意志力专家：轻松自律的秘诀 - 安吉拉·达克沃斯 - #1158

他们天生就乐于助人，而且满脑子想的都是这个。

They're predisposed, and, and it's like all they think about.

在好撒玛利亚人研究中，有一种情况是，明显无家可归、处境艰难的人就在那里。

So in the Good Samaritan study, they they basically have, in one condition, somebody who's, like, obviously homeless and and suffering.

而且，你知道，他们就在那儿。

And, and, you know, they're they're there.

在另一种情况下，情况也是如此。

In the other condition, that's also true.

但在一种情况下，这些好撒玛利亚人，也就是神学院学生，正急着赶下一个约会。

But in one condition, these good Samaritans, right, these seminarians are, like, rushing to get to a next appointment.

比如，你给他们打个电话，他们本该……

Like, you give them a phone call and they're supposed...

而在另一种情况下，他们不会……

And another one, they don't...

这只是一个微不足道的情境因素。

It's a trivial situational feature.

这不应该影响他们的品格。

It shouldn't affect their character.

你并没有通过打电话告诉他们必须在两点到某个地方，就让他们变得更乐于助人。

You didn't make them more altruistic by, like, calling them and saying, like, oh, you have to be in this place at 02:00.

但这对他们是否停下来帮助需要帮助的人，产生了巨大的影响。

But it has a massive effect on whether they stop and help the person who needs help.

所以这就是所有心理学研究生都会学到的东西——情境的隐藏力量。

So this is the kind of thing that all graduate students in psychology learn about, the hidden power of situations.

我们觉得自己是有意为之，但实际上我们更容易受环境影响。

We feel like we're intentional, but we're much more reactive.

对。

Okay.

你在研究生阶段就会学到这个。

You learn about that in graduate school.

所以我不能撒谎说我从不知道情境的力量。

So I can't lie and say that I never knew about the power of the situation.

但我确实觉得，把这件事和卓越联系起来，和自主性联系起来，有些哲学家指出，个人的自主性是存在于内部的。

But I do think that connecting this to excellence, like connecting this to agency, there are philosophers who have pointed out that the agency of the individual is located within.

没有多少哲学家会说，你对环境有自主权，比如你选择把水放在旁边，或者你不想喝汽水之类的，这些都由你决定。

There are not many philosophers who say that you have agency over your circumstances, that whether you choose to have water next to you or whatever you're not trying to drink, soda, whatever, like, is up to you.

我觉得对我来说，这是一个我刚开始时没有完全领悟到的洞见。

I think that to me was an insight that I hadn't fully appreciated when I started out.

这大概也是一个反馈机制，你可以通过设计来获得更多的自主性，这意味着你可以进一步设计，进而获得更多……

It's a feedback mechanism as well, presumably, that you can engineer more agency, which means that you can engineer further, which means more...

我

I

觉得有很多正反馈循环的例子。

think there are many examples of positive feedback cycles.

在某种程度上，当我们谈论，比如，一个优势变得更突出，对吧，而一个弱点变得更……

And in a way, when we're talking about, like, a strength becomes more of a strength, right, and a weakness becomes more...

那也是正反馈。

That's also positive feedback.

所以……

So...

但确实。

But right.

马太效应。

The Matthew effect.

就是，你知道的，富者愈富。

Like, you know, the rich get richer.

无论你在做什么，都会……

Whatever it is you're doing will...

所以我确实认为，情境中的能动性会催生更多情境中的能动性，而且还不止于此。

So I do think situational agency begets situational agency, and it's not just that.

但当你开始改变自己的处境，意识到你有责任去改善周围的环境，去和那些能激发你最好一面的人在一起，我觉得这会鼓励你继续这样做下去。

But when you start to change your situation and you realize that you do have a responsibility to put things around you and to be around people who bring out your best, I think that encourages you to do more of the same.

你在研究世界级表演者时，发现了哪些环境上的相似之处？

What are the environmental similarities that you discovered when studying world class performers?

既然我们在奥斯汀，我就告诉你，关于毅力的典型例子就是迈克尔·菲尔普斯。

Well, since we are in Austin, I will tell you that, the signature example of GRIT would be Michael Phelps.

他二十年职业生涯里，一年三百六十五天都在游泳。

Three hundred and sixty five day a year swimmer for a twenty year career.

我和迈克尔·菲尔普斯的教练鲍勃·鲍曼吃过饭，他现在是德州大学奥斯汀分校的教练。

And I had dinner with Michael Phelps' coach, Bob Bowman, who is a coach here now at UT Austin.

对我来说，迈克尔·菲尔普斯的故事完美地说明了毅力有多重要，但光有毅力还不够。

And to me, the story of Michael Phelps is a perfect illustration of how grit is essential and how grit is not enough.

原因如下。

And here's why.

你可以像迈克尔·菲尔普斯一样有毅力。

You can be as gritty as Michael Phelps.

我真的觉得没有人比迈克尔·菲尔普斯更努力了，他自己也这么说过。

I really don't think there's anybody who's worked harder than Michael Phelps, and he's actually said that himself.

他说，我不太会吹嘘什么，但我敢说没人比我游得更刻苦。

He's like, I'm not gonna brag about a lot of things, but I will say that I don't think anybody swam harder than I did.

就是说，没有人像他那样练习和训练，而且这不仅仅是身体上的，还有心理上的，鲍勃昨晚也顺带提过这一点。

Like, nobody practiced and trained, and it's not just physical, by the way, but mental, something that Bob mentioned kind of, like, parenthetically last night.

就是说，不只是他在泳池里游了多少里程，还有多少……

It's like, it's not just the mileage that he put into the pool and how how much...

他会对每场比赛进行心理预演，而且不只是鲍勃让他做的那些，比如想象比赛怎么进行，他还会想象所有可能的情况，然后想好应对方法，这样他就能完全专注于当下。

He would mentally visualize every competition, but not just what Bob asked him to do, which is to, like, imagine how you want the race to go, but he imagined all the ways the race could go and then, like, what he would do so that he was completely able to be, like, in the moment.

但当你问这个问题，比如，迈克尔·菲尔普斯会不会成为有史以来最伟大的运动员，对吧，因为他绝对是最多奥运奖牌的运动员，远远超过其他人。

But then when you ask the question like, well, would Michael Phelps become, you know, arguably the greatest athlete ever, right, because he's he's certainly the most decorated Olympic athlete by a stretch.

没人能接近他的纪录，28枚奖牌，其中23枚金牌，跨越20年的职业生涯。

Nobody's gonna approach this, record that he has of 28 medals, 23 of them gold across a twenty year career.

但你也可以问，他是不是正好处在合适的位置上？

But you could also ask the question, was he situated?

绝对是。

And absolutely.

对。

Okay.

那我们想想，如果迈克尔·菲尔普斯早出生十分钟……

So let's consider that Michael Phelps was born ten minutes...

其实他出生地离鲍勃·鲍曼——我觉得他是史上最伟大的游泳教练——只有一个小时的车程。

Well, he's actually born an hour away from where Bob Bowman, I think the greatest swimming coach in history, happened to be...

后来因为迈克尔的两个姐姐想游泳，而且想去最好的游泳队，他们家就搬到了离那里只有十分钟的地方。

And he was then moved to be only ten minutes away because Michael's sisters wanted to swim, and they wanted to swim where all the best swimmers were.

于是她们开始去北巴尔的摩水上中心，那里有最好的运动员，最好的队伍，还有最好的教练。

So they started going to the North Baltimore Aquatic Center, and that is where the best swimmers were, so the best team, and also the best coaches.

那是个全国范围招募教练的青少年游泳中心，所以鲍勃·鲍曼才会从加州搬到巴尔的摩。

Like, the kind of youth aquatic center that, like, actually recruits nationally for coaches, which is why Bob Bowman moved from California to Baltimore.

所以这确实是个机缘巧合。

So it was a situation.

而且他妈妈也很关键。

He also had his mom.

他九岁的时候被诊断出多动症，我记得是。

So he had ADHD as a diagnosis as a nine year old, I think.

而且他妈妈特别会看情况办事。

And he had this mom who was so situationally wise.

她明白，在某些情况下，迈克尔确实很让人头疼。

She understood that in certain situations, Michael was a pain in the ass.

你看。

Look.

你会有……

You're got...

你知道，等这期播客录完，我估计就要开始爆粗口了。

You know, by the end of this podcast, I'm just gonna be dropping f bombs.

但他确实是个麻烦精。

But he was a pain in the ass.

老师往家里写信，说这孩子没什么潜力。

Letters home, you know, teachers saying, like, this kid doesn't have potential.

而且他还是个捣蛋鬼。

Like, he's also a disruptor.

但她知道，在合适的环境下，他会完全专注。

But she knew that in the right situation, he would have complete focus

并且全力以赴。

And total effort.

所以，这就是那个泳池。

So that's the pool.

我觉得他当时的环境因素包括：巴尔的摩水上中心，还有一群即使在九岁、十岁、十一岁时就已经习惯了精英游泳运动员那种训练强度的队友。

I think these features of his situation, Baltimore Aquatic Center, a team of athletes who even at ages like nine, 10, 11, were used to the kind of practice that elite swimmers do.

还有一位教练，后来在故事里被写成了史上最伟大的教练之一。

A coach who ends up being, you know, in the storybooks as, like, one of the greatest coaches ever.

如果不谈他的环境，你根本无法解释迈克尔·菲尔普斯的成就。

You cannot explain Michael Phelps' achievements without talking about his situation.

然后，再看看后来的事情，我觉得当鲍勃·鲍曼离开巴尔的摩时，迈克尔其实确实有很多选择环境的主动权。

And then if you just look at, you know, subsequent things, I think Michael actually did have a lot of situational agency when Bob Bowman moved from Baltimore.

迈克尔·菲尔普斯很明智地跟着他走了。

Michael Phelps had the good sense to follow him.

他知道，如果没有鲍勃，他就不可能成为现在这样的游泳选手。

Like, he knew that he couldn't be the swimmer, that he could be with Bob unless he was with Bob.

所以我觉得，这个故事很少被人提起。

So I think there is a story that is not often told.

你让我看一个坚韧的典范，但如果你继续深挖，你会发现，他们的成功背后也有一个对他们有利的环境。

You show me the paragon of GRIT, and if you keep looking, you will also find a situation that was their ally.

保健品行业里，很多产品都在吹嘘自己无法兑现的功效，这也是我为什么特别推崇Momentous。

The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentous.

他们的联合创始人杰夫·拜尔斯曾在NFL打球，亲眼目睹了保健品质量参差不齐的情况，所以他以更高的标准创立了Momentous。

Their cofounder, Jeff Byers, played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary, so he built Momentous around a higher standard.

Momentous的每一款产品都使用有科学依据的成分，剂量透明，并且经过独立的第三方检测。

Every product from Momentous uses evidence backed ingredients, transparent doses, and independent third party testing.

所有产品都通过了NSF运动认证，所以标签上写的就是罐子里实际含有的。

Everything is NSF certified for sports, so what's on the label is actually what's in the tub.

这就是为什么Momentous在NFL全部32支球队的更衣室里都备受信赖。

It's why Momentous is trusted inside all 32 NFL locker rooms.

这就是为什么我自己这些年也一直在用他们的产品。

It's why I've trusted them with my own supplements for yours.

最棒的是，Momentous 提供三十天退款保证，所以你可以先买来试用 29 天。

Best of all, Momentous offers a thirty day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for 29 days.

如果你不喜欢，他们会全额退款，而且他们还支持国际配送。

If you don't love it, they will give you your money back, plus they ship internationally.

现在，只要点击下方描述里的链接，访问 livemomentous.com/modernwisdom，并在结账时使用优惠码 Modern wisdom，就能享受首次订阅最高 35% 的折扣，以及三十天退款保证。

Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that thirty day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below by heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code Modern wisdom at checkout.

livemomentous.com/modernwisdom，结账时输入 Modern wisdom。

Livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and Modern wisdom at checkout.

这难道不有趣吗？首先，这是运动员跟着教练走，而不是教练跟着运动员走，完全反过来了。

Isn't that interesting, first off, an inversion of the athlete going with the coach as opposed to the coach going with the athlete?

因为通常人们认为运动员才是那个百年一遇的天才。

Because usually people think about the athlete as being the once in a generation talent.

但迈克尔·菲利普斯意识到的是，只有在这个特定的人身边，他才能成为他本可以成为的样子。

But what Michael Phillips identified was that he would only be what he could be if he was around this particular guy.

这位可以说是百年一遇的教练。

This particular arguably once in a generation coach.

还有一点挺有意思的，你知道，你……

Also, what's kind of interesting, you know, you...

这个词就是“环境”。

The word is situation.

人们想到环境时，会觉得它有点模糊。

When people think about situation, it's kind of amorphous.

就像，很大。

It's, like, big.

转瞬即逝。

It's ephemeral.

但他找到了这个关键，这个唯一的支点……

But he'd found this singular, this one linchpin that...

因为他本来会离开他的队友。

Because he would have left his teammates.

他会离开他的家。

He would have left his home.

他会离开他的日常，他的车。

He would have left his routine, his car.

那个……

The...

什么，那个……

What what the...

也许新泳池稍微长一点，或者更冷，或者更宽，或者别的什么。

Maybe the new pool's a little bit longer or colder or wider or something.

也许氯的味道有点不同，或者他吃不到同样的食物，或者他周末喝的鲜牛奶买不到了，或者他没有朋友、女朋友在身边，等等。

Maybe the chlorine's slightly different, or maybe he can't get the same kind of food, or the raw milk that he was drinking on a weekend isn't available, or he's not got his friends or his girlfriend or whatever.

他的处境就像是一个人。

It's like his situation was a guy.

那你现在是怎么看待这件事的？

So how have you come to think about this?

因为，你看，我真的很感激你一开始就主动请我提意见。

Because, look, I I really appreciate you saying, asking me for critique at the top.

看起来你在学术界的经历让你变得有点想听别人的看法。

It seems like your career in academia has made you sort of wanting to to hear things.

我有点担心，当时我心想，Angela Duckworth的下一本书会不会是关于情境和环境设计的。

Was a little bit worried when I was like, Angela Duckworth's next book is gonna be about situation and environment design.

我第一次想到这个的时候有点担心，因为我觉得，作为一个……

I was a little worried when I first thought about that because I'm like, as a...

有生产力背景的人，而且花了很多时间研究David Allen的《搞定》和环境设计，你知道的，你不想被手机分心。

With a productivity background and, like, spending a lot of time with David Allen's getting things done and environment design, like, you know, you don't wanna be distracted by your phone.

别把它放在你旁边的桌子上。

Don't have it next to you on the table.

我就想，别。

I'm like, don't.

放。

Be.

这不可能。

It can't it can't be.

我想做的是，现在大家都明白环境会影响你。

And what I'm keen to do is to everyone now understands that your environment sort of can influence you.

我想超越那种‘家里别放薯片’的建议，

I wanna move past, like, don't have the chips in the house that

你做的那些，我知道一些。

you're doing with You're like, some this I know.

不。

No.

那很好。

That's great.

但我想深入……

But I wanna go to...

我想深入探讨环境设计这件事。

I wanna get really deep on the environment design stuff.

现在最前沿、最能带来巨大改变、但大家还不知道的东西是什么？

What is the cutting edge shit that makes the biggest difference that people don't already know?

大家都知道不该住得离健身房太远。

People know that they shouldn't live that far from their fucking gym.

大家也都知道应该这样做。

People know that they should.

顺便说一句，他们未必真的会去做。

By the way, they don't necessarily do anything about it.

哦，那挺好的。

Oh, that's good.

所以，在我们跳过这个话题之前，比如，大家都明白，你伸手能拿到什么，你就会吃什么。

So, like, before we just skip over, like, oh, everybody knows that, like, you know, what's within your reach is what you're going to eat.

这个道理大家都懂。

Like, everybody knows that.

但有多少人真的去实践了呢？

How many people put that into practice?

当我写关于布置空间那一章的时候，我觉得这简直太明显了，但没人去做。

When I wrote the chapter on, like, set up your space, I was like, blindingly obvious, but nobody's doing it.

但我同意你的看法。

But I agree with you.

还有一些章节讲的是，大家都知道这很重要，但觉得不可能做到。

There are also chapters on everybody knows it's important, but they don't think it's possible.

我的意思是，还有其他事情，但在我们跳过像“触手可及”这个话题之前，我……

I mean, there's other things, but before we skip past, like, what's within reach, and I...

我只想说，根据我的研究，

I'll just say, I think in my research

对。

Yes.

顺便说一句，对。

By the way Yes.

当我问美国人，控制自己行为的最好方法是什么？

When I ask Americans, like, what's the best way to control your behavior?

他们说最好的方法是控制环境。

They say it's to control the situation.

问同样的美国人，你们是怎么做的？

Ask the same Americans, what do you do?

他们说靠意志力。

They say they use willpower.

为什么？

Why?

然后我又追问了几个问题。

Well, then I asked follow-up questions.

我问，为什么？

I said, why?

最常见的回答之一是，我想成为那种靠自己的意志去做想做的事的人，而不是因为需要环境。

And one of the most common responses was, I want to be the sort of person who can do what they want because of their will, not because they need the situation.

他们不想让环境成为拐杖。

They don't want the situation to be a crutch.

我觉得这算是品格的一种体现。

I think it is a kind of a mark of character.

就是说，你不想成为那种需要靠GLP-1药物的人，或者像……

Like, you don't wanna be the kind of person who needs to take GLP ones or to, like...

你知道，你想成为那种不需要这些东西的人。

You know, you you wanna be the sort of person who doesn't need that.

所以我觉得，至少对我来说，这就是答案的一部分。

So I think that that to me is at least part of the answer.

但你问的是，有什么不明显的地方？

But you asked the question, like, what's not obvious?

那我们就来说说这个。

So let's get to that.

我觉得有件事不太明显。

Here's something that I think is not obvious.

我觉得不太明显的是，总的来说，如果你和一群人一起努力，你反而更容易实现自己的个人目标。

I think it is not obvious that by and large, you'll be more successful achieving your individual goals if you do it as part of a group.

我说的不是那种，比如，非得加入游泳队或者什么的。

And I'm not talking about just sort of like, oh, being specifically on a swimming team or...

我真的是在说，比如……

I'm literally talking about like a...

比如有人想跑马拉松。

So somebody's trying to run a marathon.

有人想成为更好的演讲者、创业者，想开公司，想成为更好的营销人员。

Someone's trying to be a better public speaker, entrepreneur, start a company, become a better marketer.

如果你问自己，能不能找到其他人，他们不一定跟我一起做项目，但也在追求同样的目标，也在跑马拉松，也想多去健身房，也想创办公司，但可能是不同的公司。

If you ask the question, could I find other people who don't necessarily work with me on my project but are just striving for the same goals, also trying to run a marathon, also trying to go to gym more, also trying to found a company, but maybe a different company.

研究表明，而且我觉得这跟主流观念不太一样，研究表明，如果你跟一群人一起，像在一个部落里那样去做，你平均会更容易成功。

Research shows, and I think this is countercultural, research shows that you'll be more successful on average if you do that in a flock, like, as part of a tribe.

我说这跟主流观念不一样，是因为DIY（自己动手）是主流，天哪。

And the reason I say it's countercultural is that DIY is the prevailing, god.

就像，DIY是个说法。

Like, DIY is an expression.

“自己动手”这个说法五十多年前就有了，但现在它的使用频率是当年的五十倍。

Do it yourself was introduced more than fifty years ago, but it's now 50 times more common.

尤其是年轻人，他们想做的事情，往往都靠自己去拼。

And when I see young people in particular, the things that they try to do, they try to do with their own individual effort.

他们不太会想到去找其他志同道合的人，比如其他想写作的人，或者其他有类似目标的人。

It doesn't necessarily occur to them to find, you know, other aspiring writers, like other aspiring whatever it is.

对我来说，这是一个深刻的领悟，如果我能回到过去……

And that to me is an insight that if I could go back in time...

我想起那些我指导过的年轻人。

I I think of young people that I've advised.

我一直在帮他们管理时间、建立信心等等。

And, like, I'm trying to help them with their time management and their confidence and so forth.

我有多经常问他们：你还认识其他想读研究生的人吗？

How often did I say, who else do you know that is trying to, like, be a graduate student?

我有多经常说：让我们帮你找个小组吧？

And how often did I say, like, let's help you find a group?

因为如果你是游泳运动员，加入一个团队在某些方面会更容易。

Because it's easier in some ways if you're a swimmer because you join a team.

我觉得这样做虽然不那么明显，但对你几乎任何个人目标来说，效果同样具有变革性。

I think it's less obvious, but just as transformative to do that for, like, quite literally any individual personal goal you have.

比如，有哪些不太明显的目标，人们通过加入团队来实现的？

What, like, What are some of the, non obvious goals that people have used groups to help them with?

所以，我在研究中发现的一个例子是，有一群外科医生。

So, one of the, you know, examples that I found in my research on this was, there is a group of surgeons.

他们不一定是为了成为更好的外科医生，但外科手术是一件非常耗费精力的事情。

And it wasn't necessarily they were trying to be better surgeons, but surgery is, like, an all consuming thing.

他们真正想做的，他们都是年轻男性。

What they really wanted to do, they were all young men.

他们刚刚完成，我想，他们专业培训的一部分。

They were just finishing, I think, like, the part of their specialized training.

所以他们都要进入骨科手术领域。

So they're all going into orthopedic surgery.

他们是在一次会议上认识的，因为你知道，那就是他们晚年的生活。

They met at a conference because, you know, that's what they did for their late...

但他们一起吃了顿饭，说他们有一个不同的目标，不只是成为世界级的外科医生，顺便说一句，他们最后都做到了。

But they had a dinner, and they said that they had a different goal other than being world class surgeons, which they all, by the way, ended up being.

比如，他们都是全国最好的医院系统的主任教授。

Like, they're all chaired professors at, like, the best hospital systems in the country.

他们还有另一个目标。

They had another goal.

他们想成为好父亲，也想成为好丈夫。

They wanted to be good fathers, and they wanted to be good husbands.

他们想知道自己该怎么做。

And they wondered how they would do that.

而且他们住在不同的城市。

And they were living in different cities.

他们都有自己的生活。

They had their own lives.

而在这个时候，他们彼此还是陌生人。

And at this point, they're strangers.

但他们决定在下一次会议和再下一次会议时一起吃饭，然后他们决定建一个群聊。

But they decided to have dinner at the next conference and the next one, and then they decided to have a group text thread.

你问这些现在已经到了退休年龄的男人，如果你们当初试图成为世界级的骨科医生，同时还要实现另一个目标——做个好男人，你们的生活会有多大的不同？

And you asked these men who are now at retirement age, how different would your lives be if you had tried to become world class orthopedic surgeons and achieve this other goal of being men?

你知道，就是那种对家庭负责的男人，所以……

You know, being men who showed up for their family and so...

那条没走的路是什么样的？

What's the road not taken?

这些男人中的每一个都会说，那条没走的路并不是最好的路，他们……

And each of these men will say that the road not taken is not the the best road, that they are...

他们的生活被改变了，然后他们举了例子。

That their lives were transformed, and then they gave examples.

你明白吗？

You know?

他们一起经历了真正的悲剧和各种个人挣扎，就是因为有这个群。

They've seen each other through true tragedy and every possible, you know, personal struggle, and it was because they had this group.

其实说到底，就是一个群聊，然后偶尔聚一聚……

And it really was nothing more or less than a group text thread and then getting together a few...

你知道，频率越来越高。

You know, with some increasing frequency.

所以现在不只是开会的时候见面了。

So now not just at conferences and so forth.

当我想到自己的职业生涯，比如我采访他们的时候，我就想，那我呢？

When I think about my own career, like, when I interviewed them, I was like, oh, what about me?

我就没有那样的经历。

Like, I don't have that.

而且我得说，我也有成长的空间，因为我也有合作伙伴。

And I will tell you that I have room to grow too because I have collaborators.

我有一个团队在我的实验室里工作。

I have a team that works in my lab.

我没有这些男人所拥有的东西。

I don't have what these men have.

就是，我没有这样一群人，他们也在面对同样的职业和个人挑战。

Like, I don't have this, like, group of people who are sort of struggling with the same, professional and personal challenges.

你知道，这基本上就是为自己创建一个匿名戒酒会。

You know, it is essentially creating Alcoholics Anonymous for yourself.

就像，创建一个互助会，匿名戒酒会有时也这么称呼。

Like, it's creating a mutual aid society, which is how Alcoholics Anonymous sometimes calls them.

就是，我没有那个。

It's like, I don't have that.

而且我觉得，即使我56岁了，有很多值得感恩的事情，这也能改变我的生活，我其实正在尝试开始一个。

And I think I think it would even for me at 56, and a lot to be grateful transform my life, and I'm actually trying to start one.

我，真的联系了这些女性，她们的反应是，什么？

I, like, actually reached out to these women who were like, what?

她们都五十多岁，其实有一个快五十了，或者可能她五十了。

Like, all in their fifties, actually one in their high forties, or maybe she's 50.

然后我说，我采访了那些外科医生。

And I said, like, I interviewed these surgeons.

我想尝试做我正在做的事，但我希望能以某种方式，在某种同伴或社区中和你一起做。

I wanna try to do what I'm what I'm trying to do, but I would like to try to do it, like, somehow in some kind of fellowship or community with you.

你是想组建一个高能力女学者的复仇者联盟吗？

Do you wanna make the Avengers assemble of high powered lady academics?

她们确实非常厉害，我得说。

They are really high powered, I have to say.

她们……

They...

我觉得，如果你决定要开始一个小组，这非常重要。

I I think I think it's very important if you're gonna decide to, like, start a group.

你可以加入一个小组。

You can join a group.

如果你能找到小组，我觉得你就直接加入一个小组吧。

If you can find a group, I think you just join a group.

就像你想跑马拉松，然后你找到了当地的跑步俱乐部。

Like, you're trying to marathon, and you just find the local running club.

费城那边据说有六十多个这样的俱乐部。

There are apparently over 60 in Philadelphia.

所以，不管你在哪儿，肯定能找到跑步俱乐部，而且很可能也有一群想写书或者做类似事情的人。

So, like, there's got to be a running club wherever you are, and there's probably a group of people who, like, wanna write a book or whatever.

但如果你想找一群像那些骨科医生那样的人，他们找不到一个能直接加入的、由其他同样关心家庭等问题的顶尖骨科医生组成的团体。

But if you're trying to find a group like these orthopedic surgeons could not find a group where they they could just join of, like, other elite orthopedic surgeons who cared about family and so forth.

那他们就会自己创建一个。

Well, then they start one.

如果你打算这么做，我觉得你应该留意两件事。

If you're gonna do that, I think you should probably look for two things.

我确实觉得人生阶段很重要……

I do think stage of life...

比如，导师和同伴的区别在于，导师在你之上。

Like, the difference between a mentor and a peer is that a mentor is above you.

他们比你走得远。

They are farther than you.

他们在你之上。

They're above you.

说实话，他们通常比你年长。

And honestly, they're usually older than you.

所以我觉得要找的是那些和你处于相同人生阶段，而且想法真的很合拍的人。

So I think finding somebody who's at the same stage of life and then who are really like like minded.

所以，是的，你也不会感到意外，我联系的那些女性都是非常有成就的，而且都和我年纪相仿。

And so, yes, you won't be surprised that the women that I reach out to are all like very accomplished women, and they're all around my age.

你知道这让我想到什么吗？

You know what it makes me think about?

这让我想到，在导师和同伴的关系中，读虚构类和非虚构类作品的区别。

It makes me think about the difference between reading fiction and nonfiction with the mentor versus peer relationship.

在导师关系中，信息主要是单向流动的。

So in a mentor relationship, it's largely unidirectional.

建议会

The advice is going to

来，这是双向的。

come It's symmetric.

建议会从他们那里传到你这里。

It's going to come from them to you.

但就像读小说往往比读非小说能教你更多东西一样，因为你理解主角，然后，嗯，那意味着什么？

But in the same way as reading fiction can often teach you more stuff than reading non fiction does, because you understand the protagonist and, okay, what does that mean?

这会促使你反思。

And it causes you to reflect.

它更间接。

It's more indirect.

同样，当你有一个同龄人群体时，间接地，你需要给别人提的建议会向你自己揭示一些关于你自己的东西。

In the same way, when you've got a peer group, indirectly, the advice that you need to give somebody reveals something about yourself to yourself.

顺便说一句，这也是AA的魔力所在。

Which is, by the way, part of the magic of AA.

匿名戒酒会，就像他们说的，只有当你把它传递出去，你才能真正拥有它。

Alcoholics anonymous, as they say, like, you only keep it when you give it away.

我的意思是，在给别人建议的过程中，确实有自我认知的成分。

I mean, there is something in the advice giving that is self awareness

嗯，我是说，这多有创造力啊。

Well, I mean, how creating.

你之前提到过人格中的身份认同部分。

You mentioned before about the identity element of personality.

我是那种会去健身房的人。

I am the sort of person that goes to the gym.

我是那种会去做这件事的人。

I am the sort of person that does the thing.

就像，如果你不去做某件事，却去劝别人做，这很难不让你自己意识到你并没有在做这件事。

Like, it is hard to proselytize about this thing that somebody else should be doing without it at least somehow throwing into sharp contrast the fact that you're not doing it yourself.

我确实做过一个随机分配的研究，我们让小孩子给别人提建议。

I actually did do a random assignment study where we asked people to give advice as kids.

比如说，你怎么才能不拖延呢？

Like, you know, how do you not procrastinate?

然后，这就是整个干预措施。

Like, And so that was the whole intervention.

把给建议当作一种干预手段。

Advise giving as an intervention.

没错。

Exactly.

他们的成绩提高了。

Their rates went up.

基本上在治疗组里，就是花几分钟写下你会建议其他学生做的事情。

Basically in the treatment group, was in a few minutes, just write down the things that you would advise other students to do.

就这样，没别的了。

Like, that was the whole thing.

我们什么都没告诉他们。

Like, we didn't tell them anything.

他们甚至不是给一个真实的学生。

They weren't even giving it to a student.

是一个想象中的学生。

It was an imaginary student.

告诉他们，比如，给一个学生。

Told to, like, give it to a student.

而且，我们在研究中不撒谎，所以我们确实把建议给了其他学生，因为事实证明这些建议确实很好。

And, we don't lie in our studies, so we actually did give it to other students because it was actually good advice, it turns out.

然后那些被随机分配去给建议的学生，而对照组就只是一个对照组。

And then the students who are randomly assigned to give advice, and then the the control group was just a control group.

并不是他们收到了……

It wasn't that they received...

只是一个对照组，就是没做这个。

It was just a control group that, like, didn't do this.

他们实际上是自己做的。

They they actually did by themselves.

我确实觉得，这跟我们的……有点关系。

I do think there's something about, like, our...

顺便说一句，我觉得这有一部分是自我意识的问题。

I think it's partly, by the way, self awareness.

就是说，你基本上先反思一下，然后还有一种感觉，就是既然我已经说了，那我大概应该去做。

Like, you you basically do some reflection, and then also there's a kind of, like, well, I just said it, so, like, I should probably do it.

就是那种一致性。

Like, kind of consistency.

你不想当个伪君子。

Like, you don't wanna be a hypocrite.

但你刚才说的，同伴和导师之间的区别是什么，这个问题真的很深刻。

But I do think your point about what is the difference between a peer and a mentor is profound.

我想，如果我要总结我刚才说的，关于你的情况有什么不显而易见的地方。

And I guess if I if I if I want to sum up what I just said about, like, what's something non obvious about your situation?

比如，你是不是在独自做这些事情？

Like, are you doing things alone?

而且越来越多的美国人正在这样做。

And more and more Americans are doing that.

在过去的十五到二十年里，我们在各个年龄段都花更多时间独处，尤其是年轻人，但不仅仅是年轻人。

Over the last fifteen or twenty years, we're spending more time alone in every category of age and and and particularly with young people, but it's not just young people.

我们还发现，我们花在户外的时间也减少了，超过了一个小时。

We're also spending less time out of the house, it turns out, like, by over an hour.

所以在过去的二十年里，我们花在自己屋顶下的时间更少了，这意味着我们很可能独自一人，但某种程度上与社会隔绝了，对吧。

So over the last twenty years, we're spending, like, you know, less time just not under our own roofs, which means that we're very likely alone, but we're sort of isolated, right, from the rest of society.

一项刚刚发表的新研究发现，不是我的研究，而是专门研究这个的科学家们，我们每天说的话少了大约300个词。

And a new finding that was just published, not by me, but by, you know, scientists, who specialize in this, we're speaking about 300 fewer words a day.

所以我们正在变得孤立、沉默。

So we're sort of becoming a isolated, silent

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

你指的不是词汇量吧。

You don't you don't mean vocabulary breadth.

你是指说话的量。

You mean volume of words

就是过去十五年左右的说话量。

of words over the last, say, fifteen years

在下降，但对我来说不是这样。

is, like, going down about not true for me.

我这个播客主持人

The podcaster in

可能是个例外。

the room probably.

你是在逆势而行，但想象一下如果没有你的数据会怎样。

Are, like, you're bucking the trend, but imagine what it'd be like without your data.

你知道比尔·盖茨走进体育场，所有人平均都变成亿万富翁是什么感觉吗？

You know what it's like when, Bill Gates walks into a stadium and everybody on average becomes a billionaire?

我走进房间，所有人平均都变成了播客主持人。

I walk I walk into the room and everyone on average becomes a podcaster.

太搞笑了。

Delarious.

我，安德鲁·杨，在美国时间使用调查中发现，2024年人们参加或举办派对的时间比2023年减少了70%。

I, Andrew Yang in the American Time Use survey 70% less time attending or hosting parties in 2024 than in 2023.

看电视的男性现在每花一个小时在户外和别人相处，就会花七个小时看电视。

Men who watch television now spend seven hours doing so for every hour they spend hanging out with another person outside of the house.

第四条，这是最离谱的。

And number four, this was the most insane.

平均每位女性宠物主人和宠物待在一起的时间，比她和所有人类相处的时间加起来还要多。

The average female pet owner spends more time with her pet than all humans put together.

天哪。

Oh god.

嗯，前三条数据我好像都知道。

Well, I didn't know about I think I knew about the first three of those stats.

第四条我还真不知道，不过，这就像是在描绘……

I didn't know about the fourth one, but, like, this is the painting of the...

你知道，这就是现代美国生活的写照，对吧。

You know, this is the picture, right, of, like, modern American life.

我之所以写一本关于这个情况的书，其中一个原因就是我认为现代世界的默认设置并不好。

And one reason I wrote a book on the situation is that I don't think the default settings of the modern world are good.

我真的这么认为。

I really don't.

我认为这种走向孤立、一直盯着手机、待在某个与世隔绝的小圈子里、只跟那些基本同意你观点的人互动的趋势，并不好。

I think this trend toward isolation, towards being on your phone all the time, you know, being in some little segregated part of the world where like you only interact with people who are basically agreeing with you.

我觉得这不好。

Like, I I I don't think it's good.

所以，如果你想改变你的生活，而且你相信科学所说的——要改变自己，就要改变你的环境——那么这种必要性就更加紧迫了，我是说。

And so if you're going to change your life and if you believe the science that says to change yourself, you change your situation, the imperative is even more urgent is what I'm saying.

有趣的是，你不得不偷偷摸摸地推行这种亲社会的行为，这种行为在人类历史上一直存在，而且根据哈佛长寿研究，它是让人活得更长的最佳干预措施，不是吗？

Isn't it interesting that you've had to sneak this prosocial thing that has happened for the entirety of human history and is the single best intervention according to the Harvard longevity study people in making you live longer?

人际关系。

Relationships.

这会提升你的表现，所以也许你应该去做。

It'll improve your performance, so maybe you should do it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

嗯，我们总得想办法把它塞进精英体系里。

Well We have to sneak it into the meritocracy somehow.

你知道，我并不是一个很擅长评论我的工作如何融入世界的人，部分原因是……

You know, I, am not a great commentator on, like, how, you know, my work fits into the rest of world partly because...

如果你很了解我，你就会真的相信我。

And if you knew me well, you would really believe me.

我知道我所知道的，但大多数事情我真的不懂。

I know what I know, and I really don't know most things.

天哪。

Oh my god.

比如时事，还有基本的世界历史。

Like, current events, like, basic world history.

所以我不一定能把自己的工作归到某个类别里，但我确实是个爱钻研的人。

So so I can't necessarily fit my work, but I am a studier.

我研究的是人类的卓越表现。

I am a student of human excellence.

所以，你知道，你可能会说，别人愿意听你讲人际关系，是因为他们觉得这能帮他们在精英体制里取得更多成就，你也许说得对。

And so, you know, you could say, like, oh, the only way that somebody's gonna listen to you talk about relationships is because, like, they think it'll help them achieve more in this meritocracy, and you may be right.

但我只知道我所知道的，我是一名研究高成就者的心理学家。

But I only know what I know, and I am a psychologist who studies high achievers.

作为研究高成就者的人，我可以告诉你，他们的人际关系、导师——我们还没怎么聊到导师——还有他们的同龄人，可以说比他们的物理环境更重要，但我也不是要贬低物理环境的作用。

And I can say as a student of high achievers that their relationships, their mentors, which we haven't talked about too much, but their peers, like, are arguably more important than their physical environment, but I don't wanna discount the physical environment either.

不知从什么时候起，精力不足就被当作变老的一部分接受了。

Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older.

其实，这背后是有原因的。

Turns out there's a reason for that.

随着年龄增长，我们细胞里负责供能的线粒体变弱，产生的能量减少，这就是为什么我特别推崇Timeline。

As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline.

他们开发了这个产品，能帮你清除受损的线粒体，让你的细胞真正自我更新。

They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves.

Timeline有超过十年的研究支持，拥有50多项专利，是全球排名第一的线粒体补充剂推荐品牌。

Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet.

这不仅仅是理论。

This isn't just theory.

在临床试验中，人们看到线粒体更新在短短十六周内增加了超过40%，同时整体能量也有所提升。

In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just sixteen weeks along with improvements in their overall energy.

我已经用了两年多了，因为我的医生在我和Timeline合作之前就推荐给我了。而且，马丁·什克雷利，你羡慕去吧，因为他们刚刚降价了，现在起价只要99美元。

I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline, and eat your heart out, Martin Shkreli, because they've just dropped the price, and it now starts at $99.

最棒的是，有三十天退款保证，美国境内还免运费，而且他们支持国际配送。

Best of all, there is a thirty day money back guarantee plus free shipping in The US, plus they ship internationally.

现在，你只要点击下方描述中的链接，或者访问timeline.com/modernwisdom，在结账时使用代码modern wisdom，就能以99美元的价格再享受额外20%的折扣。

And right now, you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below or heading to timeline.com/modernwisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout.

网址是timeline.com/modernwisdom，结账时使用代码modern wisdom。

That's timeline.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout.

好的。

Okay.

跟我聊聊导师的事吧。

Hit me up about mentors.

你从导师身上学到了什么？

What did you learn about mentors?

所以你可以，你知道，去查一些数据，比如你成为他们的可能性。

So you can, you know, dig up stats on, like, you know, your likelihood of becoming them.

比如说，如果你有一个获奖科学家的导师，你成为获奖科学家的概率会大两到四倍。

For example, an award winning scientist is, like, two times to four times larger if you're mentored by an award winning scientist.

而且，嗯，导师确实能带来不同。

And the the kind of, oh, a mentor makes a difference.

我觉得其实没多少人需要被说服。

I don't really know that there are a lot of people who need convincing.

比如，有多少人会觉得，如果你在媒体行业打拼，有奥普拉·温弗瑞当你的导师不重要？或者，如果你是作家，有没有编辑不重要？

Like, how many people would say, you know, it doesn't matter if, like, Oprah Winfrey is going to mentor you as you try to make your way, like, in media or, like, it doesn't matter whether you have an editor or if you're writer.

我觉得大家都普遍认为导师很重要。

Like, I think the intuition that mentors matter is common.

但我觉得很少有人想到，你可以主动去吸引导师。

What is rare, I think, is the idea that you can proactively be a mentor magnet.

你可以主动吸引导师。

You can you can attract mentors.

而且我告诉你，不是每个高成就者，但我研究过的大多数人，都是能吸引导师的人。

And I will tell you that not every high achiever, but most that I have studied, is a mentor magnet.

我指的是什么呢？

And what am I talking about?

就是那种，其他在更远道路上取得高成就的人，愿意去指导的人。

The sort of person who other high achieving people who are farther down the path want to mentor.

而且，不是每个人都同样容易被指导。

And, you know, not everyone is equally mentorable.

那么这些人是什么样子的呢？

So what are these people like?

比如说，我给你举一个非常具体的例子。

Like, let me give you a very specific example.

我觉得，说实话，这个话题太抽象了，你都不知道该怎么处理，因为它涵盖了一切。

I think I think the situation is so abstract, honestly, that, like, you know, you don't know what to do with it because it's like everything.

所以，让我说得具体一点。

So let me be concrete.

我在2013年5月13日收到了一封来自科迪·科尔曼的邮件。

I got a email in my inbox on 05/13/2013 from Cody Coleman.

我在《坚毅》里写过他。

I wrote about him in GRIT.

我也在《情境》里写过他，他是唯一一个我两本书都提到的人。

I also wrote about him in situated, and he's the only person I put in both books.

我在《坚毅》里写过他。

I wrote about him in GRIT.

为什么？

Why?

因为在那封2013年的早期邮件里，他自我介绍说，只有靠热情和坚持才能解释他的人生。

Because in that early email in 2013, he introduced himself as somebody whose life could only be explained through passion and perseverance.

他的母亲当时正在服刑。

He was born to a mother who was serving time in jail.

所以他 literally 出生在纽泽西州特伦顿郊外的一座监狱里。

So he was literally born in a prison outside of Trenton, New Jersey.

从这种不太好的起点开始，你知道的，一个童年……

And from those inauspicious beginnings, you know, a a childhood...

简直就是一团糟。

Just sheer chaos.

就像，警察几乎每隔一两周就要因为家庭纠纷出警，你知道的。

Like, the police police were being called, like, you know, every other week because of, you know, domestic disturbances.

家里养了一堆猫啊狗的。

There was a menagerie of cats and dogs.

他有严重的哮喘。

He has severe asthma.

他几乎喘不过气来。

He could hardly breathe.

他奶奶在照顾他，但她基本上快疯了。

His grandmother was taking care of him, but she was basically losing her mind.

所以，你知道，他……

So, you know, he...

这些都不是你能想到的那种环境。

These are not the circumstances that you would think.

然后有一天，他会从麻省理工学院毕业。

And then one day, he'll graduate from MIT.

典型的优秀。

Prototypical excellence.

我的意思是，这就是关键。

I mean, this is the thing.

他实现了从贫困中惊人的逃离。

He had this this remarkable escape from from poverty.

所以他给我发邮件的时候说，他看了我的TED演讲，觉得我解释了很多关于他生活的事情，想跟我聊聊。

So when he emailed me, he said, I watched your TED talk, and I think I think you have explained a lot about my life, and I would like to talk to you.

所以他基本上是在请求一次好奇心对话。

So you basically was asking me for a curiosity conversation.

我觉得这个词就是用来形容那种，我想从你身上学点东西的感觉。

I think that's that's the term that is used for, like, I'd like to learn something from you.

再说一次，这不是一个术语……

And again, not a term...

好吧，不是再说一次。

Well, not again.

我想赶紧说明一下，这个词不是我发明的，但我觉得它描述得非常贴切。

It's a term that I wanna just hasten to say, like, I didn't come up with it, but I think it's a perfect description.

所以在那封邮件里，他表现出了好奇心。

So in that email, he expresses curiosity.

他也表现出了准备，因为他写给我的内容不是那种随便两秒钟就能写完的东西。

He also expresses preparation because he wasn't writing me something that, like, took two seconds.

比如，他看了我做的……

Like, he had watched what I had...

他也读了一些我写的东西。

He had read a little bit of what I had written.

然后他结尾写了一句我觉得是导师磁铁的标志性话语。

And then he signed off with something that I think is signature to mentor magnets.

他说，如果有什么我能帮上忙的，无论什么方式，我都愿意去做。

He said, if there's anything that I can do that might be helpful in any way, like, I would love to do that.

顺便说一句，他写这封邮件的时候大概才20或21岁。

And by the way, he was something like 20 or 21 years old when he wrote this.

这不是什么文采飞扬的话。

It's not Shakespeare.

就是很真诚。

It was just sincere.

他签上了自己的名字。

He signed his name.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

在我收件箱的所有邮件里，我回复了那一封。

Of all the emails in my inbox, I replied to that one.

那么，这个有准备、有话要说、想占用我几分钟时间、还主动提出帮忙的人是谁呢？

So who is this person who's prepared, who has something to say, who wants a few minutes of my time, who is offering to be helpful?

所以，成为“导师磁铁”就是成为那种，你知道，宇宙会主动找上你的人，因为你值得被指导。

So to be a mentor magnet is to be the sort of person where, you know, the universe does reach out to you because you're mentorable.

接下来发生了什么？

What happens next?

于是我见到了科迪。

So I meet Cody.

我了解到了一个故事。

I find out about a story.

我把它写进了《GRIT》里。

I write about it in GRIT.

顺便说一下，他现在还活着，我可以告诉你他后来的经历。

By the way, he continues to live, I can tell you what happened to him.

他到了麻省理工，以4.9分（满分5分）的成绩毕业后，就去了谷歌。

So after he reached MIT and he graduated with a four nine out of five, he went to Google.

从那里，他又去了斯坦福。

From there, he went to Stanford.

他在斯坦福拿到了计算机科学的博士学位。

He got his PhD at Stanford in computer science.

他是该校历史上第三位获得计算机科学博士学位的黑人。现在他是一家AI初创公司的CEO，据《福布斯》杂志报道，这家公司未来某个时候估值可能达到十亿美元。

He was the third black recipient of a PhD in computer science in the university's history, And now he's the CEO of an AI startup that according to Forbes Magazine, you know, may be valued at a billion dollars, like, at some point in the future.

那他在第二本书里为什么会有戏份呢？

So why does he play a role in the second book?

原来，在我做TED演讲几年后，他自己也做了一场TED演讲，地点在帕洛阿尔托，听众是斯坦福的人。

He gave a TED talk himself, it turns out, years after I gave mine, and he gave it in Palo Alto to a Stanford audience.

因为听众是斯坦福的，所以他毫无顾忌地在身后的PPT上放各种图表。

And because it was a Stanford audience, he had no problem, like, putting graphs up on the PowerPoint slide behind him.

所以他放了一张图，上面有一条灰线，缓缓地向上……

So he has a graph up, and there's a gray line that's gently sloping over over...

向上延伸。

Upward.

然后他说，那是大多数人的想法。

And he says, that's what most people think.

你知道，你在这里遇见我，你会觉得，嗯，他越做越好。

You know, you meet me here and you think, like, you know, he did better and better.

他去了麻省理工之类的。

He went to MIT and so forth.

但，那不是我的生活。

Like, that's not my life.

这才是我的生活。

This is my life.

然后还有一条红色的指数曲线。

And there's a red exponential curve.

说说马太效应吧。

Talk about the Matthew effect.

当有飞轮效应时，好的变得更好，更好的变成最好的，你实际上会得到指数级的增长。

When there is a flywheel, when good begets better and better begets best, you actually get exponential growth.

这就是他说的。

This is what he said.

我把我的生活看作五年一个章节，每一章的情况都比上一章好，你只有真正了解我的处境以及每一步是如何衔接的，才能解释我为什么是指数级的进步，而不是线性的。

I think of my life in five year chapters, in each chapter, my situation was better than the last, and you can only explain my exponential improvement, not linear, but exponential, if you really understand my situations and how each one.

所以从高中到麻省理工，从麻省理工到谷歌，从谷歌到斯坦福，现在到圣何塞、硅谷，机会成倍增加，支持也成倍增加。

So from his high school to MIT, from MIT to Google, from Google to Stanford now to, like, San Jose, Silicon Valley, that the opportunities multiplied and the support multiplied.

所以我觉得你可以成为吸引导师的磁铁。

So so I think I think you can be a mentor magnet.

科迪没有做什么？

What did Cody not do?

他没有给我发邮件，让我做他的导师。

He didn't email me and ask me to be his mentor.

吸引导师的人不会发邮件说，嗨，克里斯。

Mentor magnets do not email people and say, hi, Chris.

你能当我的导师吗？

Could you be my mentor?

你好。

Hello.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们不会那样做。

Like, they don't do that.

他们会请求一次简短的交谈。

They ask for a short conversation.

他们会主动提供帮助。

They offer to be helpful.

他们会表达感激之情。

They express gratitude.

而且很多时候，这就会带来下一次对话。

And very often, that will lead to another conversation.

顺便说一句，他们还会和你一起做点事情。

What they also do, by the way, is work with you on something.

所以，能吸引导师的人往往习惯问，能不能在导师正在做的项目上帮上忙。

So mentor magnets have a habit of asking whether they can contribute to a project that the mentor is already working on.

当科迪再次提出要帮忙的时候，我一开始想算了，但后来我意识到我手头正好有个项目，是关于教小孩子培养毅力的。

When Cody reiterated his offer to help, I initially thought no, and then I realized I had a project that was ongoing where I was trying to teach little kids to be gritty.

我当时就想，哎呀，这太合适了。

And I thought, oh, this is perfect.

我就让科迪·科尔曼录个视频，讲讲他是怎么从非常卑微的起点，靠着热情和坚持走到今天的。

I'll have Cody Coleman record a video about how from very humble beginnings he got to where he got through passion and perseverance.

所以我们一起做了大概三个月的项目，差不多是……

So we worked on that project for about three months, which is about...

你知道，这就是为什么我叫他们“一季度的导师”。

Know, that's why I call them mentors for a season.

就像，你从为了某个原因而找导师开始。

Like, you you go from a mentor for a reason.

能不能从一次简短的对话，变成一段时间的导师关系？

Can I have a short conversation to a mentor for a season?

他做到了，而且之后他一直保持着那种感恩、好奇、很棒的状态。

He did that, and then he continued to just be, like, a grateful, curious, wonderful person.

我读他的博士论文时，那篇论文是关于人工智能的，数学部分我看不懂，所以基本上跳过了致谢部分。

When I read his PhD dissertation, which was on AI, and I didn't understand the math, so I pretty much skipped the acknowledgments.

我当时就想，哦，我知道我肯定看不懂这个。

I was like, oh, I know I'm not gonna understand this.

他的致谢部分有三页，而且是单倍行距。

His acknowledgments are three single spaced pages.

他感谢了200多人，都写了全名，比如，你知道，几十个队友或者同学。

He thanks by full name over 200 people, like, you know, dozens of teammates or fellow student.

比如，斯坦福计算机科学系有17位行政人员，他都一一写了全名感谢。

Like, there were 17 administrators of the computer science department at Stanford that he thanks by full name.

科迪·科尔曼是坚毅精神的典范。

Cody Coleman is a paragon of GRIT.

科迪·科尔曼是个导师磁铁，而且他完美诠释了，是的，你需要坚毅，但你也需要有主动性，去不断进入更好的环境。

Cody Coleman is a mentor magnet, and Cody Coleman is a perfect example of, like, yes, you need GRIT, but you also need to have the agency to navigate into better and better situations.

坚毅和你对处境及倦怠的新见解之间有什么关系？

What's the relationship between GRIT and your new insight around situations and burnout?

经历过倦怠之后，我实话实说吧。

So having experienced burnout, and I'll be I'll be honest.

我以前教倦怠的时候……

When I used to teach burnout...

因为倦怠这个词，是一位名叫克里斯蒂娜·马斯拉赫的心理学家创造的。

Because burnout, you know, burnout is a a word that a psychologist named Christina Maslach coined.

她当时在研究倦怠。

She was studying burnout.

它有非常具体的定义。

It has a very specific definition.

抑郁呢，你知道，就是整个人很消沉。

Depression is, you know, you're depressed.

你知道，它……

You know, it...

它是无处不在的。

It's pervasive.

而倦怠是专门针对工作的。

Burnout is specifically about work.

所以当你经历这种三重组合，就是精疲力竭，还有那种奇怪的疏离感，好像自己不太在场一样。

So so when you experience this trifecta of exhaustion and also, like, a weird sort of dissociation or like I'm not really present.

最后呢，还有一种无助感。

And finally, like a kind of a helplessness.

这就是倦怠的三重组合。

This is the trifecta of burnout.

倦怠就是这个样子。

That's what burnout is.

这是一种情绪状态，特点就是我觉得很累。

It's an emotional state characterized by I'm exhausted.

我觉得自己莫名其妙地跟工作脱节了。

I feel strangely not connected to my work anymore.

而且我做什么都没用，感觉自己无能为力。

And also nothing I do is working, and I have no agency.

所以这就是职业倦怠。

So that's what burnout is.

我会站在PPT前面，跟我的MBA学生和本科生讲职业倦怠，讲它的心理学，讲克里斯蒂娜·马斯拉克的研究，还有我们对职业倦怠的了解。

I would stand up in front of PowerPoint slides, and I would tell my MBA students, for example, and my undergraduates about burnout and the psychology of burnout and Christina Maslak's research and, you know, what we know about burnout.

对我来说，那完全是抽象的。

It was completely abstract to me.

我简直就像在讲火星一样。

I could have been talking about Mars.

我就说，你知道，火星是一颗行星。

I'm like, you know, Mars is a planet.

然后我自己也经历了职业倦怠。

And then I experienced burnout in my own life.

说实话，写这本书的时候，我就经历了职业倦怠。

I mean, if I'm completely honest, I experienced burnout while I was writing this book.

为什么？

And why?

首先，是什么？

Well, first, what?

我当时感到精疲力竭，一种奇怪的感觉，就是我在做这件事，一周七天都在做，从天亮前做到半夜后，但这又有点像心流状态的反面。

So, like, I was experiencing exhaustion, this weird sort of like, I'm sort of doing this, and I'm doing it seven days a week, and I'm doing it from before dawn to after midnight, but it's also kind of like the opposite of the flow state.

我就是……

I'm just like...

我奇怪地不在当下。

I'm like weirdly not in the moment.

还有一种真正的无助感。

And a real feeling of sort of like helplessness.

就是，我越来越努力。

Like, I work harder and harder.

但什么都没发生。

Nothing's happening.

所以我当时就处于这种情绪上的倦怠状态。

So I was experiencing this emotional state of burnout.

我觉得当时发生的情况，就是我们这次对话一开始聊到的那个问题。

What I think was happening is what we were talking about at the very beginning of this conversation.

事情进展不顺利。

It wasn't going well.

我只是更努力地尝试。

I just tried harder.

但还是……

And it's still...

就像，我只是在把坑挖得更深。

Like, I just kept digging the hole deeper.