是时候回归以用户为中心的设计了吗？TF Chan谈Collect 2026

工艺，是一种奢侈还是一种必需？

Craft, a luxury or a necessity?

在快速制造、人工智能和即时满足的时代，工艺是一种令人耳目一新的反衬。

In an age of rapid manufacturing, AI, and instant gratification, craft is a refreshing counterpoint.

它指的是那些物理形态或制作方式体现人类双手与智慧的物品的创造。

It's the creation of objects whose physical form or means of making reflect the human hand and human intelligence.

以这种方式制作能将人们凝聚在一起，支持经济，并保护地方文化。

Making in such a way brings people together, supporting economies, and preserving local culture.

这不仅是关于形式与功能，更是关于故事的讲述。

It's about storytelling as much as it's about form and function.

这是《Monocle On Design》。

This is Monocle On Design.

工艺的作用在于，将那些耗费了时间、技艺与用心制作的物品带入我们的生活。

What craft does is it introduces objects into our lives that really have taken time and expertise and care to produce.

这是《Monocle On Design》，一档探讨从建筑与工艺到家具与平面设计等一切话题的节目。

This is Monocle On Design, a show where we discuss everything from architecture and craft to furniture and graphic design.

我是尼克·马内塞。

I'm Nick Manese.

在今天的节目中，收藏型工艺能否将人性化的手工重新带回设计中？

On today's program, can collectible craft put the human hand back into design?

我们将与策展人TF Chan探讨Collect 2026背后的宗旨与政治意义。

We discuss the purpose and politics behind collect 2026 with director TF Chan.

此外，我们还将讨论汽车中把手和按钮的回归。

Plus, our take on the return of handles and buttons in cars.

所有这些内容，尽在《Monocle On Design》。

All that coming up on Monocle On Design.

格蕾丝·查尔顿，Monocle设计与时尚副主编。

Grace Charlton, Monocle's associate editor of design and fashion.

你正在为时装周做准备，你正在为时装周做准备。

You're you're gearing up you're gearing up for fashion weeks.

是的。

Yeah.

正在准备中。

Gearing up.

你瞧，我们刚才提到了两件事。

You're well, this is the we've we've just touched on two things there.

是的，时装周就要来了。

So, yes, fashion week's coming.

我们可能会在接下来的节目中深入探讨这个话题。

We're probably gonna get to that in the coming episodes.

但我们现在正在准备，因为乔尼·艾维发布了一款新车，或者至少发布了新车的内饰设计。

But we're gearing up because Johnny Ive has released a new car or at least released the interior design of a new car.

给我们讲讲它吧。

Tell us a little bit about it.

是的。

Yeah.

这是和法拉利合作的。

It's with Ferrari.

这是首款名为法拉利Luce的电动车的内饰。

It's the interiors of the very first electric car called Ferrari Luce.

我喜欢法拉利Lite。

I like Ferrari Lite.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是意大利语中‘光’的意思。

I think that's Italian for light.

它由乔尼·艾维和澳大利亚杰出设计师马克·诺森共同领导的设计工作室打造。

And it's designed by a love from the design studio that is run by Johnny Ive and Australian excellence, Mark Neuson.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我知道你很喜欢车。

I know you like cars.

你现在到了一个年纪，突然开始更关注儿童节路上看到的兰博基尼了。

You're at an age where you suddenly care a lot more about the Lamborghinis we spot on children's day.

我经常看到一辆迈凯伦。

It's a McLaren that I repeatedly spot.

这是一辆漂亮的橙色迈凯伦。

This is gorgeous orange McLaren.

我不知道它从哪儿来的。

I don't know where this has come from.

我好像刚过三十岁，突然就开始特别在意汽车了。

It's like I hit 30, and then all of a sudden, cars I I really cared about cars.

我以前是个骑自行车到处跑的人。

I'm a guy that used to ride his bike everywhere.

我为此感到自豪。

Prided myself on that.

现在我满脑子想的都是坐进那辆迈凯伦的驾驶座。

Now all I can think about is getting behind the wheel of that McLaren.

但我认为这其中有一种我特别反感的元素，就是那种‘男孩的玩具’。

But I think there is an element I I hate it so much, but, like, toys for boys.

是的。

And Yeah.

这些超级跑车真的深深吸引了我。

They are just really speaking to me, these supercars.

你看看这款全新法拉利的设计，如我所说，他们目前只公布了内饰。

You look at the design of this new Ferrari, and they've only revealed the interiors, as I said.

整个设计理念是采用大量机械按钮、旋钮、拨动开关，旨在挑战电动车必须由大尺寸触控屏主导的观念。

And the whole idea is that there's lots of mechanical buttons and dials and toggles and switches with the idea that they're basically trying to challenge the perception or the idea that electric cars need to be dominated by big touch screens.

所以我们又回到了那种可以按压、拉动、推动来操控汽车的方式。

So we've kind of gone back to, yeah, having things you can press and pull and push to get the car going.

这正是我在说的‘男孩的玩具’。

This is where I'm talking about toys for boys.

因为这辆车的顶棚上有一个按钮，上面直接写着‘弹射’，设计意图是让你拉动或拨动它，就能加速。

Because on the ceiling of this car, they have a button that literally says launch on it, and the whole idea being that you can pull it toggle there, you can pull it and go faster.

你对此怎么看？

Where do you land on this?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得那些旋钮超可爱的。

I think the dials are super cute.

我不确定。

I don't know.

这感觉像是非常男性化的行为才会在意的。

This it it feels like deeply male behavior to care about.

等等。

But hang on.

但是你你你，我觉得这个在节目里都提过了。

But but you're you're you're I I think it's even been on this show.

你可是个广为人知的乘客公主。

You are a well documented passenger princess.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，实际上操作这么多旋钮和开关的人是你吧。

Surely, you're the one actually that ends up operating so many of these toggles and switches.

不。

No.

确实如此。

It's true.

而且，我也很高兴看到这一点。

And also, I was glad to see that.

当然，我明白，我们确实不需要生活中再多出更多屏幕了。

Obviously, I I get it, and, you know, we don't need more screens in our lives.

我不希望在车里看到一个巨大的iPad。

I don't wanna see a huge iPad in the car.

但CarPlay体验怎么样？

But how good is CarPlay?

你知道，通过蓝牙连接手机，让谷歌地图显示在前方，还能用Spotify，这体验有多好？

You know, how good is it to just Bluetooth your phone and have the Google Maps up in front of you and, you know, be able to go on Spotify?

我觉得拥有这些开关和按钮确实不错，能稍微回归一下实体控制，但我们也绝不会倒退到使用纸质地图。

Like, I agree that it's nice to have, like, the toggles and the buttons and bring that back a little bit, but also we're not gonna regress to paper maps.

我不希望在高速公路上还纠结于下一个路口在哪，你知道的，拿着一张巨大的

I don't wanna be, like, on the motorway wondering where the intersection is, you know, with a huge

纸质地图。

paper map.

巨大的纸质地图。

Huge paper map.

我知道我想要什么。

I do I I you know what I want?

我想知道有多少段关系因为有了苹果CarPlay而得以挽救。

I wonder how many relationships have been saved by having Apple CarPlay.

我的意思是，你和你长期忍受的男朋友正在南非。

I mean, were just in South Africa with your long suffering boyfriend.

是的。

Mhmm.

再说一遍，这件事我们在这档节目里已经记录过了。

Again, we're documented on this show.

你当时负责导航。

You were in charge of navigating.

你觉得车里的CarPlay和地图功能有帮助吗？

Do you think having CarPlay and maps in the car helped?

改变游戏规则的东西。

Game changer.

因为我们在一起已经很久了。

Because we've been together for so long.

在CarPlay还没普及的时候我们就在一起了。

We've been together before CarPlay was in the grid.

我们以前经常从伦敦开车去爱丁堡。

And we used to drive from London to Edinburgh regularly.

以前因为错过出口之类的事情，我们吵过很多次架，情况很糟糕。

And the number of fights we got into because of, like, turn offs being missed or something like that, it was bad.

我拿到驾照的时候还没有智能手机，这真把我年龄暴露了。

I got my license before I had a smartphone, which really dates me.

我以前的做法是，打印出目的地的导航路线，然后贴在方向盘前面。

What I used to do is I used to print out directions for where I was going and just tape it to the front of my steering wheel.

所以上面会写着：上基瓦纳高速公路，从阿尔卡莫斯出口下，等等等等。

So it would be like, take the Kwinana Freeway, get off, Alkamos, blah blah blah blah blah.

我还会在方向盘上清楚地写下左转、右转，然后一步步按清单行驶，直到到达目的地。

And I would literally have lefts and rights written down on my steering wheel and just kinda work through the checklist to get to where I was going.

这方法确实管用，但again，你就是没有那种便利性。

And it it did work okay, but again, it's you kinda don't have that ease.

但同样，我们刚才聊到你的南非冒险，你也遇到过车子太智能带来的问题。

But equally, and we've just been talking about your South African adventure, you also had some issues with the car that was potentially too smart.

是的。

Yep.

我在南非的时候，根本没因为方向问题和人吵过架。

I was in South Africa, and we didn't have any fights about directions.

但我们确实因为他在开车时偶尔熄火，然后又无法重新启动而争吵过，因为

But we did have fights about him stalling the car occasionally and then not being able to start it again because was

这车太智能了。

smart it was smart tech.

这车太智能了。

It was smart tech.

所以我坐在前排的副驾驶位上。

So I was sitting in the passenger princess seat at the front.

我们当时停在一个漂亮的葡萄酒庄园停车场，那里相当高档。

We were in the parking lot of a beautiful wine estate, which is quite fancy.

然后他像个急躁的伦敦司机，为了抢在另一辆车前面占个停车位，突然变道，结果停车时熄火了。

And then he was being a little bit of a pushy London driver, he swerved to go and quickly grab a parking spot in front of this other car, proceeded to stall as he was doing that.

而这辆车和我们这辆车都再也启动不起来了，因为我坐在前排的副驾驶位上。

And this car and the car we were in wouldn't start again because I was in the front seat in the passenger princess seat.

基本上，车以为我没系安全带，尽管我明明系好了，他就是没法启动车，闹了一大通。

Basically, the car thought I that wasn't buckled in even though I was buckled in, and he couldn't, like, start the car, and it was this whole thing.

我不得不下车，向那个变得非常不耐烦的家伙道歉。

I had to get out and, like, apologize to the other guy who was getting really annoyed.

那是个有点吓人的南非人。

Was, like, scary South African dude.

我能说句实话吗？

Can I be honest?

我觉得这可能让情况更糟了。

I think that probably makes it worse.

我觉得在这种情况下，你只需要打个转向灯就行了。

I think because you should just put the blinkers on in those situations.

不。

No.

我当时心想，天哪。

But I was like, oh my god.

因为根本不是这样。

Like, because no.

因为我们当时在那里，你知道的，经历了人生中最漫长的三分钟，拼命想弄明白怎么启动这辆车并让它开动，可就是不行。

Because we were there for, like, you know, the longest three minutes of your life trying to figure out how to turn this car on and get it to drive, and it just wouldn't.

我不得不下车，然后干脆放弃了。

I had to get out and, like, quit.

就在我这么做的时候，车子突然好像说：哦，没事了。

And then as as I did that, suddenly the car was like, oh, it's okay.

我们可以重新开始了。

We can start again.

我能理解这种情况，因为我也有过同样的经历。

I empathize with this situation because I've had the same thing.

我确实会非常沮丧，而这也是我特别喜欢这辆车——或者至少是它内饰的地方，因为去年圣诞节在家里的珀斯，参加圣诞弥撒时我就遇到过这事。

I do get really frustrated, and that's what I really like about this car that or at least the interiors that love from have gone for here because I had this thing at Christmas last year back home in Perth at Christmas mass.

我说好要载所有人回家，可就是怎么也打不燃我爸爸的电动车。

I said I would drive everyone home, and I couldn't get my dad's electric car to start for the life of me.

而且，现在连钥匙都没有了。

Again, there's no key for it anymore.

所以根本找不到一个明显的按钮来启动车辆。

So there's no way of, like no obvious place where you insert to turn on.

于是我只好在车里到处摸索，想找一个能启动车子的按钮。

So instead, I'm, like, fumbling around the interior trying to find a a button that will turn it on.

最后我终于找到了。

I eventually do find it.

因为我已经手忙脚乱了好几分钟，根本没意识到要启动车子，还得同时踩住刹车并按下按钮。

I've been so flustered because it's been a couple of minutes that I don't recognize that I also need to put my foot on the brake and press the button at the same time for the car to start.

所以我们就在那儿干坐了十分钟。

So we just kinda sat there for ten minutes.

我不得不打电话给我爸，问他怎么才能让车启动，他得一步步指导我所有可能的操作。

I had to call my dad to ask him how I could get the car to go, and he kind of had to walk me through step by step of all the possibilities.

我想应该就是这个原因。

And I think it's this thing.

就是说，好吧。

It's like, okay.

所以也许在某些情况下，比如CarPlay，接受科技是有道理的。

So maybe it's embracing tech in certain situations like CarPlay Yeah.

你可以用它来导航。

Where you can have a map.

但其他时候，就给我一把钥匙来启动汽车吧。

But then other times, just give me a key to turn the car on.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

那么，克里斯，如果iPad坏了怎么办？

So, Chris, what happens when the iPad breaks down?

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

当云端崩溃时会发生什么？我是说，这到底会怎样？

This is What what what happens when the cloud bursts or what I This

要明确的是，这是一个设计播客，而不是科技播客。

is this is to be clear, this is a design podcast, not a tech podcast.

我觉得这一点在某些时刻体现得很明显。

I think that comes across in moments

就像现在这样。

like this.

会出问题吗？

Goes down?

互联网是什么？

What is the Internet?

你到底该说什么？

What do you even say?

不。

No.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

如果这些系统崩溃了，我的意思是，我觉得这其中还涉及一些别的东西，比如我经常想到特斯拉——你没有实体把手，只有一个按钮要按。

If these systems crash I mean, I think there's also something to it where even car handles that I I often think about this in a Tesla where you don't have a handle upon, you have a button to push on.

如果这个系统的电力失效了，我打不开车门怎么办？

What if the electric in that system fail and I can't open the door?

还有各种各样的类似问题。

There there's all these sorts of thing.

我觉得或许正发生一种更广泛的回归，回归到机械设计，就像我们看到的法拉利拉uche那样。

I think maybe there is this kind of broader shift back to the mechanical, back to what we're seeing with this Ferrari luche.

我的意思是，大众已经重新在设计中加入了实体按钮。

I mean, VW reintroduced buttons back into their designs.

中国已经禁止了无把手的特斯拉汽车。

China's banned Tesla's handleless cars.

我觉得人们想要的是触感。

Like, I think people want tactility.

这正好引出了我们的第一个访谈，受访者是TF Chan，他是工艺委员会主办的‘Collect’展览的策展人。

It's the perfect segue into our first interview, which is with TF Chan, who is the director of Collect, which is presented by the Crafts Council.

但给我们简单介绍一下吧。

But tell us a little bit about it.

这是英国及国际艺术博览会日程中唯一一个专注于博物馆级当代工艺与设计的年度博览会。

So it's the only annual art fair on The UK and international circuit that's dedicated to museum quality contemporary craft and design.

它正在伦敦萨默塞特府举行，将持续到三月一日。

It's taking place at Somerset House in London until the first of March.

你采访了Collect的负责人。

You spoke to the director of Collect.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这非常令人兴奋，因为那里发生的事情正呼应了我们在本节目中讨论过的更广泛趋势——收藏型设计的兴起。

I think it is super exciting because I think what is taking place there is speaking to kind of broader trends that we've discussed on this show, the rise of collectible design.

TF和Collect团队很好地重新定位了这一点，阐明了其重要性不仅仅在于家中摆放的漂亮物品。

TF and the team at Collect have done a really good job at kind of repositioning that, explaining the importance beyond it just being beautiful things in our homes.

关于这一点的更多内容，我们直接来听TF Chan的分享。

For more on that, let's just go to TF Chan.

这是一个专门关注当代工艺与设计的收藏家盛会。

Collectors affair that addresses contemporary craft and design specifically.

当我们提到工艺时，我们指的是由材料智慧塑造的创意作品。

And when we say craft, we are talking about creative work that's shaped by material intelligence.

因此，制作者通常同时是设计师和艺术家，他们对材料有着极其深入的了解，这不仅关乎他们如何操控材料，更关乎材料所承载的意义。

So the maker, who is often a designer and artist at the same time, knows that material so thoroughly that it's not just about how they manipulate the material, but also the meaning that is carried through it.

这正是我们关注的核心。

That's what we're focusing on.

许多作品当然是手工制作的，有时也会使用精密的机械，但最终决定工艺独特性的，是人类双手的技艺、培养这种技艺所需的时间，以及理解材料并真正发掘其潜力所需的时间。

A lot of the work ends up being handmade, of course, sometimes with the use of sophisticated machinery, but it is ultimately the skill of the human hand, the time that it takes to develop that skill, the time that it takes to understand the material and really tap into its potential, that makes craft distinctive.

对我们而言，工艺与设计密不可分，因为一些作品确实具有功能性。

For us, it goes hand in hand with design because some of the resulting objects are, of course, functional.

但我们称之为可收藏的设计，因为它们的存在不仅为了实用，更为了让创作者将自己的个性、身份、叙事或价值观融入其中。

But we speak of it as collectible design, in that they exist not only to serve the function, but also to allow the creator to impart some of their personality, their identity, narrative, or value into it.

因此，作为对工艺与设计的颂扬，它也坚定地立足于当代。

So as a celebration of craft and design, it's also insisting on being contemporary.

在博览会上看到的约80%的作品都是在过去五年内创作的。

About 80% of the work that you find at the fair is produced within the past five years.

许多艺术家也会专门为与我们合作而创作新作品。

And a lot of artists actually create new work to show with us as well.

因此，参加Collect博览会的机会，就是能够真正接触到跨多种材料领域的工艺与设计前沿，同时也能感受到全球不同地区令人振奋的创作动态，因为我们展会的参展商具有广泛地理和文化多样性。

So coming to Collect is an opportunity to really encounter the cutting edge of craft and design across a lot of material disciplines, and to really get a sense of what is exciting in different parts of the world as well because of the wide geographical and cultural variety of exhibitors that participate in our fair.

我总是想，那里有太多好东西了。

I'm always wanting to there's there's so much good stuff there.

我的意思是，当我们谈论工艺时，我们强调的是手工，但我喜欢你首先提到‘材料智慧’这一点。

I mean, I I love the fact that when we're talking craft, we lead with the human hand, but I like that you you talked with material intelligence there almost first and foremost.

我想通过这次讨论想表达的是，让我们把工艺的重要性放在更广阔的背景下来看。

I guess what I'm wanting to get to with this discussion, it's let's position, I guess, the importance of craft in a broader context.

也许‘材料智慧’正是关键，因为围绕它会形成完整的微型经济体系。

And and maybe material intelligence is the way to go because there are entire micro economies that come along with this.

我的意思是，你给我发过一条信息，说如果你以大漆为起点，我们谈的是一种材料。

I mean, you sent me a note saying that, you know, if you use lacquer as a starting point, we're talking about a material here.

这如何构建出完整的生态系统呢？

How can that build whole, I guess, ecosystems?

我以漆器为例，因为今年在Collect展览上我们预计将看到大量以漆器为主题的展示，这也使我们的展览与以往有所不同。

I use lacquer as an example because we are expecting lots of lacquer focused presentations at Collect this year, which also sets apart our fare from what we've done previously.

去年十一月，我作为日本国家旅游局的嘉宾前往日本，去了高冈市，参观了一家漆器工厂，惊讶地发现制作一件漆器需要如此多双人的双手参与。

But I was in Japan in November as a guest of the National Tourism Organization, and I went to Takaoka City where I visited a lacquer factory, and was quite astounded to discover how many hands go into creating a piece of lacquer.

你可能会认为，这只是一个材料领域，因此专门从事这一领域、毕生致力于完善它的人，就能完成整个制作流程的每一步。

You may think that it is one material discipline, and therefore a person who specializes in that discipline, who has dedicated their life to perfecting it, would be able to take care of every step of the process.

但实际上，学习金继（用金漆修补器物）的技艺，与学习螺钿（螺壳与珍珠贝镶嵌）的技艺，是完全不同的两种技能。

In fact, it's a very different skill to learn how to do kintsugi, so using gold to create repairs within work, compared to doing raaden, which is mother and pearl inlay.

所有这些都在漆器的框架内进行。

And this is all taking place in the Lakka framework.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，所有这些都属于同一个技艺领域。

So all that is within one discipline.

我们通常认为手工艺是由一双双手创作出来的，有时确实如此。

And we think of craft as something that's created by a single pair of hands, and sometimes that is indeed the case.

但也有许多手工艺门类需要协作完成。

But there are also many craft disciplines which require collaboration.

我想就是这样了。

I think that's it.

我想强调的不仅是手工艺的最终成品——比如我们家中那件独一无二、精美绝伦的作品。

I wanna highlight crafts more than just the end product of us having an amazing, beautiful, maybe one off piece in our home.

更重要的是你在这里展示的作品所蕴含的更广泛的意义。

It's about the the broader implications of the work that you're showing here.

你知道，当我们购买这些作品时，我们是在用英镑投票，用美元投票。

You know, if we're buying it, we're voting with our pounds, we're voting with our dollars.

这不也同样重要吗？

Is is that important too?

当然。

Absolutely.

几乎你能想到的所有东西，都可以轻易买到一次性版本。

It's very easy to buy disposable versions of pretty much everything you can think of.

比如任何一种材料类型，只要在亚马逊上搜索一下，一两天内就能收到产品。

Like any material typology, just type it into Amazon, you'll get a product delivered in a day or two.

它可能在一个月左右的时间里能满足你的需求。

And it will probably serve your purposes for a month or so.

它足够好用，但同时，它经不起时间的考验。

It is good enough, but at the same time, it's not the type of thing that stands the test of time.

它不是那种你愿意传给下一代的东西，更不是那种真正提升你生活质量的东西。

It's not the type of thing that you would want to pass on to next generations, and definitely not the type of things that actually elevates your quality of life.

因此，手工艺将一些真正耗费了时间、技艺与用心制作的物品带入了我们的生活。

So what craft does is it introduces objects into our lives that really have taken time and expertise and care to produce.

因为你知道，每一件作品背后都有一个艺术家和匠人，他们深思熟虑地如何与材料互动、协作，创造出独特、富有故事性、可能承载文化传统并兼具创新性的作品，这时你就会真正理解，制作一个盒子究竟需要多少心血。

And because you know that there is an artist and maker behind it, that's really thought about how to manipulate and collaborate with that material to create something that is distinctive, that might carry a narrative to it, that might introduce us to cultural traditions while also having an element of innovation, then you have this appreciation for what it actually takes to create, say, a box.

你会主动思考它，真正与它互动，而不仅仅让它作为你生活的背景存在。

And you are thinking actively about it, you actually engage with it beyond having it in the backdrop of your life.

当你有朋友来访时，它可能会成为谈话的焦点，你会真正思考这件物品的后续命运。

It might become a conversation piece when you have friends over, and you actually think about the afterlife of the object.

如果它对你来说已经用到了尽头，你可能会把它送给继续珍视它的人。

If it's reached the end of its useful life for you, you might give it to someone who continues to cherish it.

你可能会把它传给下一代。

You might pass it down to the next generation.

这就是手工艺在我们的消费文化与即时满足文化中脱颖而出的地方。

And that's where craft stands apart from within our culture of consumption and within our culture of instant gratification.

我喜欢这个想法，它并不是炒作的产物。

I like this this idea that it's it's not the product of of hype.

它关乎时间，你知道的，长周期的。

It's about time, you know, long form.

它几乎是慢内容，我很喜欢这种风格，对我而言非常有吸引力。

It's almost slow content, which I I quite like, which is incredibly appealing to me.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

这不是一条捷径。

It's not a shortcut.

手工艺总是需要时间，也需要投入。

Like, craft always takes time and craft takes investment.

我认为，有一段时间，包括我在内的许多人转向大规模生产的工业设计，是因为在繁荣的时代，你突然之间可以拥有所有这些东西，一瞬间就能得到，每个人家中都能拥有质量尚可的家具。

And I think that for a while, the reason why so many people, myself included, turned towards mass produced industrial design was that in an era of prosperity, like you all of a sudden can have all these things, like within a flash, and everybody can have furniture of a certain quality in their home that's good enough.

但在发达社会中，我们更认真地思考周围的事物至关重要，我们希望通过所选择的物品来提升生活质量。

But at the same time, within the developed society, it's really important that we're thinking more seriously about the stuff that surrounds us, that, we're looking to elevate our quality of life through the objects that we choose to live with.

而正是在这一点上，投资于手工艺非常有意义。

And and this is where investing in craft makes a lot of sense.

我也喜欢这一点，因为这又回到了那些由精美手工艺品所承载的多层次意义。

This is what I like as well because it it it's again, it's coming back to those different layers that come with an amazingly crafted object.

显然，这其中存在规模经济，无论是漆器工坊，还是某个参与生产全过程的地区；而在个人层面，也存在着可持续性的叙事。

Obviously, you've got those economies and there's economies of scale within that, whether it's a lacquer workshop or a, you know, an an entire region that's somehow involved in in producing something through to, like, on that kind of singular personal level, there's sustainability narrative as well.

因为如果我们拥有美好的物品，我们就想留住它们。

Because if we have nice things, we want to hang on to them.

这是否是你在策划展会时的思考过程的一部分？

Is this part of your, I guess, thought process when you're curating the fair?

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为‘策划’这个词可能有点过于委婉了。

I think curating is probably a a generous word.

我是在组织，我

I organize I

我明白。

take it.

我也同意。

I'd I'd go with it.

是的。

Yeah.

组织展会。

Organizing the fair.

组织展会。

Organizing the fair.

我们经常谈论可持续性，因为可持续性当然涉及供应链，并决定引入哪些材料。

And we talk about sustainability a lot because sustainability is, of course, looking at supply chains and deciding on what materials you introduce.

当然，某些材料的环境足迹比其他材料更小。

And certain materials of course have a smaller environmental footprint than others.

但可持续性也由一个物品的使用寿命来定义。

But also, sustainability is defined by the useful life of an object.

如果一件物品被如此用心地制作，设计得如此精良，并且体现了材料智慧、文化智慧，同时具有足够的个人意义，让你愿意保留它数十年，并传给你的孩子，那么这件物品的使用寿命就异常长久。

And if it's so thoughtfully made, if it's so well designed, and if it represents material intelligence, cultural intelligence, if it presents personal meaning to an extent that you want to keep it around for decades and you want to hand it to your children, then the useful life of this object is exceptionally long.

在这种情况下，投资于这种经得起时间考验的物品，远比购买只能使用一两年的东西要好得多。

And in that case, it's much better to be investing in a piece that stands the test of time in this way as opposed to buying things that will last you one or two years.

我认为，正如你刚才提到的，这种关于记忆、意义以及与物品建立联系的整体观念。

I think as well, and you you've kind of touched on it there, but this whole idea of memory and and meaning and having a a connection to an object.

你以前也跟我提过这一点，但这种观念认为，如果我们把工艺放在收藏级设计的范畴里，它不仅仅是形式和功能，还多了一样东西。

Again, you you kinda mentioned this to me before, but this idea that craft, you know, if we're gonna put it in the collectible design world, is about there's the form and function plus an additional thing.

这关乎这个物品所传达的信息。

It's it's about what the object says.

我的意思是，嗯。

I mean Mhmm.

为什么这很重要？

Why is that important?

你能再详细解释一下吗？

Can you unpack that a little bit more?

这其实是你的观点，我却假装是自己的，这正是我最喜欢做的事。

This is your idea that I'm pretending to take credit for, which is one of my favorite things to do.

是的。

Yeah.

我职业生涯初期是一名设计记者和编辑。

I started my career as a design journalist and editor.

因此，我有过许多关于优秀设计需要形式与功能平衡的对话。

So I've had plenty of conversations about how good design requires a balance of form and function.

你希望它看起来美观。

You want something to look good.

你也希望它符合人体工学、高效且耐用。

You also want it to be ergonomic and efficient and durable.

当我们谈论收藏级设计时，我们能够为形式和功能增添一层额外的内涵。

When we talk about collectible design, we're able to add an additional layer to both form and function.

在我看来，收藏级设计关乎的是物件本身所能传达的内容——超越美学或功能上的愉悦，也超越解决问题本身。

In my view, collectible design is about what an object can actually say, so beyond delivering that aesthetic or functional pleasure and beyond solving problems.

它是那些制作它的人和构思它的人的身份、价值观与故事的表达。

It is an expression of the identities and values and then stories behind the the hands that have made them and the minds that have conceived them.

因为每一件作品背后都有一个故事。

It's because there's a story behind a piece.

因为当我问起你桌上的陶瓷艺术品时，你能讲出关于它的故事，这会让你与这件作品、与这个物件建立更紧密的关系。

Because when I ask you about a ceramic artwork on your desk, you have a story to tell about it, that you develop a much closer relationship with this artwork, with this object.

你会谈论它，把它看作是你生活中的一部分，而不仅仅是背景中存在的一件物品。

You talk about it, and you see it as something that you live with rather than something that just exists in the background.

这对制造者、设计师和艺术家来说也令人兴奋，因为他们在这类生活中扮演了更加重要的角色。

It is exciting for the maker, the designer, the artist as well because then they are occupying a much more important role in our lives.

我认为，任何珍视这种定义下设计的人，也都应该珍视手工艺。

And I think that anybody who cherishes design by that definition should also be cherishing craft.

它打破了这样一种观念，即东西应该是一次性使用的，你用完就扔，这似乎是常态。

It's disrupting this idea of, you know, that things should be disposable that, yeah, you using it and then discarding it is, like, the way that things are done.

这真是彻底颠覆了传统观念。

It's it's really flipping things on its head.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

有一本关于手工艺的好书，我最近一直在重读。

There's a really good book on craft, which I've been rereading.

这很好。

This is good.

我们也非常欢迎为听众推荐好书。

We we also love recommendations for our listeners.

这本书由纽约艺术与设计博物馆前馆长格伦·亚当森撰写。

It was written by the former director of the Museum of Arts and Design in New York, Glenn Adamson.

书名是我能想到的最棒的工艺类书籍标题——《少而精》。

And the title is the best title I could think of for any craft book is Fewer, Better Things.

在我看来，这个标题完美地概括了工艺为何重要的理念。

And in my mind, that just encapsulates the idea of why crafting is important incredibly well.

在一个我们被物品充斥的世界里，我们不应再期待周围的东西越多越好，而应在决定购买和保留什么时，对自己提出更高的要求。

In a world where we're just saturated with stuff, we do not need expect more of the things that surround us, and we need to expect more of ourselves when we make decisions as to what to acquire and what to keep.

我们需要将周围的事物、艺术品，不仅视为装饰品或实用品，更应视作人类倾注心力、提升品质后所能达到成就的见证。

And we need to see the objects that surround us, the artwork that surround us, not only as decorative or functional, but also as testaments to what humans can achieve when we really put our mind to creating something and elevating its quality.

那是Collect总监T。

That was Collect director T.

F。

F.

Chan。

Chan.

我们稍后会回到这段对话的第二部分。

We will return to the second part of that conversation in a little bit.

但让我们来讨论一下他刚才说的内容。

But, I mean, let's discuss a little bit about what he was saying there.

你对收藏级设计作为带有意义的作品，以及他所说的材料智慧有何看法？

What are your thoughts on collectible design as work that comes with meaning and, as he said, material intelligence?

我认为，对我来说，这关乎我们更深入地与周围的事物互动，而这又是本节目长期探讨的主题。

I think I think it's for me, this is about engaging more deeply with the objects that surround us, which, again, is a long running theme on this show.

但关键是，如果你知道这种材料来自某个地方，某个特定的地域，那你就会意识到，那个地方很可能发展出了与这种材料相关的特定技能。

But it's it's this idea that, you know, if you know this material is is from somewhere and a a a particular place, you know that there's probably a skill set that was developed in that particular place with regards to this particular material.

因此，这种知识是通过时间、重复和制作逐渐积累起来的。

So there's this knowledge built through time and repetition and making.

它超越了仅仅是一个最终产品，我想，当你理解这些材料的特性时，你就会不自觉地开始思考某件物品的整个供应链。

It becomes about more than just a final product, but I guess you start to think about the entire supply chain of something just inadvertently by understanding, I guess, the the qualities of these materials.

我认为，这或许是直到最近以前，人类社会和文化都一直在做的事情。

And I think that was maybe something that even as societies and cultures, we were probably doing until relatively recently.

我觉得，过去我们对物品的来源有更深的理解，因为它们通常与我们所在的地方和本土紧密相连。

Like, I do think we had this deeper understanding of where things were from perhaps in the past because it would often be so inherently linked to a place and to a locality where we were from.

我的例子总是回到珀斯，比如我父亲的第一张书桌，我至今还保留着，是用卡里木制成的，这种木材来自西澳大利亚西南部的森林。

I mean, I'm always going back to Perth, but, you know, my dad's first desk, which I still hang on to in Perth, is made from Carrie timber, which is from the forest of Southwest Western Australia.

我之所以知道这一点，是因为它原本是西澳大利亚州政府的办公家具。

And I only know that because it's an ex government of Western Australia desk.

所有这些家具都是用卡里木制作的。

They were all made from Carrie timber.

你因此对地方、工艺和来源有了认知，而如果你只是依赖宜家这样的产品，可能就缺乏这种理解。

You have this understanding of, again, of place and craft and of providence that you're probably not if you're just relying on something from IKEA.

但我觉得，这也牵涉到故事讲述的层面，我认为这是收藏型设计中非常关键的一部分。

But I think this also plays, I guess, into the storytelling side of things, which I think is really a key part of, I guess, collectible design.

我的意思是，我们希望保留那些能讲述故事的东西。

I mean, we wanna hang on to things that tell a story.

你在自己家里也有这种共鸣吗？

Does that resonate with you in your own home?

是的

Yeah.

当然

Definitely.

我觉得你希望与那些你欣赏其技能的人产生联系。

And I I feel like you want to associate yourself with people who you appreciate for their skills.

我认为在谈到收藏性设计时，这一点确实存在。

I think there's an element of that in terms of, like, when you're talking about collectible design.

通常来说，这些设计师都很酷。

Like, often the designers are quite cool.

就我自己的家而言，我有几件来自我祖父的物品，他是一名木匠，和你类似。

In terms of my own home, I have a few pieces by my grandfather who was a carpenter and, like, similar to you.

这些都是一些简单的物件，但我知道它们的来源，也知道是谁制作的。

These are quite simple pieces, but I know exactly where they came from, and I know the person who made them.

拥有这样的物品要特别得多。

Like, it is way more special to have that.

我也喜欢他说手工艺是对即时满足的解药，我觉得这非常好，因为我就提到了宜家。

I also like that he says that craft is an antidote to instant gratification, which I think is is really nice because I, you know, I'm I kinda mentioned IKEA there.

我喜欢宜家，但也许关键在于知道何时何地该依赖它。

I do love IKEA, but I guess it's knowing when and where to rely on it perhaps.

也许这场讨论的核心也正是如此，因为他谈到了手工艺提升我们生活质量的能力。

Maybe that's what also this discussion is about because he he talks about craft's ability to elevate our quality of life.

也许这还关乎选择哪些物品真正需要这种手工的触感。

Maybe it's also about picking which pieces do need this craft touch.

有趣的是他提到了即时满足，我觉得在很多方面，它的解药其实就是耐心。

Or it's funny he said instant gratification because I think to the antidote to that in many ways is just patience.

有时我担心，收藏级设计的讨论如果只是简单地说‘买最棒的东西’，会迅速变得脱离现实，但我觉得根本不必非买不可——说起来容易。

And sometimes I worry that the collectible design discourse can get really out of touch super quickly if it's just like, well, buy the most amazing stuff, you know, and like But I think never have to buy but but that's that's easy to say.

但如果你需要一张桌子，确实需要，又没有足够的钱，那就只能凑合着用现有的东西。

But if you need a table, like, you need and you don't have the funds for it, you just gotta, like, make do with what you have.

有时候，人们会问：‘你为什么不提升一下你的生活呢？’——这种说法其实挺有争议的。

Sometimes, they're great against this sort of, why don't you just elevate your life?

也许房间里最大的问题是，这并不容易。

Maybe the elephant in the room is that it's not that easy.

有趣的是，这可能也印证了你刚才用的那个词——耐心。

The funny thing is it probably also speaks to a word you've just used then, which is patience.

关键是明白，也许现在没有一张这么棒的桌子，但我们已经意识到，它会提升我们的生活质量。

And it is knowing that, you know, maybe it's not having this amazing table right now, but it is something that we've identified is gonna improve our quality of life.

所以，让我们一起努力，为这个目标储蓄。

So let's build and save towards that.

我认为这也是设计媒体面临的一个更大的问题。

I think this is also, you know, a bigger problem within design media.

我们沉迷于新闻周期和这种观念。

We're obsessed with the news cycle and this idea.

我们会谈论索斯比拍卖行一件价值3410万美元的河马酒吧。

You know, we'll talk about a $34,100,000 sale of at Sotheby's of a hippo bar.

但我想，这或许并不是我们真正要讨论的重点。

And I think that is perhaps not what this is necessarily about.

我的意思是，我甚至和TF聊过这个。

I mean, I I even talked to TF about this.

在Collect展上，价格范围非常广泛。

There's a full range of prices on show at Collect.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以买到高端产品，但也有价格亲民的选择。

You can get the high end, but there's also accessible things.

我认为这正是Collect展重要的原因，因为虽然我们谈论的是一些价格昂贵的作品，但它们是供人一生使用和陪伴的。

I think that's what also makes this Collect show important because, yeah, perhaps we are talking pieces that are quite expensive, but then they're pieces to be lived with and used over the course of a lifetime.

它们不一定是那种静止不动、只摆在家中、不被使用、不被喜爱的东西。

It's not necessarily something that's static that's just gonna sit in your home and not be engaged with and not be loved and not be used.

我认为这正是关键所在：这里的作品都是为了被使用而制作的。

And I think that's really the key thing about this is that the works here are made to be used.

它们旨在提升你的生活质量，无论是餐桌上的对话、出色的照明作品，还是某些陶瓷器皿。

They're made to help enhance your quality of life, whether that's a conversation at the dining table or an amazing work of lighting or, you know, some ceramics.

还有另一件事，我想我们或许可以在回到TF之前先聊聊，他提到漆器是今年展会的一大趋势。

There's this is the other thing I think that I maybe we round out on before we go back to TF, but he talks a lot about the fact that lacquer's been a big trend at this year's show.

我的意思是，你能把自己看作一位漆艺师吗？

I mean, do can you see yourself as a lacquerist?

我非常喜欢漆器。

I love lacquer.

这种材料摸起来非常奇特，而且感觉极其古老。

It's so alien as a material when you feel it, and it feels so ancient.

它只是用树脂涂在木头上形成的高光泽表面，但当你第一次触摸时，很难准确描述它的感觉。

It's just this high gloss from a resin that's been applied to wood, but it, like, when you feel it at first, it's hard to place.

不过它让我有点害怕，因为我感觉我很快就会把它弄坏。

It scares me though because I feel like I would damage it quite quickly.

它是一种非常精致的器物。

It's a very delicate machine.

但金缮也被视为一种漆艺形式。

But kintsugi kintsugi is also considered a type of lack of work.

也就是说，你也可以立即修复它。

Mean, you could also instantly repair it.

即使在同一门技艺中，也存在不同的专长，比如金缮修复、用金粉或银粉装饰漆器的莳绘，以及使用珍珠母贝镶嵌的雷电技法。

Even within one discipline, you have distinct specialisms such as Kintsugi repair, maki using gold or silver powder to decorate lacquer, and raiden, an inlay technique using mother of pearl.

让我们来听一听与TF陈的对话第二部分，他进一步讨论了选择手工制作而非大规模工业设计的政治含义。

Well, let's listen to the second part of the chat with TF Chan who goes on to discuss the political implications of opting for Kraft over mass industrial design.

手工艺正是对这种趋势的完美解药，因为它不关乎抽象概念。

Craft is a perfect antidote to that because it is not about abstractions.

它关乎的是拥有真实技能和真实生计的真人。

It is very much about real people with real skills, with real livelihoods.

当我们庆祝手工艺、购买手工艺作品时，我们实际上是在肯定一种信念：社会应当被组织起来，以支持人类并促进人类的繁荣。

And when we are celebrating craft, when we are buying craft, we're actually affirming the belief that society should be organized to support humans and to enable humans to flourish.

因此，这不仅是收藏和支持手工艺背后的政治信息，也是收藏行为本身所传递的政治信息。

So that that's the political message behind coming to collect, but also behind collecting and supporting craft.

通过这样做，我们也在表明，手工艺对人类长期福祉至关重要，并传递出一种政治讯息：手工艺的未来不仅依赖于技艺高超、富有创造力的工匠转型为艺术家和设计师，还需要一个更广泛的生态系统——包括良好的教育政策、为希望以手工艺谋生者提供的可负担工作坊，以及材料和设备的可及性。

By doing that as well, we are actually showing that craft is important to human well-being in the long term, and sending a political message because the future of craft actually depends on that not just being very skilled and creative craftspeople who then take on the role of artists and designers, but also there needs to be a wider ecosystem where you have good education policy, affordable studios for people who want to make a living out of craft, access to materials and machinery.