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基本上，没什么事可做。
Basically, had nothing to do.
我总是和朋友出去喝酒，几乎每天五天。
I was just going out drinking with my friends all the time, like, almost, like, five days a week.
我们有系统在中午和午夜向我们发送数据。
We have the system sending us stats, like, at noon and at midnight.
一万美元，一万五千美元。
$10,000, $15,000.
在好日子，大概两万多美元。
On a good day, like, 20 something thousand.
好的。
Okay.
它在录音吗？
And is it recording?
好的。
Okay.
给我十秒钟。
Give me about ten seconds.
好的。
Okay.
那这是什么？
So what is this?
所以是能让我娱乐的东西。
So something that entertains me.
所以我想要制作一个播客，首要目的只是找个借口，和那些我平时没太多机会见面的人聚一聚。
And so I wanted to create a podcast, which was first and foremost just an excuse to hang out with people who I haven't been able to hang out with as much.
一种方式是说，嘿，我们去喝杯咖啡吧。
So one way is to say, hey, let's go grab a coffee.
另一种方式是说，如果我们把这次对话录下来，让其他人也能旁观呢？
And the other way is to say, what if we recorded this so that other people could be a fly on the wall
嗯。
Mhmm.
听听关于各种琐事的故事或闲聊。
And hear stories or chatter about random stuffs.
我不是想把它做成教育性质的。
And I'm not trying to do it educationally.
所以对我来说，重点是故事。
So for me, it's stories.
所以故事这部分体现在播客的名字《我的第一个百万》上。
So stories is the part where so the podcast is called My First Million.
我选择这个名字的原因是，听这个播客的听众，他们要么已经是创业者，要么是准创业者，心里想着：嘿，那真是个梦想。
And the reason I picked that is because the audience that listens to this, they are, you know, entrepreneurs already or wantrepreneurs kind of thinking about, hey, know, it'd be that's the dream.
我真希望有一天能辞掉工作，自己创业。
I'd love to sort of quit my job and start a business someday.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得对我来说，我认为这对很多人来说都一样，那就是一百万美元这个数字像是个魔力数字。
And I remember for me, and I think this applies to many people, which is the idea of a million bucks is like a magic number.
即使今天每个人都是亿万富翁，但如果你是个千富翁，
Even today when everyone's a billionaire, still, if you're if you're a thousandaire
是的。
Yeah.
一百万美元听起来还是像所有的钱。
A million bucks sounds like all the money.
完全理解。
Totally understand.
所以，
And so
事实上，当我赚到第一百万时，我把所有钱都存在一个账户里，然后去取款机。
In fact, when I made my first million, I put it all in one account and I went to the ATM.
只是为了看看，
Just to look
看它？
at it?
是的。
Yeah.
然后我取了钱。
And I and I withdrew money.
所以我有一张纸条，上面写着我有一百万美元。
So I would have a slip of paper that said I had a million dollars.
你把它装裱起来了。
You framed that.
你那张纸条怎么处理的？
What'd you do with the slip?
是的。
Yeah.
有趣的是，后来我们开了很多玩笑，因为我那些ATM机上显示的都是百万美元。
Well, you know, the funny thing is like, then we had all these jokes because I had these ATMs with a million dollars on it.
我们只是在开玩笑。
And we were just joking around.
我们当时就说，哥们，我们应该把这些收据放在钱包里。
We're like, man, we should, like, keep these in our wallet.
然后，比如当你给女孩电话号码时，她就会说，哦，不经意间。
And then, like, when you give a girl your phone number, she's like, oh Casually.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，让我让我写下来。
Like, let me let me write it down.
让我写下来，这是在大家都有手机之前的事。
Let me write this is before everyone had phones.
就像是，哦，让我把它写在一张纸条上。
Was like, oh, let me write it down on a slip of paper.
我我没有写那个。
I I haven't been writing that.
实际上从没做过，但那是个有趣的想法。
Never actually did it, but it was a funny it was it was a funny idea.
事实上，我记得后来我搜索了这个想法，发现确实有一些公司在网上出售假的ATM凭条。
And actually, it turned out, I remember, like, then I was I searched Googling the idea and, like, there were companies I remember that sold fake ATM slips online.
哦，真的吗。
Oh, wow.
所以我不是
So I wasn't
第一个想到这个点子的人。
the first guy thinking about doing this.
一个全新的产业。
A whole new industry.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以， basically，它叫《我的第一个百万》。
So so, basically, it's called My First Million.
我正在跟你聊他们是如何以各种方式赚到一百万美元的。
I'm talking to you about how they made a million bucks in all different ways.
所以，是啊。
So Yeah.
有些人是科技创业者，创办了企业。
Some people are tech entrepreneurs who start a business.
有些人靠卖蘑菇赚了一百万，他们是蘑菇种植户。
Some people made a million bucks selling mushrooms, and they're mushroom farmers.
有人通过加密货币、CBD赚到了钱，嗯。
Someone's did it in crypto, CBD Mhmm.
你知道的，各种不同的方式，比如房地产。
You know, all the different types of thing, real estate.
所以我想讲这些故事，让听众明白，首先，成功有一百万种方式。
And so I want to tell stories so that the listeners basically hear, man, first, there's a million ways to success.
你不必遵循某一条特定的道路。
You don't have to follow a particular track.
对。
Right.
还有，就是提供一点灵感和娱乐，让你了解这些故事通常有多么有趣。
And b, just a little bit of inspiration and entertainment about how, you know, these stories tend to be really interesting.
它们往往突如其来。
They kinda come out of nowhere.
这并不是一个完美的计划。
It wasn't a perfect plan.
也不是一条直线。
It wasn't a straight line.
通常都有起起落落。
It usually has ups and downs.
所以我想讲这些故事。
And and so I wanna tell those stories.
你知道，在哈佛商学院，他们有这些哈佛商学院案例。
You know, like, in Harvard Business School, they have these HBS cases.
对。
Right.
这些案例中的每一件事都像是，哦，你知道，肖恩正望着查尔斯河，思考着他将为自己的公司做些什么。
And everything everything in those cases is like, oh, you know, Sean was looking out the window at the Charles River thinking about what was what he was gonna do for his company.
而解决方案总是这样，他们给你提供所有这些数据。
And the solution is always like they give you all this data.
然后在最后，就像，哦，他做了这个、这个、这个、这个和这个。
And then at the end, like, it's like, oh, he did this and this and this and this and this.
然后他又做了那个、那个、那个、那个。
And then he did that and that and that and that.
好像一切解决方案都像是一个整齐打包好的东西。
It's like, oh, look like how, like it's everything's like the solution was like a neat package.
对。
Right.
但现实中，你根本不知道，那个人根本没睡觉，他可能在最终做出那个决定之前，做了两千万件事，不管他是男是女。
And in reality, you're like you know, like, the guy wasn't, you know, he was not sleeping and, like, he probably did 20,000,000 things before he did what he actually ended up doing or she, whatever.
但有趣的是，虽然总是这样，但现实从来都不是这样的。
But, know, it's it's funny because, like, it's it's always like that, but it's reality is never like that.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
没错，就是这样。
So Exactly.
所以我先做个简短的介绍。
And so I'll give the brief intro.
今天我们邀请到了詹姆斯·洪。
So we have James Hong on the show.
他是一位企业家，曾创立了著名的公司Hot or Not，这可以说是病毒式传播兴起之前最早的大规模爆款产品之一。
Entrepreneur started famously a company called Hot or Not, one of the first tremendously viral product before viral was really even a thing, I would say.
现在他是天使投资人，是个非常不错的人。
And now angel investor, all around good guy.
我很高兴能和你交谈。
I'm excited to be talking to you.
我上一次和你谈话还是五年前呢。
Last time I talked to you was, like, five years ago.
嗯。
Yeah.
那已经是很久以前的事了。
That's a long time ago.
所以能重新联系真好。
So it's good to good to reconnect.
所以我总是会问一个不一样的问题，不是‘你是怎么做到的’，而是：你从小就想赚一百万美元吗？
And so I always start with, you know, not kinda how'd you do it, but a different sort of question, which is really, did you always wanna make a million bucks?
比如，你小时候想成为有钱人吗？
Like, when you were growing up, did you wanna be rich?
那是你的目标吗？
Was that a goal of yours?
不一定。
Not necessarily.
我并没有真的觉得，我必须变得富有。
I wasn't really like, oh, I have to be rich.
我妈妈告诉我，我画过，我有点记得这事。
I my mom tells me that I drew I kinda remember this.
三年级时，我给她画了一幅我家的画，我记得画的是在水边，还有两个直升机停机坪。
In third grade, I drew her a picture of my house and it was I just remember it was on the waterfront and it had like two helicopter landing pads.
所以，也许我确实想过。
And so maybe maybe I did.
但当我长大，上完大学后，我并没有觉得我非得变得富有不可。
But by the time I grew up, by the time I went through college, I was I wasn't really like I need to be rich.
但我确实想做点什么，你懂我的意思吗？
But I did wanna do something, you know what I mean?
我不想感到无聊。
Like I didn't wanna be bored.
我第一份工作是在惠普，我记得当互联网刚出现时，我主要负责技术产品的销售支持。
The thing I learned at my first job which was at Hewlett Packard, I remember is when the web first came out and I was doing basically sales support for a technical product.
因为我厌倦了总有人打电话问我同样的问题，所以我建了一个网站。
And I created a website because I was tired of all these people calling me with the same questions.
我基本上取代了我自己的工作，还有两位同事的工作。
I basically eliminated my job and the job of two other people, my coworkers.
我们都转去做别的事情了。
We all got deployed onto other things.
但我记得他们给了我一笔奖金，或者说是加薪，大概就五美元左右。
But I remember thinking like, they gave me a bonus of like, you know, they raised they gave me a raise of like $5 or something like that.
我当时就想，我刚消灭了三个岗位，那时候这些岗位的薪资加起来可能有几百美元，而我只拿到了五美元。
And I'm like, I just eliminated like, you know, three jobs that was probably like, you know, back then, like couple $100 or something And like I got $5.
我就在想，我永远不可能赚到我为公司创造的价值那么多钱，因为一家大公司至少得按照员工提供的平均价值来支付薪水。
And I just remember thinking like, I'll never make as much money as the value I deliver in a company because a company a big company at least has to kind of pay people based on kind of like the median value that any given person at the company will provide.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得这可能是唯一有点变化的地方，比如在谷歌和Facebook，它们现在愿意说，哇哦。
I think that's kind of the one thing that's changed a little bit like at Google and at Facebook is that they're now willing to be like, oh, wow.
你创造了数亿美元的价值。
Like, you created, like, hundreds of millions of dollars in value.
也许他们还是不会给你几亿美元，但他们可能会说：我们给你一千万。
Then maybe they don't maybe they still don't give you a couple 100,000,000, but they'll be like, we'll give you 10,000,000.
对。
Right.
所以至少，也许今天的情况没那么不同，只是事情的规模更大了，而且他们能做到，因为利润率非常高。
So at least maybe maybe it's not that different today except that things operate at a higher scale and that they're able to because the margin is so high.
但不管怎样，我当时就想：去他的。
But in any case, I was like, you know, screw that.
我要自己创业，这样我才能真正拿到我创造的价值。
Like, I'm I'm gonna go work for myself because then I can actually extract, you know, what I actually Yeah.
创造的。
Created.
大多数人看不到这一点。
Most people don't see that.
所以，如果你在一家公司工作，这并不是因为公司是邪恶的。
So if you're at a company and this is not because companies are evil.
这实际上只是你必须运营的标准方式。
This is really just the standard way you have to operate.
如果某人比同事的生产力高十倍、优秀十倍，通常你不可能支付他们十倍的薪水。
You can't if somebody's 10 times more productive, 10 times better than their peers, you can't pay them 10 times as much usually.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我要说的重点。
That's exactly the point.
人们在这些大公司赚的钱，比作为创业者取得相当成功——哪怕只是打出二垒安打或三垒安打——还要多得多。
People make straight up more money at these big companies than they would being fairly successful as an entrepreneur, you know, hitting a double or hitting a triple even.
你知道的？
You know?
所以，这是因为这些公司的规模是
So And that's because the scale of these companies is
嗯。
Yeah.
因为规模和利润率，这是家万亿美元的公司。
Because the scale and the margin trillion dollar company.
利润率很高。
The margin is high.
对。
Right.
这确实是关键区别。
That's really the difference.
所以你刚毕业就去了惠普吗？
So And so you you were was it straight out of college that you were at Hewlett Packard or
我刚毕业就去了。
That was straight out of college.
所以我想，算了吧。
So I was like, forget it.
但与此同时，发生了一件有趣的事，我1990年入学，1995年大学毕业。
Because in the meantime, know, you a funny thing that happened is this is '90 I got out of college in '95.
你上的是哪所大学？
And where'd you go to school?
我就读于伯克利。
Just I went to Berkeley.
好的。
Okay.
我学的是工程，主修电气工程和计算机科学。
And did engineering electrical engineering, computer science degree.
有趣的是，我记得1994年，那一年Mosaic浏览器问世，这是第一个网页浏览器。
And the funny thing is like, you know, in '94, I remember '94, that's when Mosaic came out, the first web browser.
从伯克利毕业时，成绩好的人都去读研，或者最差也能找到好工作，比如去英特尔或惠普之类的公司。
You know, coming out of Berkeley, everyone who got good grades went to grad school or, you know, at worst got a got the good jobs, which the good job was like going to Intel or HP or whatever.
对。
Right.
我去了一家惠普公司。
And I went to HP.
与此同时，那些成绩没那么好的朋友，进不了顶尖研究生院，也拿不到惠普的工作，反而去了我们从未听说过的公司，比如eBay、雅虎之类的。
And meanwhile, our friends who were not as strong students, who couldn't get into grad a good grad school, who couldn't get a job at HP, they ended up taking jobs at other places that we'd never heard of, like eBay and Yahoo or whatever.
所以，大概是96年或97年，也许是96年。
So, like, around nine around '96 or '97, maybe '96.
当雅虎上市时，这些朋友全都发财了。
Like, whenever Yahoo went public, all these friends got rich.
那时候我才意识到，哦，我该玩什么游戏呢？
And that's kinda like when you realized that, like, oh, like What games should I play?
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
我赢了吗？
Did I win?
因为当你刚毕业的时候，你还是会想，谁成绩最好、谁最努力，诸如此类，对吧？
Because well, you know When you're when you're at a you know, when you come straight out of school, you're still thinking, oh, whoever gets the best grades, whoever works the hardest, blah blah blah Right.
谁就该得到最大的奖励。
Deserves the, you know, the big prize.
然后你突然意识到：等等，刚才发生了什么？
And then you're like, wait, what just happened?
这就像现实突然击中了你，你知道吗？
That's kind of like when reality hit and it's like, you know what?
我的意思是，人生中有许多因素决定了你最终会怎样。
Like, life is not I mean, there's a lot of things in life that determine how you end up doing.
而且很多都是运气。
And I mean, a lot of it's luck.
很多只是机缘巧合之类的。
A lot of it's just circumstance or whatever.
所以无论如何，我意识到，我在惠普是发不了财的。
And so anyway, I realized that I was like, I'm not gonna get rich at HP.
而且不仅如此，我也没从那些工作中获得价值，那些工作其实变得更高效了。
And not only that, I didn't get the value of like that jobs I I, you know, got Made more efficient.
嗯。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以那时候，我想：去他的吧。
And so so around that time, I was like, okay, screw this.
当时我就想：我可不干了。
Like, at that point, I was like, I'm out of here.
然后我想，要么就去读商学院，因为那时候大家都觉得商学院是个出路。
And then I was like, well, I was either gonna go to business school because that back then, everyone thought business school was was a path.
实际上，在某种程度上确实如此，因为那时候要创业，你必须去筹风险投资。
And actually, some degree, it it kind of was because back then to start anything, you needed to raise venture money.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果你有丰富的工程经验，或者像MBA这样的背景，当时筹集风险投资会更容易，因为风投们倾向于资助其他MBA。
And it was easier to raise venture money if you had either a lot of experience on the engineering side or, you know, like, it was MBA, VCs funding other MBAs.
对吧？
Right?
所以，当时读MBA被视为成为创业者的一条路径。
So it was kind of seen as a path back then to get an MBA to become entrepreneur.
但今天你不必这样做了，主要是因为创业的成本低了很多。
Today, you don't have to do that because mainly because the cost is so much lower of starting up.
对吧？
Right?
比如，过去你启动一个企业需要什么？
Like, you know, like Back
那时候，你启动一个企业需要什么？
then, what did you need to start
开一家公司？
a business?
那时候，要创办一家公司，首先肯定需要一台Sun机器。
Back then, it's like, oh, to start any company well, first of all, certainly, you needed a Sun machine.
机器。
Machine.
对吧？
Right?
你需要一台Sun的服务器来运行网页服务器。
You need a a box from Sun to run the web server.
那可能要花五十万到一百万美元左右。
And, you know, that might be like half $1,000,000 or something.
我的意思是，刚开始就要花很多钱。
I mean, like, just to get started cost a lot of money.
而且那时候可用的工具也没那么多。
Plus there weren't there weren't as many tools.
对吧？
Right?
这个套件很贵。
The kit was expensive.
如果你想买那个盒子来玩，就买吧。
Buy if you wanna buy the box to play
只是搭建一个带有数据库的网站，人们就觉得至少得有一百万美元。
Just to put up a website with like, you know, like, with a database on it, like, people thought you have to have a million bucks at least.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以没人会随身带着一百万美元。
And so nobody has a million bucks lying around.
那现在，做这件事你需要什么？
And to today, what do you need for that?
什么都不需要。
Nothing.
我的意思是，你知道的
I mean, you know
五个小时？不行。
Five hours and No.
我的意思是，你可以免费获得一个盒子，你知道的，从亚马逊免费获得一个实例，对吧。
Mean, like, you get your you get a free box, you know, free instance from Amazon Right.
你知道的，随便吧。
You know, whatever.
这简直不值一提。
It's like it's nothing.
几乎是免费的。
It's virtually free.
没错。
Yep.
实际上，当我们刚开始做Hot or Not时，它刚火起来的时候，是运行在我从E*Trade免费获得的一台电脑上的，我想是因为开了个账户并存了500美元。
Actually, when we started Hot or Not, when it first started taking off, it was built on a PC I got for free from E Trade, I think, opening an account with $500 in it.
那时候的Dinghyz机器好像没有内存什么的，但还能当服务器用，虽然跑得不怎么样，但至少让我们上线了。
It was like the Dinghyz machine had no memory or anything, but it could run as a server, not very well, but it got us online.
对吧？
Right?
当流量开始增长时，我们第一个想法就是得弄台Sun机器。
And the first thing we we thought was like, we need to get a Sun machine like when things took off.
于是我们就搞了一台Sun机器。
And so we got a sun machine.
当时我们是通过Rackspace租用的。
We were leasing through Rackspace, think at the time.
我记得很清楚，当时我和拉里·佩奇在帕洛阿尔托一家餐厅门口闲逛，他说：‘你应该从Rackable买，那是一家做1U机架式系统的公司。’
I remember distinctly like hanging out in front of some restaurant in Palo Alto and Larry Page saying, oh, yeah, you should buy from Rackable, which was a was 1U rack mount system company.
结果发现，我隔壁两户人家的那个人，就是谷歌的第20号员工，他当时还常说：‘我们这儿有位神经外科医生。’
And it turned out that, like, my neighbor two doors down was the guy the guy who he was like number 20 at Google and he was like he was like the remember they used to say that we have a neurosurgeon on staff Yes.
随便吧。
Whatever.
就是他。
That was him.
他负责管理他们所有的数据中心运营。
And he was in charge of scaling all their data center ops.
所以他很有用。
And so he was handy.
他当时说：‘伙计们，’
And he was like, yeah, guys.
你们应该去买
You should get
这可以说是谷歌一个鲜为人知的故事，关于他们为何能如此疯狂地获胜和扩展的原因之一。
And this is kind of an untold story about Google's, you know, one of the reasons why they were able to win and scale so crazy.
人们很少谈论这一点，那就是他们使用的是廉价的通用硬件。
People don't talk too much about this, which is they were using commodity cheap hardware
没错。
Yeah.
而不是这些昂贵的专用系统，它们更难
And instead of these expensive specialized systems that were harder
扩展。
to scale.
因为拥有千台机器的系统的稳健性远胜于单个沙箱。
Because the robustness of a system with a thousand machines was much better than one sandbox.
你知道，这本质上是将你所有的问题集中起来。
You know, it's basically centralizing all your problem.
你知道，单点故障，对吧。
You know, single points of failure Right.
你知道，就一台机器。
You know, one single box.
你看到了他们的情况，这就像罗杰·班尼斯特的四分钟一英里纪录，让你意识到：哦，我们也能用这种方式做到。
And you saw them and that was like your Roger Bannister four minute mile where you're like, oh, we can do it with that too
是的。
Yeah.
如果他们在做的话。
If they're doing it.
基本上。
Basically.
而且更便宜。
And it was cheaper.
我的意思是，我们没钱。
I mean, like, didn't have money.
所以我上商学院时欠了债，我的合伙人是个博士生。
So I was in debt from business school and my partner was a PhD grad student.
所以我们没钱。
So we didn't have money.
我当时我们净资产为负。
I was We were negative net worth.
所以Hot or Not就像是2000年的Tinder。
So Hot or Not kind of was like Tinder in, you know, 2000.
对吧？
Right?
那是一个网站，人们上传自己的照片，其他人则根据他们的颜值从1到10分进行评分。
It was it was a website where people would submit their picture and other people would rate them on a scale of one to 10 on how hot they were.
那时候，大家都害怕在网上发布自己的照片。
And this was kind of in the day when everyone was scared to post their photo online.
如果你在网上发布照片，那通常是在一个密码保护的页面上，比如Shutterfly或相册网站。所以，把照片公开给无法完全控制谁能查看的人看，这个概念在当时完全是陌生的。
Like if you posted your photo online, it was behind a password protected page that, you know, was for Shutterfly or a photo back So in the the concept of posting a photo for other people to see that you didn't have full control over who could see it was completely foreign
别管评分了。
at Forget the about the rating.
没错。
That was Yeah.
别管评分了。
Forget about the rating.
对。
Yeah.
实际上，评分这个想法是后来才出现的。
Actually, rating actually, as an idea came slightly second.
它最初是关于窥视欲的。
It it was originally about voyeurism.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那时候我沉迷于真人秀。
I was addicted to reality TV back then.
你当时在看什么？
What were you watching?
到现在还是。
Still am.
那时候，你知道的，我经常看杰瑞·斯普林格、里基·莱克之类的节目。
Back then, you know, I used to watch a lot of like Jerry Springer, Ricky Lake, all that kind of stuff.
那些日子最棒的部分是我自己竟然上了其中一些节目。
The best part of that those days was I actually ended up going on some of those shows.
你上过辛普森秀？
You were on Springer?
嗯。
Yeah.
我上过像里基·莱克那样的节目，我想，或者其中一个吧。
I was on like Ricky Lake, I think, or one of yeah.
也许是其中一个。
Maybe one of those.
作为嘉宾？
A guest?
或者类似那种的媒体曝光。
Or press on something like that.
嗯。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我当时是嘉宾评委。
As a I was a guest judge.
他们会请人出来，主题通常是，比如我朋友觉得自己很美，但实际上并不是。
They they had people come out, like, they had the themes would be, like, my friend thinks she's hot and she's really not.
然后他们会出来谈论这件事，最后我会出场，太棒了。
And then, like, they would come out and talk about it, and then I would come at the end and Amazing.
告诉他们他们的得分。
Tell them their score.
总之，所以呢，那么哪里
Anyway so anyway, like So so where did
这个想法是从哪里来的？
that idea come from?
把你的照片发到网上，然后你说你后来补充了。
Post your photo online, and then you said you added later.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以，是啊。
So so yeah.
评分只是个附加功能，就像，哦，有个机制让观众能提供反馈，这挺酷的。
The rating was, like, just kind of an add on, like, oh, it'd be cool to have a mechanism where, like, the audience could give data back
对。
Right.
而且当时还有一整套他们称之为双向网络的东西。
And make it there was this whole, what they called the two way web at the time.
互联网的本质就是对话。
It was like converse the web is about conversations.
对吧？
Right?
所以，观众能够真正做出回应，这个概念在当时是全新的。
And so it's like, the concept that the audience could actually give response back was new.
所以你喜欢观察别人。
So you'd you're you like people watching.
对。
Right.
但那还是，呃，灵感到底从哪儿来的呢？
But that's still, like still, where did the lightning bolt strike?
你知道吗，其实这一切背后有个故事，就是九十年代末有个叫‘土耳其帅哥’的人。
You know, actually, there's there's a backstory to all of this, which is that in the late nineties, there was this guy called the Turkish stud.
我不知道你有没有听说过
I don't know if you know about
我从来没听过
I've never heard of
这个人。
this.
这家伙，我觉得《波拉特》就是以他为原型的。
The guy actually, I think Borat was based on him.
我觉得演巴塔特的那个人否认了，但这一点很明显。
I I think the guy who does Borat denies it but it's so clear.
土耳其有个家伙，有个网页，上面有他打乒乓球之类的照片。
There was this guy in Turkey who had a a web page with pictures of him like playing ping pong or whatever.
有个人——直到今天也没人知道是谁干的——把这些照片拿去做了个假网页。
And somebody, no one I don't think to this day anyone knows who did it but someone took those pictures and made another web page that was a fake web page.
他自称是‘土耳其猛男’。
And it was like he was he called himself the Turkish stud.
他还说：谁想来我的国家？
And he's like, who wants to come to my country?
我可以邀请你。
I can invite you.
来发生关系吧。
Come have sex.
你知道的，这简直就是巴塔特。
You know, like, it was it was Borat.
基本上，就是，来吧，来点性感时光。
Basically, like, oh, come with sexy time.
对。
Right.
然后它就爆红了。
And and it blew up.
有一家公司叫eTour，他们趁势而上，eTour当时有点像StumbleUpon那样的平台，我觉得。
There was this company called eTour that kind of like jumped on it and brought eTour was like it was kind of like the equivalent then of StumbleUpon, I think.
但人们如果还记得Stumble的话，
And what people don't if people remember Stumble.
Stumble就是那种类似……的平台，比如
Just is stumble the equivalent upon of whatever, like
也许是今天的Reddit。
Reddit maybe today.
它基本上就像
It's basically like
它只是需要
It just took
你随机浏览网页上的内容。
you to random random things on the web.
因为那时候，网上的内容并不多。
Because back then, wasn't that much on the web.
没错。
Right.
所以这家公司Etor，把这个家伙炒得沸沸扬扬，最后他还上了莱特曼秀之类的节目，你知道，一个月内他就获得了大概百万页面浏览量之类的。
So this company, Etor, made a big deal out of this guy and he ended up on Letterman and whatever, you know, like and within a month, he had like, you know, million page views or something like that.
对吧？
Right?
我们只是——我和我朋友——觉得这很有趣。
And we just my my my friend and I just thought it was fun.
我的联合创始人吉姆·杨，他和我都觉得这非常滑稽，因为那时候有很多公司都在筹集大量资金，举办奢华派对之类的事情。
My co founder, Jim Young, he and I just thought it was hilarious because there are all these companies back in those days that were raising tons of money, throwing lavish parties and stuff like that.
你根本得不到十分之一的
You couldn't get a tenth of
页面浏览量。
the pages.
你根本得不到任何页面浏览量。
You couldn't get any page views.
那时候，史蒂夫·乔拉森刚开始谈论Hotmail的病毒式营销。
And and and, you know, this is when, like, Steve Juratson was starting to talk about viral marketing with Hotmail.
我们觉得这太他妈棒了，因为这简直是个讽刺。
And we're like, this is so fucking awesome because this it was just irony.
对吧？
Right?
这 guy 根本就没自己做这件事。
It's like this guy is like, he didn't even do it.
是别人替他做的，结果他却上了莱特曼节目，获得了所有其他人都渴望的海量访问量。
Someone did it to him and he ended up like on Letterman and getting all these hits that all these other people were dying for.
我们只是觉得这很有趣。
We just thought it was funny.
所以我们心里一直有个想法，总有一天我想建一个土耳其风格的精品店。
And so we kind of had in the back of our mind, like, someday, I wanna do I wanna build a Turkish stud.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
这根本不是为了钱。
So it wasn't even about money.
而是我想做一件能走红的事情。
It was about I wanna do something that goes viral.
对。
Right.
如果你想赚到第一百万，你得做足功课。
If you wanna make that first million, you've got to do your homework.
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有目标吗？
Got a goal?
在投入之前，先为自己制定一份路线图并做些研究。
Get yourself a road map and do research before you dive in.
一个受过教育的大脑就像一只手持刀具的郊狼。
An educated brain is like a roadrunner holding knives.
它非常迅速，难以停下，而且有点危险。
It's really fast, hard to stop, and it's a little dangerous.
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它将提升你的工作流程，管理你的工作量，并让你离赚钱更近一步。
It'll increase your workflow, manage your workloads, and get you one step closer to getting that money.
我当时对这个人着了迷。
And I was obsessed with this guy.
我记得我曾经把他设为屏幕保护程序，我还一直在打乒乓球。
Like, I had I remember I had, like, I had him as my screensaver, like, I've been playing ping pong.
所以当我们有一次讨论各种想法时，提到了窥视欲之类的东西，然后就说，哦，你知道的，你可以给它们打分之类的。
And so so when we were talking about the just various ideas one time, this voyeurism and whatever came up and then and then like, oh, you know, then you could rate them or whatever.
嘿，这可以成为我们的土耳其猛男。
Like, hey, this could this could be our Turkish stud.
对吧？
Right?
所以实际上，当我们开发它的时候，吉姆还是个研究生。
And so actually when we built it, you know, like Jim was a grad student.
当时我在一个朋友的公司工作。
I was working at a friend's company at the time.
我们只是消磨大量时间，准备在那栋房子里启动创业项目。
We were just killing a lot of time and we were ready to set up in this house to do a startup.
总之，吉姆就躲进房间，三四天后才出来。
So anyway, Jim just disappeared in his room and like three or four days later, he came out.
他就像说，好了，搞定了。
He's like, okay, it's done.
你知道吗，现在的话， literally 就二十分钟就能建好。
You know, today, could build it in like literally, like, twenty minutes.
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
但那时候，你得做很多额外的事情。
But back then, like, you had to do a lot of extra stuff.
对吧？
Right?
于是他出来了。
And so he came out.
他说，搞定了。
He's like, it's done.
然后
And then
它让你上传照片，是的。
And it let you upload a photo Yeah.
然后浏览其他人的照片。
And then click through other people's photos.
基本上是这样。
Basically.
然后那个周末我测试了一下。
And then I tested it that weekend.
我只是在玩它。
I was just playing with it.
我爸爸进来了，什么，什么
My dad came in What what do
你所说的测试是指什么？
mean by you tested it?
我在看这个。
What are I was just looking at it.
他给我发了个链接。
He's he sent me a link.
我好几天没看。
I didn't look at it for a couple days.
然后过了几天，我在家过周末的时候就开始看了。
Then I started looking at it a couple days later when I was at home on the weekend.
我爸站在我身后看。
My dad was looking over my shoulder.
他有点儿走进房间。
He kinda walks in the room.
他问我：嘿，你在干嘛？
He's like, yo, what are you doing?
你知道的？
You know?
而且我当时本该在工作，或者实际上，到那时候我本该明白的。
And like, I was supposed to be, like, working and or actually, this by this point, I should know.
我已经辞掉了工作。
I had quit my job.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
所以我当时失业了。
So I was unemployed.
所以现在我想起来了。
So I now I remember.
我当时本该在找工作，大概吧。
I was I was supposed to be looking for a job, probably.
于是我撒谎说，哦，这只是吉姆在搞的东西。
So I lied and said, ah, this is just something Jim's doing.
对吧？
Right?
于是他，我爸爸就开始玩这个，然后我看到了他。
And so he he my dad just starts playing with it and then I see him.
他是我第一个看到沉迷于滑动评分界面的人。
He's the first person I ever saw get addicted to rating Swipe screen.
女孩们。
Girls.
你知道的，点击、点击、点击，就是
You know, click click click which is
热或不热。
Hot or not.
滑动、滑动、滑动。
Swipe swipe swipe.
对。
Yeah.
我们当时只是把我在Excite个人广告上拍的照片，像这样放了上去。
And we just had, like, I had just taken photos from excite personals to, like, seat it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他当时说，哦，她很火辣。
And so he was like, oh, she's hot.
她呢，哦，你知道，我当时想，天啊。
She's like, oh, you know, I'm like, my god.
这可是我老爸。
Like, this is my dad.
他是个六十岁的亚裔工程师，本来不该有性欲的，但你知道，他这辈子只有过三次性生活。
He's like 60 year old Asian engineer who's supposed to be sexual except, you know, the three times he had sex
对。
Right.
那三次还是你妈，你知道的，纯属奇迹受孕。
With my Which was, you know, immaculate conception.
没错。
Exactly.
嗯。
Yeah.
实际上。
Practically.
所以我当时想，天哪。
So I was like, holy crap.
这还挺有意思的。
Like, this is pretty interesting.
所以我们就在那周的星期一左右上线了，我记得。
So then we launched it like couple days like that Monday, I remember.
星期一或星期二。
Monday or Tuesday.
我觉得是星期一。
I think it was Monday.
我们就通过发邮件的方式上线了，我发了一封邮件。
And I just we launched it by sending it I sent an email.
我把我和吉姆的信息放到了网站上，然后把我们照片的链接发给了很多朋友。
I put myself and Jim on the site and then I sent a link to our pictures and sent it to a bunch of our friends.
我记得当时是42个人，后来我数过，因为42是个神奇的数字。
And it was like I remember it like it was 42 people which I counted it later, you know, because 42 is a magic number.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
但不管怎样，我发出去之后，它马上就火了。
But anyway, so I sent it out and like, it just immediately took off.
我记得那天下午两点左右，到当天结束时，我们的日志里已经有三万多个独立IP地址了。
And I think by the end that was at 02:00 in the afternoon and by the end of the day, we had had like 30 something thousand IP addresses in our logs.
独特的，哇。
Distinct Wow.
独一无二。
Unique.
所以那时候，很多人可能通过代理访问，比如AOL和各种拨号上网都用代理。
And so that's probably, you know, back then, a lot of people went through proxies or like AOL and a lot of these dial ups used proxies.
所以实际人数可能有十万甚至更多。
So it's probably like, you know, a 100,000 people or more.
我们当时简直惊呆了。
And we're like, holy shit.
对吧？
Right?
这简直太疯狂了。
Like that's that was crazy.
所以人们只是在互相转发吗？
So people were just sending it to their friends?
是的。
Yeah.
人们只是在转发，不到一小时，我们就收到了大约二十到三十份投稿。
People were just sending it to and like within an hour, we had, you know, had like 20 or 30 submissions.
于是我心想，哦，好吧。
And so I was like, oh, okay.
我们现在可以去掉那些假照片了，因为之前之所以这么慢，是因为它运行在一台机器上。
We can take off the fake photos now because like, you know, that was because most it was so slow because it was running on that one machine.
我觉得，你投完票后，页面会跳转到下一页，显示那个人的得分，然后展示另一个人让你评分。
I think like one like, after you voted, it would it would take you to the next page view where it would tell you the score of that person and then show you someone else to rate.
那个页面的周转时间大约是二十秒。
And that that the turnover of that page was about twenty seconds.
人们一边做着，一边点击离开，去别的浏览器窗口做别的事，然后再回来。
Like, people were doing it and, like, clicking away to, like, go into their other browser window doing whatever and then coming back.
但人们真的太惊人了。
But people it's it's amazing.
人们就是一直在做这件事。
Like, people were just doing it.
所以我们当时说：天哪。
And so we're like, holy shit.
这太疯狂了。
Like, this is nuts.
它一下子就爆火了。
Like, it just took off like crazy.
到了周末，我想我们每天已经有几百万的页面浏览量了。
And so by the end of the week, I think we were doing like couple million page views a day.
这些都还是在笔记本电脑上运行的吗？
And this is all still running on the laptop or
到这个时候？不。
at this point No.
我稍后会讲到这个。
Starts I'll get to that.
但没错。
But yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
像有很多疯狂的故事，讲我们是怎么扩展的。
Like, there was there are all these crazy stories about how we scaled it.
但后来它每天的访问量达到了两百万，不到两个月，我们就上了《人物》杂志。
But like, it got to 2,000,000 a day and then like within two months, like, we were in People Magazine.
我想在那时，我们是全网流量前二十的网站之一。
I think like we were one of the top 20 most trafficked websites on the web at that time.
你有你的土耳其
You had your Turkish
小哥。
stud.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们打败了那个土耳其小哥。
We had we beat the Turkish stud.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，有趣的是
You know, the funny the funny thing
他有他的
He has US his
屏幕保护程序。
screen saver.
最有趣的是，那个土耳其小子走红是因为他最初登上舞台是因为沙龙网（Salon.com）上有一位女性。
You know what the funniest thing about that is that it turns out that the Turkish stud got popular because he first hit the scene because there was this woman at salon.com.
当时沙龙是一个相当流行的在线杂志。
Salon was like an online magazine back then that was pretty popular.
有一位名叫珍妮尔·布朗的女作家写了关于这个土耳其小子的文章。
And there's this woman who was a writer named Janelle Brown and she wrote about the Turkish stud.
她真正让这个土耳其小子火了起来，因为我觉得正是通过她，伊图尔和其他人才知道了他们。
She made the Turkish stud happen really because I I think that's how Itur and everyone else found out about them.
我朋友给我打了电话。
Well, my friend was called me up.
他说：‘我们刚运行那天，他跟我说：嘿，我有个在Salon.com工作的朋友叫珍妮尔。',
He's like, the first day that we were running it, he's like, hey, I got a friend who works at salon.com named Janelle.
你能和她聊聊吗？
Can you talk to her?
我说：好吧。
I'm like, okay.
你知道，我们会和她聊，但我们必须保持匿名。
You know, like, we'll talk to her but like, we have to remain anonymous.
因为我们不知道会不会因此惹上麻烦，或者有人会对此感到冒犯之类的。
Because we didn't know if we were gonna, like, get in trouble for or, you know, like, people are gonna be offended by this or whatever.
于是他说：好的。
And so he's, okay.
她说她会匿名和你谈。
She said she'll talk to you anonymously.
然后我就和这个叫珍妮尔的女士交谈，她在采访我的同时，还在浏览网站。
And then so I did I was talking to this woman, Janelle, and she was interviewing me and she's clicking on the site while she's doing it.
然后她说，当时我们网站上的照片不多，所以她点到了我的照片。
And then she's like and we didn't have that many photos on the site at time, so she hit mine.
但她根本不可能知道那是我。
But there's no way for her to know that.
但她却说：等等。
But she's like, wait a minute.
这是詹姆斯·洪吗？
Is this James Honk?
我回答：是的。
I'm like, yeah.
那她是怎么把这两件事联系起来的？
So how did she put two and two together?
她是怎么想到的
How did she put
因为珍妮尔·布朗是我上大学时遇到的第一个人。
a Because Janelle Brown was the very first person I met in college.
她的宿舍门正对着我的宿舍门，哦。
She her door literally faced my door in the dorms Oh.
在伯克利。
At Berkeley.
于是我跟她说，詹姆斯，我是珍妮尔·布朗。
So I was like she's like, James, it's Janelle Brown.
我当时只知道她的朋友叫珍妮尔。
I was like, whole because at that point, just knew her his friend Janelle.
对吧？
Right?
于是我心想，天哪。
So I was like, oh my god.
珍妮尔，求你了，别告诉任何人我在做这个。
Like, Janelle, like, please don't tell anyone I'm doing this.
她就说，好吧。
Like so she's like, okay.
好吧。
Okay.
没问题。
No problem.
我知道，我说过你会匿名，我会尊重这一点。
I, you know, I said you I you'd be anonymous and I'll respect that.
对吧？
Right?
哇。
Wow.
所以她真的做到了。
So so she did.
但实际上，第一天交通变得太糟糕了，我给她打电话说：嘿，Janelle，别，是的。
Actually but the traffic actually got so bad that first day that I called her saying, hey, Janelle, like Don't Yes.
我那时候说，你能不能别运行了，因为你还记得吗，我们当时在一台服务器上运行，那时候托管照片的带宽费用是一千美元每兆比特每秒。
Run I was like, can you please not run it because like, remember, like, we were running on a server that was at a time when we were hosting the photos and it was a thousand dollars a megabit per second.
所以我心想，到了那天结束或者什么时候，我意识到，天啊，这玩意儿每月的运行成本得有五万美元，而且每几个小时就翻一倍。
So I figured like, the end of that day or whatever, I was like, man, this thing's gonna cost like, the run rate was like, you know, $50,000 a month and it was doubling every, like, whatever hours.
关于带宽计费的窍门，现在没人知道了，因为大家都用AWS，按吞吐量收费。
And and and so the the trick with bandwidth pricing, like, no one knows this anymore because everyone just goes to AWS and gets charged on throughput.
但以前呢，当你为带宽付费时，大多数运营商都会按你使用量的第九十五百分位来计费，这意味着你有5%的时间可以突然飙升到无限，也不会有问题。
But back in the day, like, when you when you pay for bandwidth, most carriers will give you will bill you at the ninety fifth percentile of your usage, which means you have 5% of you can spike to infinity and you're fine.
对吧？
Right?
所以这基本上相当于三十天里的一天半时间。
So that basically is a day and a half on the you know, in thirty days.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们实际上有一天半的时间可以尽情使用四万美元的带宽，但当我们快用完这天半时，我们都惊呆了。
So we had basically a day and a half of 40,000 to do as much as we want, but we were approaching that day and a half and we're like, holy shit.
这一个月就要四万美元了，或者类似的价格。
This is gonna be $40,000 a month or whatever.
我们当时真的差点就关掉了
Like, we were actually, we almost shut it
关掉。
down.
是啊。
Yeah.
于是我告诉了珍妮尔，我问她：你能不能别运行这个？
And so I I told Janelle, I'm like I asked Janelle, like, can you not run this?
她说：我真想帮你，但今天新闻太冷了。
She's like, I would love to help you, but it's a slow news day.
所以现在我明白了记者是怎么工作的，他们每天必须产出内容，于是我就想：天哪。
So she, you know, like, now I understand how journalists work, you know, like she you know, they're on a daily, like they gotta put out something every day or And so I was like, oh, shit.
所以我们当晚的解决方案是把它迁移到伯克利，因为我说过，我的合伙人是伯克利的研究生。
So our solution was to that night, we moved it to Berkeley because, like I said, my partner was a grad student at Berkeley.
对。
Right.
他，就是大学的研究。
He, like the university research.
我记得我们凌晨三点开车去了伯克利。
I remember we drove to Berkeley at, like, three in the morning.
我们去了他的研究生办公室，把箱子 setup 好了。
And we went to his grad student office and we set up the box.
我们把它藏在了他的桌子底下。
We, you know, hid it under his desk.
我们在箱子前面堆了书。
We stacked books in front of the box.
就像只有一根线从他桌子底下伸出来。
Like, it was just like this lone wire coming out from under his desk.
这花的是大学的钱
That's costing the university
那玩意儿要花大学五万美元，而且还在翻倍。
That was 50,000 a gonna cost the university and doubling.
就像我说的，它差不多每四个小时就翻一番。
Like like I said, it was it was doubling, like, every, like, four hours.
我们关掉了几个小时，或者类似的时间。
We turned it off for a couple hours or whatever.
对吧？
Right?
总之，我记得那是在早上五点半左右。
Anyway, so I remember we that was at, like, 05:30 in the morning.
我们终于把它重新启动了。
We got it finally back up.
然后我们就开车回家，直接睡过去了。
And then we, like, drove home and, like, crashed.
后来吉姆在九点左右接到他导师的电话。
And then Jim got, like, a call from his adviser at, like, nine or something.
显然，伯克利的IT人员看到日志时，差点把咖啡喷出来，那些敲击管理工具和线路追踪记录太吓人了。
Apparently, like, IT guy at Berkeley, like, spit his coffee out when he saw the logs or whatever the the, you know, the knock management tools and followed the wire.
肯定是顺着线路追踪过去的。
Must have followed the wire.
他当时心想：这到底是什么鬼东西？
Was like, what the hell is this?
幸运的是，他没有把机器关掉。
Luckily, he didn't turn the box off.
你知道吗，我记得我们用了一整盒图钉，拿了一半盖在电源开关上，然后用胶带封住了。
You know, actually, I remember we taped I took, like, a box of thumbtacks and took half the box and put it over the power switch and taped it.
所以，也许这给了他们一个信号，别关掉这台机器。
So, like, maybe that was a signal to them not to turn this box off.
但不管怎样，幸运的是，吉姆的导师是伯克利工程学院的院长，同时也是Cadence和Synopsys的联合创始人之一。
But anyway, luckily, Jim's adviser was a he was the dean of engineering at Berkeley and he was also one of the cofounders of, like, Cadence and Synopsys.
他简直就是这些技术的奠基人。
He was like a father of that.
他还是梅菲尔德的风险合伙人。
And he was also a venture partner at Mayfield.
风险合伙人。
Venture Partners.
所以他是个非常有创业精神的人。
So he was like a very entrepreneurial guy.
对吧？
Right?
所以他就说，好吧。
And so he's like, okay.
这根本不是个问题。
This wasn't a problem.
这其实是个机会。
This was an opportunity there.
以他的远见，他意识到这是一件了不起的事。
He well, in his wisdom, he saw this is an amazing thing.
他就像说，好吧。
He's like, okay.
听着，我可以给你几天时间，但你得想出个办法来。
Look, I will buy you a couple days, like, but you gotta you gotta figure something out.
嗯。
Yep.
于是我们就这么做了。
And so we did.
所以我们最终联系了Rackspace，当时它还是一个很小、很不起眼的公司。
So we ended up calling Rackspace, which at that time was a rinky dink, very small company still relatively.
但那时他们是托管服务领域的领导者。
But they were the leaders in managed hosting at the time.
我恰好知道，我看了他们的关于我们页面，发现他们的业务发展副总裁和一个叫乔什·贝克尔的人差不多同时在斯坦福法学院读书。
And I just happened to know, you know, I looked at their About Us page and their VP of Biz Dev went to Stanford Law School around the same time as a guy named Josh Becker went to law school at Stanford.
于是乔什把我介绍给了他，然后我就说：嘿，听着，我们没钱，但我觉得我们特别适合你们，因为你们的核心理念就是不需要预付资金。
So Josh put me in touch with him and then I was like, hey, listen, you know, like, we don't have any money but I think we're a good poster child for you guys because that's their whole stick is like, don't have to have money upfront.
对。
Right.
你可以让他们今天就帮你扩容，因为他们已经有现成的机器了。
You can they can scale you up today because they have machines ready to go.
你知道，因为那时候，如果你想要买机器，即使我们有钱，也需要花时间。
You know, like because back then, if you wanted to buy machines, even if we had the money, it would take Time.
一个月，对。
A month Right.
去拿到机器，然后安装、配置等等所有这些事情。
To get the machines and to wrap and them all that kind of stuff.
所以你说这个
So So you said this
是花钱最值的营销方式，这
is the best marketing money This
太完美了。
is perfect.
所以他们说，好吧。
So they're like, okay.
把Rackspace的标志放在首屏上方。
Put a logo of Rackspace above the fold.
我们喜欢你们所做的事情。
We love what you're doing.
我们喜欢你们的增长。
We love the growth.
我基本上说，我收到了大量关于媒体采访的咨询。
And I and I basically said, look, I'm getting a ton of inbound inquiries about press.
我会在任何我能提到的地方提到你们。
Like, I will mention you guys everywhere I can.
嗯。
Mhmm.
于是他们说，太完美了。
And so they're like, perfect.
我们干吧。
Let's do it.
而且说实话，我们根本不知道最终会用多少台机器，但他们根本不关心。
And to the I mean, they didn't even we didn't even know how big how many machines we were gonna end up taking and they didn't care.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们说：你看，只要你们需要新机器，就告诉我们。
They're like, look, just when you need new machines, tell us.
我们每天晚上都会打电话给他们，说需要更多机器。
And we end up calling them every night saying we need more machines.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
他们说：好的，就这么办。
And they were like, yes, let's do it.
当时我们根本还没谈妥条款。
Like, then in we're like, we hadn't even worked out the terms.
当前的协议。
The current deal.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那时候连任何文件都没签。
Like, there was no paperwork at this point.
事情就只是……
Things just
嗯，有时候事情进展得太快了，
like well, sometimes things move too Well,
对。
yeah.
这就是当年网页的真实样子。
And this is how the web really was back in the day.
当时大家都互相帮助，你知道的，我觉得eBay托管了Yahoo，或者可能是反过来。
Like, everyone just kind of helped each other, you know, like, know, I think eBay hosted Yahoo or maybe it's the other way around.
但不管怎样，也许是Netscape托管了eBay。
But anyway, you know, or maybe it's Netscape hosted eBay.
总之，大家以前总是互相帮助。
Anyway, everyone used to help everyone.
所以，是的。
And so yeah.
所以他们说，是的。
So they're like, yeah.
别担心这个。
Don't worry about it.
只要先做大做强，以后再慢慢解决。
Like, just get big and then we'll figure it out later.
我们就是这么做的。
That's what we did.
所以它不断增长，当时流量峰值达到了多少？
And and so it grew and grew and What did the traffic get to kind of at its peak?
天啊。
Gosh.
让我想想，那已经是很久以前的事了。
Let me I'm it's it's been so long ago.
我想我们每天大概有1500万到1500万次页面浏览。
Like, I think we were doing about maybe like 15,000,000 10 to 15,000,000 page views a day.
你得记住，那时候的时间。
And you have to remember like Time.
今天看来，这可能不算太大。
Today, like, might not seem as big.
但当时，由于没有社交媒体，事物很难像现在这样快速增长。
But at the time, it was it was hard for things to grow as fast as they do because there was no social media.
所以当时东西流传开来，都是靠电子邮件，你知道的，不像现在点一下按钮那么简单，嗯。
So like when things got passed around, they were passed around by email or, you know, it wasn't as easy as just clicking a button Mhmm.
而任何减少摩擦的做法，都能让任何系统的流动性提升十倍左右。
Which, you know, and, you know, any bit of friction reduction can increase the liquidity of any system by like 10 x.
对吧？
Right?
所以那时候，东西根本不可能增长得那么快。
So like, things did just did not grow that fast back then.
而今天，简直可能会疯狂到不行。
And it just I mean, like, today, like, it would have probably been like insane.
不管怎样，以那个年代的标准来看，这已经够疯狂了。
Anyway, it was insane by those days standards.
就像我说的，大概两个月内，内德·尼尔森或者谁，就说我们比ESPN还大了，你知道的。
And like I said, in within two months, I think, Ned Nielsen or whatever had us as like we were bigger than ESPN, you know.
而当时就只是两个小伙子，穿着内衣，坐在客厅里，敲着代码，对吧，或者类似的情况。
And it was just like two guys, like, in their underwear, like, in their living room, like, coding, right, or whatever.
对，没错。
And yeah.
所以不管怎样，我们和他们达成了协议，但当我们最终算清楚数字时，他们说：好吧，你们可以有一年。
So anyway, we cut that deal with them and but we still had the problem of, like, they gave us when we finally worked out the numbers, they're like, okay, you can have a year.
他们给了我们半年的免费托管，然后是四分之一时间五折，再四分之一时间七五折，之后在这一年结束时，我们就得开始付费了。
They gave us a half a year of free hosting and then a quarter of like 50% off and then a quarter of 25% off and then we and then in the year, we would have to start paying.
但这已经非常慷慨了。
So but that was more than generous.
对吧？
Right?
这简直太棒了。
That was just amazing.
但那时我们心里清楚，我们已经做出了我们的土耳其烤肉。
But we did know that like and and and at that point in time, like, we're like, okay, we made our Turkish stud.
我们希望这件事能继续下去，但吉姆得回去写他的论文，而我也得回去找工作之类的。
We want this thing to keep going, but Jim needed to get back to his dissertation and I needed to go back to finding a job or whatever.
我们当时觉得这根本没什么商业模型。
We didn't think that there was any business model in this.
事实上，网站刚上线时我们就放了广告。
In fact, we stuck ads on the site when it first started.
我记得那时候我们还在用二十四七媒体之类的广告网络，那在当时是个挺大的平台。
I I remember we were going through like twenty four seven media or something like some some ad network back in the day that was pretty big.
那时候的CPM是0.25美分，也就是说每千次页面浏览我们只能赚0.25美分。
The CPM at that time was 0.25¢ CPM, which means for every thousand page views, we got 0.25¢.
对。
Right.
你知道吗，现在都已经是美元级别了。
You know, today, it's like dollars.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
所以这根本不够。
And so it basically wasn't enough.
barely 够用。
It was barely enough.
根本连什么都覆盖不了。
Like, it wasn't gonna cover anything.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们还得想办法让这个东西撑下去。
So we still needed to figure out how to like make this thing last.
所以我们做的第一件事就是停止托管照片，转而让用户发送Yahoo上的照片链接，让Yahoo来承担费用。
So the first thing we did was that's when we stopped hosting photos and we started sending people to Yahoo and saying, hey, just send us a URL of the photo on Yahoo and let Yahoo basically pay for this.
对吧？
Right?
那账单减少了多少？
And cut the bill by what?
我的意思是，这几乎把账单全砍掉了。
Well, I mean, that that killed almost all of the bill.
没错。
Yep.
现在，我们只需要支付机器的费用。
Now, we just have to pay for the machines.
但基本上，所有成本都来自那五万美元的翻倍支出，那都是图片的带宽费用。
But basically, all of the cost was basically all of that 50,000 in doubling was bandwidth for the pictures.
对吧？
Right?
有趣的是，在我们这么做的一个月或两个月后，雅虎关闭了所有允许他人托管图片的功能。
And, you know, the funny thing is a month or two after we did that, Yahoo shut off all ability for anyone to host to to use pictures that were hosted by them.
但不知怎么的，我们被列为了白名单。
But somehow, we got white listed.
两年后，我在伯克利演讲时，遇到了一位在GeoCities工作的人。
And and and, like, two years later, I was speaking at Berkeley and I I met a guy who worked on on GeoCities.
他是你内心的天使吗？
He was your angel inside?
是的。
Yeah.
基本上是。
Basically.
我当时就说：嘿，听着。
And I was like, hey, listen.
我不想太挑剔，毕竟这是送上门的好处。
I don't wanna, you know, look a gift horse in the mouth.
我有点不敢问，但你为什么愿意为我们做这些？
I'm nervous to ask you, but why why are you doing this for us?
我们当时是，他们就说：哦，对啊。
Like, we were and they're like, oh, yeah.
你知道的，我们很喜欢Hot or Not。
You know, like, we love Hot or Not.
我们只是不想成为那个毁掉它的人。
We just didn't wanna be the guys who killed it.
所以，正如我所说，以前人们都会互相帮助。
So, like I said, people used to help people out.
那真的很棒。
It was really cool.
但不管怎样，我们知道必须摆脱他们。
And but anyway, we knew we had to get off of them.
所以我们做的第一件事就是和Ofoto达成了协议。
So the first thing we did was we cut a deal with Ofoto.
你知道，当时人们开始使用数码相机，他们愿意支付奖励，每有一个使用数码相机的用户就给一美元。
You know, people were starting to get digital cameras at the time, and they were willing to pay a bounty, you know, a dollar for every user that has a digital camera.
所以我们说，如果你没有数码相机——当时大多数人没有——就去GeoCities，雅虎会免费为你托管。
So what we did is we said, hey, if you don't have a digital camera, which most people at the time didn't, go to GeoCities and Yahoo will host it for free.
但如果你有数码相机，请去Ofoto，他们会给我们一美元。
But if you have a digital camera, please go to Ofoto and they would pay us a dollar, basically.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们甚至提前付了我们25美元。
And they even paid us $25 upfront.
再次，纯粹是为了帮我们。
Again, really just to help us out.
你知道，我认识一个叫米奇·布朗的人，他在那里做业务拓展。
You know, there's there's a guy I knew named Mitch Brown who worked there who did BD.
当时，公司由一位叫詹姆斯·霍acin的人领导，他是Aphoto的CEO。
And at the time, the company was run by this guy James Joaquin who he was CEO of Aphoto.
他现在和埃文·威廉姆斯一起经营Obvious Ventures。
He's now running Obvious Ventures with Evan Williams.
总之，泽民、詹姆斯，都是很棒的人。
Anyways, Zemin, James, awesome people.
詹姆斯也很喜欢。
James loved it too.
所以他们纯粹是出于好意帮我们。
So they were really just doing it as a favor to help us out.
他们其实并不了解我们。
They didn't they didn't really know us.
对吧？
Right?
但那时候的互联网就是这样。
But that's how the web was.
那后来它变成一项生意了吗？
And so did it ever become a business?
或者，是的。
Or Yeah.
那最后发生了什么？
So what ended up happening?
所以我们意识到必须赚钱，因为我们得雇个人来运营这个项目，显然我们自己没法一直干下去。
So we realized it had to make money because we needed to hire somebody to run the thing because clearly, like, we weren't gonna run it.
我们本来打算回去找份正经工作，或者回去帮他完成吉姆的博士学业。
We were gonna go back to getting a real job or going back to finishing his Jim's PhD.
但你知道，广告开始慢慢出现，广告的收入也逐渐增加了。
And so but, you know, like, the ads were started you know, slowly, the ads started making more money.
但这些钱还不足以支付账单。
It wasn't enough to pay for the bills.
所以我们增加了交友功能。
That's why we added the dating side of it.
我们是第一个提出所谓双重确认交友概念的人。
So we were the first ones to do, like, the concept of what you call double opt in dating.
比如，如果你表示对某人感兴趣，对方也可以表示对你感兴趣。
Like, if you if you say you're interested in someone, then they can say they're interested in you too.
你知道，就像今天的Tinder有滑动功能，据我所知，我们发明了JavaScript自动提交的单选按钮。
You know, like, what Tinder is today, they have swipe we invented the, to my knowledge, we invented the JavaScript auto submit radio button.
因为那时候，你还记得吗？每次点击按钮都得手动提交。
Because back then, you remember, you had to hit submit every time you clicked a button.
所以Hotter Not是第一个这样做的。
So Hotter Not was the first one that yeah.
当时需要两步点击。
It was two clicks.
所以我们把它改成了一步点击。
So we made it one click.
我们以前从没见过，所以觉得是我们发明的。
We'd never seen it before, so we think we invented it.
但你也说不准。
But you never know.
可能别人早就这么做了。
Someone probably did it.
但我们得自己想办法实现它。
But, like but we had to figure out how to do it on our own.
但这太棒了，因为现在不会再被拒绝了。
And But that's amazing because now there's no rejection.
就像是，如果我们连接了，那是因为我们俩都对。
It's like, if we if we got connected, it's because we both Right.
我们认为是对的。
We think Right.
彼此都很吸引人。
Each other are hot.
对。
Right.
因为我们的整个理念就是，你拥有一个高度流动的市场。
The because our whole thing was you you have a highly liquid marketplace.
没有拒绝，因为你根本记不住所有你同意过的人。
There is no rejection because you don't even remember everyone you said yes to.
对。
Right.
另一点是，它保护了女性，你知道，因为我们看到匹配网之类的平台，那些男人本质上就是皮条客。
And the other thing that it did was it protected the woman who, like, you know, like because basically, we saw match.com and all these guys is basically pimps.
对吧？
Right?
比如，看我这些，你知道的，这些女人或者男人，你可能觉得他们很吸引人，哦，你想和他聊聊？
Like, oh, look at my look at my, you know, all these, you know, women or men that you you might think they're hot, like, oh, you wanna talk to him?
你知道的，哦，你得给我二十美元。
You know, like, oh, you gotta give me $20.
你得付钱。
You gotta pay.
对吧？
Right?
而这样做的结果是，导致很多男人付费并给女人发大量消息，但女人只是看看他们的照片，然后说‘不’。
Like and and what that did is that that what that end up doing is, like, that led to lots of men paying and flooding women with messages and were, like, the woman just look at their photo and go, no.
然后那个男人就被骗了，而女人呢，得到了信号，但信号与噪音的比例太低了，所以我们觉得这简直太低效了。
And then that guy just, like, got basically ripped off and and the woman got, you know, the signal And to signal to noise was too low for the so we thought that was just kind of an inefficient thing.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们觉得，这基本上就像速配。
And so we thought, you know, doing it basically, it was speed dating.
嗯。
Mhmm.
把速配搬到线上是一个好主意。
And doing it as speed dating bringing speed dating online was a good idea.
于是我们就这么做了。
And so that's what we did.
我们真的启用了这个功能。
And that actually so we turned that on.
我们开始对此收费。
We turned on charging for it.
它的运作方式是：匹配后，双方中必须有一方是付费会员。
So the way it worked was, like, one of the two people, once you matched, had to be a paid member.
这就相当于，一个男人在酒吧里对一个女人微笑。
So it was equivalent of look, you you a guy smiles at a girl in a bar.
她微笑着回应。
She smiles back.
归根结底，总得有人请喝酒。
At the end of the day, someone's gotta buy drinks.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
而且通常不是女孩付钱。
And it's usually not the girl.
所以，这就是我们的付费模式。
But so and that's that's how we had a payment model.
所以，一旦我们上线这个功能，我想大概一个月内，到年底时，我们的年收入就已经达到了五十万美元，这足以让我们雇人并支付相关费用之类的。
So all of a sudden, like, as soon as we turn that on, I think it was like, within a month, it was like, by the end of the year, we were at, like, a half $1,000,000 run rate, which was enough to, like, hire someone and pay the cost or whatever.
我的意思是，那时候成本其实为零，因为我们有免费的托管服务之类的。
I mean, like, actually, at that point, the cost was zero because we had the free hosting or whatever.
对。
Right.
但即使，你知道，如果你能找到任何能转化哪怕一小部分用户的模式，我认为我们当时实际上有5%的用户是付费的，包括女性。
But even, you know, if you have any if you can find any model that can convert even a small percentage of I think we were converting actually, we were converting, like, 5% of our users were paid, including the woman.
到后来，我们将其优化到了20%的注册用户付费。
And then by the end of it, we had optimized it to, like, 20% of people who joined paid.
对吧？
Right?
太棒了。
Awesome.
这已经足够支付所有开销了。
It was enough to pay for everything.
然后，你知道，这其实并不重要。
And then, you know, if it doesn't matter.
如果你有规模，只要你能有任何一种能赚到足够钱的模式，只要你运营精简，你绝对可以支付薪水，过上一种生活方式型生意。
If you have scale, if you can even have any model that makes enough money, if you are a lean operation, you can definitely pay your salaries and have like a lifestyle business if you want.
对吧？
Right?
那就是我们当时的情况。
And so that's what we had.
基本上，我们一开始是五十万，然后就这样自然地持续增长了。
Basically, we were doing half 1,000,000 and and then just kept growing, like, organically.
到了那时，我们基本上就像是现代版的开洗衣房的人。
And so all we had to do at that point, we were basically, like, we were the modern day equivalent of people who ran a laundromat.
就像，我们只需要让这些机器持续运转，还要安装新机器来支持增长，你知道的，我们只需要不断收硬币就行了。
Like, we just have to keep these machines running and, you know, we have to install new machines to support and, know, like, we have to like but we're just collecting quarters.
没错。
And yeah.
所以我们其实是偶然发现的，不像听起来那么有计划性。
So that so we kind of stumbled upon it wasn't, you know, like it sounds much more intentional than it was.
我们只是无意中进入了一个非常赚钱的生意。
It was like, we kind of stumbled into having a very profitable business.
然后你们决定在某个时候卖掉公司吗？
And then you decide to sell the company at some point?
嗯，是的。
Well, yeah.
我们经营了八年。
So we ran it for eight years.
大概在第三年或第四年，我们终于开始雇人了。
Around year three or year four, we finally started we hired people.
所以我们前三年左右都是在家经营，就我们两个人。
So what happened is we ran it for three years or so out of the house, just the two of us.
那时，我们的年收入达到了三四百万。
And at that point, we were doing like 3 to 4,000,000 in revenue.
几乎全部都是利润。
Almost all of it was profit.
我的联合创始人开始骑摩托车了。
My co founder started riding motorcycles.
后来有一天，我想，嘿，如果他出了什么事，对Hot or Not可不太妙。
And at some point, was like, hey, you know, like, if you if something happens to you, that's probably not good for Hot or Not.
而且说实话，他累了，我也累了。
You know, like and and also, like, frankly, he was tired and I was tired.
扫兴一下，但没有。
To be a buzz kill, but No.
我的意思是，那时候他负责运营，管理着大约一百台服务器。
I mean, like, when we were also, like, look, I mean, at that point, we were running, like he he was running ops on, like, a 100 machines.
他得经常跑去数据中心。
You know, he was having having to go to the data center all the time.
运营工作大概让他感到厌倦了。
The running the ops probably got tiresome.
他尽可能地自动化了流程，这样就不用总往数据中心跑。
He automated it as much as he could so he wouldn't have to go in that often.
但后来我们请了他的高中好友格雷格·林恩，还招了多恩·波拉克负责客户服务。
But at some point in time, we brought in a a friend of his from high school, Greg Lynn, and we brought in Don Polak who did customer service.
因为到那时，我已经在处理大量的客户服务邮件之类的事情了。
Because at that by that point, I was doing a lot of the customer service emails and stuff like that.
所以我们请她加入，这样一来，我们实际上就成立了一家公司。
And so we brought her in and so we basically had now a company.
我们有了员工。
We had employees.
然后我们开始招聘更多的人，越来越多的人。
And then we started hiring more people and more people.
没招太多，但我们又雇了几个新人。
Not that many, but we hired a few more people.
然后事情渐渐变得像我们有了责任一样。
And then it kind of became like we we had responsibility.
我们有了员工，必须得管理人，不管怎样，这总是要做的。
We had employees and we had to, you know, yet we always have to manage people to some degree.
但这并不是我们俩真正擅长的事情。
And that wasn't really either of our thing.
所以我们俩都对这件事感到疲惫了。
And so we both kind of flamed out on on it.
我们俩都不是特别擅长运营的人。
We're just not very operational people, either of us.
或者我不说我们不擅长运营，但这部分并不是我们喜欢的。
Or that's I wouldn't say we're not operational, but it's not the part we enjoy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们雇的人越多，这件事就越变成一种负担，没错。
And so the more people we hired, kind of like the more of a drag it became and yeah.
我们俩大概在第四年、第五年就都累了。
We both got tired probably year four, year five, I would say.
然后我休息了一下，吉姆接手了。
And then I took a break and Jim took over.
后来吉姆离开了，我又接手了。
And then Jim left and I took over.
然后在某个时候，我们干脆决定把这件事卖了。
And then at some point, we're just like, let's just we're just gonna sell this thing.
就在2008年金融危机之前。
It was right before the 2008 crash.
从这个角度来说，时机倒是不错，但因为我们正处于低谷期，可能卖得远低于它的实际价值。
So it was a good timing in that sense, but we probably let it go for a lot less than it was worth just because it was a downturn.
对。
Right.
因为那时它的年利润已经达到六百万美元。
Because at that point in time, it was doing 6,000,000 in earnings.
但坦白说，我们俩都对它感到无比厌倦。
But both of us, frankly, were so tired of it.
而且，你知道，我们的好朋友当时刚刚和YouTube的史蒂夫·陈一起创业，我们看着他们从零起步，短短几年内就做到了十六亿美元的估值。
And, you know, our good friends had just started Jim's really close with Steve Chen at the time from YouTube and we watched them go from zero to 1,600,000,000.0 in like how long?
你知道，大概就一年左右。
You know, like a year.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我们从未真正觉得 Hot or Not 能这么快达到那样的规模。
And we didn't really see Hot or Not getting to that scale that quickly ever.
坦白说，你看 Tinder 的发展，也许确实如此。
Arguably, you know, you see what happened with Tinder and maybe that's true.
不过不清楚 Hot or Not 是否会变成 Tinder，因为 Hot or Not 有评分功能，这推动了它的增长，但也阻碍了它成为纯粹的约会应用。
Although it's not clear Hot or Not would become Tinder because Hot or Not had the rating part which made it grow but could also hold it back from being pure play dating.
但无论如何，我们就是觉得，去他的，我们都只想做点别的事情。
But in in any case, we were just like, screw it, you know, like, we both just wanted to do anything else.
那时我离开后，就开始和 Al Lieb 一起做这个项目。
At that point, when I had left, I had started this thing with Al Lieb.
他是 Evite 的联合创始人，做了一个叫 Save My Ass 的服务，会定期但随机地给你女朋友或妻子送花。
He was a co founder of Evite called Save My Ass, which would send your girlfriend or wife flowers on a regular but semi random basis.
这是最早的订阅制服务之一，也是我见过的最早的订阅制商业模式之一。
It was one of the first subscription It one of the first subscription commerce things we'd ever I'd ever seen.
但后来我不得不回到Hot or Not，所以就停止了这个项目。
But then I had to go back to Hot or Not, so I stopped working on it.
Al创办了ClearSlide，而且成功了。
Al started ClearSlide which took off.
所以他不得不忙别的，所以我们最终关闭了这个项目，虽然它其实做得还不错，规模也还可以，但无论如何，我们俩都受不了了。
So he had to so we ended up shutting it down just because not it was actually doing decently well, like, scale was but anyway, we neither of us could deal with it.
所以，是的，我们最终卖掉了公司，主要是因为我们实在厌倦了。
So, yeah, we ended up selling the company mainly because we were just tired of it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们想做点别的事情。
We wanted something else to work on.
那么你是怎么再次做到的呢？因为你赚到第一笔钱的时候，基本上就是在你收集硬币的那段时期，就像你之前说的。
And so how did again, because you make your first mill and you made it basically during that while you're collecting quarters, like you said.
是的。
Yes.
你在经营洗衣店。
You're running the laundromat.
老兄，那真是一段很棒的时光，因为那时我还在二十多岁。
Dude, that was a awesome period of time because I was, like, I was still in my late twenties.
我们让系统在中午和午夜向我们发送统计数据。
We have the system sending us stats like at noon and at midnight.
这主要是为了让我们了解系统运行状况，比如是否出现问题，每小时有多少匹配成功，诸如此类，直到当时为止。
And that was mainly so we would know like how the system's doing if it if it had problems or not, you know, how many matches were made per hour, blah blah blah, or up to that point in time.
但系统还显示了当天到那时为止我们赚了多少钱。
But it also had how much money we had made up to the up to that time for that day.
所以在中午和午夜，我都会收到一条消息，说：‘今天你赚了1万美元，1.5万美元。’
And so at noon and at at midnight, I would basically get this thing saying, oh, today you made $10,000, $15,000.
在好日子，能赚到两万多美元。
On a good day, like 20 something thousand dollars.
然后我得把钱分一分，算出我该拿多少。
And and, you know, I would have to divvy it up and figure out my portion.
但我当时心想，天哪。
But I was like, holy shit.
这简直像魔法一样。
Like, is magic.
对啊。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
It's funny.
就像，我有一堆朋友一直都知道，因为 basically 我没什么事可做。
It's like, I had a bunch of my friends always knew, like, when we because basically, I had nothing to do.
我几乎每周五天都和朋友出去喝酒。
I was just going out drinking with my friends all the time, like, almost like five days a week.
到了午夜，我记得好像是我的朋友菲利普·卡普兰。
And at midnight, it would be like I remember like I think it was my friend Philip Kaplan.
我记得他问我：你请客吗？
I just remember him like, you buying?
嗯。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
因为他看到我半夜掏出手机。
Because like because because he saw me pull out my phone at midnight.
我说，我来买单。
I'm like, I'm buying.
嗯。
Yeah.
但挺搞笑的，因为那时候，没人能在网上赚钱。
But it's funny, like, yeah, back in those days, like, no one was making money on the web.
那会儿简直是黑暗时期。
This was like the like the dark period.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
我的意思是，我以前经常和菲利普出去喝酒。
I mean, I used to, like, go out and drink with Philip all the time.
埃文·威廉姆斯，你知道的，那时候他在做Blogger。
Evan Williams from you know, at that time, was doing Blogger.
他当时说，我认识埃文是因为我给他发了条消息，说嘿，他当时几乎要关闭Blogger了。
He was like, I you know, I met Evan because I'd sent him a message saying, hey, like, he was about to like practically shut down Blogger.
那时就他一个人在运营。
It was just him by himself at that point.
我当时想，嘿，你知道的，我们那时候已经有多余的带宽了。
And I was like, hey, you know, we we had all this excess bandwidth at this point.
所以我说，如果你需要免费的图片托管，我很乐意帮忙。
So I was like, if you want free, you know, photo hosting, happy to help you out.
对吧？
Right?
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