72分钟解读托尼·霍克的思维方式

哇，真的假的。

Oh, wow.

我觉得我最好的年份大概能赚到十万多美元吧，你知道，就是八十年代中后期那会儿。

I would say probably in in my best year was in the 100 thousands ish, you know, in the late eight mid eighties, late eighties.

那会儿差不多是律师级别的收入了。

That was that was like lawyer salaries sort of thing.

但我完全没有存钱为将来打算的想法。

And I had no vision of saving for the future.

所以我就带着所有朋友去度假，买最新款的车，然后换掉再买另一辆。

So I was, like, taking all my friends on vacation and buying the newest car and then flipping that one and buying another one.

不是转手赚钱那种。

Not flipping it.

我是说，车贬值了，然后又买新的，还去Sharper Image疯狂购物。

I mean, depreciation and then and then buying another one and and, you know, going on shopping sprees at Sharper Image.

你知道，我当时觉得自己年轻无敌，结果突然之间，一切都垮了。

And, you know, I I had the invincibility of youth on my side, and then all of a sudden, it went down.

我是说，举个例子吧，我当时从我的鞋子赞助商Airwalk那里每月能拿到大约1500美元。

I mean, I guess, I had to give you an example, I was making about $1,500 a month from my shoe sponsor, Airwalk.

他们差不多每个月都会给我打电话说，哦，你知道，我们真的得给你削减一点了。

They they would call me every month or so and say, oh, you know, we really gotta cut you down a little bit.

然后那笔钱就降到了1000。

So then that went to 1,000.

两个月后，又降到了500，最后在同一年内降到了300。

And then two months later, that went to 500, and eventually ended up at 300 within the same year time span.

在发生这些的时候，你是不是……

And as that's happening, are you

在发生这些的时候，我正努力还房贷。

As that's happening, I'm struggling to pay my mortgage.

我什么零工都接。

I'm taking every odd job I can.

我说的零工，就是，嗯，好吧。

And by that, I mean, well, okay.

所以这是1990年。

So this is this is 1990.

我20岁，正式来说已经太老了，不能当广告里的主打滑板选手了，因为他们觉得那只是小孩子的事。

I'm 20 officially too old to be a featured skateboarder, like, in commercials because they thought it was just a kid thing.

对。

Mhmm.

但是因为我的名字他们知道，所以我会被雇为好莱坞顾问。

But I would but because they knew my name, I would get hired as a Hollywood consultant.

哦，那挺好的。

Oh, that's good.

我记得有一次拍摄特别清楚。

So I would I mean, I remember this one shoot vividly.

他们让我建一个起跳坡道，这样滑手就能穿过他们想要的那个框架，然后他们打算在他滑过的时候撒亮片之类的东西。

I I they asked me to build a build a launch ramp so that the skater could go through the frame of this thing they wanted, and then they were gonna, I think, drop glitter or something down as he did it.

他们给了我500美元作为两天的工作报酬，还给了我100美元来建起跳坡道。

And so they gave me $500 for two days of work, and they gave me a $100 to build a launch ramp.

我在自家车道上搭了个起跳坡道。

I built a launch ramp in my driveway.

我借了辆卡车，开到好莱坞，在公园里按他们的要求把坡道摆好。

I borrowed someone's truck, drove it to Hollywood, set it up in this park, set it up exactly where they wanted.

然后他们说，好，你能先跳几次穿过那个框，让我们看看效果吗？

And then they said, okay, can you jump through the frame a couple times so we can see what it looks like?

好的。

Okay.

于是我就做了那个动作，后来那个更年轻的孩子也会做这个动作，他做了之后，我就把坡道开回家，还付了一次房贷。

So I do the trick that eventually this younger kid's gonna do, and he does it, and I drive the ramp home and pay my mortgage down once.

嘿。

Hey.

我们稍微休息一下。

Let's take a quick break.

你知道那种感觉吗？策略做完了，简报写好了，大家都对齐了，然后你发现还是得有人坐下来，真正去创作所有内容。

You know that feeling when strategy is done, the brief is written, everyone's aligned, and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content?

那个人通常就是你，而且明天就要交了。

That someone is usually you, and it's due tomorrow.

不过，HubSpot的Breeze助手可以帮上忙。

Well, the Breeze assistant from HubSpot can help.

它直接在HubSpot里面就能用。

It works right inside HubSpot.

你可以起草活动文案、博客文章、邮件，全都用你的品牌语气，全都基于你真实的客户数据。

You can draft campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice, all using your actual customer data.

所以你不仅仅是创作内容。

So you don't create just content.

你创作的是能带来转化的内容。

You create content that converts.

去hubspot.com看看吧，那是为成长型企业打造的智能客户平台。

Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

有个疯狂的故事，说你17岁就买了房子，然后你说，对，没错。

There's this crazy story where you bought a house when you were 17, and you're like, that Yeah.

我是说，那真的太疯狂了，因为你当时才高三，就已经有房子了。

I mean, that was insane because you were a senior in high school and had a house.

但更疯狂的是，你爸爸居然支持你这么做。

But what's crazier is that your father supported it.

我记得你说过，这甚至可能是他的主意，或者他当时说，

I think you said it was maybe even his idea, or he was like,

就是他出的主意。

It was his idea.

然后，不。

And then No.

就是他出的主意。

It was his idea.

而且我看到的是，

And what I he saw that

我当时花钱太大手大脚了。

I was careless with my income.

我连税都没存。

I wasn't saving for taxes either.

对，这正是我想问你爸的。

Well, and that's what I wanted to ask about your dad.

因为，像Shaan和我都是年轻父母，而且我觉得你爸，他创立了全国滑板协会。

Because, like, Shaan and I are young parents, and, like, I think your dad was like, he founded, like, the National Skateboard Association.

他鼓励你买房。

He encouraged you to get a house.

听起来他真是最支持孩子的爸爸了。

Like, sounds like the most supportive dad ever.

你从他那里学到了什么育儿方法，比如怎么鼓励孩子去做他们喜欢的事？

What have you learned anything about parenting from him on, like, how to, like, encourage your kids to do what they love?

哦，当然。

Oh, of course.

我是说，他就是支持孩子的典范，即使他们做的事不一定能成为职业，也要支持他们的热情。

I mean, the well, he was he was the shining example of of supporting your kids even though they're doing something that isn't necessarily going to be a career, but to support them in their passions.

我姐姐高中时是歌手，他就跟着帮忙，像是她的助理。

My older sister was a singer in high school, and he would would carry like, he was the roadie.

你知道，他是二战时期的海军飞行员，大萧条时期长大的孩子，童年很苦，全靠自己。

You know, he was he was a navy pilot from World War two, a child of the depression, had a really rough childhood of him on his own.

所以他有孩子后，就全身心投入，而且他花钱非常节省。

So he went all in when he had kids, and he was obviously very frugal with his money.

我妈妈得靠海军薪水养活四个孩子。

I mean, my mom had to raise four kids on a on a navy salary

对。

Uh-huh.

在他不在家的时候。

While he was away.

但是，是的，我学到的是，你得直接参与进去，试着去连接。

But, yeah, I learned I learned that, you know, you just jump in and and try to connect.

我是说，你知道，我的孩子们，他们都滑板，但各有各的兴趣。

I mean, you know, my kids, they they all skate, but they're all into different stuff.

而且，比如我女儿在剧院工作，我会带她去纽约，陪她看所有的演出。

And and, like, my my daughter is in the theater, and I would take her to New York and go to all the shows with her.

我其实不想去看百老汇的演出。

I I don't wanna go to Broadway shows.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

就是说，去纽约看百老汇并不是我的首选，但我想和她一起体验，想理解她的兴趣。

Like or that wasn't that wasn't something that was, like, my first choice going to New York, but but I wanna experience it with her, and I wanna understand it.

现在她在南加州大学学戏剧。

And now she's at USC studying theater.

所以就是那种感觉，而且我绝对是从我父亲那里学来的。

So it's it's that kind of thing, and and I definitely learned it by example from my father.

我17岁的时候，我父母家附近新建了一批联排别墅。

When I was 17, there was a new development of homes going up of duplexes near where my parents lived.

我爸爸说，我觉得你应该试着买一套这样的房子，我可以帮你担保，因为你还没满18岁。

And my dad said, I think that it would be a good idea to try to get one of these homes, and I can cosign for you because you're not 18.

我当时只听到，你要有自己的房子了。

And I mean, all I heard was, you're going to get your own place.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

其实跟财务未来没什么关系。

Like, it wasn't about it wasn't about the financial future.

更像是，天哪，我有地方开派对了。

It was more like, oh my god, I have a place to party.

而且，你想想，高中最后一年就有自己的房子。

And, you know, you're a senior in high school with your own place.

你现在可是大红人了。

You're the popular one now.

对。

Yeah.

没人会把你扔进垃圾桶了。不过，当你处于低谷的时候，你说你22岁，做各种零工只是为了还房贷。

Nobody's putting you in trash can and then so So when you were in this kind of the downslide of it though, said you're 22, you're doing these kind of odd jobs just to pay the mortgage.

我是说，你有没有想过这时候放弃？

I mean, did you consider quitting at this point?

你是不是就是那种，我也不知道，

Are you just like, I don't know.

你当时的心态是怎样的？

Was your mindset then?

你又是怎么跟自己说，才熬过那段日子的？

And what'd you tell yourself to get kinda through that period?

我从来没想过放弃滑板，因为我一开始就不是为了钱才滑的。

I well, I never considered quitting skating because I never started skating for money.

所以就算当时我得找份所谓正经工作，我也会挤出时间去滑。

So even if I had to find a quote real job at the time, I was gonna find time to skate.

那已经，你知道，那已经刻在我骨子里了。

That that was just, you know, that that was ingrained in me.

那是我，那是我心灵的宁静。

That was that was that was my zen.

那是我的逃避方式。

That was my my escape.

所以我告诉自己，你最好开始学点别的技能。

So what I told myself was you better start learning other skills.

我也确实这么做了。

And I did.

我学会了剪辑视频。

I I learned how to edit video.

我其实有一套挺简陋的视频编辑系统，但能做特效什么的。

I actually had a kind of primitive video editing system, but I could do video effects and stuff.

所以我也接了些零活干这个。

So I took some odd jobs doing that as well.

说来也巧，我居然给NEC TurboGrafx剪过广告，那会儿是个游戏机。

I actually ironically edited a commercial for NEC TurboGrafx, which was a video game system at the time.

对。

Mhmm.

因为我朋友在那儿工作，他说，嘿，托尼能以你付的十分之一的价钱搞定这个。

Because my friend worked for them and said, hey, Tony could do this for a tenth of the cost that you're gonna pay.

然后我就真的做了。

And I and I did it.

所以就是诸如此类的事情。

And so it was just stuff like that.

我就是想拼命赚钱，维持生计。

Like, I just was trying to hustle and and make ends meet.

而且，到那时候，我已经有孩子了。

And I mean, I by then, I had a child.

我知道我得养活她。

I knew I had to provide for her.

所以这逼得我不得不行动起来。

So it just forced me into gear.

但自始至终，我一直在滑冰。

But all along, I kept skating.

你有没有，我知道我一直在提这个，但除了你，还有一个人叫罗德尼·穆伦。

Have you ever, and I'm I know I'm harping on this, but there's there's you and then there's this guy named Rodney Mullen.

肖恩，你听说过罗德尼·穆伦这个名字吗？

Shaan, have you heard that name, Rodney Mullen?

没有。

No.

他是另一个，他和托尼都在滑板界的拉什莫尔山上，还有另外两个人，但肯定是他和托尼在滑板界的顶峰。

He's another he there's him and Tony are on the Mount Rushmore with two other guys, but it's definitely him and Tony on the Mount Rushmore of skating.

他就像托尼，但专攻平地滑板。

He's like Tony, but was for flat ground.

所以我觉得踢翻可能是他发明的，但他发明的东西远不止这些。

So he I think maybe the kickflip he invented, but he invented so many more things.

而且他有一个演讲，你可以看到，我觉得是在TED上。

And there's this, like, talk where he gives, and you could see it's I think it's on Ted.

你可以看到他有多痴迷，他谈到自己是在中西部某个地方长大的，到处都是平地。

And you could see how obsessed he is, where he talks about being I think he was raised in the Midwest somewhere with all flat ground.

而且他在佛罗里达。

And he Florida.

佛罗里达。

Florida.

抱歉。

Sorry.

他在佛罗里达的一个农场长大。

He he grew up on a farm in Florida.

而且他非常痴迷。

And he's, like, obsessed.

我知道那种感觉。

I know what it's like.

对。

Yeah.

这正是我想说的，你们俩非常相似，我一直对这种痴迷感到着迷，因为你在每个伟大的人身上都能看到这一点。

And that's what I was gonna like, you guys are very similar, and I'm always fascinated by this obsession and this like because you see it in everyone who's great.

你得同时具备天赋、运气，还有这种执着。

You have to have a combination of talent, luck, and this like obsession.

你有没有分析过这种性格类型，是什么让你或者像罗德尼这样的人如此执着，又和普通人有什么不同？

Have you ever like analyzed that personality type about what makes you or someone like Rodney tick and how it's different from the average person?

我没有。

I haven't.

别人倒是试过。

Other people have tried.

我能看出来。

I recognize it.

比如，我在年轻滑手身上看到过这种特质，我就知道，哦，他们一定能成。

Like, I've seen it in younger skaters where I know that, oh, they're going to make it.

但你是怎么判断的？

But what are the tells?

因为你又不是每天都跟他们在一起。

Because you're not there with them every day.

那你是怎么察觉到的？

So how do you pick up on that?

他们的欲望无法熄灭，而且他们会做出一些最疯狂的事情。

They can't quench their desire, and they do some of the craziest stuff.

他们会做最难的动作，而且脸上只有那种专注的神情，而不是快乐。

They do some of the hardest things, and they just have this look of intensity, not joy.

看起来并不快乐。

It doesn't look joyous.

就是这样。

That's what it is.

你知道，罗德尼，他创造了平地豚跳。

You know, Rodney, like, he created the flat ground ollie.

他创造了尖翻、三百六十度翻板，还有那个“不可能”动作。

He created the kickflip, the three sixty flip, the the impossible.

他做完一个，就马上投入到下一个。

And he did it, and he was on to the next one.

你提到那种不快乐的感觉，真有意思，因为你看起来是个非常开心、友善的人。

It's so funny you're talking about that not feeling joy because you you're like a a very happy, nice guy.

但到了99年，我记得你完成900度转体的时候，我最喜欢的片段其实不是那个900度，而是那种专注投入的瞬间，我一直对此很着迷。

But then in '99, I think when you did the 900, one of my favorite, like, clips is not actually the 900, but you see I'm always fascinated by this, like, lock in moment.

你站在坡道顶端，看起来像变了一个人。

You see you on top of the ramp, and you look like a different person.

你看起来并不快乐。

You do not seem joyful.

你完全进入了状态。

You are just totally in the zone.

我一直很好奇，是什么让你能够真正专注，或者当你必须全力以赴时，你内心是什么感觉？

And I was always curious what allows you or what do you feel like when you truly lock in and you have to perform?

我记得那是在电视直播上。

I think it was on live TV.

我记得看过，但记不清是不是直播，现场有那么多人在。

I I remember watching it, but I don't remember if it was live or not, you have all these people there.

我一直很好奇，在这么大的压力下，你要做一件大事之前，你会对自己说什么，才能进入那种状态，因为你看起来就像变了一个人。

Like, I'm always curious what you tell yourself before you have to do something great with all this pressure on in order to lock in, because it seems like you changed to a different person.

我想想，我会对自己说什么呢？

I think what what do I tell myself?

每次我都会对自己说，就是这一次了。

I tell myself, this is the one every time.

而且我早就过了测试的阶段了。

And I am way past testing this.

我的意思是，那个动作有很多要素，真的有很多要素。

And if I feel like I mean, there's so many elements, especially to that trick, there's so many elements.

就像，你得有合适的速度，你得有合适的爆发力，你得有合适的轨迹。

It's just like, you got to have the right amount of speed, you got to have the right snap, you got to have the right trajectory.

你需要足够的高度才能看到你的落地区域。

You need enough height to be able to see your landing zone.

但到了某个时候，你会把这些都当成理所当然的，而且你知道你会全力以赴，即使其中某个要素不太对。

But at some point, you take all those things for granted, and you know you are going to commit to it, even if one of those things isn't right.

我确实做到了，显然，在那一刻，你看了的话，我做了好几次，甚至十几次。

Which I did, obviously, in that moment several times or a dozen times when you look at it.

你会害怕吗？

Are you fearful?

你看不到失败。

You don't see failure.

就是这样。

That's what it is.

我在做那个动作的时候，我根本看不到，我根本不会去考虑后果。

I I do not see when I when I'm doing that, I don't I don't consider consequence.

我不会想我可能太累了，然后放弃。

I don't consider that I might be too tired and give up.

我不会想我可能会受重伤。

I don't consider that I might seriously injure myself.

因为一旦那些念头进入你的脑海，它们就会失控。

Because once those thoughts enter your head, they can spiral out.

或者说，那才是这件事真正的结局。

Or that that is the that will be the the actual outcome of this.

那一刻我就知道，要么我成功完成这个动作，要么你把我昏迷着抬出这个场地。

I knew in that moment that you're either I'm either gonna make this trick, or you're gonna carry me unconscious out of this arena.

那个动作成功的几率有多大？

What were the odds of success of that trick?

对我来说，在那之前的人生里，成功的几率是百分之百会受伤，因为每次我尝试做这个动作，都会受伤。

I well, for me, the odds up to that point in my life, the odds were a 100% that I'm gonna get hurt if I try to make this because every other time that I tried to make it, I got hurt.

所以你在那一刻之前从来没成功过？

So you had you had never done it before that moment?

没有。

No.

练习的时候也没成功过。

In practice, nothing.

从来没有。

Never.

没有。

No.

没有，没人成功过。

No no one had.

没有人完整地完成过并且骑走。

No one had made it completely and and ridden away.

但我知道，我是说，我上一次完全投入尝试是在几年前，我在一个仓库的坡道上摔断了肋骨，那是个工作日的下午两点左右，我还得去接我的大儿子。

But I knew I mean, the last time that I I fully committed to it was a few years before that, and I broke my rib on a ramp in a warehouse at around 2PM on a weekday, and I had to go pick up my oldest son.

他那时候还小，在上幼儿园，我因为肋骨断了几乎喘不过气，但他还在等我，所以我必须去接他。

He was was little then at preschool, barely able to breathe because I had broken my rib, I and like, he's he's waiting for me, so I had to go get him.

这就是1994年的状况。

Like, that that was the sort of state of things in 1994.

然后时间快进，没人看着。

And then fast forward and no one's watching.

我就是想做成功，所以就做了。

Like, I just did it because I wanted to make it.

然后快进五年，这件事就登上了ESPN的直播大舞台。

And then fast forward five years, and it's on this huge stage on live ESPN.

感觉完全不可思议。

Like, it just made no sense.

但我把那些都抛在脑后了，因为我觉得，我终于要完成这件困扰了我十年的事了。

But I blocked all that out because it was like, I'm finally at the threshold of doing this thing that has plagued me for ten years.

而且我得到了同行们的支持，我觉得人们当时看到的，比我做的这件事本身更重要的，是他们看到了这种追求，这项运动虽然有竞争性，但其中充满了深厚的友情。

And I have the support of my peers, which I mean, I think I think what people saw in that moment that that is much bigger than what I did is they saw that there's this this pursuit, the sport that, yes, is competitive, but it's there's so much camaraderie in it.

它的进步依赖于大家的共同努力。

And the progression of it is dependent on a collective effort.

所以他们看到的是，哇，这看起来好酷。

And so what they saw was like, woah, this that seems cool.

我觉得很多孩子都看到了。

I I I feel like a lot of kids saw that.

这看起来好酷。

Like, this seems cool.

就是，你和朋友一起滑板，和他们比赛，但他们为你加油，你还能做出别人从没做过的事。

Like, you skate with your friends, you compete against them, but they cheer you on, and you can do stuff that no one's ever done.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我，你知道，我希望那一刻大家记住的是这个更大的意义。

I I, you know, I I hope that that was the the bigger takeaway from that moment.

哦，这对我来说太疯狂了。

Oh, this is crazy to me.

所以，我，好吧。

So I okay.

所以，我显然不像山姆那样。

So I'm not obviously, I'm not like Sam.

我不是滑板选手。

I'm not a skater.

我没有，对。

I didn't yeah.

但我当时关注这件事，只是因为那时候大家都在关注。

But I paid attention to this just because everybody did at that moment.

那确实很酷。

It was cool.

说实话，我以前一直以为，因为我没怎么深入了解过。

I had always assumed just because I was like, didn't really look that much into it, to be honest.

但我一直以为，我知道从来没有人做到过，无论是在比赛中还是公开场合。

But I just always assumed that I knew nobody had ever done it kind of like in competition or visibly.

我不知道你连练习时都没做过。

I didn't know you had never done it in practice.

连接近都没有，真的。

Not even, like, not even close.

所以，预期的客观结果——比如你摔断肋骨或者更糟——和你在那一刻真正成功的那种荣耀之间的差距，我完全无法理解。

So the the gap between, like, kind of the expected objective result, which would have been you break your rib or worse, And then, like, the glory of of of actually pulling it off in this moment, that doesn't even make sense to me.

你居然敢尝试，这让我太震惊了。

That blows my mind that you even tried it.

那你是怎么想的？

Like, what was the what was the thought process?

我之所以试那个动作，嗯，我告诉你原因吧，因为那是一个最佳动作比赛。

The reason I tried it I well, I'll tell you the reason I tried it is because it was a best trick event.

我们有二十分钟。

We had twenty minutes.

我当时最拿手的动作是Vario七百二十度，也就是说你的身体转两圈，七百二十度，而你的滑板转九百度。

My best trick at the time was a Vario seven twenty, which means that your body does a double spin, seven twenty, and your board does a 900.

这就是Vario的意思。

That's what the very all means.

我这辈子就成功做过一次。

I had made that once in my life.

所以我就想，那是我最拿手的动作，对吧？

And so, I was like, that's my best trick, right?

比赛进行到一半的时候我做了这个动作。

I did it halfway into the event.

我甚至没指望自己能做成。

I didn't expect to be able to make it even possibly.

所以当我真的做成了，我反而不知道接下来该怎么办了。

So the fact that I did it, I didn't really have anywhere to go.

如果我没记错的话，现场解说员，不是播报员，是现场的那个，戴夫·邓肯，他从八十年代就开始解说滑板比赛了，他点名让我来一个。

And if I remember correctly, announcer, the not the on air announcer, but the on-site announcer, Dave Duncan, who has been announcing skate competitions since the eighties, he he called me out.

他说，托尼，来一个900试试呗。

He's like, let's see one of those 900 attempts, Tony.

我当时就想，哥们儿，这……

And I was like, dude, like

真是要命啊。

Cut the hell, man.

真的。

Things really.

你知道，我做不到。

You know, I can't do it.

你知道，我从来没做成过。

You know, I've never haven't done it.

但我想，对，为什么不试试呢？

But I thought, yeah, why not?

那是我接下来想做的事。

That's that is the next stage of what I wanna do.

我试的前几次只是为了给观众看。

And I tried my first couple were just for the crowd.

那更像是，看，这就是转两圈半的样子，因为我能安全地跳出来。

It was just more like, here, this is what it looks like to spin two two and a half times around, because I I can I can bail out of them safely?

真正开始认真做的时候，才变得危险。

It's when I really start to commit to them is when they start getting dangerous.

我觉得大概在第五次尝试的时候，突然就找到了感觉，每次都很稳定。

And I would say within my probably, like, fifth attempt, something clicked that every attempt was was consistent.

通常我们是在那种摇摇晃晃的坡道上滑。

Usually, we're skating on these rickety ramps.

你知道，那种坡道，一面墙接近垂直，另一面墙甚至超过垂直。

They're, you know, one wall is kind of vert, one wall is over vert.

它们也不是很宽。

They're not that wide.

就像，你知道，那是当时最先进的半管，我们那些年一直没机会真正在上面滑。

Like, you know, this was state of the art half pipe that we had never really been able to ride in those years.

我当时觉得，哇，我的速度很稳定。

And I felt like, wow, my speed is is consistent.

我的旋转也很稳定。

My spin is consistent.

以前我可能五次里只有一次能做好。

Like, I I would get maybe one good try out of five.

而且我得抓住那一次好机会。

And I had to commit to that one good try.

现在每一次都能做好。

And now all the tries were good.

所以我觉得我可以再次全力以赴了。

So I guess I can commit again.

我想，大概在第六次尝试的时候，我心想，好吧，我要全力去完成这些落地，看看效果如何。

I thought, you know, somewhere around the sixth attempt, I thought, all right, I'm going to commit to these landings and see how it goes.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我知道时间到了。

You know, I knew that the time was up.

我以为我们已经不在直播了，因为他们说，你们有二十分钟。

I thought we were off air, because they said, you have twenty minutes.

所以我想，好吧。

So I figured, okay.

那是直播画面。

That's the live feed.

对吧？

Right?

但这并不是我做这件事的动机。

But that wasn't that wasn't the incentive for this.

我这么做的动机，是终于要跨过这个困扰我很久的里程碑或者障碍。

The incentive for this was to finally get past this this milestone or this hurdle that had plagued me for so long.

所以当我终于成功的时候，我知道那并不是比赛的一部分。

So when I finally made it, you know, I knew that it wasn't part of the competition.

我当时没觉得这会直播到电视上。

I didn't think it was on air to live TV.

那只是终于松了一口气。

It was just finally this relief.

你看到的就是那个。

That's what you saw.

就像，唉。

It was just like, ugh.

而且我第一个念头就是，我再也不用做这个了。

And and my first thought was, I never have to do this again.

我自由了。

I'm free.

我从这个负担中解脱了。

I'm free from this burden.

我摆脱了这个。

I'm free of this.

我没想到，小心你的愿望，因为无论我走到哪里，

Little did I know, watch what you wish for because little I know everywhere I went

不。

No.

他们只想要那个。

That's all they want.

接下来的几年，人们都说，来个900度转体。

Following years, people were like, do a 900.

等等。

Wait.

那从那时候起，你就能直接做九百度的动作了吗？

So were you able to just do nine hundreds from then on?

就是说，你，我

Like, you I

偶尔能做出来，但总是要试好几次，而且不一定每次都能成功。

couldn't do them occasionally, but they always took several tries, and they didn't always work out.

有时候我就是太累了，做不出来，或者坡道太滑什么的。

Sometimes I would just get exhausted and it didn't work, or the ramp is too slippery or whatever.

哥们，肖恩，你真该看看现在的情况。

Dude, Sean, you should see it now.

现在有小孩能连续做，就是，九百之后是什么来着？

Now there's kids that would do like back to back, like, is it what's after nine hundred?

是十，十二十吗？

'10 10:20?

对。

Yeah.

他们他们他们做900度。

They they they do 900.

他们连续做两个900度。

They do back to back nine hundreds.

对。

Yeah.

有个小孩做了个尖翻加转体900度。

One kid did a kickflip body barrel 900.

你知道吗？

You know?

我是说，他在900度中间加了个尖翻。

I mean, he's got a kickflip in the middle of the 900.

这就像罗杰·班尼斯特那样，现在他们知道这是可能的了？

Is this like a Roger Bannister now they know it's possible?

还是说，今年更厉害？

Or like, is this year better?

我的意思是，一直都是这样，但这就是滑板运动的主线。

I mean, that's what it was always and but that is the the through line of skateboarding.

我们不断在之前看到的基础上进步，这正是我所做的。

We we keep building upon what we saw, which is exactly what I did.

但我成长的那个年代，360度转体已经是最高的了。

But the era that I grew up in, a three sixty was the most you could spin.

然后Mike McGill做了540度，接着我做了720度。

And then Mike McGill did the five forty, and then I did a seven twenty.

然后过了十四年，才有人做出900度。

And then fourteen years passed in between that and a 900.

所以我是通过你的电子游戏认识你的。

So I discovered you through your video game.

我以前每天放学后都玩，在Dreamcast上。

I used to play it every day after school, all the Dreamcast.

我超喜欢那个游戏。

I loved that thing.

那个游戏太棒了。

The game was incredible.

你能讲讲那个游戏的故事吗？

Can you tell the story about the video game?

据我了解，因为这是个商业播客，好像有那种情况。

And as I understand it, there was like a, you know, because it's a business podcast.

好像有一阵子他们想把你买断，对吧？

There was like a moment where they tried to buy you out or like Yeah.

买断你的版税。

Buy your royalties out.

你能讲讲托尼·霍克那个游戏的故事吗？当然可以。

Could you just tell the video game story of the Tony Hawk first Sure.

好吧，你说的是《我的第一个一百万》。

Well, I mean, you're talking about My First Million.

对，就是那个。

That that's Yeah.

这就是它的由来。

That's where it came from.

毫无疑问。

Without question.

嗯，这游戏的故事其实得从1997年左右说起。

The well, the story of the game, it started actually more around 1997.

我接到一个视频游戏设计师的电话。

I got a call from a a video game designer.

我觉得他更像是一个程序员，他说他想让我知道，我之前做过一个滑板游戏的引擎。

I I would say more like a coder, who was said, I wanna you know, I worked on this engine for skateboarding.

他想看看我是否愿意跟他一起去向游戏发行商和主机制造商推销这款游戏。

I wanna see if you would go pitch it with me as a game to publishers and console console manufacturers.

我当时就决定全力投入。

And I was all in.

我是说，我真的非常喜欢，你知道的，我小时候就是个街机迷。

I mean, I I loved you know, I was I was arcade kid.

滑板公园里有个游戏厅。

There was an arcade at the skate park.

当时最新出的游戏是Commodore 64上的《Skater Die》。

And the last game that had been released up to that moment was Skater Die for Commodore 64.

所以那已经是很久以前的事了。

So we're we're years past that.

那时候我们开始更多转向家用游戏机了。

We were coming into home consoles more now.

而他那个游戏，是在一台笔记本电脑上运行的。

And and this the one he had, it was on a laptop.

用的是键盘控制。

It was it was keyboard controls.

就是那个滑板手在碗池里滑来滑去。

It was like this skater just kinda carving in around bowls.

虽然不算特别好，但至少是个东西，而且画面比之前发布的任何游戏都要好。

It was it wasn't great, but it was it was something, and and the graphics looked better than anything that had been previously released.

所以我跟他一起去开会。

So I went with him to meetings.

我们见了任天堂的人。

We met Nintendo.

也见了几家软件发行商，但都没人感兴趣。

We met a few software publishers and just no takers.

说实话，跟这些人谈的时候，场面挺尴尬的。我记得有个人直接说，滑板运动根本不流行。

I mean, it was almost embarrassing, the conversations that we were having with these people, because it was like I remember one one guy said, skateboarding isn't even popular.

滑板游戏怎么会受欢迎呢？

Why would a skateboarding video game be popular?

这是在900度转体之前的事吗？

Was this before the 900?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这大概是九七年左右，我当时还真不知道怎么回答。

This is like this is like ninety seven ish, and I didn't have a good answer to that.

跟我合作的那个人特别沮丧，直接说，我得找份工作。

And and this guy that I was working with got really frustrated, and he just said, look, I gotta I gotta find a job.

他说，我觉得这事儿成不了。

Like, I said, don't think this is it.

我觉得这不会有什么结果。

I don't think this is what's happening.

我也挺同意他的，我也不太想去那些推销会，感觉挺丢人的。

And I I kind of agreed with him, like, don't really wanna go to these pitch meetings either because they're just kind of degrading.

但他最后跟我说了一句话，我记得很清楚。

And he said but I do remember one of last thing he said to me.

他说，我觉得你的名字现在在游戏圈里已经传开了，大家都知道你想做游戏。

He said, I feel like your name is now planted in the video game world as someone who would like to work on a game or do a game.

而且如果有人做游戏的话，他们很可能会联系你。

And and if someone does one, they'll probably call you.

我当时就说，好啊。

And I was like, sure.

大概一年后，我接到了动视的电话。

And about a year later, I got a call from Activision.

他们说，听说你在做游戏。

And they said, we heard you're working on a game.

我说，没有啊，但我很想做。

And I was like, I'm not, but I want to.

他们说，那正好，我们在做。

And they said, well, we are.

我们在做一个滑板游戏，想请你来看看，看看你有没有兴趣参与。

We are working on a game that is skateboarding, and we would like you to come see it and see if you wanna be involved.

然后我就去了动视。

And I went up to Activision.

他们刚发布了一款游戏，叫什么来着，布鲁斯·威利斯主演的《天启》。

They had just released, what was it called, Apocalypse with Bruce Willis.

就是真的用了布鲁斯·威利斯的脸和声音，这在当时还挺新鲜的。

Like, literally featuring the the likeness and voice of Bruce Willis, which was kind of a that was a new thing.

他们那时候大吗？

Were they big?

他们说，你说游戏吗？

And they said, the game?

不是。

No.

我说的是公司，动视。

The company, Activision.

动视。

Activision.

不大。

No.

但现在他们可大了。

But now now they're huge.

我是说，他们之前最火的游戏是《Pitfall》。

I mean, their their biggest hit before that was pitfall.

好的。

Okay.

但那时候他们有多少员工，几十个还是几百个？

But was it, like, dozens or hundreds of employees?

大概几十个吧。

More like dozens.

哇。

Wow.

他们刚被收购。

They had just been taken over.

其实鲍比·科蒂克刚接手公司，而且我觉得他买下公司的价格比他们预想的要低得多。

Bobby Kotick actually just just took over the company, and I think bought it for much less than they ever expected.

他们当时就是想搞点新东西出来。

And they were just trying to make something new happen.

就像我说的，你想想看，那可是《Pitfall》啊。

And like I said, I mean, you're talking about pitfall.

那大概是八十年代中期的事了。

That was like that was mid eighties.

好处就是他们对什么都挺开放的。

The good thing about that was that they were open to kinda anything.

他们没有那种千篇一律的做法，不是非得按我们做热门游戏的方式来。

They didn't have this cookie cutter approach that this is how we make popular games.

非得是第一人称射击游戏。

They have to be first person shooters.

他们得有那种，你知道的，他们没有《使命召唤》那种思维定式。

They have to you know, they didn't have the Call of Duty mindset.

对。

Mhmm.

所以他们愿意让我们在滑板游戏上放开手脚去尝试。

So they were willing to let us kinda go crazy with a skate game.

我去了那边，他们递给我一个控制器和一台改装过的PlayStation，我玩到的第一个版本的《托尼·霍克职业滑板》就是布鲁斯·威利斯背着枪在滑板上，在沙漠里做豚跳和翻板动作。

So I went up there, and the very they handed me a controller and a modified PlayStation, And the first version of what became THPS that I got to play was Bruce Willis on a skateboard with a gun strapped to his back, doing ollies and kickflips across the desert.

我的意思是，那太棒了。

I mean, it was amazing.

我一上手就感觉，这操作很直观。

I mean, it was it was, like, as soon as I did I was intuitive.

操作很直观。

The controls were intuitive.

就像我说的，我当时在做空中抓板动作。

I was like I said, I was doing I was doing method errors.

不会吧。

No.

你才没有。

You weren't.

布鲁斯·威利斯在做方法失误。

Bruce Willis was doing method errors.

对。

Yeah.

方法失误，对。

Method yeah.

他确实在。

He was.

我当时就想，这可能是滑板爱好者见过的最酷的东西了。

And I thought this is this could be the coolest thing ever for skateboarders.

而且那时候所有人都跟我说，滑板运动并不流行。

And like everyone told me at the time, skateboarding was not popular.

但我下定决心要做一款连硬核滑板玩家都会欣赏的滑板游戏。

But I set out to make a skateboarding game that hardcore skaters themselves would appreciate.

就是这样。

That was it.

这就是我的目标。

That was my goal.

太棒了。

Awesome.

你知道吗，Shaan，那些关卡都是真实的滑板场地。

Like, I don't know if you know this, Shaan, but all the levels, they were those are real, like, skate spots.

比如我搬到旧金山的时候，看到托尼·霍克职业滑板里的第三街和阿米街，我就想，我得去那儿滑一下。

Like, when I moved to San Francisco, I was like, I saw Third and Army on Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.

我得去那儿滑一下。

I gotta go skate it.

还有，我就是通过这个游戏认识了Goldfinger和很多这样的乐队。

Or, like, that's how I got introduced to, like, Goldfinger and, like, a lot of these bands.

那真是太棒了。

That was awesome.

然后，你知道，Alyssa Steamer、Andrew Reynolds、Jeff Rally，这些游戏里的滑手，现在都成了我的哥们儿。

And then, like, you know, Alyssa Steamer, Andrew Reynolds, Jeff Rally, like, all these skaters that were on there, they were, like, my guys now.

这真的引发了一整套东西。

It it created a whole thing.

这挺疯狂的，因为对滑板迷来说很真实，他们可以聊这个，但其他人也都喜欢。

It was pretty wild because it was, like, authentic to, like, the skater nerds could talk about it, but then, like, anyone was into it.

这真的挺疯狂的。

It was it was it was pretty crazy

就是那个最佳平衡点，硬核爱好者会认可，但同时又足够大众化，像我这种从来没滑过板的人，都不知道那些是真实存在的公园。

how that sweet spot where the hardcore, you know, enthusiast, you know, respects it, but it's broad enough where a guy like me who's never skateboarded didn't know these are all after real parks.

我就能直接玩，而且玩得很开心。

I just could use it and have fun.

对吧？

Right?

就像皮克斯电影一样，不同的人看都能得到乐趣，但层次完全不同。

It's like a Pixar movie where it has two two different people can watch it and get and both enjoy it, but at two totally different levels.

对。

Yeah.

我其实没料到它会引起非滑板爱好者的共鸣。

And and I didn't really expect it to resonate with non skaters.

我知道这是个好玩的游戏，因为我从小玩电子游戏长大。

I knew it was a fun game because I had played video games my whole life.

但我也知道它比较小众，滑板那时候还算比较另类，怎么说呢。

But I also knew that it was niche, and skateboarding was still kind of more alternative and and whatever you wanna say.

不过我得说，我运气不错，我是说，我在很多方面运气都不错，但其中一个方面是，我刚做了几个大品牌的营销活动和推广，这些品牌我信得过，但他们的广告在表现滑板方面有点俗气。

But I will say that I got lucky in I mean, I got lucky in all kinds of ways, but but one way was I had just done a couple of big marketing campaigns, promotions for brands that I believe in, but their campaign was cheesy in terms of how it represented skateboarding.

因为他们想要的是，你知道，那是麦迪逊大道的风格，他们对滑板有自己的理解。

Because they wanted you know, it was it was Madison Avenue, and they they had their take on what skateboarding was.

我就跟着做了，因为我终于能靠滑板赚钱了，你知道，做点跟滑板相关的事。

And I just went along because I'm finally getting paid, you know, to to to do something with skateboarding.

但我觉得他们没有考虑到滑板爱好者的那种坚持，或者说他们根本不在乎。

But I didn't feel like it had skateboarders' integrity in mind, or they didn't really care about it.

所以我告诉自己，如果我再接到大公司的大单子，我一定要坚持对最终发布的内容有最终决定权。

And so I told myself, if I get any more big deals from big companies, I'm going to demand that I have final approval over what goes out.

那时候这么做挺大胆的，因为滑板虽然已经上了X Games，但其他人还是觉得他们更懂怎么做广告和营销这些。

That was a daring move at that time because skateboarding was still you know, it was x games, but everyone else knew better of how to do commercials and campaigns and stuff.

所以我签的第一份带这个审批要求的合同，就是和Activision签的。

And so the very first contract I signed with that approval demand was Activision.

就像我说的，他们当时其实也是在乱试，什么招都使。

And like I said, they were kind of throwing everything against the wall.

然后他们说，行吧。

So they said, okay.

我们就信他一次。

We'll we'll we'll trust him.

后来游戏开始开发，慢慢有了些动静，大家开始议论纷纷。

And then as the game started to get developed, as it started, there was kind of a buzz in the air about it.

其实吧，这事儿过去很久了，我现在说出来也不会惹麻烦了。

I actually I mean, it's been a long time, so I'm not getting in trouble anymore.

但当时开发的时候，我偷偷拷了几份给朋友们。

But I burned copies of it from my friends while we were developing it.

所以，我有几个朋友拿到了《托尼·霍克职业滑板》的测试版，我甚至改了他们的PlayStation让他们能玩，因为我想听听真正的滑手们的真实反馈。

So, like, a few of my friends have beta versions of THPS, And I actually modified their PlayStation so they can play it because I wanted honest feedback from real skaters.

这是在角色还没定下来之前。

This is before we actually chose the characters.

然后他们还会让其他人玩，包括一些有名的滑手。

And they would let other people play it and prominent skaters.

后来，滑板圈里开始对这款游戏议论纷纷。

And at some point, there was a buzz in the skate industry about the game.

他们就直接叫它“那个游戏”。

They just called it the game.

我就知道我们搞对了，因为连那些硬核滑手都兴奋得想去买台游戏机来玩这个游戏。

And I knew that we were onto something if hardcore skaters are excited to go buy a a console to play this game.

然后，随着动视那边开始，随着我们接近发售日期，他们开始把游戏寄给游戏评测杂志、媒体什么的，只要有人关注，然后反馈就特别热烈。

And then as as activation started to as we were getting close to the release date, they started sending it to game review magazines, you know, media outlets, whoever would would pay attention, and started getting insane feedback.

我是说，他们拿到的评分都是九点几、九分、十分满分那种。

I mean, they were getting reviews of, like, nine nine point o, nine, you know, perfect 10, whatever.

就在发布前，他们打电话给我说，我们想一次性买断你未来的版税。

And right before the release, they called me and said, we want to offer you a buyout of future royalties.

我说，这是什么意思？

I said, does that mean?

他们说，我们想给你50万美元，之后你就没有版税了。

They said, we want to offer you $500,000, and then you won't get royalties going forward.

那时候对我来说，50万美元听起来就像天文数字一样。

At that time in my life, someone saying a $500,000 sounded like a 0.5 a gazillion dollars.

我从来没听人说过这个数字，除非是在谈论某个我们永远见不到的传奇人物。

Like, I had never heard anyone speak those words unless they're talking about some fantastical person that we will never meet.

但我刚买了新房子。

But I had just bought a new house.

我有了终于能负担得起的房贷。

I had got a I got a mortgage that I could finally afford.

我在赞助和比赛方面也有一些不错的前景。

I had some decent prospects with sponsorships, with competition.

我还在参加比赛。

I was still competing.

然后我想，现在我就让它继续发展吧。

And I thought, now I'm gonna let her ride.

为什么不呢？

Like, why not?

就这样，我赚到了我的第一个一百万。

And that's how I made my first million.

你还记得或者能回忆起第一场比赛之后，或者几场比赛之后，或者开始赚钱几年后，你突然觉得，哇。

Do you remember or can you recall the day after the first game or a few games in or a few years started making money, where you're like, oh, wow.

因为这款游戏，生活现在变得不一样了。

Life is different now because of this game.

当然。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得肯定是在第二款发布之后，那时候大家的兴趣一下子爆发了。

I would say definitely after the second release where things exploded with interest.

而且因为那个原因，普通大众也更熟悉我的名字了，然后突然就开始有人找我做更大的广告活动。

And also just in terms because because of that, people knew my name more in the general public, and then suddenly, was getting offers to do bigger campaigns.

我是说，我甚至被邀请去走红毯首映礼，你知道吗，就是一些我觉得莫名其妙的事情。

I mean, I was getting invited to red carpet premieres, you know, just random stuff that made no sense to me.

那确实很让人兴奋，但同时也觉得，这种名气有点奇怪，我从来没想过，甚至也不想要。

It was exciting, but it was also just kinda like, this is a weird level of fame that I never expected or even wanted.

不过我得告诉你，第四款游戏发布的时候，如果我没记错的话，我和动视那边的关系人一起吃了午饭。

But I will tell you that when when the fourth game was released, if I have this right, I had lunch with with my connection at at Activision.

我特意去了趟洛杉矶。

I actually went up to LA.

他说，我真的想跟你聊聊这款游戏，还有它的未来。

He's like, I really wanna talk to you about about the game and and the future of it.

而第四款游戏刚刚发布。

And fourth game just got released.

它一下子就冲进了销量前十。

It got to be in the top 10 sales right away.

然后他说，前三部也还在前十。

And he said, the first three are still in the top 10.

所以那时候，前十名里有四款都是《托尼·霍克职业滑板》。

So at that time, four out of the top 10 games were THPS.

我就说，那是什么意思？

And I said, what does that even mean?

他说，就是这个意思。

And he's like, this is what it means.

然后他从桌上推过来一张四百五十万美元的支票。

And he slid a check across the table for $4,500,000.

那笔钱改变你的人生了吗？

Was that life changing?

是的。

Yeah.

这和完成900度转体时的感觉一样吗，只是如释重负？

Was it the same feeling as the 900, just relief?

还是这次你感到了一些喜悦？

Or this time you had some joy?

我的意思是，这确实令人开心。

I mean, it's joyous.

你知道，我从来不是为了钱才做这些的。

It's you know, I I never did it for that though.

所以并不是那种‘哦，好吧’的感觉。

So it wasn't like, oh, okay.

就这样了。

That's it.

我终于成功了。

I'm finally I finally made it.

知道我的家人不必再……

It was nice to know that my family would not have to

去挣扎。

to struggle.

今天的播客由我的朋友Mercury赞助。

Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury.

他们做的是世界上最好的银行产品。

They make the world's best banking product.

我想你已经知道了。

I think you know this already.

我所有的生意都用Mercury。

I use Mercury for all of my businesses.

我大概有七八家公司吧。

I think I have, like, maybe seven or eight businesses.

我们所有公司的企业银行都用Mercury。

We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them.

而且他们最近刚刚推出了个人银行账户。

And now they actually just launched a personal banking account.

所以我的个人账户也开在了那边。

So I have my personal account there.

我已经不用富国银行和大通银行了。

I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase.

我现在就全用Mercury。

I'm just all in on Mercury.

为什么？

Why?

我喜欢用起来简单的产品。

I like products that are easy to use.

我喜欢那种懂我、也懂我需求的产品。

I like products that get me and the problems that I have.

比如说，跟我太太开个联名账户特别方便。

So, like, very easy to make a joint account with my wife.

开虚拟卡也特别简单。

Very easy to spin up virtual cards.

一键就能获得储蓄收益。

One click, and I get savings yield.

我需要的东西全都集中在一个地方。

It just has all the stuff that I need in one place.

所以如果你在找市场上最好的银行产品，那绝对是Mercury。

So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury.

谁不同意这一点，我就跟谁干一架。

I will fist fight anybody who disagrees with me on that.

去mercury.com/personal了解更多。

Go to mercury.com/personal and learn more.

Mercury是一家金融科技公司，不是FDIC承保的银行。

Mercury is a fintech, not an FDIC insured bank.

银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column, N提供。

Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group and Column, N.

A，FDIC成员。

A, members FDIC.

当时没多少人做你做的这种事。

Not many people were doing the type of thing you did.

可以说，你其实是最早拥有自己产品或品牌的网红之一。

Like, you were actually, in a way, one of the first influencers to have a product or a brand.

现在这已经很普遍了，但你确实是早期的成功案例之一。

Now, today, that's very, very common, but actually, you're one of the early success stories

不。

No.

那真的挺奇怪的。

That was that was super strange.

我的意思是，人们提到托尼·霍克，说的不是我。

I mean, people would talk about Tony Hawk, and they're not talking about me.

连游戏设计师和动视的员工都会说，哦，下一款托尼·霍克游戏怎么样，我就说，嗨，我在这儿呢。

Even the game designers and and the people who worked at Activision would be like, oh, well, for the next Tony Hawk, I'm like, hi.

这确实很奇怪，因为像韦恩·格雷茨基、迈克尔·乔丹、泰格·伍兹、兰斯·阿姆斯特朗、托尼·霍克这些人。

Well, it's a very it's a it's a very strange thing because there's like Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Tony Hawk.