税务优化的退休规划与黄金的长期回报

选择正确的退休账户以及黄金的长期回报。

Choosing the right retirement account and the long term return of gold.

更多内容，尽在本周六的《富达全财》个人理财特辑。

That and more on this Saturday personal finance edition of Motley Full Money.

我是罗伯特·布罗坎普，本周我与财务规划师和注册会计师肖恩·穆兰尼对话，探讨为何一些投资者应优先选择税前传统退休账户，尽管罗斯账户有诸多优势。

I'm Robert Brokamp, and this week, I speak with financial planner and CPA Sean Mullaney about why some investors should favor pretax traditional retirement accounts despite all the benefits of Roth accounts.

但首先，让我们回顾一下上周的一些新闻。

But first, here are a few items from the news last week.

首先，我们来看富达投资全球宏观主管尤里安·蒂默的最新周度资产配置报告，他写道：‘至少目前，美国股市正以一种最理想的方式之一进行再平衡。’

First up, we turn to the latest weekly asset allocation review from Yurian Timmer, director of global macro at Fidelity Investments, who writes that, quote, at least for now, The US stock market is rebalancing in one of the best ways possible.

大型股似乎正在休整，而其他股票则开始上涨。

The mega cap seem to be taking a rest while the rest of the market breaks out.

自11月以来，标普七指数一直徘徊在区间内，而更广泛的市场则从狭窄走向广泛，交易价格高于50日移动平均线的股票比例从32%上升至如今的73%。

With the bag seven now stuck in a range since November, the broader market has gone from narrow to broad, from 32 of stocks trading above their fifty day moving average to now 73%.

以上为引述。

End of quote.

事实上，自万圣节以来，标普500指数上涨了0.5%，而纳斯达克100指数下跌了2%。

Indeed, since Halloween, the S and P five hundred has returned point 5%, and the Nasdaq one hundred has lost 2%.

与此同时，截至1月22日录制时，小盘股、价值股和国际股票分别上涨了10%、7%和5%。

Meanwhile, small caps, value stocks, and international stocks are up 10%, 7%, and 5% respectively as of this taping on the morning of January 22.

富达的蒂默将此称为‘看涨的广泛化’。

Fidelity's Timmer has labeled this, quote, a bullish broadening.

但这些回报与黄金的表现相比就微不足道了，这引出了我们本周的第二条新闻。

But those returns are nothing compared to what we've seen from gold, which brings us to our second news item of the week.

黄金股票ETF（代码GLD）去年上涨了64%，今年迄今已上涨12%。

The Spider Gold Shares ETF, ticker GLD, was up 64% last year and is up 12% so far this year.

上周正值黄金在1980年创下当时纪录价格850美元的周年纪念日，此后金价经历了持续二十多年的低迷。

This past week was the anniversary of gold hitting a then record price of $850 in 1980, which was then followed by a slump that lasted more than two decades.

如果你在1980年的高点买入并持有至今，以当前4800美元的价格计算，你的年化回报率将不足4%。

If you had bought at the 1980 peak and held to today's price of 4,800, your average annualized return would be less than 4%.

而如果你在1980年将850美元投资于标普500指数并持有至今，根据《Dollars and Data》博客上的标普500计算器显示，你的年化总回报将达到12%，投资价值将超过161,000美元。

Meanwhile, if you invested $850 in the S and P 500 back in 1980 and held to today, you would have earned a total average annualized return of 12%, and your investment would have been worth more than $161,000 according to the S and P 500 calculator on the Of Dollars and Data blog.

接下来是本周数字：96%。

And now, the number of the week, which is 96%.

根据基尔世界经济学研究所的一项最新研究，并经本周《华尔街日报》文章引用，关税的全部成本中，消费者和进口商承担了96%，而外国出口商仅通过降价承担了约4%。

That's how much of the cost of tariffs that has been absorbed by consumers and importers, according to a recent study from the Kiel Institute for the World Economy and highlighted in a Wall Street Journal article from this past week, foreign exporters absorbed only about 4% by lowering their prices.

尽管如此，美国通胀至今仍保持温和，哈佛大学的研究表明，关税实施六个月内，仅有约20%的成本转嫁到了消费者价格上，因为美国进口商和零售商吸收了大部分成本。

That said, US inflation has remained moderate so far, with Harvard Research indicating that only about 20% of the tariffs have fed into higher consumer prices within six months of implementation as US importers and retailers have absorbed much of the costs.

我们拭目以待，这种情况在2026年是否会持续。

We shall see if that continues in 2026.

接下来，当富达资金继续时，如何选择合适的退休账户。

Next up, choosing the right retirement account when motleyful money continues.

美国内战与重建时期是美国历史上的一个关键阶段。

The civil war and reconstruction was a pivotal era in American history.

这场战争旨在维护联邦统一并解放奴隶。

When a war was fought to save the union and to free the slaves.

而在战争结束后，重建国家的努力演变为争取所有美国人自由与正义的斗争。

And when the work to rebuild the nation after that war was over turned into a struggle to guarantee liberty and justice for all Americans.

我是特蕾西。

I'm Tracy.

我是里奇。

And I'm Rich.

我们邀请您和我们一起深入探讨美国历史上的这一关键时期。

And we want to invite you to join us as we take an in-depth look at this pivotal era in American history.

无论您在何处收听播客，都可以找到《内战与重建》。

Look for the civil war and reconstruction wherever you find your podcasts.

在开始为退休储蓄之前，您需要选择一种账户类型。

Before you start stocking away money for retirement, you'll need to pick an account type.

但请谨慎选择，因为它将影响您今天的税单，也可能影响几十年后的税务状况。

But choose wisely because it'll shape your tax bill today and potentially decades from now.

今天前来讨论如何选择合适账户的是财务规划师和注册会计师肖恩·穆兰尼，他经营着“财务税务达人”博客，并与科迪·加勒特合著了《为提前退休及退休后进行税务规划》一书。

Here to discuss how to choose the right account is financial planner and CPA Sean Mullaney, who writes the FI Tax Guy blog and is the coauthor, along with Cody Garrett, of the book tax planning to and through early retirement.

肖恩，欢迎来到《傻瓜理财》。

Sean, welcome to Motley Fold Money.

罗伯特，非常感谢你邀请我。

Robert, thanks so much for having me.

所以你的书名强调了提前退休。

So the title of your book highlights early retirement.

在你看来，什么样的人算是提前退休者？他们应该做些什么不同的事情吗？

So in your mind, what makes someone an early retiree, and what, if anything, should they be doing differently?

在我看来，提前退休者就是任何在有资格参加医疗保险之前退休的人。

To my mind, an early retiree is simply anyone who retires prior to being eligible to enroll in Medicare.

也就是说，通常是你满65岁那个月的第一天。

That is, generally speaking, the first of the month you turn age 65.

数据显示，大多数美国人都提前退休了，原因有很多。

And indications are a majority of Americans do early retire, and there's plenty of reasons for that.

有时是出于选择。

Sometimes it's choice.

有时是因为我们已经存够了钱，那为什么还要继续工作呢？

Sometimes it's we've got enough money saved up, so why are we still working?

有时候是因为被裁员，或者工作被淘汰了，或者其他各种原因。

And sometimes it's a layoff or my job got obsoleted or whatever it might be.

提前退休在税务规划方面通常具有优势。

Early retirement tends to have advantages when it comes to tax planning.

我这么说是因为提前退休提供了一个机会，可以将收入分散到更长的时间段内。

I say that because early retirement offers opportunity to spread out income over a longer window of time.

在当今的税务规划环境中，税法一直在提醒你，甚至可以说是大声疾呼：分散收入，分散收入，分散收入。

And in today's tax planning environment, the tax rules are telling you, they're yelling at you, spread out income, spread out income, spread out income.

我所说的这意味着，我们生活在一个标准扣除额非常高的时代。

So what I mean by that is we live in an era of a very high standard deduction.

我们生活在一个10%税率档和12%税率档的时代。

We live in an era of the 10% tax bracket and the 12% tax bracket.

一对已婚夫妇，尤其是六七十岁的人，其收入中可能有超过10万美元仅适用0%的税率档，这实际上就是标准扣除额、10%税率档和12%税率档的总和。

A married couple, especially in their sixties or seventies, could have well well over $100,000 of income subject to only a 0% tax bracket, which is essentially what the standard deduction is, the 10% bracket, and the 12% bracket.

因此，税法在大声呼吁：请将收入分摊到不同年份，这也是提前退休者享有税务优势的部分原因。

So that's sort of yelling and screaming, please spread out income over time, and that's part of the reason the early retiree has a tax advantage.

他或她必须在更长的时间内依靠收入生活，这通常从税务规划的角度来看是有利的。

He or she is gonna have to live off their income over a longer window of time, which generally speaking helps from a tax planning perspective.

如今我们经常听到关于罗斯账户好处的讨论，这种账户意味着现在要交更多税，但退休后的合格提款是免税的。

These days we read a lot about the benefits of Roth accounts, you know, which result in higher taxes today, but qualified withdrawals are tax free in retirement.

然而，在你的书中，你提出许多工作者其实应该首先考虑使用税前的传统雇主退休账户。

However, in your book, you make the case that many workers really should first turn to that pretax traditional work based retirement account.

为什么呢？

Why is that?

很简单，因为我们应该在缴税更少的时候缴税。

Well, for the simple reason that we ought to pay tax when we pay less tax.

事实证明，对于绝大多数美国人，我甚至认为对于大多数富裕的美国人来说，在工作并每天早起赚取应税收入时，你缴纳的税比退休后要多。

And it turns out that for the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans, I would contend even for the vast majority of affluent Americans, it turns out you pay more tax when you're working and you're getting up in the morning to generate taxable income than when you're retired.

退休。

Retired.

让我们仔细想想这一点。

And so let's think about that for a second.

你在工作中拥有罗斯401(k)账户或传统的可抵税401(k)账户。

You've got that Roth four zero one k or a traditional deductible four zero one k at work.

你可以以最高的边际税率对这个账户进行抵扣。

You get to deduct into that thing at your highest marginal rate.

可能是22%。

Maybe it's 22%.

可能是24%。

Maybe it's 24%.

可能是32%。

Maybe it's 32%.

因此，这相当于每投入一美元，立即获得22美分、24美分或32美分的税收优惠。

So that's an immediate tax benefit of 22¢ on the dollar, 24¢ on the dollar, 32¢ on the dollar.

好的。

Okay.

那么，当这些钱在你退休后重新计入收入时，情况会怎样呢？

Well, what's that gonna look like when it comes back into income later on in your retirement?

这笔钱会重新进入累进税率的档次进行计算。

Well, you have that run back up the progressive tax brackets.

特别是对于提前退休的人来说，六十多岁可能是个好时机，可以取出部分资金，在六十多岁时进行罗斯转换，或者就在六十多岁时靠这笔钱生活，其中一部分会被标准扣除额所覆盖。

Now, particularly for the early retiree, the sixties could be a great time to maybe get some of that money and either Roth convert it in your sixties or just live off of it in your sixties, and some of it will be sheltered by the standard deduction.

我称之为隐藏的罗斯个人退休账户。

I refer to that as the hidden Roth IRA.

我们从退休账户中取出了钱，并且没有缴纳联邦所得税。

We took money from a retirement account, and we didn't pay federal income tax.

那不是罗斯IRA吗？

Isn't that a Roth IRA?

嗯，在这个情况下不是。

Well, not in this case.

这就是我所说的隐藏式罗斯IRA。

That's what I refer to as a hidden Roth IRA.

它是一种潜伏在你401k计划内部的罗斯IRA。

It's a Roth IRA that lurks, that hides inside your four zero one k.

我认为许多美国人必须认真权衡，是否值得放弃眼前的税收抵扣。

And I think a lot of Americans have to think long and hard before sacrificing the upfront tax deduction.

不过，我必须说，通常将这笔税收节省投资于罗斯 IRA 或应税经纪账户是有利的。

Now I will say it's usually beneficial to invest that tax savings in a Roth IRA or a taxable brokerage.

但这确实是一个眼前的好处，而由于税收的累进性质，当您退出时，边际税率很可能低于您进入传统 401(k) 时所享受的税率。

But, boy, that is a upfront benefit, and it turns out that the progressive nature of taxation going back up through the brackets means that it's very likely that on the way out, the marginal rate on that is gonna be less than the rate that you enjoyed on the way into the traditional four zero one k.

罗伯特，我还是要说一点。

Now, Robert, I will say one thing though.

我并不反对罗斯 IRA，特别是对于那些有资格使用所谓‘后门罗斯 IRA’或‘超级后门罗斯 IRA’的观众。

I'm not anti Roth, particularly for those in the audience that have access to either the so called backdoor Roth IRA or the mega backdoor Roth IRA.

这些操作允许高收入者将资金存入罗斯账户。

So these are transactions that allow higher income earners to get money into a Roth account.

一旦我们已经最大化了传统 401(k) 的缴款——对许多雇员来说，通常是在工作中缴满——我非常倾向于选择这些方式。

I tend to really like those once we've maxed out our traditional four zero one k, say, at work for many workers.

我为什么这么说呢？

Why do I say that?

权衡取舍。

Trade offs.

传统401(k)，2026年是24,500美元。

Traditional four zero one k, that 24,500 in the year 2026.

这里的权衡在于，我要么在今天最高边际税率时扣除，要么把钱存入罗斯401(k)。

Well, the trade off there is I either deduct at my highest marginal rate today or I put it into the Roth four zero one k.

这种权衡的问题在于，我放弃了在今天最高边际税率时的税收减免。

The problem with that trade off is I'm giving up a tax deduction at my highest marginal rate today.

但如果是所谓的后门罗斯IRA或大额后门罗斯IRA，如果你通过工作单位的401(k)或其他计划获得这些选项，其权衡模式要好得多，因为不需要放弃税收减免。

But the backdoor, whether it's the so called backdoor Roth IRA or the mega backdoor Roth IRA, if you have that through your four zero one k or other plan at work, the trade off profile is so much better because there's no sacrifice tax deduction.

进入这些后门罗斯账户的资金，原本会进入应税经纪账户。

The money that goes into these backdoor Roths is money that would have otherwise gone into a taxable brokerage account.

在低收益环境下，投资应税经纪账户也不是糟糕的选择，尤其是有合格股息税率的情况下，但股息、利息和未来的资本利得仍需缴税。

Now that's not a terrible outcome to invest in a taxable brokerage account, particularly in a low yield world with qualified dividend income rates, but there's still tax on the dividends, interest, future capital gains on that.

而如果我们能利用其中一种或两种后门方式，那会怎样呢？

Versus if we can take advantage of one or both of these backdoor techniques, well, guess what?

我们把本应投入应税经纪账户的资金转移了，这些资金原本每年会产生10.99美元的股息，而现在它们被存放在我们的罗斯账户中，终身免税增长，甚至可能延续到配偶的余生，或者再延长十年，假设最终由成年子女继承。

We've moved money that would have gone into a taxable brokerage account, would have spit out a $10.99 DIV every year, and instead, it's parked inside our a Roth account growing tax free for the rest of our lives, potentially the rest of our spouse's lives, potentially ten more years, you know, assuming it goes to our adult child beneficiaries.

我当然不反对罗斯账户，但在积累阶段，你必须退一步思考其中的权衡：如果你把钱存在传统退休账户里，退休时真的会为大部分资金支付高额税款吗？

So I'm certainly not anti Roth, but I think you have to step back when you're in your accumulation years and think about the trade offs, and are you really gonna pay high taxes on most of that money in retirement if it's in a traditional retirement account.

你在书中展示了很好的例子，说明那些退休人士，尤其是65岁以上的人，因为他们享有更高的标准扣除额，以及那项由《大法案》新增的老年人扣除额，即使收入相当高，缴纳的税款却可能出人意料地低。

You had some great illustrations in the book of how folks who are retired, particularly over age 65, because they get the higher standard deduction, they got the new senior deduction from the one big beautiful bill, How you could have a surprisingly high amount of income and pay a surprisingly low tax rate.

比如，你举了某些夫妻年收入达到25万美元的具体案例。

Like, you have particular illustrations of couples who are making, say, $250,000.

对吧？

Right?

这在他们工作时，会使他们处于24%的税率区间。

And that puts them in, while they're working, say, the 24% tax bracket.

你向税前账户供款。

You contribute to that pretax account.

你享受的是24%的税收抵扣。

You're getting that deduction on 24%.

但在退休后，他们的实际税率只有大约12%到15%。

But then in retirement, their effective tax rate is, like, 12 to 15%.

所以在这种情况下，提前享受扣除、退休后再以较低税率缴税是完全合理的。

So, of course, in that situation, it makes total sense to take the deduction sooner and then pay taxes at that lower rate in retirement.

没错，罗伯特。

That's exactly right, Robert.

我们现在正处在一个黄金时代，既有高额的标准扣除额，又有老年人额外扣除。

And we live in sort of a golden age right now where you have the high standard deduction plus the senior deduction.

不过，公平地说，这政策是暂时的。

Now that is temporary, to be fair.

尽管我认为政治走向很可能会让某种形式的这项政策延续下去，但未来是否能延长还远非确定。

Although I think the politics are likely to play out that some form of that thing is likely, but certainly not guaranteed to be extended in the future.

但你看，我们有一些所谓的战术性应税罗斯转换案例，比如一对六七十岁的已婚夫妇。

But you see, you know, we have examples of what we call tactical taxable Roth conversions, where we have a married couple in their mid to late sixties.

他们在进行任何罗斯转换前的收入是101,000美元，而且主要是资本利得收入。

They have a $101,000 of income before any Roth conversion, and that's mostly capital gains income.

他们先从应税账户支出，然后增加40,700美元的罗斯转换。我在一次会议上做过这个演示，所以我说：‘哦，不。’

It's spending them on taxable accounts first, and then we add a $40,700 Roth conversion, and I've done this at a conference, you know, so I say, oh, no.

这对夫妇的调整后总收入为141,700美元。

This couple's got a 141,700 of adjusted gross income.

他们将要缴税。

They're gonna be taxed.

对吧？

Right?

我问过观众，心里想想，他们的税率会是多少？

And, you know, I I asked the audience, just mentally in your mind, picture what's their tax rate gonna be?

他们要交多少联邦所得税？

How much federal income tax are they gonna pay?

当然，令人惊讶的是，他们联邦所得税为零。这怎么可能？

And, of course, the surprise is they pay zero federal income Well, how can that be?

因为罗斯转换额基本被标准扣除额和老年人扣除额抵消了。

Well, the Roth conversion is essentially wiped out by the standard deduction and the senior deduction.

你通过安排财务结构，在应税账户中持有低收益股票，可能还有一个小额银行账户产生一些利息收入。

You structure your affairs so that you have low yield equities in the taxable account, maybe a small bank account generating some interest income.

但本质上，普通收入、罗斯转换、非合格股息、利息收入都可以控制在老年人扣除额和标准扣除额之内，从而抵消这部分收入的税款。

But essentially, the ordinary income, the Roth conversion, the non qualified dividends, the interest income can be kept at the senior deduction plus the standard deduction, so that wipes away the tax on that.

然后你可以在经纪账户中实现相当可观的资本收益。

And then you can have significant capital gains that you're essentially you're in your brokerage account.

你卖出这些经纪账户的共同基金或ETF并触发资本利得，但请记住我们有0%的长期资本利得税档。

You sell those brokerage account mutual funds or ETFs and trigger capital gains, but recall we have the 0% long term capital gains tax bracket.

我相信对于2026年的已婚夫妇来说，这个应税收入额度会提高到98,900美元。

I believe for a married couple in the year 2026, that thing goes up to 98,900 of taxable income.

这是在我们计入老年人扣除额之后的情况。

So that's after we put in the senior deduction.

如果我们年满65岁或以上且已婚，那就是12,000美元。

If we're 65 or older, we're married, that's $12,000.

如果我们今年双方都年满65岁或以上，那就太棒了，再加上高额的标准扣除额。

If we're both 65 or older this year, that's fantastic, plus the high standard deduction.

所以这回到我的观点：退休是一个时期，如果我们能在退休初期合理规划提款和罗斯转换策略，可能只需缴纳很低的税。

So that goes back to my point that retirement is a time that if we structure our drawdown and our Roth conversion strategy, in the first part of our retirement, we might be paying very low taxes.

然后，是的，随着退休后期我们逐渐花光经纪账户的资金，我们就会开始动用传统的IRA账户。

And then, yes, maybe later on in retirement as we spend down those brokerage accounts, we then get into our traditional IRA.

最终我们会触及最低取款要求（RMD）。

We eventually get to RMDs.

不过顺便说一句，如果你出生于1960年或之后，RMD实际上要到晚年较晚的时候才开始。

Although, by the way, if you're born in 1960 or later, that RMD doesn't start till August later in life anyway.

所以，是的，罗伯特，市场上有太多好的规划机会，我认为我们必须退一步说：基于当前的规则、政客的激励机制以及最近的历史，对退休后税收的恐惧是没有根据的。

So, yeah, Robert, there are so many good little planning opportunities out there, and I think we have to step back and say, fear of taxation and retirement is not justified in today's environment based on the rules, based on the incentives of the politicians, based on what the recent history.

在书中，我列了一个小表格，展示了一连串针对退休人员的减税政策，尽管许多评论员都说退休人员的税负会增加。

In the book, have a little table, and it goes through a decade's worth of tax cut after tax cut after tax cut for retirees even though many commentators are saying, you know, they're gonna be increasing taxes on retirees.

这些预测的问题在于，未来不断发生，而那些加税措施从未实现，真正发生的是接连不断的退休人员减税。

The problem with those predictions is the future keeps happening and those tax increases don't materialize, and what has materialized are tax cuts after tax cuts for retirees.

现在我并不是在断言这种情况会持续下去，我的意思是，确实存在一些微小的、渐进的增税风险，我也绝不会赌退休人员的减税会一直持续。

Now I'm not here to say that that's gonna continue, meaning I do think there's some risk that may to be small incremental minor tax increases, and and I'm certainly not gonna bet on continued tax cuts on retirees.

但我认为，历史、政治家的动机以及当前的税率共同传递出这样一个信息：未来对退休人员的征税可能会相对温和。

But I think the history, the politicians' motivations, today's rates sort of come out with this message of taxation in the future for retirees is likely to be relatively modest.

这当然不是有保障的。

That's certainly not guaranteed.

你看。

And look.

我并不是说你不应该考虑一些策略，比如进行较小的罗斯转换，或者在工作期间通过后门方式进行罗斯转换。

I'm not here to say you shouldn't think about some tactics like some smaller Roth conversions, maybe doing the backdoor Roth while you're working.

你可以采取不同的措施来缓解这种风险，但我只是不认为在当前环境和未来展望下，对税收和退休的担忧有那么大的合理性。

There are different things you can do to help mitigate that risk, but I just don't think that fear of taxation and retirement is that justified in today's environment and looking into the future.

你提到了一些人们常用来作为拥有更多罗斯资产理由的几点。

You highlighted a couple of things that people often will bring up as a reason to have more Roth assets.

一个是RMD，即最低要求分配。

One is RMDs, required minimum distributions.

另一个是IRMA，即与收入相关的医疗保险月度调整额。

The other is IRMA, income related monthly adjustment amount for Medicare.

但正如你在书中指出的，当你实际计算这些金额占整体投资组合和提款的百分比时，它们更可能只是令人烦恼，而非真正的问题。

But as you point out at the book, when you actually calculate those amounts as a percentage of the overall portfolio and the withdrawal, they're more probably more of a nuisance than anything else.

是的。

Yes.

那么，我们来谈谈IRMA吧。

So, Irma, let's talk about that one.

这是指医疗保险B部分和D部分保费的增加，基于你前两年的收入。

That is an increase in Medicare Part b and Part d premiums, and it's based on your income from the two years previous.

现在，当你仔细计算时，有两点会逐渐显现。

Now when you run the numbers, two things sort of emerge.

第一，IRMA主要针对富裕的单身人士和寡妇征税。

One is Irma tends to be a tax on affluent singles and widows.

所以，当你查看IRMA的起征点时，对于夫妻来说是超过20万美元的收入。

So if you look at when Irma kicks in, it's over $200,000 of income for couple.

即使是非常富裕的已婚夫妇，在退休后不再工作时，通常也很难在报税单上申报20万美元或更多的收入。

Even very affluent married couples, when they're no longer working, often have a difficult time reporting 200,000 or more of income on a tax return in retirement.

这部分是因为资本利得交易中的成本基础回收。

That's partly because of basis recovery with capital gains transactions.

顺便说一下，退休后，我们的支出往往会自然地限制我们的应税收入，而在积累阶段则不会这样。

By the way, retirement, our spending tends to form a natural ceiling on our taxable income in a way it did not during our accumulation years.

这是一个重要的见解。

That's an important insight.

因此，当我们已婚时，IRMAA的影响微乎其微。

So when we're married, Irma tends to barely bite.

但我要说，当我们变成单身时，IRMAA就开始产生影响了。

Now I will say Irma starts biting when we become single.

无论是单身进入退休，还是成为寡妇，这时IRMAA就会产生影响。

Either we're single going into retirement or become a widow, and that's when Irma can bite.

但正如你所说，罗伯特，它更多时候只是一种麻烦。

But like you were saying, Robert, it tends to be more of a nuisance.

它主要针对富裕的单身退休人员征税。

It tends to be a tax on affluent single retirees.

这只是它的运作方式。

Just the way it functions.

这就是它的具体划分方式。

That's just how it it breaks down.

但即便如此，Irma 通常也表明，你的财务生活总体上是成功的，只是在人生后期可能有一些税务低效，而那时这些影响对你已经不大了。

But even then, Irma tends to be an indication that things, generally speaking, worked out well in your financial life, and perhaps you had some tax inefficiencies in the later part of your life when they don't impact you as much.

这本书的一个教训是，当我们考虑税收时，应该思考它们在什么时候影响最大。

This is one of the lessons of the book is that when we think about taxes, we should think about when are they the most impactful.

我认为，当你40岁、有两个孩子在家、配偶也在家，但尚未积累足够资产实现财务独立时，税收的影响是最显著的。

I would argue that the most impactful when you're 40 years old, you got two kids at home, you got a spouse at home, and you haven't built up sufficient assets to be financially independent or whatever you wanna call it.

那时缴税可真不妙，因为你得养活两张嘴，还有配偶，而且还没积累起那么多财富；即使是退休初期，也不是缴税的好时机，因为你可能还要支撑三十四十年的退休生活。

Boy, paying taxes then isn't that great because you got two mouths to feed, you have a spouse, you haven't built up all this financial wealth, and even early retirement, the beginning of retirement isn't the greatest time to pay taxes either because, look, you might have thirty or forty years of retirement you have to fund.

在那个时候向国税局交钱并不理想，因为那笔钱本可以用来投资，为你的财务未来做准备。

Paying some money to Uncle Sam at that point isn't that great because now, you know, that's money that could have been invested for your financial future.

人们担心回报顺序风险，虽然我本人不太在意，但也不能完全忽视。

You know, to the extent people worry about sequence of returns risks, not something I worry a whole lot about, but it's not a nothing concern.

在退休初期就缴税并不是一个好做法。

Paying taxes up front in the early part of retirement is not a great thing to do.

所以，如果我们退休后期因为过度使用传统退休账户而面临IRMAA，那其实相当于选了一个非常好的缴税时机，因为那时对你的财务未来影响已经不大了。

So if we're gonna have, say, IRMAA in the later years of our retirement because we did traditional retirement accounts a little too much, say, well, you've essentially picked a really good time to pay because at that point, it can't be as impactful to your financial future.

在那个阶段，这些低效性有时我会称之为‘垃圾时间的达阵’。

At that point, these inefficiencies sometimes I refer to these inefficiencies as garbage time touchdowns.

对吧？

Right?

你使用了这些传统退休账户。

You use these traditional retirement accounts.

你在工作时赢了国税局。

You won against the IRS when you were working.

你在退休初期就花光了应税经纪账户。

You then spent down taxable brokerage accounts early in the first part of retirement.

你赢了国税局。

You won against the IRS.

然后，在人生的后期，你可能会遇到这些在几十年战胜国税局之后出现的低效问题。

And then maybe later in life, you have these inefficiencies that come after decades of defeating the IRS.

也许你选择了一个相当不错的时机来缴税，因为那时有两种情况之一是成立的。

Maybe what you've done is you've picked a pretty good time to pay taxes because at that point one of two things is true.

如果你要支付IRMA，说明你财务状况优渥，在财务成功方面远超大多数美国人。

If you're paying IRMA, you're financially affluent, you're well above most Americans in terms of financial success.

因此，你在已经比同龄群体和全体美国人更富裕的时候，支付了附加费或收入税方面的少量额外税款。

So you're paying the surcharge or maybe a little incremental tax on the income tax side at a time where you're already wealthier than most of your cohorts in that age group and overall Americans.

所以你已经做得非常好了，只是存在一些税务低效问题。

So you've done really well, and you have a few tax inefficiencies.

这是大多数美国人会欣然接受的结果。

That's an outcome most Americans would gladly sign up for.

这些低效问题是在几十年战胜国税局之后才出现的。

And these inefficiencies come after decades of defeating the IRS.

我是个几乎一生都是纽约喷气机队球迷的人，见过不少垃圾时间的达阵得分。

I am a lifelong almost lifelong New York Jets fan, and I've seen plenty of garbage time touchdowns.

对方得分很多，但这些最终并不会决定最终结果，我们真正追求的是财务成功。

There's scores by the other side that ultimately are not determinative of the ultimate outcome, and that's what we're looking for is financial success.

尽管我们努力降低税收，这确实是一个重要目标，但最终的首要目标是财务成功。

As much as we're trying to reduce taxes, that's an important priority, but the ultimate priority is financial success.

我亲眼见过我的喷气机队多次达阵，因此对这个话题相当了解。

And I've seen my Jets score too many touchdowns to not be pretty knowledgeable about this subject.

所以我认为，如果你使用这些传统的退休账户来积累退休储蓄，或许再建立一些应税经纪账户，或者因为已经抵扣过而建立后门罗斯IRA——你在工作期间节省了钱并进行了投资。

And so I think what happens is if you use these traditional retirement accounts to build up retirement savings, maybe build up some taxable brokerage accounts, you know, maybe build up backdoor Roth IRAs because you deducted, you save money, you invested it during your working years.

好的。

Alright.

也许到了比赛末段，当我们已经财务充裕时，RMDs却按32%的税率被提取，而我们根本没精力去花这笔钱，或者我们已经进入长期护理阶段——这是另一个话题了。

Maybe at the end of the game, you know, we have some RMDs that go out at the 32% when we're already affluent and we don't have the energy to be spending that money anyway, or maybe we're in long term care, whole other conversation.

很多时候，这些长期护理费用可以作为医疗费用抵扣，从而几乎抵消掉我们大部分的应税收入。

A lot of times, a lot of these long term care expenses can be subject to it could be medical deductions, and then we can essentially deduct away most of our taxable income.

因此，传统IRA实际上是一种高效的使用方式，虽然不是理想用途，但确实高效。

So it's actually an efficient use for a traditional IRA, not a desired use, but an efficient use.

所以，是的，这就是我思考这个问题时的方法。

So, yeah, that's sort of my approach when I think about this.

不是说罗斯转换不能发挥良好作用或没有好处，但很少需要进行罗斯转换。

Not that Roth conversions can't play a good role, can't be beneficial, but rarely are the Roth conversions needed.

这真是一场非常棒的对话。

Well, this has been a great conversation.

肖恩，非常感谢你加入我们。

Sean, thanks so much for joining us.

罗伯特，非常感谢你邀请我。

Robert, thanks so much for having me.

是时候动手干了，伙计们。

It's time to get it done, fools.

本周，我鼓励你们做一件我每年一月都鼓励每个人去做的事：思考未来三到五年内你需要从投资组合中获取的资金，并通过将这些资金转为现金或债券来保护它们。

And this week, I encourage you to do something that I encourage everyone to do every January, and that is to think about what you'll need from your portfolio in the next three to five years and protect that money by moving it to cash or bonds.

平均而言，股市每四年就会下跌20%或更多，而在本世纪头十年，它曾两次下跌超过50%。

On average, the stock market drops 20% or more every four years, and in the first decade of the century, it dropped more than 50% twice.

自1928年以来，股票市场在83%的三年持有期内实现盈利，在88%的五年持有期内盈利，在94%的十年持有期内盈利。

Since 1928, the stock market has been profitable over 83% of three year holding periods, 88 of five year holding periods, and 94% of ten year periods.

因此，我们认为保护未来三到五年内需要使用的资金是一个合理的目标，但你应始终根据自身的风险承受能力和具体情况做出调整。

So we think protecting money you need the next three to five years is a reasonable goal, but you should always adjust for your own risk tolerance and circumstances.

所以，如果你计划近期进行大额消费，比如送孩子上高中或大学，或者为退休收入建立缓冲，现在就是将这些资金从股票转移到高收益现金、存单、国库券或短期债券的好时机。

So if you plan to make a big purchase soon or maybe send to high school or to college or create or restuff your retirement income cushion, now is a good time to move that money from stocks to higher yielding cash, CDs, treasury bills, or short term bonds.

要寻找高收益的银行服务，请访问另一个The Motley Fool Money平台，不是播客，而是The Motley Fool网站，该网站会对信用卡、房贷、经纪商和银行进行评级和评测。

To find higher yielding banking options, visit the other Motley Fool Money, not the podcast, but the Motley Fool website that rates and reviews credit cards, mortgages, brokers, and banks.

好了，朋友们，本期节目就到这里。

And that, my friends, is the show.

感谢收听，也一如既往地感谢巴特·香农，他是本集的魔术师兼音频工程师。

Thanks for listening, and thanks as always to Bart Shannon, who is a magician and the engineer for this episode.

和往常一样，节目中的嘉宾可能对其讨论的股票持有利益，而The Motley Fool也可能对相关股票有正式的买入或卖出建议。

As always, people on the program may have interests in the stocks they talk about, and The Motley Fold may have formal recommendations for or against.

因此，不要仅凭你听到的内容就买卖股票。

So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear.

所有个人理财内容均遵循富达编辑标准，且未经广告商批准。

All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers.

广告为赞助内容，仅用于信息目的。

Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for the informational purposes only.

要查看我们的完整广告披露，请参阅我们的节目备注。

To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes.

我是罗伯特·布鲁坎普。

I'm Robert Brukamp.

大家保持联系。

Hool on, everybody.