that is gonna let you outwork and outpace and outperform a lot of other people that might try to do it but not be as not have it be in quite as good of alignment with who they are as a person and what they've spent their whole life studying and becoming. And so that specific knowledge is really, there's kind of two parts. And one is understanding yourself well enough to know what your talents are and what you really want to be doing and that is that is not to be overlooked.

自我认知其实非常困难。我们都在不断变化，对自我的理解也持续更新成长。因此有时周围人反而更能帮你认清自己的特定知识与技能。Naval提出的测试问题就包括：别人常向你求助什么？你从小自然而然在做哪些事？比如小学就爱传播消息的人，现在可能成了记者。

Like that is a hard thing to do. And it's something that we are all kind of, you know, we're always changing and our understanding of ourselves are always changing and growing. And so you know, relying on the people around you, they actually may be better at showing you kind of who you are and what your specific knowledge and skills are. One of the tests that questions that Naval asked is like, what are the things that other people ask you to do? You know, what what are things that people come to you for help with?

特定知识的另一关键，是发掘你能为社会提供的、当前社会尚无法自给自足的独特价值，或是你能以空前水准完成的事物。最好还能规模化运作——就像我们之前讨论的，不要追求即时投入产出比，而要打造可复制十次、百次乃至千次的成果，无论是通过媒体、代码、劳动力还是资本。

Or what are the things that you found yourself doing at a very young age? Like your your parents and those around you, like, you know, the things that you've been doing since you if you were a gossip, you know, in third grade and you know, run around tattling on people, like maybe you're a journalist now or something, you know. So that's one piece. The other piece of that specific knowledge is getting to understand what you can deliver to society that they are society is not yet able to get for itself, or that you might be able to do better than anyone has ever done it before. And hopefully, at scale.

回到最初的话题：我们追求的并非按小时计算的投入产出，而是能通过媒体、代码、劳动力或资本实现十倍、百倍乃至千倍复制的价值产出。

Back to what we were talking about. I'm like, you don't want inputs and outputs on an hourly basis. You wanna be able to do something that is going to be, you know, replicable 10 times or a 100 times or a thousand times, whether that's through media or code or, you know, labor or capital.

在现实世界中，这四种杠杆的具体例子有哪些？

What are some examples of those four types of leverage just in real world?

是的。资本可能是最容易入手的部分。因为如果你用10美元下注，花10美元买股票，判断正确时它会翻倍到20美元。但如果你用100万美元操作，它就会变成200万，这种回报差异就来自资本杠杆——本质上这是完全相同的决策。

Yeah. So capital, is is maybe the easiest place to start. Because if you place a bet for $10, you buy a stock with $10, and you're right, and it doubles, it goes to 20. But if you do it with a million and it goes to 2,000,000, and the rewards for that are the leverage comes from capital. It's this exact same decision.

但如果你通过资本杠杆放大决策效果，结果差异会非常巨大。当然你可以使用自有资本，这本身就有很大杠杆效应，但还有他人资本可以利用。为此你需要建立个人声誉，而这就需要你在公众场合承担责任。

But if you made the decision leveraged by capital, that is a huge outcome differential. And so you can use your own capital, certainly. Like, there's a lot of leverage that comes from that, but there is also capital from others. And for that, you need to be able to kind of build your reputation. And to do that, you're taking accountability in public.

所以你要公开为自己的决策负责，让行为可被观察，从而积累良好判断力的记录。这样别人才愿意以资本或劳动的形式借给你他们的杠杆。劳动是另一种杠杆形式，比如特斯拉有绝妙的汽车设计，但需要成百上千人按规格制造——每个参与其中的人都是这种杠杆效应的组成部分。

So you that accountability for your bets and making publicly kind of, observable things so that you can build that track record of having good judgment so that other people are willing to kind of lend you their leverage in the form of capital or in the form of labor. So labor is another piece where, you know, there's a there's an amazing design for, you know, an automobile at Tesla. But it takes hundreds, thousands of people to build that car to that spec. And that is, you know, every person who's working under that plan is a piece of that leverage outcome. Like labor is a is a form of leverage.

比如某人某项工作市场价值100美元/小时，公司支付50美元/小时，这里就存在杠杆。通过持有企业股权，你就能站在这种杠杆的获利方，而非相对获利较少的一方。当然这对双方都是正向交易，人们需要工作机会来提升技能，每个人起点都是如此。但通过持有股权...

There's, you know, someone can perform a task for a $100 an hour and that company is gonna pay them $50 an hour to do it, but it's worth a 100 to the market. So there's leverage in that. And you wanna be, you know, by owning the equity of that business, you are on the the profiting side of that leverage instead of the, like, slightly less profiting side of that leverage. Not that it's not a, you know, a positive trade for both because people need jobs and employment and pick up skills and everything like that. You know, everybody's starts there at some point, but hopefully, by buying equity in that business.

这也是他提到的关键点。获取股权有很多方式，但真正致富的人几乎总是通过股权所有权实现的。

So that's a that's a piece that he talks about as well. There's a lot of ways to get equity, but the people who get truly wealthy almost always do it through equity ownership.

所以前两种算是传统杠杆，接下来是媒体，最后是编程/代码还是产品呢？

So those are the first I guess, are kind of the traditional two. And then we've got media and is it programming or code or product?

他他说，这有点拗口，但完整的定义是那些复制边际成本为零的产品。对，代码。代码。代码和媒体。

He he says, it's a little bit of a mouthful, but the the full kind of definition is products with no marginal cost of replication. Yeah. Code. Code. Code and media.

吉姆·奥肖内西实际上称之为符号操作，我觉得这个分类挺有意思，很宽泛，但包括播客。就像我们现在做的，录制一次，花两小时，但它能永久存在，不管是一百人听还是十万人听。那些价值依然在，即使我们不在场与人交谈，内容也能被获取和传播。

Jim O'Shaughnessy actually he refers to it as symbol manipulation, which I think is kind of interesting, like, broad classification, but, like, includes podcasts. Like, what we're doing right now is we record it once, you know, we spend two hours on it, but it lives on forever, you know, whether a 100 people listen to it or a 100,000 people listen to it. Like, that value is still there, and it can be available and served up even when we are not there to, you know, talk to people.

不需要每次有人想听，我们就得重复这段对话。

It's not like we have to have this conversation over and over again on demand every time that someone decides to do it.

对。他们打开播客应用说，我想听克里斯和埃里克的节目，然后我们——

Yeah. They pull open their podcast app and say, I wanna listen to Chris and Eric and we

埃里克，老兄。又有人这么干了。我们得起床了。

Eric, mate. Someone's done it again. We're gonna have to wake up.

我刚才说什么来着？记不清我们怎么开始的了。

What did I say? I can't remember how we started.

所以就是那样，然后谈到代码。那代码是怎么运作的？能举个例子吗？

So it's it's that and then it's, talking about the code. So how would code work? What would be an example of that?

是的。要知道，有人编写了一个软件程序，可能一个人购买，也可能一百人或一千人购买，全球各地的服务器农场可以将其分发给用户。这个程序可能需要更新以保持相关性，但一旦运行起来，成千上万的人都可以购买。这就是为什么我们看到软件和SaaS（软件即服务）行业有着巨大的利润空间，而这在工业时代是根本不存在的。因此，复制这些解决方案的边际成本比以往任何时候都要低，这彻底改变了某些行业的经济模式，带来了非常非常有趣的变化。我认为我们仍在观察这种变化的影响，而我还不太确定。

Yeah. That's, know, someone writes a software program that one person could buy or a 100 people could buy or a thousand people could buy and there's, know, server farms all over the world that can dish it out to people and that program may need to be updated and kept relevant, but once it runs, a thousand people can buy and that's why we're seeing like enormous margins in software and SaaS, which is really a thing that you know, didn't exist in the industrial era. And so the marginal cost of replicating some of these solutions is just lower than it has ever been, and it completely changes the economics of some of these businesses in ways that are really, really interesting. And I think we're still kind of seeing what the impact of that is. And I don't know.

这种演变过程会非常有趣。我认为，从历史背景来看它会如何发展，以及我们将如何看待它，都会非常有意思。但它解释了为什么我们周围充斥着如此丰富的媒体、软件和其他事物。关于产品化这一点，我想补充的重要特征是它们是无须许可的，对吧？

It's gonna be really interesting how this it's still evolving. It's gonna be really interesting, I think, how it looks in a historical context and how we're gonna feel about it. But it it accounts for this abundance of of media and software and things that we see around us. And the other thing I would say about the productized piece that is important is that they are permissionless. Right?

互联网是一个巨大的精英体系，任何人都可以录制播客并发布到全世界，只有最优秀的才会被听众发现并持续传播。但没人能阻止你录制播客，这里没有编辑把关，也不需要大量资金投入。同样，没人能阻止你在GitHub上提交开源代码并分享出去。

So the Internet is this giant meritocracy where anyone can record a podcast and push it out into the world and only the best ones are gonna get listened to and surfaced and the audience is gonna kind of let that continue to snowball. But no one can stop you from recording a podcast. There's no editor. There's no there's not a huge capital requirement. No one can stop you from, you know, submitting open source code on GitHub and getting it out there.

没人能阻止你开通Gumroad账户开始在互联网上销售商品。这里的关键在于，启动某个项目、发布内容或参与这个精英体系的成本从未如此之低，而如果你做得好，获得的回报基本上是没有上限的。

No one can stop you from getting a Gumroad account and, you know, starting to kind of sell things on the Internet. So there's a there's a key element here where the cost of starting something or getting something out and putting your entry into this meritocracy has has never been lower, and the rewards for doing it are basically uncapped if you do it well enough.

刚才那段内容，可能每个听众都应该回头再听一遍，尤其是如果你对这个概念还不熟悉的话。对于像你这样沉浸在硅谷氛围中、深谙高杠杆效应智慧的人来说，这可能被视为理所当然。但绝大多数人，甚至包括西方世界的许多人，看待工作、财务或致富途径的方式要线性得多，而非如此指数级。他们想的是：我在一家企业工作，我变得更擅长这份工作。

That particular section there is something that everyone listening probably should go back and listen to, especially if you're new to this concept. I appreciate that for guys like yourself who's sort of just bathing in Silicon Valley and and the sort of wisdom of the highly leveraged that it might just now be taken as for granted. But the vast, vast, vast majority of people, even in the Western world, don't see work or finances or the route to wealth in that sort of a way, it's a lot more linear than exponential like that. It's I work at a business. I become better at a business.

我的时薪提高了。比如，如果你告诉某人：'嘿，你可以找到一份每小时500英镑或1000美元的工作'，他们会觉得难以置信。但如果你说：'你可以创建一门课程，教全球所有人如何做那件能让他们每小时赚500或1000英镑的事，你每两小时就能赚10美元'。

I get paid more per hour. You know, if you were to say to someone, hey, man. You can have a job that pays you £500 an hour, a thousand dollars an hour or whatever. Like, unbelievable. But then if you were to say you can create a course that teaches everyone on the planet how to do that thing that can earn them £500 or a thousand pounds an hour, you could make $10 every, like, every couple of hours.

他们会说：'我不明白。我只是在做同样的工作啊。不，不，不是这样的。'

That they'll be like, well, I don't understand. Like, I'm just doing the same job. No. No. No.

这是关于抽象化。这是关于能够大规模地做事。这是关于能够利用自己。这正是Naval所说的。他说，就是把自己产品化。

It's about abstraction. It's about being able to do stuff at scale. It's about being able to leverage yourself. And that's something that Naval says. He says, is it productize yourself?

是的。那就像是整个推文风暴的总结——把自己产品化。对我来说，需要反复理解几次才能消化或重新打包所有这些概念，最终归结为这两个词：把自己产品化。但我觉得有少数人正在以某种方式实践这一点，甚至可以说是在教学。你知道，我花了很多时间研究这些材料。我喜欢认为自己理解了这些概念。

Yeah. That's like the summary of the entire tweet storm is productize yourself. And it it for me, it took a few passes through to kind of understand and be able to unpack or repack all of those concepts back into just the two words, productize yourself. But I think there's a few people that kind of, are living this in a way that is even teaching you know, I've spent a lot of time with this material. Like, I like to think I get the concepts.

但看着像Jack Butcher这样的人，我不知道你是否关注他。他是一家英国公司。是的，没错。他为这本书贡献了插图。

But watching guys like Jack Butcher, I don't know if you you follow him at all. He's a British company. Yes. Yes, they are. And he, so he contributed the illustrations for the book.

所以如果你喜欢这些插图，你就是喜欢Jack Butcher，不管你是否意识到。他在将自己产品化方面做得极其出色，创造了资产、课程和产品，并教人们如何将想法可视化。这是他多年来与财富500强公司和顶级机构合作所培养出的惊人技能。他极其擅长这一点，并将其转化为一项惊人的事业，以及一种回馈观众、帮助他人积累这一宝贵技能的绝佳方式。对我来说，能够简单地将这些抽象概念可视化，在理解这类内容时具有重大意义。

So if you love the illustrations, you love Jack Butcher, whether you know it or not. And he's done an absolutely masterful job of productizing himself and creating assets and courses and products and teaching people how to visualize ideas. This incredible skill that he has developed over you know, years of working with Fortune 500 companies and top tier agencies and things like that. He is incredibly skilled at it and he is turning that into an incredible business and an incredible kind of way to give back to the audience and help other people like accumulate this skill that has been so valuable. I mean, for me, just to help kind of inculcate these ideas into my head like being able to visualize them simply really carries a lot of weight when you're working with things that are, like, a little bit abstract like this.

你能简要地用Jack为例，说明他从过去在代理机构采用'一个问题，一个解决方案'模式到现在所做之事的转变吗？我认为这将是一个绝佳的方式来总结和阐明我们目前讨论的内容。

Can you use Jack just briefly as an example between what he was doing as the agency with the one problem, one solution to what he's doing now? I think that would be really wonderful way to sort of just bookend and illustrate what we've gone through so far.

好的，我尽力而为。我对他的故事了解得不是特别透彻。如果你们还没邀请过他，我相信他将来会是位精彩的嘉宾来亲自讲述。但我会尽我所能复述Butcher的故事——尽管可能会讲得支离破碎。

Yeah. I'll I'll do my best. I I don't know the story incredibly well. And if you haven't had him on again, I'm sure he'd be an amazing guest at some point, to tell his own story. But I'll I'll butcher the butcher story the best I can.

精彩。他当时在为某家高端代理机构工作，机构以每小时数千美元的价格外包他的服务。作为才华横溢的设计师，他为财富500强公司和豪华汽车品牌设计标识和网站等。但据我所知，他经常在工作中疲于奔命，环顾四周时心想：'老兄，我创造了巨大价值，却有很多人在这个过程中分走了一杯羹。'

Nice. So he he was working for, you know, some high some high class agency that was billing him out at, you know, thousands of dollars an hour and he's a very talented designer. And so he was working, you know, building logos and websites and things for, you know, Fortune 500 companies and high end fancy car companies and stuff like that. And was just getting his ass kicked, I think, regularly at work and looking around. Was like, man, I'm creating a ton of value and a ton of people are kind of taking their scrape along the way.

于是他创办了自己的代理公司，试图重新找回一些那种感觉。起初进展顺利，但他陷入了我们之前讨论的那种线性陷阱——他拼命接单、疯狂工作，却始终觉得‘天啊，这样下去我怎么才能突破’。于是他开始挤出时间研发产品，最初推出的是Visualize Value系列，我记得《每日精要》或《每日宣言》是他的首款产品。

And so he started his own agency, to kind of try to recapture some of that. And that was like going well but he was in that kind of linear trap we were talking about where he was billing out, he was working his face off and he was just like, man, I don't know how I'm gonna like get ahead with this. And so he started kind of stealing time away from himself to kind of start working on products. And so he started with, the Visualize Value. I think the Daily Digest or the Daily Manifest was the first product that he came out with.

这本质上是套问题集与资源包，帮助你每天早晨通过填写工作表来梳理目标，保持对高价值事项的专注。成功后他又升级推出社群类产品，如今他的旗舰项目是《构建一次，销售两次》——一本产品化实战指南。他开设了视觉化创意课程和个人产品化课程，生意火爆得很。关注他的推特就知道，他对经营数据完全公开透明。

It was really this, kind of set of questions and resources for you to kind of go over your goals and work work through this little worksheet every morning to kind of keep you focused and keep you focused on the high leverage things. And did well with that and kind of layered that up into selling a bit bit more, of a community kind of product to get people together. And that now, I think his kind of flagship piece is, build twice build once, sell twice, which is this like productization playbook. And so he sold courses on how to visualize your ideas and courses on how to productize yourself, basically. And it the business is going gangbusters, you know, follow him on Twitter and he's he's very open about his numbers.

过去两年我写书期间，亲眼见证他运用书中理念创造的奇迹。从财务角度看，他这两年比我高效得多。强烈推荐大家去关注他，真的值得学习。

It's really been an incredible thing to watch just in the time of, you know, the last two years while I was writing this book. He was busy applying the lessons from it and he he made a better use of the last two years than I did from a financial perspective. But, yeah, give him a follow-up. Check it out.

他是个了不起的人。这个小故事完美印证了我们的观点：即便像他这样才华横溢、收入丰厚的企业职员，也会遭遇收入天花板和自由限制。就像你说的，层层抽成后，你每天五千美元的收入被老板拿走50%，再扣税，最后到手一万五——虽然不少，但远不及应有价值。更何况还要受制于人，无法自由休假。真正的突破在于创立自己的企业。

He's a great guy. So that that little story that hopefully really drills home the point that we're talking about here, that you have even someone who's highly talented and highly remunerated already working within a business, but there's a a glass ceiling on firstly how much you can earn plus the freedom that you have, etcetera, etcetera. And that is because, as you said, that scraping off the top that happens, you get billed out with $5 for a day, but your bosses take 50% of that, and then there's VAT and the and then you walk away with a grand and a half, which is still a lot, but it's nowhere near as much as you could have got. Plus, you're still constrained by working for someone and not being able to take time off whenever you want. And then there's a kind of a diagonal upward and sideways move, which is to owning your own company.

这样你就能开始撬动劳动力杠杆：成为公司门面担当，聘请设计师处理基础工作。但即便如此，你能承接的客户量仍受限于亲自拜访特斯拉等世界五百强企业的时间。‘这是我们为您设计的方案’——说完又要转交团队执行，陷入无休止的会议拉锯战。

Then you could start to leverage a little bit with regards to the labor. You could get you could perhaps be the face of it. You could be the ambassador, the one who has the gravitas and is well known, and then put designers in underneath you so you don't necessarily have to do as much grunt work. But even that, you can only onboard as many clients as you have time to fly to meet them to the fortune five hundred, the Tesla company, whatever it might be. Here's what we're gonna do for your design right now.

相比之下，更好的方式是：把迄今为止积累的所有专业知识系统化，打造成课程。‘我将教你用自身专业知识制作同款课程’——这就是他‘构建一次，销售两次’甚至‘销售二十万次’的精髓。要是能买Jack Butcher的股票，我绝对会投。

I'll pass it back down. Endless meetings back and forth. As opposed to saying, right. Okay. I can conceptualize and wrap up into a course all of the stuff that I know on how to be the person who can do all of the things that are up to this point and even this point.

这个财富洞见实在太精彩了。希望更多人读完这本书能真正理解：吞下这颗红色药丸需要极大勇气，但它将彻底改变你的认知维度。

I will teach you how to make a course that's exactly like this course using whatever specific knowledge you have, and that will continue to sell. And once you've written that, that is exactly his build once, sell twice, or build once, sell fucking 200,000 times or whatever is going on at the moment. If I could buy stocks in Jack Butcher, I would do it. So that's, I think, a really, really interesting insight into wealth, and there'll be a lot of people who hopefully will go and read the book and it'll make a little bit more sense. But that's such a huge red pill to swallow.

比如，真正理解如何从单纯的时间换金钱的一对一模式中跳脱出来，开始真正地、真正地利用杠杆效应。对很多人来说，这是一个非常巨大、近乎正交的思维转变。

Like, to actually be able to understand exactly how you, start to move away from just time for money at that one for one, and then start to really, really leverage. It's a really big, really big sort of orthogonal shift for a lot of people.

确实如此。而且这非常反直觉，就像人类很难在脑海中形成复利计算的直觉一样——我们难以直观理解事物如何复利增长，以及指数回报的运作机制。

It is. And it's very, it's very counterintuitive. It's very, like, difficult for humans to kind of get in their head in the same way that it's difficult for us to intuitively do the math on compounding and understand, like, how things compound and how the exponential returns work.

让我插一句，稍后你继续。沃伦·巴菲特95%的财富是在他60岁生日之后创造的。你知道这个事实吗？

Like Let me put let me jump in there, and I'll let you continue. 95% of Warren Buffett's wealth was created after his 60 birthday. You know that one?

知道。这太不可思议了。很多人一生中基本上完成两段完整的职业生涯，对吧？像他这样的情况简直匪夷所思。

Yeah. It it's incredible. And there's so many people who do basically two full careers in their lifetime. Right? Like, that guy it's it's wild.

这属于那种听起来不对劲、似乎不可能成立的事情——你看着图表都觉得不合逻辑。但这就是复利的魔力。而这种复利效应在所有领域都适用。我认为杠杆是另一个类似概念，我数学不太好，可能需要找人帮忙解释清楚。

And it's it's one of those things that doesn't sound right and it can't possibly be true and you look at the graphs and it doesn't even make sense. But that's the power of compounding. Right? And so that that compounding kind of works in all of these areas. And I think leverage is another like, I'm not very, like, mathematically inclined, so I might need to, like, enlist some help from somebody to get this.

但就像你看着复利曲线时会感到震撼那样——这怎么可能有效？但它确实在时间作用下生效。我觉得杠杆也有类似的特性，其原理如此反直觉，你必须亲眼见证其运作。同样地，它需要时间积累和叠加效应。读完这本书后，这大概是我最想深入研究的课题。

But I'm there is probably in the same way that you can, like, look at a compounding chart and be, that is fucking mind blowing. Like, there's no way that should work, but it's how it works when you just give it the time. I I think there's something similar with Leverage that is just so difficult to intuit that you have to kind of see it in action. And it it the same way, it takes time to to work and build and these things build on each other. It's it's a thing it's probably the thing I'm most interested in digging into more after having finished this book.

自从被明确归类为'杠杆'，并被划分为三大类后，我对它的认知彻底改变了。这个定义比模糊概念强太多——现在既然知道存在这个体系，我就想深入研究。肯定有相关书籍课程，甚至可以制定杠杆检查清单：你在哪些方面被杠杆化？哪些没有？哪些该外包的5美元时薪任务占用了你做1万美元时薪工作的时间？这方面大有探索空间，我已经迫不及待要钻进这个兔子洞了。

It's it's a thing that once it got labeled as leverage and Deval categorized it into those kind of three broad classes of leverage, I started to think about it completely differently. And I think it's a huge it's a hugely improved label on whatever like, now that I know that there's a thing there, I wanna go dig into it and I wanna study it. And there's probably books and, like, courses and things to do, like a leverage checklist on, like, how are you being leveraged and how are you not and where are you doing $5 an hour tasks where you should be outsourcing that and doing $10,000 an hour tasks. I think there's a lot to explore there and I'm kind of excited to kinda go down that rabbit hole.

我同意。我认为尽可能多地参考实际案例很重要，比如杰克·布彻这样的人，我自己也从他那里获得过灵感，并且我对这个节目的影响力和策略一直相当透明。要知道，很少有东西能像金钱和体重那样给你一个客观的衡量标准——你有多胖、多富有，就这么简单。

I agree. And I think that having as many practical examples as we can, guys like Jack Butcher, I've taken inspiration from him myself, and I've been quite transparent with the, reach and the plays of this show. It's not often that you have an objective measure of anything, you know, like success or impact or happiness or you know, money's, like, one of the few things and body weight. Like, that's it. Like, money and money, you know how fat you are and how rich you are, that's it.

不过，是的，能有这种思维方式很好

But, yeah, it it's it's good to have that thinking

我正想说这个。我觉得你作为前运动员的本能反应就是：给我记分牌，我他妈一定要赢。

I was just I was just gonna say that. I feel like your your former athlete responds to, like, give me a scoreboard and I'm I'm gonna fucking win.

没错。没错。

Yes. Yes.

让我看看

Show me

我是说，游戏化处理事情也是个取巧的办法。我们总被这些抽象概念困扰，不擅长追踪数据——但凡不用MyFitnessPal就试图减肥的人都懂这种痛苦：刚才吃了多少卡路里？哦大概这么多吧...

how I mean, gamifying gamifying stuff is such a hack as well. The fact that we we struggle with these abstractions, we're not very good at tracking things. Not anyone that's tried to lose weight without using MyFitnessPal. Like, you know the you know the pain of, like, how many calves was that? Oh, it was probably this.

结果本该严格减脂的阶段，你觉得自己已经很严格了，体重却增加了。完全搞不懂发生了什么。这时候就需要...

And you get you gain you're supposed to be on a hard cut. You feel like you've been on a hard cut, and you've you've gained weight. You know, what the what what happened? Like, you need to

测量一切事物。

measure absolutely everything.

没错。没错。没错。我们该如何优先排序并集中精力？

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. How can we prioritize and focus?

优先排序与集中精力，可以说是构建财富章节的拱顶石。它确实尽力排除了所有与积累财富无直接关系的事务。他特别指出，许多人试图通过攻击玩财富游戏的人来建立社会地位，而我们都在参与这种社会等级游戏，以及关于他人如何看待我们的游戏。

Prioritize and focus is is kind of the, capstone on the building wealth section. And it really it does its best to kind of push aside all the things that are not specifically about building wealth. So one of the things he he kind of looks at is that there's a lot of people who are out there trying to kind of build status. And they are they build status by attacking people playing wealth games. And there's like this social hierarchy game that we are all kind of playing in this how we're perceived game that we're all kind of playing.

但对大多数人而言，财富并非由此创造。除非你是媒体人或演员等例外情况。关键在于摒弃干扰，理解财富的真正来源：杠杆效应、责任感、专业知识、创建或收购企业股权，并让这些要素随时间复利增长。确保自己取得渐进式进步，并适当再投资，剩下的就交给时间和耐心。关于勤奋的讨论常有，但比勤奋更重要的是确保优先处理能带来长期回报的高杠杆工作。

But that is not even for most people how wealth is created. You know, maybe if you're a media person or like an actor, there's an exception to that. But for the most part, like, getting rid of all of the things that are distractions from that and understanding, like, where wealth truly comes from, leverage, accountability, specific knowledge, building or buying equity in a business, and just letting that compound, you know, getting getting the you know, you're making sure that you are making incremental progress and making sure that it's being reinvested appropriately and then just giving it time and patience to compound, like focusing on the right stuff. You know, there's there's always a kind of debate about hard work and hard work is important. But the thing that comes before hard work is making sure you are prioritizing the high leverage work that's gonna give you results over the long term and focusing on it.

若在错误的事情上拼命努力，终将徒劳无功。因此明确优先级至关重要——当你读完50页书时，应该已清楚自己的重点。比如今天对你而言，可能是录制这期播客，或是发布一周前完成的作品。

And if you're working hard on the wrong thing, you're not gonna get anywhere. And so getting that getting your priorities straight, which is really, you know, by the time you're 50 pages into the book, you should understand what your priorities are. You know? For you today, maybe it's recording this podcast. Maybe it's know, publishing something that you did a week ago.

若列出全部待办事项，很可能只有两件事最关键：要么建立杠杆，要么推动产出并引入资金用于再投资。其余事项要么价值低微，要么可以推迟处理，甚至委托他人。Naval提出的检验方法是：为你的时间设定极高的小时价值。他最近在推特上回答某人关于时间估值的问题时说——

There's probably if you write your whole to do list, there's probably two things that are the most critical. You know, you're either building leverage or pushing it out and and kind of pulling money in so that you can reinvest that. And everything else is kind of like either a low value task or if it got pushed to tomorrow, was fine or somebody else can pick it up for you. You know, one of the things that, Naval uses as a test for this is putting a really, really high hourly value on your time. So I think he he said today on Twitter that somebody asked him, like, so how do you value your time?

他给出的答案是每分钟100美元，即每小时6000美元。如果某件事可以外包或不做，且成本低于每分钟100美元，他就不做。对此有人反驳说：'当然，可你已经很富有了。'

He said, a $100 a minute. $6 an hour. If I can outsource it or not do it and it cost me less than a $100 a minute, I don't do it. And the the pushback for that is people are like, yeah, sure. But like, you're already rich.

他就说，不不不。我早在那之前就开始这么想了，当人们说我本该接受一份每小时20美元的工作之类的时候。对吧？但拥有那种思维，认为你的时间真的非常宝贵，你必须把它投资在那些高杠杆的任务上，那些关键优先事项上，你必须专注于那些，这是一种心理工具，可以用来保持专注，确保你在做正确的事情，让那个复利引擎持续运转。

He's like, no no no. I started that well before I started that when people would say I should have taken a $20 an hour job or something. Right? But having that mindset that like, your time is really valuable and you have to invest it in those high leverage tasks, those those key priorities and you've got to focus on those, that's, kind of a mental tool that you can use to keep focused on that and be sure you're working on the right stuff that's gonna keep that compounding engine going.

这也是另一点。人们，尤其是如果你是工人阶级背景，像我一样，你知道，父母总是在不停地打扫房子，或者洗车，修剪外面的草地，所有这类事情。实际上，我的第一个老板，我第一个为Nightlife获得的特许经营权的人，是拥有Carnage的那个人。他是个自大狂，但有一些非常棒的见解。其中之一正是这一点，如果你能以低于你时间收费的价格外包某件事，虽然不如Naval设定的那种非常非常高的自我定价那么有洞察力。

That's another thing as well. People, especially if you're working class, working class background like myself, you know, mom and dad always cleaning the house consistently or or washing the cars, mowing the the grass outside, all that sort of stuff. It took, my first ever boss actually, the first ever franchise that I got for Nightlife, was the guy who owned Carnage. And he was a megalomaniac, but had some really great insights. And one of them was precisely this, that if you can outsource something for less than you charge your time out, it wasn't quite as insightful as Naval's setting yourself this very, very high, price.

但如果你至少能付钱让别人做某件事，费用低于你对自己的时间收费，你在干什么？比如，直接去工作吧。除非你特别喜欢洗车，我就是不理解这种人。也许对某些人来说是这样，但不是我。不是我。

But if you can, at the very least, pay someone to do a thing for less than you charge your time out for, what are you doing? Like, just go go to work. Unless you particularly have one of these guys who absolutely adores washing the car, which I am I don't get. I just for some people, maybe, but not for me. Not for me.

我们可以继续说，修剪草地也是一样。你认为人们在通往实现财富的最终目标的路上还会遇到哪些绊脚石？我们已经谈到了人们被低价值任务缠住的问题。他们会因此绊倒。如果你今天做了足够多的低价值任务——我今天就被低价值任务完全淹没了，但我还没有转向雇佣一个虚拟助理或私人助理。

And we could go like, cutting the grass is the same thing. What are the other stumbling blocks that you think people fall over on the way to this end goal of of achieving wealth. So we've talked about the fact that people get kinda tied up doing low value tasks. They trip over that. And if you do sufficient low value task today is a I've just been absolutely submerged in low value tasks today, but I haven't made the pivot to get a VA or a PA.

所以，要么不做这些任务，要么一切都会崩溃，因为这些是必要的但可以由别人完成的小行政任务。你认为人们还会在哪些地方绊倒？

So, it was either, like, don't do them or that everything comes crumbling down because it's little bits admin tasks that are necessary but could be done by someone else. What are some of the other places that people stumble over?

是的。我是说，我认为，就像千刀万剐的死亡，感觉就像每次做一个决定，比如，我就做这个吧。自己做比找别人做更容易。因为即使是雇佣一个虚拟助理或私人助理这样相对花费不多的事情，也是一项令人畏惧的大任务，而眼前有一个清晰简单的任务。

Yeah. I I mean, I think that, like, death by a thousand cuts of, like, you feel like it's one decision at a time of, like, I'll just do this. It'll be easier to just do this than get somebody else to do it. Because it is an intimidating thing to go hire somebody even like, you know, VA or PA for relatively low amount of money. It's still like a big gnarly task when like a clear simple task is in front of you.

可以直接做完了事。我认为，人们可能低估了他们特定知识的价值或他们有多么独特。这是我们都有的一种东西，你知道，自我怀疑和不安全感，我们习惯于走在街上，感觉和看到的成千上万其他人没有太大不同，这些成功故事感觉如此遥远，好像那些人跟我们如此不同。但其实不是，我认为每个人都有真正有价值的东西可以贡献，可以以有趣的方式产品化自己，每个人的故事对某人来说都是有价值的。

Can just do it and be done. I I think, I think people underestimate maybe how valuable their specific knowledge is or how unique they are. That's something that is kind of we all have, you know, self doubts and insecurities and we are like, you know, we are used to walking down the street and feeling not too dissimilar from 10,000 other people that we saw these success stories and it feels so maybe far away and like those people were so different than us. But it's not like, I I think everyone has something really valuable to bring and can productize themselves in an interesting way and everyone's story can be valuable to someone.

冒名顶替综合症真是种要命的毒药。

Impostor syndrome is a hell of a drug.

没错。这种毒药太厉害了，我想说无论你起点多低——就像杰克又提出了绝妙的解决方案。他的目标简单到在互联网上赚1美元。只要向一个人卖出一件1美元的东西，你就会感觉不同。这会形成滚雪球效应，逐渐建立信心。

Yeah. It's a hell of a drug and I would say like, no matter how small you start, like Jack again has an amazing cure for this. His goal is just like make $1 on the internet. Just go sell one thing to one person for $1 and you will feel different. It will start that snowball and you kind of slowly build up the confidence.

要知道，也许你得从新手教程级别开始，但你会持续积累这种信心，慢慢找到自己的受众群体，在这迷宫中摸索出路。迈出第一步就能给你迈出第二步、第三步的勇气。但听着——无论谁在听这段话——你比想象中更独特更有价值，每个人都是基因、经历、观点和信仰的奇妙组合，都拥有能带给别人的某种技能或见解，只要你学会用正确方式包装它，看看人们对你想要传递的内容有何反应。所以这甚至比那些实际障碍更重要——就是相信你有值得去做、值得创造价值的事情。

Know, you gotta start at the tutorial level maybe, but you're gonna keep building that confidence and you're gonna slowly kind of grow your way into finding your audience and find your way through that maze. And just taking that first step will give you the confidence to take the second to take the third. But you you know, whoever is listening to this, you are more unique and valuable than you think you are and everyone is kind of an incredible combination of their genetics and their experience and their perspectives and their beliefs and everyone is unique and everyone has some sort of skill or insight that they can bring to other people if you can learn it and package it the right way and just see what people respond to that that you wanna bring to them. So that's, you know, that's probably even before the kind of logistical stumbling blocks is just the belief that there's something there for you to do and for you to add value.

老兄，我们每个人都是某个领域的专家。

We're all an expert in something, man.

千真万确。

Like Absolutely.

假设你从23岁起就是全职母亲，有个大家庭。可能还收养了几个孩子，现在成功将八个婴儿——无论是亲生还是领养的——平安抚养到成年。那你绝对是育儿专家：知道如何准备上学事项，如何安排早餐备餐。

Let's say that you're a mother of you've been a full time mother since you were 23, and you've had you got this huge family. Maybe you've even adopted a couple of children as well, and you've got now taken eight infants, either your genetics or someone else's, and got them to adulthood without anything catastrophic happening. You are an absolute expert in rearing children. This is how you can manage getting them ready for school. This is how you can manage doing food prep on the morning.

这些看似不性感的领域——比如家庭事务、维系而非寻找伴侣的关系经营——确实不够光鲜。没人觉得经营大家庭的实用技巧或相关SaaS课程能致富。但这存在巨大市场需求。我现在担心的是：制作在线课程与写书所需的工作量差距，以及两者报酬的分化正急剧扩大，未来课程将泛滥成灾。詹姆斯·克利尔没把《原子习惯》做成Teachable课程，实在让我费解。

Like, I know that these especially the unsexy things like the domestic side, the, relationship side of stuff that's more to do with, not just finding a new partner, but actually further entrenching and, improving your existing relationship, then that's not that sexy. You know, no one no one thinks that I'm gonna get rich on dealing with the practicalities of having a big family and making a a SaaS course about it. But there is a huge, huge, huge market for it. And what you're seeing now, here's something that I'm I've got a little bit of a fear about, which is that the disparity in work required to produce an online course versus to produce a book and the remuneration that you get from producing an online course versus producing a book and now bifurcating so aggressively that we are going to be swimming in courses. The fact that James Clear didn't just do Atomic Habits on Teachable is, you know, beyond me.

但他决定，哦，要用这种古老、愚蠢的沟通方式，印在纸上，或许还能在Kindle上看到。不。我会口头表达，但我希望至少能平衡一下，因为我确切知道网上有无数人，就算生死攸关也写不出一本书，却在制作在线课程或教人技能方面大获成功。就像那个Instagram网红，在网上积累影响力后，现在靠每天发帖赚一千美元。但若让他们坐下来连四个单词都组织不起来。

But he decided, oh, let's use this archaic old, like, stupid form of communicating something and print it on paper, and maybe you can get it on Kindle. No. I'll speak it in a but I I'm you know, I I hope that something happens to at least even the balance out because I know for a fact that I have tons and tons of people that I've seen on the Internet who couldn't write a book if their life depended on it, but are killing it in in making online courses or teaching people to do stuff. And everyone knows the same with the Instagram influencer who managed to get clout online and is now monetizing off the back of $1,000 a post per day. But if you ask them to sit down and try and string four words together, they wouldn't be able to do it.

所以我我认为，目前我们正在不同极端间摇摆不定，或许这正与启蒙时期相反——那时学识被严格限制，如今完全解放，人人都能接触知识。然后，好吧，现在但凡有点小聪明的人都能暴富。对吧。

So I I I think that there is a little bit of a we're vacillating between different extremes at the moment, and perhaps we're seeing this counter to the sort of enlightenment period where you had people where intellect and academics were very, very tightly confined, and now it's been completely emancipated, and everyone can get access to it. And, right. Okay. Now everyone that's that's, like, remotely clever can be super rich. Right.

好吧。现在让我们找个介于两者之间的理想平衡点。

Okay. Now let's find somewhere that's that's a happy medium between the two.

是啊。我在想未来回看这段时期会像淘金热吗？其实我也有同感——我对在线课程充满敬意。有些日子我确实在思考你刚才说的感受。同时我认为它们极具价值，能更彻底改变人们，因为它们融入了问责机制、社交元素，以及视觉听觉学习方式，这对那些从书本收获有限的人可能更有效。

Yeah. I wonder how much looking back this will look like a a gold rush. Then I actually have the same so I I have a huge admiration for online courses. And I think I have definitely spent some days thinking about exactly how you feel and how what you just articulated. And I also think that it is at the same time, there is so much value in them and they can be so much more transformative for people because they kind of they layer in accountability and social mechanisms and they add some kind of visual and audio learning that, you know, people who, don't get as much like out of a book might resonate with.

投入的时间金钱会让你更专注。如果想改变自我，除非你有足够自律将书中内容转化为现实，否则在线课程绝对物超所值。我认为这里面确实...

And the time that it takes, it actually like makes you more invested. The money you invest makes you more invested. And so if you wanna change who you are as a person, unless you really have the discipline to bring your full self to take a book and transform it into your reality, then I absolutely believe an online course can be incredibly value added and worth every penny that you're paying for it. I think that the There's definitely

关键在于人们是为最终结果买单。花10英镑买詹姆斯·克莱尔的《原子习惯》，或付一千英镑但能实践书中90%内容？很多人会选择后者，因为他们购买的是终极目标。

The key insight there is the fact that people are paying for the end result. They're paying for the outcome that they get at the end. If Yep. You will be to be able to say, right, you can buy James Clear's Atomic Habits for £10 or you can pay a thousand pounds, but you'll implement 90% of the book. A lot of people would more than have because they're paying for the end goal.

流程越顺畅，完成率和成功率越高，收入自然越可观。我...

And the the more frictionless that you can make that and the higher completion, the higher success rate that you can make that as well, you're gonna have Yeah. Justifiably more revenue. I

我认为我们可能刚刚跨越了在线课程创新的某个顶峰，这些创新真正实现了为人们提供成果。比如我在Reforge的经历，那是一个硅谷式的增长咨询或增长实践者课程。虽然价格昂贵，但课程质量惊人，由硅谷一些最杰出的增长专家授课。Tiago Forte和David Perel的课程也是如此，他们与Jack Butcher的课程一样，非常注重成果交付。

I think we're We just maybe crested the hill of some innovation in those online courses that gets That actually makes it deliver the results to people. I think, you know, I went through this at Reforge, which is like a a Silicon Valley kind of growth consulting, or growth practitioner sort of course. It's an expensive course, but it is incredible. It's taught by some of the most brilliant kind of growth people in the valley. You see it with Tiago Forte and David Perel's courses, like, they are very focused on delivering the outcome with Jack Butcher's.

这与那种‘我们录了些大学讲座放到网上’的模式截然不同。这些课程创新者正在做真正了不起的事情，改变着人们的生活。但正如你所说，市场上也充斥着大量骗子，他们随便承诺就能让人掏200美元——只要我夸大承诺，事后把责任推给学员‘没认真执行’，就能轻松赚钱。

And and that is that is very different than like, you know, the, hey, we recorded some college lectures and put them online sort of deal. And these these, like, artisanal, like, almost kind of innovators in in courses are really doing some awesome stuff and transforming lives. But there's also a whole bunch of shysters out there to your point that are like, debt people pay $200 for anything. Like, if I make some, you know, vast promises, and then I can just blame them for not actually following through and make a ton of money on it.

大家都知道。我采访过Mike Wynnett。你看过YouTube上的《反创业者》吗？没看过？老兄。

Everyone knows. So I had Mike Wynnett on. Have you seen The Contrapreneur on YouTube? No. Oh, dude.

你绝对会爱上这个。大多数听众应该认识他——一个英国人。他揭露了那些被他称为‘反创业者’的人在网上使用的肮脏心理把戏，比如Dan Peña这类人。

You will absolutely adore this. So, most of the people that are listening will be familiar with him. British guy. He looked at the naughty psychological tricks that are being used by what he deems contrapreneurs online. So it's your Dan Penas of this world.

还有Grant Cardone之流，标榜高价课程然后疯狂打折，搞什么限时限量优惠。明明卖的是无限供应的产品，却谎称数量有限，还自诩是正经商人？省省吧。据他调查，唯一能从Grant Cardone课程赚钱的只有课程转售商。

It's the Grant Cardones, and it's, high ticket value, heavily discounted down. It's the limited time, limited limited amount of offers. Like, saying that there is a limited number of an infinite product and genuinely considering yourself to be a a legitimate businessman. Like, fuck off. And the only people that make money from those courses, the only people who he's ever found who've made money from Grant Cardone's courses are resellers.

也就是说，唯一赚钱的方式就是不断拉人入坑卖课——这他妈就是金字塔骗局！虽然它靠交付内容规避了传销的法律定义，但当内容烂到只能靠发展下线盈利时，本质就是传销。所以我对在线课程行业确实抱有担忧。

So the only people who make money from the course are people reselling the course, which is a fucking pyramid scheme. That is a pyramid scheme. I'm aware that it's not it's managed to subvert the expectations of it being a pyramid scheme because it delivers something. But when that something is so shit that the only thing you can make money on is reselling more shit, Like, that that is what it is. So, yeah, I think, you know, to kind of bookend the, I have concerns over the online course world.

别误会，我计划通过创建‘合作伙伴学院’来实现播客变现——让Podcast Notes团队做每期摘要，建立类似Jack那样的讨论社区，本质上是个超级加强版的Patreon，提供真正有用的内容。但现在我在思考：最低入门门槛该设多少？

Like, don't get me wrong. The plan my main plan to assist monetization for the podcast is to create a partner academy, which is, the guys from Podcast Notes doing summaries of every episode, community similar to Jack's where we can discuss about stuff. It's basically like a a Patreon on steroids with a ton of stuff that'll really help people. But I'm like, right. What's the lowest entry ticket?

我能以每月9英镑的价格做到吗？我能提供这么多价值吗？而且这样能行得通吗？对吧。好的。

Can I do it for £9 a month? Can I can I give all of this value for that much? And will it will it work? Right. Okay.

是的。太棒了。相比之下，有些东西价格昂贵却毫无价值，可能要花1万美元，或者5.09美元、9.07美元之类的。所以我认为

Yeah. Great. As opposed to it being something that costs that literally doesn't add any value and costs $10,000 or, you know, $5.09 $9.07 or whatever it might be. So I think

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。希望我们能见证人们重新觉醒，识破那些欺诈手段的趋势，

Yeah. Hopefully, we will see the resurgence in, people becoming more savvy to the the dick funnels approach,

这招现在可流行了。不知道是不是你发明的，但我超喜欢这个说法。

which is being used. I don't know if you claimed that, but I like it a lot.

这又是Mike Winnett的经典语录。对。他...好吧。他下期节目要讲ClickFunnels背后的人是谁？反正就是那个创建ClickFunnels的家伙，现在肯定有人对着AirPods冲我大喊大叫了。

That's another that's another Mike Winnettism. Yeah. He Okay. His next his next episode is on who's the guy behind ClickFunnels? Anyway, the guy that created ClickFunnels there'll be people screaming down their their AirPods to me at the moment.

就是搞出欺诈套路的那家伙。

The guy that made dick funnels.

实际上，这就是我真正想做的事情，虽然现在还只是起步阶段，像是个婴儿般的小生意。但我希望能推动它发展，我认为未来会有大量课程涌现，尤其是在现实学校几乎全面转向线上的当下。我们讨论过的精英教育体系也将转向在线课程领域。我正在筹备的项目本质上是一个在线课程的'Wirecutter'，名为'Course Correctly'。

That's that's actually so this is I really wanna do I've it's only a toddler right now. It's like a baby baby business. But I I wanna get it going and where I think, there's so much to I think there's a wave of courses coming and especially as, like, actual real school is now pretty much online now that that this, like, the meritocracy that we talked about is gonna move into online courses. And something that I'm getting going is basically Wirecutter for online courses. It's called Course Correctly.

哦，Wirecutter是个高端评测网站，主要针对电子产品。我记得它被《纽约时报》收购了，应该是纽约那边。

Oh, Wirecutter is like this very high end, review site. It's for electronics mostly. It got acquired by the New York Times, I think, New York.

类似Trustpilot或TripAdvisor那样的平台？

Trust Trustpilot or TripAdvisor or whatever.

对，但更偏向于专业团队撰写、精心筛选的评测内容。

Yeah. More, more like staff written, highly curated reviews.

明白了。好的。嗯。

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

我正在设计机制让人们能免费获取课程，然后撰写极其详尽的评测——比如课程是否改变了你的生活？适合哪类人群？有哪些不足？课程承诺但未兑现的内容是什么？目前平台上已有几篇评测了。

I'm working out ways for people to basically, like, get the course for free and then, write a very, very detailed review of like, did it change your life? What kind of people is it good for? What is it not? What does the course promise but not deliver on? I've got a few reviews up on there already.

如果有人想为自己上过的课程写评测，我打算开始收录这些独立、公正且经过验证的在线课程评价。因为目前除了课程创作者自吹自擂的内容外，几乎找不到客观评价。想象一下，一个24岁的年轻人拿着全部积蓄准备购买课程时，却要在Grant Cardone这类课程之间盲目选择...

But if anybody wants to like write a review of a course that they have been on, like, I'm gonna start hosting independent, unbiased, like, verified reviews for online courses. Because I think it's so hard to find anything written about things that is not pushed out by the course creator themselves. And so separating some of this stuff and being like, you know, can you imagine being a 24 year old kid and you're sitting there with your life savings about to buy like one course or the other and you're like, I don't know, Grant Cardone

或者像格兰特·卡多内这样的人。这是我的建议，二十四岁的年轻人。别把钱花在格兰特·卡多内的课程上。是的，埃里克·曼，我得把你和迈克联系起来，因为他在这个领域所做的，特别是他以一种非常英国化的方式在做，既沉闷又讽刺，语调柔和却暗藏锋芒，而且极其有效。

or Grant like Cardone. Here's my advice, twenty four year old. Do not spend your money on Grant Cardone's course. Yeah. Eric Mann, you need to I'll link you in with Mike because what he's doing in this space specifically, he's doing it in a very British way, which is very kind of dour and and quite satirical, and and and sort of dulcet, but really vicious as well and and incredibly effective.

对，我会介绍你们俩认识，因为你绝对会喜欢他，他是个很棒的人。纳瓦尔是怎么建议我们获得好运的？

Yeah. I I'll link you two guys in because you would you would absolutely love him and he's a great guy. How does Naval suggest that we get lucky?

纳瓦尔将运气分为四种。第一种是纯粹的盲运，就像你偶然绊倒捡到宝。第二种是拼搏之运，比如你尽可能多地参加各种咖啡会谈。想想加里·维纳查克，就是拼搏之运的典型——天啊。

Naval categorizes four kinds of luck. There's just blind luck where you just trip over it. There's hustle luck where you're having every coffee you can find. You know, this is, I think of like Gary Vee is hustle luck like Oh god.

可怜的家伙。

Poor guy, man.

但这确实有效，对吧？只要你足够努力，就能扩大遭遇好运的表面积，就像找到顺风一样。第三种是提升敏锐度，深入某个领域寻找机会，并坚信它们存在，这至关重要。第四种最妙，我特别喜欢，因为当你的独特性达到一定程度时，运气就成了你的宿命。

But but it works, right? Like, if there if you work hard enough, you will increase your surface area to luck and like, you will kind of find some tailwinds. The third is increasing your sensitivity. And so just like getting deep enough into things and looking for opportunities and believing that they're there, is is a huge piece of it. And the fourth, which is beautiful and I love it, is because it becomes so unique that luck becomes your destiny.

比如，当你是唯一能解锁某个机会的人，或因某件事广为人知以致人们主动找上门时，运气便成了你的命运。这是第四种运气，最理想、最令人向往的类型。它需要最长时间，最难获得。但明白它的存在且在终点等你，能真正激励你前行，帮助你在观察他人时区分——那个人的运气属于哪种，另一个又属于哪种。

Like, when you are the only person who can unlock a certain opportunity or you are so well known for a certain thing that people just come to you for it, that is that is when luck becomes your destiny. That's the the fourth type of luck that is the the most ideal, the most sought after. It takes the long it takes a long time. It's the hardest to get. But understanding that it's there and it's at the end of that road, can really kind of draw you along and help you separate even as you're looking at other people, you know, what kind of luck did that person get versus the other.

对吧？沃伦·巴菲特如何走运，马克·库班又如何走运？是谁刚好在顶峰时卖出，又是谁因独特声誉成为唯一的选择对象？接到电话时感觉像运气，但这也是五十年辛勤工作的最终成果。

Right? What how does Warren Buffett get lucky versus how does Mark Cuban get lucky? Like, who who just kind of sold at the top and who has the sort of reputation and, kind of uniqueness that there's just only one person to call. And, like, it feels like luck when you get the call, but it's also the end result of fifty years of hard work.

当总是轮到你接到电话时，这正是我一直在尝试、琢磨这个概念的时候——我认识很多依然非常成功的人。詹姆斯·史密斯就是个很好的例子。他是个英国人，堪称私人教练界的戈登·拉姆齐。他揭穿那些胡扯的饮食法和无效的训练计划，有本畅销书，而且马上又要出版另一本。

When it's consistently you that's getting the call as well, that's when I I I've been trying I've been playing around with this concept for a little while to do with there's a lot of people I know who are still very successful. James Smith is a good example. British guy. He's like the Gordon Ramsay of the PT world. So he calls out bullshit diets and, ineffective training regimes, and he has a best selling book, and he's just about to release another one.

那几乎肯定会是本畅销书，他还通过在线学院赚得盆满钵满。而且，他有着非常独特的视角，因为他在全球范围内迅速走红，以至于内心仍潜藏着强烈的冒名顶替综合征。他虽不承认，但我知道它存在。他有本自己写的（非代笔）畅销书，写的是他深耕十年的行业，可他每天醒来仍担心人们会识破他其实不知所云的真相。我们每个人都难免会有这种时刻。

They'll almost certainly be a best selling book, and he makes retarded money through, his his online academy as well. And, yeah, he he has a very unique view because his descendants into clout, like global clout, has been so quick that he's still got a lot of latent impostor syndrome in him. He doesn't say it, but I know that it's I know that it's there. And he's got a a best selling book written by him, not ghostwritten, written by him on an industry that he worked in for ten years, and he's still waking up every morning waiting for people to rumble the fact that he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. And there has to be a point for all of us.

这就像是对那些才华横溢却仍自我怀疑的实干家们的警世钟。或许也是对我自己的提醒——当你的冒名感与现实屡次碰撞，而现实总能粉碎这种感受时，继续怀揣冒名顶替综合征更像是一种瘾，而非生存机制。适量的冒名感其实会表现为有益的谦逊，它能约束我们的ego，防止其失控。

And this is like a this is a siren song to the grafter who's talented but still doesn't believe in themselves. And maybe it's a a word to me myself as well. That there's only so many times that your impostor syndrome can clash up against reality and your reality annihilates your impostor syndrome before continuing to have impostor syndrome is more an addiction than it is a survival mechanism. I think a healthy amount of impostor syndrome actually can come across as humbleness, which is really useful. And it's it helps to wrangle our ego and stop it from getting out of control.

但关键区别在于，像Naval这样的人是主动选择在必要时谦逊，而非在某些领域怀有虚假的不足感。如果你正在做事，试着尽可能理性客观地审视自己的成就，问问自己：我是否持续超出了自我怀疑的预期？如果是，那么冒名感存在的合理范围就该重新调整了。但愿人们能明白这一点。

But there's an area where you'd like, Naval is humble because he chooses to be humble where he needs to be as opposed to having this false sense of a lack of enoughness in particular areas. And that's a very big distinction between that. So, yeah, if if you're doing stuff, try and look with as much rationality and logic as you can at the things that you've done and think like, look, am I am I continually beating the odds of what my own impostor syndrome expected me to do? And if that's the case, then that how would you say, like, the the window of what impostor where it should be needs to shift to one way or another. And hopefully hopefully, people will will see that.

同理，若从表象来看，若总是你被反复召唤、反复召唤、反复召唤，那么公平竞争。你认为这是我心理作用吗？你认为从责任这条线——即利益攸关、高度可见性，到这个一把钥匙开一把锁的解决方案，你就是能解决问题的那个人，因此你获得运气。在这两者之间的路径上，要避免追求地位，避免为影响力而影响力，避免等级游戏，这中间有很多左右转折。你觉得呢？

And if the same thing goes for the look, if it's constantly you getting the call over and over and over and over again, then fair play. Do you think it's something that's in my head. Do you think that the line from accountability, which is skin in the game, high visibility, to this one key, one lock solution, you are the person that can fix the the problem, therefore you get luck. On the route between those two things, avoiding the status seeking, avoiding the clout for clout's sake, avoiding the hierarchy games, like, there's a lot of left and right turns between that. Do you think?

是的，我认为如此。而且我觉得在责任与第四种运气——那种独特性运气和声誉运气之间划清界限是非常好的。我认为你通过长期展现出显而易见的良好判断力和良好结果来获得这种运气。

Yeah. I think so. And I I think it's a very good line to draw between accountability and and that fourth type of luck that is the the uniqueness luck and the, you know, sort of reputational luck. I think you you get that by having, you know, demonstrably good judgment and good outcomes over a very long period of time.

这是责任带来的复合结果。

It's compounding outcome of accountability.

这就是，你知道的，让人们愿意为你工作的方式。这就是让人们愿意投资你的方式。这就是让人们想要使用你的产品、倾听它们、从中学习或购买工具的方式。在某种程度上，这就是Basecamp的营销策略。对吧？

That's how, you know, you get people to wanna work for you. That's how you get people to wanna invest in you. That's how, you get people to want to, you know, use your products or or listen to them or learn from them or you know, buy the tools. Know, that's in a way, that's Basecamp's marketing strategy. Right?

当你开始将责任感视为品牌建设的核心时，你就会发现它是多么普遍和常见。甚至那些我们最信任的大公司，我们信任它们是因为我们了解背后的人。你知道，不仅仅是亚马逊，我们知道那是贝索斯；不仅仅是特斯拉，我们知道那是马斯克；不仅仅是伯克希尔哈撒韦，我们知道那是巴菲特。我们更擅长信任人并让人承担责任，而不是仅仅信任一个实体、一个没有具体人格的品牌。

It's it's when you start to see accountability, as as like the very essence of brand building, you start to see how pervasive it is and how common it is and how even, you know, the big companies that we trust the most, we trust them because we know the person behind them. You know, it's it's not just that it's Amazon. We know that that is Bezos, it's not just that it's Tesla, we know that it's Elon Musk, know. It's not just Berkshire Hathaway, it's Buffett. Like, we we are so much more adept at trusting people and holding people accountable than we are, you know, just an entity, just a company that that is a brand but not a person.

这有着深刻的社会根源，像是进化烙印在我们身上的。我们知道如何作为一个社区让个人承担责任，但不知道如何让这种公司承担责任。

And I'm that has, like, a deep kind of social roots, like, that that is evolutionary baked into us, that we know how we can hold a person accountable as a community, but not how we can hold this this kind of corporation accountable.

从最纯粹的意义上说，这就是影响者营销本应成为的样子。对吧？比如，C罗有4000万粉丝，而皇马只有12万。或者马斯克有数千万粉丝，而SpaceX和特斯拉的Facebook账号被他前几年决定删除或怎样。所以，就是这样。

That's what, at its purest sense, influencer marketing was supposed to be. Right? Like, the fact that Cristiano Ronaldo has 40,000,000 followers, but Real Madrid only has 12. Or that Elon Musk has, like, tens of millions of followers, and SpaceX and Tesla got their Facebooks deleted or whatever it was that he decided to do to them the other year. So, like yeah.

人们追随人，而不是追随事物。接下来谈谈幸福，书的后半部分。Naval说幸福是习得的。你同意吗？因为大多数人认为幸福是一种状态，而不是一种技能。

People follow people that don't follow things. Moving on to happiness, second half of the book. Naval says that happiness is learned. Do you agree? Because most people would think that happiness is a state, not a skill.

是的。我认为这是一个让很多人不快乐的误解。你可以从人们谈论幸福的方式中听出来。他们会说，那让你快乐了吗？或者我只想让你快乐。

Yeah. I think that's a that's a misconception that leaves a lot of people unhappy. And and you you hear it in how people talk about happiness, you know. They say like, did that make you happy? Or I just wanna make you happy.

当你看着这些词并思考它们时，“让你快乐”是一个多么扭曲的概念。几乎所有关于幸福的对话都围绕着外部环境。比如，你得到这个东西快乐吗？如果你得到这个，你会快乐吗？这不是把它看作不仅仅是一个选择。

And like, make you happy when you look at those words and think about them is such a fucked up kind of concept. And and almost all conversational relations to happiness are about external circumstances. Like, are you happy you got this thing? Will you be happy if you get this thing? Like, it is not looking at it as not not just a choice.

选择是幸福的起点，但更是一种技能。明白吗？你不能只选择快乐一次，而是要不断学习幸福的技巧，反复练习直至这些技能深入骨髓。就像运动员训练那样，就像创业那样。你需要通过重复练习来培养这些幸福习惯和视角，让它几乎成为一种本能——积极看待事物，记住幸福是内在的，源于珍惜已有之物，而非不断添加新欲望，也不是将快乐推迟到某个成就或新事物到来之后。

Like, a choice is is the beginning of it, but a skill. Right? You you have to choose to be happy not just once, you have to choose to learn the skills of happiness and over and over and over again to pound those skills into you. Just like you train like an athlete, just like you build a business. Like, you have to put reps into building these habits and these perspectives of happiness and almost making it a reflex to look at things positively to remember that happiness is an internal, you know, is derived from appreciating what you have, from not adding new desires, from not postponing your happiness until some accomplishment or some, you know, new thing you get.

这其实是允许自己在当下就为已有的一切感到快乐，并且持续这样做。这很难，真的很难。所以它不仅是每个瞬间的选择，更是培养持续做出这种选择的能力。

It it is giving yourself permission to be happy in this moment with what you have and doing it constantly. And it's hard. It's really hard. And so it is not just a choice in each moment, but it is a skill to develop the ability to keep making that choice over and over again.

那我们该如何培养幸福感呢？

How can we cultivate our happiness then?

是的。书里列出了很多具体习惯，可能是最实操层面的方法。

Yeah. There's there's a lot to there's a lot of habits kind of listed out in the book that that is maybe the most tactical kind of level of it.

确实如此。

It is.

我立刻想到几个例子，比如有个方法让我印象深刻：每当阳光洒在身上，就抬头微笑。这虽是小事，但只要你花一秒钟感受阳光的温暖，抬头望天，与我们的能量源建立片刻连接，就能发现完美瞬间。从技术层面说，比如别设闹钟，少用日程表——这些外部时间控制会把你拉出当下。如果身体需要继续睡眠，如果还没准备好起床，没有闹钟催促的时刻，或许会更幸福。

And there's a there's a few, off the top of my head that like one that stuck with me is, whenever you see the sun, feel the sun on your skin, like, look up and smile. Right? It's such a small tiny thing, but like, you will find a beautiful perfect moment if you just take a second to like, feel how good the sun feels and look up at it and just like, have this moment of connection with like our energy source. You know, on a like, more tech level, like, don't set an alarm clock, minimize your use of calendar and those are things those are ways that like those are external controls of your time that pull you out of the present moment, know. If your body needs to keep sleeping, if you don't want to get out of bed yet, like if you don't have an alarm clock pushing you out of bed, maybe you'll be a little happier in that moment.

你会注意到被单的触感，房间的温度，深呼吸一口。让心灵停留在当下，或许就是珍惜最微小的事物。我记得这个观点被Nemal转发过，但不确定是否是他的原创。

You'll appreciate like how the sheets feel. You'll appreciate the temperature of the room. You'll take a deep breath. Like keeping your mind where you are is is maybe and appreciating, you know, the smallest thing. This wasn't I think Nemal retweeted this, but I don't know if it was an original nabalism.

但我真的超爱这个观点，因为它用一个我每天都会看到的日常事物完美触发思考——如果连一杯咖啡都无法让你快乐，那么一艘游艇同样不能。所以每次我倒咖啡、捧着温热的杯子闻香气时，都会想：此刻这杯咖啡让我感到幸福。而我知道，如果我能为一杯咖啡感到快乐，那么我对任何事物都能保持这种幸福感。

But like, I I I love it because it's got a perfect trigger with a thing that I look at every day. If you can't be happy with a cup of coffee, you won't be happy with a yacht. And so I have this this thought every time I, like, pour a cup of coffee and hold this kind of warm thing and smell it. And I'm like, this is making me happy in this moment. And I know that if I can be happy with a cup of coffee, I can be happy with with anything.

这太棒了兄弟。我们来聊聊欲望吧，从Naval那里学到关于欲望的关键洞见是什么？

That's awesome, man. Let's talk about desire. What's the key insight to do with desire to learn from Naval?

对，我们先从他最浓缩的格言开始：欲望是你与自己签订的契约，约定在得到想要的东西之前保持不快乐。这话听着简单，'哦懂了'，但实际应用到每个欲望时却很难记住。我们本能地太快产生新欲望，逛商店时很容易就会想：我要这个...

Yeah. We'll we'll start with, like, the most dense aphorism, which is desire is a contract you make to be unhappy until you get what you want, which is an easy thing to hear and be like, oh, okay. And a very difficult thing to remember to apply to everything that you desire. We we so instinctively pick up new desires so quickly. It's just really easy to look around us and walk through a store like, I want that.

我要那个...还想要那个...特别是在社交媒体上看别人。刷二十分钟Instagram后我就会想：靠，我既想成为天才脱口秀演员，又想拥有巨石强森的身材，还得具备安东尼·波登的厨艺。

I want that. I want that. You know, to look at other people, especially on social. You know, you scroll through your Instagram and in twenty minutes, I'm like, shit. I really wanna be a genius stand up comedian who looks like The Rock and cooks like Anthony Bourdain.

而且我觉得没理由不能同时拥有这三样。于是我就决定在达成这些目标前都不快乐——可这些目标分别需要别人投入毕生精力在不同领域。这就要回到那个核心观点：不要和自己签订'不快乐契约'，尤其是为那些根本他娘不现实的目标。所以正如Naval所说，你应该把欲望限制在极少数量，一次只专注一个。比如真要创业，就全情投入创业这个欲望。

And there's no reason that I shouldn't be able to have all three. And I just decide to be unhappy until I've accomplished all of those goals that all those people spend their entire lives doing in completely different directions. And and it takes, like, going back to that idea that you don't wanna make a contract with yourself to be unhappy until you get something, especially if it is a wildly fucking unrealistic thing to ever to ever get. So knowing that that you really should have a limited number of desires like Naval says, just one at a time. You know, if you're gonna if you're really focused on building your company, focus on building your company and and like allow yourself that desire.

但对其他已拥有的要知足，努力接受所有其他现状，别同时堆砌健身目标、旅行目标等等。一次只处理一个欲望，尽量减少其他。这应该更容易做到——毕竟比起透支消费、负债、同时追逐多个目标，消除某个欲望肯定更省钱。那些杂念会消耗你的精力、干劲，分散你对真正重要之事的专注力。优先排序很难，年轻人确实更容易产生更多欲望。

But but be contented with everything else that you have and really work hard to accept every other circumstance and not pile on, you know, your your incredible, you know, fitness goals or goals to travel and goals to like just take one desire at a time, and work to minimize the rest. You know, it's it's so much easier it should be easier. It is definitely cheaper to eliminate a desire than it is to, you know, overspend, to go into debt, to to try to like run-in too many directions at once. And those other desires are likely to kind of cost you more of your your energy, your mojo, your focus on that one thing that you actually most desire and prioritizing those is really hard. And I think, you know, the younger you are, the easier it is to take on more desires.

因为你们面前有更多可能性，但缺乏明确方向和经验来确定真正想要什么。所以会对各种事物感兴趣，同时追求多个目标，欲望清单越来越长。我有个假设：为什么70岁人群通常是幸福感最高的？或许正是因为他们真正学会了珍惜已有的一切。

You have more possibilities in front of you. You you have a little less direction and track record of like what you know you want for sure. And so you're interested in all these different things and you pursue all these different things at once and you have this huge multitude of desire. And I think, one one of my hypotheses for this interesting fact that like 70 year olds are usually the most happy cohort of people. And I wonder how much of that is like, they really have learned to appreciate what they have.

他们真正感到自在的是做自己，没有太多欲望。你懂吗？他们已经学会了知足和感恩的技能，珍惜所拥有的一切，而不是不断追逐下一个目标、下一个、再下一个。他们只是活在当下，享受与谁在一起、在做什么的时光。

They really feel comfortable with with who they are and they don't have a ton of desires. You know? They they are are have learned the skill of contentedness and appreciation for the for the things that they have, and they're not constantly looking forward to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. They're just living in the moment and and enjoying, you know, what who they're with and what they're doing.

我们在此面临的问题，正如我之前提到的。实现物质欲望比放弃它们更容易。我长久以来一直在思考，你特定的生活模式轨迹早已由长辈们铺就。看看你祖父，看看他喜欢做的事情。

The problem that we come up against here is what I brought up earlier on. It is easier to achieve your material desires than it is to renounce them. And I've been thinking about this for ages that the trajectory of your particular modus operandi within life has already been laid out by your elders. Look to your granddad. Look to the things that your granddad enjoys doing.

你知道，比如周六下午边看足球边喝杯好酒，和朋友去酒吧，和祖母带着狗散步之类的。那些简单的乐趣。我们或许会过度浪漫化这些，但无法否认的是，只有当你经历过那些之后才能达到这种境界。比如，在拥有五辆法拉利之后，你的下一辆车更容易是一辆破旧的家庭用车，因为你会觉得，法拉利那套我已经体验过了。

You know, a nice glass of wine while he watches the football on a Saturday afternoon and going to the pub with his friends and a walk with your grandma with the dog and stuff like that. The simple pleasures. And we we, I think, can over romanticize that, but it is impossible to pass those away from is that only able to be achieved when you've already gone and done the things. It's significantly easier for your next car to be something that some banged up family mobile after five Ferraris because you're like, do know what it is? I've already done the Ferrari thing.

那其实并不重要。不幸的是，这也与我认为Naval对我们许多人如此有吸引力的原因之一相关——他在现实世界中的成功是我们都想尝试模仿和实现的。问题在于，一个不成功的Naval本可以更准确地运用欲望克制的格言，因为我们无法指责他‘说这话轻松是因为你已实现了所有物质追求’，但我们不会尊重他，因为他并未在现实世界中真正取得成就。这说得通吗？

That doesn't really matter. And this also, unfortunately, ties into one of the reasons that I think Naval's so seductive to a lot of us, that his real world success is something that we all want to try and emulate and achieve. And the problem with that is that a unsuccessful version of Naval who would be able to use the desire contract aphorism more accurately because we couldn't call him out for only saying that's easy because you've achieved all the things you want to achieve materially, we wouldn't respect because he hadn't actually managed to make stuff manifest in the real world. Does that make sense?

有道理。不过我不确定。我有点兴趣，想稍微反驳一下，因为我认为‘实现物质成功比消除它们更容易’可能对某些事情成立，但它没有考虑到享乐适应陷阱。所以，也许获得一辆宝马确实更容易。

It does. I don't know. I'm I'm interested. I wanna push back on it a little bit because I think I think the, like, it's easier to achieve your material successes than to eliminate them is is maybe it's probably true for some things, but it also kind of it doesn't take into account the trap of the, like, hedonic treadmill. And so, you know, it maybe it's easier to achieve, you know, getting a really nice getting a BMW.

但一旦有了宝马，我就会想要法拉利。有了法拉利，又会想要私人飞机。有了私人飞机，就想要运动队。有了运动队，就他妈想要一个国家。这种欲望根本没有理由停止。

But then if I have a BMW, I'm gonna want a Ferrari. And if I have a Ferrari, I'm gonna want a private jet. And if I have a private jet, I want a sports team. If I have a sports team, want a fucking country. Like, there's no reason for that to stop.

如果你任由这种欲望滚雪球般增长，到了某个时刻，学会克制反而更容易——特别是当你意识到自己所走且满足的道路不会带来巨额财富时。对很多人来说，比如我是一名教师，热爱教书，最多一年挣几十万美元。即使兼职创业，我也永远买不起运动队，而这完全没问题。

And if you just let it keep snowballing, like, at some point, it is easier to learn how to especially if you realize that the path that you are on and that you are happy with is not going to lead to enormous incredible wealth. Like, for plenty of people, I'm sure, you know, I'm a teacher. I love being a teacher. I'm gonna make maybe at best couple 100 or, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a year. Like, even if I start a business on the side, I'm just never gonna buy a sports team and that's perfectly okay.

因此现在，我必须学会控制自己的欲望。我认为这本书的重要之处在于它揭示了幸福的两半：你拥有多少和你想要多少，并将两者结合起来。就像摩根·豪塞尔在你的播客中做得非常出色那样，他说这不是关于你赚多少或想要多少，而是关于两者之间的关系，并理解这些杠杆是相连的。我不在乎你的手段是什么，只要你的生活低于它们。只要你的欲望与生活方式相符，你就会快乐。

And so now, I have to learn to control my desires. And and I think that's what's so important about this book is that it has the two halves of happiness are are how much you have and how much you want and combining those, I think like, Morgan Housel on your podcast actually did an incredible job with this. He's like, it's not about how much you make, it's not about how much you want, it's about the relationship between the two and understanding that those levers are connected. I don't care what your means are, you're living below them. Like, you're gonna be happy as long as your desires are in line with your lifestyle.

因此，控制这两件事并适当调整它们，以便你能找到幸福的状态。再次强调，如果你对一杯咖啡都不满足，那么拥有一艘游艇也不会让你快乐。如果你在丰田车里不快乐，那么在法拉利里也不会快乐。你只会想要再加一辆兰博基尼。我不知道该怎么跟你说。

And so controlling those two things and kind of moving them around so that you can find yourself in a state of happiness. Again, like, if you're not happy with a cup of coffee, you're not gonna be happy with a yacht. If not you're happy in a Toyota, you won't be happy in a Ferrari. You're just gonna wanna add the Lambo. Like, I I don't know what to tell you.

所以，如果你不把欲望视为不快乐的根源，那么无论你是否得到你想要的，都很难跨越那个障碍，因为你只会跳到下一个欲望。

So like, if you don't see that if you don't see that desire as the source of an unhappiness, it's it's gonna be tough to kind of get over that hump, whether you get what you want or not because you'll just leap to the next desire.

他们说真正的地狱是当你遇见你本可以成为的那个人。但似乎在这种情况下，真正的地狱是当你想象你本可以成为的那个人可能拥有的一切。

They say that true hell is when the person that you are meets the person that you could have been. But it seems like in this situation, it's more like true hell is when the person who you are imagines all of the stuff that the person who you could have been could have had.

是的。我认为这可能是对你的一种激励，让你发挥全部潜能。但这也是一种心理陷阱，如果你想象如果一切顺利，每次转折都走运，每件事都全力以赴，你的生活会怎样，那会让你非常不快乐。这简直是痛苦的配方。

Yeah. I I think that's, you know, that's a good, maybe, motivational quote for you to, you know, be all you can be. But it also is the sort of mental trap that can leave you, like, deeply unhappy if you imagine, you know, what would have gone how your life would have been if everything would have worked out perfectly and you had gotten lucky at every turn and worked your face off at every single thing. Like, that's a recipe for misery.

我同意。但这是不是因为大多数人对自己的全部潜力有误解？如果你完全接受纳瓦尔的哲学，那么你的全部潜力应该是尽可能少地依赖物质，同时尽可能实现自我、活在当下并感到快乐。所以，奇怪的是，你几乎会为自己的物质主义水平感到不满。因此，物质主义本身会成为你说‘我的潜力是拥有比这更少的物质主义，而不是更多东西’的对象。

I agree. But is that not just due to most people having a misaligned idea of what their full potential could be? If you were to fully imbibe the Naval philosophy, then your full potential would be someone who is as actualized and present and happy with as little as possible. So convert, in a bizarre way, you would almost be upset at your own level of materialism. So the materialism itself would be the thing that you say my potential is to have less materialism than this, not more stuff.

是的。我认为这是将物质主义与你的成就和满足感分开，将你的内心状态与外在状态分离。因为很难想象这两者的最大化版本能够共存。纳瓦尔的微妙之处在于，他不想成为最成功的自己，而是想成为统计上最有可能成功的那个人。

Yeah. I think that's, you know, separating materialism from your accomplishments and your your contentedness, you you know, your inner state from your outer state. Because it's it's difficult to imagine a maximized version of both of those kind of as as coexisting, I think. Naval's, like, nuance here, which I think is interesting, is that he he doesn't want to be the most successful version of himself. He wants to be the one that is statistically likely to become the most successful.

所以这有点像，如果有……那是什么

And so it it's a little like if there's What's

那是什么意思？

that mean?

你看，如果有一千个Nivals在一千个不同的宇宙里，他希望以这样一种方式生活和经营事业，让这一千人中的999个最终都能成功。就像你去赌场，一次又一次地把所有赌注都押在双零上，如果有1000万人这么做，其中一个人会变得非常成功，这只是一个极其简化的比喻。但大多数人平均而言会损失惨重，过得不开心。因此，他做决策和生活规划的方式是：我不想拼命工作，不想成为最成功的自己。

You know, if there's a thousand Nivals in a thousand different universes, he wants to live his life and and build his businesses in such a way that 999 of those thousand eventually become successful. You know, if you if you go to the casino and put it all on double zero over and over and over and over again and 10,000,000 people are able to do it, one of those guys is gonna get incredibly successful, you know, just to use a very simplified metaphor. But most of those people and those people on average are gonna decimated and be unhappy. And so his kind of, MO around how he makes his decisions and how he kind of architects his life is like, I don't wanna work as hard as possible. I don't wanna be as successful, the most successful version of myself.

我想做那些能以最小风险、最少波动和最低投入获得最大成功的事情。我想要最高的投入产出比。用他的话来说，就是不想一生都在工作。他现在热爱所做的事情——创办企业、投资，并将其视为一种艺术形式持续进行。

I wanna do the things that allow me to get kind of the most successful with the least risk, the least variance, and the least actually, least input. Like, I I want the highest ratio of of input to output that I can get. I don't wanna spend my life working is what he would say. Like, he loves what he does now. He loves starting businesses and investing and does it, continues to do it as an art form.

我不想每天工作二十小时，做那些我并不一定想做的事来达成某个结果，而是找到他热爱的事情，并以一种在统计学上，如果通过蒙特卡洛模拟他众多人生轨迹，大多数情况下能带来某种非凡但非极端成功的方式去做。他不愿为追求极端成功而承担巨大的下行风险。

I don't want to spend twenty hours a day working, doing things that I don't necessarily want to do in order to achieve some outcome but finding a thing that he loves to do and doing it in a way that statistically across a wide set of his lives, if you were to play them out, you know, on a Monte Carlo simulation, would very often or most often lead to some level some outlier level of success, but not an extreme outlier. He's not willing to take huge huge downside risk in order to get that extreme extreme outside.

我认为这是对‘拼命硬干’心态的一种美妙对立，很多人包括我们自己都容易陷入这种陷阱。可悲的是，二三十岁时让我们脱颖而出的特质，到了四五十岁却需要努力摆脱。有一段时期你必须长时间埋头苦干，打磨技艺——无论是学习未来能用的技能，还是在行业中建立真实性和影响力，即使如我们所说完全契合且清醒。但无法回避的是，成就等于强度乘以时间，这是卡尔·纽波特的工作量公式。

I think that's a lovely antithesis to the hustle and grind mentality that I think a lot of people can fall down the trap of. And we all do as well. It's sad and unfortunate that the thing which often sets us apart in our twenties and thirties is the thing that we need to try and cast away and lose as an attachment in our forties and fifties. Like, you there's there's a period where you've got to get your nose and stick it on the grindstone for a long time. You need to grind away on your craft, whether that be learning the skills that you can leverage later in life, building up the authenticity and the amount of clout and notoriety that you have within an industry, even if that's as fully and beautifully aligned and actualized as we've been talking about here with all of the requisite amounts of presentness, you can't get around the fact that it's a function of intensity times time, the Cal Newport work done, equation.

如果你以更高强度超额工作，就能碾压他人，这就是规则。但我确实认为这种对‘拼命硬干’的反叛极其重要，值得人们理解。尤其当我们谈论的是一位公认极具智慧的人，他和巴菲特、芒格一样，过着由惊人自由驱动的生活。他们看似总在工作，只因那是他们的主动选择。

If you do more work, if you outwork everyone at a higher intensity, then you piss all over them, and that's the way that's the way that it works. But, yeah, I I I really do think that that antithesis to the hustle and grind mentality is super important. I think it's really, really nice for people to to understand. And as well, this is coming from someone that we both believe is incredibly wise, that he enjoys, as does Buffett, as does Munger, a life that is driven by ridiculous amounts of freedom. And the only reason that they look like they're working all the time is that that's what they choose to do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

摩根·豪塞尔对财富的定义是：财富让你能够随心所欲地做你想做的事，在你想做的时候，与你想在一起的人，想持续多久就多久，且无人能干涉。这就是财富赋予你的能力，我认为这种程度的自由是我们所有人都能向往的极致。你可以通过多种途径实现这一点，比如降低物质欲望。因为如果你降低了对物质满足的阈值，就能以更少的工作量达到目标，这意味着你有更多时间投入到不仅仅是必须做，而是可以选择做的事情上。

Morgan Housel's definition of what wealth gets you is wealth allows you to do what you want, when you want, with who you want, for as long as you want, and no one gets to tell you otherwise. That is what wealth allows you to do, and that level of freedom is something that I think maximally we can all aspire to. And you can get there in multiple different ways. You can get there by reducing down the material desire. Because if you reduce down the threshold at which materially you will be happy, then you can afford to work less to get there, which means that you have more time to spend on stuff, not just stuff that you have to do, but stuff that you get to do.

接着，如果你能利用杠杆效应和其他工具来解放自己，摆脱常规的激烈竞争，那么你就能始终做自己想做的事，因为工作已成为你的自主选择——毕竟你已自行定义了它。

And then if you can use the leverage and all of the other, tools to free yourself, liberate yourself from sort of the typical rat race, then you also get to be able to do what you want to do all the time because work is the thing that you get to choose because you've defined it yourself.

是的。我觉得这有点像是…稍微岔开话题，不知道你是否研究过那种财务独立提前退休的运动？

Yeah. And I think this is sort of a a kind of to take the side road here, I don't know if you have studied the kind of financial independent early retirement movement at all.

没有。没有。我在网上看到过。

No. No. I've seen it. I've seen it online.

这真是个有趣的…你看，如果人们现在开始思考如何培养量入为出的能力，理解并拉大收入与支出的差距，从非高消费活动中获得满足感，降低物质欲望。这方面…我不确定。Reddit上有相关讨论。这个领域的开山之作是雅各布·菲斯克的《极端提前退休》，这本书简直疯狂。

It's a it's a really interesting, you know, if people are asking the question now of kind of like, okay, how do you work on that skill of living below your means and understanding like getting a big gap between what you're earning and what you're spending and finding fulfillment and things that don't, that aren't hugely costly, reducing your material desires. That is kind of a I don't know. There's there's Reddits on it. There are The book that's kind of the forefather of this is Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Fisker. It's a it's a nutcase book.

但它极端到即使你按普通人标准回调，仍会远超大多数人。引领我入坑的博客是'金钱胡子先生'，这是个超棒的博客，博主是个幽默的家伙，曾做了十年软件工程师。

But it is like so extreme that when you dial that back to like a normal person, you still end up way, way ahead of most people. The blog that kinda pulled me down this is, mister Money Mustache. It's a great blog. He's a hilarious guy. He was a software engineer for like ten years.

他的个人储蓄率，我想大概达到了60%或70%。这个概念就是，比如你年收入8万美元，但只靠3万美元生活。组建家庭后，你们会一起散步，可能只保留一辆车且很少使用，主要骑自行车出行。

Got his personal savings rate, I think to like 60 or 70%. And it's this idea that like you're living on you know, if you're making $80,000 a year, you're living on $30,000 a year. So have a family. So, you know, taking walks, you just either only have one car and barely use it. You mostly ride bikes.

你们可以玩桌游，自酿啤酒，用野餐代替外出享用百元大餐。要知道，用不多的金钱也能过上幸福充实的生活，这与物质财富的积累毫无关联。他做了十年软件工程师，通过储蓄和投资积累了足够净资产，于是在30或31岁就退休了。他说靠着积蓄就能快乐度过余生，虽然仍会做些想做的事，但已获得了完美的自由。

You know, you play board games, brew your own beer if you want to, have picnics instead of going out to $100 dinners. You know, like, there are ways to live a very happy and fulfilling life on not that much money that is not correlated at all with increased material possessions. And he worked for ten years as a software engineer and built up enough net worth through his savings and his investments that he retired. So he retired at 30 or 31 and he's like, I can live for the rest of my life very happily on what I have saved up and he continues to work. He continues to kind of do things that he wants to do but it is that perfect freedom.

通往这种自由的道路很多。就像我提及这场运动的初衷——你可以拼命工作赚大钱，让欲望永远追不上你的财力；也可以选择出家为僧。而对于普通中产阶层来说，这种'财务独立提前退休'运动已经很好地探索出了中间道路。我建议大家去了解这个领域，如果感兴趣不妨深入探索。

There's a lot of paths to that freedom. It's kind of like the point of bringing up this other movement. You can try to work really hard and earn a ton of money so that like you no matter what your desires are, you can never outspend them. You can go, you know, be a monk or and and that kind of like, you know, middle ground for middle class with normal jobs is is really well explored, think, in this kind of financial independence early retirement, movement. So I I encourage people to go, like, check that out and go down that rabbit hole if that's something that they're interested in.

这太酷了。我听说过他，但从未读过他的作品，只知道名字。我想见识下这位'金钱胡子侠'，这才是我想看的。

That's really cool. I've heard of him before, but I've never read never read any of his stuff. Just the name. I wanna I wanna see the man the man money man mustache. That's what I wanna see.

没错。他玩得很开心，无情嘲讽那些拥有豪车、不必要财物的人，嘲笑他们认为这些能带来幸福。他塑造了一个滑稽的角色形象。当然，凭借专业知识和影响力，他建立的这个博客每年能赚几十万美元。

Yeah. He he has great fun with it. He's just ruthlessly mocking people with expensive cars and, you know, unnecessary possessions and things that people think are gonna lead to happiness but aren't. And he made a hilarious character out of it. And, of course, because he was, you know, using his specific knowledge and accountability and leverage, he built this incredible blog that makes hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

所以他本可以彻底退休，然后...

And so he could have retired all that and and

结果比预期更富有，现在拼命想散尽家财。

Far richer than he ever wanted to be. Desperately trying to give his money away.

是的。因为他在做一件对他来说既有趣又完全真实的事，而且他投入了极大的热情，很多人因此感到兴奋并追随他。我认为这是将个人产品化的又一绝佳范例。而他是在无意间做到这一点的，没有任何刻意的意图。

Yeah. Because he was doing something that was fun to him and totally authentic and he did it with a lot of energy and a lot of people kind got excited about it and and fell in with him. I think it's another incredible example of of productizing yourself. And he did that accidentally, you know, with with no intention really whatsoever.

Naval有哪些三个观点或名言对你处世方式影响最大？如果要列出最具启发性的三句话，或是给你带来最大影响的名言，会是哪些？

What are three insights or quotes from Naval which have had the biggest impact on how you operate in the world? If you do a top of the pops rundown of the the the three most insightful quotes are the ones that have had the biggest impact on you.

嗯，我不敢保证能一字不差地复述，但我会尽力。我认为最让我印象深刻的是这个观念：在宇宙的宏大尺度下，我们存在的时间如此短暂，而我们对发生在自己身上的事的解读完全由自己掌控。关键在于——当你感到不快乐时，当你没有选择积极看待发生在你身上的事时，这对任何人都没有好处。不快乐并不会让你过得更好。

Yeah. I I can't promise I'll do these word for word, but I'll try. I I think the one that's been sitting on top of my head the most is is just this idea that we are here for such a short amount of time in the grand scheme of the universe, and we are entirely in control of our perception of the things that are happening to us. And and here's the the key piece is that any moment that you are not happy, that you're not choosing to interpret what's happening to you positively, you're not doing anyone any favors. You are not better off for being unhappy.

你周围的人也不会因为你的不快乐而受益。我不完全清楚这种想法的来源，但我们确实有种根深蒂固的观念，认为我们不应该感到快乐——在取得某些成就、为自己或他人（雇主、伴侣、家人）交出某些成果之前，我们不允许自己感受快乐。但其实你完全可以允许自己快乐的同时继续取得进步。不知道其他人是否和我一样觉得这很难做到。

The people around you aren't better off for you being unhappy. I think I I don't exactly know where it comes from, but we certainly have this, this thing built into us that we feel like we are not supposed to feel happy. We're not supposed to allow ourselves to feel happiness until we've accomplished something, until we've delivered some result, whether it's for ourselves or for someone else, for our employer, for our partner, for our family. And that it is possible to kind of allow yourself happiness and to make progress at the same time. Like, I don't know if if other that is as hard for other people as it is for me.

这可能源于我的运动员背景，总觉得要皱着眉头全力以赴，力量由此而生，这样才能更拼搏。艺术家可能更擅长感受当下的心流与创造力，觉得必须快乐才能创作，而非必须痛苦才能突破。这是个非常有趣的观点。在财富方面，关键在于你必须建立或购买企业股权——当我真正把这点放在首位时，发现实现途径其实很多。对吧？

And maybe that's like the athlete in me that came from, you know, like, you just gotta like put your eyebrows down and and put your back into it and like strength comes from that and like that will push you harder. Artists may be better at kind of feeling flow and creativity in the moment and feeling like they have to be happy in order to work instead of being unhappy in order to prevail. But I think that's a really interesting idea. On the wealth side, just the fact that you have to build or buy equity in a business, that really I I realized when you put that at the forefront, there's a lot of ways to do it. Right?

我从小接受的教育是：努力工作，找个好职位，把钱全存进401k退休账户，做指数投资——就是杰克·博格尔的那套方法论。这确实是获得企业股权的方式：当你投资股市时，你实际上是在购买众多企业的股权，让它们为你复利分红。在小企业领域，我们每个人本质上都是一人公司，持有100%股份，问题在于你是否会采取行动让这份股权增值。

You know, I was kind of raised with the like, work hard, get a good job, put it all in a retirement account, a four zero one k, index it, you know, the Jack Bogle playbook. And that is a way to build equity in a business. Like, when you buy into the stock market, you're you that is a you know, you're buying equity in a ton of different businesses and allowing that to compound and pay dividends for you. There is also the small business world where we are all basically a small business of one. We own a 100% of the shares and whether or not you're gonna go do something with that to make that more valuable.

在硅谷的世界里，你可以选择附带股票期权的工作，努力进入有潜力的公司并争取更高职位，获得更多期权——这也是获取企业股权的方式。当你把这视为目标时，实现途径其实很多。但关键是要明白这才是目标，而不仅仅是追求更高的时薪之类。这些大概就是目前影响我最深的两大领域观点。

In In the Silicon Valley world, you've got, you know, take a job with stock options and you try to kind of work your way into companies that are gonna be valuable and positions that are higher ups and you get more stock options and that is a way to build or buy equity in a company. You know, there's a lot of ways to accomplish that when you see that as the goal. But but understanding that that is a goal, not necessarily just a higher hourly income or something like that. Those are kind of, you know, maybe one from each world that are sitting with me right now.

你还有第三个例子吗？最近有没有遇到他其他让你觉得有点与众不同的东西？

Have you got a third one? Have you got anything else that you've come across from him recently that you think is, is maybe a little bit different?

这个例子不太常被提及。我觉得人们未必像我认为的那样，把Naval看作既幽默又有魅力的人。他性格内向，很少做演讲之类的活动。但魅力其实是一种能同时展现真诚与积极态度的能力。

This one, isn't talked about very much. I I don't think don't think Naval is necessarily thought of as as as, like, funny and charismatic as as I think he is. You know, he's introverted. He doesn't do a ton of talks or anything like that. But there is one that charisma is the ability to be both positive and or or to project love and positivity kind of at the same time or honesty.

抱歉。魅力是指能够同时传递真诚与积极的能力。这几乎总是可以做到的，对吧？所以你不必用尖锐的事实去打击别人。

Sorry. The charisma is the ability to project honesty and positivity at the same time. And that is almost always possible. Right? So you don't have to tell someone harsh truths about themselves.

你不必用消极、对立或刻薄的方式呈现真相。我认为现在某种程度上流行那种角色——总是说出残酷真相，因为能戳破别人的幻想而被认为聪明能干。但人们其实不喜欢这样，虽然在电视上效果不错，看着可能也有趣。

You don't have to present the truth in a negative, contradictory, harsh fashion. And I think that is somewhat in vogue, right? There's always the character who's like delivering harsh truths, you know, and like thought of as smart and competent because they're able to like pop people's bubble. And that just people don't like that. You know, it it plays well on TV and it's it's maybe like funny to watch.

但如果你把这种角色带入现实生活，就很难建立积极的人际关系，也难以与他人顺畅合作。所以同时展现真诚与积极是我正在修炼的课题。这与活在当下并不矛盾——消极不会带来任何好处，而你完全可以既积极又诚实。

But if you take that character, take that as your character into real life, like it's gonna be really hard to build positive relationships and to, kind of work smoothly with other people. So, projecting honesty and positivity at the same time is something that, certainly I'm working on. And it is certainly tied with the, like, there's no reason not to be happy with each individual moment. You're not doing anyone any favors by being negative, and you can be positive and honest at the same time.

我认为这是我对男性主义、男权运动和红药丸运动的普遍问题——绝大多数高举这些旗帜的人听起来都像愤世嫉俗的老头。兄弟，我不想成为你那样的人。每个男人心底都好奇成为Dan Bilzerian是什么体验（尽管可能让你发疯），但至少在公众形象上，Dan虽然商业上快破产了，但他既诚实又积极。

I think this is one of the problems I have with the, like, meninism, men's rights, red pill movement overall, that the vast, vast, vast majority of the guys that fly that flag super hard just sound like bitter old men. And, like, bro, like, I don't wanna be you. I don't want to be you. There's a part of every guy that, even if it would do your head in, wants to know what it would be like to be Dan Bilzerian for a day. But, like, Dan is, I think, probably fairly not in his business dealings, actually, because he's about to go bust, but, at least with the way that he puts himself across, he's fairly honest, and he's positive.

懂吗？即便他通过CBD公司之类骗了别人两千万美元，也得保持积极形象。我得声明——可能需要找律师保护自己。如果节目结束后你能帮我这个忙就太好了。我刚想到你提到的Naval很少做演讲这点...

You know? Like, it's gotta be positive to scam people out of $20,000,000 for a a CBD company or whatever it is that he's been doing. I am not a like, I'm gonna have to get some lawyers or something to protect me. So if you can if you have if you can help me at the end of this podcast, that'll be wonderful. I've been thinking about there was something that you just brought up there, which is that Naval doesn't do a ton of talks.

那他兄弟卡玛兰呢？我一直在推特上不停地@他。其实这是假话，我就@过他几次。但我知道他现在基本处于半隐退状态，自从罗根那期节目后，他就开始远离媒体活动，算是给自己放了个长假。

How about his brother, Kamalan? I've tweeted him incessantly. That's a lie. I've tweeted him a couple of times about it. But I know that he's basically on apart from his own stuff, he's basically on a sabbatical, from doing sort of press ever since the Rogan episode.

我在想他是否意识到这是个多么聪明的策略——通过减少纳瓦尔的公开露面来维持市场需求飙升，这样他选择发布的每分钟内容价值就会持续上涨？嗯。

And I wonder whether he realizes how smart of a tactic that is to reduce the supply of Naval so that the demand continues to skyrocket and that the amount of the the value per minute of the stuff that he does choose to put out continues to go up? Mhmm.

是啊。我不确定这是否刻意为之。但你看他做的每件事都保持着极高水准。而且...要知道，他并不是在打造媒体公司，我觉得他做这些更多是为了我们，而非他自己。

Yeah. I I don't know how deliberate it is. But, I mean, you can see in in everything that he does is a very high quality bar. And and, you know, he's not building a media company. He's doing this for us, I think, you know, more more than himself.

他本质上只是在公开学习，并稍作回馈罢了。说真的，他能做这么多我们已经很幸运了。要知道，很多同等或更成功的人，根本不会像他这样花时间教学、给予和分享观点。我个人就从他分享的内容中获益良多，真希望更多人能抽空做类似的事。比如雷·达里奥，我知道有些人会专门研究他职业生涯的那个章节...

All all he's doing really here is kind of, like, learning in public and giving back a little bit. And, yeah, I'm You know, we're lucky he does as much as he does, think. There's I think plenty of people who are equally or more successful that don't do nearly as much kind of teaching and giving and sharing of their perspectives as he does. And as, you know, I've benefited a lot from from what he shared and I wish more people would kind of take the time to do it. Ray Dalio, you know, I know there's there's a chapter of careers where people kind of turn to that that piece.

但这很辛苦，明白吗？提炼毕生所学需要耗费巨大精力。雷·达里奥为《原则》这本书和他的企业准则投入了无数时间。纳瓦尔肯定也为播客和推特风暴之类付出过心血。而这个项目让我感到充实的地方在于，我得以实现自己的愿望——

But it's hard work, you know? It's it's a lot of effort to distill what you've done. And, you know, I know Ray Dalio put many, many hours of effort into into principles both for his business and and for the book. You know, I know Naval certainly put work into the podcast and the tweet storm and and things like that. But and that's what was kind of fulfilling about this project is that I got to manifest a a thing that I wanted.

我一直希望纳瓦尔能出本书，后来发现所有原始素材其实都已存在，而我可以替他完成这项工作——毕竟我觉得他自己可能永远都不会写，他也不介意。所以看到这个项目成真特别满足。我真正想要的是纳瓦尔的原则体系，而现在它就以这种形式诞生了。

Like, I wanted Naval to write a book, and just realizing that all of the raw material was out there and that I could do the work for him knowing that I didn't think he he probably ever was and that he was fine with it. So this is this is fulfilling to kinda see this come to life. I really wanted the principles of Naval and and this is kinda what it turned into.

兄弟我敢说这感觉超棒！就像人们常说的：制作你想听的播客，写你想读的书，打造你会买的产品。这是确保你持续创造符合自己兴趣的事物的最佳方式——既然你觉得是好创意，别人很可能也这么想。毕竟大家都长着两条胳膊两条腿，都有大脑和眼睛对吧？

I bet it was, man. Like, create the podcast that you wanted to listen to, write the book that you wanted to read, build the product that you would have bought. It's such an easy way to ensure that you continue to build things that are aligned with your interests and the other people. Like, if you think that it's a good idea, other people probably think it's a good idea. You've got, you know, two arms and two legs and a brain and a set of eyes and stuff.

要知道，你是我们所有人的共同参照点。所以在结束前，老兄，最后一个问题。你和Navalon最大的分歧是什么？

You know, you are you are a a common denominator for the rest of us. So before we finish up, man, final question. What do you disagree most with Navalon?

嗯，这是个好问题。我不确定我们之前是否稍微讨论过这一点。我不清楚那种铁律般的斯多葛哲学与极度亲密的家庭关系是否兼容。虽然有些线索可循，但他从未直接谈及如何将这些原则实践于妻子或孩子等亲密关系中。

Yeah. That's a good question. I don't I don't know that, we talked about this a little bit, I think, earlier on. I don't know how compatible the kind of like iron prescription stoic philosophy is with with super close kind of intimate, like, family relationships. And there's a little bit of kind of bread crumbs around that, but he never really speaks directly to like how he practices these principles kind of with his wife or with, you know, children or anything like that.

这确实是我认为对哲学最严苛的考验之一——当涉及最重要的关系时。那些亲近之人的情绪会影响你，他们的痛苦会伤害你，他们的快乐会感染你。斯多葛主义在这些情境中该保持多严格的准则？我不确定是否反对他的观点，因为我并不清楚他的想法，但我对这个议题的实际应用非常感兴趣。

And I'm really that is that is one of the, like, toughest tests I think of a philosophy is is when the relationships matter most. These people close to you who, you know, their emotions matter to you and their their pain hurts you and their happiness, you know, affects your happiness. Like how do you how strict of a prescription is the stoicism in in those sorts of things is something that I'm really I don't know if I disagree with it because I don't what he thinks about it, but I'm interested in the practicalities of that piece, for sure.

分歧存在于各个领域。我们最初就说过，Naval吸引我们的一点在于他并非纸上谈兵——这是超越实用主义的哲学，是现实淬炼出的思想。虽然这种特质很棒，但有些极端情境会挑战常规舒适区。比如童年形成的深层自我认知，那种关于'你是谁'的源代码级信念。

There's all different areas. We said right at the very beginning that one of the reasons both of us are drawn to Naval is that he's not armchair philosophizing about this stuff. It's even beyond philosophy designed for practicality, it's philosophy forged in reality. And I think the fact that we have that is something that's so great, but there are a few very hot forges that challenge people in ways beyond the normal comfort zone. You know, like, when you talk about deeply embedded self beliefs from when you were a child, the source code of, like, who you think you are, that's one of them.

还有家庭关系——你与伴侣、子女的相处。当你连续六个月每晚只睡四小时照顾新生儿，同时还要处理各种压力时怎么办？这才是真实的考验。我们可以坐在这里讨论商业决策，但企业不会在家对你摆脸色。

You know, your your family relationships, how are you and your significant other and any children that you may have? How are you managing four hours of sleep a night with a bay a newborn baby for for six months, you know, in a relationship where blah blah blah blah blah blah, like, add on a bunch more stress? Like, that's that's real for because we can sit here and talk about the business does this thing and blah blah, but you don't go home to the business. You know? The business the business isn't lying in bed scowling at you at night.

虽然内心独白可能让你产生类似感受，但本质上存在某种抽离。我们认为某些生活领域应该存在安全区——家庭就像抵御外界混乱的堡垒，而更内核的则是你的自我认知。希望Naval在短暂休整后，会从隐居处出来继续为我们输出智慧。想快速了解他思想的话，不妨先听听他在Joe Rogan播客的访谈。

It might not it might feel like that from the way that your inner monologue talks to you, but there's always a particular level of detachment. And I think the way that the narrative always is, and also the way that we feel it should be, is that there is a particular safety around certain things in life. There's a a a home base that is insulated from the chaos of the outside world, family being one of them, and even further internally than that, the inner monologue and the way that you see yourself. So, yeah, I think, hopefully, after his little sabbatical, Naval will come out of his hiding hole and decide that he's gonna unleash a whole more stuff on us. Because, mean, god, that that Joe Rogan podcast, if you want the best overview, I think, that you can get before you decide to read the Navalmanac, I think go and listen to Naval on Joe Rogan.

相关链接会放在下方说明里，包括《Navalmanac》的购买渠道。若想查阅所有补充材料，获得完整的Eric Jorgensen式体验，观众该去哪里？

It'll be linked in the show notes below, as will the Almanac of Naval Ravicant. Where should people go? They wanna check out and read all the extra materials and and get the full Eric Jorgensen experience. Where do they go?

是的。Navalmanac.com就是这本书的官方网站。所以我们有

Yeah. Navalmanac dot com is the the site up for the book. So we've got

a c k。对吧？

a c k. Right?

对。没错。N a v a l。我拼不出来。是的。

Yeah. Yep. N a v a l. I can't spell it. Yep.

你会搞明白的。

You'll figure it out.

没错。链接在下面。直接点链接就行。点那个链接。

Yep. It's linked below. It's linked just press the link. Press the link.

我的Twitter上有链接，账号是eric jorgensen。我在ejorgensen.com上写点东西，但我的私信和邮箱都是开放的。很容易找到我。我肯定会通过书籍网站的邮件列表持续更新内容。所以我们会不断有新素材、新探索。

It's linked from my Twitter, which is at eric jorgensen. I do a little bit of writing on e jorgensen dot com, but I've got open DMs and emails. I'm easy to find. I'm definitely gonna keep updating things on the email list for the book website. So we'll we'll keep having kind of new material, new explorations.

我会随着Noel发布更多内容而更新。我特别想更深入地探讨杠杆原理，看看更多实际应用案例。我还在考虑做一些案例分析，展示书中原则如何被不同人用来建立业务。虽然书已经出版了，但我觉得还有很多值得探索的内容，围绕这本书和社区可以做很多有趣的事情。书中有一整章是Naval推荐阅读的书单部分。

I'll update things as as Noel comes out with more stuff. I'm really interested to kind of dive deeper into exploring leverage and, seeing kind of more of those applications. And I'm thinking about doing some, like, case studies of of applying the principles from the book into how different people have built their businesses. So I I feel like, you know, the book is out, but we are still, like there's a lot more to explore and a lot of interesting stuff to do, like, around the book and and, like, with the community. There's a there's a chapter of the book that's the whole, section of Naval's recommended reading.

我觉得围绕这些材料组织一个读书会或学习小组会非常有趣，适合那些想深入了解其影响力和来源的人。是的，我认为这会很有意思。有很多好点子正在流传。如果你有想法，就像我说的，私信我，发邮件给我。

And I thought it'd be super interesting to do, like, a like, a reading group around it, like, a study group for some of those materials for people who wanna kinda get into the the influences and the sources. Yeah. I I think it'll be really fun. There's a lot of there's a lot of good ideas floating around. If you got ideas, like I said, DM me, email me.

我随时欢迎，很乐意听听你的想法。

I'm I'm open. I'd love to hear.

太棒了，老兄。非常感谢你能来。我们谈到的所有内容，包括《阿尔马纳卡》、纳瓦尔·拉维坎特、埃里克的推特和他的网站，都会在下方节目笔记中附上链接。希望纳瓦尔的耳朵没有被他的AirPods融化，毕竟我们提到他的名字大概有四万五千次。或者如果你在隔离期间想找点乐子，可以重听这期播客，每次我们说‘纳瓦尔’这个词时就喝一杯。

I love it, man. Thank you so much for coming on. Everything that we've spoken about, including the Almanacca and Naval Ravikan, Eric's Twitter, his website, everything will be linked in the show notes below. I hope that Naval's ears haven't melted his AirPods as we've said his name about 45,000 times. Or if you wanna party and you're in lockdown, listen to this podcast again and take a shot every time that we say the word Naval.

因为那将会

Because that would be

我们可不负责，你肯定会喝挂的。

We're we're not liable for your definitely gonna die.

没错，百分之百。埃里克，老兄，这次太精彩了。非常感谢你的到来。

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. Eric, man, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for coming on.

是啊，超级开心。谢谢，克里斯。

Yeah. Super fun. Thanks, Chris.

我经常被要求推荐书籍。人们想开始阅读小说、非虚构作品或真实故事，这就是为什么我整理了一份清单，包含我读过的最有趣且最具影响力的100本书。这些是我发现的最能改变人生的读物，清单里还有我喜欢它们的理由描述以及购买链接。而且完全免费，你现在就可以通过访问chriswillx.com/books获取。网址是chriswillx.com/books。

I get asked all the time for book suggestions. People want to get into reading fiction or nonfiction or real life stories, and that's why I made a list of 100 of the most interesting and impactful books that I've ever read. These are the most life changing reads that I've ever found, and there's descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And it's completely free, and you can get it right now by going to chriswillx.com/books. That's chriswillx.com/books.