#4 - 产品猎人 Ryan Hoover 如何从零打造 2000 万美元社区

还有一些其他喜欢Medium的人也来了。

There was also some other people that liked Medium.

好的。

Okay.

所以是混合的，我记得大概有十五到二十个人到场，有博主也有写作者。

So it was a combination, and I think about 15, 20 people showed up, and it was a combination of bloggers and writers.

大家有一些共同点，就是都在Medium上写一些有趣的东西，主要是科技或者其他主题。

So there was some commonality around, okay, here are a bunch of people who are writing on Medium about interesting things, mostly around tech or other subjects.

所以我觉得，这对我后来能见到Jason和Ev是有帮助的。

So that was, I think, helpful in getting that meeting with Jason and with Ev.

但说到底，他们那时候还处于早期阶段。

But ultimately, they were early on.

他们只招设计师和工程师。

They only hired designers and engineers.

他们采用的是合弄制那种组织架构，最后我们很客气地结束了，分手时说：“Ryan，我们不知道你在这里能做什么。”

They had a holacracy kind of org structure, and we sort of ended and parted with, "I don't know what you do here, Ryan," respectfully.

而且，他当时说得也有点对，就像你一样。

And again, he was kind of right, kind of like you.

埃夫说得对。

Ev was right.

我也不太确定自己当时会做什么。

I don't know exactly what I would've done.

也许我会挺合适的。

Maybe I would've been a good fit.

但他们的组织结构，没有明确的职位要求。

But the way they were structured, there wasn't a clear job req.

实际上，我申请的那个职位根本没有招聘需求。

There actually was no job req for what I was trying to apply for.

所以你就把Product Hunt当作一个实验来做。

And so you did Product Hunt as an experiment.

你当时还做过其他没人听说过的实验吗？因为Product Hunt是那个成功并引起所有关注的。

Did you do any other experiments at the time that nobody's ever heard of because Product Hunt's the one that takes off and gets all the attention?

我写博客写得多的时候，也做了几个小实验。

Did a couple of small, tiny things as I was writing and blogging a bunch.

其中一个我想试试的是，怎么让更多人分享我写的东西。

One thing that I wanted to experiment with was how do I get more people to share my writing?

说白了，就是怎么吸引更多读者。

How do I essentially get more readers?

我注意到，推特上有些人会从博客文章里摘一段话，或者引用一两句，然后发到推特上。

And one thing I noticed is there's some people on Twitter who would take a snippet and quote a sentence or so from a blog post and then share it on Twitter.

所以我就想，如果我能在我自己的博客里——当时用的是Tumblr——而Tumblr上基本上可以加JavaScript之类的功能。

And so I actually thought, okay, what if I could in my blog, which was on Tumblr, but on Tumblr, you have access to basically you can add JavaScript and other things.

我其实不是工程师，所以我就自己瞎折腾，搞了个简单的JavaScript小工具，让作者和博主可以选中并高亮自己文章里的特定文字。

I'm not even an engineer, so I hacked my way together to create a simple little JavaScript utility to be able to allow authors and bloggers to select and highlight specific text in their blog posts.

就像在说："这是我的金句。"

It's like, "This is my money line."

这是我的金句。

This is my money line.

那就分享吧。

Go ahead and share.

点一下，就会打开一个带引用的推文窗口，还会@我，@rrhoover，这就像个小项目。

Go and click it, and it opens up a tweet intent with the quote filled and tags me, @rrhoover, on Twitter, and it was like a little side project.

我根本没想过要把它做成什么大事。

I had no ambitions of turning it into anything.

而且从代码角度看，它也不是很正规。

Also, from a code base, it wasn't real.

它只是为我个人做的，别人其实用不了，但我想，好吧，让我琢磨琢磨这个想法，看看能搞出什么名堂。

It was just kind of for me, so no one else really could use it, but I was like, "Okay, let me tinker with this idea and see where I get."

所以你是个自己痒自己挠的人，我遇到过一个人，我通常第一个问题就是，你是怎么赚到第一个一百万的？

So you were like a scratch-your-own-itch kind of guy, which is I've had somebody who came on who was like, the first question I typically ask is, "So how'd you make your first million?"

他说，我做了个肥皂剧博客。

And he was like, "I made a soap opera blog."

好的。

Okay.

我从来没看过肥皂剧。

"I've never seen a soap opera."

但我做了一个肥皂剧网站，后来成了最火的肥皂剧网站，我把它卖了，拿到了900万美元现金。

But I made a soap opera website that became the most popular soap opera website, and I sold it for $9 million in cash.

然后就是——

And it's like-

所以有些人会说，"哪里有机会我就去哪里"，而你则是，"我会做我好奇、我想要的东西"，

So some people are like, "I go where the opportunity is," and you're like, "I build things I'm curious about, I want,"

"我也不知道它们会不会变成公司，多半不会。"

"And I don't know if they're going to be companies or not, most likely not."

你怎么看这种思路？

What do you think about that approach?

因为我相信你见过两种类型的创始人。

Because I'm sure you see founders that are in both camps.

你是怎么想的？

How do you think about that?

我很久以前甚至写过一篇关于这个的博客文章。

I even wrote a blog post about this a long time ago.

创业没有唯一正确的方式，就是说，确实有一些最佳实践和指南之类的，但你几乎可以为任何东西找到反例，包括那种“解决自己的痛点”的建议，或者拿我父亲举例，我的父母，他们一直是创业者，我父亲几乎一辈子都是。

There's no right way to start a startup, in the sense that, yes, there are kind of best practices and guides and everything, but you can find counter examples to basically everything, including the scratch-your-own-itch sort of advice, or my father, for example, my parents, they've been entrepreneurs, well, my dad pretty much his entire life almost.

他们经营一家企业很长时间了，从我大概十六七岁的时候就开始了。

And they've been operating a business for a long time, since I was, I think, 16, 17 years old.

他们经营的是废物管理领域的企业。

They've operated this business in the waste management space.

我父亲对废物管理其实没什么特别的兴趣，我觉得很多在这个行业里的人也不一定对废物有热情。

My father really doesn't have any particular interest in waste management, and I think a lot of people who are in the industry aren't passionate about waste necessarily.

但他是个创业者，通过发现问题或需求并去满足它，取得了很大的成功。

But he's an entrepreneur that has had a lot of success just finding a problem or finding a need and filling it.

他小时候常跟我说的一句话就是：“找到需求，满足它。”

That's a saying that he would tell me when I was a kid, is, "Find a need and fill it."

他从解决问题和建立企业的过程中获得很多动力和兴奋感，而不是像“解决自己的痛点”那样。

And he gets a lot of motivation, excitement around the process of solving problems and building businesses, less so scratching his own itch, for example.

如果你的父母是企业家，你有没有想过“我要当企业家”，还是你去Playhaven上班的时候，心里想的是“我要走职业路线”？

And if your parents are entrepreneurs, did you think, "I'm going to be an entrepreneur," or you went and got a job at Playhaven, were you like, "I'm going to do the career thing.

“我要先当员工，然后当经理，也许有一天当高管？”

I'm going to be an employee, then I'm going to become a manager, and then an executive maybe someday?"

你当时是怎么想的？

What were you thinking?

其实我小时候就喜欢捣鼓一些创业的事情，比如在eBay上买卖东西，改装Xbox，干些类似的事。

Even when I was a kid, I tinkered with entrepreneurial things, like buying and selling on eBay and modding Xboxes and doing stuff like that.

我很喜欢琢磨怎么才能不按小时拿工资。

I love the idea of, how do I avoid getting paid by the hour?

怎么才能靠我的影响力或者产出赚钱？

How do I find a way to make money for my impact or my output?

我一直挺讨厌按小时计酬的，因为不管干得好还是干得差，拿的钱都一样，这对我来说从来没什么激励作用。

And I always kind of hated getting paid by the hour because it's always this thing where you could work really, really well or terribly, and you get paid the same amount, and that was just never super motivating for me.

所以我一直喜欢捣鼓创业的事，但2010年我去硅谷的时候，并不是抱着“我要开公司，必须开公司”的想法去的。

So I'd always tinkered with entrepreneurial things, but I didn't move to Silicon Valley in 2010 and say, "I'm going to start a company, and I must start a company."

这并非我强求自己的事情，到了2013年的Product Hunt，它的形成非常自然。

It wasn't something that I required of myself, and fast-forward to Product Hunt in 2013, that was very organic in how it formed.

它本来不打算成为一家公司。

It wasn't supposed to be a company.

所以再说一次，我不认为有什么正确的方法，但我已经……

So again, I don't think there's a right way of approaching it, but I've...

我不知道，我很乐意创办公司。

I don't know, I'm happy starting companies.

我喜欢这种自主性，以及能够因为我的付出而获得回报，无论是金钱上的还是其他方面的，因为创业公司里不仅仅是钱，还有更多的东西，而不仅仅是我的时间。

I enjoy the autonomy and having the ability to get rewarded, both monetarily or in other ways, because there's more than just money in startups, for more than just my time.

对，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

我知道你说过没有正确的方法。

And I know that you said there's no right way to do it.

但确实有一些错误的方法。

There are some wrong ways to do it.

一般来说，做事情通常有更多错误的方式，而不是……

In general, there's actually typically more wrong ways to do something than...

最好专注于那些错误的方式，然后把它们排除掉——

It's better to focus on those and just eliminate those as possibilities-

……而不是试图说：“哦，这是正确的方式，因为某某人就是这么做的。”

... than try to say, "Oh, this is the right way to do it because X person did it that way."

因为你会发现另一个人用了不同的方式。

Because you'll find another person did it a different way.

成功通常有很多很多种样子。

Success typically has many, many flavors.

失败基本上归结为同样的那几种。

Failure sort of boils down to the same five.

这是我目前看到的。

That's what I've seen so far.

实际上，这通常就是打造很多好产品的方法。

Actually, that's how you build usually a lot of good products.

正确的产品是什么，比如正确的用户体验、正确的东西，其实很不明确，但确实有一些明显的坑，或者一些明显应该避免的事情。

It's very unclear what the right product is, like the right UX, the right thing, but there's some obvious pitfalls or some obvious things that you should avoid.

所以某种程度上，当我们开发新功能时，我们会想很多，比如“好吧，我们不会做XYZ，因为我们很有信心这些不是正确的解决方案，但我们不确定这些，不过它们有潜力。”

And so in some ways, like when we build new features, we think a lot about, "Okay, we're not going to do XYZ because we have high confidence that these are going to be not the right solution, but we don't know about these, but they have potential."

“所以我们要去探索它们，并快速弄清楚它们是否真的有效。”

"So we're going to explore them and figure out quickly, do they actually work?"

这其实很像你在创业和做项目时做的事情，就是快速迭代和测试。

Which is a lot of what you've done at, with all of your entrepreneurial and projects you've worked on, is quick iterations and testing.

对，有时候太快了。

Yeah, sometimes too quick.

好，那你发布了Product Hunt。

So okay, so you launch Product Hunt.

我们从头说起，你是怎么从零用户做到30个用户的？

Let's take it from, how'd you get from zero users to 30?

你说那是你在湾区认识的人——

You said that was people you knew in the Bay Area-

……那些你觉得可能会喜欢这个的人。

... who you thought might like this.

从30到300，再到3000，跟我们说说你是怎么实现这些跨越的，因为我觉得，作为一个创业者，我六年前搬到了硅谷，在那之前，我都是从远处阅读和消化这些信息的。

30 to kind of, let's take it to 300, and 3,000, and tell us how you made those jumps, because I think, as an entrepreneur, I moved to Silicon Valley six years ago, and before that, I was sort of reading and digesting everything from afar.

我当时住在澳大利亚，也就是地球的另一端。

I was living in Australia, so the other side of the Earth.

我记得当时我觉得最不清楚的部分是："好吧，我知道你怎么想出点子、怎么起步、怎么找联合创始人，然后去做，我也知道增长是什么样子的，"但中间那段呢？你到底是怎么——我怎么才能得到我的前100个用户，前1000个用户？

And I remember the part that I felt there was the least clarity on was like, "Okay, I know how you come up with ideas and get it started, find co-founders, and go do that, and then I know what growing looks like," but what about that in-between part when, how the hell do you just-- How do I get my first 100 people, my first 1,000 people?

那你为Product Hunt是怎么做的呢？

So how did you go about doing that for Product Hunt?

所以，你一开始做的事情和后来做的事情是不一样的。

So the things you do in the beginning are different than things you do later on.

一开始，很多都是关于怎么得到前100个、前1000个、前10000个用户，等等。

So in the beginning, a lot of it's just like, how do you get first 100, 1,000, 10,000, and so on.

所以某些策略在初期效果非常好，但后来当然就收益递减了。

So certain strategies worked really well in the beginning, and then they, of course, had diminishing returns.

我们得找新的策略。

We had to find new strategies.

一开始靠的是朋友。

So in the beginning, it was friends.

对，就二三十个人，都是朋友。

Okay, 20, 30 people, friends.

最初几百个订阅者主要来自推特。

First few hundred subscribers were through Twitter, primarily.

其实是推特和Quibb。

Twitter and Quibb, actually.

Quibb是一个创业者社区，大家主要分享在网上找到的文章。

Quibb was an entrepreneurial community where people shared mostly articles that they found on the internet.

所以通过这两个渠道，我就发推文，放到Quibb上，就吸引了几百人订阅。

And so through those two channels, I just tweeted it out, put it on Quibb, got a couple hundred people subscribed.

这算是第一个小里程碑吧。

So that's sort of one tiny milestone.

然后几周后，开始有人自发分享，那200个订阅者就变成了四五百、六七百。

And then fast-forward some weeks later, there's some organic growth of people sharing it, and that 200 subscribers turns into 4, 5, 600.

然后我们意识到，邮件列表只是个起点。

And then we got to the point where, well, the email list was just the starting point.

所以我们知道要建一个网站，让人们可以互动、协作，贡献更多内容。

So we knew that we wanted to build a website where people could interact and collaborate and have more contributions.

建了网站之后，我们就能用其他方式让受众自己增长。

Building the website then enabled us to unlock other ways of kind of growing the audience themselves.

我们做了很多事情。

And so there's a bunch of things we did.

很多都是靠口碑，我知道，当你创办新公司时，别人会问“你怎么吸引用户？”

A lot of it was word of mouth, which I know is, when you're building a new company, when you ask like, "How are you going to get users?"

“靠口碑。”

"Word of mouth."

这答案很糟糕，但如果真是这样，那就太好了。

Terrible answer, but great when it is the answer.

如果真是这样那当然好，但别指望它，因为很可能不会发生。

It's great when it's the answer, but don't rely on it, because it's probably not going to happen.

但我们确实有很多口碑传播，因为——

But we did certainly have a lot of word of mouth because-

那口碑是怎么来的？

And what was the word of mouth?

对，为什么大家会谈论这个？

Yeah, why were people talking about this?

大家谈论它，是因为我觉得它填补了市场的一个空白。在互联网和科技圈，有推特、有各种子版块、有博客和媒体，但缺少一个能让整个科技界聚在一起，对新产品和新技术兴奋讨论的社区或地方。

They were talking about it because I think it filled a hole in the market in the sense that on the internet, in the technology world, you had Twitter, and you had subreddits, and you had blogs and publications, but there wasn't a sort of community or a place for all the tech world to come together and kind of geek out about the new products and the new things that are happening in technology.

尤其是当博客和媒体纷纷关闭评论区的时候。

Increasingly so as blogs and publications kind of killed their comment section.

评论区从来都不是他们业务的核心。

It's never been a core part of their business.

所以我觉得，一部分原因是市场空白被我们填补了，再加上这本身是个社区型产品，人们进来后，自然想跟朋友分享、讨论，所以口碑就传开了。

And so I think part of it was a combination of There's a sort of hole in the market that we sort of filled, and combined with the fact that also it was a community-based product, so when people came on, it's something that they wanted to talk about and wanted to involve their friends and so on.

我记得有一件事，就是感觉你在一点一点地搭建这家公司，我这么说是因为我记得每当有人加入或者做了什么，你都会亲自在推特上联系他们。

One of the things I remember was that I felt like you were building this company brick by brick, and the reason I say that is I remember somebody would join or do something, and you would personally reach out on Twitter.

亲自给他们一些公开的、小小的表扬，但并不是那种千篇一律的。

Personally give them a little public kind of love, but it wasn't generic.

就像是你会和他们开始一段对话，或者说一些明显是你自己写的话。

It was like you'd start a conversation with them, or you would say something that does clearly, you wrote it.

这不是机器人。

This is not a bot.

你会给加入的人发邮件，问他们一些问题，比如——

You would send emails to people who join, and you would ask them questions like-

……“你是怎么听说我们的？”

... "How'd you hear about it?"

或者，“你觉得这个怎么样？”

Or, "What do you think of this?

“这是我们的一些想法。”

Here's what we're thinking of it."

我刚翻出来，这是2013年11月22号的。

I just pulled up, this is November 22, 2013.

就在我邮箱里。

This is in my email.

我不知道你发的第一封邮件是什么，但这是第二封。

I don't know what the first email you sent was, but this is the second.

你当时说：“嘿，肖恩，我的Product Hunt链接小玩意儿MVP，”你那时候还在用linkydink——

So you said, "Hey, Sean, my Product Hunt linkydink MVP," you were using linkydink at the time-

对。

Yes

……“已经显示出一些起色了。”

... "is showing signs of traction.

我除了自己的博客、Quib和几条推文之外，还没怎么推广，就已经有大约175个订阅者和30个超棒的贡献者了。

I haven't promoted it outside my own blog, Quib, and a couple of tweets, and I got about 175 subscribers and 30 kickass contributors.

但更让人振奋的是，有人主动发邮件、当面跟我聊，说他们很喜欢这个产品。

But what's even more encouraging is the unsolicited emails and face-to-face conversations, people telling me they love it.

我觉得有机会把它做成一个真正的事业。

I think there's an opportunity to turn it into a real thing.

我正在和我的哥们内森一起把它做起来，很想听听你的意见。

I'm working with my buddy Nathan to build this out, and I would love your opinion.

你介意我把设计稿和几个问题发给你看看吗？

Would you mind if I shot you the mock-ups and a couple of questions?"

我觉得这招对我特别管用。

And I think that this worked beautifully on me.

我回了一封像论文一样长的邮件……因为早期喜欢Product Hunt的人都是硅谷那些自以为什么都懂的人。

I wrote back like an essay- ... because the people who liked Product Hunt in the beginning were the Silicon Valley know-it-alls of the world.

我们热爱产品。

We love products.

我们喜欢发表意见。

We love giving our opinion.

我们喜欢看设计稿。

We love seeing mock-ups.

我宁愿看一个设计稿，也不愿意看一个已经上线的网站。

It's like I'd rather see a mock-up than a live website.

因为你们早期给我们的那种感觉，你一直保持了很久。

Because there's something about that early, early that you were giving us, and you kept that going for a long time.

我记得你会在发布新功能之前，把公开的设计稿放出来，让整个社区的人都能看到。

I remember you had public mock-ups up available for the whole community to look at before you would release a feature.

所以你是一步一步在做这些事，这正是我想强调的，因为大多数人只是把东西做出来，然后坐着等。

And so you were doing this stuff brick by brick, and that's what I want to highlight because most people just build it and sit and wait.

我还记得你当时拼命发邮件、发推文。

And I remember you were pounding emails out, pounding tweets out.

跟我说说你是怎么做到的，而且你为什么觉得这样做是对的，因为我觉得这很少见。

Tell me about how you were doing that, and why did you even think that was the right thing, because that's rare, I would say.

大多数人不会真的这么做。

Most people don't really do that.

说实话，其实有一部分原因就是觉得好玩。

Part of it was just fun, actually, to be honest.

其实我在不同项目里尝试的很多东西，就是觉得好玩。

A lot of what I've experimented with in different projects is just like, this just sounds fun.

我每天早上醒来，心里就痒痒的，非得继续探索下去不可。

And I woke up every morning and sort of had this bug that I just had to explore this further.

所以一部分原因就是，做这件事让我很开心。

So part of it was just, it was enjoyable.

第二，我很快意识到，做社区就得让它有活气，让人觉得有势头。

Two, what I realized and knew quickly was with communities, it needs to feel live, and it needs to feel like there's momentum.

我知道，对，我就该继续做那些管用的事，比如亲手给用户发邮件、发推特，欢迎他们，然后一直这么做，确保能慢慢拉来更多用户，让社区更活跃，这样你下星期再来的时候，就会觉得，哇，多了好多赞，多了好多评论。

And I knew that, okay, I should just continue to do what's working, which is doing a lot of manual things, like welcoming people directly and personally through email and Twitter and so on, and just keep doing that and make sure that we can trickle in more users and get more activity going, so that when you come here next week, it actually is, whoa, there's more up votes, there's more comments.

哦，这个我在技术圈认识的人也开始评论了。

Oh, there's this person that I know through the technology world is now commenting.

这样一来，社区就有了积累的感觉，自然就能吸引人。

And so it starts to feel like there's this buildup, and that just attracts people.

大家都想参与新鲜又酷的东西，尤其是这些科技圈里的早期用户。

People want to be part of something new and cool, especially in this demographic of tech early adopters.

我觉得那种建议和领悟就是，一旦你找到了某件事，就继续做下去，直到它不再有效为止。

I think that sort of advice and realization was once you find something, just keep doing it, and do it until it stops working

所以你就是早上五、六点起床，拿杯咖啡，坐在咖啡店里，然后整天跟人聊天。

And so you were just waking up 5:00, 6:00 AM, grab a coffee, sit in a coffee shop, and talk to people all day.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

大部分时间确实是这样。

A lot of it, yeah.

大部分时间都是这样。

A lot of that.

而且还会用像Intercom这样的工具来看谁注册了，甚至有个很酷的时刻，就是Intercom有个功能，可以实时看到谁在你的网站上。

And using things like Intercom to see who was signing up, and there was even a moment when it was kind of cool when Intercom has this feature where you can see in real time who's on your website.

当你做出一个东西，而且有人在使用它的时候，那种感觉真的很满足。

And when you build something and people use it, it's like a satisfying feeling.

那是最棒的感觉，尤其是当你看到，哦，我认识的人也在用的时候，那就更好了。

It's like the most amazing feeling, and it's even better when you can see, oh, this person I know is on it.

比如有一天阿什顿·库彻和凯文·罗斯注册了，我当时就想，哇，这些我一直关注和敬佩的人，居然在用我们做的东西。

Like Ashton Kutcher signed up one day and Kevin Rose, and I was like, "Whoa, these people that I've followed and admired for a long time, they're using this thing we built.

这真的太酷了。

That's really cool."

我记得你当时几乎是在放大这件事，因为我记得我有个不同的邮箱，你发消息说，嘿，阿什顿·库彻注册了，他想做某件事，之类的。

And I remember you were almost amplifying it, because I remember I have a different email here where you're like, "Hey, Ashton Kutcher signed up and he wants to do X," or something like that.

你还说，我在考虑给他发这个。

And you were like, "I'm thinking about sending him this.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?"

那一刻我感觉阿什顿·库彻注册的是我的应用，因为我觉得这太让人兴奋了。

And I felt like Ashton Kutcher signed up for my goddamn app in that moment, because I was like, "This is exciting.

我们应该试试这个。

"... we should try this."

我当时觉得，你会把一个好的苗头放大，我跟朋友开玩笑说，我觉得你是第一个在推特上建立自己业务、但业务跟推特完全无关的人。

And I was like, you would take a nugget of something good and amplify it, and I think that I've joked around with friends that I feel like you were the first guy to build your business on Twitter that had nothing to do with Twitter.

而且现在，在我们投资的另一家公司Lambda School，创始人Austin Allred也在做同样的事情。

And today, in this other company we invested in, Lambda School, the founder, Austin Allred, he's doing the same thing.

他在Twitter上分享每一个胜利，大家都很喜欢。

He shares every victory on Twitter, and people love it.

他基本上是在营造一种——就是那种持续不断的好消息和有趣内容的节奏——

And he's basically building the-- There's this drumbeat of good news and interesting stuff-

每天都在Twitter上更新。

... on Twitter every day.

你看到他在那边做的事情了吗？

Have you seen what he's been doing there?

我觉得他讲故事讲得非常好，而且我认为最好的方式就是突出别人的成功。

I think he's done an amazing job of telling the story, and I think the best way to do so is to highlight other people's wins.

所以，我记得前几天他发了一条推文，说这是第一次Lambda School的学生实际赚得更多，刚找到一份工作，赚得比Lambda School的任何人都多——

And so I think the other day he tweeted something like, this is the first time one of the Lambda School students actually is making more money, just got a job making more money than anyone that's at Lambda School-

比Lambda School的任何人都多，对。

Anyone at Lambda School, right.

包括奥斯汀自己，我当时就想，"哇。"

... including Austin himself, and I'm like, "Wow."

我还跟他开玩笑说，"奥斯汀，那你可能也该去上Lambda School。"

And I joked to him, like, "Austin, you should probably go through Lambda School then."

"说不定你能赚更多钱。"

"Maybe you can make more money."

是的，他们做得确实很了不起。

Yeah, it's pretty impressive what they've done.

对，太厉害了。

Yeah, that's amazing.

好，那你就是用那种手动搭建的策略。

All right, so you take it to use that sort of manual building block strategy.

你做到了几千个订阅用户。

You get up into the few thousand subscribers.

接下来会发生什么？

What happens from there?

这怎么变成——给我们一个规模的概念。

How does this become-- And give us a sense for the scale.

每月数百万访客是它达到的水平，对吗？

Millions of visitors every month is where it got to, correct?

那你是怎么从那个阶段发展到这个阶段的？

So how did you go from there to there?

一开始是朋友，然后是一些口碑传播，然后大量手动邀请，部分原因是——其实，有件事我没提到，就是有时候我看到一些积极参与的人，我会给他们发邮件说：‘嘿，你认识两个可能对贡献和参与这个感兴趣的人吗？’

Beginning it was friends, then it's some word of mouth, and then it's a lot of manual inviting in, and part of that's to-- Actually, one thing I didn't mention is there were also moments where I'd see people who were engaged, and I would actually email them and say, "Hey, do you know two people that might be interested in contributing and being part of this?"

现在如果我这么做，多两个人用Product Hunt不会有什么意义。

Which today if I do that, two more people using Product Hunt's not going to be meaningful.

但那时候，确实有意义。

But then, actually it was.

比如多拉几个人，给20个人发邮件，这确实有意义。

Like getting a couple more people and email 20 people, it actually is meaningful.

所以，另一个在初期有用的策略其实是媒体宣传。

And so the other strategy that was useful in the beginning actually was press.

这又是大多数初创公司需要避免的事情。

And this is, again, something that most startups need to avoid.

媒体通常不会带来大量用户，尤其是不能持续带来。

Press is usually not going to drive a lot of users, especially not sustainably.

但对我们来说，这很相关，因为科技媒体，比如读TechCrunch或The Next Web的人，正是那些想访问Product Hunt的人。

But for us, it was relevant because the tech press, the people that read "TechCrunch" or "The Next Web" or others, those are the same people that want to visit Product Hunt.

所以我在《快公司》和其他一些媒体上写了一些客座博客文章。

And so I did some guest blog posts in like "Fast Company" and some others.

事实上，《快公司》上有关于我们如何获得前2000名用户的文章，里面详细讲了一些……

In fact, there's posts on "Fast Company" about how we got our first 2,000 users that kind of goes through some-

明白了。

Got you

……这些细节。

... of these details.

然后我们还通过基本上帮助媒体人做好他们的工作，与他们建立了很好的关系。

And then we also built a really good relationship with press by basically trying to help them in their job.

所以我们经常找一些特别酷、特别有意思的产品和公司，时不时地，我会给TechCrunch的Josh Constine这样的人发邮件，说：“嘿，Josh，我知道你对消费社交特别感兴趣。”

So we'd find really cool, interesting products and companies, and every now and then, I would email someone at, let's say, Josh Constine at TechCrunch and say, "Hey, Josh, I know you're really interested in consumer social.

这是我们通过Product Hunt发现的一个新应用。

Here's this new app that we found through Product Hunt.

它真的很酷。”

It's really cool."

对我来说，希望这能帮上忙。

And for me, hopefully it was helpful.

有时候他们会说：“哦，不错，Ryan。”

In some cases, they're like, "Oh, cool, Ryan."

就这样。

Whatever.

有时候他们会说：“哦，这个真酷。”

In other cases, they're like, "Oh, that's really cool.

你能把我介绍给创始人吗？”

Can you introduce me to the founder?"

或者，"哦，好的，让我写写这个。"

Or, "Oh, yeah, let me write about that."

这样一来，他们就会觉得有义务链接回Product Hunt，因为那是我介绍他们发现的。

And what that would do is they'd feel like an obligation to link back to Product Hunt because that's sort of where they found it through me.

而且他们也可能会觉得，我在工作上帮了他们忙。

And then they also just hopefully thought, well, I was being helpful to them in their job.

只要你帮了别人，他们就会一直记得你。

And whenever you're helpful to someone, it keeps you top of mind ultimately.

那你怎么知道媒体报道对你是好是坏呢？

And so how do you know if press is good for you or not?

我觉得这取决于你的目标。

I think it depends on the goal.

媒体报道有时候对获取用户有好处，有时候是融资策略，有时候是招聘策略。

So press can be good sometimes for user acquisition, sometimes it's like a fundraising strategy, sometimes it's a recruiting strategy.

比如，如果你有一篇特别好的《纽约时报》报道，那可能会让未来的员工觉得你更靠谱。

Like if you have a really good "New York Times" piece, that might add more legitimacy to future hires.

所以这取决于你想要达到的目标。

So it kind of depends on the goal that you're trying to achieve.

而且再说一次，对大多数公司来说，获得科技媒体报道实际上并不会带来真正的用户。

And again, most companies, getting tech press is not actually going to lead to actual users.

但如果像Product Hunt这样的平台，那为什么不试试，并且加大这个策略的投入呢？

But if it is like Product Hunt, then why not pursue it and double down on that strategy?

好的。

Okay.

然后你公司就成长了。

And so you grow the company.

在这个过程中，有没有遇到过完全行不通的时候？

Were there moments along the way where things just totally weren't working?

比如你当时觉得，'哦，我们这下完了。'

Where either you were like, "Oh, we're effed here."

'这家公司要倒闭了。'

"This company's going to die."

或者你当时觉得，"我完全相信这能成"，然后，"啪，结果不行。"

Or where you're just like, "I totally think this is going to work," and like, "Bloop, nope.

根本行不通。"

Doesn't work."

跟我说说这一路上遇到的那些低谷吧。

So tell me about some of the downs that happened along the way.

说实话，确实有很多这样的时刻，这也在意料之中。

I think definitely a lot of those, not going to lie, which is expected.

你做的每件事最终不一定都能成功，所以做出明智的猜测很重要，但更重要的是尽快找出哪些真正有效，这通常意味着你得先做出来，或者做个原型什么的。

Not everything you build is going to work ultimately, and that's why it's so important to have really smart guesses, but then figure out which ones actually work as fast as possible, which usually means you've got to build it or build some sort of MVP or something.

我们在产品开发和功能设计上经历了很多失败。

So we've gone through a lot of failures around the product development and the features we build.

可能最大的代价高昂的错误，我负全责，是在2015年左右。

Probably the biggest costly mistakes, which I take full responsibility for, was, this was about 2015 or so.

那时候我们刚融完A轮，资金充裕，有很多可以探索的方向。

So this was after we raised our series A. We had long runway, lots to explore.

当时的愿景和方向是，我们在科技领域有一个非常棒的社区，是个发现新应用和科技产品的好地方。

Part of the vision and the direction was, okay, we had a really amazing community in technology, cool place to discover new apps and tech products and so on.

我们相信这可以扩展到其他有类似动态的领域。

We believe that this can expand into other categories that have similar dynamics.

比如游戏。

For example, gaming.

我之前是来自电子游戏行业的。

I come previously from the video game world.

游戏社区也有类似的动态，游戏创作者们也非常需要分发渠道，需要用户，需要社区的反馈，而且当时确实没有一个好的社区平台来发现“今天有哪些新游戏”，并且能和游戏创作者以及……

The gaming community has similar dynamics where game creators, they also really want distribution, they need users, they want feedback from a community, and there really wasn't a great community place to discover, "Here are the new games today," and a discussion with the creators of the games and the-

……喜欢这些游戏的人进行讨论。

... people that love the games.

书籍也是一样。

Same with books.

书籍也有类似的动态，每天都有新书出版。

Books is a similar dynamic, where there are books coming out every single day.

每天怎么找到最新最酷的书呢？

How do you find the coolest new books every single day?

作者怎么跟读者交流呢？

How does an author communicate even with their readers?

现在这种情况其实很少发生。

Right now, that really doesn't happen all that much.

现在作者大多还是上播客，也就这样了。

It's mostly authors going on podcasts even today, and that's about it.

然后第三个领域也是播客。

And then the third piece was podcasts, too.

播客也面临类似的挑战。

So podcasts has a similar challenge.

播客创作者需要分发渠道，需要被发现，需要社区。

Podcast creators want distribution, want discovery, want community.

所以我们开始打造这些垂直领域，并且调整了产品设计，有点像我们自己的子版块，不过它们很简单，就是“今天最新游戏都在这里”这样的地方。

So we started building out these verticals, and we changed the product design to kind of have these almost like our own version of subreddits to an extent, except they were very minimal in that, "Here's a place to discover the newest games today.

这里是一个发现最新书籍和播客的地方。

Here's a place to discover the newest books and then podcasts."

几个月来，我们一直在设计这些体验，逐步搭建起来，甚至为每个垂直领域招聘了社区负责人。

And over several months, we spent designing these experiences and building them out and even hiring people to kind of lead on the community side in each individual vertical.

但问题是，最终我们发现这并没有带来增长，而且说实话，我们并没有做出一个好产品，这才是主要问题。

And the problem is, ultimately what we found is it didn't lead to growth, and we just didn't build a good product, actually, is the main issue.

好的。

Okay.

对于这些类别来说。

For those categories.

那后来发生了什么？

So what happened?

你们哪里做错了？

What'd you get wrong?

有几方面的问题。

So there are a few things.

首先，第一点就是产品体验。

One, it all starts with number one is the product experience.

我们不想为了适应这些不同的垂直领域而大幅改变整个Product Hunt的体验，以免让整体变得杂乱。

So we didn't want to clutter the overall producthunt.com experience by drastically changing the experience to adapt to all these other verticals.

比如说，游戏就是一个例子。

And so let's say gaming is one example.

我们想保持一个简单的每日信息流，支持点赞、评论等，这样和社区其他部分保持一致，让用户感到熟悉。

We want to keep a simple daily feed, up vote, comments, et cetera, so it's similar and it feels familiar to the rest of the community.

但实际上，在游戏领域，你不想让Xbox、PC和手机上的所有游戏都混在同一个信息流里。

But the reality is in gaming, you don't want Xbox and PC and mobile, all these games mixed together in the same feed.

你可能只玩一个，或者两个不同的主机或PC。

You probably play one, maybe two different consoles or PC.

那是你玩的平台。

That's what you play on.

你不想看到所有这些东西混在一起，所以对于真正的PC硬核玩家来说，体验会很糟糕，因为各种不同平台的游戏都冒出来，这确实是个糟糕的体验。

You don't want to see all that mixed together, and so the experience for someone who's a really hardcore PC gamer is pretty awful because you have all these different types of platforms being surfaced, and it just was a terrible experience.

还有播客，体验也不理想，因为这是个基于网页、主要面向桌面的体验。

And then podcasts also, it wasn't an ideal experience because this was a web-based, primarily desktop-focused experience.

你一般不会特意去网站听播客。

You're not going to really go generally to a website to listen to podcasts.

你希望是在手机上，在健身房或者通勤的时候听。

You want it on your phone, where you're at the gym or you're commuting.

所以主要问题就是产品体验不好。

So that was the major issue, is just the product experience was not great.

当时有两个大的方向可以选择。

There was two big directions we could take.

我们决定把所有这些整合到同一个域名下，但也考虑过拆分成gamehunt.com和podcasthunt.com。

We decided to incorporate it all in the same domain, but we also considered spinning it out into gamehunt.com and podcasthunt.com.

我们没有这么做，因为那也需要大量精力。

We didn't do that because that would just also require a lot of effort.

不过，那样做的话，我们就能在用户体验上更灵活，真正为那个社区打造出独特而原生的东西。

However, it would've allowed us to be more flexible in the UX and really create something authentic and native to that community.

所以如果我们当时走了那条路，也许情况会不一样，但我们最后还是失败了，然后有点往回退——

So if we went that direction, maybe things would be different, but we ended up failing on that and then kind of backtracking-

……然后砍掉了那些板块。

... and killing off those categories.

好的。

Okay.

所以你最后决定把公司卖掉。

And so you end up deciding to sell the company.

你把它卖给了AngelList。

You sell it to AngelList.

你跟我讲过一点这事是怎么发生的，因为当时我也在卖我的公司。

You told me a little bit about how that came about because I was in the process of selling my company.

我说：“嘿，这到底是怎么做到的？”

I said, "Hey, how the hell do you do this?"

然后你跟我讲了那次你和Naval一起散步的事。

And you told me about this walk you took with Naval.

跟我讲讲你和Naval散步的事吧。

Tell me about the walk with Naval.

Naval投资了我们的种子轮。

So Naval invested in our seed round.

我们一共融了两轮。

So we raised two rounds.

一轮是种子轮，基本上是在进YC的时候，吸引了很多优秀的人参与，然后在YC快结束的时候，我们又融了A轮。所以我们有两轮融资。

One was a seed round basically going into YC and got a lot of great people involved, and then towards the end of YC, we raised a series A. And so we had two rounds.

Naval两轮都参与了。

Naval was part of both of those.

回想起来，我一直很欣赏AngelList。

Going back, I'd always admired AngelList.

我以前经常浏览AngelList，找一些酷的产品和公司。

I used to browse AngelList looking for cool products and companies.

真的，周六早上我就会那样做，然后Command加点击一堆链接，说：“哦，这个酷，那个酷。”

And literally on a Saturday morning, I would just do that and Command + Click on a bunch of URLs and say, "Oh, that's cool, that's cool."

因为我就是个怪人。

Because I'm a weirdo.

但显然——

But obviously-

就像，那是我的科切拉音乐节。

Like, that's my Coachella.

那是我的科切拉。

That's my Coachella.

22个AngelList标签页，那就是我的科切拉。

22 AngelList tabs, that's my Coachella.

对，我就是那种人。

Yeah, I'm that guy.

但显然AngelList并不是为产品发现之类的而建的。

But obviously AngelList was not built for product discovery and everything.

但我一直挺欣赏他们所做的和所构建的东西。

But so I've always kind of admired what they've done and what they built.

所以时间快进到2016年，Naval一直是投资人，所以他全程都在参与，了解整个过程。

And so fast-forward, this is 2016, Naval had been an investor, so he's been in the loop and the whole process and everything.

我们当时在考虑，是进行B轮融资，还是寻求被收购。

And so we were in the process of exploring, do we raise series B or do we pursue acquisition?

所以我觉得，创始人要记住的一个重要点就是选择权。

So kind of, I think, one important thing for founders to take to heart is optionality.

选择权就是一切。

Optionality is everything.

不是说你要去追求所有的选项，但如果你同时有收购要约和B轮融资要约，那比只有一个要约要好十倍。

Doesn't mean you have to pursue all options, but if you have an acquisition offer and a series B offer, that's 10 times better than just having one offer.

所以我和Naval聊了聊，我记不太清具体对话是怎么进行的，但基本上是双方都有这个意向。

So Naval and I spoke, and I'm trying to remember exactly how the conversation proceeded, but it was sort of a mutual thing.

我主动去找他，心里想着："不知道有没有机会一起合作。"

I went to him, and in the back of my head I'm like, "I wonder if there's an opportunity to work together."

然后与此同时，他——

And then meanwhile, he-

我觉得你给人的感觉是，你不会主动提这件事。

I think you strike me as somebody who's not going to bring it up, though.

就像是在说，“这挺好的，但我不会强求。”

It's like, "This would be great, but I'm not going to force it."

“我几乎太尊重他了，所以不会很直白地提出来。”

"I have too much respect almost to bring it up kind of overtly."

就是——

It's-

看起来几乎是他先提的，然后你心里想：太好了。

It seems like almost he brought it up, and you're like Hell yes.

他是第一个明确提出来的人，但这有点像谈恋爱，你和某人成了朋友，然后你——

He was the first one that explicitly brought it up, but it's kind of like in dating when you're friends with someone and you-

……可能开始有点暧昧——

... maybe start to flirt-

表现出一些兴趣

Show some interest

稍微有点暧昧，然后你们俩心里都明白，“好吧，我觉得他可能对我有意思。”

... a little bit, and then you both kind of know, "Okay, I think he might be into me.

“她可能对我有意思。”

She might be into me."

所以我觉得差不多就是那种感觉。

So I think it was sort of like that.

然后——

And-

所以你们亲了？

So you kissed?

所以我和Naval亲了。

So we, me and Naval kissed.

非常亲密的那种。

It was very affectionate.

他的嘴唇很软。

He's got soft lips.

希望他别听到这个。

I hope he doesn't hear this.

然后从那时起，我们开始更认真地讨论，想清楚这到底会是什么样子，怎么运作，毕竟我们的团队是分散的，而你们的团队是集中的。

And so from there, we had more serious conversations of figuring out, okay, what would this look like, and how would this work, and we have a distributed team, your team is centralized.

这两种文化要怎么融合呢？

How are these cultures going to blend?

所以大概花了三四个月的时间，进行各种讨论和尽职调查，最后才得出结论。

So it was maybe three or four months of sort of discussions and diligence to come to a final conclusion there.

所以你卖了公司，现在有钱了。

And so you sell the company, you've got money now.

钱到账的第一天，你做了什么？

What happens that first day money hits the bank?

你是不是坐在那儿，一遍又一遍地刷新富国银行的页面，还是怎么着？

Were you sitting there refreshing Wells Fargo- ... over and over again, or what?

有些人喜欢搞个大庆祝。

Some people, they love to go celebrate with a big thing.

其实，我那天飞去了洛杉矶。

Actually, me, I flew to LA that day.

我记得那天是星期五，我女朋友住在洛杉矶，我们在一起已经四年了。

I think it was a Friday, and my girlfriend lives in LA, and we've been together four years now.

我们就是去了一家餐厅，我点了烤鸡和抱子甘蓝，还喝了一杯葡萄酒，就这些。

And we actually just went to a restaurant, and I ordered, of course, a rotisserie chicken and some Brussels sprouts, and I think I had one glass of wine, and that was it.

或者说是起泡酒。

Or it's sparkling wine.

就这些。

And that was it.

怎么说呢，在那之前，整个过程压力特别大，就像任何收购或融资过程一样。

And I don't know, it was a feeling of leading up to that was just a lot of stress, as with any acquisition or fundraise process.

特别让人焦虑，尤其是这种情况，因为当你融资的时候，你会……

It's super anxiety-inducing, and especially this situation because there's like, when you're raising money, you have this...

作为创始人和CEO，你处在中间的位置。

You're sort of in the middle as a founder and a CEO.

你有你的队友。

You have your teammates.

你有你的投资人。

You have your investors.

你有你自己。

You have yourself.

你有收购方。

You have the acquirer.

而你夹在中间，怎么让每个人都满意？

And you're sort of stuck in the middle of how do you make everyone happy?

而且不可避免的是，不是每个人都会完全满意。

And inevitably, not everyone's going to be perfectly happy.

总会有取舍。

There's going to be trade-offs.

所以那是我人生中压力最大的一段时间，就是在那之前，因为随时交易都可能泡汤，而我得为所有这些人的工作、投资人以及其他一切负责，所以我觉得那天更像是松了一口气，而不是别的什么。

And so that was the most stressful time of my life to date, was the leading up to that, because at any moment, a deal could fall through, and I'm sort of responsible for all these people's jobs and investors and everything else, and so I think for that day, it was like a sigh of relief a little bit more than anything.

所以你跟服务员说——

So you told the waiter-

……“把气泡酒拿上来。”

... "Bring out the sparkling wine."

“给我一杯气泡酒。”

"Give me one glass of sparkling wine."

“请来一杯普罗塞克。”

"A prosecco, please."

我觉得这就是孩子们说的那种兴奋劲儿。

I think this is what the kids call Molly.

那晚可没那回事。

No Molly that night.

然后基本上就回去工作了，我想。

And then it was really just back to work, I guess.

回去工作就是说，嗯，怎么确保每个人都舒服，每个人都觉得被照顾到？

I mean, back to work in terms of like, okay, how do we make sure everyone is comfortable, everyone feels taken care of?

在这个新组织里，我们怎么一起工作呢？

How do we work together in this new organization?

但现在两年半过去了，我们好像还是回到工作本身了。

But now it's been two and a half years later, and we're still just back to work, I guess.

太棒了。

Love it.

所以，我做这个播客的目标，就是请有趣的人来讲他们真实的故事，而这些故事恰好都非常有意思。

And so, my goal with this podcast is interesting people telling their true, which happens to be really interesting stories.

另外一部分就是，在数字和钱方面保持透明，让大家能学到东西。

And then the other part is a level of transparency around numbers and money so people can get educated.

因为钱是个很奇怪的话题，大家都避而不谈，好像说“别谈我们怎么赚的钱，怎么花的钱，怎么投资的——”

Because money's this weird taboo thing where we're like, "Don't talk about how we got it, how we spend it, how we invest it-"

……怎么赚更多的钱，这很奇怪，因为越开放，大家就越能改善自己的处境。

... how we earn more of it, which is strange, because the more open we are, the more people can kind of better their own situations.

这不会影响你的情况。

It won't affect your situation.

所以，给正在听这个节目的人，还有那些听众，我想象中的场景是你在通勤上班的路上。

And so give somebody who's listening to this, and people who are listening to this, the way I imagine it is you're commuting to work.

你现在是某个公司的员工。

You're an employee at a job today.

你梦想着创业。

You dream of startups.

你要么在创业公司工作，要么梦想着有一天自己创业，他们能通过你的故事找到共鸣，比如会说：'嘿，他之前在Playhaven待过。'

You're either working at a startup, or you dream of starting one one day, and they can relate to kind of your story by saying, "Hey, he was at Playhaven."

你在Playhaven的时候赚多少？

What were you making when you were at Playhaven?

那时候你的薪水是多少？

What was your salary then?

对，我记得，这些年里我涨过一两次工资，但最后应该是12万。

Yeah, I think it was, I got one or two raises over the years, but I think I ended at 120,000.

所以你一年赚12万美元。

So you're making $120,000 a year.

薪水很不错。

Great salary.

你得到了这份工作。

You got this job.

你有了这份确定性。

You got this certainty.

你最终选择放手一搏，去开创自己的事业，这真的很棒。

You end up taking a leap of faith, going to starting your own thing, which is fantastic.

现在快进到今天。

And now fast-forward to today.

你觉得，怎么说呢，你现在和金钱的关系是怎样的？

How do you think, like, I guess, what's your relationship with money today?

这是你真正追求的东西吗？

Is this something you're really driven by?

还是你根本不在乎，连看都不看一眼？

Do you not even look and don't even care?

你是不是在尝试找新的赚钱方式？

Are you trying to explore new ways to make money?

跟我说说你现在对钱是怎么想的。

Tell me about how you're thinking about money now.

我觉得，我后来在旧金山买了一套公寓，这算是一个很大的里程碑，在这里能做到挺不容易的——

I think I, so I was able to buy a condo in San Francisco, which is a huge milestone that is hard to achieve here-

……那是在那次收购之后，而且这也有点算是个投资决定，到目前为止，根据Redfin的数据，表现还不错。

... after that acquisition, and that was partly an investment decision as well, which so far according to Redfin, it's done well.

好的。

Okay.

再看看情况吧。

We'll see.

那Redfin的估价确实让人喜欢。

Got to love that Redfin estimate.

是啊。

I know.

旧金山确实需要更多住房，这是肯定的。

We need more housing here in San Francisco, that's for sure.

对我来说，我一直很幸运。

And so for me, I've been fortunate.

我来自一个中产阶级家庭，所以从来没有为吃住之类的发过愁。

I came from a middle-class family, so I've never had challenges or worries about food or shelter or anything like that.

我上大学也不用自己掏钱。

I've also been able to go to college without having to pay for it.

我上学时确实打过工，但只是兼职，不像有些人那样必须工作来还债。

I did work through college, but as a part-time job, but it wasn't like I had to work to pay-

比如还八万美元的债务之类的。

... off $80,000 in debt or things like that.

所以在这方面我真的很幸运。

So I'm super fortunate in that sense.

所以某种程度上，现在钱对我来说并没有带来翻天覆地的变化。

So in some ways, money hasn't changed dramatically now today.

不过，我的想法是，我在职业生涯中尽量看得长远一些，所以我现在手头有好几件事在同时进行。

However, the way I think about it is I'm trying to think long-term in my sort of professional career, and so I have multiple things going right now.

好的。

Okay.

第一，Product Hunt 还是我的主要重心，而且说实话，我的大部分身家都跟 AngelList 绑在一起，所以我当然有动力确保它成功，毕竟 Product Hunt 是 AngelList 的一部分。

One, Product Hunt is still primary focus, and frankly, a lot of my net worth is tied up in AngelList, so I'm incented to make sure this is successful with Product Hunt being part of AngelList.

这是其中一块。

So that's sort of one piece.

然后我还创办了一个基金，这是另一块，我正试着——

And then I have the fund I started, too, which is another piece, which I'm trying to-

那个基金叫 The Weekend Fund。

And that's called The Weekend Fund.

我很喜欢这个名字。

Love it.

做这个基金，一部分是为了学习。

And that's partly to learn.

我一直想投资，一方面是为了学习，但也要看六七年、八年后能不能赚到钱。

I always wanted to invest, and partly to learn, but also we'll see in six, seven, eight years if I make any money on it.

但这也是我赚钱的另一个机会，用不同的方式获得一些优势。

But that's another opportunity for me to make money and kind of gain leverage in a different way.

Naval 在他的很多播客里都讲过这个，比如怎么获得优势，当然——

Naval actually talks about this in a lot of his podcasts around, like, how do you gain leverage, and sure-

你可能真的应该别听这个播客了……去听 Naval 的播客吧。

You should probably just stop listening to this podcast- ... and go listen to Naval's podcast.

这就是我会做的——

That's what I would do-

如果我是你的话。

... if I was you.

这是我真正的建议。

That's my actual recommendation.

对。

Yes.

我会从那里开始，然后最后再绕回这里。

I would start with that, and then somehow wander back here eventually.

他的见解肯定比我多得多。

He's got a lot more insights than I have, that's for sure.

但我真的在探索，怎么才能同时开展多个并行的事情，既能获得杠杆效应，又能以某种方式创造财富或产生影响？

But I'm really trying to explore, okay, how can I have multiple parallel things going on that gain leverage and either create money in some way or impact in other ways?

而且这不需要占用我的时间。

And that's not using my time.

所以这又回到了我之前说的。

So this is going back to what I said before.

我讨厌按时间计酬。

I hate getting paid by my time.

当然，做基金我会花很多时间，但我的时间并不直接决定结果。

With the fund, of course, I spend a lot of time on it, but my time doesn't have a direct input in the outcome.

关键在于我是否——

It's really do I-

选对公司。

Pick the right companies

……选对伟大的公司，看它们长期能否成功，能否给我、有限合伙人和基金带来回报。

... pick great companies, and do they succeed over the long term, and does that return capital to me and the LPs and the fund?

Product Hunt 和 AngelList 的情况也类似，如果我们成功并且做得很好，我在 AngelList 持有的股权也有望随之增值。

And the same is kind of true for Product Hunt AngelList, too, is if we're successful and we do really well, the stake in equity that I have in AngelList will hopefully grow as well.

所以我真正的“发薪日”——我加引号——还没到，而且它还在未来，因为很多都投在了基金和 AngelList 本身上。

So I'm sort of- My real payday, I put that in quotes, is still TBD, and it's out there because a lot of it's invested in the fund and AngelList itself.

但对我来说，我不知道。

But for me, I don't know.

除非发生什么坏事，否则我们不用担心吃住。

We don't have to worry about food and shelter unless something bad happens.

但我肯定还不能退休。

But I certainly can't retire.

离那还远着呢。

I'm far from that.

而且，你反正每顿饭基本都吃烤鸡，所以——

Plus, you basically rotisserie chicken anyways every meal, so-

是的

Yes

……

...

我觉得你不管怎样都很安全。

I think you're safe no matter what.

而且我买菠菜——

And I buy spinach-

在好市多七块钱？

Seven bucks at Costco?

我们这是在说什么呢？

What are we talking here?

你从哪儿买的鸡？

Where are you getting your chickens?

其实我的小窍门就是我一直吃同样的东西，而且很多都是菠菜沙拉之类的。

The pro tip actually is I eat the same things all the time, and then a lot of it's like spinach salads and stuff.

但在Instacart上，有一个批发...

But on Instacart, there's a bulk...

不是Costco，但实际上是所有餐馆去买散装食品的地方。

It's not a Costco, but it's actually where all the restaurants go for bulk foods.

在那里你可以花四美元买一袋两磅半的菠菜。

You can buy a two-and-a-half-pound bag of spinach for four bucks there.

所以我就买那个，能吃挺久的。

And so I just buy that, and that lasts me quite a while.

好的。

Okay.

小窍门。

Pro tip.

不错。

Nice.

瑞安·胡佛饮食法。

The Ryan Hoover diet.

90天塑形，同时创业。

Get fit in 90 days while building your company.

这是你的新——

This is your new-

这是我下一本书。

It's my next book.

我打算写一本书——

I'm going to write a book-

关于这个的。

... about it.

当然。

Of course.

如果你没写过健身书，那你还算努力过吗？

If you haven't written a fitness book, are you even trying?

我知道。

I know.

这就是我的感受。

Is the way I feel about it.

其实，这就是书名。

That's the name of it, actually.

我的书。

My book.

好吧。

All right.

那如果你现在21岁呢？

So what if you're 21 today?

我们把Product Hunt放一边。

Let's take Product Hunt away.

你有了自己的时间，也有了年轻的活力。

You have your time back, you have your youthful energy back.

你21岁，想赚一百万。

You're 21, you want to make a million bucks.

你今天会做什么样的事情？

What sort of thing would you do today?

你会把时间花在哪里？

Where would you spend your time?

我的做法一直是把时间花在我觉得有趣和好玩的事情上，我觉得这很激励人，因为，第一，如果你玩得开心，你就不会停下来。

My path has always been spending my time on the things that I find fun and interesting, and I find that motivating because, one, it's just if you're having fun, then you're not going to stop.

这会是你早上醒来想做的事，或者周六下午想做的事。

It's going to be the thing that you want to wake up and do, or the thing you want to do on a Saturday afternoon.

所以我会优先考虑这类事情。

And so I would prioritize those types of things.

那你现在觉得什么好玩？

So what's fun for you nowadays?

除了工作之外的事情，比如去听现场音乐就很好玩。

There's the non-work stuff, like going to live music is fun.

但说到职业上的乐趣，我真的很喜欢投资、和创始人聊天，还有研究各个领域，这些真的很有意思。

But when it comes to more professional fun, I really enjoy investing and speaking with founders, and researching spaces, and that's really enjoyable.

当然，Product Hunt对我来说依然很有趣。

Product Hunt is still fun for me, of course.

部分原因是我们正在开发新东西。

Partly because we're building new things.

我们正在打造一个全新的网站和品牌，这个我私下再跟你细说。

We're building an entirely new site and brand, which I'll tell you about offline, actually.

好的。

Okay.

对，同时也在利用Twitter。

Yeah, leveraging Twitter as well.

我们待会儿去吃点中餐，然后聊聊一些疯狂的想法。

We're going to go grab some Chinese food and talk crazy ideas after this.

不过我想用一句话来总结一下。

But I do want to wrap it up on one note.

所以你有一个周末基金。

So you have The Weekend Fund.

跟我们说说这个基金吧。

Tell us a little bit about that.

创业者怎么联系你呢？

How should entrepreneurs reach you?

你在找什么样的创业者？

What type of entrepreneurs are you looking for?

跟我们说说——

Tell us-

……你打算怎么把我投给周末基金的那一万块钱……变成一千万美元。

... how you're going to turn my 10 Gs from The Weekend Fund- ... into $10 million.

这就是我们真正想知道的。

So that's what we really wanted.

这也是大家想听的。

That's what the people want to hear.