AI诈骗、合租与学生贷款

你好。

Hello.

欢迎收听本期Moneybox播客。

Welcome to this Moneybox podcast.

为什么未婚同居未必会让你陷入财务困境。

Why living in unmarried bliss might not leave you in financial misery.

政府承诺为同居伴侣赋予新的权益。

The government promises new rights for cohabitees.

从7月1日起，北爱尔兰的家庭电费和燃气费将上涨。

Households in Northern Ireland will pay more for electricity and gas from the July 1.

议员们还被告知，英格兰的学生贷款问题，可以与汽车金融和PPI欺诈等重大金融丑闻相提并论。

And MPs are told that student loans in England can be compared to major financial scandals like car finance and PPI.

我采访了提出这一说法的人。

I talked to the man making this claim.

但首先，一位听众被诈骗者骗走了16.5万英镑，他向我们坦言，自己感到极度羞愧，如今身无分文。

But first, a listener who was manipulated into handing over a £165,000 to a thief tells us he's deeply embarrassed and has nothing left.

当我快没钱的时候，他们让我去贷款。

When I was running out of funds, they got me to get a loan.

贷了两万五千英镑，他说十五分钟内就把钱全还给我。

It was £25,000 went over, and he promised me all your money would be back to you within fifteen minutes.

结果什么都没发生。

Nothing happened.

这件事每天都让我备受煎熬。

This obviously is having an effect on me every day.

金钱盒节目的听众吉姆，有一天刷社交媒体时，看到一段视频，看起来像是一个知名理财专家上电视节目，讲的是投资赚钱的秘诀。

Moneybox listener Jim, who was scrolling through social media when he came across what seemed to be a revelation about investing and making money in a video of what looked like a TV programme featuring someone who appeared to be a well known money expert.

但其实这段视频是AI伪造的，是骗子用来骗钱的。

But it was AI generated and a fake made by thieves to steal money.

我们的记者汉娜·穆兰一直在调查这件事。

Our reporter Hannah Mullane has been looking into this.

汉娜，你是怎么从看一个网上视频，到最后被偷走十六万五千英镑的？

Hannah, how do you go from an online video to having a £165,000 stolen?

吉姆在社交媒体上看到一段视频，冒充的是大家信赖的马丁·刘易斯。

Well, Jim saw a video on social media pretending to be trusted face Martin Lewis.

他点了一个链接，注册了一个虚假的投资平台。

He clicked on a link and signed up to a fake investment platform.

他被安排了一位所谓的理财顾问，但实际上，他是在把自己的财务信息交给一个骗子。

He was assigned what he thought was a financial adviser, but in reality, he was opening up his finances to a thief.

他 basically 让我把自己的银行账户打开了。

So he basically got me to open my bank account.

我现在回想起来都不敢相信自己当时居然会那样做，但我完全信任他。

I couldn't believe myself I was doing at the time, but I trusted him.

所以他看了我账户里有多少钱。

So he looked at what I had in there.

第一笔大额转账大概是4600英镑。

First big payment was around about 4,600.

几天后，我又转了9500英镑。

A few days later, I put 9 and a half thousand.

那时候钱增长得简直让人难以置信。

And it was incredible how it was building.

他说我每年能从这上面赚二十万英镑。

He said my earning potential would be £200,000 a year from this.

我说，我其实只想把投进去的钱拿回来。

I said, well, I'd like to just actually recover the money I've invested.

他却说不行。

And he said, no.

说今天晚上钱就会到账。

That it'll be into your account by this evening.

第二天，什么动静都没有。

The next day, nothing.

他接连接到电话，每次都说要想拿回钱，就得再转一笔钱来验证身份。

He had phone call after phone call and was told if he wanted his money back, he'd need to verify his identity by transferring more money.

他们一遍又一遍地让他这么做，直到他把全部积蓄和一笔贷款，总共十六万五千英镑都转了出去。

They asked him to do this again and again until he'd transferred his life savings and a loan totaling £165,000

我下班回家后

I'd come home from work.

有时候一跟他打电话就持续两个小时

I'd be on the phone to him sometimes up to two hours.

真的特别耗人

It was really draining.

我其实陷进去了，因为我只想把最初投的钱拿回来

And I got locked in, really, because all I want to do is get my initial money back.

你能说说这段经历对你造成了什么影响吗

So tell me a bit about the impact that this experience has had on you.

我特别丢脸

Hugely embarrassed.

我把手机铃声换了，每次一响，就让我想起那个投资经纪人

I've had to change the ringtone on my phone because every time that rang, that reminded me of the investment broker.

我每个月还得还将近六百英镑的贷款

I've got to furnish a loan of nearly £600 a month.

我那次情绪崩溃，是在打那个求助热线的时候，一下子就没撑住。

The time I had a bit of a breakdown was on the phone to the sort of help line and that's when I sort of broke.

真不容易，我能理解这有多难。

I'm sorry, it's really hard.

我有个女儿。

I have a daughter.

作为父亲，谁都想尽全力帮孩子一把。

As a father, you want to help them out as much as you can.

比如说她要是打算结婚，你当然得支持，帮她一把。

You know, if she wants decides to get married, then you do that, support them on that side of things.

可我现在是什么都拿不出来了。

And I just haven't got anything.

从这里能听出来，这场骗局对吉姆的打击有多深。

Can hear how devastating the impact of this scam has been there for Jim.

但这场骗局持续了五个月，而吉姆并不是唯一一个受害者。

But this scam took place over five months, and Jim's not alone.

我联系过好几位听众，他们都像吉姆一样被骗了钱。

I've spoken to a number of listeners who have paid into scams just like this.

有个案例是，我和那人聊过之后，他还是坚信自己看到的AI视频是真实的。

I had one case of a man who even after a conversation with me still very much believed that the AI video that he had seen was real.

汉娜，吉姆的银行对此有什么回应？

And Hannah, what's Jim's bank had to say?

他们有没有帮他追回任何资金？

Have they recovered any of his money?

现在是有保护措施的。

Well, are protections in place.

从2024年10月起，根据新规定，建筑协会和银行必须赔偿符合条件的诈骗受害者最高8.5万英镑。但吉姆告诉我，他的银行确实曾介入，核实过他是否真的要转账，甚至还冻结了他的账户。

From October 2024, under new rules, building societies and banks have been required to reimburse victims of qualifying scams up to £85,000 But Jim told me that his bank did intervene to check he wanted to make these payments and even froze his account.

他的银行告诉我们，他们正在调查这个案子。

His bank told us that he's investigating the case.

至于真正的马丁·刘易斯，他向《Moneybox》节目表达了看法。

As for the real Martin Lewis, he gave Moneybox his reaction.

听到吉姆的遭遇，我真的很难过。

I'm really sorry to hear of Jim's situation.

我的问题是，这种事我听得太多了。

My problem is I've just heard it so many times.

我多希望这事儿还算罕见或惊人，可社交媒体上的诈骗广告已经肆虐十年了。

I wish this were radical or unusual, but it is now ten years of a wild west of scam adverts on social media.

但情况似乎一点都没好转。

And it does not seem to be getting any better.

那些科技巨头每年从诈骗分子身上赚取数十亿英镑。

And the big tech firms out there are making billions of pounds a year from the scammers.

可眼下，根本看不到尽头。

And there's still no real end in sight.

社交媒体的监管简直形同虚设。

We have absolutely flaccid regulation of social media out there.

刚才那是真正的马丁·刘易斯，你听得出汉娜有多沮丧，他有多愤怒。

Well that was the real Martin Lewis, and you could hear how frustrated Hannah and how upset he was.

他还说，这些诈骗行为发生的大型社交媒体平台，不仅没有及时制止，反而从中赚钱。

He also said that the big social media platforms where these thefts begin are not only not stopping them quickly enough, they're actually making money from them.

他们对你们怎么说的？

What have they said to you?

Meta，也就是Facebook和Instagram的母公司，表示他们不允许欺诈行为，一旦发现就会删除相关内容。

Well, Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, said it doesn't allow fraudulent activity and removes content when it's found.

他们还鼓励用户举报任何疑似虚假的内容。

It also encouraged users to report content that they think is fake.

政府告诉我们，他们已经投入了两亿五千万英镑，加强打击诈骗，并推动警方与行业合作，打击骗局，同时为受害者提供更多支持。

And the government told us that it had invested £250,000,000 to strengthen the fight against fraud, and that they're bringing together police and industry to disrupt scams and boost support for victims.

谢谢，Hannah。

Thanks Hannah.

接下来听到的是欺诈咨询委员会成员、专门处理诈骗案件的律师亚伦·乔汉。

Well listening to that is Aaron Chohan, member of the fraud advisory panel and a lawyer who specialises in fraud cases.

亚伦·乔汉，Meta告诉Hannah他们行动迅速，但显然还是不够快。

Aaron Chohan, Meta told Hannah it acts quickly, but clearly not quickly enough.

这些假视频都是由人工智能生成的。

These fake videos are generated by AI.

为什么不能用人工智能立刻识别并删除这些视频，让人根本看不到呢？

Why can't AI be used to spot them immediately and delete them before anyone can see them?

这些公司其实正在尝试采用人工智能，保罗。

Well, these organizations these companies are trying to adopt AI, Paul.

像吉姆这样的案例确实令人痛心，这些公司也意识到，人工智能被用来制造假内容的速度太快了，而用来阻止它的工具，骗子们也能同样快速地用上。

In the case of stories like Jim, which is so sorry to hear about, these companies that recognize that AI is so quick to use, and the same tools that are available to to those trying to stop it are available to the criminals who use it so quickly.

但这些公司确实在采用人工智能。

But these companies are adopting AI.

他们正努力寻找方法，投资自动化检测技术，分析行为模式，识别假视频和虚假广告。

They're trying to find ways to invest in looking at automated detection, behavioral patterns, spot the fake videos, the fake adverts.

问题在于这项技术的落地速度太慢了。

The problem is the speed of adoption of that tech.

他们还得走一遍采购流程。

They have to go through a procurement exercise.

他们还得考虑数据保护的问题。

They have to think about data protection.

而在这段时间里，犯罪分子却能迅速行动。

And in all that time, the criminals can move very quickly.

所以，是因为骗子比阻止他们的人更聪明、更快吗？

So is it is it simply the fact that the thieves are are cleverer and certainly quicker than those trying to stop them?

我不觉得他们更聪明。

I don't think they're cleverer.

我觉得他们只是更快。

I think they are quicker.

其实有很多非常聪明、经验丰富的专家正在努力阻止和干预诈骗行为。

I I there are some really wise, well experienced people trying to disrupt and intervene with fraud.

但显然效果并不好，对吧？

But but But it's clearly not working, is it?

根据反欺诈组织CIFAS的数据，欺诈案件每年还在增长6%。

It's growing by 6% a year according to CIFAS, the fraud prevention organization.

我们听说了，汉娜提到那2.5亿英镑的投入，还有Meta说自己在做什么。

And we've heard, you know, Hannah mentioned the £250,000,000 being spent, and Meta says what it's doing.

但诈骗还是在持续增长。

It is still growing.

那还能做点什么？

What can be done?

过去十年左右，反欺诈行业里其实已经做了大量教育工作。

Well, I think what we've seen in the industry over in the kind of counter fraud industry over the last ten years or so, or there's been a huge amount of education.

各种宣传教育活动随处可见。

We see lots of education campaigns.

英国金融业搞过一个‘停五秒’的活动。

UK finance had this take five campaign.

我们现在更需要做的是教大家怎么在关键时刻介入，提高警惕，尤其是在处理财务交易或生活中的各类资金往来时。

I think what we have to be moving to is educating people how to intervene, and essentially, just be more skeptical when they're in dealing with kind of transactions on finance, transactions in their life.

但我们已经听过，他们有多会忽悠人。

But we've heard how persuasive they are.

我的意思是，当时没人相信汉娜说那是假的，她还解释了原因。

I mean, one didn't believe Hannah when she told him it was a fake, and explained why.

当然，吉姆没听银行的，先生，尽管银行已经冻结了他的账户。

And of course, Jim didn't do what his bank did, sir, said, even though it froze his account.

银行还叫他去面谈，他坚持要求恢复账户，结果把剩下的钱全花光了。

Called him in for an interview, and he insisted they reopen the account, and then he spent the rest of his money.

我们当然可以告诉人们要多留个心眼，但难道不该靠技术手段来阻止这种事吗？

I mean, we can say to people, be skeptical, but really, doesn't it need something technological to stop this?

我觉得这事儿有两个方面。

Well, I think there are two sides.

没错。

Yes.

我们需要更好的技术升级。

We need better technological advancements.

科技公司必须能实时介入。

We need real time interventions by tech companies.

很多诈骗行为都源自那些在政府反欺诈策略中被忽视的科技平台。

A lot of fraud originates off tech platforms that set out in the government fraud strategy.

我们需要这些科技平台更快、更直接地介入，阻止线上和通信中的攻击。

So we need a quicker and a more direct kind of intervention happening from these tech platforms to stop the attacks online, but also in the communications.

但我认为，我们还得想办法让人们真正意识到我们面临的风险，以及该如何应对。

But I do think we need to try and find a way to get people to really understand the risks that we're facing, and how to intervene.

因为光有风险存在，人们很少会因此改变自己的看法。

Because we rarely we rarely change our view just because of risks exist.

我们得认真想想。

We have to think about it.

你可以去问一个人。

So you ask someone.

假如明天这种事发生在你身上，你会怎么办？

You know, this happened to you tomorrow, what would you do?

这样就能引发一场讨论，让人意识到：这种事也可能发生在我身上。

That starts a conversation about thinking about, actually, this could happen to me.

是的。

Yes.

跟你的家人聊聊，他们通常会及时阻止这类事情，对吧？

And talk to your your loved ones who often will will put a stop to it, won't they?

谢谢亚伦·肖汉。

Aaron Shohan, thanks.

请记住，告诉你的朋友和亲戚，马丁·刘易斯从不推荐任何投资，其他被这些骗子利用的名人也一样。

And please remember, tell all your friends and relatives, Martin Lewis never promotes investment, nor do any other celebrities used by these thieves.

如果你看到有人声称这些名人推荐赚钱项目，那一定是假的。

If you see something where they seem to promote a money making scheme, it is a fake.

如果你的银行告诉你别给他们钱，请相信银行的话。

And if your bank tells you not to give them money, please believe your bank.

过去24小时左右，政府公布了新计划，打算为未婚同居的情侣提供更多经济权益。

In the last twenty four hours or so, the government has published its plans to give couples living in unmarried bliss more financial rights.

在英格兰和威尔士，同居已成为增长最快的家庭形式，目前有超过三百五十万对伴侣选择同居但不结婚或不注册民事伴侣关系。

Cohabiting is the fastest growing family type in England and Wales, with more than three and a half million couples living together without being married or in a civil partnership.

但如果他们的关系破裂，或者其中一方去世，他们在英格兰和威尔士几乎没有任何法律权利去分割或继承对方的财产或资金，不管他们共同生活了多久，有没有孩子。

But if their relationship ends, or when one of them dies, they have almost no legal rights in England and Wales to share or inherit money or property belonging to the other, regardless of how long they've lived together or whether they have children.

这些新的政府提案就是要改变这种情况。

These new government proposals would change that.

不过首先，我们的记者乔·克拉纳采访了利物浦的一对伴侣，聊聊他们的关系和财务状况。

But first our reporter Jo Krasner has been speaking to one couple in Liverpool about their relationship and their money.

乔，我们是一对同居伴侣。

Jo We are a cohabiting couple.

我们已经一起生活了大约二十五年，说实话，我对这些权利并没有特别在意，也谈不上有多担心。

We've lived together for approximately twenty five years, and I'm not particularly strongly aware or concerned about those rights, to be honest.

也许我确实应该多留意一下这方面的问题。

Maybe I should be a little bit more aware of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我以前还真没怎么认真想过这个问题。

I can't say I've given it much thought so far.

也许我真该重视一下。

Maybe I should.

如果发生什么意外，你对自己的法律保障有限，这会让你担心吗？

And does it concern you if anything should happen that you have limited legal protection?

显而易见，答案应该是肯定的。

Obviously, the answer should be yes.

但不知为什么，我平时根本没怎么想过这个问题。

But for some reason, I don't give too much consideration to it.

不会。

No.

不好意思。

Sorry.

我想我得赶紧去了解一下这方面的规定了。

I think I'm I'm gonna have to look into this now.

你们有没有做过任何安排，比如签订过什么协议来明确你们的关系？

Have you made any provision at all, any agreement regarding your status?

我们已经立了遗嘱。

We've got our wills.

我们把所有财产都留给对方，如果我们都走了，就留给侄子们。

We made our wills where we leave everything to each other and then to our nephews should we both die.

目前我们就做到这一步了。

So that's as far as we've got so far.

我觉得就算我们分开了，彼此的安排也还算公平，根本不需要靠法律来界定。

And I think if we did split up, it would still be a sort of a a fair exchange without the need to refer to a legal framework.

你有没有想过当新娘或者新郎？

So have you ever wanted to be a bride or a groom?

你知道的。

Oh, you know.

结婚的念头我确实想过。

The sword has crossed my mind.

但好像只有我一个人这么想。

But I seem to be alone in this.

我们依然期待着那一天的到来。

We're still looking forward to that day.

从遗嘱到婚礼钟声，这就是一段二十五年关系的片刻时光。

Well, from wills to wedding bells, a minute in the life of a twenty five year relationship.

现在和我一起在伦敦演播室的是乔安·爱德华兹。

Well, with me in the London studio is Joanne Edwards.

她是福斯特律师事务所的合伙人，同时也是Resolution——全国家庭律师协会——的国家委员会成员。

She's a partner with Forster's and on the National Committee of Resolution, which is the National Family Lawyers Association.

乔·爱德华兹，也许我们真该好好想想这个问题。

Jo Edwards, perhaps we should think about it.

对于这三千五百多万对伴侣来说，考虑这些事有多重要？

How important is it for those three and a half million couples to think about these things?

这太重要了，保罗。

It's terribly important, Paul.

Resolution很高兴看到这些提议被提出来，正是因为太多人根本没想过这些问题——无论是分手时的权利，还是未结婚的一方在伴侣去世后才发现，自己竟然没有任何法律权益，而那时往往已经太晚了。

So resolution, we've been delighted to see these proposals brought forward precisely because not enough people do think about it, whether rights on separation or rights on the first death when they're not married and they find out all too starkly, all too late that they don't have rights.

当然，这对伴侣已经在一起二十五年了，有些人确实相信，过了某个阶段，就会出现所谓的‘普通法婚姻’，从而自动获得某些权利。

Of course, that couple has been together for twenty five years, and some people do believe, don't they, that after a certain time, there's such a thing as what they call a common law marriage where you do get right.

没错。

Absolutely.

尽管已经开展了多次宣传教育，但‘普通法婚姻’这个误解依然根深蒂固。

And it's something that despite successive education campaigns, that common law marriage myth still persists.

令人担忧的是，高达百分之四十七的同居者仍然相信这一点。

Worryingly, around forty seven percent of people, even in cohabiting relationships, still believe that.

这凸显了问题的严重性，也说明我们不能简单地一味说：要么结婚，要么接受教育。

So it highlights the extent of the problem and why we can't just keep saying either people need to get married or they need to be educated.

在这些刚刚公布的最新方案中，政府打算如何界定‘同居伴侣’呢？

Now in these new plans just published, how does the government propose to define what a cohabiting couple is?

这一点非常关键，我希望人们能认真细读其中的条款，因为确实有人担心，国家可能会在没有足够稳定性的前提下，强行赋予人们并不想要的权利。

Well, is really important, and I think something that I hope people do grapple with the detail of, because I know there is concern about this prospect of the state seeming to impose rights that people don't want without any degree of permanence.

但政府明确表示，这必须是两个人以伴侣身份共同生活，并建立持久的家庭关系。

But it's something that the government says very clearly, this would have to be two people living together as a couple in an enduring family relationship.

如果对这一点有疑问，法院会参考一系列因素来判断。

There will be a checklist of factors that the court would take into account if there are any doubt about that.

根据这项提议，申请资格要求至少共同生活三年，但如果双方育有孩子，则不在此限。

And in terms of eligibility, it would have to be a minimum of three years cohabitation under the proposals, except if the couple had a child or children together.

那同居呢？

And what about living together?

说实话，同居的定义有时候也很模糊，毕竟情侣之间的关系是流动的，对吧？

I mean, even that's difficult to define sometimes, as couples are fluid, aren't they?

有些人可能搬在一起住，但还保留着原来的家，或者每周只去住几晚，后来又多住几天。

People might move in together, but keep their previous home, or visit a few nights a week, and then a few more.

那这三年的期限，到底从哪天开始算？

When would that three year clock start?

这确实是个关键问题，显而易见。

It's an it's an important point, obviously.

这部分问题部分可以通过那些判断因素来解决，比如关系是否具有长期性、双方是否有性关系，以及外界如何看待他们的关系。

It's one that partly the checklist of factors would deal with, and it would be about a degree of permanence, whether they're in a sexual relationship, what the public perception of their relationship is.

其实，这方面我们已经有法律明文规定了，比如在收养问题上。

It's actually something we've got in legislation already, for example, around adoption.

而且很多其他国家也早就有了类似的法律，早就应对过这些问题了。

And also plenty of other countries have this legislation already, so have grappled with this.

是的。

Yes.

比如在苏格兰，情况就不一样，对吧？

And it's different in Scotland, for example, isn't it?

当然，不用细说，那些在听的苏格兰人可能会说，我们早就有一些规定了。

Without going into the all the Scottish people listening saying we've already got some

的一部分。

of it.

已经二十年了。

For twenty years.

对。

Yes.

你可以想象，目前一旦生效，可能会有三年的承诺期。

And you could imagine, currently, there'll be possibly be three year commitment passes when it clicks in.

但也可能有人待上两年十一个月就离开，过一阵子再回来。

But there could be people who leave after two years, eleven months, and then come back maybe.

确实有可能。

There could be.

这会是个需要仔细斟酌的细节，但你说得对。

Mean this will be detail that needs to be looked at, but that is right.

我觉得关键在于，人们得先意识到这一点，自己决定怎么定义彼此的关系，然后私下达成协议。

I I think what's important here is that people just need to be aware and decide how they want to frame their relationship and then regulate it between themselves.

如果他们符合标准，选择进入政府所说的同居框架，那他们对共同财产或住房有哪些权利呢？

And if they do meet the criteria and enter into what the government is calling a cohabitation framework, briefly what rights do they get over each other's money or the home they share?

根据提案，他们的权利远比婚姻关系要有限得多。

So under the proposals, far more limited than if they were married.

婚姻仍然是政府希望优先保障的，但同居框架只覆盖最基本的需求。

So marriage will remain what government wants to prioritize, but it will be focused on their basic needs.

这是一个基本的权利框架，目的是确保没有人会在非婚关系结束时陷入困境。

It's a basic framework of rights, but making sure that nobody leaves a unmarried relationship in a position of need.

但他们明确排除了遗产税。

But they do specifically in exclude inheritance tax.

他们加入了关于一方去世后另一方能获得什么的条款，尽量让未结婚伴侣的待遇更接近夫妻。

They include provisions for when one of them dies about what you might get and treating them more more more like married couples.

但他们排除了遗产税，因为这属于财政部的职责范围。

But they exclude inheritance tax because that's a matter for the treasury.

这看起来是不是有点荒谬？

Isn't that that seems a bit silly to

说到底，大家都会觉得这事还是得好好研究一下。

put it Well, one would imagine that that's something that would need to be looked at.

所以目前，我们还是很感激有这些提案出来。

So for now, we're grateful that any proposals are out there.

遗产继承规则早就该重新审视了，尤其是考虑到现在有三百五十万对伴侣。

The intestacy rules have needed looking at for a long time given the 3,500,000 couples

抱歉打断一下，如果你没有遗嘱，而那对伴侣有遗嘱，那没结婚的情侣如果没有遗嘱，新规则下他们能获得的权利会比现在多。

you have it's sorry to interrupt, if you don't have a will, that couple did have a will, if you don't have a will, unmarried couples will get more rights under those rules than they'd have at

在当下。

the moment.

确实会。

They will.

目前大约只有五分之一的未婚伴侣立了遗嘱，而新规则下，没立遗嘱的人反而能获得更多的权利。

So only about one in five unmarried couples have wills, and one will get more rights under the new rules.

但同样，这背后会有资格条件。

But again, there'll be qualifying criteria.

目前讨论的方案是，必须共同生活满五年才能符合资格，如果有孩子，则只需两年。

So the proposal what's being looked at is having to live together for five years before you qualify under those rules, or for two years if you've got children.

所以，光是没立遗嘱，并不自动意味着你能获得这些权利。

So it won't be automatic that you would qualify under the intestacy rules.

乔，我们已经聊这个不知道多久了。

And Jo, we've been talking about this for goodness knows how long.

终于要来了，或者至少马上就要来了。

It's finally here, or at least it's coming.

简单说一下。

Briefly.

对。

Yeah.

简短说一下，这法律什么时候能改？

Briefly, when can we see the law change?

但愿很快就能有进展。

Well, fingers crossed, soon.

咨询期很短，十周时间非常紧。

It's a short consultation, ten weeks is very short.

据说只要一有议会时间，就会提交法案，议会通过后，许多相关机构都会参与进来，特别是我们要重点关注家庭暴力受害者，确保他们的权益得到保障。

We're told as soon as parliamentary time allows, there'll be a bill laid before parliament resolution and lots of interested organisations will be engaging with that particularly important we think about victims of domestic abuse and bringing their rights to the fore.

感谢Resolution的乔·爱德华兹。

Jo Edwards of Resolution, thanks.

你可以在 gov.uk 上找到这项咨询，搜索‘同居关系公平终结’即可。

And you can find that consultation, A fairer end to relationships on gov.uk, just search cohabitation consultation.

正如乔所说，这项咨询将在8月14日截止，还有十周时间。

And closes in ten weeks, as Jo said, on the August 14.

北爱尔兰有数十万户家庭即将面临电费上涨。

Hundreds of thousands of households in Northern Ireland are about to face higher energy bills.

本周，当地最大的电力和燃气供应商宣布，从7月1日起上调价格。

The biggest suppliers of electricity and gas announced this week that prices are going up on July 1.

《Moneybox》记者尼阿姆·麦克德莫特在我们这里，尼阿姆，具体有哪些变化？

Moneybox reporter Niamh Mc Dermott is with us Niamh, what's changing.

从下个月开始，北爱尔兰最大的电力供应商Power NI，客户超过五十万户，将把每单位电价上调超过6%。

So from next month, Power NI, Northern Ireland's largest electricity supplier with more than half a million customers, is raising its unit price by just over 6%.

对于普通家庭来说，每月大约多花5英镑。

For a typical household, that's about £5 extra a month.

对于同时使用燃气的用户，Firmus Energy在部分地区涨价近16%，每月账单增加约11英镑。

For those who also use gas, firmness energy is increasing prices in some areas by almost 16%, adding around £11 a month to bills.

两家公司都表示，这主要是因为中东冲突导致全球能源成本上涨。

Both companies say it's down to rising global energy costs because of the conflict in The Middle East.

但北爱尔兰三分之二的家庭用的是取暖油，而不是天然气来供暖，他们早就经历了大幅涨价。

But two thirds of households in Northern Ireland use heating oil, don't they, to heat their homes, not gas, and they've already seen huge price rises.

今年早些时候，正如我们报道的那样，北爱尔兰议会批准向大约34万户低收入家庭发放100英镑补贴。

Earlier this year, as we reported, Stormont approved a £100 payment to about 340,000 lower income households to help.

他们拿到这笔钱了吗？

Have they got that yet?

还没有。

No, not yet.

这笔补贴预计要到今年晚些时候才发放，但具体日期还没确定。

The payment isn't expected until later this year, although there's still no confirmed date.

一旦这个计划启动，符合条件的人需要在线申请，通过审核的会收到一张100英镑的预付券。

When the scheme does open though, people will need to apply online, and those who qualify will receive a £100 prepaid voucher.

不过，是有一定条件的。

There is a criteria though.

家庭的总收入必须低于三万英镑，或者正在领取某些福利，比如养老金信贷。

Households must have a combined income of below £30,000 or be receiving certain benefits, including pension credit.

此外，未来三年，北爱尔兰每户家庭每年都能从电费中减免三十英镑。

Also, every household in Northern Ireland should get £30 off their electricity bill each year for the next three years.

这项措施原定七月开始，但现在推迟到了九月。

That was meant to start in July, but it's now been delayed until September.

谢谢，尼娅。

Thanks, Niamh.

英格兰一些学生贷款的高利率，在议会中被比作过去的金融误导丑闻。

High rates of interest charged on some student loans in England have been likened in Parliament to past financial misselling scandals.

如果银行以这种方式销售金融产品，你会不会期待金融行为监管局立刻介入？

If a bank sold a financial product in this way, would you expect the FCA to be all over them?

我马上想到汽车贷款或保险还款保障丑闻，这些事件确实造成了你刚才描述的那种后果，格雷迪先生。

I'm thinking immediately of the car loan scheme or payment the payment protection insurance scandal, produced exactly the outcome you you described, mister Grady.

这是菲利普·奥杰爵士在本周开始的财政委员会学生贷款听证会上，回应议员约翰·格雷迪提问时说的。

That was Sir Philip Orger answering a question from MP John Grady on the first day of a Treasury Committee inquiry into student loans that began this week.

他们讨论的是英格兰的一种名为计划二的学生贷款，影响了近四百万名毕业生。

They were discussing student loans in England called Plan two, which affect nearly 4,000,000 graduates.

与其他学生贷款不同，这类贷款的利息可能远高于通胀率。

Unlike other student loans, the interest charged on them can be well above the rate of inflation.

目前利率最高可达6.2%，但政府承诺从九月起将上限定为6%。

Currently it's up to 6.2%, though the government's pledge that will be capped at 6% from September.

毕业生每年收入超过约29400英镑的部分，需额外缴纳9%的税款作为还款。

Graduates are charged 9% extra tax on any earnings that exceed around £29,400 a year.

通常这个还款门槛会随通胀每年调整，但财政大臣在去年秋季的预算中宣布，未来三年将冻结这一门槛，这意味着更多毕业生需要还款，而且还款金额也会更高。

And that repayment threshold normally arises each year with inflation, but the chancellor announced in last autumn's budget it would be frozen for three years, meaning more graduates will pay, and those that do will pay more.

活动人士表示，这改变了他们当初贷款时同意的条款和条件，而那时他们大多才刚满18岁。

Campaigners say that's a change to the terms and conditions they agreed when they took out the loan, often of course at just 18 years old.

《金钱信箱》的听众弗雷迪有一笔计划二贷款，收入也不错，但至今欠款仍比当初借的多。

Moneybox listener Freddie has a Plan two loan and a well paid job, but still owes more than he borrowed.

我2015年毕业时的贷款总额是31873英镑，到上个月已经涨到了39463英镑，增加了将近8000英镑，而我已经还了整整十年。

So the original loan amount when I graduated in 2015 was £31,873 as of last month is now £39,463, which is an increase of just under £8,000 and I've been paying off the last ten years.

每个月工资到账前，我都能看到这笔扣款。

I see it every month coming off my payslip.

上个月我刚还了四百多英镑，这笔钱本来可以用来付房贷，或者为将来组建家庭做准备。

The last one I paid was just over £400, which realistically could be go towards something like a mortgage for a house or possibly start a family for the next few years.

但背负着这笔债务真的很沉重，当你规划人生时，不得不把它考虑进去。

But having that is quite a burden to carry and something you have to consider when thinking about these things when you're sort of forecasting your life.

整个制度的设计让人感觉别无选择，只能继续还钱，而这正是你十七八岁签合同时根本没意识到的。

Whole way it's set up is sort of not feel trapped, you feel sort of no other options apart from paying this and something like say you signed up to when you were seventeen eighteen.

刚才听到这些的是菲利普·奥格爵士，我们之前在议会听证会上短暂听过他的发言。

Well listening to that is Sir Philip Auger, who we heard briefly earlier giving evidence to that parliamentary inquiry.

奥格爵士，我们刚才听到了弗雷迪的情况。

Sir Philip, we heard the impact on Freddie there.

他还款已经十年了，但欠款还是比毕业时多了八千英镑。

He's been paying off his loan for ten years, but it's still £8,000 more than when he left university.

而他说的这笔钱，本来可以用来买房或者养家。

And that money that he says could be used for a mortgage or having a family.

你提到这让人想起一些学生根本没搞清楚自己签了什么就贷款的误导销售丑闻。

You said this brought to mind miss selling scandals with students not really understanding what they were signing up for.

真有那么严重吗？

Is it really that bad?

早上好，保罗。

Good morning, Paul.

学生贷款跟汽车贷款、还款保障保险类似，都是条款虽然藏在小字里，但借钱的时候没人明确告诉借款人。

The parallel with car loans and payment protection insurance schemes and the student loans is that in each case, the terms and conditions, although you can find them buried in the small print, weren't made explicitly clear to borrowers at the time they took on the loan.

就像你刚才说的，学生往往才十七八岁，人生第一次处理这么大的财务决定，贷款方——也就是政府——必须清楚明白地告知，这些条款未来可能会变。

And in the case, as you said earlier, in the case of students often 17, 18 making their first significant financial transaction of their lives, it's very important that the issuer of the loan, in this case the government, is absolutely upfront and explicit that the terms and conditions might change in future.

你是说这些条款根本没解释清楚吗？

And are you saying that those terms and conditions weren't explained?

比如，你得先赚到六万四千英镑以上，才开始还贷款，之前收入再高也还不上。

Mean, for example, you've got to be earning at least over £64,000 to even begin to pay the loan down until till you earn that much.

这笔钱只会越滚越多，对吧？

It just grows, doesn't it?

这些内容有没有明确告诉过他们？

Were in was any of that made clear to them?

还是说，这正是你所指出的问题？

Or is that the problem you're identifying?

这正是我所指出的问题。

That is the problem I'm identifying.

在某些文件里确实写明了贷款利率和还款门槛未来可能会调整。

Somewhere somewhere in the documentation it is clear that the the loan rates, the interest rates and the repayment thresholds might change in the future.

但这些信息并没有清楚地传达给这些相对缺乏金融经验的借款人。

But that isn't that isn't spelled out to what are relatively unsophisticated borrowers.

真正需要改变的，就是这一点。

That's the thing that really has to change.

当你向议会说明，尽管有相关条款，贷款条件却以一种近乎隐蔽的方式被修改了，你当时是什么意思？

And when you when you tell parliament that the terms and conditions had been changed in what I think you called was an almost sneaky way despite those clauses.

你这话具体是指什么？

What did you mean?

那之后它们又是怎么以一种几乎隐蔽的方式被改的呢？

How have they been changed since in an almost sneaky way?

用合同小字里的条款来修改那些像弗雷迪说的那样影响重大的条件，这本身就有点偷偷摸摸的意味。

Well, it's almost sneaky to use a clause in the small print to change the terms and conditions that have such a serious impact as Freddie outlined.

但我心里其实有个具体的例子。

But I had got one specific thing in mind.

上一次预算案里，还款门槛的调整确实写在了财政部的预算文件中。

In the last budget, the changes to the repayment threshold were actually specified in the Treasury, in the budget document.

就是他们宣布要冻结那个门槛的时候。

That was when they said they were going to be frozen.

没错。

That's right.

但关于利率门槛冻结的调整——这对二类贷款人同样关键——预算文件里却完全没提。

The changes to the freeze in the interest rate threshold, which is actually just as important for Plan two borrowers, there was no mention of that at all.

这不就是那个更高利率开始生效的临界点吗？

That's the level at which the higher rate of interest kicks in or applies in full, isn't it?

这个也冻结了，因为我觉得它和还款门槛挂钩，但他们根本没提这一点。

And that's also been frozen, because I think it's linked to the repayment threshold, but they didn't say that.

你刚才说这是‘偷偷摸摸’或者‘几乎偷偷摸摸’的做法。

And you're saying sneaky or almost sneaky.

那现在有什么办法吗？

So what are the options?

我的意思是，事情都已经发生了。

I mean, has all happened.

这些事早就是过去的事了，当初刚出台的时候就定了。

It's all, you know, way back in the past when these things happened initially.

政府能为这批计划下的四百万毕业生做点什么？

What can the government do for the 4,000,000 graduates on this plan too?

他们该不该把利率降下来？

Should they lower the interest rate?

这非常棘手，因为财政状况实在不乐观。

It's extremely tricky because the public finances are in a parlour state.

涉及的金额简直大得惊人。

The sums involved are absolutely enormous.

对借款人来说已经够多了，但再乘上四百万这个数字，放在公共财政的背景下就更吓人了。

They're enormous for the borrowers, but multiply them over by the 4,000,000 and they're enormous in the context of the public finances.

比如，撤销上一份预算中的那些调整，光是针对2022年入学的学生，就要花掉13亿英镑。

Reversing the changes in the last budget, for example, would cost £1,300,000,000 for twenty twenty two starters alone.

再把这个数字乘以整个十年的毕业生人数，

Multiply that out for all of the ten years that Plan

那简而言之，他们该怎么做呢？

two So is briefly, what should they do?

我觉得他们应该退一步，认真想想高等教育中公共补贴和私人负担之间到底该怎么平衡。

Well, think they should stand back and take a look at actually whether what is the right balance between the public and private subsidy for higher education.

但可能还是得做个姿态出来。

But there's probably a need to make a gesture.

我认为最简单、对纳税人最经济、对学生最有帮助的姿态，就是一次性提高还款门槛。

I think probably the simplest gesture, maybe one that's most cost effective for the taxpayer and beneficial for the student, would be to allow to increase the repayment threshold as a one off.

非常感谢菲利普·奥格爵士。

Thank you very much Sir Philip Auger.

其实有个特别有用的网站，叫 discoveruni.gov.uk，我也是最近才发现的，如果你正打算上大学的话。

And there's a very useful website actually at discoveruni.gov.uk that I've only just discovered if you're thinking of going to university.

教育部告诉我们，他们已经注意到这些担忧，并表示学生贷款的还款与收入挂钩，到期后未还清的余额和利息都会被免除。

The Department for Education told us it recognises the concerns and says student finance has repayments linked to income and any outstanding balances and interest are written off at the end of its time.

好了，我们今天的时间也到此为止了。欢迎大家去 moneyboxbbc.co.uk 给我们留言，分享你的理财想法——别把我们给忘了啊。

Well, that's the end of our time too, and you can write off to us not write us off, I hope on moneyboxbbc.co.uk with all your financial thoughts.

你也可以通过 WhatsApp 发消息或语音留言到 (330) 678-3183。

You can also send a message or a voice note on WhatsApp, (330) 678-3183.

我们每一条都会看、每一条都会听，说不定你就能像弗雷迪和吉姆那样，被选上出现在节目里。

We do read and listen to them all, and you never know, you might get on the show like Freddie and Jim did.

别忘了，每周六中午十二点，你都可以在 BBC 第四广播电台第一时间收听我们的节目。

And remember, you can hear the programme first and live at midday every Saturday on BBC Radio four.

本期节目团队包括汉娜·穆兰、乔·克拉纳和尼阿姆·麦克德莫特。

In this podcast, the team was Hannah Mullane, Jo Krasner, and Niamh Mc Dermott.

录音师：西蒙·里基茨。

Studio manager, Simeon Ricketts.

我们的编辑是莎拉·罗杰斯。

Our editor was Sarah Rogers.

我是保罗·刘易斯，本节目由BBC新闻旗下“金钱与工作”团队为BBC Sounds制作。

I'm Paul Lewis, and this was a BBC News money and work production for BBC Sounds.

接下来，进入我们的广告环节。

And now, your toast.

为什么一些出色的商业创意最终却失败了？

Why do some brilliant business ideas come a cropper?

我是肖恩·法灵顿，在《Toast》新一季中，我会深入探讨五个曾经风光一时、却未能持久的品牌、企业或神奇产品。

I'm Sean Farrington, and in a new series of Toast, I'll be looking at five more brands, businesses, and wonder products which offered a lot but didn't stick around.

比如票价只要20便士的平价影院，还有我们学生时代都用过的那种卫生纸。

Including a budget cinema selling tickets for 20p and the toilet paper we knew from school.

我记得以前总担心会在那种绝对不想被纸割到的地方被纸划伤。

I remember worrying about getting paper cuts in an area that you wouldn't wish to be getting a paper cut.

看看我们能从它们的消失中学到什么。

Finding out what we can learn from their disappearance.

来自BBC广播四台的《Toast》。

Toast from BBC Radio four.

先在BBC Sounds上收听。

Listen first on BBC Sounds.