#983 - 盖伊·亨德里克斯 - 深度联结的关系

其实在开始之前，我想先解释一下为什么我现在对这些如此感兴趣，这或许能把我过去三四年间关注的大背景勾勒出来。大约四年前，我开始对婚恋动态产生兴趣，最初像许多人一样从宏观趋势入手——结合率、出生率、满意度层级、社会经济变化、单身人口数量等等。这些都是大趋势，对吧？

I wanted to explain, actually, before we got started, why I'm so interested in this stuff now, and it maybe sort of frames it in the broader context of what I've been interested in over the last sort of three or four years. So I got kind of interested in mating dynamics, probably about four years ago or so, and I started off what lots of people do, which is macro trends. So, rates of coupling, birth rates, status levels of satisfaction, what's happening socioeconomically, how many people are single, so on and so forth. It's these sort of big trends. Right?

这些都是顶层发生的重大变化。当你发现'哇，这里正在发生真实变革，我们似乎身处动荡时代'后，自然会追问：驱动人类吸引力的底层原则是什么？这让我走进了进化心理学领域——从适应性的角度看，我们在观察什么？

It's a big stuff that's happening up top. And as soon as you've found out that, wow, there's some real changes going on here, and it seems like we're in a a a turbulent time, you then ask, okay. Well, what are the sort of underlying principles that drive human attraction? And that led me down the path of evolutionary psychology. So what are we looking at from a a a an adaptive standpoint?

我们研究的是上迁婚配、配偶守护、嫉妒、男性亲子不确定性、同性竞争这类现象，它们就像是我们的心理源代码。接着我探索的下个阶段是：现代文化如何影响宏观趋势和祖先遗留的心理程序？现代世界的哪些变革导致了当前的情感动荡？

We're looking at hypergamy and mate guarding and jealousy and male parental uncertainty and intrasexual competition and kind of that suite of things, which I guess are kind of some of our psychological source code. And then the next stage that I went on to was, okay. Well, modern culture. How is the macro trend and the underlying sort of ancestral programming? How is that what what's happening in the modern world changes that have happened that have sort of led us to some of this this turbulence maybe occurring?

比如性革命、避孕药发明、交友软件、科技干扰等等。这些都很有趣，逐渐形成了我的世界观。但根据我目前的阶段性理论：虽然这些背景因素很有意思，但每个人日常经营感情的实际机制与这些都无关。

So you're talking about sexual revolution and and the creation of the pill and dating apps and and technology and distraction and so on and so forth. And all of that was really interesting, and it kind of starts to form a perspective, right, about the world. But what I've sort of this is my current working theory. All of that stuff's very interesting. But every person's actual day to day the mechanism with which they interact with their relationship is none of those things.

明白吗？那些都只是高强度的背景噪音。所有人体验亲密关系的真正媒介，是他们相处的方式——是他们呈现自我的状态，是争执时的情绪反应。

Right? They are all very highly contributing background noise. The mechanism that everybody's experience of their relationship is mediated through is how they relate. It is the way that they show up. It's their emotional state when there is a disagreement.

是他们与伴侣沟通的方式，是否存在未说出口的期待和预谋的怨怼。在探究这些时，我就像史上最蹩脚的福尔摩斯四处张望：'哦是趋势问题''哦是祖先程序''可能是性革命和交友软件的影响'。

It's how they communicate with their partners, whether they have unspoken expectations and premeditated resentments. So for all of this stuff, I'm kind of like the worst Sherlock Holmes in history, looking around at all of these different places. Oh, it's the trends. Oh, it's the ancestral programming. Oh, it might be the sexual revolution and what's happening with dating apps.

但归根结底，每个人对关系的体验取决于他们如何呈现自我、有多清醒自觉、建立了怎样的承诺与约定——那些维系整个关系运转的具体机制。这让我开始关注你们的工作，还有Stan Tatkin等人的研究，试图理解相处的实际机制。讲这段小故事是想让你了解我的思考脉络。

But, ultimately, everybody's experience of their relationship is how they show up, how consciously they are, what the sort of commitments and agreements are that they make. Like, what what are the nuts and bolts and the the mechanism through which their entire relationship is mediated? And that has sort of led me to get interested in your work, in, people like Stan Tatkin as well, in an attempt to try and understand the actual mechanism of relating. And I just thought that might be an interesting little story arc to give you some some background and lore to to me and how I arrived at this stuff.

感谢分享背景。我和凯蒂相伴45年，期间发现了让感情保鲜的秘诀。后来有位叫奥普拉的励志节目主持人邀请我们带着《清醒地爱》上节目，从此我的生活就像洗衣机进入了高速旋转模式，最近才稍缓下来。这些年我们不仅经营自己的婚姻，还通过研讨会接触了约4500对伴侣。

Well, I appreciate the background. Well, Katie and I have been together now for forty five years, and we have, in that time, made our own discoveries that made our own relationship work. And then one day, a rising young self help TV person named Oprah called us and invited her invited us on her show with our book, Conscious Loving. And at that point, my life kinda went into the spin cycle on the washing machine and, has just recently slowed down a little bit. But, during all of that time, Katie and I not only had our own relationship, but we also worked with about 4,500 couples and more probably in our seminars.

所以我的视角会更贴近实战经验，而非进化层面的理论。

So my perspective is going to be kind of down in the trenches rather than up at the evolutionary level. Okay.

那么

So

要维系一段良好的关系，尤其是与挚爱之人，甚至与任何人相处，有三件大事你必须反复可靠地做上成千上万次。这三件事就是：你必须擅长感受自己的情绪。你必须清楚自己的感受，因为别人会经常问你‘你现在感觉如何？’这本该在一年级就教会我们，但我直到研究生阶段才明白。内心体验其实有一整套丰富的词汇。

there are really three big things that you have to do reliably over and over again, thousands of times to have a good relationship, certainly with your beloved, but pretty much anybody. And those three things are, you've got to get good at feeling your own feelings. You've got to get good at knowing how you feel because somebody's gonna ask you a lot of times, what are you feeling right now? And we should be taught this in the first grade, but I didn't learn it until I was in graduate school. But there's a whole vocabulary of inner experience.

比如‘我在生气’‘我很悲伤’‘我感到害怕’‘我对你有性吸引力’‘我不知道自己什么感受’。

There's I'm angry. There's I'm sad. There's I'm scared. There's I'm sexually attracted to you. There's I don't know what I'm feeling.

但情感领域有完整的表达体系和感知方式。所以第一点是双方（如果涉及更多人则都需要）必须培养这种内省能力——你要学会向内探询：‘我此刻内心发生了什么？’如果做不到这点…就在这间办公室里，我们见过许多人直到退休才突然面临伴侣问题，这些问题在他们多年成功生涯中被一直回避。而根源往往始于‘我们内心真实的感受’。维系良好关系绝对关键的第二点是诚实。

But there's a whole suite of things that can be said and tuned into in the realm of feeling. So the first thing is both people, and if there's more, people have to get good at making this inner move where you kind of go inside and say, what's going on in me right now? If you can't do that, well, you know, we've had people in here in this very office who have been unable to do that, and they're suddenly at retirement now facing problems with their spouse or partner that they put off through all those years of being successful and everything. And they always boil down to starting with how are we feeling inside. The second thing that's absolutely essential to have a good relationship is telling the truth.

就像我刚才说的，当有人问你感受时，能坦然说‘我现在很悲伤’。但你会惊讶于能如此流畅表达感受的人何其稀少。第三点就是——我列个一二三吧：感受情绪、诚实表达。但最重要的第三点是，能够为日常关系中出现的状况承担责任。

That being honest, like I was saying, you know, if somebody asks you how are you feeling, being able to say, I feel sad right now. But you'd be surprised at how few people are that conversant with their feelings that somebody can ask them that. A third is what I'm on the one, two, and three. So feeling your feelings, telling the truth. Big third one, though, which is the ability to take responsibility for things that come up every day in relationships.

关系中很容易陷入指责游戏。我们接待过一些夫妇，他们实质上重复同样的争吵长达三十年，就是因为陷入责任误区——认为责任等同于归咎过错。但责任根本不是这样，它是担当。是说‘我现在很害怕’，或者说‘我不清楚现在怎么回事’。

There's such a tendency in relationship to get into the blame game. I mean, we've literally had couples here who have been having the same argument basically for thirty years because they get locked into a flaw of responsibility, which is thinking responsibility involves fixing blame. But that's not what responsibility is at all. It's ownership. It's saying, I'm scared right now, or, oh, I don't know what's going on right now.

这就是担当。是跳出指责游戏，把承担责任不是当作负担，而是对当下真实自我的礼赞。这个话题我能讲好几天，不过先让我暂停深呼吸一下。

It's ownership. It's getting out of the blame game and taking responsibility for things not as a burden, but as really a celebration of who you are at that particular point. Well, I could go on for several days about this, but let me just pause there and take a breath.

不，这太精彩了。那么刚才讨论的这三个原则——感受情绪、坦诚表达（哪怕是小事）、承担责任——这些就是区分‘觉醒之爱’与‘无意识之爱’的根本吗？还是说还有更多内涵？

No. That's that's fantastic. Is that then, those three principles that we've gone through, that feeling of feelings, telling truths even if they're small, and taking responsibility, is that fundamentally what differentiates conscious from unconscious loving, or is there more to say on that?

这已经涵盖了很大部分。事实上，当人们从我们的关系研讨会毕业时，会获得一个硅胶手环，上面写着‘呼吸·爱’。而第三个关键词是关于感恩。感恩是关系中常被忽视的要素，除了那三大要点外，人们生活中最缺失的，就是充分感恩他人与被他人深深感恩的能力。不知从何时起这竟成了过时的品质。

That's a good bit of it right there. And in fact, when people graduate from our relationship seminars, we have a little silicone band on it that says breathe, love. And then the third one is about appreciation. So appreciation is a missing complement to relationships, those big three things that one of the things that's missing from people's lives is having a rich sense of appreciation of other people and being richly appreciated themselves. And I don't know where it went out of fashion.

记得我小时候有种观念，认为表扬孩子会让他们骄傲自满甚至变得自恋。但事实几乎完全相反——多年前有项研究，心理学家给四五岁的孩子佩戴语音激活麦克风，记录一周内所有对他们说的话。分析后发现，85%的言语是否定性的，比如‘别那样’‘停下’之类的负面指令，而非正面赞赏。

I remember when I was a kid, there was this, thought that if you praise children, it would go to their heads and they'd become narcissistic or something. Well, pretty much the exact opposite is true because there was a study some years ago where the psychologists took little voice activated microphones and hung them around the necks of children so that everything that would be said to the kid during the week would be recorded. And these were all like four or five year old kids. And so in the course of the week, all of the recordings, once they got sorted through, 85% of the stuff that was said to the children was negative. Like, stop doing that or quit that or you you know, something that involved a negative prescription rather than a positive appreciation.

由此可见，多赞赏你的孩子和他人几乎不会出错。不用担心这会让他们...

And so that lets you know that you probably can't go too far wrong by appreciating, you know, your children and appreciating other people. Don't worry about it going to

他们的头脑。是的。即使你百分之百做到了，其他人，他们所有不在家庭中、不与你共处的经历，都会抵消这一点。所以你的孩子成为自恋狂、拥有巨大自负的可能性仍然相当低。

their heads. Yeah. Even if you did it a 100% of the time, the other people, all of the the experiences they have that aren't in the household and they aren't with you, they're gonna offset that. So the the likelihood of your child becoming a narcissist with a massive ego is still pretty low.

尤其是如果他们经历过初中阶段。因为我记得在那三年里，我的朋友们几乎没说过一句负面或正面的话。全是互相调侃、贬低、讽刺之类破坏关系的东西。

Especially if they've ever been through junior high school. Because I I don't remember anybody ever of my friends saying a single negative or positive word for about three years there. It was all ragging on each other and put downs and sarcasm and all of those kinds of stuff that are ruined relations.

你正在和一个英国人说话，所以挖苦实际上是我们国家的全民运动。知道吗？就像...我有个朋友说过，美国的内向者就是英国的外向者。那种程度。

You're talking to someone who's British, so taking the piss is actually our national sport. You know? Like, the the I I I think, one of my friends has this thing. He says, an American introvert is a British extrovert. That that level

我发现当我在英国时，我大部分有意义的对话都发生在喝完两杯健力士之后。在那之前，我基本不把任何对话当回事。

find that I I've when I'm in The UK, most of my good conversations come after two Guinnesses. Up until then, I don't I write off pretty much any conversation I have.

这些都只是形式。就像前戏。是的，就是实质性事情发生前的枕边私语。没错。

This is all just formality. It's like foreplay. It's the, yeah, it's the the precoital pillow talk before anything's actually happened. Yeah.

除非我在爱尔兰，那需要三四杯才行。在爱尔兰两杯根本不够。

That's Unless I'm in Ireland, and it takes three or four. But the the two two in Ireland doesn't do it.

确实如此。非常正确。他们是不同的品种。那么角色呢？看看那些，那些是承诺对吧？

That's true. That is very true. They're a different breed. What about the role so looking at those, those are commitments. Right?

这是三个非常重要的承诺。那协议呢？协议的作用是什么？它们与承诺有何不同？这意味着什么？

Those are three very important commitments that we've got there. What about agreements? Like, what's the role of agreements? How do they differ from commitments? What what does that mean?

是的。当你通过这三大考验后，就会开启更多重要事项。如果你能很好地觉察感受、诚实表达并承担责任，就有大量事情需要关注。其中之一就是遵守协议——你知道，当人们分手时，常会被问及关系破裂的原因。有两个答案特别突出：对方从不告诉我他们的感受。

Yes. Once you get through the big three, then you open up a few more things that are really important. So if you're getting good at noticing how you feel, speaking honestly, and taking responsibility, there's a plethora of things to focus on. One of them is keeping agreement that, you know, when people split up, they often give them surveys of what went wrong in the relationship. And one of the things that a lot of people say well, two things that really pop out is the other person would never tell me how they feel.

这是其一。其二是厌倦了为对方收拾残局——无论是字面还是隐喻意义上。监督别人的协议，试图让他们遵守承诺。就像魔法般，许多关系最终会形成一个非常整洁的人和一个非常邋遢的人，一个极度理性的人和一个情绪化到令人眩晕的人。要让这两者最终和谐共处，需要重大的人生承诺。

So that's one thing. A second thing is I got tired of picking up after the person, you know, in the in the literal and metaphorical sense. You know, monitoring somebody else's agreements, trying to get them to keep their agreements. As if by magic, a lot of relationships will end up with a very tidy person and a very sloppy person, and a very logical person and a very dizzyingly emotional person. And having those two things finally come into harmony with each other takes a major life commitment.

要知道，建立良好亲密的个人关系必须是你真正投入的事情之一。如果不这样做，唉，我曾经历过临终时刻，有人告诉我类似这样的话：我真希望在那个人还活着的时候能告诉他们我爱他们。明白吗？当我听到有人谈论那些本可以通过我称之为‘十秒尴尬对话’轻易解决的问题时，内心会感到极度不安。

You know, that's gotta be one of the things you're really committed to is to have good, close personal relationships. If you don't do that, oh, you know, I've had deathbed experiences where people told me things like, I sure wish I'd been able to tell this person that I loved them while they were still alive. You know? And, oh, that gives me a very deep sense of ill at ease when I hear somebody talk about something that would be so easily fixable in what I call ten seconds of sweaty conversation.

跟我说说，跟我说说那个十秒或十分钟的尴尬对话。

Tell me about tell me about ten tell me about ten seconds or ten minutes of sweaty conversation.

好的。我先给你讲个十秒版本，然后再讲十分钟版的。有位来自保守国家的女士，她丈夫是个地位颇高的人，而她却和丈夫最好的朋友发生了关系。明白吗？那是在某个会议期间的一夜情。

Okay. Let me give you a ten second version of it, and then I'll tell you a ten minute version. We had a woman in from another country and a fairly conservative country, And she was married to a man, kind of a highly placed man, and she had an affair with her with his best friend. Okay? And this was a one night stand with his best friend when they were both at some conference or something like that.

七年来她一直自我安慰说这没什么大不了。‘真的没什么，我们又不是相爱，只是逢场作戏而已’。

Well, she justified that for seven years because it was no big deal. It didn't really nothing happened. You know? We weren't in love or anything like that. It was just one of those things.

这就是她向伴侣隐瞒的理由。但当她来找我们时——起初我们并不知情——她主诉的问题是七年没有性高潮了。在治疗过程中我们发现，很遗憾地告诉大家，人们丧失性愉悦的原因之一，就是他们压抑了本该用十秒尴尬对话说出的真相。那个十秒对话应该是：‘亲爱的，我在1986年10月13日和你最好的朋友发生了关系’。

And so that's the way she justified not telling her partner. But when she came here, we didn't know this at first, by the way. What she came here about was that she had not had an orgasm in seven years. And so as we were working on this, one of the things that happens, I just hate to tell everybody, but one of the reasons people stop having sexual pleasure is because they stuff some truth that should have been said in a ten second sweaty conversation. The ten second sweaty conversation was, honey, I had sex with your best friend on 10/13/1986.

这就是赤裸裸的真相。那么为什么多数人抗拒十秒尴尬对话？因为他们害怕第11秒之后会发生什么。

Okay. So that was the flat out truth of the matter. Okay. And why do most people resist the ten second sweaty conversation? Because they're afraid of what's gonna happen from second 11 on.

他们不想面对对方的反应。猜猜我们让她做了什么？

Okay. They don't want to deal with the person's reaction. Okay. So guess what we had her do? Mr.

夏洛克先生，猜猜我们让她拿起电话做了什么？

Sherlock, guess what we had her pick up the phone and do?

来一场十秒尴尬对话。

A ten second sweaty conversation.

十秒尴尬对话。抱歉我说错了，当时她丈夫其实在场。所以这场对话是：‘七年前我和你最好的朋友发生了关系’。

Ten second sweaty conversation. Actually, I'm sorry. I misspoke. We did we've had him on the phone, but he happened to be here. So the the ten second sweaty conversation was I had sex with your best friend seven years ago.

天啊，接下来的十几二十分钟也相当紧张刺激。但关键在于，她感受到了一种巨大的解脱感。没错。猜猜那晚发生了什么？她回到家，七年来第一次体验到了高潮。

Oh, boy. The next ten or twenty minutes were pretty sweaty too. But the thing is, she felt such a sense of relief Yeah. That guess what happened that night? She went home and had her first orgasm in seven years.

所以这就是为什么我说，你的声带才是你真正需要关注的六英寸性器官。这太棒了。

So that's why I say that your voice box is really the only six inches of sexual apparatus that you need to worry about. That's so great.

太神奇了。

That's fantastic.

所以保持声带畅通，看看你的性能力会发生什么变化。

So keep that voice box open and watch what happens with your sexuality.

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是的。我记得彼得森是第一个明确提出'诚实很重要'的人。后来我又读了萨姆·哈里斯的长篇论文《谎言》，这就像一部关于为何永远不该说谎的论著。他从哲学角度对此采取了近乎冷酷无情的绝对立场。

Yeah. I, I think it was Peterson that was the first person who kind of identified, hey. Telling the truth is something that's important. And then I read, Sam Harris's extended essay called Lying, which is kind of like a a treatise on why you should never lie. He takes a quite, ruthless, unequivocating, like, philosophy view of it.

但这两件事——稍微含糊其辞来扮演某种人设，说些你认为对方想听的话，实在太容易了。你往往会不表达真实感受。经过足够长的时间后，特别是在我二十多岁时，我发现自己过度扮演人设、含糊其辞、甚至篡改真实想法来迎合他人——主要是担心别人不喜欢我，极度渴望被接纳。我执着于获得认可和被看见的心理：'真实的我值得被爱吗？'

But both of those things, it's so easy to just obfuscate a little bit to try and play some persona to say what you think the other person wants to hear. You tend to not actually say what you feel. And then after long enough, what I noticed in my life, especially my twenties, was I'd played personas and obfuscated and and, like, manipulated what I thought when I said it to other people so much, mostly because I was worried about people not liking me, and I really wanted to be accepted. And I had this concern about validation and all the rest of it and being seen. Oh, am I worthy as who I am?

于是我开始伪装成我认为对方会喜欢的版本——这显然是自我挫败的，因为即使他们喜欢你，你也无法真正感受这种赞美，因为你清楚他们喜欢的只是你扮演的角色。更危险的是，如果这种行为持续足够长时间，你会彻底迷失自我信念——你把真实感受和观点埋藏得太深，以至于需要正念练习、日记书写、情绪释放等漫长过程来重新挖掘。你会开始质问：

So I'm not. And what I'll do is I'll try and show up as a version of me that I think they will like, which obviously is totally self defeating because even if they do like you, you never actually feel the praise because you know that they don't like you. They just like this role that you were playing all along. But the dangerous thing is that if you continue to do that for sufficient a sufficiently extended amount of time, you actually don't know what you believe anymore because you you have buried your own feelings and opinions so far down that you can't see them. And then you have to go on this big journey of excavating them with mindfulness practice and journaling and, like, releasing and actually and you go like, okay.

我的真相是什么？我对这件事的真实想法是什么？不是过去五年、十年或三十年我声称的观点，而是我此刻真实的认知？然后你要花费大量时间才能把它挖掘出来。

What is my truth? Like, what do I think about this thing? Not what have I said that I think about this thing for five or ten or thirty years. Like, what do I actually think about this thing? And then it takes all of the time to to dig it out.

所以，我想人们宁愿忍受一生的痛苦，也不愿承受几秒钟的剧痛。而你越是拖延不去解决这种痛苦，就越像搭错了火车。一旦你上了方向错误的列车，走得越远，拖延得越久，要重新搭上正确的列车、折返相反方向所需的时间就越长。

So, yeah, I suppose people would sooner have a lifetime of misery than a few seconds of pain. And the longer that you leave the misery to be dug out, the further it's like getting on the wrong train. If you get on a train that's going in the wrong direction, the further that you go, the longer that you leave it, the longer it's going to take to get back on the right train and come back in the same in the opposite direction.

是啊。我总觉得人们如此普遍地隐藏真实自我这件事很不可思议。而且往往没有正当理由。听到你的英国口音让我想起一件事——有次我在伦敦一家发廊理发。

Yeah. I it's so amazing to me how prevalent it is to hide who you really are. And for no really good reason. I just had a memory listening to your British accent. I was getting a haircut in a hair salon once in London.

当时我突然强烈意识到——有个小插曲让我想起许多英国人对尴尬的恐惧有多敏感，那种害怕出丑的心态。哦，简直根深蒂固。对。当时我正在理发，前门开了，有位先生走进来，发型师放下工具拿起预约本，朝门口走去准备接待预约顾客。

And I became so acutely aware. There was this one little interaction that happened that reminded me about how acutely aware many British people are about fear of embarrassment, not being embarrassed. Oh, massive. Yes. And so I was getting my haircut and the front door opened and a fellow started in and the hairstylist put down her thing and picked up her appointment book and started toward the front door to where her appointment was gonna be made.

结果那人从她身边走过说：'哦不好意思，我是来检查水管之类的'。他根本不是来理发的。她立刻说：'没关系，反正我正要拿着本子去前台'。

And then the guy kinda walked past her and said, oh, excuse me. I'm just here checking the plumbing or something like that. He wasn't there for a haircut. She said, Oh, that's okay. I was just taking my book up to the front anyway.

那个谎言圆场之快让我...我是说，换作你会说'好尴尬，我以为你是来理发的'对吧？

And it was just how quickly the lie covered I Oh, mean, would be You'd say, Oh, I'm embarrassed. You know? I thought you wanted a haircut.

我多蠢啊，居然以为你是来理发的。让我给你讲个类似的故事——大约七年前我在巴厘岛，当时独自旅行准备外出。

How silly in me. I thought that I thought that you came in to get your haircut. Let me give you let me let me give you one that that speaks to that as well. So, I was in Bali about seven years ago. I was traveling on my own, and I was going out there.

我在训练之余暂时放下工作休息四周。旅行进行到第一周时，我骑着从入住酒店租来的摩托，和几个朋友准备去海滩俱乐部。突然一辆卡车从典型的巴厘岛小路窜出来，离我仅20码远，而我当时车速很快。我同时捏下前后刹车——

And I was training and just taking a little bit of a break from work for maybe four weeks. And I was one week into this four week trip, and I was on a moped that I'd rented from the hotel that I was staying in, driving with a couple of friends, and we were gonna go to this beach club. And a truck, classic Balinese road, truck pulls out. It's only 20 yards in front of me, and I'm going at a pretty quick clip. And I pull both of the brakes.

这辆每天50便士租来的摩托，酒店显然没兴趣把它保养得像F1赛车。结果后刹失灵前刹有效，导致车身从我下方滑出。当时我穿着无袖T恤和泳裤，左臂、左肩、左腿外侧以及整个左脚背的皮肤都被巴厘岛路面磨掉了。

I'd rented this moped for 50 p a day from the hotel. It's not exactly in their interests to keep it in tip top Formula One shape. So I pulled it. The back brake didn't go, but the front brake did, which meant that the bike slid out from underneath me. And I had a little, it's like sleeveless T shirt and a pair of swim shorts on, and I lost most of the skin from my left arm, from my left shoulder, from the outside of my left leg, and the whole top of my foot just was eviscerated by Balinese Road.

戴着头盔的我，第一感受不是对卡车司机的愤怒，不是担心伤势，不是害怕后方来车，而是社交羞耻感。

And the first sensation that I had I had a helmet on. The first sensation I had was wasn't anger at the guy in the truck that had pulled out in front of me. It wasn't concern for my injuries. It wasn't worry about whether there was another car that was gonna come behind me. The first thing I felt was social shame.

我满脑子都是'天啊太丢人了'——那两个刚结识的澳大利亚同伴肯定会觉得我蠢爆了。明明我左半边肢体50%的皮肤都没了，躺在巴厘岛路中央，摩托车倒在一旁，可大脑最在意的竟是这场非我过失事故带来的社交尴尬。

I was like, oh, what a cringe thing to do. The all my the two guys that I'm with, the two Australian dudes I'm with that I just made friends with, they're gonna think that I'm so stupid for coming off this bike. Like, I've just I've just lost, like, fifty percent of the skin from my two left limbs. I'm in the middle of a Balinese road with this bike on the floor and all of this stuff, and the the most salient thing that my brain decided that it was gonna attach itself to was the social embarrassment of having just done something that wasn't my fault.

这让我想起一句老话：害怕公开演讲的人如此之多，以至于在葬礼上，更多人宁愿躺在棺材里也不愿致悼词。

Well, it reminds me of that old saying that there are so many people that are afraid of public speaking that at a given funeral, more people would prefer to be in the casket than giving the eulogy.

确实。说得好。我感兴趣的是——为了避免跑题太远——对于感受情绪、说出真相、承担责任这些方面，最常见的障碍或实际感受是什么？人们需要克服哪些最实际的障碍？或者你会用什么方式指出'你其实很少真正感受过自己的情绪'？

Yeah. That's a good point. I'm I'm interested, just so we don't go too far ahead, what are what are the most common obstacles or or just practically feeling feelings, telling truth, taking responsibility? What are the most practical obstacles that people need to come over for each of those, or what are the ways that you say, hey. You haven't tried feeling your feelings all that much.

你还没尝试过说出...你还没尝试过承担责任...当我们实践这些原则时，最基础的核心原则是什么？

You haven't tried telling the you haven't tried taking respond like, what are the foundational principles of the principles when when we get these into practice?

我在华盛顿研究人际关系的老同事约翰·戈特曼多年前提出了'天启四骑士'理论，这些是预示关系破裂的征兆。我自己也有些见解，但先说说他的四个骑士：批评、蔑视、防御和退缩/生闷气。批评尤其会持续扼杀关系中的美好感受。当你采访离婚后走出关系的人问'是什么让你离开'时...

One of my colleagues, my relationship research colleagues up in Washington, John Gottman, came up some years ago with what he called the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which are things that spell doom in a relationship. And I have a couple of my own riffs, but I'll tell you what his four horsemen were. Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and withdrawal or sulking. And so criticism is kind of the chronic slayer of good feeling in relationship. When you interview people who are coming out of relationships after a divorce, what was it that made you leave?

他们常说'我受够了被批评，永远都是我的错'。要知道，长期被否定是极其痛苦的体验。在遇到凯蒂之前，我也有过这样的亲密关系。我成长在一个高标准但充满相互指责的家庭，记忆中从没人说过'我为你骄傲'或'我爱你'之类的话。

I just got sick of being criticized, of being wrong all the time. And, you know, that's a very unpleasant feeling being wrong and being made to feel wrong all of the time. And so, I know I had that in a close relationship before I met Katie. I grew up in a very critical family where people were high achievers, but incredibly critical about each other. And I don't ever remember anybody ever saying anything like, I'm proud of you, or I love you, or great job, or anything like that.

但家人总能迅速指出缺点。当我大学后期开始第一段正式恋爱时，对方是个极度挑剔的女性，而我竟习以为常。她对我事事挑剔，而我深陷'关系本该如此'的思维定式，直到有次拜访另一对伴侣——他们彼此充满肯定。

But it was very quick to point out flaws. So when I got into my first big deal relationship as a grown up in or, you know, latter part of college, I connected up with a woman who was incredibly critical and I didn't even think much about it. But she basically found fault with this about everything I did. But I just was so into that mode of assuming that was the way relationships went that it took me a while to have it dawn on me. We were visiting another couple and they were very positive with each other.

回家路上我突然意识到：这段恋爱五六个月来，我们从未有过十分钟这样的温情时刻。于是我开始觉醒：与其纠结如何消除对方的批评，不如自问'我要做出什么改变，才不再像个批评磁铁？不再活得像个专门接收批评的雷达？'

And I remember going home afterwards thinking, wow, I haven't had ten minutes of that in this relationship so far. We'd been together, you know, like five or six months or something like that. So I began to wake up to my own pattern in that regard. So instead of focusing on getting rid of the other person's criticism, what I focused on, I came over here and said, what do I have to do in myself so I'm not a constant criticism attractor? So that I'm not a living listening for criticism.

这个核心问题的转变至关重要——从'对方有什么毛病'变成'我做了什么招致这些'。后来我结束了那段关系，而下一段恋情就愉悦得多。

Big question shift there rather than what's wrong with them. Why don't they get fixed over here rather than saying, what am I doing to attract this kind of thing? And so that was a big moment for me. And in fact, I ended that relationship. And the next one I got into was so much more pleasant.

新伴侣完全不是挑剔型人格，因为我不再需要那种人了。如今我们实践着自己倡导的原则，45年多来保持着超乎想象的美好爱流——每当问题出现，我会直接说'这件事让我感到难过'，于是关系就能不断重生。

She, you know, she wasn't that kind of person since I didn't require that kind of person. And I'm really, really happy that I've had forty five years, more than that slightly now, of a relationship of the most beautiful flow of love and connection that I could have ever imagined. And it's because we practice what we preach. You know, when stuff comes up, I say, I felt sad about that or whatever. And so it stays rebirthing.

你们可以日复一日地重燃激情。我常对人说：没经历过七十岁的性爱，就不算真正懂得性爱。因为那时候的体验才是...

You can rebirth the passion in a relationship over and over again every day. And so, you know, I I always tell people until you've had sex in your seventies, you haven't had sex yet. You know? Because there's a There's total gonna

会有很多70岁的单身人士在想，是的。多说点。多说点，盖比。我们需要...我们需要...

be a lot of single 70 year olds out there that are thinking, yes. Say more. Say more, Gabe. We need to we we need we

我刚从写书工作中退休，但你无法相信有多少出版商请我写一本关于晚年性生活的书。知道吗？因为凯蒂和我经常参加会议做演讲，很明显我们相处得很愉快。所以嗯...人们总想知道我们是怎么做到的。

I need to be on just retired from writing books, but you cannot believe how many publishers have asked me to write a book about sex in in your latter years. You know? Because Katie and I, we either go to conferences and we give speeches, and it's obviously we're having a great time with each other. So Mhmm. People always wanna know how we do it.

哇。那说真话的另一面呢？所以是的...在我看来，那种共同承诺、相互支持的关系，要让一方敢于说真话，接收方也有责任营造安全氛围对吧？

Wow. What about the other side of telling the truth? So Yeah. It it it Well it seem it seems to me that, the, like, co commitment thing, the this showing up for each other, in order for one person to feel safe in telling the truth, the other the recipient has a role, which is to make it safe for the truth to be told to them. Right?

很多时候你会听到这样的真话：记得你发那条短信时/做那件事时/和同事说话时吗？这让我感到X。当你X时，让我感到Y。对吧？

So a lot of the time, the truths that you're gonna hear, hey. You know when you sent me that text or you know when you did that thing or you know when you were talking to your coworker over there? Like, I it made me feel x. When you x, it made me feel y. Right?

这其实有很好的表达结构。但对接收方来说，这种话常像攻击，像批评，感觉非常针对个人，仿佛我们的意图被关联甚至指控了。

There's, like, a good structure to this. But a lot of the time, that sentence to the recipient can feel like an attack. It can feel like a criticism. It can feel very personal. It can feel like our intentions are being, associated with that and and, accused.

那么良好接纳真相和令人不适的话语，应该是什么样子？

What does good receiving of of truth and uncomfortable, sentences, what does that look like?

本质上就是能不带退缩或防御地倾听。防御心理毁掉很多关系。比如有对年轻夫妻，妻子问'你现在感受如何'时，丈夫总用玩笑回避'你不会想听这些的'。

Ultimately, it looks like being able to hear whatever somebody is saying without flinching or without needing to defend in some way. Defensiveness kills a lot of relationships too. Like, a classic example would be a couple we had in here a while back, a younger couple, but he was in the habit of she would ask him, how are you feeling right now? And he would make a joke out of it. He'd kinda turn, oh, you don't wanna hear stuff like that.

但她是真心想知道。这种互动多来几次，亲密感就消失了。就像政客（不点名）屡次说谎后，人们就不再关注他们，觉得'这不是我想要的总统或参议员'。

You know? And but she was sincerely interested in that. And you don't have to do that too many times in a relationship to kind of turn off the easeful flow of intimacy. It's just like if you ask a politician, not naming names, a bunch of times to tell you the truth and they lie to you on every occasion they can, you kind of stop paying attention to them. You say, hey, that's not exactly my president or my senator.

感情中最可悲的是，记得天启四骑士中的'防御'吗？这常让倾听者出问题。我们亨德里克斯研究所就有案例：千万别在对方开车时进行十秒紧张对话——真有人因此冲出高速公路。还有对农场夫妻，妻子突然想坦白某事，跑到田里对拖拉机上的丈夫说真话，结果他气得乱开拖拉机毁了一片庄稼。

So but the real sad thing in relationships is, well, remember the second horsemen of the apocalypse, defensiveness, that gets on the problem of the listener a lot of times. Because one of our our victims here at the Hendrix Institute is don't have a ten second sweaty conversation while the other person is driving. Because we've actually had people swerve off the freeway because the person told an untimely truth. As a matter of fact, even better, we had a farming couple one time that she got the urge to tell him the truth and walked about something and walked out into the field and told him in his tractor, and he ended up swerving over and cutting a big swath through stuff that he didn't wanna cut down because he got so mad about that. But Yeah.

关键是谨慎选择时机，可以先问'现在方便听重要的事吗？甚至问'能以开放心态听吗？'有时对方会拒绝，但多数时候会说好。

The the bottom line is choose your timing carefully, but also would you like to hear this is what you ask the other person. Would you like to I've got something important. Would you be willing to hear that right now? And you can even say, would you be willing to hear that in an open minded, open hearted way? And sometimes the person will say no, but most of the time they'll say yes.

当然，这并不能保证他们会那样做，但这能让他们参与进来。这相当于建立了一份契约。而大多数真诚交流中缺失的，正是与听众之间某种形式的契约。比如，你现在想听这个吗？因为很多时候，如果你突然说出憋在心里很久的话，我称之为向对方扔下一颗18磅重的智慧珍珠。

That doesn't guarantee they will do that, of course, but it gets them online. It makes a contract. And what's missing in most most truth communications is the lack of a contract of some sort with the listener. Like, do you want to hear this right now? Because a lot of times, if you just blurt out something that you've been holding on for a while, I call it dropping an 18 pound pearl of wisdom on the person.

砰的一声，懂吗？因为他们没有预料到，也没有心理准备。这就是为什么我们在书中特别教导中年及以上的伴侣们——我们有本叫《有意识的爱·后半生》的书，面向四五十岁及以上的伴侣们——其中重要的一点是：每周安排两次简短会谈。

Bam. You know? Because they don't they're not expecting it. They're not prepared for it. That's why we say one of the things we teach in our books, especially for midlife and beyond couples, we have a book called Conscious Loving Ever After for midlife and beyond, like couples in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, etcetera.

我们教他们每周进行两次15分钟左右的短会（我们定在周二周四晚上，但时间不重要）。一次用来交流感受，另一次处理日常事务。前者叫'心灵对话'，后者叫'事务对话'。

One of the important things we teach them to do is have two little meetings a week, like fifteen minute meetings, ten minute meetings. Here, we do it on Tuesday and Thursday night, but it doesn't matter. One of them is for feelings, and the other one is for stuff. One of them is called the heart talk. One of them is called the stuff talk.

事务对话可能是这样的：'凯文的足球训练这周五点结束，你能改到五点接他吗？'别小看这些事——我见过有人因为对方接孩子迟了半小时而暴怒地冲进咨询室。所以落实生活细节的约定非常重要，因为微小矛盾的积累往往就是这样开始的。

And stuff talk is, oh, you know, Kevin's soccer practice ends at five this week. Can you pick him up then rather than 05:30? Boy, if that doesn't get done, I've seen people come here in here in a storming fury because somebody was thirty minutes late picking up somebody at soccer practice. So it's really important to get the nitty gritty of your agreements covered. And so one thing that happens is little tiny things build up.

矛盾未必是'我有外遇'这种大事，更多是'今天我忘了接凯文'这类小事。你会发现，十秒钟的坦诚沟通就能避免这些矛盾发酵。

It's not always things like I'm having an affair. It's little things like, oh, you know what? I forgot to pick up Kevin today. You know? That when you realize that that ten seconds sweaty communication, goes a long way to clearing up those kinds of things.

所以防御机制的关键在于获得对方'愿意倾听'的承诺。另一种防御表现是：对方听到真话时不发火，但会岔开话题。他们看似在听，实则屏蔽了后续内容。好的关系咨询会处理这些问题。

So defensiveness, getting the other person to agree that they want to hear what you have to say. Super important thing. Another type of defensiveness is people who not blow up when you tell them the truth, but they veer off and change the subject. And so they start to hear it, but they kind of shut the rest of it out. And, you know, if you're in good relationship counseling, all these things will get dealt with.

但我发现当今很多关系咨询就像'泰坦尼克号上擦拭甲板椅'——只处理表面问题，而不去挖掘我们之前提到的三大根本矛盾。

But I found that a lot of relationship counseling that goes on today is, what I call dusting the deck chairs on the Titanic, that you're trying to fix surface level things rather than finding out what the fundamental issues are below of those kind of big three things that we've talked about that aren't getting dealt with.

插播提醒：如果你训练状态低迷、恢复缓慢或感觉不适，问题可能不在训练计划或饮食，而是锌这种不起眼的元素。虽然东革阿里等补剂有帮助，但锌对睾酮分泌、力量、恢复和精力都至关重要。多数人长期缺锌，因此我强烈推荐Momentous锌剂——它能支持睾酮水平，提升活力，让身体机能正常运转。

Before we continue, if your workouts feel flat, your recovery's slow, or you've just been feeling off, it might not be a training plan or your diet. It might be something a bit more boring like zinc. And while supplements like tonkat ali can help, zinc quietly plays a huge role in testosterone production. Strength, recovery, and energy, and most people are chronically low on it, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Momentous's zinc. It supports testosterone, boosts vitality, and helps keep everything running like it should.

最重要的是它获得NSF运动认证，代表经过独立检测，确保纯度和安全性，不含任何可疑成分，连奥运选手都可使用。若存疑虑，Momentous提供30天退款保证，你甚至可以试用29天。他们还支持国际配送。

Best of all, it's NSF certified for sport, which means it's been independently tested and approved for purity, safety, and zero shady ingredients. So even Olympic athletes can use it and and you too. And if you're still unsure, Momentous offers a thirty day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for twenty nine days. If you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally.

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Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that thirty day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's livem0ment0us.com/modernwisdomand modern wisdom at checkout. What about just to linger on that for one more moment. Let's say that you're the recipient of the person telling the truth and you hear something which is uncomfortable. What is your advice for being receptive to, not be as agitated, to not be as defensive?

比如，在这方面如何才能成为一个好的倾听者？

Like, how how can you be a good listener in that regard?

最好的方式是非评判性倾听，表达你的感受，比如让对方把话说完。打断是最破坏关系的行为之一。无论谁在听或看这个，都不要打断你的伴侣。这是个坏主意。我从未见过这在任何情况下有帮助。

The very best would be nonjudgmental listening, report of how you're feeling, like letting the person finish, for example. Like, interrupting is one of the worst relationship killers. Whoever you are listening or watching this, do not interrupt your mate. It's a bad idea. I've never seen it helpful in any kind of situation.

很多时候我们没有给对方空间完成他们要说的话。所以第一，给予空间，然后对那个无可争议的回应给出真实的反应。哦，天哪，我不知道该怎么处理。哦，我现在感到害怕。哦，当你那么说时我感到很生气。

So a lot of times we don't give the other person space to finish what they're saying. So number one, give space and then give an authentic response to that unarguable response. Oh boy, I don't know how to handle that. Oh geez, I'm feeling scared right now. Oh, I feel so angry when you say that.

哦，我想哭。你知道，这些是真实的反应。防御性的反应是，你为什么现在告诉我这个？凯蒂和我之前看电影时，一对体型超重的夫妇挤过来坐在我们前面。他们俩加起来可能超重一百公斤，如果你平均一下的话。

Oh, I feel like crying. You know, those kinds of things are an authentic response. What's defensive is, why did you tell me that now? Katie and I were in the movies a while back, and a very out of shape couple kinda wedged their way through and sat right in front of us. And, you know, between the two of them, they were probably, you know, to a hundred kilos overweight if you average both of them together.

过了一会儿，他站起来离开了。电影开始前他回来了，带着一个巨大的爆米花桶。你知道，就是那种14美元的大桶。当他坐在她旁边时，她说，哦，你非得这么做吗？为什么你要这么做？

Well, he got up after a while and left. And he came back before the movie started with the giganticest tub of popcorn. You know, like one of those $14 ones that's like a tub. And when he sat down next to her, she said, oh, did you have to do that? Why did you do that?

你知道我忍不住那个。所以立刻，而不是说，天哪，我想吃掉那整桶爆米花。她却开始责怪他，显然这是她自己控制爆米花消费能力的挑战。如果你把问题归咎于桶的大小或伴侣，你就错过了与自己进行那十秒钟紧张对话的机会，你会说，天哪，我超重五十公斤，差点吃了爆米花，感觉糟透了。嗯。

You know I can't resist that. So immediately, instead of, oh my god, I wanna eat that whole bag of bucket of pocket. Instead, she went into blaming him for what was obviously a challenge in herself of her own ability to control her popcorn consumption. And so if you make it about the size of the tub or the partner, you miss out on the opportunity to actually have that sweaty ten second conversation with yourself where you say, Oh my God, I weigh fifty kilos too much, and I almost ate some popcorn right there and felt miserable. Mhmm.

那些时刻，你知道，就像我的一位伟大英雄肯·赫克特，他是好莱坞的制片人。我住在离好莱坞大约一个半小时的地方。所以我们常说，一旦你在好莱坞成功了，你就在奥海或圣巴巴拉买房子。我住在奥海。所以我们这里有很多娱乐圈的人。

Those kind of moments, you know, like my one of my great heroes, Ken Hecht, he's a producer here in Hollywood. I only live about an hour and a half from Hollywood. So a lot of people we always have a saying, once you make it in Hollywood, you buy a place in Ojai or Santa Barbara. And I live in Ojai. So we have a lot of folks here who are, you know, entertainment kind of folks.

有一位叫肯·赫克特的制片人，他超重123磅。一个周六晚上，他感到孤独，发现自己醒来站在冰箱前找东西吃。那时是晚上10:30。他进行了那十秒钟的紧张对话，意识到，哦，我不饿，我孤独。

And there's a producer named Ken Hecht who was a hundred and twenty three pounds overweight. One Saturday night, he was feeling lonely, and he found himself he kinda woke up, and he was standing in front of the refrigerator looking inside for something to eat. And it was like 10:30 at night. And he had this ten second sweaty conversation with himself where he realized, oh, I'm not hungry. I'm lonely.

我开始吃东西是为了让自己感觉不那么孤独。砰。是的。从那一刻起，他减掉了120磅。那改变了一切。

I'm starting to eat something to make myself feel less lonely. Boom. Yeah. He lost a 120 pounds starting at that moment. That changed everything.

所以能够就像，我想，我从未亲眼见过，但一个人第一次在匿名戒酒会上站起来说，我叫约翰，我是个酒鬼。他们做到了。你知道，他们进行了那十秒钟的紧张对话。昨天他们可能还在告诉朋友，我能应付，我能应付得了。

So being able to just it's like, I suppose, I've never seen this in person, but a person is stands up at an Alcoholics Anonymous group for the very first time and says, my name's John and I'm an alcoholic. They nail it. You know, they have that ten second sweaty conversation. Yesterday, they might have been telling their friends, I can handle it. I can handle it okay.

然后就是那个顿悟时刻，完全接纳，之后事情就会朝着积极的方向发展。

And then there's that moment of realization, full ownership, and things progress from there in a positive way.

所以我感兴趣的是，我们现在讨论的是一种程度的妥协，某种需要大量理解的过程。我想知道你应该在多大程度上刻意调整自己表达爱的方式，而不是仅仅做自己、展现真实的你。我觉得这种结合与个体化之间的平衡，以及如何驾驭它，是人们——我感觉自己正在失去自主权，但又有种感觉，也许这才是更好的我。也许这是我的不足。也许这个领域并不属于我的自我认知。

So something I'm interested in, what we're talking about here is a degree of compromise, a degree of sort of, like, a lot of understanding that needs to be done here. I'm interested in how much you should deliberately step in to adjust sort of your own approach to loving versus just being yourself and showing up as you. I think this balance of union and individuation and navigating that is an area that people they I feel like I'm losing my autonomy here, but then there's this sense, well, maybe this is me, but better. Maybe this is a an an insufficiency of mine. Maybe this is an area in which it it it's not a part of my sense of self.

比如我易怒的特质，或者我的怨恨、耿耿于怀、无法超越自我、或是难以感知情绪的能力。这些真的构成你人格的核心吗？就像‘你不该改变我，我热爱我的愤怒’这样？还是说，这其实是通过这段关系的结合，将我自己无法单独转化的东西进行升华的机会？

My quickness to anger, right, or my bitterness or my resentment or my inability to get over myself or my lack of ability to feel my feelings. Like, is that really the seat of your person? Like, oh, that's where like, you shouldn't be changing me. I love my anger. I love like, oh, this is an opportunity to alchemize something that I, on my own, couldn't do through the union of this relationship.

而我们身上还有些特质会让我们觉得‘不，那就是我’。比如我是个敏感的人，或充满激情的人，或精力充沛的人，或平和的人。这感觉像是被告知要放弃部分自主权，为了关系的结合牺牲某些个性，这种妥协我还没准备好接受。所以在调整自我表达与保持真我之间，结合与个体化之间的平衡，我很想知道人们如何把握这个度，不知道这样说是否清楚。

And then there's other parts of us that we think, well, no. Like, that is me. I'm sense I'm a sensitive person, or I'm a passionate person, or I'm an energetic person, or I'm a peaceful person. And this feels like I'm being told to lose some of my autonomy, to sort of lose some of my individuation in service of the union, and this is a a compromise that I'm not prepared to do. So this balance between adjusting your own approach versus just being yourself, union, individuation, I'm interested in how people navigate that, if that makes sense.

哦，非常清楚。其实我很感谢你提出这个话题，因为所有正在收听或观看的观众，包括你我，都曾经历过出生和六个月大的阶段。让我告诉你这短暂时期发生了什么——因为亲密关系中每天都在重演这个模式。前六个月是关于建立信任、与他人结合、完全放松地依赖照顾者（通常是母亲，但有时不是）。

Oh, it makes perfect sense. In fact, I really appreciate you bringing up this subject because, well, everybody here that's listening or watching this, including you and me, have been born and we've been six months old. And let me tell you what happens in that little period of time because it gets replayed every day in close relationships. The first six months are about establishing trust, union with another person, being able to let go fully into your caregiver. Most of the time that's with your mother, but sometimes it's not.

有时这种联结并不理想。可能因为母亲或环境因素阻碍了信任感和联结安全感的发展。这些模式在生命最初六个月就已奠定。六个月后，我们开始爬行探索世界。

And sometimes that's not a good connection. Sometimes there's something going on with your mother or with the environment that keeps that sense of trust from developing and that sense of ease with connection. So those tracks are laid down in the first six months of life. At six months, what happens is we start crawling and adventuring. So you start going out into the world.

当你探索世界遇到障碍时，就会回到照顾者身边寻求安抚。就像爬行时被狗吠吓到，你会迅速爬回妈妈怀里求拥抱。我昨天刚看了一头小象——我喜欢自然纪录片——YouTube上有段非洲野生动物短片，小象正追逐其他动物...

And what happens is you go out into the world and then if you encounter obstacles, you go back to your caregiver and you clutch mom or you, you know, nurtured again. If you go out crawling across the floor and the dog barks at you, you scurry back to mom and, you know, get a hug. And I was just watching a baby elephant yesterday. I love nature shows. And I was watching a nature show, a little nature clip on YouTube where it showed a baby elephant chasing some other animals around, you know, the the the place in Africa where all these were.

突然小象摔倒了。

And suddenly the baby elephant fell over.

我看过这个视频。

I saw this video.

它怎么...哦你也看过！它跑回妈妈身边了对吧？我也是这么想的。

What did it I saw this Oh, you've seen it. It ran back to its mom. Yeah. Me too. You know?

是的。这种模式在日常生活中的体现就是，我们不断个性化自我，成为更真实的自己，同时学会如何在关系中放手。因此，结合与分离并非每六个月发生一次，在亲密关系中它每六秒就在发生——你始终在连接他人，同时保持自我。

Yeah. And so how that gets replayed in everyday life is we're constantly in the process of individuating ourselves, becoming more of who we are, and learning how to let go into relationship at the same time. So union and union and individuation doesn't happen every six months. It's happening every six seconds in a close relationship. You're always connecting and also being yourself.

正因如此，我刚翻看了我们三十五年前在奥普拉节目推荐的《觉醒之爱》。我们首次上她节目就是推广这本书。我看着书架上的它，副标题写着：如何在关系中全然做自己，如何亲密无间却不丧失自我。

That's why I'm just looking, our Oprah book, Conscious Loving from thirty five years ago. The first time we were on her show, we were on there with that book. I'm just looking over at my bookshelf. And the subtitle is how to be fully yourself and in relationship at the same time. How to be fully together without giving up yourself.

这种日常修行就是要明白：生命的意义在于更深入地连接自我，同时为他人留出共情与空间。多年来我见证临终时刻时，常听到人们懊悔：'天啊，我真不该把那么多时间耗在办公室'，或是'为什么我没对已逝之人说过我爱你？'

And so this daily practice of knowing that your life is about getting more in touch with yourself and having more empathy and space for other people. That's what it's all about. And, you know, from having been at death beds over the years from people who were passing out of this, mortal thing we've got going here, I've heard of people say things like, oh, god. I wish I hadn't spent so much time at the office. Why didn't I ever say I love you, you know, to somebody who's dead?

人们总带着未竟之事生活，其实那些话只需十秒或十分钟的对话就能完成。不必总是郑重其事。比如我和妻子每周互相询问：'此刻我做什么或说什么能让你在关系中感受到更多被爱与珍视？'这是个开放式邀请——有则畅言，无则安然。

So there's there's all these incompletions that people walk around with that are the things that need to be said in those ten second or ten minute conversations. They don't always need to be sweaty. You know, you could say, like, my wife and I have a question that we ask each other every week, which is, is there anything that I could be doing or saying right now that might make you feel more loved and treasured in our relationship. And it's an invitation. If there is something, great, say it.

但活在这个问题中意味着我们始终在探寻：'此刻我做什么能让她眼中有光？'这难道不有趣吗？为了...

If not, great. Things are going along just fine. But living in that question means that I'm always and she's always looking for, is there anything that I could be doing or saying that would make her light up? Isn't it interesting? To make

是啊。双方这种开放性多么奇妙——我们共同投入这段关系，不仅是承诺，更是共同承诺。

yeah. Just so so interesting that, the openness from both parties here, hey. We're in this together. We're not just committed. We're co committed.

你看见最好的我，我看见最好的你。我相信你的判断力，甚至认为你在某些方面——或许许多方面——比我自己更懂我。这种无我的状态，让我不再紧抓自我认同，不再固执己见，也不再把一切视为人身攻击。

You see the best in me. I see the best in you. I have faith that your judgment is good, and I actually believe that you may, in some ways, know me better than I know myself, maybe in many ways. And the sort of egolessness of it, I'm not gripping too tightly to this sense of me. I'm not being rigid, and I'm not seeing things as personal attacks.

看，我们正在共同构建这段关系，缔造这种伙伴关系。我认为这是种谦卑，可以说是共同谦卑。

Hey. We're building this thing together. We're building this partnership together. Think it's it's a kind of humility. It's like cohumility in that way.

这似乎至关重要。

It seems pretty important.

确实。从实际角度说，当人们来做关系咨询时，首要任务往往是让双方都承认渴望美好关系。因为常见情况是：一方早已心不在焉却未告知对方，这种精神离婚可能发生在半年前或六年前，他们从未真正回归关系。所以承诺是解决任何关系问题的首要关键。

It yeah. Because well, I'll I'll just tell you from a practical standpoint, when people come in for relationship counseling, pretty much the first thing we have to do is get them to both agree that they want to have a great relationship. You know, because a lot of times people come in and person one over here has decided a long time ago that they're out of the relationship, but they haven't told number two over here. You know, that it's a spiritual divorce that happened six months ago or six years ago, and they have never gotten back into the relationship. And so commitment is a key first step in any kind of clearing up any kind of relationship issue.

因为如果能让双方都说‘我想和你建立美好关系，这正是我来这里的目的’。但很多时候，对方其实是出于其他目的。如果他们说实话，他们会说‘我不是来修复与你的关系，我是来证明我决定离开的理由’。

Because if you can get both people to say, I want to have a great relationship with you. That's what I'm here for. A lot of times, though, the person is there for something different. And if they were telling the truth, they would say, I'm not here to fix my relationship with you. I'm here to justify why I decided to leave.

是的。所以我在治疗师办公室里悄悄观察后发现，如果你带着这种态度来咨询，最好一开始就让对方知道。我们通过肢体语言就能判断出来。如果对方被问‘你是否决心与简或约翰建立美好关系’时...

Yes. And so, you know, I'm kind of peeking backstage in the therapist's office there to tell you that if you're coming into counseling with that kind of attitude, you know, let the person know right up there. And we can tell it with their body language. We don't have to have it. You know, if the person says, we say, you know, are you committed to having a great relationship with Jane or John?

他们回答‘当然，我完全投入，不然我来干嘛？’——这种防御性回应我已经听了五十年。

And they say, well, well, of course, I'm completely committed to that. Well, I'm here, aren't I? You know, that's a that's a summation of fifty years of defensive responses that I've heard from people.

嗯。嗯。嗯。好的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

那共同承诺呢？实现共同承诺需要哪些步骤？这对你意味着什么？

What about co commitment? What are the what are the steps to co commitment, and what what does that mean to you?

就是选择参与这场游戏。我高中打过两年橄榄球，虽然运动细胞有限，但我觉得这是吸引女生的最佳方式。毕竟运动员总是和学校里最酷的女孩们走在一起。这对当时戴着厚眼镜、梨形身材的胖书呆子来说很有吸引力。

It's choosing to be in the game. I was a very I played high school football for two years, and I was minimally athletic, but I I I thought it was the best way to please the girls. Right? Because I noticed that the athletes always walked around with the cool girls in the high school. And so that was a big motivation since I was a portly nerd that wore big thick glasses and was sort of pear shaped at the time.

那时的我就像个被身体拖着的脑袋。十一年级时我参加了校二队，整年都坐冷板凳。直到赛季末我们领先49分时，教练才让我和几个同样不擅长运动的队友上场。

I was I was a head being carried around by a body. And so, I decided to go out for junior varsity football in my eleventh year. And I spent the entire year sitting on the bench that never let me in, except toward the end of the season. We were ahead 49 points at one point. And so I think at that point, the coach said said it was safe to send me and a couple of my unathletic partners in.

上场那一刻我突然明白：必须全身心投入比赛，就算领先49分也要认真对待。很多关系里，承诺就是这样逐渐消失的——可能因为兴趣转移、渐行渐远。我在科罗拉多执业时认识一位治疗师同事...

So we got in there, and I remember distinctly, though, the difference of something that happened the moment I stepped onto the field. Suddenly I realized I have to be committed to being here. I have to play this game no matter whether we're 49 points ahead. I have to play this game like I mean it. And so, you know, in in a lot of relationships, that commitment has wandered off, you know, through different interests or just drifting apart or, you know, like, I one of my actually, he's a therapist where I used to practice out in Colorado.

他告诉我（我们聊到彼此都离过婚）：我在22、23岁时结束了一段无意识的婚姻，虽然收获很多。我问他如何决定结束第一段婚姻？因为他当时也刚大学毕业就结婚，现在有了美满的新关系。

He told me, just as a colleague, we were talking about because we'd both been divorced. I got divorced after a couple of years of a really unconscious loving marriage when I was 22 or 23 years old. And I learned a lot from it, but I was really good. And I asked him, you know, how did you decide to leave your first marriage? Because he'd done the same thing.

他说：‘决定离开那天，我结束三天出差满心期待见她。结果她一开门就说：楼上马桶坏了，谢天谢地你回来了。’

He'd been kind of gotten married to somebody right out of college and hadn't worked out, but he was in a great relationship now. And he said, well, the day I decided to leave was I came home from a three day working trip, and I was so ready to see her. And she opened the door and the first thing she said was, the upstairs toilet is broken. Thank God you're home. Yeah.

就这样成了。你知道吗？他当时情绪高涨，对接上后兴奋不已，然后突然就...是的。这类时刻确实能产生那种，你懂的，很少有人会基于逻辑原因离开一段关系。

And that did it. You know? He was so high and excited about connecting and then boom. Yeah. And, yeah, those kind of moments can make such a you know, very few people leave a relationship for logical reasons.

你可能有42条逻辑理由，但归根结底都源于某个情绪化的瞬间。

You may have 42 logical reasons, but it's built in some kind of emotional moment.

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我猜你没我这么沉迷Instagram——希望如此。由于算法反向破译了我当前兴趣，最近总刷到温馨的巢穴监控视频。有个爆火片段叫《男人真正渴望的》：约莫四十五岁的壮汉在车库硬拉看着像500磅（或许更重）的杠铃，懂吗？

I imagine that you don't spend as much time on Instagram as I'd I hope you don't spend as much time on Instagram as I do. But, because this has been emotions relating as the algorithm has reverse engineered where my interests are at the moment. So I'm getting a lot of, Nest, recording cam footage of of stuff that's, like, real loving things. It's this real famous video of, what every man really wants, and it's this dude and his maybe he's maybe forty, forty five, like, big guy in his garage, and he's deadlifting what looks like 500 pounds, maybe more. Right?

那是个非常非常重的杠铃，他面前可能站着他的儿子。他正奋力举起这个重量，而他的儿子在一旁蹦跳着喊，加油，爸爸。加油。加油，爸爸。加油。

It's a big, big weight, and he's got maybe his son in front of him. And he's lifting this weight up, and his son's jumping up and down going, go, daddy. Go. Go, daddy. Go.

还有另一个场景，一位父亲打开冰箱，他的女儿站在他身后的厨房里。她问，爸爸你要去健身房吗？他回答，是啊。然后她说，哇，我真为你骄傲，说完就走开了。

And, then another one, which is a dad opening the fridge, and his daughter's there, in the in the kitchen behind him. And she says, are you going to the gym, daddy? And he goes, yeah. And she went, wow. I'm so proud of you, and just walks off.

那位父亲瞬间崩溃大哭。对吧？最近我还看到一个视频，一个男人下班回家，户外摄像头对着房子门口拍下的连续画面。他每天开车回来，每一天，他的妻子都会在门口等他。

And his dad, like, just breaks down crying. Right? Another one that I've seen recently is a, man getting home from work, and it's a a montage of this outdoor camera facing the the door of the house. And he pulls in, and it's every single day. And every single day that he pulls in, his wife's waiting at the door for him.

他一下车，她就跑过去给他一个拥抱。这和‘楼上马桶坏了需要你修’形成鲜明对比。我想说的是，对于之前提到的三个层面——宏观趋势、进化心理学基础、现代文化，我认为人们对此感到非常沮丧。社会经济层面，男性表现并不理想。这意味着那些接受高等教育并有收入的女性，可选择的合适伴侣非常匮乏。

And as soon as he gets out of the car, she, like, runs over and gives him a hug. And, like, that's the opposite of the toilet upstairs is broken, and I need you to do the thing. My point here is I I really do think for all the first three buckets that I talked about, the macro trends, the evolutionary psychology underpinnings, the modern culture, I think people are very despondent about what those are. Socioeconomically, guys aren't doing particularly well. It means there's a dearth of eligible partners for women who are doing the the the college and and earning thing.

哦，情况不妙。还有男性退缩、选择独善其身的现象，激进的女性主义，以及所有这些事情。然后不。不。不。

Oh, not good. And retreats and and men going their own way and aggressive feminism and, you know, all of this stuff. Then no. No. No.

进化心理学非常刻板，不太擅长建立联系、展示情感或处理其他这类事务，还容易让人感到不适。看看这种编程——仿佛三十万年前就在操控着我。这实在不怎么样。还有文化因素：女性杂志、非自愿独身者、红色药丸理论、约会节目等等这些。

Evolutionary psychology, very sterile, not particularly great at sort of relating and showing and doing all the rest of this stuff, also can be a a source of discomfort for people. Look at this programming that's, you know, marionetting me from 300,000 years ago. Like, that's not very good. And then the culture thing. Oh, the girl mags and incels and red pill and and and and dating shows and all of this stuff.

你知道，这些都很糟糕。而对我来说，存在一个更清醒、更专注、更积极、更具关系性的视角。我真心认为，如果能让人理解这种观点——嘿，你可以与人结合，生活不是50加50等于100，而是100加100等于200。

You know, it's all really bad. And then there's this pocket for me, which is a much more conscious, mindful, positive, some relational approach. And I I really do think that if we can get people into this sort of perspective, if they can really understand, hey. You can have union with somebody, and your life can be it's not fifty and fifty makes a 100. It's a 100 and a 100 makes 200.

在一起时，你们比单独时更强大，但这需要双方共同努力。就像里克·鲁宾说的'低语'——他关注文化中的细微信号，比如我在奥斯汀Soho House泳池边听到的对话，或是看到的新闻标题、YouTube评论。像福尔摩斯那样拼凑线索，我认为关系革命的土壤已经非常肥沃，只是人们还不敢迈出那一步。

Together, you are better than you could be apart, but it takes work from both people. I just I'm seeing, Rick Rubin calls them whispers. So he pays attention to to whispers in the culture, to little conversations I'll hear at the pool at Soho House in here in Austin or or just a headline that I see or a comment that I see on a YouTube video or whatever. And you sort of like the Sherlock Holmes thing, you'd start to piece these bits together, and I think there's a real fertile ground for a a wonderful relational revolution. It's just it's scary for people to do.

现代浪漫关系中'五五开'的观念根深蒂固，让人难以相信：若自己先承担100%责任，伴侣最终也会这样做。说到意识关系中200%责任的概念，你在说服人们'改变伴侣的唯一方式是改变自己'时，遇到的最大障碍是什么？如何克服？人们如何建立这种信念？

And I think, you know, that co commitment thing, the idea of fifty fifty is so pervasive in modern romance. So there's a a difficulty for helping people to trust that if they take a 100% responsibility for everything, that their partner will do the same in the end. And, yeah, I I I guess when it comes to the concept of that 200% responsibility in conscious relationships, what are the biggest obstacles that you face when convincing people that the only way to change their partner is by actually changing themselves? How do you overcome that obstacle? How do people get that faith?

你触及了关键问题。文化产品如电视情景剧呈现的男女关系（或任何关系）模板太过标准化。我们15%的客户是同性伴侣，但我要说的具有普适性。很多关系早期破裂都源于某种竞争意识——争夺孩子偏爱或在其他方面较劲，这正是'五五开'责任划分导致的。

Well, you've touched on something incredibly important because out in the culture, you know, like if I watch a television sitcom or something like that, you know, it presents such a completely standardized version of what male female relationships are supposed to be or any other kind of relationship for that matter. About fifteen percent of the people we've worked with over the years are in same sex relationships. So what I wanna say applies to people across the board. But one of the things that you see in relationships a lot of times that destroys them early on is some sense of competitiveness, Comparative competitive kind of thing where you're competing for favor among the children or competing in some way, with each other. And so that comes from that fifty fifty kind of responsibility fighting over whose 50% is it.

唯一解决之道就是双方各承担100%责任。但如你所知，多数关系并非如此构建。看看政治领域——每日新闻都在上演受害者-迫害者戏码，多少政客整天抱怨被对方党派打压？

The only solution for that is that taking a 100% responsibility, one person, and the other person taking a 100%. That's the only way out. And as you well know, though, that's not the way many relationships are set up. In fact, out in the society, like if you watch politics, you know, if you watch the news every day, you see the victim persecutor dynamic in action all the time. How many politicians speak every day about how they are being oppressed or somehow inconvenienced by the other party?

从没有参议员会说'我对此负责'，永远都是'对方阻碍了我'。我毕生的事业就是创造让人安全说真话的环境——比如投票给承认'我们面临严峻问题，虽不知如何解决，但愿与所有志同道合者共同努力'的政客。

You know, nobody stands up on the floor of the senate and says, I take responsibility for this. You know? And it's always the other guys are responsible for keeping me from doing what I wanna do. And so what my life has been about and what my revolution is all about is making it okay and safe for everybody to tell the truth. Like, wanna vote for a politician that says, we've got some serious problems.

这种对话如今实在太少。事实上，现在说真话的人往往会被解雇。

I don't have the slightest idea how to deal with a lot of them, but I sure want to be working on them with everybody else who wants to work on them and who wants to play. You know, that's the spirit in which we're going to get things done. But I don't see much of that conversation going on. In fact, it's usually nowadays, if anybody tells the truth, they get fired.

这在政治上确实缺乏吸引力。政治本就是竞争，需要不择手段击败对手。政客推行的是选民愿意投票支持的政策——就像人们抱怨YouTube标题党，但如果不点击，创作者自然会停止生产。

It's very unseductive. I suppose, at least in politics, it's a it is a competition. Right? You need to beat the other person by any means necessary, and whatever's most compelling to most of the electorate is what people will vote for what politicians will give the policies that people will vote for because if they voted for something else, the politicians would do that. It's the same reason that anybody who complains about clickbait on YouTube, they go, dude, well, if you didn't click on it, the the creators the creators would stop creating it.

谈到共同承诺时，常见的情况是双方都固执己见，希望对方先迈出那一步——'我会全心投入，但希望你也能这样做'。

But, yeah, I think a lot of the time, when we're talking about this sort of co commitment thing, I'm gonna give everything. I'm really gonna dedicate myself to this, and I want you to do the same. A lot of the time, both partners tend to dig their heels in, and they want the other person to go first.

如果你愿意承诺，我也会。

I'd be committed if you were.

是啊。如果他们愿意承担责任，我也会，但这完全违背了初衷，形成了先有鸡还是先有蛋的困境。那么该如何突破这种局面呢？

Yeah. I will take responsibility if they take responsibility too, which sort of defeats the purpose entirely and creates this chicken or egg scenario. So how how do you overcome that?

你需要与对方共同努力，直到他们意识到承担责任比争夺受害者角色要舒坦得多。大多数夫妻争吵都是抢占道德制高点的竞赛。一方占据受害者位置指责对方，另一方就会反驳：等等，毁掉你生活的不是我，你才是毁掉我生活的人。然后争执就愈演愈烈。

Well, you work with the person until they're able to see that taking responsibility feels so much better than arguing for the victim position. Most couples arguments are a race to occupy the victim position. One person gets into the victim position, blames the other, and the other person says, wait a minute, I'm not the one that's ruining your life. You're the one that's ruining my life. And then off they go.

所以我已故的导师埃里克·伯恩医学博士常说，多数人一生中真正的亲密时刻连十五分钟都不到，因为他们深陷受害者-迫害者的动态关系，从未承担足够责任去醒悟：原来是我自己造就了现在的生活。哇，那才是真正掌握力量的时刻，是获得真实能动性的瞬间。可惜这种顿悟实在太罕见了。

That's why one of my great elder mentors, the late Eric Byrne, MD used to say that most people don't experience fifteen minutes of genuine intimacy in their entire lives because they stay locked in that victim persecutor dynamic and don't ever take enough responsibility to realize, oh, I'm creating my life the way it is. Oh, wow. That's a moment of power. That's a moment of genuine agency. And, you know, it's pretty rare too.

当伴侣陷入这种争夺受害者宝座的循环时，有什么方法可以介入并打破这种模式？

What's a way to step in and pattern interrupt that you a couple is in this rhythm. They have got this race to the victimhood pedestal. What is a way that someone could interject and and and pattern break that?

九十年代我的《企业灵修》出版后，我做过大量商业咨询。我曾为戴尔、摩托罗拉、贝尔实验室等企业提供服务。我总把这比作空降到敌营——董事会常会因某些问题陷入僵局，而我就是那个空降来破冰的人。

Well, I used to do a lot of business consulting back in the nineties after my book, The Corporate Mystic came out. And I used to go into companies like Dell and Motorola and Bell Labs and places like that. And I always call it parachuting into enemy territory because a lot of times a board would be stuck on a particular issue. And I would be the guy that was parachuting in to try to get the board unstuck about something. And it was interesting.

问题从来不是商业层面的，总是某些人困在情绪里：可能是积压的愤怒，或是未化解的恐惧。有次我服务一家知名企业，他们与洛杉矶某娱乐巨头有笔一亿美元的生意，却僵持到互不交谈的地步。

It was never a business problem. It was always some emotional issue that somebody was stuck on. They were replaying some old anger issue or they were playing some old fear issue or something, but they weren't dealing with the problem that was. And I remember, working with a company, a very famous company that had a $100,000,000 deal at stake with a big Los Angeles entertainment company. And they were stuck to the point where they weren't speaking to each other.

后来他们各自回酒店房间反省，意识到：原来我们有这么多未被正视的恐惧。经过简短辅导，其中一人站起来说：我想坦白我的恐惧——我怕与你们文化融合会丧失我们珍视的特质...因为你们似乎不重视这些。

And so they repaired to their respective hotel rooms and, you know, did some introspecting and realized, oh, wait a minute. We have a whole bunch of fears that haven't been addressed. And so through a little bit of coaching, one guy stood up and said, I just wanna tell you some of the things I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that mixing with your culture, we're gonna lose some of the precious aspects of my culture here because we value dot dot dot. And I don't see you guys value it.

当恐惧被摊开后，商业问题二十分钟就解决了。但之前就像车子陷在沟里三天，只需要一点真诚就能重回正轨。

So, But once the fears got out there, the business problem took about twenty minutes to solve. But it was three days of having the car stuck in the ditch, and then it just took a little bit of authenticity to put things back on the right track.

所以这就是激励人们在关系中主动释放善意、停止计较的方式？你们是否培养了一种文化，教导人们在每个层面都期待五五均分？

Yeah. So that's how you inspire people to sort of be more proactively benevolent in their relationship and stop keeping score? Do you have a culture that teaches people to expect the fifty fifty split at every level?

是啊。律师们曾告诉我，在我的执业经历中，他们在法学院学到：一个好的和解方案是让双方都不满意。前几天我特别高兴——不知道你有没有看公开赛。我是个高尔夫球迷，所以看了英国公开赛。

Yeah. Well, lawyers have told me that I've had in my practice that, you know, they've been told in law school, a good settlement is when both people go away unhappy. I was so pleased the other day. Saw a, I don't know if you watched the open. I'm a golfer, and so I watched the British open.

总之我从不缺席，每年都热切关注公开赛。今年我们德州的小伙子斯科蒂·舍夫勒夺冠了。但他在记者会上说了一句特别有价值的话。

Anyway, I never miss it. I avidly watch the open every year. And this year, one of our guys, Scottie Scheffler from, Texas, won it. But at the press conference, he said something so valuable.

这是

This is

我哭了。

I cried.

这是...我联系过斯科蒂想请他上节目，因为我关注高尔夫很久了。那次记者会上他说'我做这些有什么意义？让我告诉你：我穷尽一生就为换取几个满足的瞬间'。

It is one of the I I've reached out to Scotty to try and bring him on the show just because I've watched golf for a while. That one press conference thing, what's the point of me doing this? Why am I doing this? Let me tell you. I've worked my entire life for a few moments of satisfaction.

这太震撼了。看到顶尖选手夺冠后反而告诫他人远离这种追求，实在美妙绝伦。

I it it's phenomenal. It is it is so wonderful to see a high performer do the thing, win the thing, and then warn everybody else off of it.

完全同意。他不仅说'今天感觉很棒'，还表示'几天后我又会回到日常的不满状态'。天啊，我从没听过有人这样坦白。他还说'以高尔夫谋生很棒，但如果这影响我与妻儿的关系，那就是我职业生涯的最后一天'。

Totally. And, you know, to not only say, you know, I'm feeling this great feeling today, but he said, you know, in a couple of days, I'll be back to my normal state of dissatisfaction. And I thought, wow, I've never heard anybody say anything remotely like that. And then the other thing he said was, you know, it's great, you know, that I'm making a living playing golf, but the day it interferes with my relationship with my wife or my child is the last day I'll ever play golf for a living. Wow.

明白吗？正因他有这种态度，虽处生涯巅峰仍能持续多年。听到这样地位的人说这话，我实在感激。

You know? That's because he's at the peak of his career, and with that kind of attitude, he could go on for years and years and years. But I'm so I was so grateful to hear somebody at that stature say that.

最可贵的是——当世界冠军高尔夫球手的妻子肯定不容易。丈夫常年在外训练，说实话高尔夫可能是最不受女性关注的运动之一（泰格·伍兹除外，他超越了这项运动本身）。

What I think is really wonderful about it is as well, it must be difficult to be the wife of a, world champion golfer. He's away all the time. He's training all the time. So, I mean, actually, golf, probably one of the one of the pursuits that probably gets the least female attention, I guess. I mean, Tiger Tiger Woods aside, he kind of transcended the sport.

想想NBA球星或足球运动员巡演时总围着女粉丝，但高尔夫选手？他们算运动员里最性感的吗？可当你伴侣是备受瞩目的公众人物，总在巡演、住酒店...作为稍有知名度的人，我越来越思考：作为舞台焦点人物的另一半是什么感受？真正该做的是让默默支持你的人感到安心。

But you think about, like, NBA stars on the road or football players or whatever, you think, oh, there's gonna be a lot of female groupies around them. Like, golf, Really? Are they, like, the pinnacle of sort of sexiness when it comes to athletes? But still, you're in a relationship with a guy, lot of attention, lot of lot of options, always on the road, late nights in hotels, so on and so forth. And a lot of the time, especially as someone who has the tiny micro amount of of of public attention, I'm thinking more and more about what is it like to be in a relation to be on the other side of the relationship of the person that's the the a player, right, that that is the person that's out on stage because, well, it is incumbent on the person who has got all of the stuff going on, who has all of the attention to make the person who doesn't and is still there supporting them even more comfortable.

你知道，他完成了。他最后做了个动作，和球童击掌，然后环顾四周找他的伴侣在哪里？因为如果我先去和其他所有人庆祝，那这背后的潜台词是什么？潜台词就是所有事都优先，而你只是最后收拾残局的人。我最近和一个朋友聊天，他曾和一位非常非常著名的歌手约会过一段时间，她每次下台后，他永远是最后一个被问候的人。

You know, he finishes. He puts at the final thing, high fives his caddy, and looks around for where's my partner at? Because she's if I go and celebrate with everybody else first, what what's the subtext of that? The subtext is everything is a priority, and you are what pick you you pick up the slack at the end. I was having a conversation with a friend recently who had dated a a a really, really famous singer for a while, and she would get off stage, and he would be the last person.

在她刚经历了数万狂热粉丝的追捧，所有注意力都集中在她身上，她性感迷人、光彩照人之后。而她下台时，他却不得不压抑自尊——那个脆弱的男性自尊心想着'我在这里支持我的伴侣追求她的事业'。结果他却是最后一个被问候的人，毫不意外，这段关系没维持多久。而他自己也是个公众人物。

After she's just had, you know, like, tens of thousands of adoring fans and they they've all it's the attention's been on her, and she's sexy and done up and beguiling and charming and all the rest of this stuff. And then she'd get off stage, and he's had to swallow his pride. He's had to, like the fragile male ego of I am here supporting my partner doing her thing. And then he was the last person that was sort of greeted, and shock horror, that relationship didn't last. And he is also he's also public facing.

现在当他登台表演，成为众人瞩目的焦点，那个站在神坛上的天才时，他下场后第一个寻找的就是他的伴侣。他会跑过去给她一个深吻，让她成为焦点。让她感受到'他做了这一切，所有人都爱他，但我才是他的优先'。这种关系是围绕着我，而不是让我事后捡剩。

And now when he does his thing and he's out on stage and he's, you know, the the man, the pedestal, the, you know, the fucking savant that's up there, the first person he looks for when he comes off and finishes is his partner, and he runs over to her, gives her a big kiss. She's the fur. And she gets to be he did all of that, and everybody loves him but me. Like, I am his priority. That fits around me as opposed to me picking up the scraps afterward.

我觉得大家都该去看看这个。上周我在推特账号上转发了，斯科蒂的表现简直像个大佬，绝对的传奇人物。

And I think, yeah, that that's everyone should go and check it out. I retweeted it last week on my on my Twitter account. Scotty shout, like, what a boss. What an absolute legend.

高尔夫是我唯一还算擅长的运动。所以我特别关注喜欢的球员的言论，这段话真的让我很受触动。

Well, golf is the only sport that I'm remotely skilled at. So I I watch carefully utterances by my favorite golfers, and that was one that just really lit me up.

回到那个五五开的话题，我在想是否在这种竞争性关系中存在比较标准的问题。因为一个人洗碗，一个人倒垃圾，一个人工作，一个人持家。异性恋关系的本质就是我们永远在比较不同性质的事物。人们总想量化双方贡献的平等性，但这不可能，因为我们带来的东西本就不同。我认为这只会削弱关系的极性，最终必然导致失败。

Talking going back to that 5050 thing, I wonder whether there's an issue of trying to measure apples to apples in this competitive nature because one person does the dishes, one takes out the trash, one goes to work, one looks after the house. The nature of a heterosexual relationship is that we are always apples to oranges. Like, people are tracking what what each partner brings to the table based on an assumption of evenness, But that's impossible because we bring different things to the table. And I have to assume that that just flattens the polarity of the relationship, which just leads to inevitable failure.

是啊。约翰·格雷是我们的老朋友，他创造了那个'男人来自火星，女人来自金星'的理论。有次他告诉我这个想法的来源——他在印度看到村民准备晚餐时，注意到所有男人都蹲坐着默默抽烟，而女人们则边做饭边热烈交谈。

Yeah. Well, John Gray is an old friend of ours, and he made up that whole Mars is men are from Mars, women are from Venus things. And he was telling me one time about where he sort of got that idea. He was in India, and he was watching a group of people cook dinner for the village. And he noticed that all of the men were just sitting around, squatting, watching, smoking, not saying a word.

从进化角度看，人类大部分时间都是狩猎采集者。现代生活只是进化长河中的一瞬。狩猎时男性必须保持安静，交流简洁；而留在后方的人则不停交谈。

And the women were cooking. And they were animatedly talking with each other and that kind of thing. So, you know, if you go back in evolution, you're gonna find that for most of human evolution, we were hunter gatherers. For just a wink of an eye of modern life, we've become something different. But hunter gatherers, the male element, they're out having to be very quiet and very terse with their communications if they're on the hunt.

而在家的那些人，那些没有外出打猎的，则不停地说着聊着

Whereas back home, everybody that's left that's not out hunting is talking and chattering

还有照顾孩子和各种家务

and Causing making and all parenting and

相关。是的。大喊大叫。对孩子们喊让他们远离森林边缘之类的事情。所以对女性来说，这是一个更加丰富的交流环境。

relating. Yeah. Yelling Yeah. At kids to get away from the edge of the forest and all those kinds of things. So it's been a much richer communication environment for females.

我们也应该从进化角度记住，在现代时期，我指的是大约一万年前我们开始进入城市并生活在城市中的那段时期，我们几乎所有人都有奴隶背景。因为如果你看看希腊、罗马和中世纪欧洲等地的情况，90%的人实际上处于某种形式的虚拟奴役中。奴隶擅长的一件事就是拥有压迫者不知道的独立内心生活。这就是为什么当铁幕倒下、人们推倒柏林墙时，俄罗斯人感到惊讶，因为他们没有察觉到那90%本质上处于奴役状态的人群中正在酝酿的情绪。很多事情发生，就是因为没有人关注他人的感受。

And we should also remember evolutionarily too, during the modern era, and I'm talking ten thousand years or so since we started moving into cities and living in cities and that kind of thing, almost all of us come from a background of having been slaves. Because if you look at the who was actually in Greece and in Rome and in Middle Ages Europe and all that kind of thing, you know, 90% of the people were in virtual slavery of some kind. And so slaves, one thing they get good at is having a separate inner life that the other people, their oppressors don't know about. And that's the reason, you know, like, the Russian guy got kinda surprised when the iron curtain went down and people knocked over the Berlin Wall because they hadn't perceived what was building out there in the 90% of the people that were essentially slaves. And so all sorts of things happen because nobody's paying attention to what other people are feeling.

所以在当今社会，我想提倡的是每个人都拥有丰富的内心联系和内心生活，无条件地爱自己，并以此为基础无条件地爱他人，能够以这样一种方式与他们交流，以至于在发生任何戏剧性事件之前，已经进行了如此丰富的对话，连十秒钟的紧张交谈都不需要。

And so now in society, what I want to promote is everybody having a rich inner contact, a rich inner life where they're unconditionally loving of themselves and having that be the foundation for unconditionally loving other people and being able to communicate with them in such a way that ten second sweaty conversations aren't even necessary because you've had so many rich conversations before anything dramatic happens.

是的。与之相反，我的很多朋友都是第一次当爸爸。这不是从别人那里听来的二手故事，但我经常思考这种动态。你可以想象这样一种情况，男人是养家糊口的人。妈妈在母乳喂养新生儿，每晚醒来十次，但希望她的伴侣也和她一起醒来，这样感觉公平。

Yeah. I an inverse of that, a lot of my friends are, having kids for the first time, first time fathers. And this isn't a a a story that's secondhand from anyone, but I I've thought about this dynamic a lot. You could imagine a dynamic where, the man is the breadwinner. Mom is breastfeeding a newborn and wakes up 10 times per night, but wants her partner to wake up with her so that things feel even.

对吧？而且，甚至没有考虑到这个男人第二天还要去工作养家，会因为频繁醒来而筋疲力尽，尽管女人也会因为照顾孩子和其他事情而疲惫不堪。但这里需要一种理解，即个体化和独特能力有其存在的空间，联合和协作项目也有其存在的空间，并且能够明白：我要做这件事，我不会因为他们没有和我一起受苦而怨恨，因为我知道他们也在做其他事情，那些只有他们承担的成本，他们也是为了我。

Right? And, not even taking into consideration that the guy has got to be at work the next day to provide and will be exhausted from, like, all of the wake ups, even though the woman is also gonna be exhausted because she's got to care for the kids and all the rest of the stuff. But there is just yeah. I I suppose a understanding where individuation and unique capacities have a place at the table and where union and collaborative projects have a place at the table and being able to know, look. I'm gonna do this thing, and I'm not gonna resent the fact that they're not there suffering along with me because I know that there are other things that they do, which are costs that only they incur, that they're doing in service of me too.

我想我必须假设这就是信任和相信对方承诺的基础所在。因为一旦这种信任破裂，你所承担的每一项成本都会感觉没有得到回报，这就会开始引发竞争和计分行为。比如，我为你做了这个。我告诉你我为你做了这个，是因为我感觉你没有为我做事。通过向你展示我为你做了多少事，我想激励你也为我做事作为回报。

And I suppose I have to assume that this is where trust and faith that the other person is committed is, like, foundationally toxic to this. Because as soon as that breaks down, every cost that you incur doesn't feel like it's being reciprocated, and this then begins to get the competitiveness and the the point scoring. Well, I did this for you. The reason that I'm telling you that I did this for you is because I don't feel like you're doing things for me. And by me showing you how much stuff I'm doing for you, I'm gonna motivate you into doing things for me in return.

看起来这就像一个大难题，需要一刀两断。

Like that, it seems like a big Gordian knot that just needs cutting through.

是的。这就是为什么把竞争从关系中剔除如此重要。你知道，我们在第一次咨询时问人们的一个问题是，你们是一个团队吗？

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to get the competitive thing out of relationship. And, you know, one of the first questions we ask people in their first session is, are you on the team or not? You know?

这对你来说是一个团队吗？你和另一个人，你们是在一起的吗？你们承诺作为盟友而不是敌人在一起吗？因为让人们变成敌人并不需要太多。一旦他们开始陷入那种受害者的心态，信任和连接就会迅速瓦解。

Is this a team for you? You and the other person, are you in it together? Are you committed to being in it together as allies rather than enemies? Because it doesn't take much to make people enemies. And once they've started, you know, going into that whole victim thing, that's, you know, unravels the trust and connection in a relationship very quickly.

所以保持简单。经常回到这三件事：我是否与我的真实感受保持联系？我是否在说实话？我是否在承担充分而快乐的责任？

So keep it simple, though. Come back to those three things all the time. Am I in touch with my feelings, my authentic feelings? Am I telling the truth? And am I taking full joyful responsibility?

不是出于被迫才承担责任，而是我是否从根本上认识到：我主宰着自己的人生，可以随心塑造它。当两个人共同践行这一点时——就像我和凯蒂过去四十五年所做的那样——你们能创造无数奇迹，比如合著61本书、制作超过500档电视节目、环球飞行200万英里举办研讨会。如果我们整天互相抱怨攀比，这些成就一件都不可能实现。

Not responsibility because somebody's making me take responsibility. Do I see generally that, oh, I'm in charge of my life. I can make it up however I want. If you get two people that are doing that, Kitty and I have been doing for the last forty five years, you can do lots of miracles, like publish 61 books between us and beyond 500 television shows and travel around the world 2,000,000 miles teaching seminars. One of those things none of those things would have happened if we were constantly ragging on each other and competing with each other.

而且单凭你自己可能也做不到这些。

And you also probably couldn't have done it on your own.

我根本不愿独自完成，因为遇见凯蒂前，我的人生始终缺失一半。经历过无数次恋爱（包括一段长关系）后，我总陷入相同困境——就像突然意识到自己站在泰坦尼克号上却责怪冰山。这种归咎短期内或许有用，但在亲密关系中终要醒悟：我才是那座冰山，是反复遭遇困境的根源，是不断被批评或批评他人的那个。当我们完成这种内在转变，只需一次顿悟，就能打开将责任感与创造力视为同频的大门。

I wouldn't have wanted to do it on my own, you know, because before I met Katie, I was missing half of life because I'd been in umpteen different relationships, including one longer one, and just ran up against the same, you know, it's like realizing after a little while, you're on the Titanic and you're blaming the iceberg, you know, which is a useful thing to do if you can do something about it. But at some point in relationship, you have to realize, oh, I'm the iceberg. I'm the thing that keeps happening to me. I'm the thing that keeps happening and being getting criticized or criticizing all the time. So the moment we make that inner move, all it takes is once to try to really get the door open to seeing responsibility as on the same wavelength as creativity.

因为真正承担责任意味着宣告：在这宇宙中我与万物平等，我就是宇宙本身，是整体的一部分。一旦确立这种认知，创造力会如洪流般涌来——因为你不再阻碍宇宙本身的创造冲动。

Because if you are genuinely taking responsibility, you're saying, I'm an equal here in this universe as you. I'm an equal to everything in the universe. I am the universe. I am part of the whole. And once you establish that feeling, creativity comes to you just like so fast because you're not in the way of the creative impulses of the universe itself.

这个宇宙充满惊人创造力。最近读天文发现，宇宙某处每秒诞生32个恒星（SUNS），就像我们天空中那个耀眼太阳，但那里每秒涌现32个！而我们所属的星系，不过是八千亿星系中的一粒微尘。

And this universe is an incredibly creative place. I was reading about a place in astronomy out in the universe where there's 32 suns, s u n s, being born a second. They're spewing out out there somewhere 32 new suns, just like our big bright shiny one in the air, but 32 of them a second. You know? And we're part of 800,000,000,000 galaxies.

若你假装自己与众不同，就像给自己贴了张'踢我'标签。

And so if you're pretending you're different from all that, that you're special, well, you're asking the universe to you know, it's like putting a kick me sign on yourself.

很快就会被现实教做人。

Gotta be humbled fast.

没错。你必须先成为宇宙的成员，才能充分享受其馈赠。若总想证明自己与众不同，那处境可就尴尬了。

Yeah. You gotta be a member of the universe before you can take full advantage of it. If you're trying to prove that you're special and different and not like everybody else here, that's a awkward place to be.

再说，如果你生命中反复遭遇相似情境——比如恋爱关系——所有前任都是自恋狂，或所有前任都无法体面分手，或所有前任都嫉妒成性...当你说'所有'，注意那个共同点就是你自己。你是所有人生经历的恒定因子。

Also, if you are encountering similar situations regularly throughout your life we're talking about relationships. So all of my exes all of my exes are narcissists, or all of my exes, they're unable to to end a relationship in a a charming way, or all of my exes are terrifyingly jealous or whatever. And you go, all of them? All of them. All of them.

也许事实如此。但你所有经历的共同分母是什么？是你自己。当你发现'总被人说X或Y'的规律——比如常被指责过于敏感情绪化、不愿负责——线索就在其中。

Well, that's that might be true. What's the common denominator between all of your oh, you are. You are the common denominator between all of the experiences in your life. So when you see this thread that happened, I'm often told that I'm x or y. I'm often told that I'm too sensitive and emotional, and I can't take responsibility.

我常被人说冷漠，需要的是——好吧，也许该重视这一点，考虑可能问题不在别人身上。是的，就是你。即便不是你，尽可能承担责任也会比挥舞受害者旗帜、对天怒吼让你感觉更有力量。

I'm often told that I'm cold, and I need the it's like, well, maybe take some heed of that and consider that it might not the other people might not be the problem. Yeah. You. In fact, it probably is you. And even if it's not you, taking responsibility wherever you can is going to feel much more empowering than waving the victim flag and, like, raging at the sky.

你知道吗，你让我想起治疗生涯中最精辟的一句话。当时我在科罗拉多大学斯普林斯分校担任心理咨询系主任，同时需要私人执业。每周有一天接诊来访者。

You know, you just reminded me of the very best one liner any person has ever sent to me in a therapy situation was when I was a professor at the University of Colorado, I worked at the branch in Colorado Springs. I was the head of the counseling department there. And we also were expected to have a private practice. So you weren't just preaching stuff, you were practicing what you preach. So one day a week, I spent seeing clients.

有位三十多岁的男士来访，他说从17岁起经历过数段感情，大多维持几个月，但也有几段

And a fellow came in that was in his thirties. And he said that since the time he was 17 years old, he had been in a number of relationships, mostly a matter of months, but a couple of

持续了几年

them that had been in

但结局总是相似——女方背叛、离开或搬离城镇，看起来永远是对方的错。然后他说了那句经典台词，用非常天真的语气问：‘亨德里克斯医生，我开始怀疑是不是和我有关。您觉得呢？’

a matter of years, but they always ended the same way where the woman betrayed him or left or moved out of town or something that always looked like it was the other person's fault. And here's his one liner. He said in this very innocent voice, he said, Doctor. Hendrix, I'm beginning to wonder if it has something to do with me. You think?

我甚至不需要十分钟就发现了这个他从未思考过的问题——这本身就很惊人。作为四兄弟中的老幺，他母亲生下他后就跟着别人离开了。他在父亲日复一日‘要是你妈还在’的怨怼中长大，

Yeah. And it didn't take me ten minutes of being a therapy wizard to find out something that he had never thought about, which is amazing in itself. He had never connected up the fact that he was one of four boys, and he was the baby of four boys. And after his mother had him, she decided she'd had enough and disappeared with another man and just didn't come back. And so he grew up in this milieu where his father was ranting on a pretty much daily basis.

始终扮演受害者角色。这种模式根深蒂固到他35岁才恍然：‘原来我一岁时经历的背叛，正在被我不停重演’。

If your mother were only here, you know, blah blah blah. And, you know, just couldn't adapt very well and was playing the victim card throughout my clients. And it was so deeply ingrained that he'd never made the connection. He didn't until he was 35 or so years old say, oh, that horrible betrayal when I was a year old, I'm replaying the pattern. Wow.

我很幸运见证过数千次这样的顿悟时刻，但每次依然感动。当人从‘生活施加于我’转变为‘生活经由我展开’，就意味着能主动创造新关系、新梦想——这在受害者心态下是不可能实现的。

So, you know, I've been blessed in a way I've been able to sit with people thousands of times now where they had that realization, but I never get tired of it. It's always the most beautiful thing to see because when a person gets out of life happening to them and gets into, oh, life is happening through me. That means I can do something about it. I can create a new dream or I can create a new relationship. You can't do that when you're operating from the victim position.

说得太好了。我有个挚友正在写关于自主性的书，他把这个理念概括为‘我造就生活，而非生活造就我’。

So good. I have one of my best friends is currently writing a book about agency, and, he summarizes agency as I happen to life, not life happens to me.

正是如此。

Yes.

而我认为，更高层次、升华、精神开悟的版本是生命通过我发生。对吧？这是更偏向心灵开放的视角。但我觉得基础层面是，嘿，是我在经历生活。

And, the I suppose the elevated, ascended, spiritually enlightened version is life happens through me. Right? That's a a sort of a more heart opening side of things. But I think the ground floor is like, hey. I happen to life.

比如，我能影响自己的未来。天啊。比如，我可以离开那段我不喜欢的感情，或者退出那个不再让我兴奋的职业。我可以和惹恼我的家人划清界限，或者减掉50磅体重，改变我的习惯。根本上说，你并非任由发生在你身上的事情摆布，你的感情关系也是如此。

Like, I can impact my future. Holy shit. Like, I can leave that relationship I don't like, or I can move out of that career that isn't enthusing me anymore. I can set a boundary with my family that's pissing me off, or I can lose 50 pounds, or I can change my habits. Like, fundamentally, you are not at the mercy of the things that are happening to you, and the same thing goes for your relationship.

我有这个理论已经有一阵子了。我很想知道你对此的看法。网络上很多关于感情的说教，人们试图解决的很多问题，本质上都是将不匹配理性化、逆向合理化。我有个朋友大肆宣扬伴侣应该挑战你。他结婚几十年的妻子就非常难相处。

And I think I've had this theory for a little while. I'd be interested to know what your opinion of this is. A lot of a lot of relationship proselytizing that happens on the Internet a lot of the issues that people are trying to navigate are fundamentally incompatibility being intellectualized, reverse engineered. I have a friend who has made a a big deal out of the fact that your partner should challenge you. His wife of many decades is super disagreeable.

这就像，显然。显然，你爱上的那个人就是你从中得出的哲学，否则你们早就分手了。这适用于所有层面。很多时候是，你需要在感情中做到这样，或者你必须能和伴侣处理好那样。我感觉，找到一个能弥补我们缺点、帮我们克服缺点的伴侣，比修复这些缺点要容易得多。

It's like, well, obviously. Obviously, you the person that you fell in love with is the philosophy that you then bore out of that, because if not, you would have broken up. And the same thing goes for, like, all all the way down. Much of it is, well, you need to be able to do this within your or you must be able to navigate this with your partner. It's like, I I get the sense that it is far easier to find a partner who compensates for our shortcomings and actually helps us get past them than it is to fix them.

比如，你喜欢每周出去玩三个晚上，而你的伴侣对此有意见。这是因为你选择了一个不喜欢每周出去玩三个晚上的伴侣。这就是个不匹配的问题，你现在却觉得，这是我的抗拒，我必须克服关于嫉妒或其他什么的抗拒。或者，我的伴侣和很多人调情，我需要教育他们这是不对的。

Like, you're like like, I I like to, party three nights a week, and my partner has a problem with that. It's like because you chose a partner who doesn't like to party three nights a week. It's just an incompatibility problem that you're now oh, well, it's my resistance. I must get over my resistance around jealousy or whatever it is. Like, my partner flirts with lots of people, and I need to teach them that it's wrong.

这就像你选择了一个爱调情的伴侣。你选择了一个和谁都能调情的伴侣，而你是那种对此感到不舒服的人。世界上有男人或女人会完全接受这一点，甚至可能很喜欢，因为他们知道伴侣最终会回到自己身边。也有其他适合你的伴侣，不会和任何人调情，会喜欢你专注、细心、在乎的样子。很多时候是把不匹配逆向合理化，然后从中形成某种哲学。另一方面，人们因为有自己的特性和偏好，他们的择偶哲学恰恰是他们选择的结果，源于他们承诺的东西。如果他们觉得伴侣应该非常随和。

It's like you chose a flirty partner. You chose a partner that flirts with everybody, and you're the sort of person that feels uncomfortable with There is a a man or a woman out there who would be absolutely fine with it and maybe even would actually quite like it because they know that they get the partner when they come home. And there is another partner out there for you who wouldn't flirt with anybody and would love the fact that you're really dedicated and that you pay attention and that you care about the fact it's like a lot of it is reverse engineering incompatibility and then forming some kind of philosophy out of it. And then on the other side, people because they have their own idiosyncrasies and preferences, their mating philosophy is precisely the thing that they chose because it's born out of the thing that they committed to. If they were like, your partner should be really easygoing.

而你娶了一个非常难相处的女人四十年。给我解释一下这怎么说得通。这说不通，因为这不一致，会造成很多混乱。所以，是的，我认为不匹配的问题，这些哲学的形成，很多时候是人们选错了伴侣。

You go, you married a woman that was super disagreeable for forty years. Square that circle for me. It wouldn't because it would be in discordance, it would cause a ton of a ton of havoc. So, yeah, I, that incompatibility thing, the way the philosophies are born out, a lot of it is people just navigating wrong partner choice as far as I can see.

我同意。就像我之前提到的，我有过一段非常艰难的感情，我无意识地选择了一个极其挑剔的人，然后我整天抱怨她挑剔。所以我觉得我们都应该记住伟大的婚姻顾问西尔维斯特·史泰龙在《洛奇》中的一句话，他谈到女友时说：我有缺点，她有缺点。

I agree. Because like I mentioned earlier, I had one of those really difficult relationships where I chose somebody unconsciously who was incredibly critical, and then I complained all the time about her being critical. And so I think we should all remember a quotation from that great marriage counselor Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, where he says about his girlfriend. He says, I got gaps. She got gaps.

我们互补。所以找一个人不一定要和你完全一样，而是有你需要学习的东西。比如，记得在我和我妻子关系初期，大概第一年的时候，她有一次说她觉得累。我立刻进入解决问题模式，说，哦，那我们一起来冥想十五分钟吧，或者类似的话。我试了两三种方法。

We fill gaps. And so look for somebody not necessarily that's just like you, but has things that you need to learn. You know, like, remember when my wife corrected my mister fix it program way back in the early stages of our relationship, maybe in the first year of our relationship, she said something about she felt tired. And I went into fix it mode and I said, oh, well, why don't you try let's meditate for fifteen minutes together or something like that. And I tried I tried two or three things.

最后她说，等一下。当我告诉你我害怕或累了之类的事，我不是要你解决它。我只是想让你知道我现在的状态。我记得我当时完全懵了。我不应该去解决它？

And finally she said, wait a minute. When I tell you something like I'm scared or I'm tired, I'm not looking for you to fix it. I'm just looking to tell you for the sake of letting you know what's going on in me. And I remember being just dumbfounded at that. I'm not supposed to fix it.

不，这对我来说是个新发现。我在一个有人沉迷于物质的家庭中长大，有时甚至需要我来承担照顾他们的责任，而不是他们来照顾我。所以我习惯了扮演‘解决问题先生’的角色，但在这个关系中，‘解决问题先生’根本行不通。于是我不得不转向‘共鸣先生’模式，而非‘解决问题先生’模式。

No. That was news to me. I grew up in a family with some people who were addicted to substances in it, where I was sometimes called upon to take responsibility for parenting them rather than them parenting me. And so I was, you know, used to operating out of mister fix it mode, and mister fix it just didn't work in this relationship. And so I had to go for mister resonance mode rather than mister fix it mode.

嗯，网上流传着一个非常著名的梗，讲的是一个女朋友给男朋友发短信。她说：‘我的墨西哥卷饼掉地上了，我崩溃了。’而他对这种情况的回应是：‘你现在是需要解决问题模式，还是只想先聊聊这件事？’这太真实了。

Well, there's a a really famous meme that's floating around, and, it's a a girlfriend texting her boyfriend. And she says, I dropped my burrito on the floor. I'm devastated. And, his response to to your situation is, are you are you in the, problem solving mode, or do you just want to talk about it for a while? It's so true.

这这这太真实了。我觉得，对于女性来说，男性喜欢解决问题。对我们来说，后叶加压素简直是种强力药物。我之前在推特上看到另一个很棒的视频，一个Z世代的年轻女性对着镜头说：‘我终于搞懂男人了，我终于搞懂男人了。’

It's it's it's so true. And I think, you know, for the women out there, guys like to fix things. Vasopressin for us is a fucking hell of a drug. Like, I I saw a well, another great video from a while ago on on Twitter said, it's a woman sort of a Gen Z type woman talking to the camera, and she says, I've just figured men out. I've just figured men out.

男人热爱任务。他们渴望任务。他们总是在寻找任务。他们就想去做点什么，解决某个问题，然后凯旋归来成为英雄，他们就是想要任务。

Men love quests. They want quests. They're always looking for quests. They just want something. They wanna go and fix this thing and come back and them to be the hero, and they just want quests.

他们在卧室里也想要任务，想要得到表扬和‘好孩子’的称赞，比如‘你做得真棒’之类的。所以他们就只是想要任务。这就是为什么跨性别心灵感应会失败——我用自己希望被对待的方式与你沟通。这需要双方都保持一点谦逊和理解。要知道，这些都是通过艰难经历学到的，我认为这也是为什么恋爱关系是训练场。通常，你的第一段感情很可能不会长久，因为太多教训需要通过不适来学习，然后随时间累积。

They want quests in the bedroom, and they wanna get a pat on the back and a good boy, and didn't you do well, and so on and so like, they just want quests. And that's why the failure of cross sex mind reading is I am communicating to you in the way that I would want to be communicated to. And it just takes a a little bit of humility and and understanding on both sides. And, you know, this is these are things that are hard learned, and I think it's one of the reasons that relationships are training grounds. And often, the first relationship you get into is probably not gonna be the one that you stay in because so many of these lessons are learned through discomfort, and then they accumulate over time.

你会积累一大堆犯过的错误，负担变得太重。这段关系就像在重压下崩塌。然后你想：‘好吧，下次重来，但我会把上次的教训都带到这次来。’接着你又开始了。哦，这不是很好吗？我不用告诉她怎么去买个新卷饼。

You you have this cumulative load of errors that have been made, and it gets too great. And the relationship catchy like, collapses under the weight of it. And then, oh, well, I run it back next time, but I take all of the learnings from the last one into this one, and then I go again. And, oh, isn't that great? We didn't have to I didn't tell her, like, how to go and buy a new burrito.

我说：‘亲爱的，你的卷饼掉地上了，我太难过了。’对吧？Gay，你太棒了，我觉得你的工作很出色。我们就此打住吧。我还能聊一整天，但我们可以再录一期节目。告诉大家他们该去哪里跟进你在这期间的所有动态。

I said, I'm so sorry that your burrito fell on the floor, honey. Isn't that so, yeah, Gay, you are fantastic, and, I think your work is wonderful. Let's let's bring it into land there. I've got enough to talk about for the the rest of the day, but we can just do we can just do another episode. So tell people where they should go to keep up to date with all the stuff you're doing in the interim.

好的，我们无处不在。我有个团队专门负责Facebook这类平台。我自己管理Instagram个人账号@hendrix.gay，因为我挺喜欢在上面分享家庭生活和日常点滴。

Well, good. Well, we're everywhere. I have a whole team that does Facebook and all those kind of things. I do my own Instagram, my own personal hendrix.gay at Hendrix. Gay Instagram, because I kind of get a kick out of that and posting family stuff on there and stuff I do and that kind of thing.

你几乎在任何地方都能找到我们。Hendrix.com是我们所有活动的门户网站。我们新推出了一个‘教练门户’，你可以找到所有关于如何服务客户的专业解答。我们的书也随处可见，所以很难错过我们。

So you can find us just about everywhere. Hendrix.com is the jumping off place for everything we do. We have a new thing called the coaches portal that you can find, which is a way to get all your answer, professional answers for what you do with your clients and that kind of thing. So, and our books are everywhere. So we're pretty hard to miss out there.

我突然想起件事要告诉你，可能你在Instagram上看过。这周我看到并到处转发了一幅超棒的漫画：老式画风里两个女人坐在房间里举行降神会，其中一个正在用塔罗牌给另一个占卜。占卜师对她说：‘你的牌显示，你是自己很多问题的根源。’

I just thought something that I gotta tell you. Maybe you saw this on Instagram. There's the greatest cartoon I saw this week that I circulated all over the place. There's a old fashioned cartoon of two women sitting in a room kind of in a seance, and one of them is reading tarot cards for the other one. And the tarot card reader is saying to the other woman, you know, your cards indicate that you're the cause of a lot of your own problems.

另一个女人说，贱人，重新洗牌。

And the other woman says, bitch, reshuffle those cards.

完美。盖伊，我迫不及待想再和你聊聊，伙计。我真的很高兴发现了你的作品，而且我真的认为你正在推动每个人的世界向更好的方向发展。所以我非常感激你。

Perfect. Gay, I I can't wait to speak to you again, mate. I'm so glad that I found your work, and, I I really think that you're you're moving everybody's world in a better direction. So I appreciate you very much.

嗯，非常感谢。你显然处于你的天才领域，祝福你。

Well, thank you very much. You're clearly in your genius zone, and blessings to you.