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我在美国录的第一期播客就是和你一起录的，对。
The first ever podcast episode that I recorded in America was with you Yeah.
2019年，对。
In 2019 Yeah.
在哈佛医学院你的办公室里，白板上画着一个像蜗牛的图。
Harvard Medical School in your office with what looked like the illustration of a snail on the whiteboard.
当时是用两部iPhone拍的，其中一部还是我从朋友那儿借的，还有一个白色的USB麦克风，那已经是七年前的事了。
And it was filmed on two iPhones, one of which I'd had to borrow from a friend, and a single white USB microphone, and that was over seven years ago.
对。
Yeah.
我记得。
I remember.
现在我们又在这儿了。
Here we are.
记得很清楚。
Remember it well.
你12岁的时候。
When you were 12.
对吧？
Right?
我12岁。
I was 12.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Correct.
是的。
Yeah.
从那时候起就很明显，你将来一定会大有作为。
It was very clear in from those days that you were gonna be a big success.
你聪明、有干劲、准备充分，而且你看。
You're smart, driven, came prepared, and look.
现在这真是太美了。
This is beautiful now.
兜兜转转又回到了原点。
Full circle.
对。
Yeah.
我之前没意识到，星巴克的大杯咖啡因含量比英国同规格的高多了，喝得我整个人都飘了。
I had I didn't realize, Starbucks Venti has way more caffeine in than the British equivalent, and it took my fucking face off.
我坐在你对面，脑子里还在想山中因子，还有酸奶里NAD和白藜芦醇有多重要。
I was sat opposite you trying to think about Yamanaka factors and how important NAD and resveratrol in in yogurt is.
与此同时，我全身都在发抖。
Meanwhile, my whole body was vibrating.
不过，你知道吗，在让逆转衰老的生物学成为主流话题这件事上，你做的可能比任何人都多。
But, you know, you've done maybe more than almost anyone to make the biology of reversing aging a part of mainstream conversation.
所以我想聊聊自从我们第一次坐下来之后发生的一切，山中因子，NAD和白藜芦醇的最新进展，还有新发现。
So I wanna talk about kind of everything that's happened since we first sat down, the Yamanaka factors, what's happening with NAD and resveratrol, news discoveries.
不过，在我们深入这个话题之前，自2019年以来，有哪些发现最让你兴奋？
Like, before we get into that, though, what discoveries have excited you most since 2019?
天哪，太多了。
Gee, a lot.
我很幸运有一个实验室，里面有将近40个人在忙着做各种发现。
I'm very lucky to have a lab where there's up to 40 people running around making discoveries.
我回去那里充电。
I go back there to recharge.
就像威利·旺卡的巧克力工厂一样。
It's like the Willy Wonka.
你去过那里，所以你知道那是什么感觉。
You've been there, so you know what it's like.
那是无与伦比的。
It's unparalleled.
我希望每个人都能来参观。
I wish everyone could come visit.
最亮眼的成果是2020年，我们在《自然》杂志封面上发表了论文，首次证明可以在动物身上安全地逆转衰老，那是一只老鼠。
The highlights would be so in 2020, we published on the cover of Nature magazine that we could reverse aging safely in an animal for the first time, a mouse.
我们能做到，就是失明。
We could, it's blindness.
那真是挺了不起的。
That was pretty big.
登上《自然》封面，这是大多数科学家一生的梦想。
Cover of nature, it's what most scientists dream of in their lifetime.
所以那是一个很大的高光时刻。
So that was a pretty big high.
从那以后，看到这个成果不仅被其他实验室重复验证，还在不同的动物，比如猴子身上得到验证，这让我感到非常欣慰。
Since then, it's been rewarding to see that it's been repeated not just by other labs, but in different animals, monkeys.
它已经在不同的组织中都起作用了，所以不再只是我们最初测试的眼睛了。
It's been working in different tissues, so it's not just the eye anymore where we first tested it.
它几乎在动物身体的每个部位都有效。
It's pretty much working in in every part of the animal's body.
然后最重要的事情是，我们现在已经进入了人体试验阶段。
And then the big thing is we've now gone into people.
所以现在有一些人正在接受治疗，希望能逆转眼睛的衰老，从而治愈失明，或者至少改善视力。
So there are people getting their hopefully, age reversed in their eye to cure their blindness or at least improve their vision at the very least.
为什么从眼睛开始？
Why start in the eye?
对。
Yeah.
问得好。
Good question.
这是一种基因疗法。
This is a gene therapy.
我们引入了一些非常强大的基因。
So we're introducing genes that are very powerful.
这些基因叫做山中因子。
They're called Yamanaka factors.
你之前提到过它们。
You mentioned them.
但我们用的是其中一部分，不会引起任何问题。
But we use a subset of them that don't cause any trouble.
如果直接用山中教授用的那套，效果可不太好。
If you just use what professor Yamanaka used, it's not gonna be very healthy.
实际上相当危险。
It's actually quite dangerous.
所以我们用其中一部分，通过一种类似病毒的小颗粒来传递。
So we use a subset of those and we deliver them with a little virus like particle.
把这种病毒样颗粒安全地送入人体，最稳妥的方式是进入一个封闭的空间，不会扩散，而眼睛是测试最多的地方。
And the safest way to deliver a virus like particle into a human is to go into a space that's enclosed, it's not gonna spread, and the eye is where it's most been tested.
我们这么做是出于安全考虑，不是因为它在眼睛里效果更好。
And so we did it for safety reasons, not because it would work better in the eye.
实际上，我当时还跟我的学生王成说，他想治失明简直是疯了。
In fact, I told my student at the time, Wong Cheng, that he was crazy to try to cure blindness.
为什么不做点简单的，比如肝脏？
Why not do something easy like the liver?
但他说，你知道，眼睛可能是最安全的起点，他说得对。
But he said, you know, the eye is is probably the best place to start for safety reasons, and he was right.
我记得那件事。
I remember that, though.
那是2019年我在你实验室的时候我们讨论过的。
That was we were talking about that in 2019 when I was in your lab.
最近上个月发布了一个新东西。
What has there's been this recent release that came out last month.
那是什么？
What's that?
为什么它这么特别？
Why is that so special?
你是说我们已经进入人体试验的那个？
The one about that we've gone into humans?
对。
Mhmm.
嗯，我觉得大多数人以为抗衰老领域还差得远呢。
Well, I think most people thought the aging field was a lot lot further behind.
你在网上看到逆转衰老，哦，我们在人类细胞里做到了。
Age reversal, you see online, oh, we've done this in human cells.
我们在老鼠身上也做到了。
We've done it in a mouse.
但突然之间，现在有人可能拿到世界上第一款真正的逆转衰老药物。
But suddenly, there are people now getting what could be the world's first true age reversal drug.
所以对我们来说，这已经是旧闻了。
So for us, was old news.
我们一直在做这个，也早就预料到了。
We'd been doing this and expecting it for a while.
其实，我们早在2016、2017年就发现了这个。
In fact, we made the discovery back in twenty sixteen, seventeen.
所以对我们来说，这并不算太惊人。
So for us, it wasn't so amazing.
但对世界来说，我想听到人们真的第一次拿到这种可能逆转衰老的药物，确实是个震撼。
But for the world, I think it was a shock to hear that people are actually getting this potentially age reversal drug for the first time.
那眼睛方面，什么样的问题可以被逆转呢？
What would be the issue that somebody has in their eye which would be reversed?
这种治疗能解决哪类患者的问题？
What's the sort of patient that this would fix?
让我特别兴奋的是，在动物身上测试过的每一种损伤和疾病，不只是老鼠，还有更大的动物，都能改善视力，无论是疾病还是损伤。
So this is the thing that makes me super excited is that every piece of or type of damage and disease that's been tested in animals, not just mice, but larger animals, it's worked to improve the vision of either a disease or damage.
比如，如果你夹住神经，用激光照射，或者让老鼠患上青光眼，也就是眼压升高，我们都能有效治疗。
So for instance, if you pinch the nerve, you laser it, or you give a mouse glaucoma, pressure in the eye, we can treat that effectively.
目前除了这种治疗，即使在动物身上，也没有任何方法能逆转失明。
And nothing reverses blindness currently except for this treatment in animals even.
这就是让人兴奋的地方。
And so that's what's exciting.
甚至黄斑变性和青光眼，这两种全球导致失明的主要原因，都能被这种新机制非常非常容易地治疗。
Even macular degeneration, glaucoma, the two leading causes of blindness in the world, both of them are really, really easily treated by this new mechanism.
我们把这个药叫做ER100，意思是表观遗传逆转一百。
We call the drug ER100, which is epigenetic reversal one hundred.
不过，是的，几乎任何疾病或损伤理论上都可以通过这项技术来修复或治疗。
But, yeah, pretty much any disease or injury could theoretically be fixed, treated by this technology.
理论上，任何疾病或损伤都能被这个治疗？
Any theoretically, any disease or injury could be treated by this?
嗯，在眼睛方面是这样。
Well, in the eye.
但甚至更广，肝脏、运动神经元，比如肌萎缩侧索硬化，大脑衰老也能逆转，记忆力恢复，甚至关节。
But even beyond that, the liver, motor neurons, so ALS, the brain has been reversed in aging, memory comes back, even joints.
最近有一项中国的研究，看起来效果很好。
There was a Chinese study that came out recently, looked very good.
他们用我们的技术来重建骨关节炎中的骨骼和软骨。
They used our technology to rebuild bone and cartilage in osteoarthritis.
所以我不知道还有什么别的东西能像这样重建身体部位。
And so I don't know anything else that just rebuilds body parts like this.
你能跟一个外行解释一下这是怎么运作的吗？
Can you explain how it works to a simpleton?
不是说你是外行，但我觉得听的人都不是外行。
Not you, but don't think anybody listening is a simpleton.
不过好消息是，这其实挺简单的。
But it it's actually quite simple, the good news.
我们提取了三个通常在生命早期开启的基因，这三个基因产生的因子会触发一连串的事件，让细胞自我重启。
We take three genes that are normally turned on early in life, and these three genes make factors that turn on a cascade of of events that the cell uses to reboot itself.
简单来说，我假设身体有一套软件，随着年龄增长会逐渐损坏。
The simple way to think of it is that I hypothesize that the body has software that gets corrupted as we get older.
所以老年人身体里其实还有信息，只是软件被破坏了。
So an old person still has information there, it's just that it's been corrupted, the software.
我们把这套软件叫做表观基因组。
We call that the epigenome.
这和基因组是分开的，基因组就是DNA。
It's separate from the genome, which is the DNA.
表观基因组位于DNA之上，控制着DNA。
The epigenome sits on top of that and controls the DNA.
所以在我那本《寿命》书里，虽然现在有点过时了，但你可能还记得我用CD来打比方。
So in my book Lifespan, it's a little dated now, but you might remember I chose a CD as the analogy.
表观基因组就像播放音乐的读取器，DNA就是音乐本身，而衰老就像一张有划痕的CD。
The epigenome is the reader of the music and the DNA is the music itself, and aging is a scratch CD.
对于那些不太了解CD的听众和观众，CD是一种很酷的东西，能放20首歌。
So for those listeners and viewers who don't really know what a CD is, there are really cool things we could put 20 songs on.
但现在更好的比喻是，你的手机有软件。
But a better analogy now would be your phone has software.
一部很老的手机运行很慢。
A really old phone is slow.
它可能会被损坏，可能被过度使用，所以我们可以重启它。
It can be corrupted, can get overused, and so we can reboot that.
我们发现，我们放入的这三个基因，简称OSK，也就是山中因子，会触发胚胎用来重置年龄的程序，或者是非常相似的程序。
And we found that these three genes that we put in, which we call OS and K for short, these Yamanaka genes, trigger a program that embryos normally use to reset their age or something very similar to that program.
你可能不知道，大多数人都不知道，当我们受精时——我们都经历过受精，否则我们不会存在——我们需要重置这个表观基因组。
Something you might not know, most people don't know this, is that when we're fertilized, and we've all been fertilized, we wouldn't exist, and then we need to reset this epigenome.
软件需要重置，才能回到年轻状态。
The software needs a reset to go back to being young again.
不会吧。
No way.
这是事实。
It's a fact.
很惊人，但确实如此。
It's shocking, but true.
非常早期的胚胎是老的，然后它们会被重置。
Very young embryos are old, and then they get reset.
所以这个软件，其实它不是软件。
So the software is really it's not software.
这其实是DNA在细胞里的折叠方式，每个细胞都得把DNA压缩起来，因为DNA有六英尺长，却要装进一个微小的球里。
It's the way the DNA is folded in the cell, and every cell has to compact the DNA because it's six feet long, has to fit into a microscopic little ball.
而压缩的方式取决于你最终要变成什么类型的细胞。
And how that's compacted depends on what kind of cell you're gonna get.
所以如果你想制造神经细胞，你就会压缩不同的基因，一旦压缩了，它们就关闭了。
So if you wanna make a nerve cell, you compact different genes, And when you compact them, they switch off.
但你需要读取那些制造神经细胞的基因，所以你得把它们打开。
But you need to read nerves that make nerve cells, so you open those up.
这种DNA的打包和解开，就是表观基因组在做的事情。
And this this bundling and opening of DNA is what the epigenome does.
我的理论，叫做衰老的信息理论，说的是这种打包、解开、再打包、再解开的模式，每种细胞类型都不一样，在衰老过程中会被破坏、被侵蚀，而这实际上就是衰老。
And my theory called the information theory of aging said that this pattern of bundle loop bundle loop, which is different for every cell type, gets corrupted, gets eroded during aging, and that literally is aging.
对。
Mhmm.
我们在2023年测试了这个理论并发表了论文，我们创造了一只小鼠，可以破坏那些环和束。
And we tested this and published it in 2023, and we created a mouse where we could disrupt those loops and bundles.
然后老鼠的细胞就失去了功能。
And the mouse's cells lost their function.
它们失去了自己的身份。
They lost their identity.
神经细胞忘了怎么当神经细胞，老鼠真的就变老了。
The nerve cells forgot how to be nerve cells, and the mouse literally got old.
我们可以通过破坏那个软件，也就是表观遗传软件，来加速这个过程。
We could speed up that process by corrupting that software, the epigenetic software.
我们花了十三年时间做到这一步，然后我们开始研究逆转这个过程，这就是我们走到今天的原因。
And then when we did that, which took us thirteen years, we started working on reversing that process, which is how we get to here.
对。
Yeah.
人们把衰老看作必然，但你称之为疾病。
People see aging as a certainty, but you call it a disease.
它真的是疾病，还是只是一个有用的比喻？
Is it truly a disease, or is that just a useful metaphor?
其实，这只是一个词而已。
Well, it's just a word, really.
所以我们可以随便怎么称呼衰老，但我更愿意把它看作一种疾病，因为如果不这样，我们就不会真正去治疗它。
So we can call aging whatever we want, but I prefer to think of aging as a disease because otherwise, we're not really treating it.
大多数医生不认为老年是可以预防或治疗的，尽管现在我们相信我们明白它是非常可治疗的，至少是可以减缓的。
Most doctors don't think of old age as something that is preventable or treatable, even though now we believe we understand that it is very treatable or at least slowable.
所以我认为把衰老看作是我们应该从生命早期就开始关注并至少尝试减缓的事情，是一种有用的方式。
So I think it's a useful way to look at aging as something that we should address even starting early in life to try to slow it down at least.
我们都需要活得更久，因为即将到来的技术是不可思议的。
We all need to stick around for longer because the technology that's coming is incredible.
我在我的书里提出了这个观点，甚至把它印在了封底上。
And I proposed this in my book and even put it on the back cover.
很多人告诉我这太疯狂了。
It was a lot of people were telling me that that's crazy.
别这么说，大卫。
Don't say that, David.
这会很轰动的。
It's gonna be scandalous.
人们会不再把你当科学家认真看待。
People are gonna not take you seriously as a scientist.
但幸好我的合著者马特·拉普兰特说服了我，我们该大胆去做。
But I'm glad Matt, my co author, Matt Laplante, convinced me we should go for it.
其实，除了写作，他的主要作用就是跟我说：大卫，放手去做吧，别担心同事会怎么说，因为有些人可能会相当刻薄。
Actually, that was his main role besides writing was to say, David, just do it because don't worry what your colleagues will say because some of them can be pretty brutal.
所以我们把它写进去了，而且似乎被很多人接受了，现在你经常能听到这种说法。
So we put it in there, and it's seemingly been embraced by a lot of people, and now you hear it quite often.
接下来会有什么样的技术呢？
What's the technology that's coming?
如果这就是我们目前做到的，那未来几年又会有什么样的发展？
If that's what we've done so far, what do the next few years have in store for us?
嗯，这里有个分岔路口。
Well, there's a fork in the road.
我不知道具体什么时候会来，但这和AI或AGI的奇点类似。
I don't know when it's coming, but it's similar to the singularity with AI or AGI.
当我们证明衰老在人类身上是可逆的——这只是时间问题，不是会不会的问题——因为它在其他所有动物身上都有效。
When we show, and it's a matter of when, not if, that aging is reversible in humans because it works in all these other animals.
那在我们身上也会有效。
It'll work in us.
我们基本上就是稍微聪明一点的猴子，而它在猴子身上效果很好。
We're basically just slightly more intelligent monkeys, and it works fine in the monkeys.
我相信那将是人类的转折点。
That's gonna be a turning point, I believe, for humanity.
会有很多人说，好吧，现在让我们加入吧。
There'll be a lot of people who say, all right, now let's get on board.
让我们投资。
Let's invest.
让我们把它做大做强。
Let's blow this out of the water.
现在已经有很多几十亿美元投进去了，但一旦实现，它会像AI一样火爆。
There's already a lot of billions of dollars put into this, but it's gonna be big like AI when that happens.
但这些技术，比如说在眼睛上起作用了，我们现在能治疗甚至治愈大多数失明，那我们就已经在做了。
But these technologies, let's say it works in the eye and now we can treat, perhaps cure most types of blindness, then we're gonna we're already doing this.
我不能说太多，但我们已经在研究其他组织，比如肝脏，也许还有关节和听力，这些我们也能修复。
I can't talk about too much, but we're already looking at other tissues, the liver, for example, and maybe there's joints and hearing that we can also repair.
最终，这显然是要实现全身重置。
Ultimately, where this is going, obviously, is whole body reset.
现在在我的实验室里，我们很容易就能在小鼠身上做到这一点，其他人也做到了。
And we can do this in mice easily in my lab now, and others have done this.
是单个生物体内的每个细胞吗？
Every cell in a single organism?
嗯，我们还没有用病毒和基因来重置每个细胞的技术，这是把基因送到每个细胞的限制。
Well, we don't have the technology with the viruses and the genes to reset every cell, and that's a limitation of getting the genes into every cell.
你做不到。
You can't do that.
我们最多也只能把它送进一半的细胞里，但数量还是很多的。
We can basically at best get it into half of the cells, but still a lot of them.
不过我们现在走了一条稍微不同的路线。
We've taken a path that's a little different now.
你知道我之前说过，我们做这个已经有一段时间了，但外界其实不太清楚我实验室在搞什么。
You know how I was saying we've been doing this for a while and the world doesn't really know what we're up to in my lab.
我可以透露一下，过去五年里，我们在把它做成药丸方面取得了突破。
I can reveal that over the last five years we've made breakthroughs in turning it into a pill.
接下来我实验室要公布的大新闻就是，我们可以给一只老鼠，一只老年老鼠，口服某种东西。
That's the next big thing that'll come out of my lab is revealing that we can give a mouse, an old mouse, something orally.
它们不会去嚼药丸。
So they don't chew on the pill.
我们通过喉咙给它喂下去，每周三天，持续一个月，然后我们发现它们在很多方面都恢复了年轻，不只是记忆力，甚至连皮肤质量都改善了。
We give it down their throat for three days a week for a month, and we see that they are rejuvenated in many ways, including not just their memory, but things like even their skin quality.
这是怎么回事？
What's happening?
这药丸对它们有什么作用？
What's the pill doing to them?
这个嘛，工作量很大。
Well, that's a lot of work.
我们还在研究，但我们……
We're still trying to figure that out, but we
所以你知道它有效，但不一定知道它为什么有效或者怎么起作用的。
So you know it works, but you don't necessarily know why or how it works.
其实我们真的不太清楚人类眼睛里的基因是怎么运作的。
Well, we we actually literally don't know how the genes that are in the eye of humans now work, really.
这是我们实验室一直在努力解答的一个大问题——这份备份软件到底藏在哪里。
That's a big question in in my lab is trying to answer, where is this backup copy of software?
但我们确实知道它有效。
But we do know it works.
这才是最难的部分。
That's the hard part.
然后弄清楚它是怎么起作用的，对让这些药物变得更好、更强效、更持久会很重要。
And then figuring out how it works will be important to make these drugs even better and more powerful and more potent and longer lasting.
但我们确实知道的是，表观基因组参与了这种药丸，不仅仅是基因治疗，因为我们可以干扰那种CD的抛光或软件的重置。
But what we do know is that the epigenome is involved in the pill, not just in the gene therapy, because we can disrupt that polishing of the CD or the reset of the software.
有一些叫做TET的基因，它们产生的蛋白质会剥离DNA上的化学物质。
There are genes called TETs, which make proteins that strip away chemicals off DNA.
这些对胚胎以及我们体内的表观基因组重置至关重要。
These are key to the epigenome reset in embryos as well as in our bodies.
我们可以用化学物质去除或抑制它们，我们可以把这些喂给老鼠或给细胞。
And we can get rid of them or inhibit them with a chemical, We can feed those to the mice or give it to the cells.
而且我们有一些很好的证据。
And we have some good evidence.
我希望我的学生不会因为我在公开场合这么说而怪我，但我们确实有很好的证据表明，这种药丸，我们姑且称之为鸡尾酒，确实是通过这种表观遗传机制起作用的。
I hope my students don't kill me for saying this publicly, but we do have good evidence that the pill, let's call it, the cocktail, does work through this epigenetic thing.
这不仅仅是，哦，细胞受到化学物质的压力，然后它们反击，活得更久。
It's not just, oh, the cells are getting stressed out by the chemicals and they fight back and they live longer.
不是那样的。
It's not that.
确实是靠这个重置机制，我们可以通过去除这些从DNA上剥离化学物质的TET酶来证明这一点。
It's truly through this reset mechanism, and we can show that by getting rid of these TET enzymes that strip chemicals off the DNA.
如果没有这个机制，即使有这些化学物质，细胞也不会变年轻。
And without that mechanism, the cells don't get younger even with the chemicals.
你觉得人类寿命会有一个现实的上限吗？
Do you think there's gonna be a realistic upper bound to human life?
嗯，问题是什么时候。
Well, question is when?
我认为最终人类寿命是没有上限的。
I think that ultimately there is no upper limit to human life.
我刚去了日本的一个盆景园，那里的树有一千年了，但它们连一半的生命都还没过完。
I just visited a bonsai garden in Japan where the trees are a thousand years old and they're not even halfway through their life.
所以生物学是没有极限的。
So biology doesn't have limits.
这只是一个关于我们的基因组和表观基因组编码了什么的问题。
It's just a question of what our genome encodes and our epigenome.
但本世纪我们已经能够掌控自己的生物学。
But we have control this century over our own biology.
我们不必再受制于进化和塞伦盖蒂草原赋予我们的一切。
We don't have to just be at the whim of what evolution and the Serengeti gave us.
而且我看不到任何上限。
And I see no upper limit.
这并不意味着我认为你和我能永生。
Doesn't mean I think you and I will be immortals.
那目前还超乎想象。
That's right now beyond imagination.
嗯，这确实是想象，但超出了我能想到的技术范围。
Well, it's definitely imagination, but it's beyond technology that I can think of.
但我确实认为，我们中的一些人有机会多活几十年，而且可能第一个活到150岁的人已经出生了？
But I do think that some of us will have a chance to live decades longer, and probably the first person to live to a 150 is already alive?
第一个活到150岁的人已经出生了？
First person to live to a 150 is already alive?
是的。
Yeah.
我这一行里不止我一个人这么说。
I'm not the only one in my field saying that.
现在这已经变得现实了。
It's now realistic.
我是说，你可以这样想。
I mean, think about it this way.
未来是很难想象的。
It's hard to imagine the future.
对吧？
Right?
但今天出生的孩子会活到22世纪，而我们甚至无法想象十年后的世界会是什么样子。
But a kid born today is gonna live into the twenty second century, and we can't even imagine what the world's gonna be like ten years from now.
所以，实际上，你活得越久，就能活得更久。
So the longer you live, actually, the longer you get to live.
那如果有人长期服用逆转衰老的药，他们岂不是会变成婴儿？
Surely if someone took age reversal pills for long enough, they'd just become a baby.
难道不是这样运作的吗？
Is that not the way it works?
这个嘛，我们确保这种情况不会发生。
Well, we we made sure that wouldn't happen.
那是王成可能考虑过的其中一个问题。
That was one of the the things that Wang Cheng might
让所有人都参与进来。
have everybody into it.
对。
Yeah.
好吧，那就是关键所在。
Well, that was the trick.
胚胎死亡。
Embryonic death.
好。
K.
山中教授，山中伸弥教授因为让细胞回到零岁状态并变成干细胞而获得了诺贝尔奖，但那对我们没有帮助。
Yamanaka, professor Yamanaka won the Nobel Prize for making cells go back to age zero and making them into stem cells, but that's not gonna help us.
我们不想抹去所有细胞的特性。
We don't wanna strip away the identity of all our cells.
我们几天内就会死。
We die within a couple of days.
事实上，如果你对动物这么做，它要么悲惨地死去，要么得癌症。
And in fact, if you do that to an animal, it tragically does die or gets cancer.
所以从2014年到2017年，我们花了最长时间来研究如何逆转衰老，但又不能太过，以至于失去细胞的特性或将其抹去。
So what took us the longest time from 2014 to 2017 was figuring out how to reverse aging, but not so much that it loses the identity of the cell or erases it.
我的学生王诚，差点就退出了这个项目，这很有名。
And my student, Wang Cheng, famously almost quit the project.
他当时在读博士。
He was doing his PhD.
那是他最后一年，但什么都不顺利。
He was in his last year, and nothing was working.
他要么对培养皿里的人体细胞没有效果，要么细胞就癌变了。
He was either having no effect on the human cells in the dish or they were becoming cancerous.
他说，大卫，我不知道怎么让它停在半路。
And he said, David, I don't know how to stop it halfway.
我们想出了最后一个实验，幸好成功了，不然我们现在就不会聊这个了。
And we came up with one last experiment that thank goodness it works because we wouldn't be talking about it now.
我们试了一个子集，只用三个山中因子，而漏掉其中一个山中因子是关键。
We tried a subset, just three of the Yamanaka genes, and leaving one of these Yamanaka genes out was key.
没有最后一个基因，我们叫它CMIC，我们称它为M，没有M基因，细胞不会完全回到零岁。
Without that final gene, it's called CMIC, we call it M, without M, the M gene, cells don't go back a 100%.
它们会回到大约75%的状态，然后停下来。
They go back about 75 and stop.
这就是突破点。
And and that was the breakthrough.
那个停止点很难找到，但它确实存在。
The stop was really hard to find, but it's there.
我本来想把所有东西都变成干细胞。
I was just gonna turn everything into stem cells.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
或者变成癌症。
Or cancer.
那就更糟了。
It's even worse.
嗯，可能不算更糟，但肯定很糟糕。
Well, maybe not not worse, but it's definitely bad.
你不会活得更久，也治不了失明。
You're not gonna live longer or cure blindness.
但那是个突破，万成给我发了那些更年轻的细胞的照片，说，找到了，我觉得我们成功了。
But that was a breakthrough, and Wan Cheng sent me the pictures of the cells that were younger and said, Eureka, I think we've done it.
见证那一刻真是了不起。
And it was a remarkable thing to witness.
你觉得大多数长寿专家私下里相信，但无法证明或目前不愿公开说的是什么？
What do you think most longevity experts secretly believe but can't prove or won't say publicly at the moment?
天哪。
Gosh.
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
我本来想说，他们大多数私下觉得我把这事儿吹得太过了，这其实也不公平，因为我的实验室比我们发表的研究领先了八年。
I was gonna say most of them secretly think that I hype this stuff way way more than I should, which is, again, not a fair thing because my lab is eight years ahead of what we've published.
但我认为，大多数衰老研究者，我可以肯定地说，在幕后，他们会说这将会比我们预期的更宏大、更有力。
But I think most most aging researchers, I can say for a fact behind the scenes, say this is gonna be much bigger and more powerful than we expected.
有些同事跟我说，别提150这个数字。
I've been told by some of my colleagues, don't say that number 150.
那会让我们看起来很糟糕。
It makes us look bad.
然后我会说，那你信不信呢？
And I'll say, well, do you believe in it?
信。
Yeah.
但我们是科学家，不能这么说，不然会失去信誉。
But we can't say that because we're scientists and we'll lose credibility.
所以我觉得很多科学家天生就非常谨慎，这是职业使然。
So, I think a lot of the scientists are very cautious by nature, by the profession.
我算是异类，敢说敢讲，但大多数科学家不会，因为这不是科学家通常做的事。
I'm considered an outlier speaking my mind and what I believe in, but most scientists don't because it it's not something scientists typically do.
为什么你会被视为局外人？
Why is it that you're seen as an outsider?
你是不是比其他人更不顾风险？
Are you throwing more caution to the wind than other people?
是不是他们对证据的标准和你的不一样？
Is it that their criteria for evidence is is different to yours?
是不是你的实验室能接触到别人接触不到的信息？
Is it that your lab has got access to information that other people don't?
嗯，有几个原因。
Well, there's a few reasons.
确实是我的实验室掌握着别人不知道的信息，这在我整个职业生涯中一直很困难，因为我知道某些事情是真的，但还没有发表。
It's definitely that my lab has information that nobody else knows, and that's been difficult my whole career knowing that something's true, but it's not published yet.
所以在同事们的眼里，它还不存在。
So in the minds of my colleagues, it doesn't exist yet.
事实上，我的书在某些情况下比发表的研究早了好几年就出版了。
And in fact, my book came out in some cases years before he published the work.
所以公众比同事们更早知道了我们实验室的工作。
So the public knew my lab's work before other colleagues had seen it.
这也很少见。
That's also rare.
我之所以有点像个局外人，还有一个原因，就是我做这些不是为了当科学家。
Another reason why I'm a bit of an outsider is I'm not doing this to be a scientist.
我做这些是因为我有一个使命，我自己的生命根本不重要。
I'm doing this because I'm on a mission and my life is irrelevant.
为了完成这个使命，我真的可以付出生命。
I would literally die to achieve this mission.
所以，就算被人批评，或者我直言不讳，我也真的不在乎。
And so if I get criticized or if I speak my mind, I really don't care.
你的使命是什么？
What's the mission?
尽可能积极地去影响更多人的生活。
To impact in a positive way as many lives as possible.
这个想法从我四岁起就有了。
This was since I was four years old.
这个使命是我奶奶给我的，因为她亲身经历了二战以及欧洲战后的那段岁月。
My grandmother gave that mission to me because she lived through World War II and the aftermath in Europe.
她告诉我人类曾经做过、也能做出多么可怕的事情。
And she told me the horrific things that humans did and can do.
她总是说，我们人类这个物种可以做得更好。
And she was always saying, we can do better as a species.
我觉得我想在离开这个世界的时候，知道自己已经为人类尽了最大的努力。
And I feel like I wanna die knowing that I've done the most for humanity that I could possibly do.
就算这会让一些人不高兴，我也不在乎。
And and if it upsets a few people, I don't care.
我从上千期播客节目中学到，你的健康习惯越简单，你就越能坚持下去。
I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes, the easier that you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be.
就像打高尔夫一样。
It's like golf.
对吧？
Right?
你得保持简单，别把一堆药片混在一起。
You wanna keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills.
你要的是老虎的眼神，不是老虎的酒驾。
You want the eye of the tiger, not the DUI of the tiger.
这就是为什么我这么喜欢AG1。
That's why I'm such a huge fan of AG1.
一勺就含有75种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和全食物来源的成分，每天喝一杯就够了，这也是为什么我近五年来每天早上都在喝。
One scoop contains 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food source ingredients in a single daily drink, and that's why I've been taking it every single morning for nearly five years now.
而且他们更进一步，AG1有四项临床试验支持。
And they've taken it a step further with AG1 backed by four clinical trials.
在这些试验中，它被证明能填补常见的营养缺口，在三个月内改善关键营养素水平，并且即使对已经吃得很好的人，也能让肠道有益菌增加10倍。
In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in people who already eat well.
另外，如果你还不确定，他们有90天退款保证，所以你可以买来每天试喝，连续三个月。
Plus, if you're still unsure, they've got a ninety day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it every single day for three months.
如果你不喜欢，他们会全额退款。
If you don't like it, they will give you all of your money back.
现在，你可以通过点击下方描述中的链接，或者访问drinkag1.com/modernwisdom，享受欢迎套装20%的折扣，以及那九十天退款保证。
Right now, you can get 20% off a welcome kit and that ninety day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
网址是drinkag1.com/modernwisdom。
That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
长寿是一个很大的领域。
Longevity is a huge field.
对吧？
Right?
涵盖了一切。
Includes everything.
当你想到人们可以做的各种不同类型的干预措施时，你会怎么把它们分组呢？
When you think about all of the different types of interventions that people can do, how do you chunk them into groups?
大致上，人们应该考虑哪些方面来促进他们的寿命？
Sort of what are the buckets that people should be thinking about as contributing to their Yeah.
寿命？
Lifespan?
对。
Yeah.
这个我在我的YouTube频道上也讲过。
So I talk about this on on my YouTube as well.
现在上面有很多详细内容，而且我已经重新发布了。
So there's a lot of detail on there now, and I've relaunched it.
恭喜你，Gus。
It's Congratulations, Gus.
欢迎回到这个圈子。
Welcome back into the fray.
我很高兴你不再在实验室里做那些没意义的工作，转而投入到正经的YouTube视频制作中。
I'm glad that you've stopped doing the wasteful work in your lab and gone into the serious work of YouTube videos.
对。
Yeah.
我之前一直在研究抗衰老，现在临床试验已经开始了，我又回到了……嗯。
I was working on solving aging, and now now that the clinical trials have started, I'm back to Mhmm.
更多，但没错。
More But yeah.
所以我们在播客里讨论的是，人们可以采取哪些主要措施来延缓衰老，甚至逆转某些方面的衰老。
So what we talk about on the podcast is what are the the major things that people can do to slow down aging and even reverse aspects of it.
但如果这项技术很快就要来了，你领先了八年，大家都在进行长寿逃逸速度的赌注。
But if we've got this technology coming soon, you're eight years ahead, everybody is doing the longevity escape velocity bet.
对吧？
Right?
我每多活一天，就有更多天可以活。
For every day that I live, there's more days that I can hopefully live.
所以在这期间，这些就是重点。
So in the interim, those are the buckets.
对吧？
Right?
这就是人们现在需要关注的事情。
That's the stuff that people need to focus on now.
当然。
For sure.
我觉得任何不关注自己长寿的人可能会错过机会。
I think anyone that doesn't focus on their longevity might miss the boat.
如果你在这些技术问世前几天就去世了，那真是太可惜了。
It'd be tragic if you you died a few days before some of these technologies came out.
而且我不担心你近期会倒下。
And this is I'm not worried about you killing over anytime soon.
你身体很健康。
You're very fit.
但你的父母、祖父母，想想他们。
But your parents, your grandparents think about them.
所以尽量鼓励他们过上我们接下来要讨论的健康生活方式。
So try to encourage them to live the healthy lifestyle that we're gonna discuss now.
这些方面就是生活方式。
The buckets are lifestyle.
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这里面，我们能聊的显而易见的东西包括你吃什么、怎么运动、怎么休息、你的压力，这些方面。
So within that, there's the obvious things that we can talk about, which is what you eat, how you move, how you rest, your stress, these kind of things.
这些是你每天都能做、也应该做的事情。
That's what you can do and you should do on a daily basis.
我自己就是这么做的。
It's what I do.
然后还有药物，其中一些可能有效。
Then there's drugs, some of which may work.
比如二甲双胍、雷帕霉素、一些抗衰老药物，可能还有GLP-1受体激动剂，这些都属于这一类。
So that's metformin, rapamycin, some senolytics, and probably GLP-one receptor agonists would fall into that bucket.
再就是补充剂，这就像个蛮荒西部。
And then there's supplements, which is the wild west.
关于它们有很多说法。
There's a lot of things said about them.
基于大量的动物研究和一些人类数据，我相信其中少数几种。
I believe in a few of them based on a lot of animal research and some human data.
这三件主要的事情，你在日常生活中应该做到，才能最大程度地提高获得这些药物的机会。
Those are the three main things that you should do in your daily life to maximize your chance of getting these medicines.
好的。
Okay.
生活方式方面的东西。
Lifestyle stuff.
对。
Yeah.
上次我们聊的时候，主要讲的是热量限制，尤其是通过禁食来实现热量限制。
Last time that we were talking, it was all about calorie restriction and primarily fasting as a route toward calorie restriction.
如果人们想尽可能长寿，按照你2026年的数据，他们应该怎么吃？
How should people eat if they want to live as long as possible now with your 2026 data?
其实，我在播客上说了大概四年了，这个观点一直没变。
Well, actually, what I've been saying, actually, on on my podcast for now, what, four years, it hasn't changed.
还有我的书《寿命》，我们2019年第一次见面时聊过，那本书里我没有任何内容需要修改。
And my book, Lifespan, which came out we were talking about when we first met in 2019, it nothing in that book I've had to revise.
都是一致的。
It's all consistent.
2019年那本书里没有需要撤回的内容吗？
No retractions from the book in 2019?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我的实验室也从未撤回任何东西，到目前为止，也从未被证明是错误的，这算是幸运，我得敲敲木头。
And my labs never retracted anything, and at this point, never been proven wrong, which is a blessing, and I knock on touch on wood.
但这是好消息，意味着我之前说过的东西，人们仍然可以回去学习。
But that's good news, which means that the things that I've said before, people can go back and learn still.
如果你是第一次见到我，那我们就从头开始。
If this is the first time you're seeing me, let's start.
关于禁食，主要的事情是，我们从动物和一些人类数据中知道，但主要来自动物，如果你限制进食的频率，在一定程度上也限制进食的量，你会获得长寿的好处。
So the main things about fasting are we know from animals and some human data, but mostly from animals that if you restrict how often you eat and to some extent how much you eat, you get longevity benefits.
我们还可以聊聊蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪的比例。
And we can talk about protein ratio to carbs to fats.
这也是一个很大的争论点，你知道的。
That's also a whole big debate as you know.
但一般来说，我喜欢一天吃一顿，如果社交场合可能需要两顿，但不会吃三顿。
But generally, I like to eat one meal a day, maybe two if I'm being social, but not three.
我觉得一天三顿加零食是营销出来的。
I think three meals a day plus snacks is marketing.
早餐是一天中最重要的一餐，这说法是通用磨坊或者家乐氏那类公司搞出来的。
Breakfast being the most important meal of the day was General Mills, I believe, one of those companies, Kellogg's perhaps.
但你知道，这些都是营销。
But this is you know, it's all marketing.
人类不是为了一直吃东西而设计的。
Humans are not built to eat that consistently.
我不觉得原始人会坐在那儿吃丰盛的早餐，然后想：午餐吃什么呢？
I don't think cavemen were sitting around eating their big breakfast saying, what are we gonna eat for lunch?
我觉得，也许他们刚杀了一头猛犸象的时候会吃，但一般来说，他们很多时候都挺饿的。
I think, maybe if they just killed a mammoth, but generally they were pretty hungry a lot of the time.
我们的身体已经适应了这种情况。
And our bodies have adapted to that.
我们不是生来就要一直吃饱的。
We're not meant to always be satisfied.
所以我会刻意让自己保持饥饿感。
And so I try to be hungry.
如果我稍微胖了一点，有时候是因为我出差时吃得好。
And if I gain a little bit of weight, sometimes I travel and I eat well.
我和塞雷娜有时候真的很爱吃。
And Serena and I, we do sometimes love to eat.
我出差回来后会连续三天不吃饭。
I'll come home from travel and just I won't eat for three days.
有时候两个星期，我可以不吃东西。
Sometimes two weeks, I can go without food.
这没什么大不了的。
It's not a big deal
几周不吃饭？
weeks without food?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我可能会嚼点芹菜什么的，但那不算真正的营养。
I might munch on a on a piece of celery or something, but that's not really nutrition.
我会喝很多水。
I will drink a lot.
我会喝很多低热量、零卡路里的饮料，还有大量的茶，诸如此类的。
I'll drink a lot of low calorie, zero calorie drinks, lot of tea, that kind of stuff.
但我可以两周不吃饭。
But I can go without food for two weeks.
感觉特别好。
It feels great.
过了头三天，饥饿感就没了。
After the first three days, I'm over the hunger feeling.
我能从我的监测器上看到，我这儿就戴着一个。
I can see on my monitor, I've got one on here.
动态血糖仪。
CGM.
哦，动态血糖仪。
Oh, the CGM.
对。
Yep.
我能看到它对我的身体产生了多大的影响。
I can see the great impact it's had having on my body.
我可以在我的戒指上监测到它。
I can monitor it on my rings.
我会做血液检查，这很重要。
I do blood tests, which is important.
你不能光靠猜，哪些有效，哪些没效。
You don't wanna just guess what's working, what isn't.
不过，是的，我知道两周听起来挺久的。
But, yeah, I know two weeks sounds like a lot.
但确实挺久的。
But It is a lot.
听起来好像
It's like it doesn't sound
不太久。
like a lot.
但其实挺久的。
It is a lot.
确实挺久的。
It is a lot.
而且我就是个普通人。
And I'm a regular guy.
我不像有些人，花几百万在身体上，什么都量。
I'm not like some people that spend millions of dollars on their body and measure everything.
我有点懒。
I'm kinda lazy.
我不喜欢饿肚子。
I don't like being hungry.
我喜欢吃。
I like food.
我喜欢吃零食。
I like to snack.
喜欢熬夜。
Like to stay up late.
你要是放任我，我就是个典型的享乐主义者。
I'm a typical hedonist if you let me go.
其实直到一年前，我都没断食超过24小时。
And actually up until a year ago, I actually hadn't fasted more than twenty four hours.
我就是做不到。
I just couldn't do it.
感觉就是，这太痛苦了，而且我压力很大。
It's like, this is painful, and I'm stressed.
所以如果我压力大，我就会吃东西。
So if I'm stressed, I'm gonna eat.
但过去一年我学到的是，我可以超过24小时。
But what I've learned over this past year is I can go beyond 24.
一旦超过三天，身体就会启动某种机制。
And once I'm over three days, something kicks in.
实际上，从分子层面我们知道有一种叫做分子伴侣介导的自噬，简称CMA，它能深层清理那些错误折叠和变性的蛋白质，这些蛋白质是我们在抗衰老或延缓衰老时想要清除的。
Actually, we know molecularly there's something called chaperone mediated autophagy or CMA, which is the deep cleanse of these misfolded and modified proteins that you wanna get rid of for aging or slowing aging.
过了那三天之后，我开始感觉非常好。
And after those three days, I start to feel amazing.
我的头脑变得清晰了。
My mind clears.
我完全不觉得胀气。
I don't feel bloated at all.
我甚至不需要经常去厕所，除了因为喝了很多茶，但你明白我的意思。
I don't even have to go to the toilet that often except for all the tea, but you know what I mean.
而且，是的，我感觉精力充沛。
And yeah, I feel energized.
我在监测自己的身体，确保不过度。
And I'm measuring myself, so I'm making sure I'm not overdoing it.
这并不适合所有人。
This is not for everybody.
如果你很瘦，或者有肚子，或者有脂肪，或者你是老年人，那就不适合你。
If you're skinny and you've got belly, any fat, or you're elderly, it's not for you.
但对我来说，我很容易增重和长肌肉。
But for me, I gain weight and muscle pretty easily.
我的体重会有波动。
I can fluctuate.
所以我看着体重往下掉。
And so I watch my weight come down.
我有一个秤可以量体重。
I've got a scale that measures my weight.
我不知道能不能提品牌名，或者是不是不允许，但我确实喜欢Withings的秤，因为它
I don't know if I can measure say the name or if it it's forbidden, but I do like the Withings scale because it
智能秤连手机，是的。
Smart scale links to the phone Yeah.
如果握住手柄，还能测出身体成分。
Would get you composition as well if you hold the handle.
对。
Yeah.
我从2013年就开始用了。
And and I've had one since 2013.
所以我有了所有这些关于体重和身体成分的数据，这太棒了。
So I've got all this data on my body weight and composition, which is awesome.
而且我一直在努力把这十三天保持在最佳水平。
And I'm trying to maintain that at the optimal level over these last thirteen
天。
days.
这两周的事让我太震惊了。
This two weeks thing is blowing my mind.
十天之后你靠什么维持？
What are you running on after ten days?
你是不是营养不良？你有没有补充维生素之类的东西，免得得坏血病？
Are you why is malnutrition are you supplementing with with vitamins and stuff so that you don't get scurvy?
比如，你怎么还没倒下？
Like, why are you not dropping dead?
我快倒下了。
I am.
不是。
No.
我很高兴你这么说，克里斯，因为重要的是要说，我在这件事上是很科学的。
I'm glad you said that, Chris, because it's important to say, I'm a scientist about this.
我不是随便就放弃所有东西的。
I'm not just willy nilly giving up everything.
所以你就靠芹菜和绿茶撑两周，就这么硬扛着。
So you celery and green tea surviving for two weeks, just brosizing it.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，也不是。
Well, no.
我不是那样做的。
I'm not doing that.
我之所以用手，是因为我经常旅行，而在家里，我有一个小包，里面装着维生素、补充剂和药物，这些都是我一直在用的，我很清楚自己需要什么。
I the reason I'm using my hands is I travel, and at home, I have a little carry pack with vitamins, supplements, and medicines that I've been using and know very well what I need.
其实每天早上，我都要吃一堆补品和药，像交响乐一样。
Every morning, it's a symphony of supplements and medicines, actually.
我知道我的身体需要什么。
I know what my body needs.
我知道什么有效。
I know what what works.
所以我就这么做。
So I do that.
所以不是每个人都能做到这一点。
So there's not not anybody can do that.
所以如果你长时间禁食，确保你补充足够的水分，这非常重要。
So it's really important if you do fast for long periods, make sure you enough hydration, very important.
这点我们都知道。
We know that.
但我也确保自己不会缺乏任何矿物质或维生素。
But also I'm making sure that I'm not deficient in any minerals or vitamins.
所以我也会补充维生素B、维生素C，还有一些我知道自己可能会缺乏的营养素。
And so I'm taking in things like vitamin B, vitamin C as well, and some nutrients that I know I can become deficient in.
你觉得从第四天到第十四天，你身体内部会发生什么变化？
What do you think is happening inside of your body after from day four until the day 14?
具体是什么情况？
What's what's going on?
其实，我们并不是通过测量我自己知道的，而是通过多年的研究，我们了解人体会发生什么变化。
Well, we we know, actually, not from measuring me, but we know from many years of study what happens to the human body.
最初的二十四小时，你会消耗掉大量的糖分，然后是肝脏里的糖原。
The first twenty four hours, you're you're gonna use up a lot of the the sugar and then the glycogen in your liver.
我更愿意相信，我的肝脏比我的嘴巴更懂得如何稳定血糖，给我适量的葡萄糖。
What I like to think is my liver knows how to steady my glucose and give me the right amount of glucose far more than my mouth does.
我的肝脏比我的眼睛和嘴巴更聪明。
My liver is smarter than my eyes and my mouth.
任何断食过的人都知道，如果你吃东西，血糖会像这样波动，然后你会觉得，哦，有能量了。
And anyone that's fasted knows that your blood sugar, if you're eating is like this and you go, oh, energy.
哦，脑子一片模糊。
Oh, brain fog.
精力充沛。
Energy.
脑子一片模糊。
Brain fog.
哦，下午犯困。
Oh, I'm sleepy in the afternoon.
这就是我们的日常生活。
That's our normal life.
如果你在禁食，你的肝脏会为你的大脑释放适量的酮体，或者你可以喝一些酮体饮料，或者它会产生葡萄糖，或者两者兼有。
If you're fasting, your liver just puts out just the right amount of ketones for your brain, or you can drink some ketone drinks, or it's making glucose or both.
你的大脑喜欢酮体。
Your brain loves ketones.
如果你禁食时间太长，你就会开始流失肌肉。
And if you do it too long, you will start to lose muscle.
所以我比平时锻炼得更多，以确保我不会掉体重。
So I'm working out more than I do normally to make sure I don't lose any weight.
这样体重秤就能告诉我是否在流失瘦体重，我不想那样，我会确保不流失。
And so that scale will tell me if I'm losing lean mass, which I don't wanna do, and I make sure that I don't lose it.
那你的肠胃不会有问题吗？
Is there not a concern to do with your gut?
是不是需要消化系统有东西通过呢？
Is there not is that does there not need to be transit through the digestive tract?
我不知道如果两周胃里什么都没有会怎么样。
I don't know what happens if nothing passes through your stomach for two weeks.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，我可以告诉你，你的大便会有变化。
Well, I can tell you your stool changes.
非常
There's very
我想也是。
I imagine it does.
它简直变得无影无踪了。
It turns fucking invisible.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
这就是所谓的“幽灵便便”。
There's phantom poo, as it's called.
对。
Yeah.
会放出一堆气来。
A bunch of gas coming out.
所以，对，我就是这个意思。
So, yeah, that's what I meant.
我不太经常去洗手间了。
I'm not in the bathroom as often.
实际上这样效率更高，除非你在洗手间里也能高效工作。
It's actually much more productive, unless you're productive on
我发现影响我工作效率的最大障碍其实就是洗手间。
the I do find that the biggest obstacle to my productivity is the bathroom, actually.
你确定你不是在洗手间里刷推特吗？
Are you sure you're not tweeting away down there?
但是，是的，你的肠道菌群，想想看，虽然这并没有被科学证实，但我觉得就像你的身体一样，给肠道菌群来点刺激是有好处的，就像一种有益的应激反应。
But, yeah, your microbiome, think and this is not proven by any means, but I feel like just like your body, it helps to give your microbiome a shake up, a bit of hormesis, which is a little bit of stress that's good for you.
我也想在自己身上做个实验，测量之前、期间和之后的变化，看看我的肠道菌群会有什么反应。
And I would love to do an experiment on myself as well, measure before, during, and after, and see what happens to my microbiome.
比如菌群之类的。
With flora and stuff like that.
嗯，我知道GLP类药物的一些预期正面效果包括减缓肠道蠕动，这实际上对SIBO、念珠菌或H之类的有帮助。
Well, I mean, I know that some of the proposed positive effects for GLPs include slowing motility through the gut, which actually helps with things like SIBO or candida or H.
幽门螺杆菌，因为速度，这就是为什么每个听这个的健身老铁，你你人生中某个时刻都曾擦肩而过SIBO，或者现在可能就有，因为你一直大量进食，高蛋白高淀粉，不停地吃。
Pylori because the pace this is why everybody, every bro lifter that's listening to this, you you at some point in your life have glanced off the bottom of SIBO or maybe have it right now because just the sheer volume of food that you're putting through yourself all the time, grazing high protein, high starch.
我觉得，这可能是GLP类药物起作用的机制之一。
Like, that's one of the proposed mechanisms, I think, that helps from GLPs.
我也不确定。
And I don't know.
这就是为什么我感兴趣，也许创造一个非常——我本来想说无菌环境。
That's why what I was interested maybe creating this very I was gonna say sterile environment.
不是无菌，是空无一物。
It's not it's barren.
这个完全空荡荡的环境，持续两周。
This completely vacant environment for two weeks.
我不知道那会有什么效果。
I have no idea what that does.
如果你有过度生长，是不是因为没东西吃，就全死了？
You had a overgrowth, does it kill it all because it's not being fed?
它会不会让那些细菌建造城堡、大教堂，甚至给自己穿上盔甲？
Does it allow it to create castles and cathedrals and, you know, armor itself?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，这个问题的答案我也不知道。
Well, I don't know the answer to that.
不过我知道，胆汁里有些很有意思的东西，在你空腹的时候会分泌得更多。
I I do know that there's some really interesting things in bile that comes out more when you're fasted.
其中一种成分是胆酸，就是那种黑黑的东西，它会进入你的肠道菌群，然后菌群把它转化成一种分子，这种分子回到血液里，激活一个我们一直在研究的与长寿相关的基因。
One of the components is a a type of cholic acid, which is the black black stuff that goes into your microbiome, and your microbiome converts that into a molecule that goes back into your bloodstream and turns on a longevity gene that we've been working on.
它实际上会结合到那个蛋白质上，让蛋白质活性更强。
It actually binds to the protein and makes the protein more active.
这个基因叫SERT1。
It's called SERT1.
读过我书的人都知道SERT1是什么。
If anyone's read my book, they know what SERT1 is.
SERT1调节表观基因组，减缓软件的变化。
SERT1 regulates the epigenome, slows down the changes to the software.
所以长话短说，这至少是合理的，而且有一篇来自另一个研究组的《自然》论文，我审过，讲的是当你禁食时，你的微生物群更积极地将胆汁转化为健康的分子，还有短链脂肪酸。
And so long story short, it's it's at least plausible, and there's a nature paper on this from another group that I reviewed, that when you're fasting, your microbiome is more actively converting bile into healthy molecules, as well as short chain fatty acids.
这方面的文献很多。
There's a lot of literature on that.
这些分子进入你的身体，它们传递逆境信号。
And these molecules go into your body and they signal adversity.
你知道我喜欢逆境。
And you know that I like adversity.
逆境对健康有好处。
Adversity is good for your health.
有丰盛模式和逆境模式。
There's abundance and adversity mode.
这两种状态都好，但你不能一直待在一种状态里。
They're both good, but you don't wanna stay in one or the other.
那样你会加速衰老，甚至会死。
You'll accelerate your aging, and you'll you'll die.
所以你要在逆境和富足之间循环，而你的微生物会帮你度过这个过程。
So you wanna cycle between adversity and abundance, and your microbes help you get through that.
如果
What
有人说这听起来很吸引人，你会怎么说？
would you say let's say that someone finds this quite seductive.
一个好的开始是什么？
What would be a good start?
是一天断食，还是三天断食？他们应该怎么做？
A one day fast, a three day fast, and what what should they do?
有没有一个大概的步骤可以遵循，而不需要成为……对。
What would be a a rough protocol to follow without having to be a Yeah.
补充剂的指挥者？
Conductor of supplements?
对。
Yeah.
嗯，如果你从来没断食过，而且你每天正常吃早餐、午餐、晚餐，那你要么是肥胖，要么是运动量很大，因为这样吃会增重。
Well, if if you're if you've never fasted and you just wake up and you eat a normal breakfast, lunch, dinner, either you're obese or you exercise a lot because that's gonna put on weight.
但如果你愿意尝试，我建议跳过一餐，用大量液体来代替。
But if you are willing to try, I would suggest skipping one meal and replacing it with a lot of liquids.
对我来说，我不介意跳过早餐。
So for me, I I don't mind skipping breakfast.
不是每个人都想这么做，因为他们锻炼后觉得需要吃点东西。
Not everybody wants to do that because they work out and they feel like they need some food.
所以你可以选择跳过晚餐。
So you can instead, you can skip dinner.
我会吃一顿非常早的晚餐。
I would just have a very early dinner.
我很多年，大概三十年吧，一直尽量到下午晚些时候才吃东西。
What I was doing for many years, probably thirty years of my life, was trying not to eat anything until late lunch.
刚开始你肯定会觉得饿。
And you you will initially feel hungry.
这是关键。
This is the thing.
别放弃。
Don't give up.
因为你的身体需要几天时间才能适应不吃东西。
Because it takes a few days for your body to get used to not having the food.
它会对着你的大脑大喊大叫。
It'll be screaming at your brain.
我好饿。
I'm so hungry.
不吃这培根和鸡蛋我就要饿死了。
I'm gonna die if I don't eat this bacon and eggs.
但熬过去就好了。
But get get through it.
而且实际上，两周之后，早上或晚上吃东西反而会觉得特别奇怪。
And actually, after two weeks, it'll become really weird to eat food in the morning or at night.
你的身体会适应的。
Your body gets used to it.
你的大脑也会适应，但这确实需要一段时间。
Your brain gets used to it, but it does take a while.
有个小窍门就是多喝液体填饱肚子，不是含糖饮料，也不是
And the cheat code is fill your stomach with lots of liquids, Not sugary drinks, not
很多
a lot
卡路里，能零卡就零卡，或者只喝一点点。
of calories, zero if you can, or just a little bit.
我早上确实会摄入一点卡路里，因为对补充剂有好处，但主要还是大量喝水。
I do have a little bit of calories in the morning because it's good with my supplements, but a lot of water.
所以像这种低卡饮料，或者水、茶、红茶都可以。
So a low calorie drink like this or water, tea, black tea.
咖啡也很好。
Coffee is very good.
两者都不错。
They're both good.
其实茶和咖啡对身体都很好，因为它们含有其他分子，比如多酚，这些分子也能激活保护我们的酶。
Actually, tea and coffee are both very good for you because they contain other molecules like polyphenols that, again, can activate these enzymes that protect us.
不知从什么时候开始，精力不足就被当作变老的一部分接受了。
Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older.
其实这是有原因的。
Turns out there's a reason for that.
随着年龄增长，我们细胞里提供能量的线粒体变弱，产生的能量也变少，这就是为什么我非常推崇Timeline。
As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline.
他们开发了这款产品，能帮助清除受损的线粒体，让细胞真正自我更新。
They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves.
Timeline有超过十年的研究支持，拥有50多项专利，是全球排名第一的线粒体补充剂。
Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet.
这不仅仅是理论。
This isn't just theory.
在临床试验中，人们看到线粒体更新在短短十六周内增加了超过40%，同时整体能量也有所提升。
In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just sixteen weeks along with improvements in their overall energy.
我已经用了两年多了，因为我的医生在我和Timeline合作之前就推荐给我了。而且，马丁·什克雷利，你羡慕去吧，因为他们刚刚降价了，现在起价只要99美元。
I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline, and eat your heart out, Martin Shkreli, because they've just dropped the price, and it now starts at $99.
最棒的是，有三十天退款保证，美国境内还免运费，而且他们全球发货。
Best of all, there is a thirty day money back guarantee plus free shipping in The US, plus they ship internationally.
现在，只要点击下方描述中的链接，或者访问timeline.com/modernwisdom，在结账时使用代码modern wisdom，就能以99美元的价格再享受额外20%的折扣。
And right now, can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout.
记住，网址是timeline.com/modernwisdom，结账时使用代码modern wisdom。
That's timeline.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout.
我们有没有看到任何数据表明，限制热量摄入能延长人类的寿命？
Have we seen any data that shows calorie restriction increases lifespan in humans?
我知道这在啮齿类动物身上是存在的。
I know that this exists in rodents.
是的。
Yes.
有一个
There was
有一项研究，是关于猕猴还是什么的，但结果并不理想，因为那是一项长达二十年的研究。
A study that was done, was it macaques or something, and that didn't actually work because it was a two decade study.
而且第一版研究里，他们其实没有给它们喂同样的饮食，然后分成两组。
And the first version of the study, it turned out that they hadn't fed them the same diet and split it in half.
他们给其中一组喂垃圾食品，另一组喂健康食品。
They'd fed one of them a junk food diet and the other one had been given a healthy one.
后来他们重新做了这个实验，但结果似乎还是不明确。
Then they ran it back, and it seemed like the data was mixed there.
关于热量限制对人类寿命的影响，有什么证据吗？
What's the evidence about calorie restriction for longevity in humans?
有吗？
Is there any?
没有。
No.
有很多轶事和历史证据表明禁食对健康有益。
There's a lot of anecdotal and historical evidence that fasting is good for you.
也有一些为期几年的短期研究。
And there have been some short term studies over a couple of years.
有一项卡路里研究显示，在那段时间里，人们可以改善许多健康指标，并且这些改善有持久的影响，包括对表观基因组的影响。
There was the calorie study that showed that you could improve a lot of health biomarkers in humans over that time that had lasting effects including on the epigenome.
但没有人真正做过带有安慰剂的对照前瞻性研究。
But nobody's really done a prospective study with placebo.
这很难做到，甚至对照组也很难设置。
It's very hard to do that or even controls.
目前没有确凿证据，我认为短期内也不会有，但谁愿意再等一百年呢？
There's no proof, I don't think anytime soon there'll be proof, but who wants to wait another hundred years till that happens?
你没法等。
You can't.
你至少得依据现有的证据来做决定。
You've got to at least go based on the evidence.
而且在动物身上，这一点是无可争议的——如果你在保证营养的情况下做，而不是单纯挨饿，那对身体非常好，这也是我这么做的原因。
And in animals, it's incontrovertible that if you do it with nutrition, not just starving, it's very good for you, and that's why I do it.
关于那个猴子研究，我很了解，因为那两个意见相左的实验室，一个是我最好的朋友，另一个是我的学生。
I would say with the monkey study, I know it very well because the two labs that disagreed about this, one is one of my best friends and the other one is my trainee.
他们俩
And they
哦，哇。
were Oh, wow.
你正好夹在他们中间。
You're coincidental between the two of them.
对。
Yeah.
我其实没怎么参与，但我确实把他们聚到了一起，他们最后得出结论，确实能延长寿命。
I didn't really get involved, but I did bring them together and they came to the conclusion that, yes, it did extend lifespan.
这取决于兽医护理和其他环境因素。
It depended on the veterinary care and other environmental things.
威斯康星大学那边，另一个实验室，罗莎琳·安德森是我最初培训的教授，大概二十年前吧。
The University of Wisconsin where the other lab is, Rosalyn Anderson is the professor that I originally trained, what is it, twenty years ago.
现在是她负责这项研究，她的猴子活得更久。
She runs the study now, and her monkeys lived longer.
而且还有确凿的证据表明，这些猴子患癌症的几率更低，心脏病可能也少，但总的来说，疾病负担确实更低，而且寿命也稍微长一些。
And they also definitely incontrovertible evidence that they had less cancer and I think heart disease, but definitely overall disease burden in these monkeys was lower, and they lived slightly longer.
但即使它们没有活得更久，我还是会说，看看疾病方面的数据吧。
But even if they didn't live longer, I would say still look at the data on the diseases.
我的意思是，谁想在六七十岁的时候得癌症和心脏病呢？
I mean, who wants to get cancer and heart disease in their sixties and seventies?
为什么高热量消耗会增加患癌症和心脏病的风险？
Why would high calorie turnover increase your likelihood of cancer and heart disease?
嗯，这个嘛，
Well, there's a
有好几种不同的理论。
few different theories.
我最喜欢也最简单的那个理论是，当你的身体处于一种感知到的逆境状态时，比如跑步、增肌、举重和饥饿，这些都是逆境的信号。
The one that I like the best that's the simplest is that when your body is in a state of perceived adversity and running, building muscle, lifting weights, and hunger are signs of adversity.
另外，植物如果处于压力状态，也会给你的身体一个信号，告诉你食物可能会耗尽。
Also, plants that are stressed is a sign to your body that your food might run out.
这会让你的身体进入逆境模式。
This has put your body in adversity mode.
我之前提到的那个叫SERT1的酶，它能保护表观基因组，它会对饥饿和运动做出反应。
And this enzyme that I mentioned earlier called SERT1, which protects the epigenome, it responds to hunger and exercise.
有一种叫NAD的分子，你的很多听众和观众应该都知道。
There's a molecule called NAD that a lot of your listeners and viewers would know about.
这种酶会对NAD的水平做出反应。
This enzyme responds to NAD levels.
但简单来说，当你处于逆境模式时，你的身体会从生长和繁殖切换到生存模式。
But long story short is when you're in adversity mode, your body switches from growth and reproduction into survival mode.
而且，如果你每天或每周有一部分时间这样做，你就能在一定程度上抵御衰老的侵蚀、表观遗传变化、DNA损伤，以及所有我们知道的导致衰老的因素。
And at least if you do that for some of your day or some of your week, you'll get some protection against the ravages of aging, epigenetic changes, DNA damage, all of these things that we know contribute to aging.
你觉得，如果一个人一年内减少30%的热量摄入，另一个人也减少30%，但中间有很长的断食间隔，也就是说，一个是单纯减少热量，另一个是通过断食来减少热量，你觉得这两个人的结果会不一样吗？
Do you think that there would be a marked difference between somebody who restricted their calories by 30% over a year, let's say, and somebody who restricted their calories by 30% with big breaks in food, calorie restriction versus calorie restriction through fasting, do you think that those two people would have different kinds of outcomes?
所以，是不是一个人吃得比另一个人多？
So are the one is eating more than the other?
不是。
No.
他们摄入的总热量是一样的。
They're both eating the same amount of calories.
或者说是等热量摄入。
Or the isoconsorative.
比如说，一个人每小时摄入100卡路里，持续十八个小时，另一个人每天只吃一顿1800卡路里的饭。
Let's say that somebody has a 100 calories an hour for eighteen hours of the day, and another person has one meal that's 1,800 calories per day.
有很多证据表明，在某个时间窗口内进食要健康得多。
There's a lot of evidence that eating within the time window is the one that's much healthier.
我之前提到的那个朋友，拉斐尔·德卡博，在美国国立卫生研究院工作，他做的实验虽然是在老鼠身上，但我认为有很多证据表明这同样适用于人类。
The friend that I mentioned earlier, Rafael DeCabo down at the NIH here in The US, what he did, again, in mice, but I think there's a lot of evidence that it would translate to humans.
他给老鼠大致相同数量的卡路里，但让它们一整天都在吃，而且必须很快吃完。
He gave mice roughly the same amount of calories, but he gave it to them all day, and they had to gobble it all down quickly.
它们吃什么并不重要。
It didn't matter what they were eating.
蛋白质、碳水化合物、脂肪的比例各不相同。
It was different amounts of protein, carbohydrate, fat.
他原本想找到最佳饮食方案，但结果发现，在固定时间窗口内进食的那组老鼠，寿命明显长于那些持续进食的老鼠。
He was hoping to find the optimal diet, but he found that the group that ate within that window lived substantially longer than the ones that ate continuously.
我看到你转发了一条关于蛋白质被过度吹捧的推文，就是那个“蛋白质最大化”运动。
I saw you quote tweet something about protein being overhyped, the protein maxing movement.
你对此有什么看法？
What's your position on that?
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
蛋白质是好的。
Protein is good.
我完全不反对蛋白质。
I'm not against protein at all.
其实我自己也吃很多蛋白质，大部分来自植物，原因我后面会讲。
I eat a lot of protein myself, actually, mostly from plants for reasons that I'll get to.
但这种死心塌地只吃肉、完全不吃蔬菜的做法，绝对不符合长寿科学。
But this diehard, be a carnivore, forget about the green stuff, definitely not consistent with the science of longevity.
这符合健身的科学，而且确实给了我们
It's consistent with the science of bodybuilding, and it definitely gives us we
知道是更高级的科学。
know is a superior science.
对。
Yeah.
这就是长寿的科学。
It's the science of longevity.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
虽然看起来不像，但我其实挺喜欢健身的，比其他运动都喜欢。
Well, as much as it doesn't look like it, I really like bodybuilding over other exercise.
我就是太忙了。
I'm just busy.
我以前经常锻炼。
I used to work out a lot.
我热爱健身，蛋白质对增肌来说必不可少。
I love bodybuilding and protein is essential for building muscle.
毫无疑问。
No question.
对吧？
Okay?
而且你可以从蛋白粉和肉类中获取大量蛋白质。
And you can get a lot of protein from protein supplements and meat.
我觉得被过度炒作的地方在于，我们知道植物对于提供多酚至关重要，而且缺乏特定的支链氨基酸对健康也非常有益。
Where I think it's been overhyped is we know that plants are essential for providing polyphenols, and having a lack of branched chain amino acids specifically is also very good for health.
这方面有很多数据，尤其是在动物身上，但也有一些人类研究。
A lot of data on that, especially in animals, but some in humans.
所以支链氨基酸，有些听众可能知道它们是什么。
So branched chain amino acids, some people listening will know what they are.
缬氨酸、异亮氨酸、亮氨酸，这三种是20种氨基酸中的三种，在动物中比在植物中更丰富。
Valine, isoleucine, leucine, these are three of the 20 amino acids that are found in more abundance in animals than in plants.
当你给动物大量这些支链氨基酸时，它们的寿命比给得少时要短。
And when you give animals a lot of these branched chain amino acids, they live shorter than if you give them less.
这一点在人类的短期研究中也得到了证实。
And this has been shown in short term studies in humans.
如果限制人类摄入富含支链氨基酸的蛋白质，他们的代谢状况会变得更好。
If you restrict protein that has a lot of branched chain amino acids in humans, they get better metabolically.
但我不是说不能吃肉或不能摄入蛋白质。
But I'm not saying you can't eat meat or you can't eat protein.
我的意思是，只吃其中一种并不是最好的生活方式。
What I'm saying is just doing one or the other is not really the best way to live.
我觉得最好的方式是交替进行。
I think the best way is to pulse it.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以如果你在锻炼，想增肌，是的，你可以吃肉。
So if you're working out, you wanna build muscle, yeah, you can eat meat.
我偶尔也会吃肉。
I eat meat occasionally.
这没问题。
It's not a problem.
但你需要在你的生活中，或者说一天或一周里，留出一段时间不吃肉，或者干脆不吃东西。
But you wanna have a period of your life or your, let's say, your day or your week where you're not eating meat or you're just not eating.
这样至少能让你的身体部分时间处于这种逆境模式。
And that puts your body at least part of the time in this adversity mode.
你应该两者都做吗？
Should you be doing both?
比如说，有人在做OMAD或者16:8或者某种断食方案。
Let's say that somebody's doing OMAD or sixteen eight or some sort of fasting protocol.
你还会另外考虑间歇性地调整蛋白质摄入吗？
Would you still be looking to pulse protein intake as well separately to that?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
答案是——所以
The answer is- So
你可能会一周有一天不摄入蛋白质？
you'd maybe go one day a week without protein as well?
没有蛋白质，我觉得你活不了。
Well, without protein, I don't think you'll live.
对吧？
Right?
你需要一些蛋白质，但你是说大量的蛋白质还是说肉？
You need some protein, but you mean huge amounts of protein or you mean meat?
不是。
No.
我的意思是，你说有段时间要专注蛋白质，有段时间不用。
Mean, like, you're saying that there's time for you to focus on protein and then there's time not to.
你应该禁食。
You should be fasting.
我在想，从宏量营养素的角度来看，你是否也应该禁食蛋白质？
I'm wondering whether you should be fasting from protein from a macronutrient standpoint as well in your opinion.
我觉得不需要。
I don't think so.
我不会刻意去禁食蛋白质。
I don't try to fast from protein.
我会减少大量卡路里的摄入，也会减少动物蛋白的摄入，因为动物蛋白含有支链氨基酸。
I try to fast from a lot of calories, and I also try to fast from a lot of animal protein, which has these branched chain amino acids.
我们知道其中的分子机制。
And we know the molecular mechanisms.
有个叫mTOR的东西，关注长寿的人都知道它。
There's mTOR, which anyone who follows longevity will know about this mTOR.
如果你每餐或每天都吃很多肉，你的mTOR就会一直处于活跃状态。
And if you're eating a ton of meat every meal or every day, your mTOR is gonna be active.
mTOR的作用是帮助细胞分裂、生长和增肌。
And mTOR's role is to help cells divide, grow, build muscle.
很好。
Great.
年轻时你就想这样，想增肌，想好看，想强壮。
That's what you wanna do when you're young, you wanna build muscle, you wanna look good, you wanna be strong.
即使年纪大了，有肌肉减少症，mTOR也是好的。
Even if you're older and you have sarcopenia, mTOR is good.
但我们知道，mTOR活跃的动物比mTOR不那么活跃的动物寿命短。
But we know that animals that have active mTOR live shorter than those that have less active mTOR.
那怎么才能两全其美呢？
So how do you get the benefits of both?
这就是我说的，让mTOR保持低活性，主要吃植物蛋白，别吃太多。
Well, that's what I'm saying is have mTOR switched down, plant protein mainly, don't eat a lot.
mTOR在关闭时对你有益，但你想增肌或跑马拉松之类的时候，可以把它激活。
MTOR will help you when it's switched off, but you can rev it up when you wanna build muscle or or run a marathon or something like that.
你不需要一直处于某一种状态。
You don't always have to be in one state or the other.
说到运动，你的运动理念有改变吗？
Talking about exercise, has your exercise philosophy changed?
在你看来，什么运动方案对长寿最有益？
What is the best exercise protocol for longevity in your opinion?
没有。
No.
变化不大。
It hasn't changed a lot.
我就是一直看到研究反复得出同样的结论，然后人们还在争论最新的那篇。
It's I just keep seeing studies that that say the same thing over and over again, and then people argue about the latest one.
我们知道，最好的健康状态是结合举重训练。
We know that the best health is a combination of weightlifting.
肌肉对激素有好处。
Muscle is good for hormones.
年纪大了以后不容易骨折。
It's good for not breaking bones when you get older.
平衡也很重要。
Balance is important.
另外就是有氧运动，也就是最大摄氧量。
And then the other one is aerobic v o two max.
我们知道最大摄氧量和长寿密切相关。
We know v o two max is correlated with very long life.
所以每周至少三次，每次十分钟，要练到喘不过气来。
And so you do need to lose your breath minimum three times a week, ten minutes.
很少有人会把性爱当作一种锻炼方式。
It's rare that people talk about sex as a way to exercise.
我看到你眼睛都瞪大了。
I see your eyes bulging.
我就等着看你要往哪儿说。
I'm just waiting to see where you're gonna go.
嗯，我前几天在推特上看到一条帖子，是关于一个前任的，不管我们现在怎么称呼他吧，帖子说，哦，我觉得还是不说谁了，但他说，哦，你可以通过做某某事情，每周三次，每次十分钟，让自己喘不过气来十次。
Well, I was looking at a tweet the other day at an ex, whatever we call him now, and it was saying, oh, I think I won't say who it was, but they said, oh, you can lose your breath 10 times for ten minutes three times a week by doing x y z.
然后我就想，从来没人提到过性爱。
And I thought, well, no one ever mentioned sex.
所以如果你有活跃的性生活，那就把它算作你日常或每周长寿计划的一部分吧。
So if you have an active sex life, count that as part of your daily longevity routine or your weekly longevity routine.
好。
K.
但是，足够激烈的性爱也可以算作
But also Sufficiently vigorous sex can be
如果你能激烈地持续十分钟，那对长寿来说是个不错的开始。
If you can go for ten minutes vigorously, that's a good start for longevity.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
有时候，限制因素不仅仅是心血管方面的，但继续说。
There's sometimes restrictors for that that aren't simply cardiovascular, but go on.
嗯，你可以通过跑步机、户外跑步、划船、运动这些来补充。
Well, you can supplement it with, you know, just running on a treadmill, going outside, rowing, sport, all of this stuff.
只要你能判断自己运动量是否足够提升最大摄氧量，那就是你没法像现在这样轻松地聊天。
Just as long as the the way to know if you're exercising enough to build up your VO two max is you shouldn't be able to carry out a conversation easily like this.
对。
Mhmm.
你在喘气。
You're panting.
这就是我的判断标准。
That's my judge.
我需要做更多这样的运动。
I need to do a lot more of it.
现在，我很多时候的有氧运动都是跑步赶飞机。
These days, I tend to do a lot of my exercise aerobically running to catch a plane.
我承认我不是完美的运动榜样，但我知道科学怎么说，那就是力量训练、平衡训练和有氧运动的结合。
I admit that I'm not the perfect role model for exercise, but I do know what the science says, and that is the combination of the the weights, the balance, and the aerobics.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
那第二区呢？
What about zone two?
你还没提到低强度慢速训练。
You haven't mentioned low and slow.
如果你做不了高强度快速训练，低强度慢速训练也可以。
Well, if you can't do fast and quick and hit, low and slow is fine.
走路、活动、站起来。
Walk, move, get up.
我总是在办公室里走动。
I'm always walking around my office.
我用的是站立式办公桌。
I have a standing desk.
我很少坐下来。
I rarely sit down.
所以那种运动非常好，肯定对平衡和整体新陈代谢有好处。
So that kind of exercise is very good, certainly for balance overall metabolism.
所以，是的，我尽量完全不坐着。
So, yeah, I try not to sit at all.
我现在坐着，但白天我很少坐。
I'm sitting now, but I rarely sit during the day.
这是人们觉得我奇怪的事情之一。
It's one of the things people find weird about me.
他们来我办公室，我走来走去，动来动去，还经常嚼口香糖。
They come to my office and I'm pacing, I'm twitching, I'm often chewing gum.
但那和Zone 2不一样。
That's not the same as Zone 2 though.
对吧？
Right?
对。
No.
不是。
No.
需要多做一点才行。
Need to do a little bit more than that.
我喜欢做的运动，比如网球，可以达到那个效果。
What I like to do as a sport, tennis could get you there.
我经常做园艺，所以会搬东西。
I do a lot of gardening, so I'm carrying stuff.
园艺也算运动？
Gardening as a sport?
对。
Yeah.
其实那就是我的运动。
That's my sport, actually.
这是我的大爱好。
It's my big hobby.
有意思。
Interesting.
搬很多重的植物，砌墙，敲敲打打，钻孔，干这些活儿。
Lifting a lot of heavy plants and building walls and hammering and drilling and all that stuff.
对。
Yeah.
还有一点，你知道，皮划艇是我喜欢的，挺好的。
A little bit you know, kayaking is something that I like is good.
我不会喘不过气，但你知道，
I'm not out of breath, but I'm out you know,
我得到了很好的锻炼。
I'm getting a good workout.
睡眠。
Sleep.
还有恢复和休息。
And recovery and rest.
对，是什么呢？
What is Yeah.
关于长寿，最新的数据怎么说？
What is the most up to date data saying around that from a longevity?
还是老样子。
It's still the same.
就是说，你确实需要注意睡眠。
It's you do need to watch your sleep.
如果睡眠质量不好或者睡不够，会影响新陈代谢。
If you're not getting quality sleep or sleeping for that long, it's gonna affect your metabolism.
搞清楚你的身体至少需要多少睡眠。
Figure out how much sleep your body needs at a minimum.
你可以用这些戒指来测。
You can do that using some of these rings.
那个对测睡眠很有用。
It's very good for that.
有些人需要八个小时。
Some people need eight hours.
有些人需要七个小时。
Some people need seven hours.
一般来说，如果你年轻一些，需要的睡眠会更多。
Typically, if you're younger, you need more.
年纪大了的好处就是通常需要的睡眠会少一些。
The good thing about getting older is you need less typically.
但关键还在于睡眠质量。
But it's also about quality.
我睡五个小时也能行，我的HRV还是保持在八九十，因为我进入了深度睡眠。
I can get away with five hours sleep, and my HRV is still in the eighties, nineties because I'm getting deep sleep.
我下午晚些时候不喝咖啡因。
I'm not drinking caffeine late in the afternoon.
我尽量练习放松、冥想和呼吸练习。
I practice as best I can, relaxation, meditation, practices breathing.
这样我就能很快入睡，进入快速眼动和深度睡眠。
And that gets me to sleep and into REM and deep sleep pretty quickly.
我还会吃我伴侣塞丽娜做的补充剂，里面有茶氨酸和其他成分，我自己试验过，能让我很快进入深度睡眠。
I also take a supplement that my partner Serena makes, and it's got L theanine and some other stuff that also I know from my own experiments gets me into deep sleep quickly.
所以根据这些戒指的数据，我的睡眠效率通常在90%左右，有时接近100%。
And so my efficiency is typically according to these rings in the nineties, 90%, sometimes close to a 100.
这样我就能少睡一点，挺好的，因为我经常出差
And then I can get away with less, which is nice because I travel
很多。
a lot.
我觉得这是每个开始用可穿戴设备的人都会学到的重要一课，就是你实际睡眠时间比你想象的少得多。
I think that's a big learning that everybody who starts using a wearable takes away from it, which is you're sleeping way less than you think you are.
比如，你会说，我在床上躺了八个小时。
Like, well, you know, I was in bed for eight hours.
但实际上不是这样。
It's like, no.
你以为你十一点就睡了，但实际上可能快十一点半才睡，而且你一直看书或者看电视到差不多十二点。
You thought that you went to bed eleven, but it was actually sort of 11:30, and you were reading or watching TV until nearly twelve.
然后你的实际睡眠效率可能只有85%。
And then your actual efficiency was maybe 85%.
所以那七个小时就变成了五个小时四十五分钟或者六个小时左右。
So that seven hours has turned into 05:45 or six or something.
对，这真的很明显。
And yeah, it's stark.
我这些年大概在WOOP上记录了1500到2000次睡眠，对吧。
I've got maybe 1,500, maybe 2,000 on WOOP tracked, right, over the years.
而且你总是睡得比你想象中少。
And it it's you're just always sleeping less than you think you are.
如果你没钱买穿戴设备，那就记住一条规则：你睡得比你想象中少。
Like, if you don't have money to buy a wearable, just the rule is you're sleeping less than you think you are.
就是这样。
That's it.
对。
Yeah.
我同意。
I agree.
而且尤其是如果你吃得太晚，或者太晚喝咖啡、茶或抹茶，咖啡因和酒精对睡眠影响很大，不只是压力。
And especially if you're you're eating late, drinking coffee or tea late or matcha, Caffeine and alcohol are big ones for bad sleep, not just stress.
房间太热或者盖太多被子也是很多人常犯的错误。
Having a hot room or too many blankets is another mistake that a lot of people make.
你可以买那种能降温的床垫。
You can get those beds at cool.
Eight Sleep，Eight Sleep，谁要是没用Eight Sleep，那真是原始人了。
Eight Sleep Eight Sleep is anyone that's not using an Eight Sleep, it's medieval.
我知道它们贵，但我觉得没有别的选择。
I understand they're expensive, but there's no one that I've got to do.
对。
Yeah.
他们是节目的合作伙伴什么的，但这跟那没关系。
They're a partner on the show or whatever, but, like, this has got nothing to do with it.
每个试过的人都不敢相信以前没有冷床垫的日子是怎么过的。
Every single person that I've got to try it can't believe that what life was like before they had a a cold.
而且市面上还有更便宜的版本。
And there's other cheaper versions out there.
我相信Eight Sleep是最好的，但还有其他选择。
I'm sure Eight Sleep's the best, but there's there's there's other ones that you can get.
想从床外面给床降温，而床的职责是保持内部温度恒定，这有点像逆水行舟。
Trying to cool your bed from outside of your bed when the job of your bed is to keep the temperature in the bed the same is kind of a little bit like fighting against the tide.
对。
Yeah.
哦，完全正确。
Oh, exactly.
而且你应该每天早上醒来都感觉精神饱满，对一天充满期待。
And you should wake up every morning feeling totally rested, excited about the day.
对。
Mhmm.
如果你醒来的时候，觉得，哦，我需要一杯咖啡。
If you're waking up and like, oh, I need a coffee.
哦，我需要洗个澡。
Oh, I need a shower.
那你可能没有得到你需要的睡眠。
You're probably not getting the sleep that you need.
你提到了压力，把它当作生活方式中的第四大支柱。
You mentioned stress as well as kind of the fourth pillar when it comes to lifestyle.
那具体是怎样的呢？
What does that look like?
作为一位长寿医生，你是怎么看待压力的？
How do you come to think about stress as a longevity doctor?
是的。
Yeah.
比如说，你可以测量皮质醇，或者DHEA皮质醇水平。
Well, you can measure cortisol, for example, or DHEA cortisol levels.
我们都有压力。
We're all stressed.
以前那种围着篝火坐着的日子已经一去不复返了。
The old days of sitting around a campfire are not really there anymore.
我们开车去上班。
We're driving to work.
我们担心收入。
We're worried about income.
所以我们要做的是学会应对日常压力。
And so what we wanna do is learn to to deal with the daily stress.
世界变化比以往任何时候都快。
The world is changing faster than ever.
就我个人而言，我学到的是，不要让生活中的烦恼压垮自己。
So what what I've learned personally is really not to let worries of life get me down.
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