哈佛教授：“我尝试过各种饮食法，这绝对是最差的。”——丹尼尔·利伯曼 - #1137

对吧？

Right?

你没法知道，因为你得考虑到人们吃的其他所有东西、他们的吸烟情况、体育活动，还有他们是不是律师之类的。

You can't know, because you have to account for for, you know, all the other things that people are eating, their smoking, their physical activity, you know, whether or they're, you know, whether they're lawyers or not.

谁知道呢？

Who knows what?

但是当你把所有这些不同的研究结合起来，而且除此之外，还有一些研究，比如在实验室里让人们吃几周地中海饮食，然后测量它对健康某些方面的影响，这些方面有明确的结果，比如胆固醇水平，或者炎症标志物。

But but when you combine all those different and and but there's and then on top of that, there are studies where you can feed people a Mediterranean diet for just a few weeks in a lab, for example, and then measure its effects on on on on aspects of your health that have a outcome, like like a cholesterol level, right, or or or so on and, or markers of inflammation.

所以你把所有这些数据结合起来，机制研究、流行病学研究、前瞻性研究，地中海饮食就显得非常……我不会说它是明显的赢家，但它可能是所有被研究过的饮食中证据最充分的。

And so you combine all those kinds of data together, the mechanistic mechanistic studies, the epidemiological studies, the perspective studies, and the Mediterranean diet comes out as a very you know, a public I wouldn't say it's a clear winner, but it's, you know, it's it's it's it's probably has the most evidence in its favor of any diet that's ever been studied.

我想在流行病学研究中，人们的饮食选择是因人而异的。

I imagine when it comes to the epidemiological studies, people's dietary choices are idiosyncratic.

它们受到他们来自的文化和他们的工作的影响。

They're informed by the culture that they're from and the the job that they have.

你知道，如果你……有一整个行业的私人教练可能吃肉过多，这意味着吃肉的人中私人教练的比例过高，但这也意味着他们有私人教练的生活方式。

You know, if you're there's an entire industry of PTs that are probably overeating meat, which means that you have meat eaters that are disproportionately personal trainers, but that means that they have the lifestyle of a personal trainer.

或者也许有文化因素，你知道，红肉是那些喜欢烧烤的南方佬吃的。

Or perhaps there's something cultural that, you know, red meat is eaten by, dudes that like to barbecue from the Deep South.

也许他们在健康方面还做了别的事，也许他们抽烟或者什么的。

Maybe they're doing other stuff with their health, maybe they're smoking or whatever.

所以，人们选择吃什么、选择哪种饮食，以及那些不在研究范围内的事情，这些选择效应会怎样？

So the, selection effect of what people eat, which diets, and what are the things that aren't under the studies purview?

那这种效应会怎样……

And what does that sort of

影响非常大，非常大。

Huge, huge effect.

比如，你知道，素食者往往也不抽烟。

Like, you know, vegetarians also tend not to smoke.

对吧？

Right?

那么，你怎么把吃素这个事实和你不抽烟这个事实分开呢？

And and so how do you separate the fact of eating a vegetarian diet, the fact that you you're much more likely to smoke?

而且那些倾向于更活跃的人，通常也会吃得更健康。

And people who, tend to be more physically active also tend to eat a healthier diet.

实际上，你知道，大型研究里，比如当你和我去世时，对吧，会有一份死亡证明，写着我们死于某种原因。

In fact, you know, big studies where they get like, when when you and I die, right, there's gonna be a death certificate, right, saying we died of such and such.

可能是癌症、心脏病发作之类的。

And it might be, you know, cancer or a heart attack or whatever.

但导致癌症的又是什么呢？

But then what was it that caused the cancer?

导致心脏病发作的又是什么？

What caused the heart attack?

对吧？

Right?

有很多流行病学家在努力研究这个问题。

And that's there's a there's a bunch of epidemiologists out there trying to try to figure that out.

许多研究在统计上无法将运动和饮食的影响分开，因为运动的人往往吃得也好，对。

And many studies are unable to separate statistically the effects of exercise and diet because people who exercise tend to eat well Mhmm.

反过来也一样。

And vice versa.

所以，这种共变关系——

So so the covariation

用户偏差。

user bias.

对。

Exactly.

所以这种共变关系，我们称之为共变关系，在统计上非常强，很难把这些因素分开。

So the covariation is what we call covariation is so strong, statistically, it's very difficult to separate these things.

那这是不是意味着营养和饮食方面的流行病学研究基本上没什么用？

Does that make epidemiological studies in nutrition and diet largely useless then?

不是。

No.

它们……所以那样想是不对的。

They're they so that's the wrong way to think about it.

流行病学研究虽然不能直接证明因果关系，但它是我们可以也应该使用的众多信息之一。

Epidemiological studies cannot measure cause and effect, but they are one of many forms of of information that we can and should use.

因为，再说一次，对于真正的怀疑论者来说，金标准研究是随机对照试验。

Because, again, you can't I mean, like, again, the gold standard study for a true skeptic is a randomized control study.

但正如我们之前讨论过的，你不可能做一个真正的随机对照试验，然后等上五十年、六十年去看饮食的效果，同时还要控制其他所有变量。

But as we had talked about before, you can't do a proper randomized control study and wait fifty, sixty years for somebody to to see the effects of the diet and control for everything else too.

所以我们得——你知道刺猬和狐狸的比喻吗？

So we we need to be do you know the the the analogy of the hedgehog and the fox?

不知道。

No.

好。

Okay.

有一个著名的文献，来自公元前七世纪，作者是帕罗斯岛的阿尔基洛科斯，他写了一句诗，他是个诗人，有点无聊的诗人。

So there's a famous, piece of paper from the seventh century BC by a guy named Archilagus of Paris, which wrote he he wrote and it's like a frag he's a poet like a boring poet.

但显然，他写的这句诗流传了下来，说的是：狐狸知道很多小事，而刺猬知道一件大事。

But but, apparently, he he wrote this, like, bit of a poem that survived, and it says, the fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

他的意思是，当你追狐狸的时候，它会想尽办法逃跑。

And what he meant by that was that when you chase a fox, it'll do anything to run away.

对吧？

Right?

它会躲起来。

It'll hide.

它还会爬树什么的。

It'll it'll, you know, it'll it'll Climb a tree.

爬树。

Climb a tree.

它爱干嘛干嘛。

It'll do whatever.

对吧？

Right?

你追刺猬，它就缩成一团。

You chase a hedgehog, it just rolls into a ball.

对吧？

Right?

刺猬只会做一件事。

Hedgehogs just do one thing.

英国著名哲学家以赛亚·伯林就用这个比喻来把世界分成刺猬型和狐狸型两类人。

And that analogy was used by a very famous, English philosopher named Isaiah Berlin to think of to kind of divide the world up into hedgehogs and foxes.

所以，刺猬型的人是大思路、大概念型人才。

So so hedgehogs are big idea guys.

比如说，蛋白质就是你的答案。

Like, protein is your answer.

你知道的，肉类就是你的答案。

You know, meat is your answer.

永远不吃肉是你的答案，等等之类的。

Never EatingMeat is your answer, etcetera.

这些就是我所说的刺猬型饮食。

Those are what I call hedgehog diets.

它们就是那种只靠一个核心理念、大刀阔斧改变的饮食法。

They're single idea, big fix diets.

而狐狸型的人则能看到细微差别。

Whereas foxes are the see nuance.

他们能权衡利弊。

They see trade offs.

他们能看到事物的复杂性。

They see complexity.

他们意识到，每当你吃一样东西的时候，你就没吃另一样东西。

They realize that every time you eat one thing, you don't eat something else.

而且我认为，用刺猬式的饮食方法总是行不通的，因为饮食这件事太复杂了。

And and, and and we need to apply I think that, you know, the hedgehog approach to diet is always the wrong way because it's complicated.

每个人的情况都不一样。

People vary.

食物对人体的影响也很复杂。

The effects of foods are complicated.

这里面都有取舍。

There are trade offs.

一旦我们开始过度简化，就难免出错，就连分析科学记录的方式也不例外。

And when we start to oversimplify, we inevitably get things wrong, and that's true for even how we analyze the scientific record.

要是你觉得流行病学数据没用，因为没法验证因果关系，那你就会漏掉很多重要信息。

If we decide, well, epidemiological data, it's just junk because you can't test cause and effect, you're missing important information.

同样地，如果你认为随机对照试验问题很大，因为它们周期太短、缺乏多样性等等，那你也会错过重要的东西。

Just as if you decide, oh, you know, randomized control studies are really problematic because they're too short term and they don't involve variation or whatever, you're also missing something important.

最好的办法就是尽可能多地收集信息，然后把它们整合起来。

The best approach is to look at as much of the information as possible and put it together.

也就是说，如果允许我稍微自夸一下，这也是我写这本书的原因。我努力把这些证据都搜集起来，消化掉，用通俗易懂的语言表达出来，帮助大家理解，因为我觉得我们都需要尝试去回答这些问题。

And that's I mean, if I can be a little, you know, self promoting, that's why I wrote the book because I tried and fed up to take all that evidence and to digest it, put it into kind of plain English, and make it, you know, help people understand that because I think all of us need to try to answer these questions.

换种说法吧。

Let put let me put it another way.

在数百万年的时间里，我们的祖先必须掌握大量的知识才能获取食物。

For millions of years, millions of years, our ancestors, they had to know enormous amount to get their food.

对吧？

Right?

如果你是狩猎采集者，你得知道怎么打猎。

If you're a hunter gatherer, you know, you have to know how to hunt animals.

对吧？

Right?

你得知道它们在哪里，怎么追踪，还有，你知道的，它们会出现在什么样的环境里，以及怎么宰杀它们，还有找植物那些事。

You need to know, you know, where they are and how to track them and how you know, what's the right you know, what environments they're gonna be in and and how to butcher them and all that kind of stuff to find plants.

我是说，我真的跟狩猎采集者一起出去觅食和打猎过。

I mean, I've gone out foraging and hunting with hunter gatherers.

找植物可不是件简单的事。

Finding plants is not a trivial matter.

对吧？

Right?

要知道植物在哪里，知道怎么挖，还要知道它们在不同季节长在哪里。

Finding where the plants are, knowing how to dig for them, and knowing where they are at different seasons.

我们当时必须成为博物学家。

We had to be naturalists.

为了生存，我们必须掌握大量的信息。

We had to know a huge amount of information in order to survive.

现在你我可以走进全食超市或者别的什么超市，比如森宝利或者其他任何一家，面对的是四万种不同的食物。

Now you and I can walk into a Whole Foods or whatever, you know, whatever is Sainsbury or whatever whatever it is, and we're confronted with 40,000 different kinds of food.

我们不再需要知道如何获取食物了。

We don't know how to we don't need to know how to get our food anymore.

我们现在需要知道的是如何选择食物。

We now need to know how to choose our food.

所以我们需要一种不同的知识，你可以甩手不管，让别人告诉你该怎么做，或者你可以自己学着弄清楚你想要什么、你在乎什么、什么对你重要、你的取舍是什么。

So we we need a different kind of knowledge, and and you can you can throw up your hands and just have somebody tell you what to do, or you can try to learn for yourself what you what you want, what you care about, what's important to you, what your trade offs are.

所以我认为我们所有人都需要自我教育，去弄清楚如何选择食物，因为这是现代世界给我们设定的挑战。

So I think all of us need to educate ourselves to to figure out how to choose our food because that's the challenge our modern world has set us.

今天该吃什么这个问题，从进化角度看，是相当新颖的。

The question of what should I eat today evolutionarily is pretty novel.

这完全是全新的。

It's completely novel.

从来没有人问过这个问题。

Nobody ever asked that question.

我的意思是，和我一起工作的人……

I mean, the people I

……面对眼前的东西，因为否则我就会死。

work with what is in front of me because, otherwise, I die.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我在实地工作中合作的那些人。

I mean, the people I work with in in my fieldwork.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我在肯尼亚做了很多工作。

So I've done a lot of work in Kenya.

我最近在卢旺达工作。

I've been working recently in Rwanda.

而且，你知道，有时候，人们会邀请我吃饭，就在我们工作的那个地方。

And, you know, occasionally, people invite me for meals, right, in the in the area where we work.

我们在一个非常偏远的地方工作，实际上我们在肯尼亚一个非常偏远的地方工作了十五年，那里出了很多著名的跑步运动员。

We work in a very remote we've worked for fifteen years in a very remote part of Kenya, actually, where a lot of the famous runners are from.

我甚至都不用问我会吃到什么。

And I don't even have to ask what I'm gonna be served.

总是完全一样的饭菜。

It's always exactly the same meal.

有一道菜叫ugali，就像玉米面做的粥，配上sukumbawiki，其实就是切碎炒过的绿色蔬菜，有时候运气好会有豆子之类的。

You have a dish called ugali, which is like a like a cornmeal kind of porridge, with with either sukumbawiki, which is, which is basically colored greens that have been kinda chopped up and sauteed, or or sometimes if you're lucky with beans or something like that.

就这些。

That's it.

这就是你得到的。

That's what you get.

没人会问晚饭吃什么。

Nobody asks what's for dinner.

他们心里有数，因为他们吃的是自己种的东西。

They know it's because they eat what they grow.

这就是他们手头能弄到的所有食物了。

That's all the food that they have available to them.

我还跟那些狩猎采集者一起出去过呢。

Or I've gone out, you know, with hunter gatherers.

我有幸和狩猎采集者一起生活过一段时间。

I've had the privilege of spending some time with hunter gatherers.

他们可不像我们那样，哎呀，纠结吃什么。

They don't like, well, jeez.

今晚是吃意大利菜还是中餐？或者干脆吃点野味，比如海龟、陆龟，或者是大羚羊？

Tonight, am I gonna have Italian or Chinese or shall I have, you know, shall I have turtle or shall I have, you know, tortoise or shall I have, you know, kudu?

他们什么时候打猎成功或者采集到食物，就什么时候吃。

They eat whenever they manage to hunt and whenever they manage to gather.

就是这样。

That's it.

没有人会问晚餐吃什么。

There's no nobody asks what's for dinner.

他们吃他们种的东西，农民和狩猎采集者都是这样，这就是大多数人的生活，除了像英国国王那样的人。

They they eat what they and all this and farmers and and hunter gatherers, this is that's the way life was for for most people, except, you know, the king of England or whatever.

他可以选他想吃的东西。

He got to choose what he wanted to eat.

现在我们处在一个完全奇怪、古怪的现代环境中。

And now we're in this completely weird, bizarre, modern environment.

而且，毫不意外，我们很难适应，因为我们不仅不知道该吃什么，还面对很多真正糟糕的东西。

And and surprise, surprise, we have a hard time because not only do we not know what to eat, we're also confronted with a lot of really bad stuff.

我是说，就像我之前说的，典型的美国超市有4万种不同的食物。

I mean, typical as I said before, the typical American supermarket has 40,000 different kinds of food.

4万种。

40,000.

这真是有点不可思议。

It's kind of amazing.

而且其中超过50%是超加工食品，设计得极具吸引力、让人上瘾、方便、便宜，虽然价格现在有点上涨。

And over 50% of that is ultra processed, designed to be highly appealing, addictive, convenient, inexpensive, although that that's going up a bit.

那我们该怎么应对呢？

And and and how are we supposed to how are we supposed to cope?

我们从未进化出应对这些的机制。

We we're not we're not we never evolved the mechanisms, to handle that.

回到地中海饮食，这种饮食有什么特别之处？它似乎比其他饮食更有效，背后的机制是什么？

Going back to the Mediterranean diet, what is it about that diet that seems to what what's the mechanistic reason for why it seems to outperform others?

可能有很多原因。

There's probably a number of reasons.

再说一次，没有单一的原因。

There's, again, there's no one reason.

一个原因是它倾向于全谷物。

So one is that it tends to be whole grain.

对吧？

Right?

所以，当你把面粉精制的时候，也就是去掉外层和胚芽，这样就把很多蛋白质和膳食纤维都去掉了。

So you so when you take, flour and you refine it, right, you remove the the outer layers and you remove the germ, you're removing a lot of the protein and you're removing a lot of the fiber.

它含有健康的脂肪比例。

It's, it's it has a healthy balance of fat.

当然，它之所以出名是因为橄榄油，这是一种单不饱和脂肪酸。

So, of course, it's famous for olive oil, which is a monounsaturated fat.

如果你想的话，我们可以聊聊这个。

We can talk about that if you want.

单不饱和脂肪酸与许多健康益处有关。

And monounsaturated fats are associated with a lot of health benefits.

里面有很多水果和蔬菜。

There's a lot of fruit, a lot of vegetables.

地中海饮食通常包含鱼类，而鱼类富含Omega-3脂肪酸。

Mediterranean diet often has fish in it, and fish has these omega three fatty acids.

所以，它是各种健康营养素的组合，同时避免了很多东西，比如添加糖和很多其他不好的成分。

So it's the constellation of of nutrients that are healthy plus an absence of a lot of stuff like added sugar and a lot

那么，它主要排除了哪些东西呢？

of So what what are the things that it eliminates most?

嗯，地中海饮食通常不会含有太多添加糖。

Well, tends not you Mediterranean diet tends not to have a lot of added sugar.

对吧？

Right?

真正的地中海饮食通常不会含有那么多糖。

Tends not to have that much a proper Mediterranean.

你定义的地中海饮食，可以涵盖地中海地区的各种饮食，但营养学家定义的那种标准地中海饮食，并不一定是地中海地区人们日常吃的。

What you define as a Mediterranean diet is you can be can go all over the what what the what the Mediterranean with a capital m, capital d, right, which is what's been defined by, by the by the nutritionists, isn't necessarily what people always eat in the Mediterranean.

比如我在意大利就吃过很多高碳水化合物的晚餐。

I've spent I mean, a lot of really carb rich dinners in in Italy, for example.

但是，它通常不含添加糖，不含太多精制碳水化合物，不含太多饱和脂肪，而且食物多样，富含植物化学物质，这些物质对健康有益，还有很多抗氧化剂等等，同时红肉的量也不多。

But, but it, you know, tends not to have added sugar, tends not to have a lot of refined carbohydrates, tends not to have a lot of saturated fat, tends to be diverse and rich in in in phytochemicals that are healthy and, you know, have a lot of antioxidants and things like that, tends not to have too much red meat.

所以，这是一组被证实整体相当健康的食物组合。

So it's a it's a mixture of things that have in total been shown to to be reasonably healthy.

那它是不是最理想的饮食方案呢？

Now is it a is it a is it like an optimal diet?

它完美吗？能保证让人拥有完美的健康状态吗？

Is it perfect and will guarantee perfect health?

不是的。

No.

没有哪种饮食是完美的。

No diet is optimal.

但它确实被证明能有效预防体重增加，并降低多种疾病的风险吗？

But is it does it has it been shown to be effective for preventing weight gain and for reducing your risk of a wide range of diseases?

当然。

Absolutely.

这在多大程度上取决于生活方式呢？

How much is it the lifestyle?

我听说过地中海饮食中社交方面的重要性，还有类似的事情。

I've heard about the importance of the sociality around the Mediterranean diet and stuff like that.

那有没有被单独区分出来研究过？

Has that been separated out?

你明白我在说什么吧。

You know what I'm talking about.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这又是很难做到的。

I mean, that's again, it's very hard to do that.

但是，比如说，我提到的那个西班牙研究，PREDIMED研究，通过随机分配那些生活方式可能相似的人，他们基本上是在……

But but for example, that that study I mentioned, the Spanish study, the predimed study, I mean, that that essentially by randomizing people who all presumably had similar lifestyles, They were were coming out on

晚上九点在街角和朋友喝咖啡。

the street corner having a coffee at 9PM at night there with their friends.

饮食的两个对照组可能是一样的。

Both arms of the diet were probably the same.

所以那个研究，比如说，就控制了那个变量。

So so that so that study, for example, controlled for that.

但是当然，健康和长寿不仅仅取决于饮食。

So but, of course, there's more to to health and longevity than just your diet.

那蓝色区域饮食呢？

What about blue zone diets?

天哪。

Oh my god.

别让我提那个。

Don't get me started on that one.

我是说，蓝色区域挺有意思的。

I mean, blue zones are fun.

你看。

I mean, look.

关于蓝色区域饮食有很多可以说的。

There's a lot to say about blue zone diet.

首先，你知道，它有点像地中海饮食，但肉类更少。

The first is, again, you know, if you it's kind of like a Mediterranean diet but with even less meat.

如果你看看他们推荐的内容。

And if you if you look at what they prescribes.

你知道吗？

You know?

但它也建议不吃早餐。

And but it also prescribes skipping breakfast.

它告诉你要多社交。

It tells you to be social.

它告诉你要留点剩饭。

It tells you to not finish your plate.

你知道，这里面有一些社交方面的因素。

You know, there's some social aspects to it.

好。

K.

但我觉得，如果你看这个饮食方案的推荐，特别是营养方面，其实和地中海饮食差不太远。

But but what's I find and, you know, if you look at the the the the the sort of prescription of the diet, especially nutritionally, it's kind of what a lot of you know, it's not far off from the Mediterranean diet.

我不知道有没有什么高质量的研究，把蓝色区域饮食和地中海饮食做过比较。

I don't know of any really good high quality studies for the Blue Zones diet compared to, say, the Mediterranean diet.

但我觉得蓝色区域饮食有趣的地方在于它的宣传方式，因为它被宣传和营销成一种能让你活到100岁的饮食。

But what I find amusing about the Blue Zones diet is how it's been advertised because it's advertised and marketed as a diet that'll help you live to be a 100.

而这就是我开始担心的地方，因为即使你看蓝色区域的数据，比如那些所谓的蓝色区域，地球上那五个地区。

And that's where I begin to have some concerns because even if you look at the data for the Blue Zones, like, there's these supposed blue zones, these these five regions on the planet.

它们

Where

在哪里？

are they?

让我想想。

Let's see.

其中一个在哥斯达黎加的尼科亚半岛。

One of them is in the Nicoya Peninsula Of Costa Rica.

有一个是撒丁岛上的一个小村庄。

One's a little kind of little village in Sardinia.

就是撒丁岛上的一个小地方。

It's like a little area in Sardinia.

有一个是地中海的一个岛屿。

One is an island in the Mediterranean.

我忘了那个岛的名字了。

I've forgotten the name of the island.

一个是冲绳，另一个是加利福尼亚的洛马琳达，就在洛杉矶外面。

One is, Okinawa, and the other is Loma Linda, California, right outside of LA.

好的。

Okay.

那个我还真不知道。

I didn't know that one more.

这就是五个蓝色区域。

Those are the five Blue Zones.

这些地方背后的理念是，据说这些地区活到百岁的人数是其他地方的两倍。

And and the idea behind these are these are supposedly areas where a hot twice as many people live to be centenarians.

他们能活到100岁。

They live to be 100 years old.

所以这个理念就是，如果你像这些地区的人那样饮食，你也能活到100岁。

And so the idea is if you eat like the people in these areas, you too are gonna live to be 100 years old.

不过，这其中有几个问题。

Now there's some problems with this.

首先，即使你相信这些数据，认为这些地区的百岁老人比例更高，但实际上百岁老人的比例非常小。

The first is that even if you believe the data that that these these regions have a have a higher percentage of centenarians, it turns out that the percentage of centenarians is tiny.

比如，每1万人中有6个百岁老人，而美国是每1万人中有3个。

So it's like it's like six people out of 10,000 as opposed to in The United States where it's three people out of 10,000.

基础率太低，所以微小的变化就会导致比例的巨大差异。

The base rate's so low that small changes are massive proportions.

这些是统计上的异常值。

These are statistical outliers.

所以基本上，如果你不是统计上的异常值——而我们大多数人不是——那这就跟你没关系了。

So you basically have to if you if you're not a statistical outlier, which most of us are not, it's irrelevant.

这其实没什么意义，基本上就是统计上的胡扯。

It's not a very it's statistical nonsense, basically.

其次，牛津有个人。

Secondly, there's a guy in Oxford.

他是牛津的人口统计学家。

He's a, demographer at Oxford.

我在想他的名字。

I'm trying to remember his name.

我觉得他叫索尔·纽曼。

Saul Newman, I think his name is.

他发表了一篇非常有意思的论文。

He's published this really fascinating paper.

他深入研究了这些蓝色区域，结果发现这些地方只有百分之十八的人真的有出生证明。

He did a deep dive onto these blue zones and found out that only eighteen percent of the people in these blue zones actually had birth certificates.

所以我们甚至不知道这些人是谁。

So we don't even know who these people are.

他们只是自己报告年龄，而这些地区，所以他……

They just self report their age, and these are areas so and he

你是说，蓝色地带热潮很大程度上可能是因为人们根本没有登记自己的年龄？

telling me are you telling me that a good chunk of the Blue Zone fervor could have been around the fact that people just didn't register how old they were?

没错。

Correct.

或者也可能是保险欺诈。

Or it could be insurance fraud.

我是说，我也不知道。

I mean, I have no idea.

对。

Yeah.

就是这样。

Exactly.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

其实你上网就能查到。

It's just You can get online.

你可以读所罗门的论文。

You can read Solomon's paper.

那篇论文读起来很有意思。

It's hilarious paper to read.

不过你也可以换个角度想。

But also think about it this way.

比如，在撒丁岛有个小地方。

Like, he there's this, like, little area in Sardinia.

如果你打开蓝色区域的地图，点一下，你会看到撒丁岛。

If if you go on if you click on the Blue Zones map, there's this, like you know, think about Sardinia.

你知道，撒丁岛是个椭圆形的岛屿。

It likes you know, it's an oval shaped island.

对吧？

Right?

然后在这个岛的西边有一小块区域。

And there's this little area on the on the western side.

地图上有一个小小的蓝色区域。

There's a little blue, you know, zone on the map.

对吧？

Right?

在那个小区域里，住着很多百岁老人。

In that little area, you have all these centenarians.

你告诉我，如果往北或往南走30英里，人们的饮食习惯就完全不同了。

Now tell me that if you gotta go, like, 30 miles north or 30 miles south, that people have totally different diets.

那为什么偏偏在这个小地方，他们都是百岁老人呢？

And it's like, so why in this little spot are they all centenarians?

而就在往北或往南20英里的地方，他们却不是。

And just 20 miles north or 20 miles south, they're not.

这有点可疑。

It's kinda suspicious.

那蓝色区域的支持者对此怎么解释？

What are the what is the Blue Zone proponent explanation for that?

我觉得他没回答。

I don't think he's answered.

我不

I don't

觉得他……他是男的吗？

think he's he's Is it a guy?

是的。

Yes.

一个叫……他叫什么来着？

Guy named, what's his name?

韦特纳？

Wetner?

韦特纳？

Wetner?

我记不清了。

I can't remember.

他曾经是《国家地理》的记者，对这个特别感兴趣，然后想出了怎么把这套东西商业化。

He's a he was a he was a was a National Geographic reporter who who got really excited by this and figured out how to market all this.

但你知道，最有趣的蓝色区域之一是加利福尼亚州的洛马琳达。

But he you know, the one of the most interesting blue zones is Loma Linda, California.

你知道谁住在加利福尼亚州的洛马琳达吗？

Do you know who lives in Loma Linda, California?

为什么洛马琳达会成为蓝色区域？

What why Loma Linda is a blue zone?

因为很明显，他们不是那种吃传统食物的农民，对吧。

Because, obviously, they're not little, you know, peasanty, you know, farmers eating their traditional foods.

不是。

No.

他们是基督复临安息日会的信徒。

They're Seventh day Adventists.

基督复临安息日会的信徒不吸烟。

And the Seventh day Adventists don't believe in smoking.

他们相信锻炼身体。

They believe in exercise.

他们中的许多人都是素食主义者。

They're you know, they believe that they're they're many of them are vegetarians.

他们相信这一点。

They believe that.

他们不相信锻炼。

They don't believe in exercise.

不。

No.

他们确实相信锻炼。

They do believe in exercise.

他们认为上帝赐予了我们身体。

They they believe that you you that god gave us our bodies.

我们的身体是神圣的，作为基督徒，我们有责任好好照顾上帝赐予的身体。

Our body is a sacred thing and that it's our responsibility as, as as as as Christians to to take good care of our god given body.

所以这是一种生理神学。

And so a physiological theology.

很好。

Very good.

是的。

It is.

是的。

It is.

所以，你知道，他们不抽烟。

And and so, you know, they don't smoke.

他们锻炼身体。

They exercise.

他们很多人都是素食主义者。

They many of them are vegetarians.

他们做了所有这些事情，你知道，大多数医生都会告诉你应该这样做。

They have they do all these sorts of things that the you know, most doctors will tell you is what you should do.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

他们有很大比例的人活得很长。

They have a high percentage of people who live

他们吃的东西和撒丁岛的人一样吗？

in eat the same thing as the people in Sardinia?

不。

No.

当然不是。

Of course not.

他们是

They're

对，吃这个。

eating Right.

那这蓝区到底是怎么回事？

So what the fuck what what's going on with this Blue Zone thing?

说蓝区饮食不是一种饮食，这么说公平吗？

Is it fair is it fair to say that the Blue Zone diet isn't a diet?

它并没有做到它所说的那样。

It doesn't it's it doesn't do what it says it does.

嗯，我是说，如果你读《蓝色 zones》这本书，它确实告诉你要吃什么。

Well, I mean, it does if you read the Blue Zones book, it tells you what to eat.

它说每天至少吃半杯豆子。

Tells you to eat at least a half a cup of beans a day.

它说多吃蔬菜。

It tells you lots of vegetables.

它说这个不要吃太多，那个也不要吃太多。

It tells you not to eat too much of this and not too much of that.

所以它有一些参数，你知道的，但它不是一个严格定义的饮食。

So there it's got some it's got some parameters, you know, but it's not a it's not a it's not a rigidly defined diet.

而且，那些建议也不是完全离谱，但再说一次，它有点被过度推销了。

And, you know, the the suggestions aren't totally crazy, but they're again, it's it's kinda oversold.

我的意思是，比如，我书里反复提到的一个观点是，有很多人在告诉我们所谓的“最佳饮食”。

I mean, like, one of the one of my you know, the the one of the refrains from and I I know, that I keep going back to in my book is that there are a lot of people telling telling us optimal diets.

你知道吗？

You know?

我已经开始讨厌“最佳”这个词了。

And I have come to hate the word optimal.

如果你想惹我生气，就说你的

If you wanna piss me off, say your

饮食触发词。

diet trigger word.

那是我的触发词。

It's my trigger word.

如果你告诉我你的饮食是最优的，首先得问，这对你来说最优，还是对我而言最优？

If tell me your diet is optimal, first of all, is it optimal for you or optimal for me?

因为你我并不一样。

Because you and I are not the same.

对吧？

Right?

我们的基因不同。

We have different genetics.

我们的背景不一样。

We have different background.

你还年轻，身体也壮。

You're young and strong.

你的肌肉量肯定比我多，不过我可能比你跑得快。

You have a lot more muscle, you know, but I'm probably faster than you.

谁说得准呢？

Who knows?

嗯，可能突然吧。

Well, probably suddenly.

但是，我已经62岁了。

But, I'm 62.

你大概年轻得多。

You're probably a lot younger.

你知道，你更担心心脏病、阿尔茨海默症、关节炎，还是这个那个的？

You know, is is are you are you more worried about heart disease or Alzheimer's or or arthritis or this or that or the other?

你更关心环境之类的吗？

Are you are you do you care more about the environment, etcetera?

其实，根本不存在什么最优。

There's, you there's no such thing as optimal.

这不过是营销手段罢了。

And and it's it's kind of a it's just marketing.

所以我现在很反感那些声称自己饮食最优的人，因为那只是营销。

And and we and I and so I I now react against people who claim their diet is optimal because it's just marketing.

那是推销术。

It's salesmanship.

不是科学。

It's not science.

换个话题，你有没有注意到有些网站买东西特别容易，而有些却难上加难？

In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder?

我年轻的时候，得走十英里路才能到当地的商店。

Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to a local store.

你不是比我年轻吗？

Aren't you younger than me?

对。

Yeah.

但我爸因为酒驾被抓过。

But my dad got a DUI.

总之，现实是大多数企业的网站都做得不对。

Anyway, the reality is most businesses just get the website wrong.

如果你的网站设置得乱七八糟，你会损失大量销售额，这就是为什么我非常喜欢Shopify。

And if your setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Shopify.

他们支撑了美国10%的电子商务，包括Gymshark、Skims、Aloe和Neutonic等品牌。

They power 10% of all ecommerce in The United States, including brands like Gymshark, Skims, Aloe, and Neutonic.

因为在将浏览者转化为买家方面，他们是最顶尖的。

Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, are best in class.

他们的结账流程平均比其他平台好36%，使用Shop Pay还能将转化率提高50%。

Their checkout's 36% better on average compared to other platforms, and with Shop Pay, can boost conversions by 50%.

所以，升级你的业务，使用Shopify，获得我们Neutonic使用的完全相同的结账体验。

So upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Neutonic with Shopify.

你可以通过点击下方描述中的链接或访问shopify.com/modernwisdom注册免费试用期。

You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom.

网址是shopify.com/modernwisdom。

That's shopify.com/modernwisdom.

好的。

Okay.

咱们再惹恼一些人吧。

Let's piss off some more people.

那低碳高脂肪呢？

What about low carb, high fat?

哦，天哪。

Oh, boy.

这次我会不会惹上大麻烦？

Am I gonna get in serious trouble after this one?

会。

Yes.

会。

Yes.

会。

Yes.

我们都觉得没问题。

We both thought it's fine.

低碳水，高脂肪。

Low carb, high fat.

嗯，再说，以前有阿特金斯减肥法。

Well, again, there Used to be Atkins.

现在流行生酮饮食。

Now it's keto.

对。

Yeah.

我是说，你看。

I mean, look.

这都取决于你的目标是什么。

Both depends what your goals are.

对吧？

Right?

事实证明，如果你想减肥，比如说，你可以通过低碳水饮食减肥，也可以通过低脂肪饮食减肥。

It turns out if you wanna if your goal is to lose weight, for example, you can lose weight on a low carb diet, and you can lose weight on a low fat diet.

确实，人们通常通过低碳水饮食比低脂饮食减掉的体重会稍微多一点。

It is true that people tend to lose a little bit more weight on low carb diets than low fat diets.

但事实上，我是那篇关于碳水化合物胰岛素模型的重大论文的合著者之一，那篇论文最近发表在《美国临床营养学杂志》上。

But the but, and in fact, I'm one of the coauthors of the carbohydrate insulin model big paper that was recently American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

那我得恭喜你。

So I've Congratulations.

我已经把我的名字用血签上了，我相信低碳水饮食背后的生物学原理。

I've put my I've signed my name in blood on the and I believe in the biology behind, the low carb diet.

所以我们可以……

So we can Can

你能用通俗的话解释一下吗？

you explain that in layman's terms?

当然可以。

We we can.

但在那之前，让我先说明一点：几乎任何不是垃圾食品的饮食都能帮助人减肥，但难的是坚持下来。

But let's before we do, let me let me just get to this, which is that pretty much any noncrap diet can help somebody lose weight, and the hard part is to sustain it.

所以你需要区分有效性和实际效果。

And so you need to make a distinction between efficacy and effectiveness.

有效性基本上是指在理想情况下饮食的效果如何。

So efficacy is basically how well a diet works when the perfect world.

对吧？

Right?

当没有作弊，你完全按照要求吃，并且能坚持很长时间，你知道，那是完美的。

When there's no cheating and you eat exactly what you're told and you can do it for a long time and and, you know, it's perfect.

实际效果是指在现实世界中它如何运作。

Effectiveness is how it works in the real world.

事实证明，低碳水饮食在减肥方面的有效性高于低脂饮食。

And it turns out that low carb diets have this higher efficacy for weight loss than low fat diets.

这是就减肥而言，但它们的实际效果，因为人们很难坚持，嗯，

This is for weight loss, but their effectiveness, because people have a hard time sustaining them Mhmm.

只是稍微大一点。

Is only slightly larger.

对。

Right.

所以

So

如果你能做到，你可能会表现很好，但要做到这一点，难度会更大一些。

If you could do it, you might perform very well, but being able to do it, the difficulty is somewhat harder.

这很难。

It's hard.

这意味着它抵消了部分收益。

Which means that it mitigates some of those gains.

我是说，我试过。

I mean, I tried it.

我是说，我试过。

I mean, I tried it.

我试过每一种，每一种都试过。

I've tried every I've tried every single one of these.

顺便说一句，我在为这本书做研究时，做了比你所做的更科学得多的事情。

By the way, I I have done a much more science equivalent of what you did in the research for this book.

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些我都试过。

I've tried all of these.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我试过阿特金斯饮食法，那很难，因为我有强烈的碳水化合物渴望。

I mean, I tried the I tried an Atkins diet, and it was hard because I I had intense carbohydrate cravings.

而且我是个跑步者，你知道，跑步者不吃碳水化合物很难。

And I'm a runner, and, you know, it's hard to be a runner and not eat carbs.

饥饿感是

The hunger is

很强烈的。

rough.

对。

Yeah.

我是说，我就是不太喜欢那种饮食方式，其实我对很多节食计划都不太感冒。

I mean, I just I just I didn't like it that much, but I didn't like a lot of the diets that much.

不过咱们来聊聊低碳水化合物饮食背后的生物学原理吧，因为真的挺有意思的。

But let's let's go into the biology behind low carb diets because because it it's really interesting.

所以当你吃东西的时候，你摄入的食物里，当然有一部分是碳水化合物。

So when you eat food, your, some of that food, of course, is carbohydrate.

碳水化合物进入身体后会被分解，其中一部分变成葡萄糖，这是两种主要糖分之一。

And carbohydrates, your body breaks down into, some of it into glucose, which is the bay one of the two major kinds of sugar.

另一种是果糖和葡萄糖。

There's fructose and glucose.

果糖主要来自水果。

Fructose is what you get from fruit.

它其实更甜一些。

It's kind of it's it's sweeter.

葡萄糖是那种更淀粉质的、你知道的，不那么甜的糖。

Glucose is the kind of more starchy, you know, less sweet form of sugar.

所以它会直接进入你的血液。

And so that and that goes goes straight into your bloodstream.

葡萄糖，你的身体只能处理非常非常小的范围，因为太多是有毒的。

Glucose is your body can only handle a very, very small range of glucose because too much is toxic.

事实上，我觉得普通人整个血液里大约只有一茶匙半的葡萄糖。

In fact, I think average human being has about a teaspoon and a half of glucose in their entire bloodstream.

如果超过这个量，你就有麻烦了。

And if it goes above that, you're in trouble.

你会变得高血糖，然后你可能会陷入严重的医疗问题。

You become hyperglycemic, and you can go into you can have serious medical problems.

所以我们的身体对葡萄糖非常敏感。

So our body is super sensitive to glucose.

所以当你吃一顿含有葡萄糖的饭时，你的血糖水平会上升。

So when you eat a meal and it has glucose in it, your your blood sugar level goes up.

因为身体必须把血糖维持在一个很窄的范围内，所以你的胰腺会释放一种叫做胰岛素的激素。

And because the body has to maintain a very tight range of glucose, you your pancreas releases a hormone called insulin.

对。

Mhmm.

胰岛素基本上就是你的生长激素。

And insulin is your basically, it's your growth hormone.

它是一种让你储存东西的激素。

It's the hormone that causes you to store stuff.

所以胰岛素让你的细胞吸收那些葡萄糖，这样血糖水平就会降下来。

So insulin causes your your your cells to take up that glucose so the levels go down.

同时，胰岛素还告诉你的细胞要保留能量。

Now insulin also tells your cells to hold on to energy.

这样就能防止你的细胞释放脂肪，因为你把能量储存为脂肪。

So so to prevent your cells from releasing releasing fat because you you store that energy as fat.

你的细胞会把葡萄糖转化成脂肪。

Your cells turn the glucose into fat.

不好意思。

Excuse me.

所以当你吃低碳水化合物饮食时，你的胰岛素水平会保持较低，这意味着你储存的脂肪更少，也不会囤积脂肪，这对你减肥很有帮助。

So when you are on a low carb diet, you keep your insulin levels low, and that means that you're storing less and also you're not holding on to that fat, and that helps you.

而且，从生物学角度来看，原理其实挺简单的。

And and that can and so so the biology is pretty simple.

我觉得这个逻辑应该很清晰了。

And I guess it's pretty clear.

不过情况会更复杂一些，因为还有另一种叫胰高血糖素的激素，这让事情变得更复杂了。

Though it gets more complicated because there's another hormone called glucagon, which makes it more complicated.

体力活动也会影响这些过程。

Physical activity affects things.

你知道的，事情从来都不会那么简单，碳水化合物-胰岛素模型也不例外。

There's you know, there's nothing is ever simple, and and and the carbohydrate insulin model is is no exception.

所以，碳水化合物-胰岛素模型背后是有基本的逻辑支撑的。

So so there's real basic logic behind the the the carbohydrate insulin model.

问题是，人们一旦开始这些低碳水饮食，就很难坚持下去。

The problem is that when people go on these low carb diets, they're hard to sustain.

很多人坚持不了太久，碳水摄入量就会慢慢回升。

And a lot of people can't maintain them for that long, and their carbohydrate levels creep up.

这样一来，饮食计划就泡汤了。

And and, and and that's the end of the diet.

但低脂饮食也能减肥，而且很多人已经做到了。

But you can also lose weight on a low fat diet, and plenty of people have.

我都不知道低脂高碳饮食还存在。

And I didn't even know that low fat, high carb diets were a thing.

这个我还没试过。

That's one that I haven't tried.

哦，其实有很多这样的饮食法。

Oh, so so there are plenty.

我的意思是，美国一些最流行的饮食法，比如普利特金饮食法和奥尼什饮食法，都是低脂的。

I mean, I mean, they were the some of the biggest diets in the country were, you know, the Pritikin diet, the Ornish diet.

有好多呢。

There's a whole bunch of

这些听起来像是《指环王》里的奇幻种族。

These sound like fantasy races from a Lord of the Rings

DASH代表的是“防治高血压的饮食方法”。

DASH stands for dietary approaches to stop hypertension.

它最初是为了……

So it was originally developed for

血压。

Blood pressure.

为了降血压，但结果发现它也是一种低脂饮食。

For blood pressure, but it turns out to be a low fat diet.

而且它实际上可能是研究第二多的饮食，仅次于地中海饮食。

And it's actually probably the second most studied diet after, after Mediterranean.

它研究得很充分。

It's very well studied.

这个饮食方案是由美国国立卫生研究院开发的，而且关于DASH饮食，有很多科学依据，还有大量的随机对照研究。

So it was developed by NIH, and there's a lot of scientific there are a of randomized controlled studies for the DASH diet.

而且坚持DASH饮食的人，顺便说一句，书里也提到了，确实会减肥。

And people who stick to the DASH diet, which which, by way, tried in the book, do lose weight.

没错。

Absolutely.

他们可以吃碳水，也确实在吃碳水。

They can and do carb.

当然，一个低脂高碳饮食的人，胰岛素水平肯定会飙升。

Surely, somebody that's on a low fat, higher carb diet is going to be ripping their insulin levels

升得更高。

up more.

不是的。

No.

因为这取决于你吃的是哪种碳水。

Because it depends on the kind of carb you eat.

因为碳水化合物有好有坏。

Because there are good carbs and there are bad carbs.

所以如果你吃精制碳水化合物，你知道，很多含糖量高的东西，很多垃圾食品，你的胰岛素水平就会飙升。

So if you eat refined carbs and, you know, lots of stuff with lots of sugar, lots of crap, your insulin level is gonna go sky high.

但如果你吃未精制的碳水化合物，对吧？

But if you eat unrefined carbs right?

如果你吃，我是说，如果我吃很多羽衣甘蓝，你知道，不管是什么，我的血糖水平会飙升吗？

If you eat I mean, if I mean, if I eat lots of kale and, you know, whatever, am I is that my my glucose level is gonna go sky high?

当然不会。

Of course not.

因为羽衣甘蓝里的所有纤维会减缓消化速度。

Because all the fiber in that kale is gonna is gonna slow the rate of digestion.

所以有很多含有碳水化合物的食物，它们的升糖指数并不高。

There's not so so there are plenty of foods that that are that have carbohydrate that are not high glycemic.

所以认为所有碳水化合物都有害，会让你血糖水平高得离谱，这种想法是不对的。

So the idea that all carbs are poisonous and cause you to raise your your your your your blood sugar levels ridiculously is just not true.

我的意思是，如果真是那样的话，因为你想啊。

I mean, if that were the case because think about it.

在人类历史的大部分时间里，人们主要吃碳水化合物。

For most of human existence, people have eaten mostly carbs.

地中海、亚洲等地的农耕饮食大多以碳水化合物为主。

All those farming diets in the Mediterranean and Asia elsewhere are mostly carbs.

他们吃玉米。

They're eating corn.

他们吃米饭。

They're eating rice.

他们吃小麦等等。

They're eating wheat, etcetera.

但直到最近，这些人中很少有人肥胖或超重。

But until recently, none of those people or very few of them were obese or or or or overweight.

所以这些饮食，你可以吃高碳水饮食，只要它富含纤维，糖分不高，而且不是高度精制的。

So these diets you can eat a a high carb diet if it's high in fiber and not high in sugar and not highly refined.

对。

Mhmm.

这些不是高血糖指数的饮食。

These are not high glycemic diets.

我在卢旺达和肯尼亚工作的地区，人们饮食中至少65%是碳水化合物。

The area in in Rwanda where I work, right, and the area in Kenya where I work, people are getting at least 65 of their diet from carbs.

至少65%。

At least 65%.

那是高碳水饮食。

That's a high carb diet.

我敢打赌，你在那个地区找不到一个超重或肥胖的人。

And I dare you to find somebody with overweight or obesity in the area.

他们不存在。

They don't exist.

完全没有。

There's none of that.

他们不在，周围没有。

They don't they're not around.

这有多少是因为碳水化合物的类型，又有多少是因为卡路里的数量？

How much of that is because of the type of carbs, and how much of that is just because of the number of calories?

嗯，他们吃了很多卡路里。

Well, they're eating a lot of calories.

这是两者的结合。

It's it's a combination.

这跟他们吃的食物种类有关。

It's it's it's the kind of foods they're eating.

比如，当我去之前提到的南迪山吃饭时，我们有Magali，还有Sukumawiki和豆子。

So they're they're eating, for example, when I go have that that meal I described earlier in the Nandi Hills, right, where we have some Magali, but we also have Sukumawiki, we have beans.

这些都是高纤维、低升糖指数的食物。

These are all high highly fibrous, low low glycemic foods.

总的来说，这是一种健康的饮食。

They're it's a generally healthy diet.

他们身体也很活跃，这也有帮助。

They're also very physically active, and that helps.

当你保持身体活动时，运动之所以能帮助人们预防体重增加，原因不仅仅是摄入和消耗的热量平衡。

And when you're physically active so one of the reasons physical activity helps people prevent weight gain, it's not just how many calories are going in versus out.

当人们非常活跃时，这会改变肌肉对胰岛素的敏感度，也就是说，对于同样分量的碳水化合物，你实际分泌的胰岛素会更少。

But when people are very physically active, it changes the insulin sensitivity of their muscles so that they're, so that they're you you actually produce less, you actually produce less insulin for a given amount of carbohydrate.

所以，事情从来都不是简单的。

So, again, nothing is simple.

而且，如果我们试图过度简化问题，就会陷入麻烦。

And and and and and when we try to oversimplify, we we get into trouble.

我希望事情能简单点，但再说一次，我主要想强调的是：请停止把复杂的多因素问题过度简化。

And and and and I wish it were simple, but, again, one of the major arguments that I'm trying to make is that as please it's a it's a plea to stop oversimplifying complex multifactorial things.

我们都得稍微多学习一些，这样才能理清市面上那些五花八门的饮食说法，看清那些想靠各种 diets 从我们身上赚钱的人到底在搞什么名堂。

We just all need to educate ourselves a little bit so that we can help make sense of all the diversity out there and all the different people out there trying to make money off of us with their various different diets.

实际情况根本不像我们被告诉的那样运作。

It it just doesn't work the way, we've been told it does.

我明白人们不应该把事情搞得太复杂或太简单，但到目前为止，我们已经聊了大概五种饮食法了，它们好像都在指向相反的方向。

I understand that people shouldn't be trying to overcomplicate or oversimplify things, but the degree of the the even just so far, we've done, like, five diets or something, and all of them kind of feel like they're pointing in the opposite direction.

你说过，低脂饮食之所以有效，是因为它不会让胰岛素飙升，但高碳水饮食只要吃对碳水也能有效。

You said, well, low fat can work because of what it doesn't do to insulin in terms of spiking insulin, but high carb can work as long as you eat the right kinds of carbs.

植物性饮食也有效，但你需要摄入蛋白质，不过蛋白质来源不重要。

And the plant based stuff that works, but you do need to get some protein, but it doesn't matter where it's from.

而且，你知道，有些人在纯肉饮食上感觉很好。

And, you know, some people feel good on the carnivore thing.

所以，我理解为什么人们会有那种不适感，那种不知所措的感觉。

But so it's I understand why people feel this, like, malaise, this degree of overwhelm.

他们会想，好吧。

They're like, okay.

我们不应该把事情简单化。

We shouldn't be oversimplifying it.

最优的就是你的俄罗斯卧底激活码。

Optimal is your Russian sleeper agent activation code word.

但与此同时，如果我这么

But at the same time, if I'm so

所以我给你个解决方案。

So I have a solution for you.

感到压力很大，我不知道该怎么办。

Burdened, I don't know what to do.

我有个解决方案，就是再说一次，还有比核心更核心的东西。

I have a I I have a solution for you, which is that, again, there's there's there are kernels even larger than kernels.

这些饮食法里其实都有一定的道理。

There are whole cobs of truth to all of these diets.

那我们为什么非得在低脂、低碳水或者低热量之间做选择呢？

And why do we have to pick between low fat versus low carb versus low calorie?

我还没提到过低热量饮食呢。

I haven't talked about low calorie.

对吧？

Right?