萨姆·阿尔特曼的力量与责任

听播客的美国人比听Spotify和Pandora广告支持的流媒体音乐的人还多。

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是紧随其后的两家公司总和的两倍。

And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

因此，无论你的客户听什么，他们都会听到你的信息。

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

此外，只有iHeart能将你的信息扩展到广播电台的受众。

Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

你觉得播客能帮助你的业务吗？

Think podcasting can help your business?

想想iHeart。

Think iHeart.

流媒体、广播和播客。

Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

拨打844844开始吧。

Call 844844 to get started.

那就是844844

That's 844844

你知道罗尔德·达尔吗？他是《查理和巧克力工厂》《玛蒂尔达》和《好心眼儿巨人》的作者。

You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

但你知道他也曾是一名间谍吗？

But did you know he was also a spy?

这发生在他写故事之前吗？

Was this before he wrote his stories?

肯定是的。

It must have been.

我们的新播客系列《罗尔德·达尔的隐秘世界》，将带你踏上一段穿越他非凡而争议人生中隐藏篇章的奇妙旅程。

Our new podcast series, the secret world of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life.

他的工作 literally 是勾引有权势的美国人的妻子。

His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans.

什么？

What?

而且他

And he

非常擅长这个。

was really good at it.

你可能也不会相信。

You probably won't believe it either.

好吧。

Okay.

我觉得这不对。

I don't think that's true.

我跟你说真的。

I'm telling you.

我曾经是个间谍。

I was a spy.

你知道吗？达尔曾与罗斯福家族关系密切，跟哈里·杜鲁门一起玩扑克，还与一位国会议员有过长期婚外情？

Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?

然后他带着才华前往好莱坞，与沃尔特·迪士尼和阿尔弗雷德·希区柯克合作，之后创作了一部畅销的詹姆斯·邦德电影。

And then he took his talents to Hollywood where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.

这位秘密特工是如何成为有史以来最成功的儿童文学作家的呢？

How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever?

他隐秘的过去中，有哪些黑暗元素渗透进了我们童年时读到的故事里？

And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids?

这个真实的故事比他写过的任何情节都更离奇。

The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听罗尔德·达尔的秘密人生。

Listen to the secret world of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

十发子弹射出。

Ten ten shots fired.

市政厅大楼。

City Hall Building.

现场缴获了一把银色的.40口径手枪。

A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

由iHeart播客和Best Case Studios出品，这是《勒索者：市政厅谋杀案》。

From iHeart Podcasts and Best Case Studios, this is Rorschach, murder at City Hall.

这种事情怎么可能发生在市政厅？

How could this have happened at City Hall?

有人能告诉我吗？

Somebody tell me that.

杰弗里·胡德干的。

Jeffrey Hood did it.

2003年7月，市议员詹姆斯·E·戴维斯带着一位客人抵达纽约市政厅。

July 2003, councilman James e Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest.

两人均携带隐蔽武器，不到三十分钟，两人都将死去。

Both men are carrying concealed weapons, and in less than thirty minutes, both of them will be dead.

议会大厅里所有人都趴下了。

Everybody in the chamber's docks.

一场震惊公众的公开谋杀。

A shocking public murder.

我大喊，趴下。

I scream, get down.

趴下。

Get down.

那是枪声。

Those are shots.

那是枪声。

Those are shots.

趴下。

Get down.

一位富有魅力的政治家。

A charismatic politician.

你知道，他只是

You know, he just

总是无视规则。

bent the rules all the time.

我仍然有武器，可以射杀你。

I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you.

还有一个拥有秘密的局外人。

And an outsider with a secret.

他声称自己是被彻底压垮的受害者。

He alleged he was a victim of flat down.

这可能有政治因素，也可能没有。

That may or may not have been political.

这可能与性有关。

That may have been about sex.

收听《Rorschach：市政厅谋杀案》，可在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听。

Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我总觉得这有点难以置信，直到我真的开始赚钱。

I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money.

现在是金融素养月，播客《穷得吃土》正在带来关于金钱、成长和构建未来的真实对话。

It's financial literacy month, and the podcast eating while broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.

这个月，听听顶级主播佐伊·斯宾塞和风险投资家拉基莎·兰德鲁姆·皮埃尔分享她们从起步到成长的历程。

This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakisha Landrum Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up.

如果我和父母在外面，看到很多人过来找我合影，我会想：这是什么情况？

If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what?

现在当然完全是这样了。

Today now, obviously, it's like 100%.

他们什么都信。

They believe everything.

但一开始他们只是说：你得去找份正经工作。

But at first it was just like, you gotta go get a real job.

社区的进取心背后有经济因素。

There's an economic component to community striving.

如果社区里缺乏资金和创业活动，它们就会失败。

If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail.

我说的失败，是指人们连买食物的钱都没有。

And what I mean by fails, they don't have money to pay for food.

他们无法养活自己的孩子。

They cannot feed their kids.

他们没有住所。

They do not have homes.

如果没有资金在社区中流动，社区就无法运转。

Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台，收听来自 Black Effect 播客网络的《穷得吃不起饭》。

Listen to eating while broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

嘿，厄尼斯特。

Hey, Earnest.

最近怎么样？

What's up?

看。

Look.

金钱是我们每个人都需要面对的问题，但财务素养才能帮助我们将收入转化为真正的财富。

Money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth.

在《Earn Your Leisure》播客的每一集中，我们都会剖析你理解金钱、投资和创业所需的关键对话。

On each episode of the podcast Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.

从股票和房地产到信贷、商业和代际财富，我们将复杂的金融话题转化为每个人都能理解的通俗对话。

From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand.

因为事实是，大多数人从未被教导过金钱究竟是如何运作的。

Because the truth is, most people were never taught how money really works.

但一旦你理解了这套系统，你就可以开始在其中构建自己的财富。

But once you understand a system, you can start to build within it.

这意味着拥有资产、更聪明地投资，并为自己和下一代创造机会。

That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation.

如果你想学习如何积累财富、理解市场并以所有者的心态思考，那么《Earn Your Leisure》就是为你量身打造的播客。

If you want to learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, Earn Your Leisure is the podcast for you.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《Earn Your Leisure》。

Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

我想回到2月27日。

I wanna go back to February 27.

特朗普政府曾与Anthropic达成一项协议。

The Trump administration had a deal with Anthropic.

他们正在重新谈判这项协议。

They're renegotiating the deal.

Anthropic的首席执行官表示，他不会允许云服务被用于自主武器或监控美国公民。

Anthropic CEO said he's not gonna allow cloud to to be used for autonomous weapons or to surveil American citizens.

当时发生了激烈的公开争论，甚至连对AI一无所知的人都在报纸头版看到了Anthropic的新闻。

There was a big public back and forth, people who didn't even really know about AI were seeing anthropic on the front pages of the paper.

他们被给予了下午5点的合规截止期限，但他们并未同意。

They were given a 5PM deadline to comply, they didn't agree.

特朗普政府指责他们是叛徒，将他们列为科技供应链风险，并命令联邦机构停止使用Anthropic。

The Trump administration accused them of being traitors, labeled them the tech a supply chain risk, and ordered federal agencies to stop using Anthropic.

因此，数小时后，OpenAI宣布与国防部达成协议。

So hours later, OpenAI announces a deal with the Department of War.

这是个错误吗？

Was that a mistake?

我会把我们做了什么、为什么这么做，和我们推出的方式区分开来。

I'll separate what we did and why from the way that we rolled it out.

我们决定不与政府合作处理机密网络。

We had decided not to work with the government on classified networks.

这并不是不重要。

It's it's not that it's not important.

只是Anthropic已经全力投入这个方向，我认为他们相当注重安全，也在那里做了不错的工作，而我们则忙于其他事情。

It's just that Anthropic had gone hard in that direction, and I think they're, you know, reasonably safety minded and were doing good work there, and we were busy with other things.

我认为我们的政府，尤其是军队，必须能够接触到先进的AI模型，这非常重要。

I do think it's very important that our government and our military in particular have access to advanced AI models.

我认为如果没有这些模型，他们将无法完成国家安全任务。

I do not think that they will be able to carry out their mission for national security without that.

我也认为我们之前谈到了社会正在发生的变革。

I also think that we talked about kind of the changes happening to society earlier.

未来一年，世界必须回答的一个最重要问题是：AI公司和政府，哪个更强大？

One of the most important questions the world will have to answer in the next year is, are AI companies or are governments more powerful?

我认为政府必须更强大。

And I think it's very important that the governments are more powerful.

比如，世界的未来以及关于国家安全最重要事项的决策，应当通过民主选举产生的过程以及由此任命的人来做出。

Like, the the future of the world and the decisions about the most important elements of national security should be made through a democratically elected process and the people that have been appointed as part of that process.

而不是我。

Not me.

我不是其他任何实验室的首席执行官。

I'm not the CEO of some other lab.

然而，有些领域法律尚未跟上。

However, there are areas where the law hasn't caught up yet.

这是一种新技术，立法需要一些时间。

This is a new technology, and it's gonna take some time to legislate it.

在这段时期内，我认为公司有理由说：嘿，我们对这项技术有一些了解。

And during that time period, I think it is reasonable for the companies to say, hey, we understand something about this technology.

它还不适合用于自主武器。

It is not ready yet for autonomous weapons.

关于防止国内监控的规则，是在没有超级强大人工智能的世界中经过深思熟虑制定的，但尚未适应这个新环境。

The rules about protecting against domestic surveillance were well thought through for a world without super powerful AI and are not yet adapted for that.

因此，在这类领域，我认为可以说：我们得放慢脚步，而我们确实这么做了。

So in areas like that, I think it's reasonable to say, hey, we just need to go slower on this, which we did.

就像，这正是我们合同中写明的一部分。

Like, that was part of our contract as it's written.

这属于我们的安全机制的一部分。

That is part of our safety stack.

这些是我们所秉持的共同原则。

Those are we share the same principles.

我认为Anthropic在这些原则上是正确的。

And I think Anthropic is right on those principles.

据我所知，他们几乎就按照这些原则达成了和我们类似的协议。

And as I've heard, they, like, very nearly got a deal done like ours with those principles.

在我的理想世界里，他们会继续与政府合作。

In my dream world, they would have just kept working with the government.

我认为，对我们这个行业来说，说这是人类有史以来最强大的技术是行不通的。

I don't think it works for our industry to say, hey, this is the most powerful technology humanity has ever built.

它将成为地缘政治中的关键因素。

It is going to be the high order bit in geopolitics.

它将成为世界上有史以来最强大的网络武器。

It is going to be the greatest cyber weapon the world has ever built.

它将成为未来战争与防护的决定性因素，而我们不会把它交给你。

It is going to, you know, be the determinant of future wars and protection, and we are not giving it to you.

我们不会让你拥有它。

We are not gonna let you have it.

我们会做出一个决定。

You know, we're gonna make a decision.

我们会在这里做出决策。

We're gonna make the decisions here.

如果我是政府官员，或者作为公民投票选出政府代表，我会说，这真的不可接受。

If I were the government or if I were, you know, a citizen voting for representatives of my government, would say, like, that's really not okay.

我当时就想，现在也这么认为，如果我们没有与政府合作，情况可能会迅速失控，因为政府当时在威胁要动用《国防生产法》。

And I thought, and I still think that had we not gotten involved with the government, things could have gone fairly off the rails pretty quickly where the government was saying, like, you know, they were making DPA threats.

他们发表的言论比那还要强硬。

They were making some stronger statements than that.

所以我们必须表明：我们不会抛下你们。

So we needed to say, hey, like, we're not gonna leave you.

作为产业界，我们不能在没有达成任何协议的情况下离开美国政府。

We, the industry, can't leave the US government without something here.

只要我们能保留住我们的底线，我们就会继续合作。

We will, as long as we can have something that respects our red lines.

我希望我们当初能以完全不同的方式宣布这件事。

I wish we'd announced it very differently.

我的目标其实是降低紧张气氛。

I think, like, my goal was to lower the temperature.

但显然，事与愿违。

It clearly had the opposite effect.

我觉得我了解到人们对政府的看法，以及行业内人们多么想讲述一个具有竞争力的故事。

I think I, like, learned something about how people feel about the government, how much people wanna tell, like, a competitive story in the industry.

所以我相信我们下次会做得更好。

So I'm sure we'll do better next time.

但就政府需要美国公司支持以实现国家安全使命，而我们有必要回应这一号召而言，我感觉很好。

But on the merits of like the government needs support from US companies to carry out the mission of national security and we need to answer that call, I feel good.

难道不是细节决定成败吗？

Isn't it also the devil's in the details?

对吧？

Right?

你知道，如果我们看看人们的感受，我们现在正处在一个充满争议的时期。

You know, if we look at how people feel, we're in a contentious time.

完全正确。

Totally.

你知道，人们对移民与海关执法局、伊朗战争的国内审查正在加剧。

You know, there's increased domestic scrutiny over ICE, the war in Iran.

那么，你会怎么回应那些人，他们说：‘你们已经被划了红线，但萨姆，你的具体红线在哪里？既然你知道事情可能会出错，知道这些技术可能被用于你无法控制的方式，你们如何判断自己已经接近悬崖了？'

So what do you say to folks who say, okay, like, you're redlined, but you, Sam, like, exactly, like, is your red line and how will you, knowing that things can go awry, knowing that these technologies can be used in these ways that you might not be able to control, what is your process for knowing when we're too close to the cliff?

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你们能执行这些红线吗？

And also, like, can you enforce your red lines?

对。

Yeah.

有人会问，如果政府将人工智能公司国有化，你们还能执行任何红线吗？

I mean, one question that people say is if the governments nationalize the AI companies, can you enforce any red lines at all?

说实话，在那种情况下，你完全可以想象一个世界，那时我们确实再也无法做到了。

And I'll be honest at that point, probably we you know, like, it's you can imagine a world of that happening where where no, we couldn't anymore.

作为一家独立公司，而且在我们与政府的互动中，他们一直非常坦诚地表示：‘我们理解这些问题。'

As an independent company, and certainly in our interactions with the government, they have been really great about saying, hey, you know, we understand these issues.

你们会通过合同来落实。

You will do it contractually.

你可以在那里构建系统。

You can build systems there.

现在，再说一遍，我不知道，也没人知道未来几年会变得多么奇怪。

Now, again, I don't know nor does anybody else know how weird the next few years are gonna get.

我希望政府不要将人工智能实验室国有化。

I hope the governments don't nationalize the AI labs.

不过，你不认为这是有可能的吗？

You don't think that's a possibility, though, do you?

我从不否认这是有可能的。

I would never say it's not a possibility.

我认为这不太可能

I don't think it's

你有没有就这个问题进行过讨论？

Have you had conversations about that?

我认为这不太可能发生，但我想说，如果我们希望这种情况不要发生，那我们最好找到与政府合作的方式。

I don't think it's likely, but I like, I will say that if I want if we want that not to happen, then I think we better find a way to work with the government.

如果我们不这么做，这种情况似乎更有可能发生。

Like, if we're not doing it, it would seem more likely.

我以前说过，现在依然坚信，在一个治理良好的社会中，人工智能的发展本应是政府项目。

The I've said before, and I still really believe that in a in a well run society, developing AI would have been a government project.

曼哈顿计划就是一个政府项目。

Manhattan Project was a government project.

阿波罗计划也是一个政府项目。

The Apollo program was a government project.

就连艾森豪威尔高速公路系统也是政府项目。

Even the Eisenhower Highway System was a government project.

但感觉我们现在已经不再处于那样的时代了。

But it doesn't feel like we're in a time like that anymore.

感觉政府无法有效推进这件事，但我认为这确实有必要发生。

It doesn't feel like the government could effectively do this, and I think it does need to happen.

你知道，人们普遍假设联邦机构都依法行事，但历史表明，实际情况可能并不固定——比如爱德华·斯诺登曝光的监控项目，当时是经由秘密法庭授权并被视为合法的，但一旦公之于众，后来在改革中被裁定为违法。

You know, there's this assumption that federal agencies operate within the law, but history shows that it can be fluid, that surveillance programs exposed by Edward Snowden, essentially, they were authorized by secret courts and considered legal at the time, but they were later ruled unlawful in reform once they became public.

我认为这就是为什么我会回到你提出的那些红线：很多事在理论上听起来都很美好，但当我们审视我们所处的现实世界时，你该如何定义这些红线？如果无法收回，又会发生什么？

And I think that's why I go back to your red lines of a lot of these things sound great in theory, but when we look at the current reality of the world that we're living in, how do you define these red lines, and and what happens if you can't pull them back?

这里有两点。

So two things there.

第一，这也是我最重要的收获之一：有很多人。

One, that was also one of my biggest takeaways is there are a lot of people.

我不确定这是否是具有代表性的样本，还是只是网络上喧闹的那部分人，但确实有一群在网上非常吵闹的人，他们根本不信任政府会遵守法律。

I don't know if it's a representative sample or just the loud people online, but there is there's at least a group of loud people online who really don't trust the government to follow the law.

这对我们民主制度来说似乎是一个非常糟糕的信号。

And that feels like a very bad sign for our democracy.

我大部分时候是信任的。

I mostly do.

我的意思是，我明白政府并不完美，有些事情难免会出错，但我认为我们有制衡机制，所以我总体上还是信任它的。

I mean, I realize they're not perfect and some things are gonna get screwed up, and I think we have a system of checks and balances, but I mostly trust it.

正如你所说，现在这个时代，人们看到各种事情发生，却只是说：‘别为此感到不安。’

As you said, this is, like, a time where people are looking at things happening and saying, just, you know, don't feel bad about it.

也许我对此感觉不太好。

And maybe this is I don't feel good about it.

也许现在是一个特别糟糕的时期，以至于企业的爱国责任不是支持政府，而是不与政府合作。

And maybe this is such a uniquely bad time that, like, companies' patriotic duty is not to support the not to work with the government.

我对这一点完全不同意。

I totally disagree on that.

我认为，根据我所看到的未来趋势，如果我们不帮助政府应对国家安全问题，这不仅仅是指传统的战争。

I think, again, given what I see on the horizon, if we don't help the government with national security and it's not just wars in the traditional sense.

如果我们不帮助他们保护美国的网络基础设施，不帮助他们应对我们之前谈到的生物防御问题，我认为情况会非常糟糕。

If we don't help them with, you know, defending the cyber infrastructure of The US, we don't help them with the biodefense we were talking about earlier, I think it's really bad.

我认为我们必须与政府合作，但我对当前强烈的不信任情绪估计不足，现在我理解其中的一些原因了。

I think we have to work with the government, but the the intensity of the current mood of mistrust, I was miscalibrated on, and I understand something there now.

一位联邦法官刚刚下令对五角大楼对Anthropic的行动发布临时禁令，称该政府的行为似乎是报复。

A federal judge just ordered a preliminary injunction against the Pentagon's actions on Anthropic, calling the administration's actions what appears to be retaliation.

所以我想听听你对此的看法。

So I'm curious for your response on that.

我们一直明确表示，无论是公开还是私下，都强烈认为政府对Anthropic采取任何类似SCR或威胁DPA的行为都非常糟糕。

We said all the way through that we thought, like, publicly, privately, loudly, that we thought the government doing anything like an SCR or a threat of a DPA against Anthropic was really bad.

我们当时试图帮助提供一个退出的途径。

We were trying to help provide an off ramp there.

我认为这是一件非常糟糕的事情。

I think that's like a very bad thing.

你对Anthropic和政府方面的人有什么建议？

What would be your message to the folks at Anthropic and the government on it?

双方都停止这些行为，停止升级，找到合作的方式。

Stop the stuff on both stop the escalation on both sides and find a way to work together.

我一直在思考我们2020年的上一次对话，有一个故事让我印象深刻。

I was thinking a lot about our last conversation in 2020, and I was struck by a story.

你告诉我，你知道，这算是一个个人故事，但我认为它

You told me that I I you know, it's a kind of a personal story, but I think it's

说吧。

Go for it.

你提到你小时候在密苏里州上高中时，是为数不多的公开出柜的同性恋学生之一，你还曾在全校集会上发表演讲，

You talked about how you were one of the only openly gay students at your high school growing up in Missouri and how you essentially gave a speech in front of

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

向大家讲述这件事，让其他人也开始谈论它，不管他们是否喜欢你，或者是否认同你的观点。

In front of an assembly to talk about it, to put it out there so other people would start talking about it, whether they liked you or not, you said, or whether they, you know, they felt this way or not.

我认为这个时刻有些特别，因为其中充满了愤怒与关注，我感觉你再次站在了聚光灯下，人们正在问你代表什么。

And I think there is something interesting about this moment and the anger and the interest because I feel like you're under the bright lights again and people are asking you what you stand for.

而且，老实说，作为一个认识你十五年的人，我也想弄清楚同样的问题。

And honestly, if I'm being totally honest with someone who's known you for fifteen years, I wanna know the same thing.

你知道，现在这是一个不寻常的时刻。

You know, this is a moment where things aren't normal.

所有那些科技界人士常说的‘我们可以这样做、那样做’，但我们的操作手册已经不同了。

All of these things that tech folks say of like, okay, we can do this and this, but we're this playbook is different.

对。

Yeah.

这不一样。

This is different.

那么，你代表什么？

And so what do you stand for?

我认为这项技术必须实现民主化。

I think this technology has to be democratized.

我可以想象这样一个世界：这项技术要么被集中在少数公司的手中，从财富和未来掌控权的角度来看，由他们来做决策。

I can see a world where this is either something that is concentrated from a, you know, perspective of wealth, but also power over the future in the hands of a small number of companies who wanna make the decisions.

无论他们多么关心我们所有人，将我们对未来的自主权和集体意志交给少数公司，这让我无法接受。

And no matter how much they care about all of us, the idea that we would like trade off our agency and our collective will over the future to a few companies doesn't sit right with me.

我认为我们需要让人民掌握这项技术，并由我们的政府决定社会将如何演变，经济体系将是什么样子。

I think we need to empower people with the technology and have our governments decide how society is going to evolve, what the economic system looks like.

人们需要拥有这项技术。

And people need to have this technology.

我认为我们曾经提出的最重要的理念之一，就是迭代式部署。

And I think one of the most important things that we ever came up with was this idea of iterative deployment.

我们要尽早且频繁地将这项技术推向世界，让人们自己摸索哪些有用、哪些没用，感受它的影响，并由社会来决定未来该何去何从。

We're gonna put the technology out in the world early and often and let people figure out what works for them and what doesn't and get a feel for it and society to decide what should happen.

对这个观点的批评是，我们大约三年前就开始这么做了。

Now the criticism of that idea is we started doing that a little over three years ago.

社会尚未做出我所期望的太多决策，但至少人们已经对即将发生的事情有了些感知。

Society has not made a lot in the way of the decisions I was hoping for, but people at least do have a sense for what's coming.

所以，这种民主化理念是一个非常重要的主题。

So that's that that theme of democratization is a big one.

我认为，赋权与此密切相关。

Empowerment, I think, goes closely along with that.

但我们之前谈到了许多例子，说明人们如何被这项技术真正赋能。

But we talked about a bunch of examples where people have been really empowered with this technology.

是的。

Yes.

我们应该共同决定该如何设置边界，让民主政府继续保持强大权力，并尽可能加强民主制度。

We should all collectively decide what the guardrails should be, and we should, you know, have democratic governments continue to have a lot of power, and we should strengthen the democracy where we can.

我们也应该这样做，我认为这是美国根深蒂固且非常有效的价值观。

We should also and I think this is like a deeply held American value that has worked very well.

我们应该真正赋予个人力量。

We should really empower individual people.

你知道的？

You know?

我们应该设定一些宽泛的规则，然后让人们自己去探索如何为他们的狗治愈癌症，如何创办一个人的初创公司，或者如何设置OpenClaw来自动化生活中一些令人惊叹的事情。

Like, we should set some broad rules and then let people go figure out how to cure cancer for their dog or figure out to make a one person start up or figure out how to set up OpenClaw to, like, automate something amazing in their life.

这会让人们感到不安，因为个体将拥有如此大的权力。

And this is uncomfortable for people because individuals are gonna have so much power.

但我认为民主化和赋权这两点密切相关。

But I think the democratization and empowerment pieces are linked importantly.

富足是我非常关心的一个议题。

Abundance is something that I care a lot about.

如果我回顾我的职业生涯、我所关注的事物，以及我对创造更美好世界所需条件的信念，如果只能选一个词，我会选‘富足’。

If I look at my career and the stuff I've been interested in and kind of what I believe about what it takes to have a better world, and I could pick only one word, I pick abundance.

我认为你希望创造大量的资源、机会，让人们能够拥有精彩的生活，并以各种各样的方式去表达它。

I think you want to just create huge amounts of resources, opportunity, the ability for people to have, like, an amazing life and to sort of express it in all kinds of in all kinds of different ways.

而这就是人工智能。

And that's AI.

它是能源。

It's energy.

未来还会包括机器人之类的东西。

It'll be things like robots in the future.

当然，也要确保我们建造足够的算力来实现这一切。

It's certainly making sure that we build enough compute to make all of this happen.

但这是我真正希望推动的方向。

But that's a place that I, like, really wanna drive towards.

安全问题已经发展或被加入进来，但这一切个人赋权的代价是，一个人也可能造成巨大的伤害。

Safety has evolved and or been added to, but that's another thing that I like the the trade off of all of this individual empowerment is that one person could do a great deal of harm.

因此，建立必要的保障机制来防止这种情况发生，让我们对这种局面感到安心，至关重要。

And so building up guardrails in the world to prevent that, and where we can feel okay about this, is critical.

我列出了若干原则。

I named a bunch of principles.

我还想列出更多，比如公平分享这项技术带来的所有收益、话语权、自主权和决策权，这一点是我几乎不可能改变立场的。

There's more I'd like to name, you know, like fairly sharing all of the upside, and the voice, and the agency and the decision making of this technology is that one seems like one that would be very difficult to ever change my mind on.

是的。

Yeah.

但其他方面，比如安全与自主权之间的权衡，可能会出现某些时期，我们必须说：这项技术的发展方向与我们原先的预期不同。

But other things like maybe the trade off between safety and agency, there'll be periods where we have to say, oh, this technology went in a different way than we thought.

我们非常希望赋予人们力量，但不能以毁灭整个世界为代价。

We really love empowering people, but not at the risk of destroying the whole world.

因此，我们需要在一段时间内采取不同的做法。

So we're gonna have to do something differently for a while.

我们会不断与这些原则进行博弈，我可以说，随着技术的进步，我们必然需要做出调整。

So we will wrestle with these principles all the time, and we I would say with some certainty, we'll have to make changes as the technology progresses.

我不认为人们喜欢听到这些，但这就是事实。

And I don't think people like hearing that, but it is the truth.

一个名叫维拉斯的人，他负责麦戈文研究所。

A man named Velas, he runs the McGovern Institute.

他提了一个问题，我认为这个问题很重要，因为如今当创始人与我们刚开始讨论这项技术时的情况已经大不相同了，那时候感觉更反体制、更混乱。

He asked a question, and I think it's an important question because to be a founder now is really different than it was back when we started talking about this, when it felt a little more anti establishment and chaotic.

现在，似乎有了另一种不同的操作方式。

Now, there's kind of like a different playbook.

所以他问了你该如何应对这个问题。

And so he had a question about how you navigate it.

好的。

Okay.

我们中的许多人成为创始人或建设者，是因为我们想创造一些有用的东西。

Many of us became founders or builders because we wanted to make something useful.

过去，关键在于对产品的狂热专注：打造卓越的产品，并将其交付到用户手中。

It used to be about a fanatic focus on the product, building something great and getting it into people's hands.

但过去几年里，创始人的职责似乎发生了根本性的变化。

But the job of a founder seems to have fundamentally changed over the last few years.

现在，尤其是在人工智能领域，成为一名创始人可能意味着必须筹集主权资本，或在公开场合与国家元首并肩而立，甚至支持政治立场。

Now, especially in AI, being a founder might mean having to raise sovereign capital or stand next to heads of state at a public meeting or endorse political statements.

这可能意味着做出重塑劳动力市场、影响数十亿人生活的决策。

It might mean making decisions that reshape labor markets and affect billions of lives.

这些决策过去是政府的专属领域，需要的准备与开发产品截然不同。

They're the decisions that used to be the domain of governments and required a very different kind of preparation than building a product.

所以，萨姆，作为典型的创始人，我想知道，这是否就是如今成为创始人的含义？

So, Sam, as a quintessential founder, I'm curious, is this what it means to be a founder now?

如果是的话，当创始人做出这类决策时，他们该向谁负责？

And if so, who are founders accountable to when they're making those kinds of decisions?

我们该如何培养他们来承担这份责任？

How are we preparing them to hold that responsibility?

我不认为这对大多数创始人来说意味着这些。

I don't think that's what it means for most founders.

我认为，如果你是那种一两个人或小团队用人工智能创业的公司，现在的感觉比以往任何时候都更接近我们之前提到的2010年时期。

I think, you know, if you're one of these one person or small team companies building with AI, it feels the closest to that 2010 period we were talking about that it's ever felt since then.

我的亲身经历不幸更像是一位政客。

My own experience, unfortunately, does feel more like a politician.

什么意思？

In what sense?

我必须做这些事情。

I have to do those things.

我得去跟政府谈判交易，四处飞行，与世界领导人交谈，处理那些涉及土地和电力以扩大数据中心的交易，而这些原本是政府该做的交易。

I have to go, like, negotiate deals with governments and fly around and, you know, talk to world leaders and work on these deals for land and power for data center expansion that are kind of the kind of deals governments used to do.

这并不是我的自然环境。

It's not my natural environment.

说吧。

Say

继续。

more.

你刚才说的那些。

Was what you were saying earlier.

我的整个生活一直围绕着那种车库创业者的模式。

Like, I I like my whole life has been around kind of the garage version of founders.

是的。

Yeah.

在过去几年里，我穿的西装比之前一生穿的加起来还要多。

I've I've worn a lot more suits in the last couple of years than I've worn in my whole life put together before.

而且感觉 stakes 也高多了。

And and it also feels like the stakes are are much higher.

你所处的场合和以前完全不同了。

You're in very different rooms than you used to be.

你从中学到了什么？

What have you learned about that?

适应这种转变的过程容易吗？

Has it been an easy process to to kind of to to lean into that?

不容易。

No.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

这听起来显而易见，但普通政客和普通创业者之间的技能、性格和世界观差异，我一直知道它们非常不同。

This sounds obvious, but the difference in skills and temperament and worldview between the average politician and the average founder, I kind of knew they were crazy different.

它们的差异比我想象的还要大得多。

They're crazier different than I could have ever imagined.

我觉得我在生活中，随着权力、地位等不断提升，反复学到的一课是：每个人都以为我始终认为房间里有个成年人在掌控一切。

A lesson I feel like I've learned repeatedly in life at higher and higher levels of power and status and whatever is that everyone thinks I always have thought there's, like, some adult in the room.

你总会遇到最终的Boss。

You always get to some final boss.

总有人是有计划的。

There's someone with a plan.

有人清楚自己在做什么。

There's someone who knows exactly what they're doing.

世界上那些领导者也同样不确定、缺乏安全感，他们尽了最大努力，却没有答案，也许这样，也许那样，反正我累了，随便怎么决定都行。

And the leaders of the world are also, you know, uncertain and insecure and trying their best, but don't have the answers and, like, maybe this, maybe that kinda gonna make a call while I'm tired either way.

经营企业却不考虑播客？

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

再想想吧。

Think again.

听播客的美国人比收听Spotify和Pandora广告支持的流媒体音乐的人还多。

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是第二名和第三名加起来的两倍。

And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

所以，无论你的客户听什么，他们都会听到你的信息。

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

而且，只有iHeart能将你的信息扩展到广播电台的受众中。

Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

你觉得播客能帮助你的业务吗？

Think podcasting can help your business?

想想iHeart吧。

Think iHeart.

流媒体、广播和播客。

Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

拨打844844开始吧。

Call 844844 to get started.

就是844844。

That's 844844

你知道罗尔德·达尔吗？他是《查理和巧克力工厂》《玛蒂尔达》和《好心眼儿巨人》的作者。

You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought of Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

但你知道他也曾是一名间谍吗？

But did you know he was also a spy?

这是在他创作故事之前的事吗？

Was this before he wrote his stories?

一定是的。

It must have been.

我们的新播客系列《罗尔德·达尔的隐秘世界》，将带你踏上一段探索他非凡而争议人生中隐藏篇章的奇妙旅程。

Our new podcast series, the secret world of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life.

他的工作本质上就是勾引有权势的美国人的妻子。

His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans.

什么？

What?

而且他在这方面非常在行。

And he was really good at it.

你可能也不会相信。

You probably won't believe it either.

好吧。

Okay.

我不觉得这是真的。

I don't think that's true.

我跟你说真的。

I'm telling you.

我曾经是个间谍。

I was a spy.

你知道吗？达尔曾与罗斯福家族关系密切，跟哈里·杜鲁门一起玩扑克，还与一位国会议员有过长期恋情。

Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?

然后他把才华带到了好莱坞，与沃尔特·迪士尼和阿尔弗雷德·希区柯克合作，之后还写了一部成功的007电影。

And then he took his talents to Hollywood where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.

这位秘密特工是怎么变成史上最成功的儿童文学作家的？

How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever?

他隐秘的过去中，有哪些黑暗元素渗透进了我们童年读过的那些故事？

And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids?

真实的故事比他写过的任何情节都离奇。

The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听《罗尔德·达尔的隐秘世界》。

Listen to the secret world of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

十发子弹射出。

Ten ten shots fired.

市政厅大楼。

City Hall Building.

在现场缴获了一把银色的.40口径手枪。

A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.

由iHeartPodcasts和Best Case Studios出品，这是《罗夏：市政厅谋杀案》。

From iHeartPodcasts and Best Case Studios, this is Rorschach, murder at City Hall.

市政厅怎么会发生这种事？

How could this have happened at City Hall?

有人告诉我吧。

Somebody tell me that.

杰弗里·胡德做的。

Jeffrey Hood did.

2003年7月，

July 2003,

市议员詹姆斯·E·戴维斯带着一位客人抵达纽约市政厅。

councilman James e Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest.

两人均携带隐蔽武器。

Both men are carrying concealed weapons.

不到三十分钟，两人都将死去。

And in less than thirty minutes, both of them will be dead.

大家

Everybody

在议事厅的走廊上。

in the chamber's docks.

一场令人震惊的公开谋杀。

A shocking public murder.

我大喊：趴下！

I scream, get down.

趴下！

Get down.

那是枪声。

Those are shots.

那是枪声。

Those are shots.

趴下。

Get down.

一位富有魅力的政治家。

A charismatic politician.

你知道，

You know,

他总是随意违反规则。

he just bent the rules all the time there.

我仍然带着武器，我可以开枪打死你。

I still have a weapon, and I could shoot you.

还有一个带着秘密的局外人。

And an outsider with a secret.

他声称自己是彻底失败的受害者。

He alleged he was a victim of flat down.

这可能有政治因素，也可能没有。

That may or may not have been political.

这可能与性有关。

That may have been about sex.

收听《Rorschach：市政厅谋杀案》，可在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听。

Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我一直觉得这有点难以置信，直到我真正开始赚钱。

I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money.

本月是金融素养月，播客《穷得吃土》带来关于金钱、成长和构建未来的真实对话。

It's financial literacy month, and the podcast eating while broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.

本月，你将听到顶级主播佐伊·斯宾塞和风险投资人拉基莎·兰德鲁姆·皮埃尔分享她们从起步到成长的经历。

This month, hear from top streamer Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakisha Landrum Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out

到实现跃升。

to leveling up.

如果我和父母在外面，看到这么多人来找我合影，我就想：这是什么情况？

If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what?

现在当然完全是这样了。

Today now, obviously, it's like 100%.

他们什么都信。

They believe everything.

但一开始，他们只是说：你得去找份正经工作。

But at first, it was just like, you gotta go get a

一份正经工作。

real job.

社区繁荣离不开经济因素。

There's an economic component to community thriving.

如果社区里缺乏资金和创业活动，就会衰落。

If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail.

我说的衰落，是指人们连买食物的钱都没有。

And what I mean by fail is they don't have money to pay for food.

他们无法养活自己的孩子。

They cannot feed their kids.

他们没有住所。

They do not have homes.

如果没有资金在社区中流动，社区就无法运转。

Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《黑人效应播客网络》的《穷困时的饮食》。

Listen to eating while broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

嘿，厄尼斯特。

Hey, Earnest.

最近怎么样？

What's up?

你看。

Look.

金钱是我们每个人都需要面对的问题，但财务素养才能帮助我们将收入转化为真正的财富。

Money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth.

在《Earn Your Leisure》播客的每一集中，我们都会拆解那些你需要理解金钱、投资和创业的对话。

On each episode of the podcast Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.

从股票和房地产到信贷、商业和代际财富，我们将复杂的金融话题转化为每个人都能理解的日常对话。

From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand.

因为事实是，大多数人从未被教导过金钱究竟是如何运作的。

Because the truth is, most people were never taught how money really works.

但一旦你理解了这个系统，你就可以开始在这个系统中构建自己的东西。

But once you understand a system, you can start to build within it.

这意味着拥有资产、更聪明地投资，并为自己乃至下一代创造机会。

That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation.

如果你想学习如何积累财富、理解市场并以所有者的心态思考，那么《Earn Your Leisure》就是为你量身打造的播客。

If you wanna learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, Earn Your Leisure is the podcast for you.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《Earn Your Leisure》。

Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

我想稍微转向一个我认为我们都关心的话题，但我觉得这可能是我所能想到的最具挑战性的事情——在这个人工智能时代为人父母。

Doing kind of a hard pivot to something I think we both care about, but I think is probably like the most high stakes thing I could think of is being a parent in this era of AI.

我们都在抚养年幼的儿子。

We're both raising young boys.

我想我之前跟你说过，我们都在抚养年幼的儿子，但从某种意义上说，你也在抚养我的儿子。

And I think I said this to you before, like, we're both raising young boys, but in a sense, you're raising my son too.

你所构建的技术将融入我儿子查理生活的方方面面。

Like, the technology that you build will be integrated into every facet of my son Charlie's

我希望你别让他现在就用。

I hope you don't let him use it yet.

我绝对不让他用。你打算什么时候让你儿子用？

I am absolutely not letting him use When are you letting your son use it?

还不行，得再等等。

Not for a while.

你有具体的想法吗？

Do you have an idea?

人们经常问我，比如，你现在有了孩子，或者将来还会再要孩子，你是否觉得更有责任，不能用人工智能毁了这个世界？

You know, people ask me all the time, like, oh, now that you have a kid or gonna have more kids, like, do do you feel more responsibility about how you don't destroy the world with AI?

你呢？

Do you?

不。

No.

我的首要任务是不要用人工智能毁掉这个世界。

Like, my highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.

如果我们做到了这一点，其他一切都无足轻重。

Like, it doesn't matter how good everything else is if we do that.

所以我早就知道我会当爸爸。

So I knew I was gonna have kids.

我知道自己会反复思考，我未来的孩子将要成长的世界会是什么样子，而且我曾经每天晚上都给他写一封信。

I and I knew that I thought a lot about what I would feel about the world my future kids would grow up in and, you know, that I I used to write my kid a letter every night.

律师们最终劝我别再写了。

The lawyers eventually convinced me to stop.

但这确实是一件很美好的事，因为每当我回家很晚，刚好在他睡觉前，我会抱着他哄他入睡。

But it was a nice thing to do about just because I when I would, like, put him to bed, I would just sort of I get home late, like, right before his bedtime, and I'd, you know, be rocking him.

他需要一些能和孩子聊的话题，所以我就会跟他讲我一天的经历和正在发生的事。

He needs something to talk to a kid about, so I would just tell him about my day and what was going on.

而且，你知道，一个四五个月大的婴儿根本不会理解这些事。

And, you know, obviously, a five month old, four month old baby is not gonna understand these things.

所以我就想，嘿，不如这样吧？

So I was like, you know what?

我把这些写下来。

I'll write them down.

等以后再给他，因为那确实是个特别的时期。

I'll give them to him later because it was sort of interesting time.

但写这些信的一个有趣之处在于，你根本无法掩饰任何事。

But an interesting thing about writing those letters would be like, you can't really hide anything.

你会成为最真实的自己，写下给孩子的每一句话都反映着你当下的决定。

Like, you will be the most honest version of yourself and the decisions you're making in the thing you write to your kid.

所以我真的很喜欢做这件事。

So I really loved doing it.

这就像我每个周日晚上的例行公事：梳理这一周遇到的难题，解释我为什么做出这样的决定。

It was like my every Sunday night ritual about, like, here was the hard stuff that came this week, and here's why I decided and why.

还有，你知道的，这是我担心的事情。

And, you know, here's what I'm worried about.

但以这种心态写给你的孩子，让他们在

But the, like, the mindset of writing that to your kid to read in

是的。

Yeah.

十五年或二十年后阅读，真的很有趣。

You know, fifteen or twenty years, very interesting.

但不会。

But no.

关于不要让人工智能毁掉这个世界，我始终立场坚定。

On the, like, not destroy the world with AI, always very set on that.

有一件事发生了巨大变化，就是我对算法推荐、以及让幼儿接触iPad之类东西的看法。

A thing that has changed hugely is how I feel about algorithmic feeds and iPads in small children's hands and stuff like that.

当我看到比我孩子大一点的孩子，根本离不开iPad，一直盯着那些短内容看，不管他们在看什么，我都对此感到非常强烈。

And when I watch kids just a little bit older than mine that you cannot take the iPad away from, watching this sort of, like, short you know, watching, like, whatever they're watching, that I feel very strongly about.

所以我不知道什么时候会让他和AI交流，但我宁愿在合理范围的后期再这么做，而不是早早地就让他接触。

So I don't know when I would let him talk to AI, but I'd rather be on the late end of what's reasonable there, not the early end.

当然，我觉得这很棒，他会长大在一个计算机比他更聪明、能完成他任何需求的世界里。

Of course, I think it's, like, great, and it'll he'll grow up in a world where computers are smarter than him and do anything he wants.

但你知道，我现在更想让他去玩泥巴。

But, you know, I wanted to, like, play in the dirt for now.

有意思的是，你提到了这些算法世界。

Well, I mean, what's interesting is you talk about these algorithmic worlds.

作为妈妈，我也会经常思考这个问题。

I think a lot about this as a mom too.

这些科技人士，他们自己创造了一大堆东西，却送孩子去学校时根本不让用iPad。

Like, oh, these tech guys, they're just gonna create all this stuff and then send their their children to school with, like, no iPads.

对吧？

Right?

所以我会去思考，会去琢磨人工智能，还有这款产品的影响力到底有多大。

And so I think about like, I think about AI and how powerful this product is.

毕竟它的个性化程度非常高，永远在线，无时无刻都在你身边。

I mean, it is highly personalized, it's always on, it's always there.

现在已经有人整天和人工智能聊天，变得越来越脱离现实了。

You have people who are becoming increasingly delusional by talking to AI all day.

我们已经出现过多起人工智能引发精神病的案例，还有人因为AI伴侣最终选择了自杀。

We've had issues of AI psychosis, people ending their lives because of AI companions.

我很好奇，你应该是不希望人工智能变成下一个社交媒体吧。

I'm curious, like, you don't want AI to become the next social media.

那想想都太可怕了。

That is terrifying.

但如果没有恰当的约束措施，这个世界就真有可能发展成那样。

But we're in a world where that could be a possibility without the correct guardrails.

我们要在不断了解人们会和人工智能建立怎样的关系的过程中，为大家用好人工智能提供便利。

Just as we learn more about the relationship people are going to have with AI, we should make it easy for them to succeed.

我们应该让他们更容易建立健康的关系，同时给予成年人更多的自由。

We should make it easy for them to have the healthy relationship, and then give adults a lot of freedom.

但孩子和青少年，我认为他们需要在AI周围设置很多保护措施。

But kids, teenagers, I think they will need a lot of guardrails around AI.

这是一件如此强大且全新的事物。

This is this is such a powerful and such a new thing.

你提到过，我们打算如何送孩子去上学。

You mentioned, like, sending how we're gonna send our kids to school.

在这里，有一个我非常期待的未来版本。

There is a version of the future here that I'm very excited about.

新的学校正在涌现，每天可能只有几个小时是与AI进行高强度的个性化一对一辅导，然后你可以根据学校设定的主题，自由探索自己想做的项目。

These new schools are popping up where you have, you know, like, maybe a couple of hours a day of intense personalized one on one tutoring with AI, and then you kind of explore project based on the school, sets up whatever you wanna work on.

这听起来很棒。

That seems great.

这种情形正是我能够完全想象出来的。

That's the kind of thing where I'm like, I can totally imagine that.

但你也可以想象许多事情走向错误的世界。

But you can also imagine a lot of worlds where it goes wrong.

在你看来，AI 在孩子成长过程中，会在哪些方面带来巨大的价值？

And what world do you see AI being a very huge value add to the way our children grow up?

所以我认为，目前关于 AI 在教育中的作用，可以讲两个故事。

So I think there's like two stories you can tell about AI in education right now.

一个是，人人都在用它来作弊。

One is you can say everybody's using it to cheat.

他们并不是真的在用它来学习。

They're not really using to learn.

他们，而且学校让孩子们手写论文，因为他们还没能找到如何设计一套允许学生使用 AI 的课程。

They're and, you know, schools are making their kids, like, write essays by hand because they have not been able to figure out what how to teach a curriculum where people can use AI.

另一个说法是，世界以前也经历过类似的转变。

And the other is you can say, well, the world has been through transitions like this before.

我们曾经对计算器感到恐慌。

We freaked out about calculators.

我们曾对谷歌感到恐慌。

We freaked out about Google.

我们曾对电脑感到恐慌。

We freaked out about computers.

这需要一点时间。

And it takes a little while.

才过去了三年。

It's only been three years.

但我们确实会找到方法，教人们以更高的水平思考和成就，学会使用他们成年后在社会中将拥有的工具。

But we do figure out how to teach people to think and achieve at a higher level and to work with the tools that they will have as an adult in society.

你知道，我确实遇到一些孩子和老师，他们说：好吧。

And, you know, I definitely meet kids and teachers who are like, okay.

行吧。

Fine.

我教不了人。

I can't teach people.

我再也无法像以前那样很好地评估论文了，我觉得孩子们也没有以同样的方式学习写作。

I can't, like, evaluate an essay as well anymore, and I think the kids aren't learning to write in the same way.

但很可能成年人在未来也不会以同样的方式写论文。

But probably adults won't write essays in the same way in the future either.

真正重要的是，你是否教会学生思考、创造和探索，激发他们的思维，去发现和拓展想法。

And what really matters is, do you teach the students to think and create and figure out, you know, stretch their brain and come up with, like, explore ideas.

然后我看到有些人正在做的，比如学生们正在构建完整而复杂的软件和世界，去理解非常困难的新概念，这些难度远超我在学校时需要解决的任何问题。

And then I see what some people are doing where, like, students are building entire new complex pieces of software and worlds and, you know, figuring out very difficult new ideas, much more difficult to figure out than anything I had to figure out in school.

我预计我的孩子们高中毕业后，会比我聪明得多、有能力得多，大脑也发展得更加充分。

And I assume my kids, they finish high school, will be, like, wildly smarter and more capable and have, like, developed their brain much more than I did.

作为一位母亲，我无法停止思考关于‘摩擦’这个概念。

I can't stop thinking as a mom about this idea of friction.

对吧？

Right?

跟一个科技从业者说这个可能有点奇怪，但人类本身就是混乱的。

Like this is a weird thing to say to a tech person, but like humanity is messy.

脆弱感很奇怪。

Like vulnerability is weird.

亲密感很尴尬。

Intimacy is awkward.

这一切都很混乱，但正是在这片混乱中，我们找到了意义，也培养了力量。

It's all a mess, but it's in that mess that we find purpose and we build strength.

而我们现在所交互的AI系统在许多方面都令人惊叹，它们提供的是毫无阻力的体验。

And AI systems we now interact with are so incredible in so many ways, and they are a frictionless experience.

因此，想到我儿子的成长，我在想，会不会有捷径？

And so I wonder, thinking about my son growing up, like, will there be shortcuts?

如果我们不够谨慎，他会不会缺少必要的阻力，无法成长为他本可以成为的那个人？

And if we're not careful, will there not be the friction for him to develop into the person that he could be?

我和阿里经常讨论这个问题。

Ali and I talk about this a lot.

就像就像

Like like

Ali是你丈夫。

Ali's your husband.

是的。

Yeah.

我可能会称之为逆境，而不是摩擦。

I would maybe call it adversity, not friction.

但也许‘摩擦’这个词更好。

But maybe friction's a better word.

对一个人来说是逆境，对另一个人来说是摩擦。

Adversity to one person, friction to the other.

但我觉得我学到的很多东西，都来自于混乱和困难之中。

But, like, so much of what I think I learned was in the messiness, in the difficulty.

甚至包括无聊。

Actually, even in the boredom.

对，没错。

Like Right.

你和我是最后一代在无聊中长大的孩子。

You and I were kind of the last generation of kids that grew up bored.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候，我讨厌这种感觉。

And at the time, I hated it.

现在回头看，我觉得它以各种奇怪的方式带来了巨大的价值。

Looking back, I think it was just like super valuable in all of these strange ways.

我在郊区长大，经常在购物中心的停车场闲逛。

I grew up in the suburbs hanging out at mall parking lots.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

现在回想起来，我只想说：老天保佑我。

Back on it, I'm like, god help me.

也没有手机。

Also No phones.

我们那时候没有，就是你

We didn't have we just, you

没有手机。

No phones.

但那种感觉确实有一种魔力，虽然我并不想对引领AI技术革命的人怀旧，但那种体验确实塑造了今天的我。

But there was a certain, not to be nostalgic with the person leading the tech revolution of AI, but like there was a magic to that that I also think made me who I am.

完全对。

Totally.

所以我不想过于留恋过去，但我确实想弄清楚，我们该如何保留那些美好的部分，以及需要创造怎样的环境，让孩子们成长时还能拥有类似的经历。

So I don't want to like hang on to the past too much, but I do want to find out, like figure out how we don't throw out the good parts of of that, and and what it's gonna take to create an environment for kids to grow up in that still has some of that.

我觉得我的直觉是，这非常重要。

I think it my intuition is it's very important.

我想播放一段贝基医生的音频。

I wanna play a little sound from doctor Becky.

你知道贝基医生是谁吗？

Do you who doctor Becky is?

好的。

Okay.

贝基医生对此说过一些话。

Well, doctor Becky said something on this.

我上周刚采访过她，她对这个问题有自己的看法。

I just interviewed her, like, last week, and she had a thought on this.

如果我了解一件事关于在AI时代成长的青少年，那就是他们会面临很多棘手的、混乱的情况。

If I know one thing about tweens and teens growing up in an AI age, they're gonna have a lot of tricky situations, a lot of messy situations.

我最近对我14岁的孩子说，如果你正走向一个城镇，想到达那里，突然出现了一条捷径，你会走吗？

I said to my kid recently, my 14 year old, you know, if you were walking to a town and you wanted to get there, and all of a sudden there's a shortcut, would you take it?

他回答说，是的。

He was like, yeah.

这是个陷阱问题吗？

Is this a trick question?