第712期 - 乔丹·彼得森博士：如何摧毁你的消极信念

这种自豪感意味着，我应该成为那样的人，甚至我有可能成为那样的人。

And the pride is something like, I should be that or even I could be that.

就像你说的，也许你确实可以，但正如你已经指出的那样，没有学徒经历，你肯定做不到。

It's like, well, maybe you could, but you're certainly not going to do it as you already pointed out without the apprenticeship.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以说，这种沮丧实际上与那种虚假的自豪感成正比。

So you could say that the despondency is actually is is in proportion to the to the false pride.

我在我第一本书中写过一章，内容是：将自己与今天的自己比较，而不是与他人比较。

Now I wrote a chapter in, I think, my first book, which was compare yourself to who you are today, not to who someone else is.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我表达得有点乱，但你应该明白我的意思。

I I mangled out to some degree, but you get the point.

对你来说，正确的比较对象是你昨天的自己。

The proper comparison group for you is you yesterday.

因为首先，你是唯一一个对你而言合适的对照组，因为你拥有特定的一组天赋、可能性、局限和只有你才有的悲剧。

Because you can make first of all, you're the you're you're you're the only control group that's appropriate to you because you have a certain set of talents and possibilities and limitations and tragedies that are truly unique to you.

所以你可能会在某个方面拿自己和别人比较，但这种比较并不合理，因为你并不知道他们拥有哪些天赋，也不知道他们有哪些你没有的机会等等。

And so You might be comparing yourself to someone else on some dimension But it's not a reasonable comparison because you don't know what talents they were blessed with and you also don't know what Opportunities they had that you didn't etc.

这种比较根本不合理，更好的做法是想想你过去的样子，然后问自己：在某些方面，你能否变得更好？

It's just not a reasonable comparison It's a lot better to think about who you were and then to think, well, could you be some, what better in some dimension?

这样做的积极之处在于，答案几乎总是肯定的。

And the positive thing about that is the answer is almost always yes.

你可以将这种转变指向某个卓越的目标，这当然是合理的，但这并不意味着你应该拿自己和那个目标做比较。

Now you can orient that transformation towards some stellar target, and that's a reasonable thing to do, but that doesn't exactly mean that you should compare yourself to that target.

设定目标和拿自己与目标比较，并不是完全相同的事情。

Aiming at something and comparing yourself to it are not exactly the same thing.

而且你的这种比较也是一种幻觉。

Plus your bloody comparison is also a delusion.

你知道吗？

You know?

你还得明白一件事：当你看着那个让你嫉妒的人时，实际上你只是透过一个非常狭窄的孔洞，看着他们生活中极其有限的一小部分。

That's another thing that you have to understand is that you look at the person you're jealous of, and really what you're doing is you're you're looking through a very narrow aperture at a very thin slice of their life.

你看到的只是他们生活中表现得最好的那一小部分，但同时，这也是被刻意包装成最完美的那一小部分。

You're looking at the thin slice of their life that's turning out the best, but you're also looking at a thin slice of their life that's marketed to be the best.

对吧？

Right?

你根本不知道他们整个人生可能有多么糟糕。

And you have no idea what the horror of that person's life might be in its totality.

你也不知道，比如说，如果你的目标是成为拉塞尔·布兰德，会怎么样。

And you have no idea if, like, if the deal was, say, you wanted to be Russell Brand.

这是个很好的例子。

There's a good example.

你想成为拉塞尔·布兰德。

You wanted to be Russell Brand.

你想像他一样有魅力、一样出名。

You wanted to be as charismatic and as famous as he is.

其实，你真正想要的是拥有拉塞尔·布兰德的一切，却不用承受他的任何烦恼。

Well, your real wish is that you get to have everything Russell Brand has, but none of his problems.

得了吧。

Well, come on.

我的意思是，难怪这样的想法会让你沮丧，因为它太天真了。

I mean, that's just it's just it's no wonder that a vision like that would make you despondent because it's it's naive.

这是怨恨。

It's resentful.

这是嫉妒。

It's jealous.

这是苦涩，而且不合理。

It's bitter, and it's unreasonable.

你必须好坏一起接受。

You you have to take the good with the bad.

你必须好坏都接受，而人们在想象自己想成为的那些名人时，很少会想到这一点。

You have to take the bad with the good, And people very rarely think about that when they're thinking about, you know, the famous people they think they'd like to be.

最近有一篇对埃隆·马斯克的采访，他说了一些话。

There was a recent interview with Elon Musk where he said something.

我的内心就像一场风暴。

My mind is a storm.

我不认为大多数人想成为我。

I don't think most people would want to be me.

是的。

Right.

是的。

Right.

他们可能以为自己想成为我，但实际上并不想。

They may think they would want to be me, but they don't.

他们并不知道。

They don't know.

他们不理解。

They don't understand.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

你对此怎么看？

What do you think of that?

埃隆是人们可能仰慕、钦佩并渴望成为的那种人。

Elon's someone that people probably look up to and admire and aspire to be.

高智商的一个弊端是，你可能会将其描述为轻躁狂。

One of the downsides to high level genius is you might describe it as hypomania.

所以这里有一个简单的小测试，人们可以试试。

So here's a simple test that people can do.

这是一个被称为语言流畅性的测试，语言流畅性与创造力有关。

So this is a test of something called verbal fluency, and verbal fluency is associated with creativity.

下面是一个简单的语言流畅性测试。

And so a here's a simple verb verbal fluency test.

在三分钟内，写下尽可能多的以字母t开头的四个字母的单词。

Write down as many four letter words as you can in three minutes that begin with t.

好的。

Okay.

那就是受限的四个字母且以T开头，或者在三分钟内写下尽可能多的以S开头的单词。

That's that's pretty constrained four letters and t or or write down as many words as you can in three minutes to begin with s.

这个限制较少。

That's less constrained.

好吧。

Alright.

因此，你产生的单词数量与你一生的创造性成就之间存在很强的相关性。

So there's quite a powerful correlation between the sheer number of words that you produce and your lifetime creative achievement.

对吧？

Right?

尤其是在艺术和语言领域。

Especially in the artistic and verbal domains.

这和词汇量是不同的。

That's different than vocabulary.

词汇量是指你理解的单词数量。

Vocabulary is how many words you understand.

流畅度是指你在给定时间内能产出的单词数量，比如12,000个。

Fluency is how many words you can produce in a given Deployment of 12,000.

是的。

Yeah.

人们的差异程度简直难以想象。

Well, people vary to a degree that you can hardly imagine.

所以，有些人如果让你在三分钟内做四字母测试，他们可能只写出12个词，而有些人则能写出150个。

So some people, if you get them to do the four letter test in three minutes, they'll write down like 12 words, and some will write down a 150.

那些写出150个词的人，他们的思维速度处于轻躁狂状态。

And the ones who are writing down a 150, their minds are going at a hypomanic rate.

他们的思考速度是别人的五倍。

They're just thinking five times as fast.

叮叮叮叮叮。

Bing bing bing bing bing.

是的。

Yeah.

完全没有缓解。

Without any remission whatsoever.

当这种情况完全失控时，你就有了躁狂状态。

And, you know, when that gets completely out of control, you have manic.

你有一个人处于躁狂状态，而躁狂一点都不可爱。

You have someone who's manic, and there's nothing fun about manic.

‘maniac’这个词就是从这里来的。

That's where the word maniac comes from.

处于躁狂状态的人，每分钟都有上千个计划，每个计划都只有一句话，但他们对此极度热情。

And someone who's manic has a thousand different plans each of which are one sentence long that they're hyper enthusiastic about.

他们会花掉所有的钱去追求这些计划，而事情会立刻陷入混乱。

They'll spend every cent of their money pursuing them and things just go immediately to hell.

因此，这就是创造力方面病理的极端极限。

And so that's the that's the outer limit of pathology on the creative front.

像马斯克这样明显是天才的人，他正在应对自己内心世界的这种状态。

And someone like Musk who's clearly a genius, that's what he's contending with in his internal landscape.

我并不是说他有躁狂症状，因为我看不到任何迹象，但如此有创造力的人就处在那条边缘上。

Now I'm not saying that he's manic because I see no signs of that, but someone that creative is on that edge.

或者你看看本·沙皮罗这样的人。

Or you see someone like Ben Shapiro.

我的意思是，和本聊天非常有趣，拉塞尔·布兰德也是这样。

I mean, it's very interesting to talk to Ben because and Russell Brand is the same way.

我认为沙皮罗说话的速度比我见过的任何人都快。

Shapiro speaks I think more rapidly than anyone I ever met.

但如果你和他在一起，就会很清楚地看到，他的思维速度可能比他说得还要快五倍。

But if you're with him, see very clearly that he's probably thinking five times that fast.

这可是相当惊人的。

And that's a lot.

当我写《意义的地图》——那是我的第一本书时，我很难让自己的大脑停下来。

And when I was writing maps of meaning, which was my first book, I had a very difficult time shutting off my mind.

我痴迷于那本书。

I was obsessed with that book.

所以我每天写三个小时。

And so I was writing about three hours a day.

然后我会花大约十二个小时思考那些内容。

And then I was thinking about the material like for twelve hours.

当想法涌现时，速度远超普通思考。

As and the thoughts came as way faster than thinking.

它们出现的速度可能和我阅读的速度差不多。

They probably came about as fast as I can read.

如果材料不是特别晦涩，我每分钟能读大约1200个单词。

I can read about 1,200 words a minute if the material isn't overwhelmingly dense.

所以那段时间，我几乎每天十六小时都在不停地思考。

And so it was just nonstop thought for, like, sixteen hours a day.

这就是我开始举重的部分原因。

That's part of the reason I started lifting weights.

因为如果我举重的话

Because if I was lifting heavy

每分钟读1200个单词，同时背上还背着100磅的重量。

1,200 words a minute while I've got a 100 pounds on my back.

这足以让我的思绪停下来。

It was enough to it was enough to shut it down.

是的。

Yeah.

这也是我喝酒的原因之一，因为喝酒也能让思绪停下来。

And it was also one of the reasons that I drank because that was another thing that would shut it off.

对。

Yeah.

我认为，人们为了成为你所钦佩的那种人所付出的代价，这种视角用来看待像埃隆·马斯克这样的人非常有趣。

Well, I I think the price that people pay to be the person that you admire is just such an interesting frame to look at someone like Elon Musk.

我的脑海里一片混乱。

My mind is a storm.

我不认为大多数人想成为我。

I don't think most people would want to be me.

成为我的代价并不是成为地球上最富有的人之一，然后你可以登台跳舞、发布防弹汽车、把火箭送入太空——嗯，是的。

The price that you would have to pay in order to be me is not one that you would be one of the richest men on the planet, and you get to, you know, dance on stage and and release cars that you are bulletproof and put rockets in space and Well, yeah.

但那些负担呢？

But what about all of the baggage?

代价是什么？

What's the price?

代价是什么？

What's price?

在我看来，他似乎极度认真负责，我认识一些曾与他共事过的人。

Also appears to me to be hyperconscientious, and I know people who've worked with him.

马斯克不仅仅是个创意天才。

Like, Musk isn't just a creative genius.

他还是一个极其认真负责的工程师，真正认真负责的工程师。

He's also an extremely conscientious engineer, which and really conscientious engineers.

他们有着非常有趣的思想。

They have very interesting minds.

我喜欢和工程师聊天，因为我的姐夫是一位出色的工程师。

I like talking to engineers because my brother-in-law is a great engineer.

当吉姆理解某件事时，他不仅能理解，还能知道如何用原子把它构建出来。

When when he understands something, Jim, when he understands something, he understands how to build it out of atoms.

对吧？

Right?

也就是说，他能在每一个层面上都彻底理解。

Like, understands it at every single level.

在我看来，马斯克是那种极为罕见的结合体：既极具创造力，又极其认真负责。

And Musk appears to me to be someone who's this rare combination of hyper creative, but also hyper conscientious.

我知道他一直在工作。

And I know that he works all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

这种过度发达的执行功能是否有助于整合那些分散的创造力？

Does that sort of, hypertrophied executive function help to wrangle some of the diffuse creative energy.

至少我们会先把精力集中在这件事上一段时间，然后再转向另一件事。

Oh, we're gonna put it into this one thing at least for a while, and then we'll move on to another thing.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Definitely.

当然。

Definitely.

埃里克·韦恩斯坦就是一个很好的例子，我希望埃里克不会因此感到不快，但他极具创造力，同时也非常认真负责。

You you Eric Weinstein's a good example of someone I hope Eric isn't annoyed by this, but Eric is unbelievably creative, but he's particularly conscientious.

所以，我认为他找到了一个非常适合这种特质的职业，因为——我不确定他现在是否还在做，但他曾长期担任彼得·蒂尔的创意顾问。

And so his and and I think he found an occupation where that works extremely well because he's he I don't know if he's still doing this, but he worked with Peter Thiel for quite a long time as his idea man.

对吧？

Right?

埃里克是一个非常有趣的人。

And Eric's an extremely interesting person.

马斯克极具创造力，据我所知，他也极其认真，而这种认真确实带来了专注。

Musk is hyper creative and as far as I can tell hyper conscientious, and the conscientiousness does focus.

你知道，很多有创造力的人并不够认真。

You know, it it and and that lots of people who are creative aren't conscientious.

嗯，这很罕见。

Well, it's rare.

比如，如果你在一千人中是最有创造力的，同时又是最认真的，那这两者之间并没有关联。

Like, if you're one in a there's no correlation between creativity and conscientiousness.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，如果你在一千人中是最有创造力的，同时也是最认真的，那你就是百万分之一的人。

So if you're one in a thousand if you're the most creative person in a thousand and you're the most conscientious person in a thousand, you're one person in a million.

而马斯克可能更接近一亿人中的一个。

And Musk is probably more like one person in a 100,000,000.

对吧？

Right?

大概是这样，也许更多，或者可能是十亿。

Something like that, maybe more, but or maybe a billion.

对吧？

Right?

也许吧。

Maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

考虑随着人们对他们的关注持续增加，他们自身以及他们的平台所发生的变化，这很有趣。

It's interesting to consider the changes that happen to people as well as they as their their platforms, as the scrutiny around them continues to increase.

显然，对你来说，这是一段旅程，差不多快十年了，嗯。

Obviously, this has been a journey for you over the last, you know, nearly approaching ten years now of Mhmm.

是2006年吗？

Was it 2006?

那是Still C16吗？

Was that Still c sixteen?

2016年。

2016.

2016年。

2016.

是的。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

你觉得名气如何改变了你？

How have you found fame change you?

由于持续的审视、监视、崇拜和批评，有哪些方面受到影响或改变了？

What's been impacted or changed due to the the scrutiny and the surveillance and the adoration and the criticism?

首先改变的是，我认为我看到了以前从未真正见识过的苦难。

Well, the first thing that changed, I think, was that I saw misery on a scale that I hadn't really seen it before.

你知道，我长期担任临床医生，每周要接触大约二十个人。

You know, I had worked as a clinician for a long time, and I worked with say 20 people a week.

我始终与客户一起面对各种艰难的存在主义问题，我很喜欢这种工作方式。

And I was always in the realm of difficult existential problems wrestling with my clients problems alongside of them, and I liked that a lot.

此外，我还有自己的研究、家庭和各种商业兴趣，因此这种痛苦在某种程度上被控制和局限在一定范围内，我周围有大量结构化的支持，让我即使深陷二十个人的严重问题中，依然能够正常运作——顺便说一句，我真的很喜欢这种状态。

And then I had my research and I had my family and various business interests, and so that misery in some ways was contained and boxed in and I had a lot of structure around that to be able to function despite the fact that, you know, I was neck deep in 20 people's serious problems, which I really liked by the way.

当我开始大规模演讲、接触越来越多的人时，这种普遍的士气低落才真正触动了我。

When when I started speaking on a larger scale and meeting more and more people, this scale of demoralization really hit me.

我从未意识到，我们文化中的士气低落已经深重到这种地步。

I didn't know that I didn't know how deep the demoralization in our culture had become.

在那时，这一点在我接触的年轻人中尤其明显。

And I think that was especially obvious to me at that point among young men.

现在看来，乔纳森·海特的研究表明，年轻女性的情况可能甚至更糟。

Now it looks like this is Jonathan Haidt's research is indicating this that possibly young women are even in worse shape.

但不知为何，我最初接触的大多数人都是年轻男性。

But for whatever reason most of the people I was meeting at least to begin with were young men.

我想这可能是因为在YouTube上，绝大多数人都是年轻男性。

I think it was probably because most of them far more people on YouTube are young men.

因此，看到我们文化中这种普遍而严重的士气低落，真是令人震惊且残酷。

And so the it was shocking and brutal to see how much demoralization how widely spread the demoralization in our culture was.

除了这一点，这确实让我深受震撼，对我来说也非常艰难。

Other than that and that that was a real shock, and it it was very hard on me, I would say.

除此之外，其他所有方面都至少极其有趣。

Everything else about it has been at minimum ridiculously interesting.

我拥有难以置信的丰富机遇。

I have an unbelievable wealth of opportunity.

如果我不心怀感激，那才是愚蠢至极。

I'd be a fool to be anything but abjectly grateful.

我的意思是，我所看到的痛苦让我震惊，让我心痛，这也是其中一部分原因

I mean, the misery that I saw was a shock, and it hurt me, and it it was part of what

让我病倒了。

made me ill.

这对你产生了什么影响？

How did that impact you?

它有没有改变你看待世界的方式？

Did it change the way that you see the world at all?

它让我更深刻地理解到给予人们鼓励的话语是多么重要。

It made me understand more deeply how important it was to offer people an encouraging word.

我看到太多人因为缺乏一句鼓励的话而心理上甚至实际上濒临崩溃。

I could see that so many people were dying psychologically or actually for lack of an encouraging word.

因此，能够提供这种鼓励变得尤为重要。

And so it made being in the position to provide that much more necessary.

我的意思是，塔米和我之所以不断巡回，部分原因是因为这似乎很有意义。

I mean, part of the reason that Tammy and I tour constantly is because it seems to be good.

这似乎是一件好事。

It seems to be a good thing.

你知道，我们甚至看到了观众的变化。

You know, we've even seen changes in the audience.

五年前、六年前，我们第一次巡讲时，来听讲座的人大多状态很差。

So five years ago, six years ago, when we did our first tour, a lot of the people who came to the talks were in pretty rough shape.

当时男性比现在多，男女比例更高。

There were more men than there are now, like the proportion of men to women was higher.

这些男性通常独自前来，很多人看起来衣衫褴褛、精神萎靡。

And the men were generally there alone, they were a lot of them were looking pretty ragged around the edges.

而五年后的今天，有一半的观众穿着西装。

And now five years later, half the audience comes in suits.

就像他们穿着去参加婚礼一样，大多数男性都带着一位女性，观众的整体状态好了很多，讲座活动也极为积极。如果你从外部看我的生活，可能会以为我始终处于激烈的争议风暴中，但事实上，几乎所有这些争议都只存在于网络世界。

Like it's as if they're dressed for a wedding most of the guys are there with some woman The the audience members are doing much better and the Lecture events are extremely positive You know, if you looked at my life from the outside, you'd think that I was in a constant storm of, you know, aggravated controversy, but all of that, virtually all of that is virtual.

这些只发生在网络世界里。

It's just in the online world.

不过偶尔也会波及现实世界，因为我正被我的监管学院追查。

Now it touches the actual world from time to time because I am being pursued by my regulatory college Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这纯粹是个烦人的事，一个荒谬的、昂贵又耗时的麻烦。

Which is, you know, mostly just an annoyance and a preposterous annoyance, a preposterous expensive and time consuming annoyance.

但除此之外，我周围发生的一切都是积极的。

But apart from that, everything that's happened around me has been positive.

这也很奇怪。

It that's a strange thing too.

积极到如此强烈的程度，甚至让人感到压力。

Positive at such an intensity that even that is daunting.

你可能会觉得，很难想象会有这样一种情况：事情好到你几乎承受不了，但我就处在这样的境地中。

You know, you'd think it's hard to imagine that you could be in a situation where things are so positive that you can barely stand it, but but I am in that situation.

这确实是个需要应对的挑战。

And it's quite something to contend with.

我想，我算幸运，因为这件事直到我年老时才发生，我从未真正适应过它。

I was fortunate, I suppose, to some degree that it didn't happen to me till I was old because I've never really I've never really got accustomed to it.

我观察了你身上发生的事，有了一个想法，比如温斯坦夫妇就是很好的例子。

I've had a thought about this observing what's happened to you and, you know, the Weinsteins are a good example of this too.

我们经常听到过早成名的危险。

We often hear the perils of getting fame too young.

嗯。

Mhmm.

像麦考利·卡尔金、布兰妮·斯皮尔斯这样的人，他们没有自我认同，却被抛入一种非典型的世界体验中，完全失去了方向。

In the Macaulay Culkins of the world, the Britney Spears of the world, you know, individuals who don't have any sense of identity being thrust into a nonrepresentative experience of the world, and they're completely unmoored.

但我认为，还有一个同样有趣的问题值得探讨。

But I think that there's an equally interesting question to ask.

好的。

Okay.

如果你自认为了解自己是谁，会发生什么？

And what happens if you think you know who you are?

如果你花了数十年——五十年、六十年——去理解自己的位置、身份和人生轨迹，然后突然间，你被彻底剥离了这一切，嗯。

If you've spent decades, five decades, six decades of your life understanding your place, your status, the trajectory that you're on, and then out of nowhere, you get ripped away from all of the Mhmm.

你曾经熟知的所有参照点和路标，现在都消失了，你只是漂浮在空中。

Areas of reference, all of the way markers that you thought you knew, and now you're just floating in the air.

我想象在某些方面，这可能更加令人不安。

I I imagine that could be even more disquieting in some ways.

当一切在我周围爆发时，那确实很有压力，因为我的工作岌岌可危——我的大学教职，我从未想过会发生这种事。

Well, when everything blew up around me to begin with, it was stressful, I would say, because my job was on the line, my university job, and I never thought that would happen.

我的意思是，当我还在哈佛和多伦多大学工作时，一切都非常积极。

I mean, my when I worked at Harvard and at the University of Toronto, that was all positive.

我真的很喜欢和我的研究生们一起工作。

Like, I really liked working with my graduate students.

我在哈佛的同事和我至少保持着礼貌的关系。

I had at least cordial relationships with my with my fellow faculty members at Harvard.

他们远不止是礼貌而已。

They were more than cordial.

在多伦多大学，我最初建立友谊的大多数教职员工，后来也都离开了。

At the University of Toronto, most of the faculty members that I started to develop friendships with were also those who ended up moving away.

他们经常是收到了其他地方的聘任邀请，然后就突然消失了。

And so and they were often people who got offers from other places and, you know, they they would disappear.

所以我在多伦多大学结交的很多朋友都去了别的地方。

And so a lot of the friends I developed at the University of Toronto went elsewhere.

因此，我并没有像在哈佛那样，与同龄人建立起紧密的友谊网络。

And so I didn't get as tightly tied in with regards to friendship networks among my peers as I had at Harvard, for example.

但我与本科生和研究生都保持着很好的关系。

But I had great relationships with undergraduates and with my graduate students.

这就足够了。

That was plenty.

我真的很喜欢和我的研究生一起工作。

Like, I loved working with my graduate students.

所以，我并没有感到孤独或渴望陪伴，完全不是这样。

And so it wasn't like I was pining and alone, not at all.

我也有一个不错的友谊网络。

And I had a good network of friends.

然后，这种情况在2016年受到威胁并真正消失了，我的临床实践也受到了影响，这让我感到不安。

And and so then that was threatened and really disappeared in 2016, and my clinical practice was threatened, and so that was unsettling.

不过，我认为有些事情还是持续了下来。

I think there were things that continued though.

即使在我担任大学教授的时候，我的教学方式也不寻常。

Even when I was teaching as a university professor, the way I taught wasn't typical.

我所教授的内容也不寻常。

The things I taught weren't typical.

几十年来，我一直觉得，总有一天会有人发现我在教什么，然后就会出问题。

I thought for decades, you know, eventually someone's gonna find out what I'm teaching and and, you know, there's gonna be trouble.

我简直不敢相信，我居然被允许、甚至被鼓励去教这些内容。

I couldn't believe I was allowed, encouraged to teach what I was teaching.

但你知道，大学的结构就是这样，尤其是在九十年代的哈佛，情况正是如此。

But, you know, the universities, and this was particularly true of Harvard in the nineties, that's how they were structured.

你教的东西到底有什么叛逆之处？

What was so rebellious about what what you were teaching?

当时几乎没有人专注于原型观念、原型与宗教观念和神经科学之间的交汇点。

Well, there wasn't really anybody who was concentrating on the nexus between, say, archetypal ideas, archetypal and religious ideas and neuroscience.

所以这根本不是个议题。

So that wasn't a thing.

当然有少数人，比如雅克·潘克塞普，许多研究情绪神经科学的人开始对深层叙事产生兴趣，因为他们逐渐意识到，我们的情感生活其实是一个故事。

I mean, there was a few people, Yak Panksepp was one of them who a lot of the researchers who were interested in the neuroscience of emotion became interested in deep narrative because they started to understand that our emotional life is a story.

这是一种很好的思考方式。

That's a good way of thinking about it.

我们受到情感本能的引导，你知道的，我们被情感本能所引导。

And that we're guided, you know, we're guided by our emotional instincts.

而我们的情感本能所做的，就是把我们带入某些特定的故事中。

And what our emotional instincts do is put us into certain stories.

比如说，陷入爱河就意味着你正身处一个爱情故事中。

That's what it means to be in love, for example, is that you're in a love story.

对，没错。

And Yeah.

并不是你所了解的某种特定的催产素和内啡肽的平衡。

It's not it's not a a particular balance of oxytocin and endorphins that you are aware of.

它并没有被分解成其组成部分。

It's not broken down to its constituent parts.

不。

No.

绝对不是。

Definitely not.

它是

It's part

你对自己所经历的一切及其感受所讲述的故事的一部分。

of a narrative that you tell yourself about what this means and how this feels.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

有趣的是，这种本能会以故事的形式表现出来。

Well, and it's interesting that the instinct manifests itself as a story.

所以我对叙事和故事非常感兴趣，而且我也发现，几乎没有心理学家研究过这个，卡尔。

And so I was very interested in narrative and story, and I and also, see no psychologist study, Carl.

你知道，几乎是完全没有。

You know, like, literally virtually none.

真的吗？

Really?

哦，是的。

Now oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

绝对不是。

Definitely not.

我的意思是，心理学在某些方面实际上是作为精神分析的唯物主义对立面发展起来的。

I mean, psychology psychology really developed in some ways as the materialist antithesis to psychoanalysis.

所以弗洛伊德、荣格，甚至阿德勒在某种程度上，对受过科学训练的行为心理学家来说都是禁区，而我正是这样的人，现在也是。

So Freud and Jung and even Adler to some degree, they were off limits for for scientifically trained behavioral psychologists, and that's what I was and am.

比如，我在麦吉尔大学接受的训练。

Like, I trained at McGill.

麦吉尔大学根本没有精神分析理论的课程。

There were no courses in psychoanalytic theory at McGill.

我完全是自学读完了弗洛伊德和荣格的著作。

I read Freud and Jung completely on my own.

尽管我甚至从我那位好心的研究生导师那里得到了劝告——他是个很棒的人，从未给我制造任何障碍，恰恰相反——但当我进入求职市场时，有人警告我不要谈论我真正感兴趣的话题。

Flying in the face of the advice that I was getting even from my well meaning graduate supervisor who was a great guy and who never got in my way in the least quite the contrary, but I was warned for example when I went on the job market not to talk about the things that I was truly interested in.

顺便说一句，我无视了这些建议。

And I ignored that, by the way.

这意味着有些我申请的单位并不想要我，但哈佛却录取了我，结果相当不错。

And what that meant was some places that I went to apply for a job didn't want me, but then Harvard did, so that worked out quite nicely.

你知道的。

You know?

忠于自己的愿景，这也是其中一个好处，因为你不会得到你不想要的东西。

And that's one of the advantages too also of being true to your own vision is that you won't get what you don't want.

你看，我不想去那些不想要我的地方工作。

See, I didn't wanna go work somewhere where they wouldn't want me.

我想去那些想要我的地方工作。

I wanted to go work somewhere where they wanted me.

所以我的策略是，这就是我。

So my strategy was, well, this is who I am.

如果你不接受我，那确实挺遗憾的，因为我正在找工作。

And if you don't want me, you know, that's a drag because I'm looking for a job.

但同样地，我不会为了在这里工作而假装成另一个人。

But by the same token, I'm not going to pretend to be someone other than who I am so I can work here.

用这种方式开始你的职业生涯，真是太愚蠢了。

What a stupid way of starting your career.

这又回到了真相。

Well, goes back to the truth.

对吧？

Right?

讲真话。

Telling the truth.

如果你讲了一个足够诱人的谎言，你最好的结果会是什么？

What are you going to if you tell a sufficiently seductive lie, what is the best that you can hope for?

没错。

Right.

你所欺骗的那个人，会爱上一个虚构的形象。

The person that you are telling the lie to falls in love with a projection.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Right.

当然。

Absolutely.

当我申请研究生时，我写了一封疯狂的入学申请信，坦诚地介绍了我自己，包括我的缺点和兴趣所在。

Well, when I applied to graduate school, I wrote a crazy admissions letter, and I basically laid out who I was, flaws and all, and what I was interested in.

结果有两到三个人对此感兴趣。

And two people, three people bit.

我最欣赏的是那位在麦吉尔大学的导师，罗伯特·皮尔， partly 因为我想去蒙特利尔。

And the one that I liked best partly because he was at McGill, and I wanted to be in Montreal was my graduate supervisor, Robert Peel.

他清楚自己将面对的是什么，而我们相处得非常愉快。

And he knew what he was getting, and we had a great time.

我至今仍与他合作。

I still work with him.

我和鲍勃的关系是我一生中最好的关系之一，已经持续了四十年。

Like, I had one of the best relationships with Bob that I've ever had with anyone in my life, and it's lasted four decades.

这是因为鲍勃是个非常诚实的人。

And it was because, like, Bob's a very honest person.

我们非常不同。

We were very different.

他非常务实。

He's very practical.

他是个非常优秀的管理者，属于管理型人才。

He's a very good administrator, a managerial type.

尽管他超级聪明。

Although he's he's super smart.

他对于相关研究心理学文献有着全面的了解，而我则带着一整套精神分析理论、哲学和宗教观念闯入，两者截然不同。不过，我们确实都对研究的实践性有着深厚的共同兴趣，他教会了我如何爱上研究中更科学的那一面。但我想说的是，从一开始，他就清楚自己得到了什么，我也一样。

He had an exhaustive knowledge of the relevant research psychology literature, and I came in, you know, flying on a mat of psychoanalytic theory and philosophy and religious ideas very very different Although we shared a real deep interest in the practicalities of research and he taught me how to fall in love with the more scientific end of the research distribution But the point I'm making is that he knew he knew what he was getting right from the beginning and so did I.

这简直完美无缺。

And that worked like a charm.

没有任何必要玩什么心机，结果发现，他的长处和我的专长配合得极其默契。

There was no reason for any sort of subterfuge, and it turned out that our his talents and mine dovetailed extremely well.

所以我们玩得非常开心。

So and we had a blast.

我喜欢和他一起工作，这就是为什么我们合作了四十年。

I loved working with well, like, that's why we've been working together for forty years.

我和鲍勃一起走遍了整个北美，因为我们还一起创办了一家公司，那感觉太棒了。

I traveled all over North America with Bob because we also started a business, and it was great.

那感觉太棒了。

It was great.

关键是，你知道，如果你坦诚告诉别人你是谁，机会就会为你敞开。

The thing is, you know, if you tell people who you are and an opportunity opens up, it opens up for you.

是的。

Yes.

不是为你创造的这个谎言。

Not for this thing you've created, this lie.

道格拉斯·默里给我讲过一个关于他早年在一家报社第一任老板的故事。

There's this story that Douglas Murray told me about one of his first bosses at an early newspaper that he worked at.

我想不起那位先生的名字了。

I can't remember the gentleman's name.

这人在业内是个传奇。

This guy is a legend within the industry.

他工作了很长时间。

He's been working for a long time.

他积累了不少反对者和粉丝。

He's accumulated a number of haters and and fans.

在他职业生涯的后期，当道格拉斯刚开始时，他决定创作一部关于查尔斯王子的西区戏剧，使用押韵对句，这在西区戏剧中也算相当大胆了。

And toward the back end of his career, as Douglas is starting his, he decides that he wants to release a West End play about the life of prince Charles and rhyming couplets, adventurous as as West End plays go.

当然，由于他在出版界非常有名，因此受到了极大的关注。

And, obviously, there was all of this scrutiny because he was this very well known individual within the publishing world.

首演当晚，在中场休息时，整个剧院里一个观众都没了，连演员都走光了。

And, opening night, by the halftime interval, there was no one left in the entire auditorium, including the cast.

这位先生深受打击。

And this guy was devastated.

对吧？

Right?

他被媒体大肆嘲笑，诸如此类。

And he was mocked in the press and all the rest of it.

据说，道格拉斯不久后见到了他，并温和地问他。

Apparently, Douglas saw him shortly afterward and asked him kindly.

他说，你看。

He was like, look.

你当时到底在想什么？

Like, what were you thinking?

一部关于查尔斯王子生平、还满是他妈的押韵对句的西区戏剧？

A West End play about the life of Prince Charles and fucking rhyming couplets?

他说，道格拉斯，我只是听从了直觉。

He said, well, Douglas, I followed my instincts.

这种直觉有时可能会带你走错路

An instinct that may sometimes lead you wrong

嗯。

Mhmm.

但它们是你唯一曾引领你正确的方向。

But they're the only thing that's ever led you right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

这句话一直印在我心里，因为

And that stuck with me because

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，在直觉方面，还有些非常相关的内容。

Well, there there there's something very relevant there too on the instinctual front.

K。

K.

所以，事物会向你招手、呼唤你，你会对应该选择哪条路有直觉。

So things will beckon to you and call to you, and you'll have intuitions about which pathway to take.

而且你很可能会遵循这些直觉，因为除此之外你还有什么？

And you will, in all likelihood, follow those because what else do you have?

你拥有这些指引性的本能。

You have these orienting instincts.

这是你不说谎的另一个原因。

This is another reason why you don't lie.

因为如果你撒谎并不断练习撒谎，就会扭曲你的本能，导致你的直觉误导你。

Because if you lie and you practice lying, you pathologize your instincts, and then your intuitions lead you wrong.

因此，福音书中提到一种罪。

And so there's a sin that's laid out in the gospels.

那就是亵渎圣灵的罪，而且是不可饶恕的。

It's the sin against the Holy Ghost, and it's unforgivable.

人们已经为此争论了大约两千年，但这种罪类似于扭曲了指引你的本能。

And people have been debating for, like, two thousand years about what this particular sin is, but it's something like the pathologization of the instincts that orient you.

如果你舍弃了与真理的关系，扭曲了你的视野，你就再也看不清了。

Give you sacrifice your relationship to the truth, you warp your vision, and then you can't see.

然后有一天，天会黑下来，前方的雾中会出现尖锐的东西，而你会径直撞上去，因为你已经扭曲了自己的洞察力。

And then one day, it'll be dark, and there'll be sharp things in the fog in front of you, and you'll wander right into them because you've pathologized your own vision.

是的。

Yeah.

你不想说谎，因为你给自己植入了虚假的程序，然后就会自动看到根本不存在的东西。

You you don't want to lie because you you program yourself falsely, and then you automatically see what isn't there.

接着，世界会不断给你一记耳光，而你会想：天哪，这个世界真是病态得可怕。

And then of course the world will slap you in the face continually, and you'll think oh my god, the world's such a pathological place.

但事实是，你只是不断撞上那些你拒绝正视的事物。

When the truth of the matter is is that no, you just keep running into things that you refuse to see.

然后你就认为，这个世界充满了障碍。

And then you think well the world's made of nothing but obstacles.

其实，是你自己在前进的路上设置了障碍，而你正是通过发展这些复杂而自私的幻觉做到的——你向别人讲述一个关于你是谁的虚假故事。

It's like well, you put the obstacles in your own path and you did that by developing these complex self serving delusions, a story that you tell other people about who you are that isn't true.

你试图绘制一张与现实毫无关联的地图，却一直困惑为什么自己会偏离正道，掉进坑里。

You're trying to lay out a map that bears no relationship to reality, and you keep wondering why you wander off the path and into a pit.

就像说，事情还能有别的可能吗？

It's like, well, how could it be otherwise?

你看，如果一个人真正理解了这一点，很多人曾跟我评论过我的勇气，但我不喜欢这种说法。

You see, if you really under this people have commented to me many times about my bravery, and I I I don't like that.

这不对，这不对，这根本不对。

I it's it's it's not right.

我害怕的东西和普通人不一样。

I'm afraid of different things than the typical person.

也许这样想是个不错的方式。

Maybe that's a good way of thinking about it.

比起说出虚假的话或偏离正途可能带来的后果，我更害怕的是，因为坚持我所相信的而可能招致的后果。

I'm way more afraid of the consequences of saying something that's false or wandering off the appropriate path than I am of whatever consequences might come for saying what I believe and doing what I believe to be the case.

我更害怕的是后者。

I'm way more afraid of that.

你知道吗，我最近一直在读《马太福音》。

You know, I've been reading the gospel of Saint Matthew.

我目前正在写一本名为《与上帝角力的人》的书。

I'm I'm writing a book at the moment called We Who Wrestle With God.

基督不断对人们说的一件事是不要损害自己的视野，这是最恰当的表达方式。

And one of the things Christ says to people continually is to not damage their vision, is to not put that's the best way of putting it.

不要遮住你的眼睛。

Don't occlude your eye.

如果你愿意去看，你就能看到眼前的一切。

You can see what's in front of you if you're willing to see it.

如果你愿意去看，生活中那些可怕的障碍，你其实都可以绕过去。

And if you're willing to see it, the terrible ops many of the terrible obstacles in life, you can just walk around.

但如果你故意蒙蔽自己，去追随狭隘的、利己的幻觉，你就总会撞上可怕的事物、可怕的人，以及你自己灵魂中可怕的部分。

But if you blind yourself purposefully to follow your own narrow self serving delusion, you're gonna run into terrible things and terrible people and the terrible part of your own soul all the time.

这才是你真正应该害怕的。

That's what you should be afraid of.

但如果你这样做了，你所能期待的最好结果，也不过是侥幸成功地过着别人的生活。

But the best thing that you can hope for if you do do that is to fluke success living somebody else's life.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

很好。

Great.

太棒了。

Wonderful.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

你就能成为一个成功的骗子。

You get to be you get to be a successful fraud.

我记得一部关于罗恩·杰里米的纪录片。

I remember this documentary about Ron Jeremy.

我认为他们叫他刺猬。

I think they called him the hedgehog.

他是一位著名的色情明星。

He was this famous porn star.

我看过一部有他出演的音乐视频。

I've seen a music video with him in.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

从身体上来说，他不是世界上最吸引人的人。

Not one of the world's most attractive people physically.

而且，你知道，他生活在一个非常独特的世界里。

And, you know, he lived in this very interesting world.

他生活在这个世界里。

He lived in this world.

他经常在街上被认出来，人们认为罗恩·杰里米是个英雄。

He was stopped constantly on the street by people who thought Ron Jeremy was a hero.

对吧？

Right?

所以他身处地狱，因为崇拜他的人，正是那些崇拜的人。

So he was in hell because the people who admired him were the people who admired.

他被那些认为他是成功化身的人包围着。

He was surrounded by the people who thought that he was an avatar of success.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我猜他得到了他想要的东西。

And so he got what he wanted, I suppose.

他能轻易接触到很多女性。

He had easy access to easy women.

另外，本集由Manscaped赞助播出。

In other news, this episode is brought to you by Manscaped.

如果你是一位绅士，却还在用三年前圣诞节买的旧剃须刀修剪私密部位，你到底在干什么？

If you are a gentleman who is still using an old face shaver from three Christmases ago to trim your gentleman's area, what are you doing?

加入我们，进入现代世界吧。

Join us here in the modern world.

市面上有专为这一用途设计的工具，而全新推出的Lawn Mower 5.0 Ultra正是你所需要的工具。

There are purpose built tools for the job, and the brand new Lawn Mower five point o Ultra is the tool that you need.

它配备了陶瓷刀片，可减少修整时的意外伤害；90分钟续航，让你可以更从容地剃须；具备防水技术，让你可以在淋浴时修整；还配有LED灯，能照亮修整区域，实现更精准的修剪——或者，如果你喜欢像忍者一样在黑暗中操作，也完全没问题。

It's got a cutting edge ceramic blade to reduce grooming accidents, a ninety minute battery so that you can take a longer shave, waterproof technology so that you can groom in the shower, and an LED light, which illuminates grooming areas for a closer and more precise trim, or if you just want to do it in the dark like a ninja would.

随着假日季的到来，你或许想为身边的男士送一份礼物，或者委婉地暗示他身上有些地方的毛发比你希望的要多一些，而Manscaped Lawn Mower 5.0 Ultra正是完美融合这两种需求的理想之选。

Going into the holiday season, you might want to get the man in your life a gift or hint at him that he's a tiny bit more hairy than you would like, and the Manscaped Lawn Mower five point o Ultra is the perfect blending of these two worlds.

由于我们在YouTube上，无法直接展示它实际如何工作，但我可以向你展示这个转变效果。

Since we're on YouTube, I can't show you how this actually works, But what I can show you is that transformation right there.

这就是你，各位绅士。

That's you, gentlemen.

这个季节，通过访问下方描述中的链接或前往 manscaped.com/wisdom 并在结账时使用代码 wisdom，享受 20% 的折扣和免费配送，收获顺滑的礼物。

Unwrap the gift of smoothness this season by going to the link in the description below or heading to manscaped.com/wisdom using the code wisdom at checkout for 20% off and free shipping.

那就是 manscaped.com/wisdom，结账时使用代码 wisdom。

That's manscaped.com/wisdomand wisdom at checkout.

好吧，让我把这个给你。

Well, let me give you let me give you this.

这就是为什么我认为禁欲者运动和黑 pill 运动起源于搭讪艺术。

This is why I think the beginning of the incel movement and the black pill movement was born out of pickup artistry.

如果追溯互联网历史，禁欲者黑 pill 思想的起源，我认为是一个名为 PUA hate（搭讪艺术家恨）的子版块或网站。

The origin, if you trace it back using Internet history, of the incel black pill, ideology was a I think it's a subreddit or a website called PUA hate, pick up artist hate.

那是一群经历过搭讪艺术流程的男人，是的。

And what it was was a group of men who had been through the pipeline of pick up artistry Yeah.

他们从这段经历中走出来，对世界抱有非常愤世嫉俗、甚至更加愤世嫉俗的看法。

And come out the other side with a very jaded and even more jaded view of the world.

更加愤世嫉俗。

Even more jaded.

是的。

Yes.

我来告诉你为什么。

And I'll tell you why.

所以，如果一个男人学习了2000年代的老派搭讪技巧，

So what happens if a guy learns old school, 20 naughts pickup artistry

是

is

你会发现有一套特定的行为方式和脚本，按照它们操作会增加女性与你发生关系的可能性。

you realize that there is a particular set of actions, a script that you can run, which makes it more likely that a woman is going to go to bed with

你。

you.

但当你这样做的时候，随着你学会如何纠缠、进行关键性升级，或者讲那个关于外面矮个子打斗的故事——无论你的脚本是什么，你都会开始意识到，那个你扮演的角色与真实的自己有多么遥远。

But what you realise when you do that, as you learn how to nag and do keynote escalation and tell them that story about the midget fight outside or whatever your script is that you're running, you then begin to see just how far away that person is from the person that you actually show up as.

对。

Right.

你真实的自我，和为了让这个女人上床而必须编造出来的这种夸张人设，反而让你感觉更糟。

Who you are and this extravagant persona that you need to convolute into existence in order to get this woman into bed makes you feel worse even.

填补你当前状态与实现目标所需行为之间的差距。

Fill the gap between where you are and what you have to do in order to achieve the thing that you want.

但你没意识到的是，还有上百万种其他方式可以让你变得足够迷人，从而让这个人喜欢你。

Now what you don't realize is that there are a million other ways that you could become sufficiently charming to get this person to like you.

这就是

This is

比如，通过真正去实践。

By actually doing it, for example.

这只是其中一种恰好足够稳健、容易写进书里、也容易

This is just one that happens to be robust and easy enough to write down in a book and easy enough

对。

for Yeah.

本质上，这是一种有剧本的反社会行为。

Well, basically a form of scripted psychopathy.

所以，精神病态者会假装自己很有能力。

So what a psychopath does is feign competence.

对吧？

Right?

因此，大多数精神病态者情绪都非常稳定。

So most psychopaths are very emotionally stable.

因此，能力的早期标志之一就是自我掌控和冷静。

And so one of the early stage markers for competence is self possession and calmness.

所以，如果你不是一个焦虑的人，你在这方面已经占优势了。

And so if you're not an anxious person, you've got an edge on that already.

而且大多数精神病态者情绪稳定性都很高。

And most psychopaths are very high in emotional stability.

因此，他们看起来很自信，因为自信的人通常不会那么紧张。

And so they look confident because confident people tend not to be that nervous.

比如，当你在做自己擅长的事情时，你不会紧张，因为你知道自己该怎么做。

Like if you're doing something you're expert at, well, you're not nervous because you know how to do it.

好吧，缺乏紧张感是能力的一个线索。

Okay, so the lack of nervousness is a hint to competence.

但你可以假装出来。

Well, you can feign that.

你可以假装有本事。

You can feign competence.

你可以假装自信。

You can feign confidence.

这就是搭讪艺术家们所教的。

That's what the pickup artists teach.

我认为他们所做的事情也有一些用处。

Now I would say there's even some utility in what they do.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你依赖、怨恨、不满、没有魅力、自我毁灭、紧张且社交能力差，你成功吸引女性的可能性会非常非常低。

Because if you're dependent and bitter and resentful and charmless and self destructive and nervous and socially unskilled, the probability that you're gonna be successful with women is very very low.

好的。

Okay.

所以你应该成为不同于你本来的样子。

So you should be other than who you are.

如果你开始扮演这个人设，你可以把它想象成一套新衣服，通过它来学习如何填补那些不足。

Now if you start putting on this persona, then you could think about that as a new suit of clothes, and you could learn through that how to fill in the gaps.

假装直到你真正成功。

Fake it until you make it.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

但如果你只是接受这种伪装，却不付出必要的努力去真正内化它，那么你得到的奖励只是对虚伪的奖赏。

But if you take on that without doing the effort necessary to integrate that in a genuine way, then all that's happening is that you're you're being rewarded for being fake.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

而这也是这个问题的一部分：你正在练习以一种精神病态的方式操控他人。

And that's part of the problem with that too is that you're practicing learning how manipulate people in a psychopathic way.

如果你反复练习这一点，当然会变得愤世嫉俗。

And if you practice that, of course, you're going to become jaded.

没有什么比精神病态者更愤世嫉俗的了。

Like, there's nothing more jaded than a psychopath.

我的意思是，这正是愤世嫉俗的终极极端。

I mean, that's that's the ultimate extreme of jadedness.

如果你练习操控，尤其是当那些女性本身还算不错的女性时，如果你成功地操控了她们，那你就是在学习成为一个可怕的人。

And if you practice manipulating, especially if the women happen to be reasonably good women, if you practice manipulating them and you're successful, then you're learning to be one you're learning to be one horrible person.

当然，作为你那个完全无用、毫无产出且令人反感的旧自我，你原本也谈不上有多好。

Now, you know, as your completely useless, unproductive, and undesirable former self, you weren't exactly stellar to begin with.

但用精神病态取代那个旧自我，某种程度上就像用愤世嫉俗取代天真。

But substituting psychopathy for that was sort of like substituting cynicism for naivety.

现在作为一个复杂的问题，人们喜欢安德鲁·泰特这样的角色，部分原因在于他们展现出那种自信——虚假的自信。

Now as a complex problem, I mean, part of the reason that people like Andrew Tate are so attractive to young guys is because they do put up that confident that false confidence.

泰特这个人很复杂，因为他的情况并非全都是虚假的。

It's Tate's a complicated guy because it's not all false.

明白吗？

Know?

真实的人是复杂的，不像漫画里的反派那样简单。

Real people are complicated the way that like villains in in comic books aren't.

泰特是个斗士。

Tate's a fighter.

很明显，他确实具备某种程度的肉体勇气。

It's clearly the case that he's got a certain degree of physical bravery.

这是真实的。

That's real.

好吧？

Alright?

他所说的某些内容对那些躲在卧室或地下室里的失败者极具吸引力，因为他至少敢走出去，直面生活的打击，开快车、张扬炫目，还能吸引女性。

There's an element of what he says that's very attractive to bed bedroom basement dwelling losers because he's at least there out in the world, you know, taking the blows and he's got a fast car and he's flashy and he's attractive to women.

但他对女性所做的很多事，已经不只是接近病态，

But a lot of what he's done especially with women doesn't just border into the psychopathic.

而是越过了界限，这绝不是一个好的榜样。

It crosses the line and that's not a good model.

对于那些希望进步的人来说，这并不是一个理想模式，但这很奇怪，因为正如愤世嫉俗比天真幼稚要好，能够面对黑暗，也比完全不具备面对黑暗的能力要强。

It's not an optimal model for people who are trying to progress, but it's a strange thing because just as cynicism is an improvement over naivety, right, the capacity to be dark is an improvement over the lack of ability to be dark at all.

所以，塔特的吸引力在于，他像阴影一样召唤着那些尚未成熟的人。

And so Tate is attractive in the way that the shadow beckons to people who are undeveloped.

对吧？

Right?

因为确实如此。

Because it does.

你之所以神经质、依赖、压抑，是因为你幼稚且无害。

It's like you're you're neurotic and you're dependent and you're repressed because you're immature and harmless.

摆脱这种情况的一种方式就是不再无害。

Well, one way out of that is to stop being harmless.

关于塔特，你可以说的是，他并不是无害的。

And one of the things you can say about Tate is that he's not harmless.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，这是一种美德。

Well, that's that's a it's a virtue.

但现在，这种美德需要被限定。

Now, it's a virtue that has to be bracketed.

就像愤世嫉俗相对于天真是一种美德，但它本身并不算真正的美德。

It's like cynicism is a virtue compared to naivety, but it's not it's not virtuous in and of itself.

它只是通往更高境界的一个步骤。

It's a step on the way.

所以，你或许可以学会假装自信，了解这种方式的作用，这或许是一种进步。我曾经在临床实践中遇到一位男士，他加入了搭讪艺术家的圈子，他告诉我很多关于这方面的内容，其中一项练习要求初学者一天内向50位女性索要电话号码。

And so Maybe you can learn how to feign confidence and you can learn how that works and maybe that's an improvement I had a guy in my clinical practice who got involved with the pickup artist community and he told me taught me a lot about it and one of the exercises that their initiates had to do was to go out and ask 50 women for their phone number in one day.

这真是个很好的练习，你知道的，我

And that's a great exercise, you know, and I'm

不是暴露疗法应对焦虑。

not Exposure therapy approach anxiety.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

克服对拒绝的恐惧。

Getting over your fear of rejection.

没错。

Right.

五十次就会做到，因为你绝大多数时候都会被拒绝。

And 50 times will do that because you're going to get rejected the vast majority of times.

嗯，很可能是五十次，不过通常人们并没有这样的体验。

Well, likely 50 times, although generally that wasn't people's experience.

你知道，如果他们稍微有点技巧，至少也能从这次经历中得到一个假的电话号码。

You know, if they were even vaguely skilled, they'd at least get a false phone number out of the deal.

但这样他们就能意识到，被拒绝并没有他们想象的那么灾难性。

But then they could lay learn that the rejection wasn't as catastrophic as they thought.

但更重要的是，他们学会了即使面对拒绝，也能继续前进。

But more importantly, they learned that they could continue moving forward in the face of rejection.

所以这让我想到的是智力上的谦逊，以及人们多么固执地坚持自己的信念——如果你坚信自己永远正确，认为外界没有任何东西值得你学习，那么任何承认自己可能错了的行为，都等同于毁灭。嗯。

So the thing that it makes me think about there is intellectual humility and how tightly people hold on to their beliefs that if you believe that you are always going to be right, that there is nothing to learn outside of you, and that any kind of admission that you might be wrong is tantamount to destruction Mhmm.

它带来的影响完全一样。

It does exactly the same thing.

你需要做到的是，敢于提出愚蠢的问题，准备好去问那些看似愚蠢的问题，不要求自己成为房间里最博学的人，但更重要的是，也绝不能成为最愚蠢的人。是的。

You need to and it goes back to, asking stupid questions, being prepared to ask the stupid questions, and look, not like the most informed person in the room, but also importantly, nowhere near the most stupid person in the room Yeah.

因为提出问题的人就是你。

Because you're the one that's asking the question.

房间里最糟糕的人，是那些不知道却不愿提问的人，甚至更糟的是，那些不知道、不愿提问，却装作什么都知道的人。

Person in the room is the person who doesn't know and won't ask, or even worse, who doesn't know and won't ask and acts like they know.

是的

Yeah.

这一点都不好。

That's not good at all.

是的

Yeah.

这里有个‘是的’。

There's a Yeah.

你看，这正是你应当爱敌人的这种观念的一部分。

Your See, that's part of this idea that you should love your enemy.

所以你可能会说，那为什么要这样做呢？

So you might say, well, why should you do that?

因为你的敌人将会是最严厉的批评者。

Well, your enemy is gonna be your harshest critic.

如果你有一个非常好的敌人，他可能会指出你性格中自己都没意识到的缺陷。

Now it's possible that if you have a very good enemy that he will show you flaws in your character that you didn't know were there.