那位建造苹果专卖店的人从未试图向你推销任何东西

把时钟拨回到2000年。

Turn back the clock to 2000.

苹果当时是一家成立25年的公司，基本上已经被打败了。

Apple was a twenty five year old company that had largely been defeated.

他们发明了个人电脑。

Now they invented the personal computer.

史蒂夫在97年回来了。

Steve came back in '97.

苹果当时只有5%的市场份额。

Apple had 5% market share.

微软占了95%。

Microsoft had 95.

如果把这比作棒球比赛，他们落后了19比1。

Now if he translated that to a baseball game, they were behind '19 to one.

那是罗恩·约翰逊，苹果零售店的创始人，也是《与众不同》的作者，他讲述了为什么这个全球最强大的零售品牌从不试图向你推销任何东西。

That was Ron Johnson, creator of the Apple Store and author of Shop Different on why the world's most powerful retail brand never tries to sell you anything.

我是Motley Fool的分析师Jason Moser。

I'm Motley Fool analyst Jason Moser.

Ron曾多年与Steve Jobs并肩工作，从零开始打造Apple Store。

Ron spent years working directly alongside Steve Jobs to build the Apple Store from the ground up.

他的新书分享了这段经历教给他的关于零售、领导力以及如何让顾客真正终身忠诚的见解。

And his new book reveals what that experience taught him about retail, leadership, and what makes customers stay genuinely loyal for life.

在这次对话中，Ron和我聊了Apple零售冒险的内幕故事，他认为新任苹果CEO John Turnus不必急于求成，以及他在JCPenney那次非常公开的失误教会了他什么，那是任何成功都无法教给他的。

In this conversation, Ron and I talked about the inside story of Apple's retail gamble, why he thinks new Apple CEO John Turnus doesn't need to be in a hurry, and what his very public stumble at JCPenney taught him that no amount of success ever could.

希望你们喜欢。

We hope you enjoy.

欢迎收听Motley Fool Conversations，我是Jason Moser，今天我很高兴邀请到Apple Store的创始人，Mr.

Welcome to Motley Fool Conversations, I'm Jason Moser and today I am excited to welcome the creator of the Apple Store, Mr.

Ron Johnson。

Ron Johnson.

在加入Apple之前，Ron是Target的商户负责人，离开Apple后，他担任了JCPenney的CEO，同时他还是一位作家。

Prior to Apple, Ron was a merchant leader at Target, and post Apple, he served as the CEO of JCPenney, and he's also an author.

他的新书《另类销售：零售如何展现苹果的天才》现在已经上市，在任何买书的地方都能买到。

His new book, Shop Different How Retail Revealed Apple's Genius, is out now and available wherever you get your books.

罗恩，欢迎来到我们的节目。

Ron, welcome to the show.

杰森，谢谢你邀请我。

Well, Jason, thanks for having me on.

很高兴能和你在一起。

It's great to be with you.

能在这里见到你，我非常激动，也很期待我们的对话。

It's a big thrill to meet you here, and I I just looking forward to the conversation.

我想我们就直接开始吧。

I think I just wanna get started here.

你知道，你的职业生涯很特别。

You know, your career is unique.

它涵盖了整个零售环境的方方面面。

It covers such a broad cross section of the overall retail environment.

所以我想从最开始讲起。

So I guess I'd like to start at the beginning.

好的。

Sure.

聊聊你在塔吉特的那段经历吧。

Talk about your time at Target.

是什么吸引你抓住那个机会的？

What was it that drew you to that opportunity?

嗯，我当时在商学院读书。

Well, I was in business school.

我上的是哈佛商学院。

I went to Harvard Business School.

但我在明尼阿波利斯郊区长大，塔吉特就是在那里创立的。

But I'd grown up in a suburb of Minneapolis, where Target was founded.

戴顿哈德逊公司的总部也在那里。

Where Dayton Hudson was based.

而且我很喜欢待在店里。

And I love being in stores.

所以商学院毕业的时候，我和很多同学一样，收到了投行的offer，像高盛和所罗门都给了我工作机会。

And so when I was graduating from business school, I had offers like a lot of the kids did to go into investment banking, like a Goldman or Solomon, both offered me jobs.

但我更想做一件可能一辈子都会热爱的事情。

But I kinda wanted to do something I might love for a lifetime.

我觉得不是银行业，所以我选了零售。

And I didn't think it was banking, and so I picked retail.

我喜欢待在店里。

I love being in stores.

所以我就去了当时戴顿哈德森旗下的一个子公司，后来改名为塔吉特，现在大家都这么叫。

And so I went to work with a subsidiary at the time of Dayton Hudson, which got renamed Target as most of your people now.

我去了西海岸的梅尔文斯，商学院毕业后就开始工作，负责卸货卡车，那真的很有意思。

I called Mervin's on the West Coast, and I started after business school, I got to download trucks, which was really fun.

我卸货特别快。

I could do it really fast.

状态好的时候，我大概四十五分钟就能卸完一大卡车货，然后把货摆到卖场和库房里。

I could get a big trailer done in about forty five minutes on a good day and filled on the floor and in the stockroom.

后来他们让我去收银台帮忙，顺便整理衣服。

And then they let me work on the cash wrap and straighten clothes.

不过最后呢，我大概三十岁左右进了塔吉特。

And but eventually, I, you know, ended up at Target at about age 30.

那时候在塔吉特工作真是个好时机。

It was a great time to be there.

大概是1990年，那时候折扣战打得最激烈。

It was about 1990, and that's when the discount wars were at their peak.

你知道，美国当时大概有十到十二家折扣店，感觉每个地区都有一家。

You know, The US had about 10 to 12 discount stores, one for every region it seemed.

但很明显，最后就剩下沃尔玛和塔吉特在竞争。

But it was clear it was gonna come down to Walmart and Target.

塔吉特是价格稍高、面向郊区的差异化品牌，而沃尔玛是低成本、主打农村市场的运营商。

And Target was the higher priced suburban differentiator, and Walmart was the low cost rural operator.

但他们当时正往郊区扩张，那真是一场大战。

But they were now moving into the suburbs and it was a great battle.

所以我在塔吉特当采购员，算是真正在零售业里摸爬滚打。

And so I kinda cut my teeth in retail really as a merchant at Target.

那是我工作里很重要的一部分。

And that was a big part of what I did.

好的。

Okay.

现在我们聊到了你人生的一个关键时刻。

So now we're getting to a seminal moment in your life.

我想说，这也是苹果的关键时刻。

And and that of Apple's, I might say, as well.

你去了苹果。

You go to Apple.

那这一切是怎么发生的？

Now, how did that unfold?

我是说，去那么重要又了不起的公司，即使当时它可能还没到今天的地位，这依然是个很大的变动。

I mean, going to such a an important and amazing business, and even at that time, maybe it wasn't quite where it is today, still a big move.

那这是怎么发生的呢？

How did that unfold?

嗯，其实当时没人觉得我去那里是个好主意。

Well, it was actually pretty when no one thought it was a good idea for me to go there.

因为如果你把时间拨回到2000年。

And because if you go turn back the clock to two thousand.

对吧？

K?

我是1999年底去的苹果，差不多是99年末。

This is when I went to Apple in 1999, late ninety nine.

那时候苹果已经成立25年了，但基本上已经被打败了。

Apple was a twenty five year old company that had largely been defeated.

你知道，他们发明了个人电脑。

You know, they invented the personal computer.

史蒂夫在97年回来了。

Steve came back in '97.

苹果当时只有5%的市场份额。

Apple had 5% market share.

微软占了95%。

Microsoft had 95.

如果拿棒球比赛来打比方，他们落后了19比1。

Now if he translated that to a baseball game, they were behind 19 to one.

我是说，苹果当时就是这么艰难。

I mean, that's how tough it was for Apple.

但史蒂夫决定要开实体店。

But Steve concluded, he wanted to open stores.

这很能说明史蒂夫这个人，因为那是2000年，互联网即将主宰世界。

And that says a lot about Steve because this was 2000 when the Internet was gonna take over the world.

像马克·安德森这样的知名风险投资家都说，未来实体店将不复存在。

And prominent venture capitalists like Marc Andreessen said, you know, in the future will no longer exist.

就像现在人们说，AI来了，我们就不存在了。

It's like people today saying, the AI, we're not gonna exist.

你懂吗？

You know?

人们以为这种技术会那样改变世界。

People thought this technology would change the world in that way.

但史蒂夫心里清楚。

And but Steve knew.

而且二十五年后，如果苹果产品再好，没有门店，光靠技术也赢不了，那就是缺失的一环。

And after twenty five years, if Apple had better products but couldn't win, you know, with technology without a store, that was the missing link.

他想改进苹果的市场推广方式。

And he wanted to improve Apple's go to market.

他打电话给我聊这件事，因为我在塔吉特做过一些相当重要的工作。

He called me to talk to me about it because I had done some pretty significant work at Target.

我是把设计带到塔吉特的人。

I was the guy who brought design to Target.

现在所有的功劳都归我了。

Now I get all the credit for it.

其实很多人一起做了这件事，但我促成了与迈克尔·格雷夫斯的合作，这确实改变了塔吉特。

A lot of people did that together, but, I brought a partnership with Michael Graves, which kinda changed Target.

给各位投资者提个醒，1990年买塔吉特股票是个好选择。

For your investors out there, Target would have been a good buy in 1990.

那十年里股价涨了12倍。

It went up 12 times during the decade.

对，没错。

Oh, yeah.

12倍相当不错了。

12 x was pretty good.

那段时间它确实跑赢了沃尔玛。

It really outperformed Walmart during that period.

但过去二十五年，沃尔玛在这场竞争中赢了。

Walmart's now won the last twenty five years of that battle.

但我去了苹果，和史蒂夫一起创建了那些门店。

But I went to Apple to work with Steve to create the stores.

当时有争议的原因是苹果的股价只比现金价值高一点点。

Now the reason was controversy is Apple was trading a little above cash value.

你知道，苹果被视为一家高风险公司。

You know, Apple was seen as a high risk company.

史蒂夫以在电梯里解雇人而闻名。

Steve was kind of legendary for firing people in the elevator.

而我在Target的职业生涯非常成功，发展得特别好。

And I've had this great career at Target, which is just doing awesome.

人们说，你为什么要离开去苹果那样的公司？

You know, people said, why would you leave to go to a company like Apple?

Target有十万种产品。

And Target's got a 100,000 products.

苹果只有四种。

Apple has four.

你打算怎么做？

What are you gonna do?

你要围绕四个产品来建一家店。

You're gonna build a store around four products.

然后我见了史蒂夫，我说这就是我想做的，然后我就做了。

And I just I met Steve, and I said, this is what I wanna do, and I did it.

你知道吗？

You know?

我一直很惊讶，那些店到现在还是那么拥挤。

I'm always amazed at at how crowded those stores still are to this day.

这总是让人惊叹。

It's it's always just astounding.

你去商场，其他店几乎都是空的。

You could go to a mall and, like, every other store is empty.

苹果店，你完全可以打包票。

The Apple Store, you just you can bet dollars to donuts.

肯定会满的。

It's gonna be full.

肯定会很忙，人们就是喜欢待在那里。

It's gonna be busy, and people are just loving being there.

刚才节目开头提到过，你是苹果零售店的创始人，我觉得这真是太了不起了。

Now, mentioned at the top of the show, you're the creator of the Apple Store, which I think is just phenomenal.

你谈到你是怎么说服史蒂夫·乔布斯基于爱来建店的。

Now, you talked about how you convinced Steve Jobs to build a store based on love.

而且苹果零售店也证明了，爱，我觉得，可以作为一种商业策略。

And the Apple Store shows how love, I think, works as a business strategy.

你觉得公司怎么才能把爱融入工作场所呢？

How do you think companies can incorporate love into the workplace?

嗯，我觉得你需要——就像我跟史蒂夫说的，当我告诉他时，他说，罗恩，我们最初的对话之一就是，我们的服务策略会是什么？

Well, I think you need to as I spoke to Steve, when I told Steve, he said, Ron, one of the first conversations is, what's our service strategy gonna be?

我说，我们会爱我们的顾客。

And I said, we're gonna love our customer.

他说，嗯，我不爱我的——你说我们要爱顾客是什么意思？

And he said, well, I don't love my what do you mean we're gonna love our customer?

我不爱我们的顾客。

I don't I don't love our customer.

这个词对他来说很陌生。

That's a strange word to him.

不是说他不爱家人和妻子，而是他不理解工作中怎么谈爱。

Not that he didn't love his family and his wife, but he didn't understand love at work.

我说，不是的。

And I said, no.

爱是行得通的。

Love works.

我说，听我解释。

I said, here's what it means.

我能看出来你爱顾客，因为你设计产品的方式就体现了这一点。

You love customers, I can tell, because of how you design products.

现在你的首要任务是让产品易于使用。

Now your number one priority is ease of use.

你这样做是为了确保客户的利益。

You do that to secure the good of a customer.

爱就是这么简单。

That's all love is.

你找到客户，问自己一个问题：我怎样才能确保他们的利益？

You find a customer, you ask the question, how can I secure their good?

他们需要什么？

What is it they need?

所以，史蒂夫，这很简单。

So it says very simple, Steve.

每个进店的人，我们都会热情欢迎。

Everyone who comes to the store, we're gonna give them a warm welcome.

我们会问他们那天为什么来店里，因为没有人会无缘无故走进来。

We're gonna ask them why they came to the store that day because nobody walks in by accident.

有很多商店你都会去。

There's a lot of stores that you go.

他们进来这里，不管他们是不是……我我我，我想说，我从来没试过Mac。

They came in here whether they're or I I I'd like to I've never tried a Mac.

那好，我们为什么不给你装一台Mac呢？

Well, why don't we set you up on a Mac?

我们会帮你上手。

We'll get you started.

然后让你自己用。

I'll let you go.

如果有什么问题，随时回来找我们。

And we if have any questions, just reach out and come back.

如果没有，就好好享受吧。

If not, just have fun.

等你用完了，我们下次再见。

And when you're done, you know, we'll see you next time.

但核心就是顾客需要什么，我们就确保他们那天来店里时，能跟员工互动，我们解决他们来的原因，然后给他们一个热情的告别。

But it was all about whatever the customer needs, let's make sure when they come to the store that day, they interact with employee, we address their reason for coming, and give them a fond farewell.

你懂吗？

You know?

这就是所谓的爱。

And that's what love was.

你懂吗？

You know?

所以爱始于你有一个如何照顾顾客的愿景。

And so love starts by having a vision for how you're gonna take care of customers.

但更重要的是你如何关爱你的员工。

But then it's most important how you love your employees.

同样的事情。

Same thing.

你如何保障员工的利益？

How do you secure the good of an employee?

你得把招聘流程的每一步都做好，所有的事情都是为了创造一个大家喜欢工作的地方。

And you just gotta go through every step in the hiring process, your everything you do to create a place people love to work.

你明白吗？

You know?

但其实这真的很简单。

But that's it's really quite simple.

我们在个人生活中整天都在爱别人。

We love people all day long in our personal lives.

你知道，问题就是怎么在工作中做到这一点。

You know, it's just how do we do that at work?

对吧？

You know?

我们一直有个想法，杰森，就是不要试图推销任何东西。

We always had an idea, you know, Jason, was don't try to sell anything.

你知道，我跟史蒂夫说过，我们不会靠推销来取得成功。

You know, I I told Steve, we're not gonna sell our way to success.

那是交易性的。

That's transactional.

你越想推销，反而会把人吓跑，而不是吸引他们。

You're gonna turn more people off trying to do it than you're gonna turn on.

你知道，我们要通过服务来赢得尊重。

You know, we're gonna serve our way to significance.

而这尊重，就是对他们生活的意义。

And that's significance in their lives.

有人说，领导力不仅仅在于你要去哪里。

They say leadership isn't just about where you're going.

更在于你实现目标的那份坚定信念。

It's about the conviction it takes to get there.

对于那些追求卓越、渴望掌控一切的人来说，有一款同样非凡的座驾。

For those who demand the world and possess the drive to claim it, there's a vehicle of equal distinction.

设计动感，专为极致影响力而生，揽胜运动版在你领跑的那一刻，便与你并肩同行。

Dynamic by design and engineered for pure impact, the Range Rover Sport rises to meet you the moment you take the lead.

这是迄今为止最先进的揽胜运动版，堪称毫不妥协的性能与无拘无束的敏捷性的典范。

This is the most advanced Range Rover Sport yet, a master class in uncompromised performance and unbridled agility.

内饰方面，创新设计浑然一体。

Inside, the innovation is seamless.

你会发现一块优雅的13.1英寸触控屏，车辆所有系统的全面控制尽在指尖。

You'll find an elegant 13.1 inch touchscreen that puts total control of the vehicle's systems right at your fingertips.

但真正让它与众不同的是那份精致。

But it's the refinement that sets it apart.

雕塑般的22向加热座椅，内置按摩功能，确保每一次旅程都享有无与伦比的舒适。

Sculpted 22 way heated seating with built in massage function ensures every journey is defined by peerless comfort.

无论是独特的内饰装饰还是定制轮毂选项，个性化你的揽胜运动版的方式几乎无穷无尽。

Whether it's through unique interior finishes or custom wheel options, the ways to personalize your Range Rover Sport are nearly unlimited.

掌控全场，体验动感中的极致奢华。

Command attention and experience ultimate luxury in motion.

现在就有专属优惠。

Exclusive offers are available now.

更多详情，请访问rangerover.com。

Explore further at rangerover.com.

每周三，我们在《Windows每周谈》中聊微软。

Every Wednesday, we talk Microsoft on Windows weekly.

大家好。

Hi.

我是Leo Laporte，邀请您本周和我、Paul Therott以及Richard Campbell一起聊聊Sonos的回归。

This is Leo Laporte inviting you to join me, Paul Therott, and Richard Campbell this week as we talk about the return of Sonos.

但您还会再买一台Sonos音箱吗？

But will you buy another Sonos speaker?

Paul说他会。

Paul says he's gonna.

Windows 11版本26H2进入发布预览阶段，IFA正在柏林举行。

Windows 11 version 26 h two goes to release preview, and EEFA is underway in Berlin.

我们会聊聊一些新笔记本，包括RTX Spark。

We'll talk about some new laptops, including the RTX Spark.

Windows 周刊。

Windows weekly.

你可以在 twit.tv/ww 以及任何你收听播客的地方找到它。

You'll find it at twit.tv/ww and wherever you get your podcasts.

我想问你一个问题。

I wanna ask you.

你说在塔吉特的时候，你以为自己是在大胆做梦，但后来史蒂夫·乔布斯改变了你的看法。

You say at Target, you thought you were dreaming big, but then Steve Jobs changed that perspective for you.

我想知道你能分享一下这种心态转变是怎样的。

I wonder what you could share about that mindset shift.

塔吉特，和很多公司一样，在九十年代是一家很棒的公司，现在他们又迎来了一个不错的时期。

Target, like many it was a great company in the nineties, and it's still they're having a good period again now.

大家都知道，他们换了一位新的首席执行官。

They've got a new CEO as we all probably know.

是的。

And Yeah.

他们似乎又回到了正轨，你知道的，就是塔吉特该有的样子。

They seem to be getting back to their, you know, target.

但在塔吉特，你被鼓励要与众不同，因为我们得跟沃尔玛区分开。

But, you know, at Target, you were encouraged to be different because we had to be different than Walmart.

不过，真正的颠覆性创新其实并不被鼓励。

But radical innovation wasn't really encouraged.

比如，当我为迈克尔·格雷夫斯做那个大设计时，CEO对我说，罗尼，他说，我觉得这是个好主意。

Like, when I did the big design in this for Michael Graves, the CEO said to me, Ronnie, he goes, I think it's a good idea.

你不如拿三件商品，放在后面的端架上，看看有没有人买。

Why don't you use three items, put them on a back end cap, and see if anyone buys them?

如果卖得好，再上第四件。

And if they do well, do a fourth.

结果呢，我们一开始就推出了140款产品。

Well, you know, we launched with a 140 products.

我们把家居区两条主通道全占了。

We took over the two main aisles of the home area.

在很多方面，它改变了塔吉特。

And in many ways, it changed Target.

但是，你知道吗，我在塔吉特的时候，如果你想法很大，会有很多人质疑，也许我们不应该这么做。

But, you know, when I was at Target, you know, you had to if you thought big, there were a lot of people challenging why that maybe we shouldn't do that.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且有很多阻力，你得硬推过去。

And there's a lot of kinda pull back, and you push it through.

但那很费劲。

But it was work.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以当我到了苹果，直接向史蒂夫·乔布斯汇报。

So I get to Apple and, you know, I'm now reporting to Steve Jobs.

不管我想什么，他都已经想得更远一步了。

And whatever I thought of, he's thinking one step beyond.

你知道吗？

You know?

他会想得很大，他会想得更大。

He would I think big, he'd think bigger.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得，史蒂夫有这个特权。

Steve, I think, had the privilege.

你知道吗？

You know?

他在二十出头就改变了世界，发明了个人电脑，就是苹果电脑，然后在24岁就上市了。

He changed the world in his early twenties, inventing the personal computer, you know, the Apple computer and and went public in at age 24.

他后来又用皮克斯在电影领域再次做到了。

He did it again with Pixar with movies.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以他的一生都在做这些真正重要的事情。

So he lived his life to do these really significant things.

你知道，那就是iPod。

You know, that was the iPod.

那就是手机。

That was the phone.

那就是iPad。

That was the iPad.

那就是音乐商店。

That was the music store.

对他来说，那就是苹果的零售店。

That was the stores to him.

你知道，他知道零售对苹果很重要，但他希望做到最好。

You know, he knew retail was important for Apple, but he wanted it to be great.

所以在我们制作原型的第一年里，他投入了大量个人时间，确保这是他所能想象到的最好的样子。

And so he invested a lot of his personal time during the first year when we created the prototype to make sure it was the best that he could, you know, imagine.

所以对我来说，真正让我眼界大开的，是我一直都有想象力。

And so to me, where it got bigger was I always had an imagination.

我想做大事。

I wanted to do big things.

但和史蒂夫·乔布斯待在一个房间里，那感觉完全不一样。

But it was nothing like, you know, being in a room with Steve Jobs.

因为他比我们任何人都想得更大，

Because he just thought bigger than any of us,

你知道的。

you know.

不。

No.

我能想象。

I can imagine.

所以从史蒂夫·乔布斯，我们转到蒂姆·库克。

So Steve Jobs, we go to Tim Cook.

现在，苹果又经历了一次重大的领导层交接，由约翰·特努斯接任。

Now, has just seen another meaningful transition in leadership to John Turnus.

特努斯现在接替蒂姆·库克。

Turnus taking over now for Tim Cook.

他显然要接替一个很难超越的人。

He has obviously some big shoes to fill.

我记得很清楚，当时我们团队都在讨论蒂姆·库克接替史蒂夫·乔布斯的事。

I think, you know, we I I remember very vividly, we as a team, we're all talking about Tim Cook taking over for Steve Jobs.

这怎么搞？

How's this going to work?

他能行吗？

Can he do it?

现在回头看，哇，这成绩单真漂亮。

I mean, you look back and you think, wow, what a track record.

他显然干得非常出色。

He obviously did a phenomenal job.

关于约翰·特纳斯，你觉得他应该把重点放在哪里？

In regard to John Turnus, what do you think his focus needs to be on?

是不是应该想办法搞出点大动静？

Is it more about trying to make some sort of a big splash in some way?

还是说，至少在短期内，他最好还是维持现状，让正在运转的继续运转？

Or is he better off, at least in the near term, just focusing on maintaining the status quo and let what's working keep on working?

这个问题问得真好。

That's a really good question.

你知道，苹果已经连续经历了两次成功的CEO交接。

You know, Apple has had two great CEO transitions in a row.

史蒂夫回归，干了大概十二年十五年，蒂姆又领导了十五年多，现在轮到约翰了。

You know, Steve coming back, you know, for a dozen year 15 Tim leading for another fifteen plus years, and now you got John.

我觉得，苹果之所以能成为一家伟大的公司，秘诀就在于他们从来不急于求成。

And and I think the lesson is what makes Apple a great company is they they never are really in a hurry.

有道理吧？

That makes sense?

完全同意。

Absolutely.

史蒂夫就是出了名地专注于做好工作。

Steve famously just did great work.

你知道吗，我们在高管会议上从来不看股价。

You know, we never looked at the stock price in the ET meeting.

我们甚至从不谈论它。

We never even talked about it.

我们经营公司不是为了赚钱。

We didn't manage a business to make money.

我们经营公司是为了创造出色的产品，把它们送到尽可能多的人手中，照顾好客户，而结果就是我们自然会盈利。

We managed a business to create amazing products, get them to as many people as could take care of customers, and the outcome would be we made, you know, profit.

史蒂夫就是那样领导的。

And Steve led that way.

蒂姆也是那样领导的。

Tim led that way.

你知道吗，我觉得史蒂夫和蒂姆都是非常独特的人。

You know, Tim and I think Steve and Tim were very unique people.

史蒂夫显然是个领导者和创新者。

Steve was clearly a leader and innovator.

蒂姆更像是个管理者和运营者，但他们两个都做出了非凡的成绩。

Tim was more of a manager and operator, but they both produced extraordinary results.

你知道吗，史蒂夫确实帮助打造了产品线。

You know, Steve really helped build out the product line.

蒂姆后来优化了每一款产品，并把它们推向了全世界。

Tim then optimized every one of those products, but took it to the world.

你知道吗，我是说，苹果现在在全球有近20亿用户在使用产品。

You know, I mean, Apple's got nearly 2,000,000,000 users now around the world using products.

我刚开始的时候，只有2500万。

When I started, it was 25,000,000.

你知道吗，我敢打赌，如果你看看蒂姆接任CEO的时候，用户数已经有好几亿了。

You know, and I bet if you look at when Tim took over as CEO, was in the hundreds of millions.

天哪。

Damn.

你知道，建立庞大的用户基础真的很难。

You know, the work it's really hard to build an installed customer base.

所以苹果拥有非常忠诚的20亿用户基础。

So Apple has this very loyal installed base of 2,000,000,000 customers.

但现实是，你不能通过让用户翻倍来让业务翻倍。

You know, the reality, you're not gonna double the business by doubling your customers.

世界上的人就那么多。

There's only so many people in the world.

所以对苹果来说，我觉得约翰，我猜他完全明白这一点。

So for Apple, and I think John, I assume he fully understands this.

关键是要确保用户对每一款产品都有很好的体验。

It's about making sure the customer has a great experience with every products.

而且你要通过大量的努力，定期改进这些产品，改进产品的每一个方面。

And you improve these products on a regular basis through a lot of hard work, and you're improving every aspect of the product.

芯片、硬件、软件体验、应用这些方面。

The chipset, the hardware, the software experience, the apps.

这些设备在某些方面很简单，但每个人用的东西其实非常复杂。

These are very they're simple devices in some ways, but they're very complex that everyone uses.

所以我觉得约翰不用着急。

And so I think John doesn't need to be in a hurry.

苹果应该在硬件和软件方面走在创新的前沿。

Apple should be at the forefront of innovation on the hardware side, the software side.

但我觉得他不用担心会出现什么神奇的新设备把iPhone取代掉。

But I don't think he has to worry about there being a a magic new device that's gonna take away the iPhone.

你知道，iPhone这种形态已经存在二十年了，而且它很便携。

You know, this iPhone has been the form factor for twenty years, and it's it's portable.

能放进口袋里。

It fits in your pocket.

屏幕尺寸也刚刚好。

It's got a really worthwhile sized screen.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且苹果已经有很多AI设备了。

And Apple already has a lot of AI devices.

你看，你的AirPods现在就是AI设备。

You know, your AirPods are an AI device now.

对。

Yep.

你的手表也是AI设备。

Your watch is an AI device.

大家都在讨论那些小别针之类的东西会是什么样子。

You know, everyone talks about what's these next little pins and things gonna be.

我个人倒是不担心，不会坐立不安地担心

Well, I'm personally not on pins and needles worried about

那个。

that.

不会。

No.

我也不会。

Nor nor am I.

而且苹果已经证明了这一点。

And then Apple is proven.

现在他们的理念是，重要的不是第一个做，而是做到最好。

And the mindset there now is, it's not about being first, it's about being best.

你说得对。

You said it.

我正想提这个。

I was just gonna bring that up.

你刚才说的那些让我想起，我们听过蒂姆·库克说过很多次。

That's everything that you were saying right there just reminded me of we've heard Tim Cook say this many times.

就是，重要的不是第一个做。

It's just it's not about being first.

重要的是做到最好。

It's about being best.

而且很明显，这很有效。

And clearly, that's working.

确实有效。

It's working.

而且苹果就是一个很好的例子，你知道，这很难。

And and Apple a perfect example is, you know, it was hard.

我的意思是，苹果在人工智能方面可以说一直落后。

I mean, Apple's arguably been behind on AI.

Siri是很久以前发布的。

Siri was announced a long time ago.

它一直没达到你对AI助手的预期标准。

It hasn't been at the standard that you'd expect from an AI agent.

我一直在用iOS 27上的新版Siri。

I've been using the new one with iOS 27.

好多了，好多了。

It's much, much better.

对。

Yep.

他们和Gemini或者ChatGPT的整合，不管背后是怎么做的，确实好多了。

With the integration they have with Gemini and or chat GPT, whatever they're doing behind the scenes, it's much better.

你懂吧？

You know?

但苹果做得对的地方，就是隐私这块。

But the thing Apple's done right on that is this privacy.

你知道，大家对隐私有特别大的担忧。

You know, there's this huge concern people have for privacy.

而苹果从来没有妥协过。

And Apple never sacrificed.

他们一直保护得很好。

They always protected that.

你知道，这是史蒂夫·史蒂夫开创的。

You know, Steve Steve started that.

你知道，当互联网刚出现时，他在2001年发布了一个叫“儿童安全”的产品，目的是保护孩子们上网时的安全。

You know, when the Internet came out, he created a product in 2001 he announced called Kids Safe, which was meant to keep kids safe when they're online.

就在上周，蒂姆在澳大利亚和总理讨论如何让iPhone对孩子们更安全。

And just last weeks, Tim was in Australia with the prime minister talking about how do you keep iPhones safe for kids.

所以隐私和安全是苹果的核心价值观。

So privacy, safety, these are kinda core values of Apple.

所以当我看到约翰时，我觉得他不仅要带领这家公司，和优秀的人一起工作，还要保护那些让苹果伟大的价值观。

And so when I I look at John, it's about leading that company with great people, but protecting the values that make Apple great.

那种“不同凡想”的能力。

The ability to think different.

对顾客的热爱，以及丰富他们的生活。

The love of the customer and enriching their lives.

从工厂到门店，硬件、软件深度整合，完全掌控顾客体验。

This deep, deep, deep integration of hardware, software from the factory to the store, owning that customer experience.

这些东西深深植根于苹果的核心，这就是为什么我们对苹果如此忠诚。

These things are deep in Apple's core, and that's why we are so loyal to Apple.

而且我觉得约翰显然已经在那里待了二十五年了。

And I think John has obviously been there twenty five years.

所以他已经完全融入了。

So he's drank the Kool Aid.

他吸收了那里的文化。

He's soaked up the culture.

他看起来就是个非常出色的领导者。

He seems like just an incredible leader.

我从和那里的人交谈中得知，这次过渡已经完全被接受了。

I I know from talking to people there that transition's been embraced fully.

蒂姆在这方面下了很大功夫。

Tim's worked hard at that.

我预计约翰会像蒂姆和史蒂夫那样，在公司留下自己的印记，而且他会长期担任那里的领导者。

I expect John will put a stamp on the company just like Tim did, just like Steve did, and that he'll be a leader there for a long time.