#789 - 尼尔·斯特劳斯 - 为何全球头号搭讪艺术家选择退出游戏

跟我聊聊过去几年你对人际关系看法的演变轨迹。你经历了怎样的故事弧线？

Talk to me about your trajectory of perspective on relationships over the last few years. What's the what's the story arc that you've gone through there?

是啊。我是说，我有自己的私人故事线和公开故事线，它们其实差不多。我就尽量给你讲讲这个弧线吧，本质上我做的和你一样——试图搞懂生活中的各种事。遇到困惑时，我就会做大量研究、和所有人交流，同时积累必要的经验来学习。

Yeah. I mean, there's I have, like, my private story arc and the public story arc, and they're kind of the same. And so I'll just tell you the arc the best I can, which is basically basically what I do is I just try to I the same thing you do. Just try to figure out things in life. And when I get stuck, I just do all the research and talk to all the people as well as have all the experience that I need to to learn.

我人生第一个卡壳的领域就是约会。当时作为给《纽约时报》和《滚石》写音乐专栏，跟着摇滚乐队巡游在各种疯狂堕落场合的人，我却觉得自己像个局外人，看着别人享乐。所以第一本书——其实不是处女作，应该是第三四本——但《把妹达人》大概是最臭名昭著的，那记录了我试图理解约会这件事，并着迷于研究那些搭讪艺术家的世界及其社会影响。

And so the first place I got stuck in my life was just dating. And as a guy who was writing for The New York Times and Rolling Stone about music and around on tour with rock bands, around all kinds of wild decadence, I felt like I was a guy on the outside watching everyone else have all the fun. So the first book obviously, not the first book. Think it's my it's my third or fourth. But The Game was probably the most infamous one, which is me trying to figure out dating and being in this world of and and being fascinated by this world of these pickup artists and the all the social implications of that at that time.

可以说那是我试图解决自己求偶难题的阶段。后来发现，比起下一个问题——恋爱关系，约会简直太容易解决了。人们会抱怨约会不顺，但面对恋爱关系时，他们不止是抱怨。

And so that was me trying to solve the problem, let's say, of courtship in my life. And then, great, dating was a lot easier to solve than the next problem, which is relationships. Right? People complain about their dating issues. When it comes to relationships, they don't just complain.

他们会真正地挣扎、痛苦，陷入充满压力和创伤的封闭困境，几乎无人能真正理解——听别人吐槽糟糕约会很有趣，但听人诉说失败恋情时，多数朋友在一两年后就会厌倦对方反复抱怨同一个问题。结束约会很简单，遇到糟糕对象发条礼貌短信或直接消失就行。

They really struggle, grieve, go into into locked boxes of stress and trauma and confusion that almost no one else can enter because it's fun to hear people talk about their bad dates. But talking about a bad relationship, most friends after one or two or three years of someone experiencing the same problem actually get tired, and this person's stuck in this situation. I mean, it's it's it's tough. It's easy to stop dating someone. You're you have a bad date you have a bad date with someone who's horrible, you just send them a polite text or, I guess, ghost them.

对吧？人们都这么干。但糟糕的恋爱关系要怎么脱身？对方会接受你想离开的边界吗？通常不会。

Right? People do that. But if you have a bad relationship, how do you get out of that? And and does the other person accept your boundary that you wanna leave? Usually, they don't.

通常当他们感到被抛弃时，就会开始纠缠不让离开。即使他们自己也不想维持关系，被拒绝这件事本身就会刺激他们。所以《把妹达人》是简单的部分，而理解恋爱关系——特别是审视我自身的问题、行为模式，甚至当初为何会被搭讪艺术吸引——才是下一阶段。这引导我写了下一本书，而第三本书可能终结于我现在的生活：拥有美满婚姻，成为八岁（现在九岁）孩子的父亲，这感觉棒极了。

Usually, as soon as they feel abandonment, they start chasing you and not letting you leave. Even if even if they don't wanna be in the relationship, that rejection is so much to them. So so the game was the easy book, figuring out the relationship part and especially looking at my own issues and relationships and my own patterns and taking a tough look at myself with relationships and even what drew me to the game and those pickup artists, that was, like, the next step. So that was the next step of the journey, and that's the next book. And maybe the third book is is ended so up through everything I learned, having an awesome marriage, have a father of an eight year old, a nine year old now, and it's like the best.

我还有一段堪称典范的离婚经历，意思是我和儿子的妈妈成了最好的朋友。我觉得我们真的——我热爱共同育儿，看到事情的另一面。说来有趣，我们的离婚如此成功，以至于我们正打算和儿子的妈妈再要一个孩子。

And I also have an amazing divorce, meaning that I'm best friends with my son's mom. I feel like we really are I love co parenting and looking at the other side of how do you and I guess it's such an amazing divorce that we're actually having another child together with my son's mom.

你和前妻虽然不再是传统意义上的夫妻，但因为你们作为父母相处得如此融洽，所以决定再要一个孩子？

Your ex wife and you are no longer together in the traditional sense, but are having another child because of how well you get on as parents?

我认为我们是绝佳的育儿搭档，相处得无比融洽，而且准备好以全新的方式共同开启这段旅程。哇，很有意思对吧？

I think, like, we're great co parents, and I think we get along wonderfully and and and ready to sort of take that journey together in a new way. Wow. Interesting. Right?

这真是闻所未闻。

That is I've never heard of that.

是啊，我知道。挺有趣的——我说这话时看到你表情都变了。

No. I know. It's funny. I saw your face when I said that. And

我研究交配行为多年，这还真是头回听说。多么...多么非理性的视角啊。所以你对前段婚姻的态度是：能做好共同养育者，但未必适合做伴侣？

I've spent a lot of time researching mating behavior, and that's the first time I mean, what a what an irrational way to look at something as so is is your perspective around your previous marriage, we work as co parents, but not necessarily as partners?

完全正确。浪漫和性吸引力可能消失了，但我们确实...

Exactly. The romantic and sexual energy may not be there, but but we're really

你打算怎么造这个宝宝？

How are you gonna make the baby?

宝宝已经造好了。

The baby's already made.

好吧。你是怎么造出这个宝宝的？

Okay. How did you make the baby?

大概四个月左右吧。我会告诉你的

So so it's about four months. I'll I'll tell you

用传统方法？

The old school way?

对。我会告诉你细节的。让我先回溯一下，再告诉你我们是怎么走到这一步的。这...这...这会是个有趣的故事，大家可能会有共鸣。

Yeah. I'll tell you about that. I'll tell you about that. Let me let me backtrack for one second, and then I'll tell you I'll tell you how we got there. It's it's it's, people are gonna have people may have it'll be interesting.

我很乐意分享。但请先让我谈谈离婚这件事，因为我始终对当下生活与过往经历的对比着迷。我深思过这个问题，却鲜少听人讨论。根据我对创伤和离婚的认知——父母离异时相互攻击固然会伤害孩子，但父母勉强维持婚姻却终日争吵，同样会给孩子带来痛苦。

I'll tell you that. I'm I'm happy to share. But let let me let me talk about the divorce for one second because, like, I'm again, I'm always fascinated by what is happening in my life now versus what already happened. And I thought about this a lot, and I haven't heard people talk about this. But learning everything I did about trauma, divorce, I mean, I think it can be it's tough if you're a child of a divorce where their parents are fighting with each other, but it's also tough if you're a child of parents who aren't divorced and fighting with each other.

你至少不希望父母在你面前争吵。所以当我们离婚时，我在想，如何让这件事在那个人的生活中——也就是我们孩子的生活中——变成一种积极的体验？我认为他需要几样东西。首先，这必须是对他生活的增值，而不是被剥夺了什么。那么这意味着什么呢？

You just don't want parents fighting with each other in front of you, at least. So when we got divorced, I thought, well, how do I make this a positive experience in that person's life, meaning our child's life? And I thought he needs a couple things. One is one is that it has to be a value add to his life, not something being taken away. So what does that mean?

对他来说，他有个朋友最近搬了新家，他觉得那房子很棒。于是我说，你想不想要两套房子？他说只要一套。现在你就要有两套房子了。我记得我们当时让他惊喜坏了。

So for him, he had a friend who recently moved to a new house, and he thought that house was cool. So I said, how would you like two houses? He said, just one house. You're gonna get two houses now. And I remember we tripped him off.

我和他妈妈一起带他去看新房子。我记得他下车时兴奋极了，开心得不得了。我当时就想，天啊，我们做对了。我觉得人们常犯的错误——当然这本身没错——

Me and his mom brought him together to the new house. And I remember he got out the car, he was so excited. He was just so happy. I'm like, shit, we're doing this right. I think the mistake and again, there's nothing wrong with it.

就是当你让孩子坐下来时，你是在为坏消息做准备。但这不一定是坏消息。如果你们俩都开心（虽然并不总是这样），那其实是好消息。我认为除了增值之外，第二重要的是服务不能中断，这里的服务指的是父母双方的爱。这种爱必须持续甚至更多，这样离婚也能成为孩子生活中的积极经历。

People do what they the best they can is when you sit the child down, you prepare them for bad news. It doesn't have to be bad news. It's great news if it's if you're both happy, which isn't always the case. Then the second thing I think you need besides a value add is no interruption of service, and the service being the love of both parents. And so that has to continue or get bigger, and this can be a positive experience in a child's life.

既然我们觉得自己有个很棒的孩子并且养育得很好，我猜你想让我谈谈这部分。所以...所以我没问题。我从没谈过这事，但我很坦然。我们当时想，好吧，就用常规方式要个孩子吧。

So given that we feel like we have a great child and raised it well, I guess you want me to talk about this part. So so so I'm cool. I'm cool with what I haven't I haven't talked about it. But so we thought, yeah. Let's have a child their regular way.

但说实话，离婚大概是五、六年前的事了？我们现在居然在庆祝离婚纪念日。本来要聊感情和约会的，结果全在说离婚。

But, literally, maybe the divorce was maybe five, six, five years ago. We actually celebrate our anniversary. Like, this is all gonna be about divorce. You're like, you're gonna talk about relationships and dating, and now we're just talking about divorce.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

不过，是的，我们庆祝了这个纪念日，意思是说我认为结束一段关系比开始一段关系更难。

But, yeah, we celebrated the anniversary, meaning that I think getting out of a relationship is harder than getting into one.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？所以我们应该庆祝我们能够以充满同理心的方式结束它。昨晚是我们的D纪念日，所以我们和我们的儿子一起庆祝了。

Right? And so we should celebrate the fact that we're able to, like, compassionately get out of it. So last last night was our D anniversary, so we celebrated together with with with with our son.

哇。好吧。是的。跟我说说你是怎么造出这个宝宝的。

Wow. Okay. Yeah. To me about how you made the baby.

好的。明白了。我知道。我一直在精心准备

Okay. Got it. I know. I've I've been crafting

很多。我会继续推动你的。

a lot. I'm gonna keep pushing you.

是的。所以，是的。所以这是最疯狂的事情。我觉得我会因此受到一些指责，但我对此无所谓。事情就是这样，也许我不会。

Yes. So yeah. So so this is the craziest thing. I feel like I'm gonna get some shit over this, but I'm I'm fine with it. It is it is what it is, or maybe I won't.

我不知道。但我觉得有些人带着某种既定叙事，无论我做什么都无法符合任何人的期待。这似乎成了我人生的模式。所以我们想，那就用传统方式要孩子吧，但感觉又很怪。真的，她就像我妹妹一样。

I don't know. But I feel like there's people out there with a certain narrative, nothing I do will fit anyone's narrative. It's kind of the pattern of my life. But so we thought, well, we're just gonna have the baby the old fashioned way, and then it just kinda felt weird. Like, literally, she's like my sister.

我们简直是最好的朋友。所以和挚友或姐妹做那种事感觉很奇怪。有时候就是缺乏那种冲动。于是...浴室里用注射器搞定。对，就着杯子。

We're literally like best friends. And that and so it just felt it just felt weird doing that with your best friend or your sister. Sometimes that energy is just not there. And so so syringe in the bathroom Okay. With a cup.

没错。她去了隔壁房间用注射器操作。嗯。一次就成功了，简直不可思议。

Yep. She she went in the other room and syringed it up. Mhmm. One shot and it took. It was the craziest thing.

反应大概是：哇！你们居然用火鸡注射器...

Was like Wow. You went turkey

我们真就用火鸡注射器试了一次，就那一次。

We literally went turkey baster in just one time for just once.

这生育力太吓人了。离我远点。

Terrifyingly fertile. Stay away from me.

是啊。

Yes.

我不想怀孕。

I don't wanna be pregnant.

对，没错，完全正确。但这让我意识到，别人用你的东西让自己怀孕有多容易。

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But but it's but it made me realize how easy it would be for somebody to just get themselves pregnant with your stuff.

哦，是的。我是说，我不否认。我觉得现在甚至有个TikTok视频在流传，讲如何设陷阱套住男人，你能做什么。我总是对TikTok上的东西持怀疑态度，因为我在想，这是不是又一个阴谋论？还是有人为了走红而说些完全疯狂的话？

Oh, yeah. I mean, do not disagree. I think there's even now a a there was a video going around on TikTok about how to sort of entrap a man like, what you can do. And I always I'm always so skeptical about stuff on TikTok because I think, this just a conspiracy of a conspiracy? Like, is this someone trying to go viral by saying something that's absolutely insane?

是啊。

Yeah.

但没错，这绝对是个风险。我是说，你用一个杯子和一个火鸡注射器就做到了。

But, yeah, that's definitely a risk. That is I mean, you managed to do it with one one cup and a turkey baster.

所以对。所以有人可以轻易...是的，轻而易举...我直到那一刻才意识到...

So Yeah. So someone could easily Yep. Easily easily I I just didn't realize till that moment how

危险重重。

Perilous.

怎么说呢，对，怎么说呢。我们应该小心处理这些事情。

How, yeah, how yeah. That we should take care with stuff.

那么跟我聊聊贯穿所有这些经历的共同线索，从

So talk to me about the common thread through all of those experiences going from

顺便谢谢你转移话题。当然。是的。这是我们确实偏离正题的一个特点。

Thank you for changing the subject, by the way. Of course. Yes. It's a feature we really it's really went out of a tangent.

完全没有。但你有《盗梦空间》游戏、Pickup，涉及求爱、约会、认可和一些随意的事情。然后你有真相、整合、关系、爱情、解构创伤，接着转向非一夫一妻制，又转回来，再转向离婚。这其中有什么

Not at all. But you have you have Inception, the game, Pickup, it's sort of courtship and and and dating and validation and and sort of casual stuff. Then you have the truth. You have, integration, relationships, love, unpacking trauma, then a pivot out of that into sort of non monogamy, then a pivot back into that, then the pivot into divorce. Like, is there a

所以我不认为有什么是转折点。对。或品牌。对。顺便说，在这些之间，我写了一本书，现在感觉悲剧性地应景，叫《紧急情况》，主要是学习生存的其他技能。比如，当事情变得糟糕时——生存主义者社区甚至有个缩写词来形容这种情况。

So I see nothing as a pivot Yep. Or as a brand. Yep. And and meaning by the way, in between those, I did a book which feels like tragically relevant now called emergency, which is really about learning some the other skill of survival. Like, when the shit hits the fan there's even an acronym for it in that survivalist community.

对吧？当事情变得糟糕时，你该怎么办？如何自救？如何救你的家人？所以这些之间的另一部分可能是意识到，嗯，你希望能够保护你的家人，你希望能够安全，你不想成为历史的受害者，而历史正在当下发生。

Right? When the shit hits the fan, what do you do? How do you save yourself? How do you save your family? So the other piece probably between these things was realizing that, well, you you wanna be able to protect your family, and you wanna be able to be safe, and you wanna be you don't wanna be a victim of history, and history is happening right now.

所以这实际上是关于如何尽力自给自足，不依赖这个系统生活。

So it's really about how do you, do your best to be self sufficient and not live not depend on the system.

我们都知道塔克·马克思，他是末日准备者乐观主义的终极克星。对，就在离这儿大概30英里的地方，囤积了上百万发弹药。是啊。那个共同点是什么来着？

We both know Tucker Max, who is ultimate doom of prepper optimism man Yeah. Only maybe 30 miles from here with a million rounds of ammunition. Yeah. What is the what was the common The

威胁其实就像是人生有不同的阶段，我们都会经历。我只是尽力在当我成长的方式、学到的知识或认知不再适用时，去理解这些阶段。所以如果我卡住了，我就把它变成一个项目。如果项目成功了，我就写成一本书。嗯。有些项目我开始了，但要么没成功，要么我失去了兴趣没完成，要么最后没有重大顿悟，也就没写成书，或者觉得不值得分享。

threat the is the threat is literally just like there are stages of life that we go through, and I'm just doing my best to figure them out when, like, the way I was raised or what I learned or what I know don't hold up for me. So if I get stuck, I make it a project. And if the project's successful, I make it a book. Mhmm. And so there's some projects I started that either they weren't successful or I just lost interest and didn't take them all the way, or I didn't get a big big epiphany at the end, and I didn't make that a book, or it didn't feel like worth sharing.

对你来说，放下过去的自己、那些旧的身份困难吗？你知道，那场游戏曾是一个文化现象，现在你成了把妹达人，尽管你当时更像是在做人类学观察，基本上是踏入那个世界，观察发生的事情，回来告诉大家。尤其是当公众对你有期待时，放下过去的版本有多难？

Was it difficult or has it been difficult for you to let go of the past versions of you, those previous identities? You know, the game was such a sort of cultural moment that you're now the pickup guy, even though you were kind of a like, you were doing anthropological observation, basically, of this world stepping in, observing what was happening, coming back, and telling everyone. How difficult is it to let go of the previous versions of you, especially when the public has an expectation?

对我来说超级简单，对别人来说很难。为什么？因为，就像，事情已经结束了。真的，如果我有一段经历，然后写了一本书，那就是我对那段经历最好的讲述和最好的版本了，然后我就继续生活的其他部分。我觉得这居然会让人惊讶很有趣，因为如果被困在二十年前我是谁、我认为什么是对的版本里，然后一直推销那个，那才是个悲剧。

I mean, super easy for me, hard for other people. Why? Because, like, it's done. Like like, literally, if I if I have an experience and then I write a book about it, that's my best that's my best telling and my best version of that experience, and then I move on to the rest of it and move on with the rest of my life. I think it's funny that it's surprising at all because how it would be a tragedy to get stuck in a version of who I was and what I thought was right twenty years ago or whatever it is and then keep marketing that.

我真的觉得人们试图给自己打标签。对吧？他们是那个——我甚至在看你的一个播客时，有个人总是那个什么什么的。对吧？

I really feel that people try to brand themselves. Right? They're the they're the I I was even looking at one of your podcasts. There was, like, someone who was the they're always the something something. Right?

那个激素巫师或者什么的。对。好吧。是啊。是啊。是啊。

The the hormone wizard or the Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

装饰大师或者那个

Decorating guru or or the

减脂魔术师。

The fat loss magician.

没错。没错。然后，就像歌手莱昂纳德·科恩在一个音乐节上说的那样，当时现场简直失控了，年轻人都在肆意狂欢——我们的文化总是会陷入这种时刻。

Exactly. Exactly. And then, like but there's a great saying from Leonard Cohen, the the songwriter, and he was speaking at a music festival, and the music festival was like just it was going off the rail. It was just the kids were going off the rails and very similar. Our culture always goes to these moments.

你看，当下这个时代总会出现这些惊人的时刻。他当时说了句名言：‘那些与时代精神结为连理的人，注定要在下一个时代沦为寡妇。’

There's you know, right now, we're we're we have the there's always these amazing moments. And he goes he said this great quote. He said, those who are married to the spirit of their generation are doomed to become widows in the next.

你如何理解这句话？

What does that mean to you?

意思是如果你固守某个立场宣称‘这就是真理’，但世界在进化，嗯，生命在进化，而你会被困在过去。

What that means is if you you just plant your flag and you say this is it, guess what? You keep evolving. The world keeps evolving. Mhmm. Life keeps evolving, and you're stuck in the past.

我见过不少人曾狂热推崇某种健康理念，后来自己都不信了、也不那样饮食了，却因粉丝群体的期待而继续表演。结果就是人格分裂。

I've certainly sat there with people who had a big health message that they were really tied to, who no longer believed it, no longer ate that way, but because they have a certain following that expects that, they keep doing that. What happens is you get a split in yourself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？你嘴上说一套，做的却是另一套。我认为归根结底，最重要的目标是要接纳真实的自己。如果你是个伪君子，或者还在宣扬自己早已不再相信的东西，内心深处怎么可能真正喜欢自己呢？你和嘉宾们反复强调的，不就是选择自由吗？如果某件事做成功了，观众就开始期待，然后你开始迎合他们——这根本就不是自由。

Right? And you're saying one thing while doing another, and that and I think, ultimately, the goal at the end of the day is to just like yourself. Right? And you're not gonna like yourself deep down if you're a hypocrite or or if you're still saying something you no longer believe or moved on for because you're like, so much of what you talk about, so much of what your guests talk about is just having freedom of choice. And if you're if you do one thing that's successful and then your audience expects that and then you start catering to them, like, you're you're not free.

这种活法太可悲了。

It's a horrible way to live.

是啊。你还会开始怨恨身边的人，甚至是你的观众。

Yeah. And you will begin to resent the people around you as well or the audience that you have.

而且这行不通。根本行不通。

And it doesn't work. And it doesn't work.

人们能看穿这种把戏。

And people can see through it.

我常说，观众只会期待你重复过去的表演，因为他们不知道你接下来要做什么。所以大胆给他们惊喜吧。我始终告诫自己不要害怕追随内心的召唤，只要真心投入并全力以赴，作品自然会找到对的观众——无论是现有观众还是新受众。我从不为这个患得患失。

I always say, like, your audience only expects what you've done before because they don't know what you're gonna do next. So they just they don't know that, and so surprise them and give it to them. And I'd like, I think I've tried to never be afraid to move in whatever direction I feel called to, and trust that if I just care about it and I do my best, that it's gonna find its right audience, whether it's my audience or another audience. I don't think that way.

你是依靠什么来持续保持这种本真，让精神追求与现实路径始终一致的呢？毕竟人很容易被束缚住。就像我发现谈论生酮饮食能赚钱，就永远当个'生酮专家'——很多人并非出于算计，只是恐惧重塑自我。当你面临人生新阶段时，有什么方法能帮你守住本心吗？

Is this something that you rely on to continually prioritize that sort of authenticity and that linear path from spirit to to sort of world? Because people do get captured, you know. And it's it's not like they're all doing it because I've I've found that talking about keto means that I can make some money, and therefore, I'm gonna be the keto guy. There's just a fear of becoming someone new. Is Is there something that you rely on to help you stay authentic when you're looking at moving on to the next phase of life?

我想说这更像是疯狂之举，而非我所依赖或常做的事。我认为这是我所有未做之事的累积结果。对吧？所以我觉得你无需刻意做什么，只需放下对故事的执念——关于你自以为是谁的故事、他人眼中你的故事、以及所谓有效方法的故事。因为事实上，这些故事根本都不奏效。

I I would say it's more nuts it's more not something I rely on or something I do. I think it's a it's a culmination of all the things I don't do. Right? So so and what I and and I and so I think there's nothing you have to do, but it's just it's letting go of attachment to stories, the story of who you think you are, the story of what other people think you are, the story of what supposedly works. Because the fact is none of those stories even work.

你明白我的意思吗？就像最终你重复着同样的信息，人们会感到厌倦并逐渐离开。它变得可预测，或者让你显得过时落伍。所以我甚至不认为这些策略对人们真正有效。顺便说一句，有些人确实只有一个核心信息要传达，这让他们感到充实。

You know what I mean? Like like, eventually, you're saying the same message and people get bored of it and sort of move on. It becomes predictable, or you just seem like you're in the past or behind the times or something. So I don't even think those strategies really work for people. And by the way, side note, there are some kinds of people who really have one message, and that's their message they wanna share, and that fulfills them.

我确实遇到过这样的人，想必你的播客嘉宾里也有——他们只有一个真诚的信息要传递，不像你我或你的许多嘉宾那样充满好奇心。这对他们很真实，这很酷。但关键在于忠于自我，并优先尊重这一点。

I've certainly met people, I'm sure you have on this podcast, who really have one message to say, and that's really authentic to them, and they don't have this curiosity that you and I have and so many of your guests have. And that's true to them, but and and that's cool. Right? But I think it's just about being true to yourself and, like, honoring that above all.

是啊。想想从游戏到真相的转变，比如'X玩家选择一夫一妻制'就是个便利的文化叙事，非常适合当新闻标题。

Yeah. I mean, even thinking about the transition from the game to the truth, like, x player chooses monogamy is a very convenient cultural narrative. It makes a makes for a great headline.

这些...这些都是我们玩的游戏。对吧？所以那本书根本不是讲这个。你在谈论真相，当然当时的叙事是'把妹达人选择一夫一妻'。但那本书与把妹艺术毫无关系，最终结果也无关一夫一妻制。

Which which is which and which and because they're they're games we play. Right? So that isn't what the book about is about. So you're talking about the truth, and and for sure, the narrative was pickup artist chooses monogamy. But the book had nothing to with being pickup artist, and the end result wasn't about monogamy.

它真正关于的是选择。书的核心理念是：如果你不健康，无论选择何种关系模式都会不健康——无论一夫一妻制、多边恋、道德非单配偶制等等。如果你健康，任何选择都会健康。所以关键在于放下'这个正确那个错误'的执念。关系可以进化，你们可能决定开放关系，也可能决定收束并专注彼此。

It was about it was about really choosing And the message of the book is if you're unhealthy, any relationship style you choose is gonna be unhealthy, whether it's monogamy or polyamory or ethical monogamy or whatever what have you. And if you're healthy, whatever you choose is gonna be healthy. Right? So it's really about letting go of our attachments to this is right or that is right. In other words, you can be in a relationship and it can evolve, and you might decide maybe it's time to evolve and open it up, and maybe it's time to shut it down and really be committed to each other.

我认为关系本质上是协商与对话的过程。

And I think a relationship is a negotiation and a discussion.

另一则消息，本期节目由AG One赞助播出。90%的美国人日常未能摄取维持健康所需的足够营养。众所周知，食物永远是第一位的。我们中许多人某些日子、甚至大多数日子吃得不错，但没有人能做到饮食完美。种种迹象表明，我们的身体需要更多营养，并且需要每日持续补充，才能构建真正健康的体魄。AG one一站式提供每日营养与肠道健康支持。

In other news, this episode is brought to you by AG One. 90% of Americans are not getting the nutrients they need every day to be healthy. Everybody knows that food is always first. Many of us will eat well some days, even most days, but no one has the perfect diet, and signs keep showing us our bodies need more nutrients and they need this support consistently every single day to build a truly healthy body. AG one provides daily nutrients and gut health support all in one.

无需纠结。一个真正有效的解决方案。人们总关心价格问题。让我们换个角度思考——下次当你排队购买12美元的冰沙或果汁时，不妨想想AG1，问问自己哪个更物有所值。

No confusion. One thing that works and works for you. People always ask about the price. Let's flip the question. The next time that you're in line for a smoothie or a juice and it says $12, just think about AG1 and ask which is better value.

我长期与AG1合作，因为他们生产的产品质量顶尖，让我每天都真心期待服用。如果你想取代复合维生素及其他补充剂，就从AG1开始吧。今日尝试AG1，首单即享全年免费维生素D3+K2组合，外加五份AG1旅行装。通过节目备注中的链接或访问drinkag1.com/wisdom即可获取。网址是drinkag1.com/wisdom。你认为当代婚恋文化是否与我们进化形成的心理机制相冲突？

I've partnered with AG1 for so long because they make the highest quality product that I genuinely look forward to taking every day. So if you want to replace your multivitamin and more, start with a g one. Try a g one today and get a year's free supply of vitamin d three and k two plus five free a g one travel packs with your first purchase by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinkag1.com/wisdom. That's drinkag1.com/wisdom. Do you think our current mating culture is at odds with our evolved psychology?

请详细阐述一下这个问题。

Elaborate on that question a little bit.

从祖先遗传来看，我们似乎采取的是'轻度一夫一妻制'或'序列式一夫一妻制'的交配策略。这个周期大约在四到七年之间——足够让一个孩子达到能量自主阶段，他们可以独立照顾自己，之后你和伴侣就会分道扬镳。然而我们身处这样一种文化：尽管允许甚至经常鼓励随意性行为，但一旦涉及孩子，就仿佛你们应该终生相守。

We have what seems to be ancestrally a monogamish or serially monogamal monogamous approach to to mating. That but somewhere between four and seven years, that's kind of the cycle. It's enough to get a child to be, energy independent. They can go off and look after themselves, and then you and your partner are going to go separate ways. Yet, we live in a culture that, even though casual sex is allowed, and even though casual sex is often promoted, I think when children come into the picture, it's like you're supposed to be together for life.

这种结合被赋予了神圣性。我们正处于浪漫思潮的合流时代。你知道，这不再是因为邻居家养牛你家养羊，子女联姻就能合并土地那样的旧观念了。

There's something sacred about this union. We have confluent, the confluent era of romance. You know, it's not because your next door neighbor has cows and you have goats. And then if your son marries their daughter, then, you know, you can combine your lands together or something like that.

那个词是叫'合流'吗？

Is that is that is the word for that confluent?

最近的一个时代是汇流时代。没错，我节目里那位杰出的研究者对历代浪漫传统做了文化评估，他认为我们现在正处于这个时代——只要彼此受益，关系就能持续。一旦任何一方停止受益，我们就分道扬镳。

So the most recent the most recent era is the confluent era. So Right. This phenomenal researcher that I had on the show who has done a a cultural assessment of romantic traditions throughout the ages, And the confluent era is what he says we're in now, which is, we can be in a relationship for as long as you benefit me and I benefit you. And if either of us stop benefiting each other, then we go our separate ways.

这就是我们所在的时代？

That that's the era we're in?

这是他定义的当代特征。

That's the era that he's defined it as.

我听过另一个相关理论很有意思——虽然我还在消化。我采访过《婚姻史》作者斯蒂芬妮·孔茨，她认为我们从你所说的劳动力补充、继承权等功能性婚姻，演变到以爱为基础，如今已进入自主定制阶段。

Here's another theory on that that I heard. I think that's interesting. I don't know about I don't I'll just I'm thinking on that. Mhmm. So I interviewed Stephanie Kuntz who wrote a book, A History of Marriage, and her take on it is, you know, we kinda went from, you know, what you were saying that it was this, you know, extra workers and inheritance rights and things like that to this idea of love to now she sees as a pick and choose thing.

我自己就是活例子：要不要孩子？要不要一夫一妻制？未婚生子还是婚内生育？我们像在填写 checklist，可以自由设计想要的关系模式。

And I'm because I guess I'm an example of that, which is like, okay. Do I want kids or not want kids? Do want monogamy, or do I want not want monogamy? Do I want don't want kids without marriage or kids with marriage? Don't want we sort of have this checklist, and we can kind of design the thing that we want.

比如我选择未婚生育。她称之为'自主选择时代'（虽然不确定专业术语），这比'互利则合，无利则散'的汇流理论更贴切——后者听起来像旧时代'增加劳动力分工'的功利逻辑。

In my case, like, okay. I'm having a child but without the marriage, you know, and I think so she sees it as this sort of pick and choose era. And I don't if there's a name for it or word for it, but that feels more right to me than the kind of fluent thing is like, I'm with you as long as you serve me, and I serve you, and then we move on. That almost sounds like what it was before when it was like, well, it serves me to have, more more workers in a division of of labor.

但你也知道，更多选择未必更幸福。选择悖论很关键——如果只有单一关系模式反而简单。

Well, you also know that more choices don't necessarily make us happier. Like, the paradox of choice is a big deal. Yeah. If it's like, okay. Here is the one relationship style that people go for.

这是它的方向所在。你有一个这么多人口的村庄。选择的限制实际上在很多方面促进了满足感。

This is the direction that it's in. You have village of this many people. Constraints on choice actually enable satisfaction in many ways.

哦，完全同意。我是说，想象一下如果我们处于包办婚姻中，假设没有情感或身体上的虐待，我们会想方设法让这段关系成功。以你我的思维方式——我一直说'你我'是因为我觉得我们在学习成长型思维上很相似——你会想，好吧，我会让它成功的。

Oh, totally. I mean, think if we were if there were arranged marriages, we're like and and, again, assuming there's no emotional or physical abuse, like, we'd be like, let's find a way to make this work. You and I with our our minds, and I keep saying you and I because I think we think similarly in terms of, like, having this learning growth mindset. You're like, okay. I'm gonna make it work.

我会调整自己，看看如何解决问题。所以我完全认同你关于选择悖论的观点，这正是当前婚恋世界面临的挑战——有太多交友应用，它们向你推送无数人，导致人们无形中把自己排除在游戏之外，成了不停约会的'连续约会者'，只为追求那种快速认可。而我们在应用中遇到的更有趣的现象是（虽然我们话题跳来跳去把恋爱/婚姻/离婚倒着聊了），让我着迷的是——我曾见过Tinder的一位联合创始人，他说部分创业动机是读了《把妹达人》后觉得：

I'm gonna adjust myself. I'm gonna see how we can work it out. So for sure, I think I agree with you on the paradox of choice, and that's certainly the challenge we're having now court in the courtship world as far as there's just so many apps, and these apps are throwing so many people at you that people are pricing themselves out of the game in the sense that mean, they're just serial daters who go on dates literally all the time, and that's just what they do because they like that quick validation. And then the thing you're dealing the interesting thing we're dealing with on the apps as far as this goes, and I realize we're jumping all over the courtship relationship divorce for doing it all backwards. But, but the interesting thing about apps I find so fascinating I met one of the this I met one of the cofounders at Tinder who reached out to me, and he says, you know, part of the reason we started this app was because I read the game.

'天啊，这太费劲了。如果直接知道谁对你有好感再开始不是更好吗？'这很有趣，但就像你说的，现在婚恋就像处理行政工作。招聘也是同理：发布职位广告很麻烦，因为同一批难以雇佣的人总在求职池里打转。

And I thought, oh, that's so much work. Wouldn't it be nicer if you just already knew when someone was attracted to you and can take it from there? So it's it's interesting, but I think it's like you said, I think it it is a lot of admin. But the other thing is if you're hiring for a job, it's tough if you if you put a ad out because the same unemployable people keep circling the job pool. Right?

他们干几个月就被解雇或找不到工作。交友应用也一样，很多'不适合约会'的人不断循环出现。如果你经常用这些应用，很容易对前景感到悲观。

They get a job for a couple months and they get let go or they can't find a job. The same is true of the dating apps. A lot of the same undateable people keep circulating and circulating and circulating. So if you're on them regularly, it's easy to get cynical about your prospects.

你知道LMS吗？不知道？就是Lux（奢侈）、Money（金钱）、Status（地位）。

Are you familiar with LMS? Do you know what that is? No. Lux money status.

等等，这说得通。

Wait. It makes sense.

好的。这就是黑色药丸运动中很多人依赖并认为最重要的分诊优先级列表。奢侈生活最重要，其次是金钱，然后是地位。

Okay. So it's the, triage priority list that a lot of guys in the black pill movement rely on and say is most important. Lux is most important, then money, then status.

对男性而言？

For men?

是的。对男性。你怎么看？

Yes. For men. What's your thoughts?

我的看法是，这种思维方式很可悲。真的很可悲。我猜，我只是在自言自语。我对你说的这些有很多想法。但回应你关于‘成为某种人是什么感觉’的说法，我认为我们大多活在自己对生活的解读中。

My thoughts is it's like it's a sad way to think. It's a sad it's a sad way to think. And I I guess, like, I'm just I'm just kinda thinking out loud. I got a bunch of thoughts on the the stuff you're saying. But to speak back to your to speak back to your what what you were saying about what it's like to be someone, I think, like I think mostly we're all living our own stories of what it's like.

而且我觉得，如果你选择看到人们最好的一面，你就会注意到最好的行为。如果你选择看到最坏的一面，你就会注意到最坏的行为。我认为这始于你观察世界的视角。所以说到外貌、金钱、地位，我

And I think, like, if you choose to see the best in people, you're gonna notice the best behavior. If you choose to see the worst in people, you're gonna notice the worst worst behavior. And I think you're it starts with the eyes you're seeing the world through. And so down to looks money status, I

认为我是说，我

think that I mean, I

觉得地位...我可能认为他们搞错了。我觉得...我觉得他们如何定义地位？我想我得问问你。

think stat I would probably I think they got it wrong. I I think that I think that there there's that and how would they define status? I guess I'll ask you.

我可不敢太确定。我猜大概是受欢迎程度之类的。对吧。

I wouldn't be too sure. I would guess something like popularity. Right.

所以我认为这是高价值行为的表现。要知道，我之所以明白这点，是因为我在游戏里破解了它——作为一个相貌平平、当时既无名气又无地位、没钱没颜值的普通人。但当我设计出这个游戏后，那些拥有最多颜值、财富和地位的人却开始向我这个说话都不利索的蒜头鼻矮个子寻求建议。我独自面对的困境，他们同样在经历。归根结底，这取决于你给自己讲述的人生剧本，以及你如何演绎这个剧本，远比金钱颜值地位更重要。比如我见过太多拥有这些优势的人却表现出低价值行为：患得患失、自我怀疑、不修边幅、沉默寡言、总在意他人眼光——最终他们得到的一切都会因此流失。

So I I would say it's high status behaviors. And, I mean, I know this because I went and hacked it in the game, right, as a guy who is not that good looking, as a guy, like, who, at least at that time, didn't didn't have any, like you know, wasn't someone recognized, didn't have a lot, didn't have status, didn't have money, didn't have looks, didn't have fame, we realized and I also was a guy who, once I wrote the game, I had the people with the most looks, the most money, the most status calling me like this fucking five six big nose, you know, dude who keeps saying you know and can't even articulate a really clean sentence calling me for advice. The same shit I was taught I was alone dealing with, they were dealing with the same thing. And I think it really goes down to, like, how how you your the story you tell yourself more than money looks in status and then how you reflect that story. As a simple example, I've seen a lot of people with money looks in status engage in low status behaviors, meaning being insecure, being doubtful, not caring themselves well, not speaking, just always being worried about what others thinking about them, and whatever they whatever whatever those gained for them, they lost it.

有首游吟诗说得妙：当人们最初将浪漫升华为艺术时，'眼睛先行寻觅值得推荐给心灵的影像'。金钱颜值地位或许能为你叩开大门，但此后唯有真实的自我才能让你留在门内——除非对方同样自卑，只把这些外在条件当作寻找猎物的标准，试图借此弥补自身创伤获得安全感。抱歉我有点跑题，你继续。

There's a line there's like a troubadour poem that, like, that's something about the when they were first sort of talking about making romance into art, in that era, that's like the eyes the eyes go forth to seek an image which they can then recommend to the heart. And so I think the money looks in status, like, might get your foot in the door. But after that, it's who you are that enables you to stay in that door unless you're dealing with someone who has similarly low self esteem, right, And it's just out there looking for a target who has those things because they've got their own wounds, and they feel like that gives them safety. I think let's go sorry. Go ahead.

有个有趣的现象：很多在2010年代初尝试搭讪技巧的朋友最终对约会世界极度幻灭。他们发现自己为吸引女性必须扮演的形象，与真实自我之间存在巨大鸿沟。他们意识到：'我能得到想要的，但对方看到的并非真实的我'。这种割裂感——比如要编造侏儒打架的荒唐故事、执行标准化的肢体接触、刻意忽视某些反应——让很多人对约会游戏彻底失望。

Just one of the interesting reflections that a lot of friends who maybe in the early twenty tens, were trying to do game and pick up and day game and stuff like that. What they realized was they became quite disenchanted, I think, with the world of dating, because they saw what they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and then realized the distance that that was from who they really were or what they thought they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and realized that I can get what I want, but what I want doesn't actually see me. And that distance between the two of I'm having to tell them about the midget fight outside and do my keynote escalation and ignore the and do all the rest of the stuff, that, I think, caused a lot of them to become very disenfranchised and disenchanted with the world of dating.

确实。我想说几点看法——归根结底还是我们给自己讲述的故事。回顾这段经历，我认为这本质上是神经多样性群体（包括我自己）学习社交的过程，其中混杂着各种积极与消极的因素。

Yeah. I think I mean, a couple couple thoughts. And and to go back so, again, these are, the stories we we tell ourselves. Like, I think that there's a learning process, and maybe you learn if I look back on the game, you know, there's so many different issues around it, negative and positive and everything else. But I see it as a lot of sort of neurodivergent people trying to learn how to socially interact, including myself.

没错。当时的我迫切需要具体指导：该说什么话，身体该怎么倾斜——我那时在人前简直手足无措。

Right? Yep. And so so for me, I needed those little I didn't know. Just tell me what to say, like, how to angle my body. I was so I was so uncomfortable around people.

但掌握基本规则后就能超越它们，就像学习任何技能都要经历从循规蹈矩到融会贯通的过程。对了，我还有三个要点要讲——这些话题实在太有意思了，对吧？

And then once I learned it, then I could let it go the same way you learn anything, which is sort of learning the rules and then throwing throwing them out. Yep. So second I got three points to make. Again, these topics are so interesting. Right?

第二个想法是关于你提到的LMS（学习管理系统）的另一个视角，即人们其实并不知道自己真正想要什么。他们想要的可能是那些背后的东西。举个例子，以前看征婚广告时，看到所有人都要求男方身高六英尺或更高，这严重打击了我的自尊心。你...你有多高？

Second thought is that another perspective on the on the LMS thing you said, which which, the second perspective is people don't know what they want. So they might what they want are the things behind that. So a way to think about, for example, it used to really hurt my self esteem when I read personal ads, and everyone wanted a guy who was six feet or an o and taller. How how how tall are you?

五英尺十英寸。

Five ten.

不错啊。我...我只有五英尺六英寸，撑死五英尺六英寸半。明白吗？

Okay. That's great. Right? I'm I'm I'm I'm five six, you know, pay five six and a half at a stretch. Right?

我花了很长时间才明白，她们真正追求的不是身高。她们想要的是安全感——就像金钱某种程度上代表着什么？代表着安全感和能力。对，就是能力。

And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't height that they were looking for. What they're looking for was safety on the field when they're when it's when maybe like like, what is, let's just say, what does money represent? Money represents at some some degree of, you know, security. Competence. And competence.

就是这个词。完全正确——能力。如果你能看透这些需求背后的本质，并真正具备这些本质特质（这是任何人都可以做到的），那些表面条件就无关紧要了。

That was the word I was looking for. Exactly. Competence. So so if you look at the reasons underneath these and you embody the reasons underneath these, which anybody can do, the other stuff doesn't matter.

是啊。我想那种幻灭感就来源于此——意识到自己缺乏真正的基础，却发现自己可以营造浮华的假象。比如『你不需要知道我有多少钱』，然后突然醒悟：原来只要假装玩这个游戏就能得到想要的。

Yeah. I think that's where the sort of disenchantment came from, which was not feeling like you had the actual foundation, realizing that you could create the glitzy sort of mystique. Like, you do not need to see how much money I have. You do not need to see how much money I have. And then going, oh, I can get what I want by pretending to play this game.

但内心深处，我依然觉得自己配不上。她们看到的不是我本身，而是这个伪装出来的人设。

And deep down, I still don't feel like I'm worthy of it. I don't think that they see Right. Me. What they see is this persona.

当你说‘我不想让你知道我有多穷’时，就像我们之前讨论的那个一边推广素食一边晚餐吃肉的网红。你看，你在自我分裂。另外你提到的这些人，你知道‘控制点’这个概念吗？就是外控型和内控型，我可能说得不太准确，先道个歉。这个理论是说，发生在我身上的事是否该归咎于外界他人——这种想法确实很诱人。

As soon as you're saying, I don't want you know how little money I have, you're like that influencer we were talking about earlier who's promoting a vegan diet while eating meat for dinner. You know, you're you're creating a split in yourself. So here's the other thing you were talking about is I think these people you're talking about do you know the, like, the concept of locus of control? Like, there's external locus of control and internal locus of control, and I'm probably gonna get these wrong, so apology apologies if I do. So the idea is, like, are the things that are happening to me the fault of others outside myself, which is a nice thing to believe.

对吧？就像说‘女人都这样，所以我退出’‘男人都这样，所以我干脆不接触’。整个世界都是别人的问题，我们就这样给自己构建了...

Right? It's just women are like that, thus I'm opting out. Men are like that, thus I'm just not dealing with that. The world you know? And so we're just saying we're creating this this.

全是别人的错，所以我无需改变。我只要憎恨他们就行。嗯哼，对吧？或者选择B，像我们这类人会想：现在这个情况...

It's everybody else's fault, so I don't have to change. I can just hate on them. Mhmm. Right? Or b, the way I am and the way I think you are is that, like, this is going on.

我该如何改进？如何改变自己？如何做得更好？如何理解他人？如何培养共情力？

How can I do better? How can I change? How can I be better? How can I understand? How can I be empathic?

虽然这么做辛苦得多，但老兄，你会快乐得多。

And, like, it's a lot more work, but, man, you're a lot happier.

是啊。从愤世嫉俗者的角度看，不尝试的好处是永远不必承受失败的痛苦。这就是我提出的‘犬儒主义安全毯’概念——本质上就是这种心理机制存在的缘由。

Yeah. I think the benefit from the cynic's perspective, the benefit of never trying is never having to feel the pain of failure. Yeah. That's I came up with this idea called the cynicism safety blanket, which is basically that. That's what that that that's why it exists.

这是存在主义层面的酸葡萄心理。

It's sour grapes at an existential level.

是的。所以我注意到自己，如果我开始——甚至现在都不再这样做了，因为我已经戒掉了——比如，如果我开始对某个成功人士产生负面想法，拿他们的作品与我的比较，想着为什么我的不如他们，我会立刻停下来，转而思考：我能从中学到什么？而且，我觉得你们大多数听众都是具备成长型思维的。

Yeah. And so I noticed myself, if I ever start to and I don't even do this anymore because I stopped it. Like, if I ever start thinking something negatively about someone who's successful and start comparing their work to mine and why mine you know, I just stop instantly, and I just think, you know, what can I learn from that for myself? And, again, most of your listeners, feel like, are learning growth minded

人。

people.

但我觉得我们能理解，有些人——我就遇到过——当别人比你优秀时，你要么努力超越，要么试图把对方

But I think we can understand that there's certain people, and I've come across them, that if you're if somebody is doing better than you, you can either try to do better or you can try to bring them

拉低

down

到你的水平。这就像是世界的分水岭，但那些试图贬低他人的人，现在却是声音最响的群体。

to your level. That's like that's a split in the world, but the people who try to bring them down are the loud voices right now

没错。

Correct.

在这个文化环境下。

In the culture.

没错。那么你现在还在运营男性团体吗？

Correct. So you do you still run a men's group?

不运营了。我曾经运营过一段时间，但现在基本不做了。

No. I I did for a while, and now I just sort of do not really.

好的。不过你一直与男性成长工作有所关联。

Okay. Yeah. But you've been tangential to men's work y

是的。我目前作为一个参与者加入了一个男性团体。

things. In a men I'm in a men's group as a as a

参与者身份。

Participant.

对。

Yeah.

明白了。考虑到近二十年来，你以不同形式观察男性在情感、人际关系、灵性、心理和治疗层面的发展，你如何看待当前男性友谊、心理健康、男子气概和角色模范的现状？这是个常见话题。你对于当下男性处境有何见解？

Yeah. Okay. So given the fact that for best part of twenty years now, you've been in one form or another observing men's development emotionally, relationally, spiritually, psychologically, therapeutically, What do you make of the current state of men's friendships, mental health, masculinity, role models? It's a very common talking point. What what's your perspective on where men are at at the moment?

是的。我在播客里听过你讨论过一些，但出于好奇，你现在对此的简要看法是什么？

Yeah. I've heard I've heard you talk about it a bit on the podcast, but what's your kinda take now in a nutshell out of curiosity?

我认为男性正在被迫为一个他们当下并不觉得自己属于其中的父权制的罪过付出代价。他们被告知自己多么有特权，多么幸运能拥有所有这些不同的优势。当然，顶层确实存在例外，像埃隆·马斯克、贝索斯这样的世界级人物，NBA、NFL球员。但我不认为这完全代表了男性的普遍经历，我觉得很多男性感到他们的忧虑被一个抱怨阶层——那种喋喋不休的阶层——轻易地忽视了。与此同时，自杀、抑郁、缺乏朋友、孤独、无性生活、健康问题，所有这些我们知道的男性面临的问题。

I think that men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they no longer feel like they're a part of at the moment. They're being told how privileged they are and how fortunate they are to have all of these different advantages. And quite rightly, there are outliers at the top, the Elon Musks, the Bezoses of the world, the NBA players, the NFL players. But I don't think that that fully captures the male experience, and I think that a lot of men don't feel like they're they feel like their worries are being dismissed out of hand by a whining class, this sort of chattering class. Meanwhile, suicide, depression, friendlessness, loneliness, sexlessness, health, all of the problems that we know that men have.

我认为这让他们对世界感到非常愤懑，因为他们想说的是：我在受苦，而你们不在乎，所以去你的吧。我不会再按你们的规则玩了。

And I think that it's making them feel quite embittered toward the world because what they're saying is, I'm suffering, and you don't care, so fuck you. I'm not gonna play your game.

对。那么在这个故事里，‘你们’指的是谁？

Right. And now who in the story is you?

那个故事里的‘你们’是指我？

Who in that story is me?

不。你说‘你们不在乎’，这里的‘你们’指谁？这可能触及我一直在思考的点。

No. You you don't care. When they when you're saying you, who is the you? This might get to the point I was kinda thinking of.

这个世界。

The world.

是的。好吧。所以我认为我们存在这样一种分裂——我们以为世界就是通过设备和电脑接收到的那些信息，而我们不想参与这场游戏。这是一种不健康的思维游戏，误以为网络上喧嚣的声音、推送到我们信息流的TikTok视频、看到的推文就代表了整个文化的信仰。这真的会让我们陷入混乱，我在我们做的那期精彩的JK·罗琳播客中也看到你讨论过这个问题。

Yes. Okay. So I think we had this split that we think the world is the stuff we receive, you know, from our devices and from our computers, and and that's a game we don't wanna play. So there's an unhealthy game of thinking that the voices that are loud online and the, you know, the TikToks that get fed into our feed and the tweets we see are somehow the belief of the culture. And and and it can really mess us up, and and I've I've I've seen you had on the podcast when we did that wonderful JK Rowling podcast.

有些人就像完全被吸进了这个漩涡，现在她完全活在自己创伤的阴影下。我想强调的是，仅仅倾听这些声音并误以为它们代表整个文化或大众观点，就可能让你偏离正轨。这不过是无数故事中的一个，如果你缺乏稳固的自我认知，或者它触发了你的个人创伤，情况会变得尤为混乱。

And there there's somebody who, like, literally just she just got sucked into this sucked into this hole, and she's now living her life out of her trauma that was again, I'm just really smart talking about that that you can get you can get taken off course by just listening to these voices and thinking that the culture thinks it or people think it. It's just one one of many stories out there, and and I think it can get confusing if you have less of a of a grounded sense of self or if it plays into your personal trauma.

我认为当下许多人，尤其是年轻人面临的问题是：互联网就是他们的全部体验与现实。如果每天花六到八小时盯着屏幕刷TikTok、Instagram、推特、打游戏，那虚拟世界比现实世界更真实。什么叫他妈的真实世界？这就是我的真实世界。

I think I think the problem that a lot of people, especially young people at the moment, are facing is that their experience is the Internet. Their world is the Internet. You know, if you're spending between six and eight hours a day on screens online, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, video games, that is more real than the real world. What do mean the fucking real world? Like, this is my real world.

我在观察这个世界。那些能反驳主流叙事的反调在哪里？比如其实人们可能真的关心男性困境，可能真的在意我求职受挫、找不到女友、因神经多样性而迷茫、无法维持关系或缺乏朋友等问题。如果你不走进现实世界，就永远看不到这些 alternative storylines（另类叙事）。

You I I'm I'm observing it. Like, what are the where are the countervailing narratives that push back against the fact that maybe people do care about the fact that men are suffering. Maybe people do care about the fact that I'm really struggling to get a job or a girlfriend or I feel I'm neurodivergent and I don't understand what to do. I I can't hold down a a a relationship or I don't have enough friends or whatever it is. Like, if you're not going out there into the real world to see the alternate storylines

没错。这正是关键所在——对这些人来说虚拟就是现实。当它变得如此真实时，危险就真正产生了。而且我认为这种现象正在影响每个人，你明白我的意思吗？

Yeah. And that and I think that's I think that's exactly the point, that it is very real for people. And when it becomes that real, it actually does become dangerous. And and I would say that I would say it's happening to everybody. You know what I mean?

无论你的身份如何，总会有某种攻击向量让你觉得自己做错了、不够好。一旦越界就会遭到严厉打压。正因如此，回归你刚才说的，加入男性互助小组或小规模关怀社区才如此重要——在那里你能获得真实反馈与支持。

Like, it doesn't matter what what your identity is or how you identify yourself. There's some vector of attack that is really making you feel like you're doing it wrong. You're not enough. If you step out of line, you get slapped really, really hard. And and and and, really, that's why it's important, going back to what you said, for me to be in a men's group or for me to be in a world in a in a community of small amount of people who really, really care, who support you in the best way you can, where you can really get that feedback.

你可以坦言：'我在网上看到这些内容，它们让我焦虑。'问题的核心在于，这些都在损害人们的心理健康。我认为有几点很关键：首先要避免陷入受害者叙事，因为所有施害者最初都自认是受害者——看看所有战争，核心叙事永远有个受害者。

And you can say, you know what? I've seen this stuff online, and it's stressing me out in this way. So I think the point being I mean, all these there is a real problem in terms of these are not contributing to anyone's mental health, and and I think a few things are important. I mean, one is to really try to stay out of a victim story to start because once you get into there's that saying, and I think it's the most true thing ever, that all perpetrators perpetrate from a victim position. Mean, look at every war going on, and the main thing is there's a victim.

我并不是在评判对错，但各方都自认为是受害者，对吧？嗯哼。明白吗？这是个有趣的观点。

I'm not saying that whatever's right or wrong, but all sides are the victim. Right? Mhmm. You know? That's an interesting point.

无论是希特勒感觉被围困，还是普京感觉被围困。对吧？我们被敌人包围着。我们就像这样，从受害者立场出发实施行动。所以，第一步是如果你想看清现实，就得停止并跳出受害者叙事，因为人们往往从这里开始。

Whether it's whether Hitler was in encirclement, Putin was encirclement. Right? We're surrounded by enemies. We're the like, so we perpetrate from the victim position. So, like, the first step is if you really wanna get any any reality on it, stop and and get out of the victim story because this is when people start.

这正是导致仇恨的根源，或是让伤害行为变得合理化的起点。但我们可以说周围存在所有这些变量，我们该如何引导这些变量来帮助我们？我认为这些公司假装关心人们却不让算法真正帮助人而是营销给人，这太疯狂了。比如我渴望的是——在资本主义体系运作方式下——如果算法不是想着'我们能卖你什么'，而是'如何改善你的心理健康'会怎样？

That's where that leads to the hate or that makes it okay to sort of perpetrate. But we can say there are all these variables around us, and how can we curate these variables so they help us? And I do think these it's insane. It's wild to me that all these companies that pretend to care about people don't have that algorithms working to actually help people versus market to them. Like, I would love something and and it's to the way the system works in capitalism works, but what if the algorithm was not like, what can we sell you or what can we market to you, but like, how can we improve your mental health?

嗯哼，对吧？我们怎样才能...怎样才能让你...我认为这能造福世界，最终也会培养出更优质的消费者。所以我明白你的意思，我也认同这个观点：我不愿任何人来定义我的身份、该成为什么样的人或该如何表现这种身份。我可能更倾向于用其他因素来定义自己，而非...

Mhmm. Right? How can we how can we make you and and I think that would help the world and actually create better consumers anyway. So so so I hear I hear I hear what you're saying, and I get to the point of view that I don't want to, I don't want anyone to tell me what my identity is, what it should be, how I should be within that identity. I probably identify myself on other factors more than I think a

很多人，尤其是男性，但现在越来越多的女性也如此，他们迷失了。他们不知所措。我们身处一个全新的世界。如果你是千禧一代、Z世代或Alpha世代，你们的父母并不具备在这个世界生存所需的技能或认知。科技原住民意味着什么？

lot of especially guys, but also girls increasingly now, are lost. They don't know. We're in this completely new world. If you're either millennial or Gen Z or Gen A, your parents don't really have the skill set or the awareness to be able to work out how to exist in this world. What does it mean to be technologically native?

生活在一个充满色情内容、Tinder、OnlyFans、各种期待、隆胸手术、巴西臀提升术的世界意味着什么？以这种方式存在究竟代表什么？所以人们寻找原型和榜样是正当的。我需要有人指点迷津。因此我并不反对。

What does it mean to be in a world with porn and Tinder and OnlyFans and and expectations and boob jobs and BBLs and stuff? What does it mean to exist like that? So people are quite rightly looking for archetypes and role models. I want someone to give me some advice to get me out of this. So I don't disagree.

许多人喜欢掌握自主权和人生方向的主宰感。我不需要别人告诉我我是谁、该做什么或怎么做。我想成为自己人生的掌舵者。但另一方面，也有人他妈的需要一些指导——我到底该怎么在这个世界上生存？

Many people like the idea of agency and sovereignty over their own direction. I don't want anybody to tell me who I am or what I should do or the way that I should do it. I want to feel like I am the captain of my own ship. And yet, there are people who also need some fucking guidelines. How am I supposed to exist in the world?

自信意味着什么？我的自尊从何而来？我该在何处寻求认可，又该避免何处？这些问题让人们寻找榜样，但遗憾的是，我认为当今文化能提供的榜样寥寥无几。而这是我的，可以说是

What does it mean to be confident? Where does my self esteem come from? Where should I seek validation and not seek validation? These are questions that people look for role models, and unfortunately, I think culture is just offering up, like, very few. And here's my, like, my

某种

sort of

对未来颇具争议的预测。我认为男性身体畸形恐惧症将超过女性，而女性气质危机将在约二十年内超越男性气质危机。我们正在孕育一代极度脆弱的自恋女性，以及一代对容貌焦虑到难以置信的男性。

spicy meteorological take for the future. I think that male body dysmorphia will overtake female body dysmorphia, and female, crisis of femininity will overtake the crisis of masculinity within the space of about twenty years. I think that we're feeding the seeds of a unbelievably fragile narcissistic generation of women and a unbelievably aesthetically anxious generation of men.

再考虑到人工智能将创造出人类永远无法企及的完美原型。我注意到一方面文化在倡导身体自爱，另一方面AI正在塑造超越现实的完美模板——

And add to this add to this computation, AI is gonna create these archetypes that, like, no human being can live up to a perfection. I was seeing some of the so, like, on one hand, the culture is getting into sort of body posit body positivity. Mhmm. On the other hand, AI is creating these, like, archetypes that go, like, beyond what

连斐波那契黄金比例都相形见绌。对对，我完全明白

Fibonacci sequence perfect ratio. Like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what

你的意思。所以我认为我们...但我的想法是：作为深度阅读爱好者（记得你在另个播客提过阅读），我坚信——

you mean. Yeah. So so it's like I think we're we're we're, but here here's my thought. I think there's there's an I'm I'm a big reader. I think you were talking another podcast about reading, and I love reading.

最近我在读企鹅出版社的《小黑经典》丛书，这套80册的盒子收录了人类三千年文明中最伟大的著作，还有额外40-50本延伸书目。我正在按顺序全部研读。

And right now, I'm reading this amazing so Penguin did a box set of the great books. It's called the Little Black Classics, I think. And it's it's a box set of 80 of the greatest books throughout history of the last, I don't know, three thousand years, and then there's about 40 or 50 books beyond that. I'm I'm going through them all in order. Right?

而我从中学到的是，当我阅读日本僧人兼好（Kenko，忘记他来自哪个世纪，但至少是四五百年前）的文字，到阅读莫扎特与父亲的书信，再到苏格拉底和加缪的作品，你所谈论的这些议题，或许语言不同，但每个人仍在应对相同的问题。苏格拉底的困境在于，人们总在告诉我应该成为什么样的人、该如何行事。我不盲从普遍信仰。那些关于我的谣言甚至都不是真的。你看，他实际上也在处理同样的事情。

And and what I'm learning from it is when I'm reading, about a a monk in Japan, the Kenko, I forget what century he was from, but at least, you know, four or five centuries ago, to reading Mozart's letters with his dad to reading Socrates to reading Camus, these things you're talking about, maybe the language was different, that everyone was still dealing with that. The trouble with Socrates is like, people are telling me who I should be and how I should be. I don't follow the common beliefs. You know, there's all these rumors being spread about me that aren't even true. Like, he's literally, you know, dealing with the same stuff.

当然，你知道，现在这类情况更多了，表现形式也不同，信息以其他方式狂轰滥炸，但我认为这些都是人性本质和我们一直面对的问题，它们具有某种永恒性，尽管每一代人都觉得这些问题是他们独有的。

And sure, you know, there's more of it, and the devices are different, and it's being blitzed this this other way, but I think they're they're, they're this human nature and these problems we dealt with, like, there is a timeless quality to them, and even though they seem really unique generationally.

我们稍后将继续与尼尔的对话，但首先需要向大家介绍Shopify。Shopify支撑着美国10%的电子商务，是Gymshark、Allbirds以及Nutonic（或许你还不知道）背后的全球商业力量。作为全球商业平台，Shopify能助力企业发展的每个阶段，是你无需借口的商业伙伴。

We'll get back to talking to Neil in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all ecommerce in The United States. They are the global force behind Gymshark, Allbirds, and in case you didn't know it, Nutonic. Shopify is the global commerce platform, and it helps you sell at every stage of your business. They're your no excuses business partner.

无需学习编程或设计即可销售商品。只需带上你的绝妙创意，Shopify就能帮你开店。此外，Shopify屡获殊荣的客服团队将全程支持你取得成功。听着：如果你要创办线上业务，绝不是因为想学编程或平面设计。

You can sell without learning to code or design. Just bring your best ideas, and Shopify will help you open up shop. Plus Shopify's award winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Look. If you're starting an online business, it's not because you want to learn how to code or do graphic design.

Shopify处理所有繁琐事务，让你专注于打造和销售优质产品。现在通过节目备注中的链接或访问shopify.com/modernwisdom（全小写），即可注册享受每月1美元试用期。无论处于哪个发展阶段，都能通过shopify.com/modernwisdom壮大业务。你认为在恋爱关系中，有可能像追求阶段那样对爱情或亲密关系进行策略性操作吗？

Shopify handles all of the BS so that you can focus on building and selling an awesome product. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Do you think that it's possible to game love or connection in a relationship in the same way as you were able to do it with courtship?

我想简短回答是——顺便问下你的看法是什么？因为我知道我们有不同观点，我注意到你转换了话题（这没问题）。我们可以聊聊这个。你对这个观点有什么想法？比如如果有人读过阿尔贝·加缪的《创造的危险》，嗯...他实际上抱怨的某些事情，正是现在人们觉得自己在独特抱怨的内容。

I mean, I think I think my short the short version of the answer is any and by the what are your thoughts on that, by the way? Because I know we have a different thought because I noticed you switched the topic, which is fine. We can go to that. What are your thoughts on the idea that and I can give you some I think if someone reads Albert Camus' create dangerously, for example Mhmm. He literally complains about some of the things people are he's like, about some of things that people feel like they're uniquely complaining about now.

有些句子简直可以直接套用当今现状。我认为可能所有我阅读过的材料中都存在这类内容——我可以发给你一些摘录。我会标记那些听起来完全像在讨论永恒问题的段落。永恒问题。但你的想法是？

Like, some of the lines could could could apply to today. Or I just think there's probably a set of everything I read everything I read, and I can send you some of these excerpts. Like, I'll mark things that literally sound like it's people talking about Perennial problems. Perennial problems. But what what are your thoughts?

因为我认为你正目睹一场独特的文化危机——关于男性气质与心理健康的危机。

Because I think you're you see it in a very we're in a unique cultural crisis of masculinity and mental health.

从游戏化的长期连接角度来看，越来越多人开始意识到他们可能并不想永远周旋于这种奇怪的Tinder管理状态——像是永远停留在临时的炼狱中。这听起来并不有趣。但现实中很少有人真正探讨爱情关系。即便是很多我深入研究过的进化心理学内容——我知道你也涉猎过——它们都以一种近乎冷漠的交易式语言描述：价值创造、地位与资源交换、生育能力与年龄等等。

Well, I think from the gaming level long term connection thing, it seems to me that more people are beginning to wake up to the fact that they probably don't want to sleep around indefinitely and kind of be in this weird Tinder admin, like, liminal purgatory for the rest of time. That probably doesn't sound like fun. But no one really talks about love in relationships. You know, even a lot of the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've dug into, I know that you've looked at as well, it speaks in a very sort of sterile transactional way. It's make value and it's offering for status and protection and resources over fecundity and age and fertility and blah blah blah.

却从未有人谈论真实的爱恋体验：依附于某人、依赖他们、与之结合、做让彼此愉悦的事情等等。这些讨论总是像在审阅账本——这段关系的收支平衡表是什么？据我观察，吸引力的获取或许容易，但真正的连接却难以操控。

And no one ever talks about the actual felt experience of being in love or or or what it's like to be attached to somebody else and be dependent on them and and and be in union with them and and and do things that make each other feel good and and stuff like that. It's always it's always a very dispassionate look at how what what's the ledger? What's the balance sheet of this? And at least as far as I can see, I think that you can quite easily gain attraction, but it is much more difficult to game connection.

当你说'没人谈论爱情'时，具体是指什么？

And when you say no one talks about love, you mean, like what do you mean by that?

看看网上的约会建议吧。有多少内容在探讨当你为某人神魂颠倒时的感受？如何处理随之而来的嫉妒、不安、焦虑、被抛弃的恐惧？没人愿意讨论这些，在这个能预测天气、发射火箭、征服细菌、建立疾病理论、发展AI的现代世界里，爱情几乎像神明般——被视为某种原始而含糊不清的概念。

Well, look at the dating advice that you see that's online. Right. Like, how much of the dating advice talks about, this is what it feels like when you're head over heels besotted with a guy or girl partner, and this is how you can handle the emotions that come up of jealousy and uncertainty and anxiety and fear of being left and all of these things. No one ever wants to talk about that, because it seems in a modern world where we, you know, we can predict the weather and we can send rockets into space and we've conquered bacteria and we've got a theory of disease and we've got AI, love kind of almost feels like God. It's sort of this very unsophisticated, wishy washy

你指的是广义的爱情关系，还是特指你的个人经历？两者都是？我们在讨论两者。

Can I are you talking about kind of love or relationships just in your case? Both. We're talking both.

都是。我认为目前严重缺乏关于爱情或关系的讨论，更不用说如何以现象学意义上连贯的方式共同构建它们。

Both. Think I I just don't think that there's a massive amount of discussion about love or relationships, and how to build them together in any a phenomenologically, consistent way.

是的。我想我的意思是，顺便说一下，在我脑海里，实际上我认为关于关系的讨论比求偶期更多。这可能取决于你所在的领域和你的信息茧房。你的回声室是什么？我的又是什么？

Yeah. I I guess I mean, in my by the way, in my in my mind, I actually think there's more out there on relationships than courtship. And I guess maybe just depends on what silo Mhmm. You're in and and what what you're What's your echo chamber? What's mine?

没错。你的回声室是什么？因为很多人正在为关系问题而痛苦。他们为过去的创伤性关系所困，为当前无法摆脱的糟糕关系所苦，为本该结束却因子女抚养权仍在法庭纠缠的关系煎熬，或是被自恋者、反社会人格或边缘型人格伴侣推向地狱般的深渊，遭受精神操控。

Yeah. What's your what's your echo chamber because because, like, a lot of people out there are hurting over relationships. They're hurting over a past relationship they were in where they're just traumatized from the experience, and they're hurting over one they're in and they just can't get out of. They're hurting one that over one that's over should be over, but this person is still in the court system fighting them for their child. They're hurting because they did a narcissist or, you know, a sociopath or someone with borderline who put them through a living hell and gaslit them and drove them.

所以有太多人在探索关系问题时承受着痛苦，因此我认为更多人正在通过书籍、播客、专家建议寻求治愈——至少在我的认知范围内是如此。

So there's so much there's more pain out there from people trying to figure out the relationship stuff, and consequently, I think more people looking for to books and podcasts and experts and healing around that, at least in in my silo. Where

治愈从何而来

does the healing

但你谈论的另一面是，电影和流行歌曲向我们营销的某种爱情幻想同样不切实际。或许我可以换个角度理解你的问题：我们既看到了恐怖故事，也看到了爱情童话。你笑了，因为我们在达成共识对吧？但究竟在哪里能看到关于健康关系的现实期待呢？零冲突的关系反而是危险信号——

But then the other side of what you're talking about is then there's a flip side of it, which is there's a part of there's a love being marketed to us through movies and pop songs that is also not realistic to what our expectations of it, you know, should be. That so maybe I can think of your question another way, which is we're we're seeing the horror stories, and we're seeing the fantasies. You're smiling because I'm agreeing because we're agreeing. Right? But but but where where are we seeing, like, what's what really should be a healthy expectation of what a relationship is like, right, which which means that, you know, a relationship with zero conflict is a warning sign.

那绝非良性的关系。通常这种'平行关系'意味着两人同住一个屋檐下却过着分离的生活。只要没有情感或身体虐待，适度的冲突是健康的。在我看来，健康关系的标准是你们从冲突中恢复的速度，以及能否真正回到冲突前的情感状态。

It's not a great relationship. Right? That means someone is that's usually what what they call a parallel relationship, two people living separate lives under one roof. It's okay to have you know, again, as long as there's no emotional or physical abuse, it's conflict is good. To me, a healthy relationship is how quickly you recover from the conflict and truly get back to where you were before it.

这才是健康的关系。

That's a healthy relationship.

我听说你认为不该用科学来决定如何对待自己的心。是的。我确实经常思考人们如何试图用理性逻辑来构建一段有效且令人满意的关系。

I've heard you say you shouldn't be using science to decide what to do with your heart. Yes. And I do think a lot about how much people are trying to rationally logic themselves into a effective, satisfying relationship.

对。对。对。我觉得这是真的。我觉得，嗯，有趣的是另一方面，有些人列了一长串他们想要的东西，但每次清单消失时，他们还是会陷入同样的糟糕境地。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's true. I I think, like, it's it's fascinating to the other side of it is people who really have a long list of what they want, and then they just go for the same broken shit every time that list goes away.

或者他们以为自己找到了符合清单的东西，但那只是表象，最终他们又回到了之前的恐怖处境。嗯。所以回到关系这个话题，我认为最健康的方式——从经验中学到的——其实就是回归到外部控制点与内部控制点的区别。就像，我可以控制——我热爱——不断自我提升的过程。我就是喜欢这样，我觉得如果这是我们之间的分歧点，那可能是我总是在责怪自己。

And or or they think they think they found that thing they want that meets their list, but that was the mask, and they end up in the same horror store they were before. Mhmm. So so going back to relationships, I do think the I mean, I think the healthiest way to have the healthiest relationship learned from experience is literally just it goes back to external versus internal locus of control. It goes back to, like, I can control I I love I love the work of always working on yourself. Like, I just love it, and I think if it's a theme or these places where we differ, it's probably I'm always blaming myself.

我总是在审视自己。我无法控制文化，也无法控制别人的想法，但我能控制自己如何回应。对我来说，这就是赋予自己终极的主动权。对吧？

I'm always looking at myself. I can't control the culture. I can't control what people think, but what I can do is control how I respond to it. And to me, it's giving myself the ultimate agency. Right?

所以我不想陷入一个故事，为那些我无法控制的外部事物而烦恼。我想进入的故事是：妈的，我为什么会对那个有反应？我因此产生了什么想法？

And so I can't I don't wanna get into a story that I'm upset about something outside myself that I have no control over. I wanna get in the story of, fuck. I'm reacting to that. Why am I reacting to that? What thoughts am I then having because of that?

怎样才能不被动反应？再回到关系上，我从未明确表达过这一点，但我觉得这是个重要的观点：除非你停止对伴侣的反应，否则你无法判断关系中的问题是你还是你的伴侣造成的。比如我在一段关系中带着一堆抱怨，说为什么行不通，但如果我只是在反应——他们说了什么我就生气、受伤、怨恨、退缩或怎样——那么在他们能有任何回应之前，我真正能做到的只是共情。我能不带个人情绪地倾听。

How can I not be reactive? And then going back to relationships, here's a I've never articulated this, but I think it's an important idea, which is you don't know whether you're again, taking aside the edge cases of emotional and physical abuse, you don't know whether your relationship with the problem is you or your partner until you stop reacting to your partner. So if I'm in a relationship and I come with a bunch of complaints and I say why it's not working, but I'm reacting, you know, they're saying something and I'm getting upset about it or I'm getting hurt about it or I'm getting resentful or I'm shutting down or I'm whatever it is, until they can have any kind of response. And I can really just be empathic. I can listen without taking it personally.

我不能为自己辩护。我只能试图理解。我无法判断我的关系是否健康。我意识到这有点跑题了。

I cannot defend I cannot defend myself. I can just seek to understand. I'm not able to judge the health of my relationship. I realize that was a little bit of a tangent.

完全没有。我确实

Not at all. I Does

这说得通吗？

that make sense?

对于那些不断发现自己重复相同模式的人，无论是他们对世界的看法、对人际关系的看法，还是他们吸引或被吸引的人的类型，这些人首先应该从哪些方面着手改变？

What would you say to the people who do continue to find themselves repeating the same patterns, whether it's their perspective of the world, their perspective of relationships, the kinds of people that they are attracted to or attract, what are the first places that those people should look?

是的。我认为这个问题有两面性。或者说可能有三面性，对吧？

Yeah. I think there's I think there's two sides of it. Right? There or maybe there's three sides of it. Right?

在一段关系中存在三个实体：你自己、对方，以及作为第三实体的关系本身。所以我们可以从这三个角度来审视。首先，依恋理论现在非常流行，甚至不需要我多解释，大家都懂。

In a relationship, there's three entities. There's you, there's the other person, and then there's a relationship itself as a third entity. Right? So I think we can look at I think we can kind of look at all three of those. So one side is understand again, like, attachment theory is so trendy right now that that I don't even need to talk about it because everyone knows it.

但当我最初讨论它时，这还非常新颖。关键在于理解我们被特定方式塑造，因为我们偏爱熟悉的事物——这是最简单的理解方式。如果你有个自恋型父母，你很可能会不自觉地寻找某种形式的自恋者，试图获得他们的认可，最终陷入巨大挫败。

But when I first talked about it, like, was really new stuff. But understanding that we're wired a certain way because we love what's familiar. That's the easiest way to think about stuff. We love what's familiar. So consequently, if you had a narcissistic parent, you'll you'll you'll probably gonna try to meet some form of narcissist and then try to get seen by them and lead you to immense frustration.

若你曾被父母抛弃，你会选择情感或身体上缺席的伴侣，以某种方式重现童年情境，试图通过让他们关注你来治愈童年创伤。所以第一步是自我疗愈，而非期待他人治愈你——这正好反驳了你之前提到的关于'相互利用'的关系观点。

Or you had an abandoning parent, you're gonna choose somebody who is not emotionally there or not physically there or replicating that for you in some way, you're try to heal your childhood through trying to get them to be there to be seen through all these things. And I think so step one is heal yourself instead of trying to expect someone else to heal you. So that goes against what was that word you said about the relationships where we use each other?

汇流。

Confluent.

汇流关系。第一步就像是，艾茵·兰德推崇的那本关于自尊的经典著作——纳撒尼尔·布兰登写的？他确实说过我们会吸引与自身自尊水平相当的人。顺便说一句，希望我没有一次性抛出太多想法。每当有人...我就是热爱这些话题。

Confluent relationships. So so step one is, like, what's that classic book on self esteem that Ayn Rand's Nathaniel Brandon? He really said about we attract people who are at our level of self esteem. Whenever someone's By the way, I hope I'm not throwing too many ideas all over place at once. So whenever someone I just love these subjects.

谈论这些太有趣了。所以每当有人抱怨他们的伴侣时，我脑子里总在想：是你选择了和他们约会或结婚。比如，你们在哪些方面是平等的？如果伴侣情绪如此不成熟而你自己如此成熟，你们怎么会在一起？你们吸引的是彼此同频的能量。

They're so fun to talk about. So whenever somebody is saying complaining about their partner, in my brain, I'm always thinking you're dating them or you're married to them. Like, what way in which way are you equal that's not that your partner's you're so emotionally mature and your partner's so emotionally immature? You're dating each other. You're attracting your own level of that.

或许你们是同一枚硬币的正反面，但终究是同一枚硬币。所以首要的是提升自己的情绪健康水平，治愈童年模式和创伤，改善自尊部分。想吸引更好的人？本质上就是让自己变得更好。明白吗？你列出的所有理想伴侣特质，先用这个清单对照自己，当你活出这些特质时，那个人自然会出现。

Maybe you're the flip side of the same coin, but it's the same coin. So the first thing is raising your own level of emotional health, healing those childhood patterns and wounds, working on the self esteem piece. You wanna attract better people, just literally become a better person. Right? All those that list you have of everything that you need in a relationship, go look at yourself with that list, and you embody those, and you'll find that person.

拜伦·凯蒂的四个问题很棒，最精彩的是第五步——反转。这改变了我的人生。分享个快捷应用法：当我认为某人很烦时，反转就是列出我自己烦人的地方。我能立刻想到自己烦人的所有理由。

You know, I love Byron Katie's four questions, and the best part about them is Byron Katie has those four questions where you can challenge your beliefs. But the fifth thing is the turnaround, and that's changed my life. And here's, like, a shortcut for using it. If I ever tell myself a story that person's annoying, the turnaround is and I can list the reason I'm annoying. I'd say I'm annoying, then I can think of all the reasons I'm annoying.

对吧？如果抱怨伴侣从不支持我，那就想想自己有哪些方面没支持伴侣。当我把对他人的指责转向自己时，通常能看清——其实我们都明白——我和别人一样不完美。

Right? I get that my partner's never there for me. What the ways in which I'm not there for the partners? If I turn things around, my accusations of other people to myself, I can usually see. We can all see usually, but I can usually see I'm not I'm just as imperfect.

所以第一步是自我修炼。但难点在于：学习健康关系的最佳方式就是身处其中。只要不是和毒性伴侣交往，你完全可以在现有关系中练习技巧——比如管理自己的反应。本质上，关系就是个互动系统。

So first step is with yourself. But the challenge in that is is the best way to learn about how to a how to have a healthy relationship is to be in one. So there's tools and skills you can have in a relationship that you can work on it. So if you're in a relationship that, again you're not dating someone who is really toxic or toxic for you, is to, like, work on your own reactions. Like, literally, relationship is a system.

对吧？所以如果你改变系统中你能控制的那部分，整个系统就会随之改变。根据我和他人的经验，无数次证明，当我改变对事物的反应方式，从被动反应转为主动回应，或者改变自身的某些部分时，整段关系就会发生转变。所有这些能量——抱歉兄弟，关于这点我有太多想说的了。

Right? And so if you change the piece of the system you can control yourself, the whole system changes. And I can't tell you how many times in my experience and other people's experience that if I change how I react to things and just respond instead of reacting, if I change some part of myself, a whole relationship changes. All that all that energy sorry, man. I've got so much to say on this.

不，不，不，我真的很享受听你说这些，真的。

No. No. No. I'm enjoying it. Honestly.

好。人们花在改变伴侣上的所有精力从来都徒劳无功。只会滋生怨恨，而且你正在重演他们幼时遭受父母指责的情景。对吧？

Okay. All that energy people put into changing their partner never works. It never works. It just creates resentment, and you're reenacting a parental figure they had when they were younger that criticized them. Right?

他们当初选择这段关系时可不是为了这个。所以如果你把这份精力抽出来用于自我提升，当你发生改变时，伴侣自然也会改变。因为系统改变了，他们会主动问：'你最近怎么了？看起来更开心了'。

They signed up for that. And so if you just take that energy out, you work on yourself, you change, your partner will automatically change. They'll just change because the system changes. They'll say, oh, what are you doing? You seem happier.

'你参加男性成长小组了？或许我也该加入女性小组'，或者'你在做心理咨询？可能我也需要治疗'。天啊兄弟。

What's going on for you? You're in that men's group. Maybe I should be in this women's group, or you're doing therapy. Maybe I should get therapy too. Fuck, man.

归根结底就是——你变得越好，你身处的关系就会越好，你周围的世界也会开始显得更美好。

It all goes back to, like yeah. It all goes back to, like, the better you make yourself, the better relationships you'll be in, the better the world around you will start to look.

你发现哪些方法最能有效解构这些行为模式？

What are the modalities that you've found best for unpicking these patterns?

是啊。我觉得有个公式——你挑眉的样子让我想到这个。我爱你。这是我做播客的目标。等等。

Yeah. I think there's a there's a formula that I think of your eyebrows raised. I love you. This is my podcast goal. Wait.

有个公式？好吧。就是这三件事，我认为它们相辅相成。人们总说心理治疗没用，但他们指的是谈话治疗。我同意谈话治疗对改变帮助不大，因为你的问题早在你具备理性思维能力之前就形成了。

There's a formula? Okay. So so it's these three things, and I think these work together. So people always talk about therapy doesn't work, but I think they're talking about talk therapy. And I agree that talk therapy is not great for a change because your problems were developed before you had the intellectual capacity.

那些创伤是情感层面的。所以我认为治愈也需要情感层面的方式。这个公式包含三个要素：首先是深度密集体验，无论是工作坊还是其他形式，你要彻底释放创伤，哭到瘫软在地。

The wounds happened emotionally. And so I think we need to heal them. It's best to heal them emotionally. So I think the formula is these three things. So one is deep intensive deep intensive experiences that are whether they're workshops or things where you're really, really unpacking your wounds and you're just a puddle of tears on the ground.

需要有个封闭空间隔绝外界，远离你说的那些社交媒体，狠狠撕开情感创可贴，让自己完全...

So so some container where you can block off the outside world and all that social media you're talking about and and really break rip off the Band Aid and and just be a

能具体举些例子吗？

What are some examples of that?

当然。我最推荐的是对我本人有效的——顺便说，人们口中最好的疗法通常就是他们第一次真正见效的疗法。我在亚利桑那州梅多斯治疗中心参加的'幸存者计划'，就像童年创伤的驱魔仪式。你坐在椅子上，我真的感觉像被驱魔了一样。

Sure. My favorite that I'll say my favorite, the one that worked for me. And by the way, people's thing they say the best is usually the first thing they did that really worked. So so my bias and the first thing that really worked for me was the at the Meadows, which is a treatment center in Arizona, they have a program called the survivor's program, and it's like an exorcism of your childhood wounds. Like, you sit there in a chair like this, and I literally felt like an exorcism.

记得治疗结束后我第一次意识到：操，这才是卸下所有父母和成长包袱的真实自我。当然回到日常环境后老问题还会出现，但你现在有了回归的目标。很多人推崇霍夫曼流程，我觉得霍夫曼流程也非常棒。

And I remember leaving the therapy, and for the first time, I'm like, fuck. This is who I am without all that shit, without all that baggage I was carrying from mom and dad and all my upbringing, fuck, this is who I really am. And then, of course, you go back to your regular environment and the same shit happenings, and you start having the same response, but now you have a target to get back to. People love the Hoffman process. I think the Hoffman process is is very is amazing as well.

区别在于，梅多斯是一家精神病治疗机构，提供一对一的治疗服务。辅助流程包括团体治疗，效果非常显著。但关键在于，我认为只要双方都真心实意想改善状况，且不涉及邪教性质，任何方式都值得尝试。

The difference is it's it's this Meadows is a, you know, a psychiatric facility, and you're getting one on one work. Helping processes group work, but it's also amazing. But here's the thing. I think anything you do where the person and yourself both have the intention of really getting better and it's not a cult is gonna pursue.

确保不是邪教组织。

Ensure it is not a cult.

判断邪教的方法很简单：如果疗程要求你发展下线，那就是邪教。这是我多年参与自我提升活动的经验之谈——我曾误入过这类组织。

Here's how you know it's a cult. It's a cult if part of the treatment involves you signing up other people for the work. Simple rule of thumb. I've been I've because I do so much self improvement stuff. I went to these ones that were Kulti.

亲眼见证洗脑机制的运作效率令人震惊。他们在自我提升课程中埋设心理暗示，数月甚至数年后操控你的行为，让人像机器人般盲从，简直难以置信。

It was amazing to see how the brainwashing worked and how effective it was. They, like, create these loops within the self improvement teachings that they then pull the strings on months or years later that get you to follow it like a robot. It's unbelievable.

真有意思。

How interesting.

不过奥利维亚，再补充一点。抱歉伙计。

But here, Olivia, one more thought. Sorry, man.

不，继续讲。我们还有两个阶段要讨论呢。

No. No. No. Keep going. We've got two more stages to get through.

好吧。所以，梅多斯中心的这种疗法被称为后诱导疗法，说到邪教。其理念是你的童年就像一种催眠诱导。你的童年就是一个邪教组织。不错。

Okay. So so this therapy at the meadows is called post induction therapy, speaking of cults. The idea is that your childhood is like a hypnotic induction. Your childhood is a is a cult. Nice.

不过我得给你看看这杯饮料。

I gotta show you a drink, though.

快把它倒进去

Get it get it in there

所以你

so you

会更有活力一点。

have a little bit more energy.

这就是我们如何做出这些三小时播客的。

This this is how you get these three hour podcasts.

没错。

That's correct.

所以你的童年就像一场催眠诱导，或者说你正在被灌输进一个邪教。而这个邪教就是你父母所信仰的一切。对吧？我们都在这样的环境中长大，而后续的治疗就是让你从这前十七年深陷的邪教中清醒过来。

So your childhood is a hypnotic induction or you're in a you're being indoctrinated into a cult. And a cult is whatever your parents believe. Right? We all grow up, and so the post induction therapy is unbrainwashing you from this cult you're in for the first seventeen years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我特别喜欢这个比喻。

Which I love.

刚才说什么？你能简单描述下大脑中发生的那个过程吗？是像获取和修剪那样的机制吗？你有没有...

What was that? Can you just briefly describe the process of was it, like, acquisition and pruning that happens in the brain? Have you ever

哦当然。是的。之前讨论过这个？对。这样吧...

Oh, sure. Yeah. Talk about that before? Yeah. So I'll tell you what.

我先说完另外两点，我们再详谈那个话题。

I'll kid the two other things, and we'll talk about that.

说到这个。好的。那先完成你三步骤流程的第一阶段概述...

Come to that. Okay. So first one, just to round out that first stage of your three step process

成为终极人类的目标。深度密集工作坊，就像那种一年只举办一两次的，让你经历某种情感宣泄的体验。

of becoming your ultimate human. Deep intensive workshop, like, you know, just one or two a year where you're just emotionally kind of where where you're going through some sort of emotionally purging experience.

这种模式的原则是什么？是说它情感上非常强烈吗？

What what are the principles of that modality? That it's something which is emotionally intensive?

是的，而且要持续多天。

Yeah. And multiple days

明白。

Yep.

并且是在一个安全的环境中进行。

And in just a sort of safe container.

理解了。好的，这是其一。

Understood. Okay. There's one.

意思是，你只是试图释放...然后就像每个参加过精彩研讨会的人都知道的那样，会后会有那种兴奋感，但回去后又重蹈覆辙。所以第二步是维持，意味着我们获得这种改变，大脑重新设定后回到原来的世界，却发现一切如常。

Meaning that simply you're just trying to let let and then then as everyone who's ever been to an amazing seminar or workshop knows, you you get that high post seminar high, and then you go back and do the same old shit. Right? So step two is maintenance. Meaning, we get this change and we get our brain gets set right. We go back to our world and the same stuff is happening.

大脑又开始偏离正轨了。所以我想谈谈男性每周问责制，这样你可以不断被提醒你的船应该指向什么方向。关于这些男性团体有个很棒的点——我并不是说让你们去Instagram上找那些刚组建男性团体的人加入。实际上我说的男性团体是指：我找了五六个和我工作水平相当的人，我们处于相同人生阶段，可能有孩子、已婚或离异，然后我们共同分摊一位治疗师的费用。

The brain starts to go askew again. So I wanna talk about the men so some sort of weekly accountability so you can just keep being reminded of what direction your your your your boat should be pointed in. Here's an awesome thing about these men's groups, and, like, I really and I'm not saying go on I'm actually not saying go on Instagram and find somebody who's starting a men's group, you know, and join that. When I'm actually saying when I when I say men's group, what I did was I took five or six people about at my level of of work, some people you know, and and we're at the same place. Maybe we're have have kids or marriage or divorce, whatever it is, and then we all chipped in for one therapist.

这样非常经济实惠，比个人治疗便宜。而且研究表明团体疗法更有效。但团体治疗最妙的是——假设你是治疗师并提出观点，我可以说'他错了，他不了解我'。

So this is really affordable. It's cheaper than individual therapy. And group therapy has been, like, studied to be more effective, but what's amazing about group therapy is I can sit say you're the therapist and you have a point of view. I can just say, well, you know, he's wrong. He doesn't know me.

那只是他的个人观点和所受训练使然。但如果是你和其他四位我推荐的同伴都说我错了——虽然我仍觉得你们不对，但既然所有人都这么说，那肯定有值得我反思的地方。

Like, that's just his opinion and how he was how he was taught. But if it's you and four other peers who I recommend and they're all saying I'm wrong, like, I don't think you guys are right, but you're all saying it, so there must be something there for me to explore.

无处可藏。

Nowhere to hide.

没错，无处可藏。在两次治疗师面谈之间，你们团体成员可以保持联系。嗯，所以我强烈推荐这种方式。

Yeah. Nowhere to hide. And with a with a group between your weekly sessions with a therapist, you can stay in touch with the group. Mhmm. So I strongly recommend it.

这确实...你们需要治疗师在场就是为了保持问责，避免你们跑偏到某些...

It's it's it's a and you need the therapist there just for the accountability so you don't go off on some

变成纯粹的兄弟聚会夜。

It just becomes a bro evening.

是啊。要么变成兄弟聚会夜，要么你就是在助长一些不健康的行为。

Yeah. It becomes a bro evening, or you're just reinforcing some unhealthy behavior.

另外，本节目由Momentous赞助播出。不介意的话，我听到你说去年我的睾酮水平从495提升到了1006，期间我使用的两种补充剂是Fidogia Aggressus和东革阿里。最初是听Andrew Huber博士谈到它们惊人的效果，听起来很棒，直到他发现大多数补充剂实际成分与广告宣传不符。Momentous生产全球唯一获得NSF认证的Fidogia Agrestus和东革阿里，这意味着它们经过严格检测，连奥运选手都能使用，这也是我选择与他们合作的原因。

In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. Mind if I heard you say that I took my testosterone from four ninety five to a thousand and six last year, and two of the supplements I used throughout that were Fidogia Aggressus and Tonkat Ali. I first heard Doctor Andrew Huber talk about the really impressive effects, which sound great until he realised that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising. Momentous make the only NSF certified Fidogia Agrestus and Tonkat Ali on the planet. That means that they are tested so rigorously that even Olympic athletes can use them, and that is why I partnered with them.

所以，如果你在健身房或卧室表现不佳，或者想自然提升睾酮水平，Fadoja Agrestas和东革阿里是两个绝佳的起点。最棒的是，它们提供30天退款保证，你可以零风险购买试用。如果不满意，他们承诺全额退款。通过下方节目备注链接或访问livemomentous.com/modernwisdom，使用优惠码modernwisdom可享受全站最高32%折扣。

So if you are not performing in the gym or the bedroom, or you just want to improve your testosterone naturally, Fadoja Agrestas and Tonkat Ali are two great places to start. Best of all, there is a thirty day money back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk free. Use it. And if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. You can get up to a 32% discount on everything site wide with the code modern wisdom by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom.

网址是livem0ment0us.com/modernwisdom，结账时输入modernwisdom即可。

That's livem0ment0us.com/modernwisdomandmodernwisdom at checkout.

大型变革研讨会。

Big change workshops.

对。大概每年一到两次？

Yep. Around about one to two a year?

是啊。你知道，或者随便怎样...我们每年有一到两次。嗯。也可能隔几年才一次。

Yeah. You know, or for whatever yeah. We have one to two a year. Mhmm. Just it could just be one every couple years.

嗯。你知道，我觉得内观禅修可能很棒。我还没尝试过那种把自己关在独处疗法中的体验。有几个

Mhmm. You know, I think Vipassana retreats are probably great. I haven't done that thing where you hole up in a solitary confinement therapy. Couple of

朋友试过。

friends have done that.

他们喜欢吗？

Do they like it?

褒贬不一。无论是黑暗闭关，还是佩德拉·提亚尝试过的——我想是三周吧——嗯哼。每天的心理治疗，基本上就像他被锁在一个...两周后他坚决表示：我受够了，彻底够了。

Mixed bag. I mean, whether it's a darkness retreat, whether it's, Pedra Tia did, I think, three weeks of Uh-huh. Daily psychotherapy, which was basically like him being sort of locked in a like, the he he was adamant after two weeks. I'm done. I'm I'm completely sweet.

而他们却说：你还不能结束。结果他非常沮丧，但果然到了第19天（总共21天左右），所有转变都发生了。哇。不过确实，这类高强度闭关疗愈有很多种形式。

And they were like, you're not done. Right. And he got real frustrated, and then sure enough, like, day 19 of '21 or whatever was the day that everything happened. Wow. But, yeah, there's there's a lot of these sort of intensive intensive retreats.

然后还有男性团体或某种围圈分享小组。

Then a men's group or some kind of circling group.

某种...某种谈话问责形式。可能是治疗小组或普通团体，不限于男性或女性小组，任何类型的...嗯...团体都可以。

Some some some sort of, like, talk accountability. So would be therapy or or just a group. It doesn't mean men's group or women's group. It can be whatever Mhmm. Group.

第三点是危机时刻可用的工具。比如，一个简单的方法就是所谓的‘重新养育’。我在关系中遇到的问题是与一位强势的自恋型母亲的纠缠——顺便说，很多涉足搭讪艺术家圈的人都有类似经历。其核心理念是：我曾被压倒性的女性特质所窒息，再也不想重蹈那种被女性控制的覆辙，所以我要学会自我赋权。

And the third thing is tools to use when you're in the moment of crisis. Meaning okay. As a like, one simple tool is, like, say, reparenting. So so my issue in relationships was enmeshment at a really dominant narcissistic mom is, by the way, a lot of people who were on that pickup artist seduction world So a lot of the idea behind that is I was suffocated by the overpowering feminine. I never wanna be victim, go back to that story, of the feminine again, so I'm gonna learn a way to empower myself.

这不同于神经多样性叙事，是另一个群体。出于好奇，你母亲的情况是怎样的？

So that's besides the neurodivergent narrative, that's another group. And out of curiosity, was you what was your mom's situation?

不，我不会用自恋来形容。她性格内向，但非常努力。我是独生子，所以得到了过度关注和精心呵护。

No. I wouldn't have said narcissistic. Introverted, tried incredibly hard. I'm an only child, so an awful lot of, care and sort of precious attention placed on me.

是的。除了自恋型，过度焦虑或抑郁的父母同样会造成纠缠，因为他们的需求有时会凌驾于你的需求之上。什么是情感纠缠？哦真的吗？好吧。

Yeah. So could so and besides narcissist, there could be a, like, a super anxious or super depressed parent would also sort of be enmeshing because then your their needs come before your own sometimes. What is enmeshment? Oh, really? Okay.

对，这是最关键的概念。我先说完第三点，再解释情感纠缠，之后我们还要讨论另一个重点。

Yeah. This this is, like, the most important idea. So I'll do it. I'll finish the third thing, and I'll do enmeshment, and then there's another thing we're gonna get back to.

没问题。

No worries.

刚才很有趣，我当时在想——我们是不是要...

It was funny. I was like, are we gonna

我们不会没话题可聊的。

We're not gonna run out of stuff to talk about.

我知道。我们总得在某个时候停下来。就像之前说的，

I know. We're gonna have to stop at some point. Again, like

危机时刻可以使用的工具。

Tools to use in a moment when you're in crisis.

是的。顺便我想说一句赞美的话，当我听你的播客时，你真的让嘉宾畅所欲言，就像你现在对我做的那样。嗯。但同时你也非常投入、专注，并且关心内容。这种平衡很棒。我原本有点紧张，因为我喜欢像我们现在这样紧密连接的对话交流。

Yeah. And by the way, I wanna say one thing, pay a compliment, which is, you know, when I listen to your podcast, you really let the guest talk a lot as you're doing so nicely to me. Mhmm. But you're also really, like, connected and engaged and care about what's And being it's a wonderful balance. I was a little nervous because I love conversation dialogue that's connected like we're having.

意思是，你做得很好，真正做到了深思熟虑的倾听，然后会让对话持续深入。

Mean, like, just and do a great job of of really thoughtfully listening, and and then you'll guess go on for a while.

完全不会。我是在不断引导你说出来。你本身就是个有趣话题的源泉，所以我们继续吧。

Not at all. I'm I'm continuing to draw it out of you. You're a font of interesting things, so let's keep going.

好的。那么第三件事是关于即时可用的工具。比如说，如果我意识到自己被过度保护的父母所窒息。那么当英格丽——我当时的妻子，我的

Okay. So so the third thing is tools to use in the moment. So so meaning that let's say I learned that I was suffocated by the overwhelming parent. So when Ingrid, my wife at the time, my

前妻是我母亲孩子的未来。

Ex wife future of my mother child.

前妻未来的宝贝孩子。不记得具体是什么了。这绝对是下一本书的内容。不管这是什么，这就是这本书。对。

Ex wife future baby child. Don't remember what it is. This is definitely the next book. Whatever this is, this is this is the book. Yeah.

是啊。你知道的，这是人生旅程的下一阶段。

Yeah. You know, it's the next stage of the life journey.

所以是《有意识的重组》。

So Conscious Recoupling.

有意识的重组太搞笑了。现在这要成为潮流了。简直荒谬到

Conscious so so funny. It's gonna be a thing now. It's so ridiculous that

有时候《拳头》里的重新养育。

sometimes Punches reparenting.

对。所以这个重新养育的概念就是当我们被伴侣的某些行为触发或产生反应时——我刚刚说成父母了，因为我们是在重演来自父母的行为模式——比如他们挑剔或我们虚构出...我的伴侣逼我这样做。其实他们没逼你做任何事。他们没在搞什么大型一夫一妻制。

Yeah. So so the reparenting thing is when we get, you know, triggered or reactive at something our parent our our partner does funny that the I said parent because we're reenacting something that comes from our parents, so they're critical or they're we make we people make up. My partner's making me do this. They're not making you do anything. They're not making big monogamous.

你完全可以随心所欲。只是每件事都有其后果。没人强迫你，一切都是选择。嗯。总之，我们对任何事物的反应，都可以停止。

You can literally do what you want. You just they're just consequences. No one's making it's all a choice. Mhmm. So anyway, anything we react to, we can stop.

所以对我来说，应对工具是——即使她是出于爱意拥抱我，我也会感到窒息，因为我父母的爱...尤其是我母亲的爱太过依赖，吸走了我的生命力。明白吗？所以我就会告诉自己，嘿，没关系，她不是你妈妈。

And so the tool for me was if even if she was hugging me out of love, I'd feel just suffocated by it because my parents' love was so my mom's love was so needy and sucked the life out of me. Right? So I would just tell myself, hey. It's okay. She's not your mom.

她不是想要折磨你。我得...她只是爱你，对你有感情，真心欣赏和关心你，所以放轻松。

She's not trying to suffer. I gotta be she just loves you and has affection and really appreciates and cares about you, so relax.

具体来说...嗯。这是你在和自己对话吗？几乎像是...我注意到某种情绪在我内心升起。我觉察到它，然后开始与自己对话探讨这意味着什么？

Just to get into specifics there Yeah. Is that you talking to yourself in almost sort of a I noticed something arises. This emotion arises inside of me. I see it, and then I begin to have a dialogue with myself about what that means?

对，对。与那个正在反应的自我部分对话。嗯。我们接受...你知道的，风格疗法，我很喜欢那个...他叫什么来着？

Yeah. Yeah. Having a dialogue with the part of myself that's reacting. Mhmm. We have I love, you know, style therapy, and I love these what's his name?

Rempo。我喜欢...我喜欢将我们自己视为不同部分。所以我认为...我觉得就像有个CEO。

Rempo. I love these I love looking at ourselves as parts. So I think I think of I think of like there's a CEO.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？那只是你最平衡、最稳定的自我状态。但实际情况是，你的一部分自我会占据主导。比如在这个例子中，就像是那个受伤的内在小孩。明白吗？

Right? That's just your that's just the your most balanced, stable self. But what happens is some part of yourself takes over. So in this case, it's like the the the the wounded child. Right?

我尽量不说'内在小孩'这个词，但那个受伤的孩子会本能地觉得'哦，这场景很熟悉'。嗯。我得阻止这种情况发生。对吧？然后你的执行功能，就像你说的CEO或管理者，就会站出来说：

I'll try not to say inner child, but the wounded child who who who is like, oh, this is familiar. Mhmm. I better stop this from happening. Right? And then your executive function, your CEO, your admin, as you say, says, hey.

没关系，交给我处理。你可以放松，她不是你妈妈。嗯。

It's okay. I got this. You can relax. She's not your mom. Mhmm.

你知道的，她只是

You know, she's just

试图介入并掌控局面。这是我最近思考很多的问题。我正在经历人生第一次正式的心理治疗，之前花了大量时间练习正念。

trying that that arises and step in. This is something I've been thinking about more. I'm doing my first sort of big pass through therapy, and I've done a lot of time doing mindfulness.

没错。

Right.

但我发现过于强调正念练习反而让我在真正追溯情绪根源前就释放了它们。我能觉察到情绪升起，然后说'好的，放下吧，顺其自然'。这方面我已经非常熟练了。

But I actually found that a strong mindfulness practice caused me to let go of emotions before I actually looked at where they came from. Ability to sort of notice something arises and go, okay. Just release and allow. That's fine. And I was very, very practiced with that.

对我来说，这感觉就像雨刷器。所以我在深圳Young的练习方法是：看、听、感。我会向左滑动进行‘看’，向右滑动进行‘听’，向下滑动进行‘感’。这就是它在我脑海中的运作方式。

It feels to me, it feels like windscreen wipers. So my practice, from Shenzhen Young is, see, hear, feel. So I would swipe left to do see. I would swipe right to do hear, and I would swipe down to do feel. And that's the way it would feel in my mind.

就像什么都没发生一样，对吧？这只是我逐渐习惯的一种方式

It's like nothing's happening. Right? It's just the way that I come to kind of

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

感

Feel

受。我太喜欢了。真的很棒，非常棒。

it. I love that. That's really good. That's really good.