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作为企业家，我们获得的最大资本回报就是人才。
The highest returns on capital we get as entrepreneurs is talent.
真的，句号。
Like, full stop.
还有什么地方能如此可靠地获得10倍、20倍甚至100倍的回报？
Where else do you get 10 x, 20 x, 100 x return so reliably?
如果我从'必须填补这个职位'的角度考虑，通常都找不到合适人选。
If I'm thinking from the, like, I really have to fill this role angle, it's, like, usually not the right person.
如果我在想'不管有没有职位都要招这个人'，
If I'm thinking, like, how do you even care if I have a role for this person?
那就必须把这个人招进来。
I have to get them in.
这样通常就是合适的人选。
It's usually the right person.
当你营收达到500万时，就必须转型成为人才收集者。
Once you get to, like, 5,000,000 in revenue, that's what you have to become as a collector of people.
这是模式识别能力，尤其在人才方面更是如此。
It's pattern recognition, but especially when it comes to talent.
你必须快速发展。
You have to grow fast.
我认为这是个良性循环。
And I do think that's a virtuous cycle.
发展得越快，获得的人才越多，进而推动更快发展。
The faster you grow, the more talent you get, which grows you faster.
因此，反过来也可能很恶劣。
And so it can also be vicious in the other direction.
大多数情况下，反过来是很恶劣的。
It's mostly vicious in the other direction.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我正在招聘大约六七个职位。
I'm hiring for about six or seven roles.
你觉得我可能会犯哪些错误？
What mistakes do you think I'll likely make?
比如，如果有人以C级高管的身份加入，却没有过去共事过的人际网络，那就很奇怪。
Like, if somebody comes in as a c level exec and has no network of people that they've worked with in the past, That's weird.
你最近招聘的人中有谁明显比你优秀或教会了你什么？
Who have you hired recently that is significantly better than you or has taught you something?
谁能让你学到东西？
Who takes you to school?
这是我只有经过十四年商业经验后才能说的话，那就是
This is something that I can only say now with fourteen years of business experience, is
我全身心投入其中，就像在路上度过的休息日一样。
I put my all in it like my days off on the road.
让我们去旅行吧，我就是喜欢这样。
Let's travel I just like
我想肖恩你也这么做的。
I think you Sean does this as well.
你的思维方式是框架化的。
You think in frameworks.
我完全不是那样思考的。
I don't think like that at all.
这对我来说不是自然而然的事。
That does not come naturally to me.
每当我听到你或我们共同的朋友瑞恩·戴斯时。
And whenever I hear you or we have a mutual friend, Ryan Dice.
瑞恩当时让我觉得自己像个混蛋。
And Ryan was like he he was like, making me feel like a jerk.
他还说，你不是用框架思考的吗？
He was like, you don't think in frameworks?
比如，你如何学习某样东西，然后考虑怎么教给你的团队之类的？
Like, how do you learn something and then think how you're gonna teach it to your team or whatever?
我当时就说，老兄，我也不知道啊。
And I'm like, I don't know, man.
我感觉自己像个原始人。
I'm like a Neanderthal.
就是，我有时候就是，怎么说呢，随波逐流地生活，我不喜欢用框架来反思和思考，但你会这么做。
Like, I just kinda, like, float by life sometimes, and I just, like, I don't like reflect and think in a framework, but you do that.
我认为框架是在你需要反复教授或重复使用同一思维过程时产生的。
I think frameworks happen when you have to reteach or reuse the same thought process over and over again.
与其每次都重新推导相同的决策集，不如创建一个框架来给自己提供思维捷径。
And so rather than re deriving the same decision set, you create a framework to give yourself mental shorthand.
所以我觉得就像，就像我我我创建了那个扩展框架，就像你在实施研讨会上看到的，那个Mozy六要素什么的。
And so I think it's just like, like I I I created the scaling what like you were at the implementation workshop, the Mozy six or whatever.
就是更多指标、市场、模型、资金，然后我过去用模型里有，你知道的，四个分支，最后是人力。
It's like more metrics, market, model, money, and then I used to model there's, you know, four offshoots and then finally manpower.
所以就像是，这些就是人们在业务中受限的六个原因，对吧？
So it's like, these are the six reasons that people get limited in their business, right?
这是因为我想过，好吧，我已经做了太多问答电话了。
And that was because I had to think like, okay, I've done so many q and a calls.
肯定存在一个决策树。
There has to be there is a decision tree.
可能比我想象的更复杂，但我确实在遵循某个决策树。
Like it might be more complex than I thought it was, but there is a decision tree that I'm going through.
所以实际上就是把这个明确化。
And so just actually crystallizing that.
所以你完全是用框架思考的，只是没有把它们记录下来。
And so you you totally think in frameworks, you just haven't documented them.
这就是我的小小建议。
That's my that's my 2¢.
这是我的看法。
That's my opinion.
嗯，就像，你之前有个很酷的——我记得前几天跟你说过，我在看你的内容，不是关于赚钱策略的，而是关于领导力和管理策略的，你有个很酷的概念叫'钻石法则'。
Well, like, you had this cool like, I've been watching your I think I told you the other day, I was watching your content, not on tactics of making money, but on tactics of leadership and management, and you had this cool thing called the diamond.
对。
Yeah.
很棒。
It's great.
简单来说，对听众而言就是：如果你有个员工没按你期望的方式工作，要么是他们不清楚你的要求，要么不知道怎么做，要么缺乏动力，或者我认为，他们不清楚截止时间。
It was like, basically, for the listener, it was like, if you have an employee who's not doing what you want them to do, they're either they don't know what you want done, they don't know how to do it, they weren't motivated, or they don't know, I think, when you want it done.
对。
Yeah.
或者有什么阻碍了他们。
Or there's something blocking them.
没错。
Yeah.
当你提出这类理论时，是原创的吗？
And when you come up with something like that, is that something that you make up?
还是你会参考其他书籍，汲取这些精彩的灵感片段然后重新整合？
Or do you read other books and you steal like this like cool bits of inspiration and you repurpose them
来满足你的需求？
for your need?
老实说，我读的书可能远不如应该读的那么多。
So honest truth, I really don't read as much as I probably should.
我几乎所有的创作都源于我自己动手实践时突然想到——哥们，肯定有更简单的方法来描述这个。
Almost all my stuff just comes from like, me doing it and then saying man, there's got to be an easy way to describe this.
如果我偶然遇到某种巧合，我会将其视为对某个想法的佐证。
If I happen to come along some sort of, know, if there's some coincidence, I see that as corroboration of an idea.
但说实话，我真的不会通过吸收别人的作品来获取灵感。
But yeah, no, I I really don't consume anyone else's stuff for for like inspiration.
每天我都有足够多的事情要处理，有说不完的话题。
I like I have enough shit going on every day, have tons of stuff to talk about.
所以那份管理文档的核心就是：人们不做某事总有原因，我得找出那个原因。
And so yeah, no, the management document was like, alright, fundamentally people don't do stuff for a reason, I have to figure out what that reason is.
我需要建立一个对话框架，让谈话不会变成人身攻击。
And if there's a way that I can have a framework that I can have for this conversation that makes it less like, how do I not attack the person?
没错。
Right.
而不是说'你就是个废物'这样的话。
Rather than say like, you are the least piece of shit.
因为这种话不仅毫无建设性，而且很可能根本不是他们不作为的真正原因。
It's like that's that's unlikely to be productive and also probably not the real cause of why they're not doing things.
毕竟大多数人还是希望保住工作，并且做好本职工作的。
Because most people do prefer to stay employed and also prefer to, you know, do a good job.
总体而言是这样。
I think by and large.
如果我们认同这点，既然我和他们都希望成功，那么问题究竟出在哪里？
And so it's like if we take that to be true, and I want them to succeed and so do they, then like what's getting in the way here?
就是说，我没有明确告诉他们我希望他们做这件事。
It's like, well I didn't communicate that I wanted them to do this thing.
好吧，这是我的问题。
Okay, well that's on me.
我没说清楚，我告诉他们了，但他们觉得无所谓。
I didn't tell like, I told them, but then they're like, cool.
我不知道该怎么做。
I don't know how to do that.
这是个培训问题。
That's a training issue.
好的。
Okay.
你知道，他们根本不知道这事还有截止日期。
You know, they they they didn't know there was a deadline associated with it.
这是个时间节点的问题。
It's a when problem.
对吧？
Right?
然后他们就觉得，好吧，他们知道什么时候该做。
And then it's like, okay, well they knew when to do it.
他们知道该怎么做。
They knew how to do it.
而且他们知道我希望他们做这件事。
And they knew that I wanted them to do it.
那么情况就是，好吧，那是不是有什么东西在阻碍他们？
Then it's like, okay, well then is there something blocking them?
现在说到动机问题，比如他们缺乏动力，这在技术上是正确的。
Now, the motivation one of like, they're not motivated to, is like technically correct.
但这是我最后才会考虑的因素，因为大多数时候人们相对还是有动力去做的。
But it's the last one that I'll go to because most times people are relatively motivated to do it.
不过请注意，确实有些时候情况并非如此，对吧？
Now mind you, there's definitely times when that's just not the case, right?
或者说'如何做'这个环节需要某种更通用的技能，而某人恰好不具备。
Or the how component has a more generalized skill that someone doesn't have.
所以我会换个说法，比如为了胜任某个职位，我的观点是——你可能听过态度与能力的比较。
So I'll I'll I'll say differently like, if in order to do a role, my position is like, you probably heard like attitude versus aptitude.
这个说法过去经常困扰我，因为我觉得事情不可能总是这样，对吧？
And that used to bug me a lot because I was like, well that can't always be what it is, right?
因为实际上这只是说明某人缺乏担任某个职位所需的技能组合。
Because it's really just that's, there's a deficiency in someone's skill set to enter an organization to do a role.
所以我们更愿意雇佣那些只存在小技能缺陷的人。
And so we want to hire for the small skill deficiency.
如果你要招聘的是人们眼中的低技能岗位，比如经营民宿需要保洁，或者开酸奶店需要清洁柜台和收银的员工，这些在技术上确实属于低技能工作。
If you're hiring for what people consider low skill labor, so if you run an Airbnb and need maids, or you have a yogurt shop, and you need to have people who do you know, clean the counter and like check people out, that's very low skill technically.
但在招聘时，你要看态度而非能力。
But in terms of hiring, you're gonna hire for attitude not aptitude.
这是因为培养一个人的态度所需技能，远超过教会一个本就友善、守时、会微笑打招呼聊天的人使用收银机和清洁——后者可能只需要两小时。
And that's just because the amount of skills required to train someone on attitude, far outweigh the skills it takes to take somebody who's already friendly, knows how to show up on time, can smile, say hello, make chitchat, teach them how to use a cash register and clean the thing, could take like two hours.
担任那个角色其实不需要太多培训。
Like it's not a lot of training in order to do that role.
所以根据资质来招聘没有意义。
And so it doesn't make sense to hire someone for aptitude.
就像我以前也收过银，但我这人挺混蛋的。
Like I've worked a cash register before, but I'm a dick.
这就好比...嗯，那样做没什么帮助。
It's like, well, that's not gonna be very helpful.
就像我还得培训你别当个混蛋。
Like I'm gonna have to train you to not be a dick.
不值得这么折腾。
It's not worth it.
反过来说，如果你想招世界顶尖的AI研究员，就算那人有点混蛋，你或许还能跟他沟通，让他稍微...你知道的，更擅长团队协作一点。
On the flip side, if you wanna have the number one AI researcher in the world, if that guy's a bit of a dick, then you could probably work with him on being a little bit, you know, better at communicating with the team.
你总不会把那个...酸奶店收银员，就算他们很认真记笔记，也没在私下研究这些，直接提拔成首席AI研究员吧。
You're not gonna take the person who was, you know, the yogurt store cashier register, assuming they take note, you know, they're not on the side doing all this stuff, and make them the number one AI researcher.
所以我认为，我们至少应该优先雇佣那些技能效率高的人。
And so it's like, we always just all should at least in my opinion, hire for the person with the small skilled efficiency.
接着我们要问：对于企业主而言，考虑到这种技能效率，投入资源培训他们是否值得？
And then we have to ask the question is the business owner, given that skilled efficiency, is it worth us or worth our resources to train them?
因此我的观点是：所有技能都是可以培训的，问题在于是否值得投入培训。
And so I take the position that I think every skill is trainable, it's just, is it worth training?
就像...有没有其他人能带来更高回报？如果有，那当然优先用他们。
Like, are there other people I get higher returns on in which case, great, I'll use them.
对我来说，这从根本上解释了我职业生涯中招聘实践的最大变化——我现在更看重综合智力。
And that for me is fundamentally like why I would say that over my career, the biggest change in terms of my hiring practices is I hire far more for general intelligence now.
智力能让人更快弥补技能差距，因此这是对他们现状与目标之间资源投入的回报，无论是所谓的态度问题，还是所谓的硬技能问题。
The intelligence will allow someone to bridge the skill gap faster, and so it's a return on resources for where they are versus where they need to be, whether it's a quote attitude issue, or quote hard skills issue.
但我认为软技能和硬技能本质上都是技能。
But I see soft skills and hard skills as just skills.
硬技能容易定义和衡量，软技能则难以定义和衡量，但它们仍然是可以定义和衡量的。
One are, you know, hard skills are easy to easy to define and measure, soft skills are just hard to define and measure, but they still are definable and measurable.
所以我希望招到高智商的人，因为我把智力定义为学习速度。
And so I want somebody who has high intelligence, because I define intelligence as rate of learning.
如果能招到学习速度快的人，相比其他人，也许他们起步稍晚，但六个月后就会超越那些可能有经验的人。
So if I can get someone who has a high rate of learning, versus somebody else, maybe that person starts a little bit behind, but in six months they're gonna pass the other person who might have experience.
重申一次，这完全取决于时间线。
Again, it all depends on what the timeline is.
如果我招个幼儿，能否在十八年后把他培养成完美的成年人？但我不知道是否有十八年可以等待。
If I take a toddler, can I get them to be an adult in eighteen years and be perfect, but I don't know if I have eighteen years to wait?
所以，这大概就是我的通用标准。
And so, you know, that's that's kind of my general rubric.
当你招聘聪明人时，怎么判断他们是否聪明？
When when you're hiring for smart people, how do you figure out if they're smart?
非常好的问题。
Really good question.
我认为有几个关键点。
I think the quality so couple things.
所以他们提出的问题的质量
So the the the quality of the questions that they ask
让我们深入探讨每一个问题。
Let's go deep in each one.
所以他们提出的问题的质量。
So the quality of questions that they ask.
好的。
Okay.
什么是高质量的问题？
What's a high quality question?
如果有人这样说：嘿，我注意到你们这里有个媒体品牌，还有个咨询业务。
So if someone said, hey, I noticed that you guys have this media brand here and you have this advisory practice here.
这方面的收入留存率是多少？
What's revenue retention around that?
你们是否考虑过其他目前不在计划中的业务模式？
Is there's another vehicle that you guys have considered that, you know, isn't in the pipeline right now?
我会觉得：哇，这说明他们做了充分调研，并且能把这两个复杂概念联系起来向我提问。
I'd be like, wow, that demonstrated that they did a fair amount of research and they were able to take a complex thought between these two things and and ask me about it.
所以这真是个很棒的问题。
So like, that's a great question.
而如果有人问：公司的五年愿景是什么？
Whereas if someone says like, you know, what's the five year vision of the company?
我不认为这是个糟糕的问题。
I don't see that as a bad question.
是啊。
Yeah.
我只是觉得这有点像那种通用的面试问题，如果有人问的话——如果网上还没有现成答案的话。要知道，我们这种情况的利弊和你类似，就是我的很多信息都是公开的。
I just see that it's like kind of a generic interview question someone And might if that's not already answerable online, which, know, the the the pros and cons of our situation similar to you is that a lot of my stuff is public.
所以我期待有人能提出比通用问题更好的问题，因为我已经公开回答过那些通用问题了。
And so I expect somebody to come in with better than generic questions because I've already answered generic questions publicly.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, everyone.
很快说几句。
Really quick.
如果你喜欢本期关于CEO话题的内容——比如授权、与团队进行艰难对话、招聘等——那么我有好东西要推荐给你。
If you're enjoying this episode on CEO stuff, so delegating, having hard conversations with your team, hiring, then I've got something for you.
HubSpot团队整理了一系列我和肖恩在自己公司使用的最佳实践。
So the team at HubSpot, they actually went and put together a bunch of best practices that Sean and I use in our own companies.
他们把这些内容汇编成了一份非常易于阅读和理解的材料。
And they put it together in something that's really easy to read and understand.
如果你想为自己节省十年头疼和心碎的时间，那么你应该看看这个。
And so if you wanna just save yourself ten years of headache and heartache, then you should check it out.
真希望我们早就拥有这个了。
I wish we had this long time ago.
它本可以帮到我很多。
It would've helped me a lot.
屏幕上应该有个二维码可以扫描，或者描述区有链接。
But there should be a QR code on your screen that you can scan or a link in the description.
快来看看这个。
So check it out.
完全免费，而且超级棒。
It's totally free and totally awesome.
好的。
Okay.
那么第二个是什么来着？
And so what was the second one?
哦，当他们用自己思考的方式来解构正在解决的问题时。
Oh, when they deconstruct a problem that they're solving in terms of what they're thinking with.
说实话，这其实不是我的发明。
So, I mean this is, to be fair, this isn't like my invention.
但在咨询行业，人们做案例分析是有原因的，对吧？
But like, in the consulting world, people do cases for a reason, right?
他们想听的是，比如，如果我要计算一架747飞机上能放多少个乒乓球，该怎么想？
They wanna hear how, like okay, if I need, how many, you know, how many ping pong balls sit on a seven forty seven, right?
这是大学面试中常见的问题，他们不在乎答案，在乎的是你如何思考得出答案，因为这能体现一个人的思维能力。
This is a common question they would ask in, you know, a college interview, not because they care about the answer, they care about how you think through getting the answer, because it demonstrates a level of horsepower.
对我们来说，acquisition.com采用的一个培养高层领导力的方法是，我们不会给他们假设案例，而是直接给真实案例。
And so for us, I would say a practice that acquisition.com we use is to illustrate our higher level leadership roles, is we actually, instead of presenting them hypothetical cases, we actually present them with the real cases.
最坏的情况，我们也能获得免费咨询。
And so, know, worst case, we get free consulting.
最好的情况是，我们能找到有能力执行他们刚想出的解决方案的人。
Best case, we get somebody who is capable of implementing that solution that they just came up with.
因此，如果他们能运用我不熟悉的框架或经验，这些都会在我们正在处理的复杂问题中体现出来。
And so if they can use frameworks that I wasn't aware of, experiences that I'm not aware of, those things will come out in that complex issue that we're dealing with.
但对我来说，这样的面试至少要有趣得多，因为现在他们是在解决我的问题。
But it's also at least like way more interesting of an interview for me, because now like, they're solving my problem.
所以我参与度会高得多。
So I'm like way more engaged.
这是否意味着招聘经理或公司内部人员会提供关于公司的通用描述和一些数据？
So does that mean that like the hiring manager or maybe you would have someone at the company has like a generic description of the company and what some of the numbers are.
甚至可能是虚构的数据。
And maybe they're like fake numbers even.
然后每个岗位都会有需要帮助解决的具体问题，他们会提前收到一份两页的谷歌文档。
And then each role will have a specific problem that you need help solving for at the company, and they get like a Google Doc, like a two pager in advance.
就像这样：准备好你的想法，提前发给我，我会阅读，然后我们就此展开讨论。
And it's like, prepare your thoughts, send it to me in advance, I'm gonna read it, and then we're gonna have discussion about it.
所以我会根据职位级别和类型来区分。
So I'll differentiate this by level of role and type.
我现在谈论的是，因为我目前正深陷于C级高管的面试中，这就是我当前考虑的。
And so, I'm talking, because right now I'm like knee deep in like, C level, like interviews, so that's like what I'm thinking with right now.
如果我们想招聘编辑或销售人员，这些都是高度重复的岗位，因此面试流程等都有非常标准化的结构。
If we're trying to hire an editor, or a salesperson, those are roles that are super repeated and as a result have incredibly structured, you know, interview processes and whatnot.
以销售人员为例，我们会先给所有想邀请参加群面的候选人发一份话术脚本。
And so for those, like for a salesperson for example, it's like we're going to send a script, to every candidate that we wanna invite to a group interview first.
这样他们就能提前拿到脚本。
And so they're gonna get the script ahead of time.
我们想听听他们表演，比如一两分钟的剧本片段。
And we wanna hear them do, you know, a a one minute, two minute sound bite of the script.
如果他们连花时间多练习几次都不愿意，那表现肯定会很糟糕。
So if they if they didn't even take the the time to like, go through a a few times, like, they're gonna sound horrible.
所以立刻就能看出，要么是缺乏技能，要么是工作态度不行，总之我们可以淘汰这些人。
And so immediately, either they they don't have the skill, they don't have the work ethic, either way we can weed those people out.
我们只需要几分钟就能判断出来。
And we can tell within a couple minutes.
没必要浪费30分钟通话在那些想当销售的人身上。
So we don't need to waste a thirty minute call on somebody who's wants to be a salesperson.
我们可以让10个人轮流发言，每人一两分钟，就能看出谁有点真本事。
We can have 10 people on the call, one or two minutes, and we can find out if someone's got a little bit of game.
之后我们会说：'你这里搞砸了，调整下再试一次'。
From there, it's like, okay, then we'll say, hey, you messed this thing up, tweak it, try it again.
通过这种方式，我们能看出他们的可塑性、自我意识强弱以及学习能力。
When we do that, we get to see how coachable they are, how much ego they have, and how quickly they can learn intelligence.
我最近读了本
I actually read a
你推荐的书，是HubSpot销售团队创始人写的那本。
book that you suggested, the guy who founded HubSpot sales team wrote that book.
其实你这里用的方法和他如出一辙。
And I well, you do the same thing here.
书中明确指出智商是首要因素。
And in the book, he actually says that IQ is the is the number one.
他说，魅力固然重要，但并非最关键。
He was like, charisma is important, but it's not the most important thing.
关键在于快速学习的能力。
It's ability to learn quickly.
我认为部分原因在于，他们的客户群体是企业主，而我们也是，且我们大部分业务都是B2B模式。
And I think part of that also, because like they were selling to business owners and, you know, so do we and most most of our portfolio is b to b.
所以如果销售人员总被电话那头的人压制，对方会觉得正在跟一个无法解决问题的蠢货交谈。
And so, like, if if if if a salesperson is being like outgunned consistently by, you know, the people that they're getting on the phone with, the people on the phone feel like they're talking to somebody who's an idiot and can't actually help them solve their problem.
因此，我认为综合智力水平是至关重要的因素。
And so, yeah, I think general intelligence is such an important part.
老实说，最初只是销售部门，后来发现整个公司都适用这个规律。
But like, honestly, it's it started there, but like, kinda just see it across the organization.
你见过哪个卓越的机构专门雇佣蠢人？
Like, show me exceptional organizations that employ dumber people.
虽然确实存在，但特别是在我们从事的B2B高端业务领域，你需要真才实学。
Like, it's I mean, there are some, but especially in the in the in the work that we type that we do, b to b and higher level, you need horsepower.
就智力而言，我们看重学习速度，甚至能通过小测试验证学习效果。
So in terms of intelligence, like, rate of learning, and we can actually demonstrate them learning on a small level.
这个标准同样适用于编辑岗位。
And that works same thing with editors.
我们采用非常相似的筛选流程。
We follow a very similar process.
这里有些原始素材。
Here's some raw footage.
把你编辑后的片段发回给我们。
Send us a clip back with your edit.
我们可以只看最终成品，这样能让我们更客观地评判，比如有些人表达能力不强，但这不意味着他们不是好编辑。
We can look at just the final output, and that allows us to be more objective about, like, some people don't present well, but that doesn't mean they're bad editors.
而且我认为面试本身就是一项技能，就像其他技能一样，我不需要一个擅长面试的人。
And I think like interviewing itself is a skill just like anything else, and I don't need somebody who's great at interviewing.
我需要的是一个擅长编辑的人。
I need somebody who's great at editing.
对吧？
Right?
所以试着把这两者分开来看，最近莱拉教给我一个很有帮助的观点，她说有些人非常聪明但不擅长沟通。
And so trying to pull that apart and something that Layla's taught me that's been really helpful like for me lately has been, she's like, some people are incredibly smart but are not very good at communicating.
根据岗位不同，他们可能并不需要那么强的沟通能力。
And depending on the role, they might not have as much need for that level of communication.
所以这就变得有点...
And so that's where it gets a little
微妙了。
bit more nuanced.
但我想要...或者反过来。
But I want Or the other way around.
就像我...
Like I've
其实
actually
与那些极具魅力的人交谈过，他们的沟通方式令人赞叹。
talked to people that are very charming and they communicate wonderfully.
而我心想，我可不能成为这种事的受害者。
And I'm like, I can't fall victim to this.
你其实是个白痴。
You're actually an idiot.
我觉得你根本不知道自己在做什么。
I don't think you know what you're doing.
我以前雇过这些人。
I've hired these people before.
那是什么？
What was it?
有个说法是，最好找个长相丑陋的外科医生之类的。
There was a it was a like always go for an ugly surgeon or something like that.
是啊。
Yeah.
有某种剃须刀...我只是想先声明一下，我绝不认为我们在招聘方面完美无缺。
There's some there's some razor that I I just wanted to put my my little disclaimer out there, which is like, I by no means claim that we are perfect at hiring or anything like that.
和所有人一样，我们也会犯错。
We just like everybody, we take our licks.
但我觉得最难招的永远是领导层，因为选择更少，你可能会认同这点。
But I would say the hardest ones are always leadership because you have fewer like, you might appreciate this.
每当我走进企业家们的房间，我都会问：在座有谁已经创办过第二家或更多企业？
Whenever I whenever I into a room of entrepreneurs, I say, hey, who here is on more than, is is on their second business or beyond?
几乎整个房间的人都举起了手。
And like almost the whole room raises their hands.
我当时就想，好吧，不错。
I'm like, okay, cool.
现在，对于那些已经经营第二家或更多企业的人，你们当中有谁现在的企业发展速度远超第一家企业？
Now of those of you who are on your second business and beyond, who here at your current business grew way faster or past your first businesses?
然后几乎整个房间的人都举起了手。
And like almost the entire room raises their hands.
我总是在想，为什么会这样呢？
And I I always think like, so why is that?
所以我认为，最根本的原因是模式识别能力，尤其是在人才方面。
And so I think that at the most basic level, it's pattern recognition, but especially when it comes to talent.
比如你要建立一个百万美元规模的企业，首先你需要有营销职能、销售职能、交付职能等等，各方面都要具备。
And so like if you think about building like, let's say a million dollar business, it's like first you have us, you have some marketing function, you have some sales function, you have some delivery function, you know, whatever, you know, across the board.
有史以来第一次，当企业年收入达到百万甚至三百万美元时，这些工作就不再由你亲自完成，而是需要其他人来分担。
And for the first time ever, when as soon as, know, maybe a million, maybe it's 3,000,000 a year, whatever it is, like it's not you anymore, like somebody else has to do some of this stuff.
于是你第一次识别出这样的模式：哦，这个人擅长广告投放。
And so you you get your first pattern recognition of like, oh, this is somebody who can do some advertising.
这个人擅长销售业务。
This is some person who can do some sales.
这个人能做些基础管理工作。
This is a person who can do some low level management.
这个人能负责部分交付工作之类的。
This is a person who can do some, you know, some delivery or whatever.
基本上，你会一直挣扎并停滞在那个水平，直到找到一个真正有能力的人。
And so and you basically keep struggling and keep plateauing at that level until you find that one person who's like competent.
然后你会想，天啊，这个人居然能胜任这份工作，太不可思议了。
And then you're like, oh my God, you could do the job, this is amazing.
接着业务就会发展到下一个阶段，你知道的，遇到下一个瓶颈。
And then the business grows until that next level, you know, that next constraint.
于是整个公司各个部门都这样，一个接一个地，经历着为期六个月、十二个月的周期，不断面试、招聘、入职，就为了验证这个人是否称职，一旦发现不行，你就得从头再来。
And so then across the board by department, one by one, it's like, you have these six month, twelve month periods where you go through interviews, and interviews, and hiring, and onboarding, just to see if this person's competent, and then whenever they're not, you're like, I have to start over again.
然后业务基本上就停滞不前了。
And then the business basically stays where it's at.
所以我认为，我们对这些岗位的经验越丰富，就越清楚——比如SDR（销售开发代表）应该是什么样。
And so I think that, I think the the the more experience we've had on each of these roles of like, this is what, you know, SDR looks like.
SDR经理应该是什么样。
This is what SDR manager looks like.
成交专员应该是什么样。
This is what a closer looks like.
高级成交专员应该是什么样。
This is what a senior closer looks like.
成交经理应该是什么样。
This is what a closing manager looks like.
销售总监应该是什么样。
This is what this is what a director of sales looks like.
销售副总裁应该是什么样。
This is what a VP of sales looks like.
我确实花了不少时间才掌握这些不同层级的工作，而且显然还要跨部门运作。
Like it took me time to learn each of these levels and obviously do that across departments.
但过了那个阶段后，当你去拓展这些新业务时，你其实不是在创业，而是在组装业务。
But then after that point, when you go out with these new the new businesses you go after, you're not even building the business, you're just assembling it.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实会变得相当令人沮丧。
And that's becomes that's that's actually quite frustrating.
倒不是沮丧，而是个深刻的教训——如果非要概括的话，我猜大概在年利润达到500万左右，或者100万，也可能是50万的时候。
Not frustrating, but it's a hard lesson to learn because after if we had to generalize it, my guess is somewhere around 5,000,000 or maybe, like, a million a year in profit or maybe half a million a year in profit, honestly.
就像我从小在天主教学校长大，圣经里最著名的场景之一就是耶稣对彼得说：你不再是渔夫了。
Like, there's this I I grew up going to Catholic school, and there's this, like one of the most famous scenes of the Bible is, like, Jesus telling Peter is, like, you are you're no longer a fisherman.
你要来跟我一起工作，成为得人的渔夫。
You gotta come and work with me, and you are gonna be a fisher of men.
我觉得当营收达到500万时，你就必须转型成为人才的整合者。
And I think, like, once you get to, like, 5,000,000 in revenue, that's what you have to become as a collector of people.
这种转变很突兀。
And that is jarring.
对吧？
Right?
因为大多数人创业的初衷并非如此，但要让事业突破500万规模——虽然具体数字不好说——你就不得不开始整合人力资源。
Because that's not typically why a lot people have started their businesses, but in order to make something grow past 5,000,000, I don't know where that number's gonna be, but you start just having to collect human beings.
不。
No.
这就是游戏规则，我认为很大程度上只是对行为特征和技能的识别模式，你得说，哦，我了解这位副总裁，就像我曾有位销售副总裁，他们非常出色。
And it's the game, and and I think a lot of it is just a pattern recognition around behavior traits and skills, where you have to just say like, oh, I know what this VP I know what like, I had a VP of sales, they were awesome.
这个人在这里是什么样子？
What does this person look like here?
我也认为，这一点我现在才能说，毕竟我大概有十四年的商业经验了。
I also think, and this is something that like, I can only say now with like, I guess fourteen years of business experience.
我才刚开始收获这个，就是人才的雪球效应。
I'm just beginning to to reap this, which is the snowball of talent.
就是说，如果你经营过多家企业并且取得了好结果，长期善待员工，有些人就会开始追随你从一个项目到另一个项目，对吧？
Which is like, if you've had multiple businesses and you've had good outcomes and you treated people well over an extended period of time, some people start following you from thing to thing, right?
然后你就会开始拥有这样一个核心团队，他们很优秀，当你进行下一个项目时，他们都会支持你。
And then you start to have this core team that just like, they're like, they're good, like, and then when you do the next thing, like, they're all with you.
我觉得，虽然不确定，但我猜想再过二十年，那些喜欢我们运营方式、认同我们文化并彼此欣赏的人才团队会越来越壮大。
And I think that like, I don't know, but I would imagine that in twenty more years, the team of talent of those people who just prefer to operate the way we operate and like, like the culture that we have and like each other.
这更像是，如果有人以C级高管的身份加入，却没有过去共事过的人际网络，我会觉得这很奇怪。
It's more like, like if somebody comes in as a, as a C level exec and has no network of people that they've worked with in the past, I'm like, that's weird.
就像你在过去所有角色中都没有共事过的人，要么A，你认为他们是佼佼者（如果你不认为任何人是佼佼者那才奇怪），要么B，你认为他们是佼佼者但他们不愿意加入你的新事业，因为你不是个好领导。
Like you don't have anyone from all the past roles who you've worked with who either A, you think is a stud, which is weird that you don't think anyone was stud, or alternatively, you think they were a stud, they don't want to come to like your new thing, because you're not a good leader.
所以这是个很好的试金石，能检验这个人作为领导有多优秀。
And so that's a great like litmus test in terms of like how good of a leader is this person.
就像，他们的小黑本里都有谁，因为我们需要快速搭建这个职能部门，我期待你能带来一些这样的人选。
Is like, who do they have in their black book, because we need to build out this function quickly, and I'm expecting you to bring some of that to the table.
你最近雇用了哪些明显比你优秀或教会你一些东西的人？
Who have you hired recently that is significantly better than you, or has taught you something?
因为你现在担任的角色需要负责所有演讲，并为你的工作坊及合作企业进行大量教学工作。
Because you're in the role now where you have to do all the talking and a lot of the teaching for your and at your workshops and with the companies that you work with.
谁送你去上学？
Who takes you to school?
莎伦负责接送。
Sharron does.
莎伦是一位出色的跨性别总裁。
Sharron's a great a transgender president.
他学识非常渊博——我是说，他在很多领域都很有见地。他提到过两家价值20亿以上的公司，显然收购是我们的第三个目标，具体取决于第三方验证的进度。
He's so knowledgeable on the I mean, he's so knowledgeable on a lot of different things, but like, you know, he said two he said 2 plus billion dollar companies, and so obviously acquisition is, you know, the third that, you know, we're shooting for depending on, you know, when we have our third party validation.
但基本上，公司规模越大，我就觉得他表现得越好。
But basically, it's like the bigger the company gets, I feel like the better he gets.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就像在数据管道、基础设施、实时仪表盘这些他擅长的领域，我们该如何...该如何让财务成为武器？
Like the more in his wheelhouse he is in terms of like data pipelines, infrastructure, real time dashboards, how can we, like, how can how can finance get weaponized?
我想说莱拉不像肖恩——肖恩非常擅长财务职能，深谙税务影响、实体架构等专业领域，而我的专长则在于如何让大众了解产品。
I would say that Laila, not like, Sean's so good at the finance function and understanding just like just tax ramifications, entity structure, like, a lot of the things that I, you know, for me, my my my acumen is on like, how do we let people know about it?
如何让他们愿意为此付费？
How do we get them to give us money for it?
如何确保他们真心喜欢并推荐给朋友？
How do we make sure that they really like it and tell their friends?
这些基本上就是核心所在
Like that has been basically the core of
我的技能组合。
my skill set.
那个'是'包含你刚才说的最后那件事吗，是指产品吗？
Does that Is include the is the last thing you said there, is that product?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
Exactly.
除此之外的其他方面绝对不是我所说的核心核心所在。
And then but like everything outside of that is definitely not what I would say like my core core is.
莱拉在这方面非常擅长。
Like Leila's so good at that.
我们讨论的很多内容其实是我在转述莱拉的，你知道的，齐卡或者说莱拉在人际关系和人才方面的处事方式。
Like a lot of what we're talking about there is me somewhat relaying Leila's, you know, Zyka or you know, Leila's MO around people and people and talent.
但肖恩非常擅长企业价值构建，就像很多上市公司CEO擅长的那些事情，这也是他的背景所在。
But Sean's so good at like enterprise value structuring, just like a lot just a lot of the things that, you know, a public CEO would be good at and that's and that's where he comes from.
但我也要说，根据个人观察，真正的AAA级人才首先他们不是雇员。
But he's also is like and I would say like, from an observation personally, like, the true AAA talent, one, they're not employees.
他们是合作伙伴。
They are partners.
而且他们自视为合作伙伴。
And they see themselves as partners.
如果你不把他们视为合作伙伴，那他们就不是加分项，你懂的。
And if you don't see them as partners, then they are not a a plus, you know.
你如何区别对待合作伙伴和员工？
How do you treat a partner differently than an employee?
比如，我怎样才能知道自己是否有合作伙伴？
Like, how would I know if I have a partner?
嗯，想想看，如果你因为不确定该怎么做而去找他们，而他们给你建议，对我来说这就是合作伙伴。
Well, think if you go to them, because you're not sure what to do, and they're giving you advice, to me that's a partner.
如果你一直在指挥他们，说我们要这样做，我们要那样做，这本身没什么问题。
If you're constantly directing them and saying this is what we're gonna do, this is what we're gonna do, there's nothing wrong with that.
但他们算不上是思想伙伴。
But they're not a thought partner.
我还把这作为衡量我们真正C级高管的重要标准：遇到复杂问题时，我是否愿意和这个人讨论？
And I also use that as a great litmus test for like the true C level executives that we have is like, do I want to talk to this person about this complex problem?
如果我不寻求他们的建议，那就意味着我不认为他们能带来增值。
If I don't seek their advice, then it means that I don't see them as a value add.
所以他们就不是那么不可或缺，这可不是好事。
And so then they're not like, they're not super essential, which is not good.
但确实如此，所以我觉得...另外还有一点，这也是我最近才更深刻体会到的。
But yeah, so he, I think that and then the other piece, and this is something again, I feel like I've learned more recently.
因为我目前正深度参与C级事务。
Because I'm super deep in C level stuff right now.
但这就像从云端到泥土的落差。
But it's clouds to dirt.
如此垂直整合，全栈技能。
So vertically integrated, full stack skill sets.
我认为最优秀的销售领导者能够做到从SDR级别直接打电话让潜在客户预约，一直到制定销售策略，甚至开始与营销融合。
And so like I think like the best sales leaders can go like they can hop on the phone and get a cold lead to book an appointment from an SDR level, all the way to building sales strategy of like, which starts to merge into marketing.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们需要关注什么样的信息传递？
It's like, what what kind of messaging do we need to look at?
哪种类型的客户画像最有可能购买我们的产品？
What kind of avatars have the highest likelihood of buying our stuff?
我们如何将其融入我们的流程和脚本中？
How can we weave that into our process and our scripting?
我们如何缩短培训时间并快速上手新销售代表？
How can we, you know, cut our training time and onboarding new rep?
他们确实在思考整个销售组织，但同时几乎能胜任每个岗位。
Like, they're really thinking about the sales organization, but they can also do almost every job.
我至今还没遇到过不是全栈的真正杰出人才。
And I just have yet to find like, truly exceptional people that aren't full stack.
本期节目由HubSpot赞助播出——因为只利用20%的商业数据就像和只会用表情符号发信息的人约会。
Today's episode is brought to you by HubSpot because using only 20% of your business data is like dating somebody who only texts you in emojis.
首先，这很烦人。
First of all, that's annoying.
其次，你会错过大量内容。
And second, you're missing a lot of the content.
但这就是当今大多数企业的运营方式。
But that's how most businesses are operating today.
除非使用HubSpot，否则他们仅利用了20%的数据。
They're only using 20% of their data unless you use HubSpot.
那时你所有的电子邮件、通话记录和聊天信息都会转化为洞察力，帮助你发展业务，因为这些数据至关重要。
That's when all your emails, your call logs, your chat messages, they turn into insights to help you grow your business because all that data makes all the difference.
了解更多请访问hubspot.com。
Learn more at hubspot.com.
所以你现在因为规模问题正在竞争，而我...以及你需要的人才类型，你所在的行业在人才方面竞争非常激烈。
So you're right now, because of your size, you're competing, and I and I'm and the type of person you need, you're competing with a lot you're in a very competitive industry in terms of talent.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以我猜你正在和一些人工智能公司竞争。
And so I I imagine you're competing against some of the AI guys.
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你在与许多科技公司竞争。
You're competing against a lot of tech companies.
还有价值和私募股权。
And the value and p PE.
他们提供的价值，我猜就是大量资金，而我认为你也有能力做到这一点。
And the value that they provide, I would had to guess, is just lots and lots of money, which I think you have the ability to do that.
对。
Yeah.
我们支付很多。
We pay a lot.
但他们也有能力提供类似股权的东西，或许像是彩票。
But they also have the ability to offer like equity for this like lottery ticket maybe.
我不知道还有什么。
I don't know what else.
但我确信他们提供的很多东西是你无法提供的。
But I'm sure there's many things that they offer that you can't.
除了市场价或高于市场价的金钱，你还能给他们提供什么？
What do you have to offer to them other than market rate or above market rate money?
是的。
Yeah.
是成长和影响力。
It's growth and impact.
比如，如果你问公司acquisition.com里的每个人，他们最看重的是什么，那一定是成长。
Like, if you were to ask everybody in the company acquisition.com, what's the number one thing that they come for is growth.
就像，那些公司没有一家在成长，不，不是没有一家。
Like, they like, none of those companies are grow like, not none.
所以很多那些公司没有我们这样的增长速度，因此这里有大量的职业晋升和机会。
So a lot of those companies aren't growing at the rate that we're growing, and so there's so much career advancement and opportunity.
我们非常注重绩效。
We're very meritocratic.
所以，任何人都可以来这里并晋升，不论年龄，甚至不论资历。
And so like, anyone can come here and move up independent of of age, you know, even even independent of tenure.
比如，有个小伙子九十天前刚来，入职时职位就不低，结果又获得了大幅晋升。
Like, had a guy who came here ninety days ago and got a very large promotion after coming in at a pretty high role already.
就因为他表现得太出色了。
Just because he demonstrated he was great.
我们觉得，太棒了。
And we're like, great.
我们正好有这个空缺职位。
We have this opening.
我们认为你是最合适的人选。
We think you'd the best fit.
而增长意味着公司收入增加，这样就能把员工提拔到更高职位。
And the growth is the the revenue of the company, which then means you pull people up to higher roles.
对。
Yep.
本质上，要吸引顶尖人才，公司必须快速发展。
Then basically, in order to attract a plus talent, you have to you have to grow fast.
没错。
Yeah.
我是说，确实。
I mean, yeah.
正是如此。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
你必须快速发展。
You have to grow fast.
我认为这是一个良性循环，发展越快，吸引的人才越多，进而推动更快发展。
And I do think that's a virtuous cycle, which is like the faster you grow, the more talent you get, which grows you faster.
同样地，反方向也可能形成恶性循环。
And so like, it can also be vicious in the other direction.
大多数情况下反方向确实是恶性的。
It's mostly vicious in the other direction.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
你在萎缩，而且没钱给员工发工资。
You're shrinking and you have no money to give people.
是啊。
Yeah.
情况会变得很艰难。
It gets it gets tough.
但你看，很多企业年增长率只有20%左右。
But you are like, a lot of businesses are like growing only 20 or 20% a year.
我不知道。
I don't know.
有些人喜欢说“是的”。
Some like Yeah.
还行，但数字平平。
Fine, but mediocre number.
这就好比，如果他们缺乏增长——不是指支付员工薪酬的资金增长，而是为了吸引合适人才加入的增长——那他们该从何着手呢？
And it's like, where do they start if they don't have growth in order not growth in terms of just the money to pay people, but growth in order to impress the right people to join them.
我认为这完全取决于你所处的机会层级以及面临的竞争池水平。
I think it all depends on what, like, the opportunity and the level of like, pool that you're competing against.
要知道，如果你是一家真正的人工智能公司，竞争会异常激烈。
You know, like, you are an AI true AI, you know, company, you know, is super competitive.
但反过来说，如果有人要为我们开辟新业务线，我可以直接承诺市场需求是有保障的。
On the flip side though, like, if someone's gonna start a new division for us, I can just say like, I can guarantee you demand.
能做到这点的人不多。
Not a lot of people can do that.
所以问题不在于这个项目能否成功，而在于这是否是我们现有需求的最佳利用方式？
And so, it's not a question of whether this will work or not, is it's is this the best use of the demand that we have?
因此这就变成了一个机会成本的问题。
And so it becomes an opportunity cost question.
但对很多人来说，某种程度上加入ACQ风险更低——因为我们需求旺盛，机会遍地。
But a lot of people, in some ways, it's like, it's less risky to come to ACQ because we have so much demand, and there's just, there's so much opportunity.
大致就是这样。
That's basically it.
比如说，如果你在为吉米工作，他说过，你知道的，就用个不同的品牌。
Like, if you're working for Jimmy, he said, you know, just use a different brand.
比如MrBeast，他的需求几乎是无限的。
Like, mister Beast, like he has virtually a limitless demand.
所以如果他突然说，嘿，你能帮我随便搞点什么，随便选个东西。
And so if if if he's like, hey, can you help me spin up whatever, pick a pick a random thing.
如果MrBeast要说，嘿，我们搞个雨伞品牌吧。
If if mister beast was gonna say, hey, let's start an umbrella brand.
这并不意味着他肯定会卖雨伞。
It doesn't mean like he for sure will sell umbrellas.
只是这不是他资源的最佳利用方式。
It's just not the best use of his resources.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们需要有人能进来识别最适合我们需求的载体，然后当然还要能执行到位。
And so it's like we need somebody who can come in and recognize the best vehicle for for the demand that we have, and then be able to obviously execute it on it.
但很多人没有那种内置的保障，你知道的，他们就是没有。
But a lot of people don't have that like built in guaranteed, you know, they just don't have that.
所以这实际上风险要大得多，尽管可能还有其他所谓的优势。
And so that becomes actually significantly riskier despite, you know, what other quote perks might exist.
所以这就好比，你有了需求保障，基本上就保证了能有多快发展就有多快发展。
And so it's like, you've guaranteed demand, you've basically guaranteed growth as as as fast as you can grow, we can grow.
而且我们给的报酬也依然非常丰厚。
And that's and we also still pay exceptionally well.
因此，综合这些因素，我们能够吸引到非常非常优秀的人才。
And so with though, know, those things put together, we can get very, very good talent.
还有一些人是纯粹被使命驱动的。
And there's also people that are just very mission driven.
比如我们有很多人加入时会说，我关注你们的内容已经多年了，当看到招聘人员联系我时，我简直兴奋极了。
Like we have a lot of people who come in and are like, I've consumed your stuff for years and I saw the the recruiter reached out to me and I was stoked.
就是这样简单。
And that that was it.
某种程度上说，就像第17号私募基金那样，这些几乎都变成了同质化的商品。
Like, there's just in some ways, it's like, you know, private equity number 17, it's like they're all it's almost it's just commoditized.
他们的业务已经商品化了。
Like, the their business is commoditized.
这实在没什么意思。
It's just not that interesting.
所以他们只能在价格上竞争。
And so they have to compete on price.
因此他们的价格就是他们的竞争力。
And so their price is their comp.
而如果你有一个价值主张，比如从员工角度出发的'全垒打'offer，而不是产品角度的'全垒打'offer。
Whereas if you have a value proposition, like what's the grand slam offer from an employee perspective, rather than a grand slam offer from a product perspective.
因为获取人才的过程与获取客户的过程完全相同。
Because it's still the exact same process of acquiring talent as it is to acquire customers.
这只是一个反向漏斗。
It's just a reverse funnel.
你认为大多数人在招聘时最容易犯什么错误？
What mistakes do you think most people make when it comes to hiring?
哦，天哪。
Oh, man.
或许你可以换个说法回答。
Maybe you could say, maybe answer it differently.
同时招聘六七个职位。
Hiring for six or seven roles.
你认为我可能会犯哪些错误？
What mistakes do you think I'll I'll likely make?
具体是什么职位？
Well, what's the role?
或者说有哪些职位？
Or what are some of the roles?
对。
Yeah.
我们可以举个典型例子，比如销售岗位。
So we could say what's like a really a salesperson.
这个比较简单。
That's a that's a simple one.
但我还在招聘其他职位，比如部门主管。
But I'm hiring other roles, so I'm hiring chapter leads.
我的业务分为13个部门，现在正为每个部门招聘管理人员。
So we have 13 chapters that we my business is based in, and we're having hiring people to manage each chapter.
我是说，最简单的答案就是妥协，但这太难了，因为需要权衡取舍，这些事情都受时间限制。
I mean, the easy answer is settling, but it's so tough because there's there's trades because these things don't exist outside of time.
你知道，就像我必须填补这个职位，我想找到合适的人选，特别是对我们这样的高层来说，这是我目前最关心的事。
You know, it's like I have to fill this role, and I wanna find somebody, especially if us, obviously for us at this c level, because that's the top of mind for me.
就像，我必须找到这样的人——当我跟他们通电话时，我会想，我一定要得到这个人。
It's like, I have to have somebody that when I'm on the phone with them, I'm thinking, I have to have this person.
如果我没有这种感觉，但又觉得，天啊，我真的需要填补这个职位。
And if I don't have that, but I'm like, man, I really need this role.
所以如果我从'必须填补这个职位'的角度考虑，通常找到的都不是对的人。
And so if it if I'm thinking from the like, I really have to fill this role angle, it's like, usually not the right person.
但如果我想的是'我不管有没有合适职位，都必须招这个人'，那通常就是对的人。
If I'm thinking like, I don't even care if I have a role for this person, I have to get them in, it's usually the right person.
你愿意支付比最初预期更高的薪资吗？
Are you willing to pay them more than you originally thought was reasonable?
愿意。
Yes.
百分之百愿意。
A 100%.
这根本不是问题。
Not even a question.
你有没有过这种情况——必须筹够钱，希望能通过销售业绩来支付这个人的薪资，但就是非招不可？
Have you ever have you ever been like, I gotta come up with enough money, like, hope I can get enough sales to afford this person, but I have to have them.
我没有遇到过后者，因为我们公司现金流非常健康，所以这不是问题。
I haven't had the second part because we're a super cash flow positive company, so like that hasn't been a problem.
我的意思是，从根本上说，只要我能大致估算出这个职位的投资回报率，那没问题，我会做的。
I mean fundamentally, long as I can just pencil out the ROI of the role, then yeah, I'll do it.
我的意思是这不过是资本回报罢了。
I mean it's just a return on capital.
那么你期望的回报率到底是多少呢？
What's what what's your desired return though?
太棒了。
Amazing.
哦，是啊。
Oh yeah.
嗯，就像，我是说这可是谷歌啊。
Well it's like, I mean it's Google
表格能让你输入'太棒了'吗？
sheets allow you to put amazing in?
等于提醒你一下。
Equals Mind you.
我认为作为企业家，我们能获得的最高资本回报是人才。
Think I think the highest returns on capital we get as entrepreneurs is talent.
就是这样。
Like full stop.
比如还有什么地方能让你获得10倍、20倍，甚至100倍的回报，而且还能持续稳定地做到这一点。
Like what where else do you get 10 x, 20 x, you know, returns, 100 x returns, and and and can do so reliably.
人才就是少数几个能实现这种回报的领域之一。
Like talent is one of those places you can do it.
我还要说的是，通常组织层级越高，套利空间就越大。
I will also say that typically the higher up the org, the higher the arbitrage.
你们解雇动作快吗？
Are you fast to fire?
我们会持续提速。
We continue to get faster.
我来说这个。
I'll say that.
我认为我们在加速。
I think we get faster.
我得说我们的解雇机制确实会受到客观条件的影响。
I would say that our firing practices do somewhat rely on the constraints.
就像有时候，你知道，莱拉这么说，但有些火情其实不是厨房着火。
So like sometimes, you know, Layla says this, but like some fires aren't aren't kitchen fires.
更像是...像是...像是车道上的垃圾桶着火了。
They're like the the the trash can in the driveway is on fire.
这确实是个问题。
It's like it's a problem.
我们会处理，但这并非当前制约业务发展的关键。
Like, we'll get to it, but it's not the thing that's limiting the business.
所以如果某人表现未达预期，但其岗位目前并不制约公司发展，那替换他们可能不会成为我们的首要任务。
And so if we have somebody who's not as good as they should be, but they're not in a role that's right now like limiting the company, it's probably not gonna be our first priority to to to take them out.
可一旦该岗位成为瓶颈，问题就会迅速暴露并得到解决。
But as soon as that becomes the constraint, then it like quickly gets unearthed and then it gets handled.
你有关注过戴夫·波特诺伊和Barstool体育吗？
Have you ever followed Dave Portnoy, Barstool Sports?
嗯。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
就是，你知道的，他这人很怪。
Like, you know, he's quirky.
对吧？
Right?
他太疯狂了。
He's crazy.
他有句玩笑话，但也不算玩笑，他说：'我不开除人'。
He one of his jokes, but it's not a joke, he's like, I don't fire people.
他的意思是：'我就是不想解雇人'。
He's like, I just I don't wanna fire people.
如果员工是废物，我就继续付工资，让他们待在角落里当废物。
And if they're a loser, I'll just keep paying them, and they're gonna sit in the corner and be a loser.
但我绝不炒人。
But I don't fire anyone.
我觉得这特别搞笑。
And I kinda thought that was hilarious.
好笑的是他经营内容公司，能把这事做成内容，通过嘲讽想开除的人来获取投资回报。
It's funny because he's a content company, and he can make content out of it and get ROI out of, like, just making fun of someone who wants to fire.
但我真的被震惊到了，没想到他会这么看这件事，因为他看起来是个相当冷酷的人。
But I was, like, shocked that that would be his take on it because he seemed like a pretty brutal guy.
不是冷酷，而是非常直率，而且他解雇人时毫不手软。
Not brutal guy, but he seems like very blunt, and he has no problem firing people.
然后他就说，我就是这样。
And he was like, I do.
我在这方面很糟糕。
I suck at it.
我不喜欢冲突。
I don't like the confrontation.
我不喜欢让别人难过。
I don't like people feeling bad.
所以我干脆就不这么做。
And so I just don't do it.
我宁愿亏钱。
I'd rather lose money.
当我问你关于解雇的事时，我以为你会说，是啊，我解雇人很快。
And when I asked you about firing, I thought that you were gonna be like, yeah, like I fire fast.
但我从你语气里察觉到一丝犹豫，听起来你可能在解雇人时动作很慢——可能是我过度解读了你的情绪或语气。
But I sensed a small bit in your voice where it sounded like potentially you were slow to fire because maybe I'm I'm I'm reading too much into your sentiment or your tone of voice.
但就像是...是啊。
But it was like Yeah.
我就是不喜欢这种事。
I just don't like it.
嗯，我觉得没人会喜欢这样。
Well, don't think anybody likes it.
我认为如果业务受限，我们会迅速解雇相关人员，显然那个人正在限制我们。
I think we're we're fast to fire if it is the constraint of the business, and clearly that person is the one limiting us.
就像，我们不会为了不进行一场舒适的对话，而牺牲公司的发展和所有将职业生涯托付给我们的人的机会。
Like, we will not sacrifice the company's growth and the opportunity of all the people who've trusted us with their careers, to to not have a conf you know, a a comfortable conversation.
这也有不同的程度。
There's also levels of this.
比如说，我们可以用红、黄、绿来划分，对吧？
And so like, let's say there's like, you know, red, yellow, green, right?
如果有人是绿色，那他们表现很好，没问题。
If someone's like, well green, they're great, fine.
所以基本上，可以用黄、橙、红这三个级别。
So basically, just, maybe like yellow, orange, red, let's use that as the three levels.
对我来说，如果有人只是不完全胜任，但还能完成工作，只是表现不如预期，且肯定无法成长或承担新机会，那对我来说就是黄色级别。
For me, like, if somebody's just not, doesn't have the complete competence, but is not like, they can still do their job, but they're not doing it as well as they should and they're definitely not gonna grow and they can't take on new opportunities, then that to me is like a yellow.
如果他们确实无法胜任当前角色，那就是橙色级别。
If they're like, for sure, like, they can't actually do their their their role right now, that's an orange.
红色级别意味着你无法胜任当前角色，而这个角色对我们的发展至关重要。
If red is like, you can't do the role right now and that thing is required for us to grow.
所以这其实是业务需求与个人能力不足程度的结合。
And so that's that's kinda like, would say like, we it's it's it's a combination of like, what does the business need and how incompetent is the person.
因此解雇的速率，我认为取决于这两方面因素。
And so the rates of firing, I think would depend on both of those things.
显然，在理想情况下，我们希望尽快让所有不合适的人离开。
Obviously, we wanna like, in a perfect world, we get everyone out who's not a fit as soon as humanly possible.
只是有时候，有些人确实能通过良好的反馈和指导扭转局面。
It's just that sometimes some people do turn it around with good feedback and coaching.
这种情况大概有一半的概率会发生。
That probably happens half the time.
就像，我在问自己为什么会对这个决定感到内疚？
Like, I guess asking myself the question like, why do I feel bad about making this decision?
然后确保自己不是在为了局部利益而损害整体利益。
And then trying to make sure that I'm not acting in the global bad for local good.
就是局部与整体的权衡。
Like local versus global.
我把这看作是自己试图突破那种糟糕感觉的方式——当你不得不解雇某人时的那种感受。
Like I think about that as like my way of trying to break through that like terrible feeling you have and you're like, I have to let this person go.
如果不这么做，就是在用短期的舒适换取长期的不适。
It's like, well if I don't, I'm choosing short term comfort over over long term discomfort.
我认为人生大部分时候都可以归结为人们不断重复这种选择。
And I think most of life can be boiled down to people doing that over and over again.
当他们选择局部胜利时，就是在用短期利益换取整体损失。
As they take the local win, they take the short term win for the global loss.
如果这种情况发生得足够多，就会导致全局性的灾难。
It's like if you do that enough times, get a global a global catastrophe.
因此，这正是我试图避免的。我把更大的利益作为框架，就像我的精神盔甲，让我在面对可能让对方难过的情况时有所准备。
And so, that's what I try to avoid, and I just put the the greater good as the frame, as my like little, my little spiritual armor, if you will, of going into it knowing that like this person might get upset.
这甚至可能在短期内极大地影响这个人的生活，但我觉得我欠其他无数人的，他们把自己的事业和生活某种程度上都交到了我的决策过程中，我欠他们的。
And this might even, you know, dramatically inconvenience this person's life in the short term, but like I owe to the other zillion people who also have put their, you know, their careers, their their their lives in in, you know, my hands to a degree from a decision making process, like, owe it to them.
这就是让我克服犹豫、更快做出决定的原因。
And so that's what kinda gets me over the hump to pull the trigger faster.
《创始人播客》。
The Founders Podcast.
你听过David Senra主持的那个吗？
You ever heard that by David Senra?
嗯。
Yeah.
它很棒。
It's awesome.
我很喜欢。
I love it.
而且我喜欢阅读历史上企业家的传记。
And I love reading biographies of, like, historical entrepreneurs.
我从《创始人播客》中经常得到的一个共同启示是耐心，基本上就是坚持做某事几十年。
And a common thing that I get from the Founders Podcast is patience, and basically, like, doing something for decades.
这是我从你的内容中得到的另一个启示，就是事情需要很长时间。
That's another thing that I've gotten from your content, which is like things take a long time.
它们比你想象的要花更长时间。
They take longer than you think.
它会比你想象的更难。
It's gonna be harder than you think.
我相信那是真的。
And I believe that to be true.
但我也看到了像你这样的人。
But then also, I see people like you.
如果你去看你的YouTube，我想每个描述都像是'26岁，我曾在这里'。
And if you go to your YouTube, I think on every description, it was like, '26, I was here.
27岁，我曾在这里。
Age 27, I was here.
年龄让我觉得，我不认为他很有耐心。
Age and I'm like, I don't think he was very patient.
那读起来不像是一个有耐心的人，因为我想你，如果我没记错的话，我只是在编造。
That that doesn't read that that that doesn't read like a patient person because I think you, if I remember correctly, I'm I'm just making this up.
我想你大约在31岁时创办了acquisition.com，然后到了33或34岁，你们就有了研讨会业务，可能已经做到了数千万，大概八位数，业务中位数八位数，而且非常盈利。
I think you started acquisition.com at something like the age of 31, and then by, like, 33 or 34, you had the seminar business that you guys do, and it was probably doing many tens of million probably 8 figures, mid 8 figures in business and very profitable.
我就觉得，嗯，那看起来不像是...我是说，那相当快。
And I'm like, well, that doesn't seem like something that was I mean, that was pretty fast.
你总是谈论要有耐心，但你的行动速度惊人，而且快速取得成果？
How do you talk about being patient all the time, but you're moving at a a wicked a wicked pace and getting results quickly?
我认为耐心是相对于你追求的结果而言的。
I think the patience is relative to the outcome that you're going for.
就像如果你想攀登珠穆朗玛峰，你在海拔上的上升速度会比试图攀登小山丘的人快得多。
And so like if you if you're trying to climb Everest, right, your rate of ascension in terms of altitude is gonna be significantly faster than somebody who's trying to climb a foothill.
不过增长的百分比可能是相同的。
The percentage growth might might be the same though.
因此，一个有耐心的人可能愿意以每年1%、2%或4%的速度向他们的终极珠穆朗玛峰攀登，但关键在于珠峰的4%增速远比丘陵的4%要快得多。
And so a patient person might be willing to grow at one, two, 4% per year towards their ultimate Everest, but it's just that 4% of Everest is significantly faster than 4% of a foothill.
所以绝对差异会有所不同，但相对差异——也就是我用来衡量自己的基准——正是让我感到有耐心的所在。
And so the absolute difference will be different, but the relative difference, which is like what I'm quote measuring myself against is where I feel patient.
我认为这就是宏观耐心（抱歉，应该说宏观速度）、微观速度这个概念极其重要的原因。
And I think that's where the whole macro, you know, macro speed sorry, macro patience, micro speed is, is super important.
我们依然有截止日期，仍需推动进展，必须以紧迫感行事。
We still need we still have deadlines, we still need to move the ball forward, we still have to act with urgency.
我们仍要追问：怎样才能把完成时间缩短一半？
We still have to ask the question, like, would it take in order to do this in half the time?
我们能否只用五分之一的时间完成这件事？
Would it take for us to do this in a fifth of the time?
我们能做到吗？
And can we do that?
那就这么做吧。
Let's do that.
说实话，我认为管理者（或称为驱动者、运营者，随你用什么术语）的很大一部分工作就是做这件事。
And I think I honestly see a lot of the job of the manager, or the driver, the operator, depending what term you wanna use, as doing that.
就是持续地牵引——把未来更快地拉到现在。
Which is just consistently pulling, like pulling the future forward faster.
即使在战术层面，比如开团队会议时你问'这个最快什么时候能完成？'
And like, when you're having, you know, even at the tactical level, like, you're having a team meeting, and you say, hey, when can you get that done by?
他们会给出一个日期，而初级管理者往往只会被动接受这个截止时间。
They will give you a date, and then, the fob like, you know, level one manager level zero manager doesn't ask when there's when there's when the deadline A level one manager would be like, would just accept the deadline.
就像二级经理会问：那么，现在还有什么阻碍你完成这件事？
Like a level two manager would be like, well, what else do you have, that's blocking you right now from getting that done?
他们可能会说：嗯，我有这三件事要处理。
And they might say, well, I have these three things.
这时候他们可能会说：这件事比其他那些更重要，所以先做这个。
And at that point, they might say, well, this is more important than those things, so do this first.
那么根据这个新情况，你的新截止时间是什么时候？
And then with that new knowledge, what is your new deadline?
他们可能会说：好吧，不用等到周末，我可以提前两天完成。
And they might say like, okay, instead of end of week, I can get it, you know, two days earlier than that.
比如问：你觉得这项工作实际需要多少小时？
It's like, how many actual hours do you think this work will take?
他们可能会回答：我觉得大概需要四小时。
And they might say like, well, I think it'll probably take four hours.
然后你说：好，现在中午12点。
And it's like, okay, well, it's noon now.
那为什么不能今天下午4点前完成？
So why isn't it not 04:00 today?
对吧？我觉得愿意持续追问的人会发现对方其实会说：其实我今天就能完成。
Right, and I think somebody who's willing to continue to ask those questions, and they're like, well I could do it, you know, today.
我只是想给自己留点缓冲时间。
And so I just wanted to give myself some time.
这时候就问：为什么？
It's like, why?
没错，所以我认为这就是那种持续的推动力。
Right, and so I think that's, that consistent pulling forward.
关键在于，这几乎像是需要一些小型对抗性对话，才能让整个组织以极快的速度前进。
And the thing is, is like, it's almost like mini confrontational conversations that I think are required in order to move an entire organization at breakneck speed.
我是说，多看看埃隆（马斯克）吧，你知道的，从商业角度寻求灵感。
I mean, look at Elon a lot, you know, as an ask, you know, inspiration from a business perspective.
你知道的，他所有的竞争对手都在谈论他那种近乎疯狂的紧迫感。
And you know, all of his competitors talk about that, just like the maniacal sense of urgency that that he carries.
我认为很大程度上在于持续挑战：这需要什么代价？值得我们去做吗？付出的代价是否值得？
And I think a lot of it is that, it's just like consistently challenging like, what would it take and is it worth us doing, like is it worth it for what it would take?
如果答案是肯定的，那我们就去做。
And if the answer is yes, then let's do it.
很多人倾向于在他们认知框架或现实范围内做决定，而这些决定除了他们自己的臆测或主观设定的时间线外毫无依据。
And a lot of people kind of like, they make their decisions within their frame or their realm of reality, when that's not based on anything besides their own conjecture or some arbitrary timeline of what they think it should take.
我一直很好奇人们如何达到那种境界，比如我高中和大学时曾是田径运动员。
I've always been like curious as to how people get to that level because, like for example, I was a a track athlete in high school and college.
我记得高中时觉得自己牛逼坏了，因为我比其他人强太多。
And I remember thinking in high school, I'm the shit because I was so much better than, like, everyone else.
但当你接触到一级联赛选手时，你会觉得：天呐。
And then you, like, get around division one guys, and you're like, oh my god.
我...我简直不值一提。
Like, I'm I'm I'm nothing.
水平差距实在太大了。
Like, there are so many levels.
然后你就像被提升到了那个层次。
And and then you, like, get risen up to that level.
或者你并没有。
Or you don't.
又或者你受伤了，就是做不到。
Or you get hurt and you just don't.
你会想，哦，我就是不够好。
You're like, oh, I'm just I'm not good enough.
然后当我跟你这样的人混在一起，或者想到埃隆·马斯克这种有超级高强度标准的人时——比如读到你的某个观点。
And then when I'm hanging out with guys like you or when I think of Elon Musk who have these, like, super intense things, like, I'll read something you put out.
你会说，'我拿到新线索后60秒内就会打电话'。
You're like, when I get a new lead, I call them in sixty seconds.
如果我做不到，就雇专人负责这件事，她的全职工作就是60秒内拨出电话。
And if I can't do that, I hire someone, and her full time job is calling someone in sixty seconds.
我当时就觉得，这太有道理了。
And I'm like, that makes so much sense.
为什么我之前觉得15分钟内回电就足够了？
Why did I think that calling someone in fifteen minutes was adequate?
这只是个小例子，但放大到造火箭这种事也一样——'我要在仓库里闭关三周'。
And this is just a really small example, but then it goes all the way up to like building rockets, you know, where it's like, oh, I'm not I'm not gonna leave the warehouse for three weeks.
你觉得人们怎样才能把标准提高到这种极端水平？
So how do you think that people get their standards to be raised to this like extreme level?
比如，是不是因为接触过其他极端人士，才意识到'天啊还有这么多事能做'？
Like, were you around other extreme people and you're like, oh my gosh, there's so much more to do.
这现在成了标准。
That's now the standard.
还是你认为有些人天生就极端，他们自己达到那种境界后还能带动他人？
Or do you think that some people are just born extreme and and they they just get there and they bring others to that level?
我觉得这可能是个先天后天的问题，坦白说，我也不知道答案。
I I think it's probably a nature nurture question and to be clear, don't know the answer.
这是我的个人看法。
This is my two cents.
我一直是个非常执着的人。
I've always been a really intense person.
就像我父亲在我整个成长过程中总说要保持平衡。
Like my my father, my whole upbringing used to always say like balance.
他总是说，你太不均衡了，太不均衡了。
He's like, you're so unbalanced, you're so unbalanced.
因为每当我发现某件事，就会只想做这件事直到完成，不管那是什么。
Because like as soon as I'd find something, would just wanna do nothing besides that thing until I had like finished it or you know, whatever it was.
所以我确实认为有这方面的因素。
And so I do think there's a component of that.
不过另一方面，我确实有过被打破认知框架的经历，来自那些走在我前面的人。
The other aspect though is like, I for sure have had, call it beliefs broken, you know, frame shifts from people who were ahead of me.
比如观察埃隆（马斯克），他拓展了我对可能成就的认知边界。
Like me even observing Elon, you know, it it it stretches the horizon of what, you know, I think we can accomplish.
而且想想埃隆36岁时在做什么，某种程度上其实很让人振奋。
And, you know, it's actually in some ways very refreshing to think like, you know, where was Elon when he was 36?
对吧？
Right?
对比起来，你知道的，56岁还是多少岁，不管他现在多大年纪。
Versus, you know, 56 or whatever, you know, however however old he is now.
他说自己的职业生涯经历了指数级增长，在我看来，这确实非常鼓舞人心，只是需要时间积累。
And he said had such a exponential like crescendo in his career that to me, it's like, it's actually very like inspiring that it just it just takes time.
我认为很多企业家需要时间磨练，因为要成为优秀的企业家需要掌握太多技能。
And a lot of the, I think what takes time for entrepreneurs is there's just so many skills required to be a good entrepreneur.
而且你必须样样都精通。
And you have to be like very good at all of them.
这就是为什么我把创业视为个人成长的最佳途径。
That's why I see entrepreneurship as the single greatest path of personal development.
你会实时收到自己很糟糕的反馈，然后大多数人到某个阶段会取得一定成功，接着就会说：'这就够了'或者'我不愿意为此牺牲其他方面'。不同企业家答案可能不同，但绝大多数企业家都想赢得人生这场游戏，而商业只是人生大游戏中的一环。
Like you get real time feedback that you suck and then at some point, most of us on some level, get to a level of success and then say like, this is enough or I'm not willing to make the trade offs beyond this point in other areas because it depends on the entrepreneur that you ask, but I would say the vast majority of entrepreneurs want to win the game of life and business as a component is one of the games within the larger game of life.
有些人会迷失在自己参与的游戏里，或者他们主动选择那个游戏对自己更重要。
Some people get lost to whatever game they're in, or they just consciously choose that that game is more important to them.
我是说，像史蒂夫·乔布斯就成就斐然。
I mean like, Steve Jobs accomplished a lot.
我觉得有很多记录都显示，他的个人生活因为职业生涯而受到影响。
I think there's there's been a lot that's been documented about his, you know, personal life suffering, you know, as as a result of his professional career.
可以说他对人类做出了巨大贡献，但从微观层面看，他的人生过得很艰难。
You could make an argument that he was amazing net positive for humanity, but on the micro level, he lived a harder existence.
埃隆·马斯克可能也是这类人。
Elon is probably another one of those people.
很多人不想要埃隆的生活，而他说你们也不会想要我的生活。
Lot of people don't wouldn't want Elon's life and he says you wouldn't want my life.
这可能就是我现在的很多空闲时间，比如洗澡时的状态——当你知道想要的东西的价格时，就像进商店看到喜欢的东西却不买也没关系。
That's probably a lot of my a lot of my free like shower time right now is like, when you know the price of the thing you want, like it's okay to go into a store, see something you like, and then not buy it.
为什么你现在要质疑这个？
Why are you questioning that now?
是不是因为你刚完成这个重大发布，达到了一个里程碑，然后突然觉得'天啊，我一直想要这个，现在终于得到了'？
Is it because you just had this huge launch and you like hit a hit a milestone that you're like, oh my god, I wanted this the whole time and I finally got it.
也许我并不像自己以为的那么想要它？还是说你确实感觉...是啊。
And maybe I didn't want it as as much as I want or do you feel Yeah.
嗯，我在30天内同时经历了三件事。
Well, I had a confluence of three things happen within thirty days.
首先是一个持续四年多的项目终于结束，这占据了我很多洗澡时的思考时间——关于整个1亿美元的融资轮和Money Models的发布。
So I had, call it a four plus year project come to an end, which was a lot of my shower time, was around the whole $100,000,000 series and the culmination of the the money models launch.
这是第一件事。
So that was one.
显然，在项目发布时很快就产生了财务上的结果。
There's obviously, you know, a financial outcome that was, you know, quickly, you know, happened, at the launch.
这是第二件事。
That's the second thing.
然后第三件事是我母亲在30天内去世了。
Then the third thing is my mother died within 30 days.
所以那段时间里我的情绪非常复杂，各种感受交织在一起。
And so it was a very interesting mix of different emotions within that period of time.
正因如此，我有很多时间去思考，什么才是最重要的？
And so I have, I've had a lot of time to reflect on like, what are the things that matter most?
就像写作一样，我想大家都听过这样的建议：先写常规的悼词，然后试着那样生活。
And so, like in writing, I mean, I think everyone's heard the advice like regular eulogy and then try to live that way.
只不过大多数人实际上不会花时间写自己的悼词。
Except most people don't actually take the time to write their own eulogy.
但在为她撰写悼词时，有趣的是看到各部分占比——如果把悼词比作饼图，会有多少比例用于描述她的成就。
But in writing her eulogy, it was it was interesting to see like what portion, if we had a pie chart of this eulogy is gonna be dedicated to her accomplishments.
她是个相对有成就的人，但与其他部分相比——那些关于奉献精神和品格的描述——
And she was a relatively accomplished person, compared to the rest of it, which was about service and character.
其中绝大部分内容都是关于奉献与品格的。
And the vast majority of it was service and character.
想到这里，我就觉得：好吧，如果要根据我悼词中各部分占比来分配时间，我现在的饼图比例肯定大不相同。
And so in thinking about that, it's like, okay, well then if I were to apportion my time based on what my eulogy percentages would be, I would probably not have the same pie chart that I do now.
话虽如此，你要知道人生有很长的岁月。
That being said, you know, life is has a lot of years.
也许饼图中那最初两三句话对应的部分，可能就占据了十五年光阴。
And so maybe that slice of pie chart that's the first two or three sentences or whatever might be fifteen years.
之后还会有另一个十五年或三十年，这些时间...
And then there's just another period of fifteen years afterwards or thirty years afterwards that are Maybe.
会让那张饼图变得不同。
Difference That chart.
是啊。
Yeah.
如果你活着，对吧？
If you if you live, right?
如果你像她那样活着
If you live like she had
一场离奇的事故，所以她死得很突然。
a freak accident, so hers was a sudden death.
就是这样，嗯。
And so, yeah.
所以我经常思考的就是这些权衡取舍。
So that's what I think about a lot is is the trade offs.
因为我觉得大多数时候，显然我有很多内容发布出去，只是因为人们总问我关于努力工作的看法。
Because I think most of like, because obviously I have a lot of content that's going out there just because people tend to ask me stuff about hard work.
我认为我之所以经常发推谈论这个，是因为它一直是我最关注的事。
And the reason I think I tweet so much about it is because it's always top of mind for me.
就像我们一开始聊过的，我没有固定的内容计划，不会盯着热门推文想着怎么跟风创作。
So like, I don't have a we talked about this at beginning, but like, I don't have a a content schedule, I don't have like a you know, I'm looking at trending tweets and thinking, how do I do my own spin on this?
那不是我的内容创作方式。
Like, that's not how I make content.
我只发当下最关注的事，发出来的内容就是我在思考的东西。
I tweet whatever is top of mind, and the things that come out are the things that I'm thinking about.
你可以从中看到我在特定时期的思想轨迹，如果把一个月的推文汇总起来，就能看出'Alex现在在想这个'。
And you get to kind of like see the the trends of whatever I'm thinking about in a specific season, but if just take the aggregate of like a month of tweets, it's like, Alex is thinking about this right now.
是啊，你就像在打官司时谈论坚韧、毅力或克服困难这类话题。
Yeah, you're like in a lawsuit, and you're like talking about like being tough or having grit or like you know, like overcoming an obstacle.
是啊，
Yeah,
人们的背叛之类的事情已经成为常态
people betraying you and like all this stuff has been a part
你赚了这么多钱却不懂感恩，明白我的意思吗？
you're making all this money and it's like gratitude, you know what I mean?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我认为创业艰难主要源于两个因素。
And so, I think there's two things that think make entrepreneurship hard.
第一是不确定性。
Number one is uncertainty.
就是那种终日如影随形、令人窒息的决策不确定性，每天每时每刻都在折磨着你。
It's just the the absolute kind of like soul crushing uncertainty that is always present throughout your day, every day, while you're making decisions.
总有个声音在提醒你可能会失败——而你永远无法预知结果。
And it's just always this idea like you might lose and you don't know.
另一个难点在于：你明知必须用已知的代价去换取未知的收益——当然这里也存在不确定性，就是那个未知的上行空间。
And then the the other component that makes it so difficult is, the known quantities that you believe that you're going to have to trade in order to get the unknown, I guess there is some uncertainty there too, the unknown upside.
所以我们总能计算出要付出的代价（下行风险），却永远算不清可能获得的收益（上行空间）。
And so it's like we can always quantify the downside, the thing that we trade, and we cannot quantify the upside.
我经常思考这个问题，因为我发现很多创业者——特别是那些追求生活方式的创业者（虽然这个群体经常批评我，这没关系）
And so, I think about that a lot because I think a lot of entrepreneurship, you know, lot of entrepreneurs that I see, especially common with like, you know, the lifestyle entrepreneurs because I get tons of flack from that community, and that's okay.
就像...我们最终都只会达到自己愿意付出相应代价的层次。
Like I just, I just see that it's like, we all get to whatever level that we're willing to trade, trade for.
但我只把它们看作是权衡取舍。
But I just see them as trade offs.
我认为人们大多数的遗憾，是只想要未选择道路的好处，却没有考虑那条路上本可能遭受的损失。
And I think most of the regrets that people have are wanting the upside from a decision or path not taken without taking into account the downside that they didn't suffer.
这是为那些年收入至少300万美元的企业主准备的。
This is for the folks out there who have a business that does at least $3,000,000 a year in revenue.
因为在这个阶段，你终于可以从多年埋头创业中抬起头来，意识到两件事。
Because around this point, that's when you're able to look up after being heads down for years building your company, and you realize two things.
第一，你已成就斐然，但离最终目标仍有很长的路要走。
One, you've done something great, but you're still a long way from your final destination.
第二，当你环顾四周时会发现：我完全是孤军奋战。
And two, you look around and you realize, I am all alone.
我已超越了同辈，这意味着你现在要独自做出千万美元级的决策。
I've outrun my peers, which means you're now making $10,000,000 decisions alone by yourself.
而这时平庸就会悄然滋生。
And that is when mediocrity can creep in.
我的公司Hampton通过组建企业家评审团来解决这个问题——这群经过筛选的同侪会督促你负责，指出你的荒谬言行，并为你指引方向。
My company, Hampton, we solve this problem by giving a room of vetted peers of other entrepreneurs who are gonna hold you accountable, call you out on your nonsense, and help show you the way.
因为事实上，你所在城市里真正理解你处境且经历过这些的人凤毛麟角，他们很难寻觅。
Because the fact is, is that there's only a tiny number of people in your town who know what you're going through and who have been there, and they're hard to find.
最大的风险不是失败。
The biggest risk is not failing.
你拥有一家运转良好的公司。
You have a company and it's working.
你会没事的。
You're gonna be fine.
但最大的风险是十年后醒来，发现自己在事业和生活上几乎毫无成长，那才真叫糟糕。
But the biggest risk is waking up ten years from now and saying, shit, I barely grew in business and in life.
对于像你这样有抱负的人来说，我们想帮你避免的正是潜力浪费和后悔莫及。
And for people like you who are ambitious, wasted potential, and regret is what we want to help you to avoid.
我们已经组建了许多这样的团体，拥有上千名成员，我知道这套方法确实有效。
We have made so many of these groups and we have a thousand plus members, and I know this stuff actually works.
它能改变你的人生。
It can change your life.
它改变了我的生活，也必将改变你的。
It changed mine, and I know it will change yours.
所以来看看吧。
So check it out.
Joinhampton.com。
Joinhampton.com.
现在的饼图是什么样子？
What's the pie chart like now?
我觉得目前几乎全是工作。
I mean, think I think for now it's it's almost entirely business.
大概有15%精力放在婚姻相关事务上，比如婚姻和Leila的事，另外15%可能专注于健康方面。
I would say like, I probably have 15% that's probably dedicated to like marriage stuff, like marriage, Leila stuff, and probably 15% that's dedicated to like health stuff.
所以我大概是70%工作，15%健康，15%婚姻。
So I'm probably like 70% work, 15 health, 15 marriage.
当你在思考它应该是什么样子时，你会想到什么？
What do you think when you're in the when you're thinking about what it should be?
你有没有想过，嗯，我想试试这种风格或者这种？
Do you ever think like, well, I would like to try on this style or this Yeah.
我想看到一个商业占比在25%到30%的世界。
I think I would love to see a world where like, 25 to 30% is business.
我很想看看那里会发生什么。
I'd love to see what happens there.
我也认为可能会有这样的情况——说这话时我清楚自己的立场——我正接近一个阶段，更多时间投入并不会带来更大产出，真正起决定作用的是我做的决策而非具体工作。
I also think that there might be like, and I say this understanding like the position that I'm in to say this, which is I'm approaching a point where more hours really doesn't like, so much more of it at this point will be the leverage of the decisions that I make, more than the work that I do.
所以我觉得...我现在正真切感受到这种转变，因此可能
And so I think I'm I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling that transition right now, and so it might be
不过这本来可以更早发生的，我是说，你知道的。
That could have been earlier though, I mean, know Yeah.
有点
Bit
不管怎样，我现在确实感受到了。
I just feel it now, for whatever that's worth.
他有个不错的团队，我想。
He's got a good team, I guess.
是的，团队正在变得越来越好，我们有大量真正顶尖的人才加入，对此非常兴奋。
Yeah, the team is the team is getting is getting better and better and better, we have a huge amount of of true a level talents coming in, very excited about that.
但没错，关键杠杆在于决策层面。
But yeah, a of the leverage is on the decision making.
也许只是因为我五年前的一些赌注如今已经开花结果并获得了回报，这反过来又带来了更大的杠杆效应。
And maybe it's just that some of the the bets that I made five years ago have come to fruition and have paid off, which then then just give more more leverage.
对吧？
Right?
因为从根本上说，产出就是规模乘以杠杆。
Because I mean, fundamentally output is just volume times leverage.
所以，我的意思是，我或许能让之前设计的算法发挥更大作用。
And so, I mean I could maybe make the algorithm I did even more.
埃隆依然工作得非常拼命。
Elon still works a lot.
所以如果你用高杠杆做大规模，你就能造火箭、打造万亿级企业。
So if you do a lot of volume in with a lot of leverage, you build rockets and build trillion dollar businesses.
就像，你知道，我我我这么说并不是觉得自己能免疫于此。
So like, you know, I I I don't say that thinking that I'm somehow immune to it.
25%的业务。
25% business.
还有什么？
What else?
哦，可能只是分布会更均匀些。
Oh, it would probably just be a more even spread.
大概会是，比如说25%吧。
It would probably be like, maybe 25%, you know.
我想健康方面可能还是会保持在15%左右。
I probably keep I think health would probably be still around 15 ish percent.
我可能会改变在那里的做法，但我认为我从健康类别中获得了适当的份额。
I might change what I do there, but that I think I I have an appropriate amount from the health the health category.
我想我就把莱拉归为家庭类吧，是的。
I assume I'll just I'll I'll bucket Layla as just family Yeah.
妻子之类的。
Wife at all.
我只是觉得比例会发生变化。
I I I just think I just think the percentages will change.
你知道吗？
I you know what?
我就直说吧。
I'll just say that.
我不知道具体是什么。
I don't know what they are.
我认为它们会与现状有所不同。
I think they will change from what they currently are.
对此我很有信心。
I feel confident in that.
有什么非事业追求是你想加进去的吗？
What's a non business pursuit that you'd wanna put in there, potentially?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得我需要先腾出空间，才能填补这个空缺。
And I think I I I need to I think I need to create the space in order for that to get filled.
我觉得我不会找不到事情来打发时间。
Like, I don't think I will have a difficulty in finding things to fill my time.
我想
I think
我不太了解你，我们算是朋友，但关系并不特别亲密。
I I don't know of you to have any you we're we're buddies, but not we're not terribly close.
但我...我们其实没那么熟。
But I I don't I've never We're not, like We're not that close.
不。
No.
我们算是朋友吧，断断续续认识有几年了，但我从没见你对什么爱好感兴趣。
We're, like, we're, like I would say we're we're friends, but, like, we've known each other for off and on for a couple years now, and I've never seen you shown interest in hobbies.
比如，我本人就喜欢历史。
Like, over the like, I like history.
我喜欢买衣服。
I've loved I like buying clothes.
我觉得衣服很酷。
I think clothes are cool.
我喜欢汽车。
I like cars.
我喜欢摩托车。
I like motorcycles.
我有自己热衷的爱好，但除了你妻子、健身和生意，从没听说你对其他事物感兴趣。
Like, I have, like, hobbies where I'm like, I'm passionate about x, y, and z, but I have never heard of you to like anything other than your wife and working out and business.
还有事业。
And business.
是啊。
Yeah.
这些就是我的三大重点。
Those have been my my big three.
我想说的是，这是我十五年来第一次——其实不止十五年，因为我大概15岁就开始想赚钱了。
I would say that I I would I would define myself as for the first time in in fifteen years, not even fifteen because I wanted to start making money when I was like 15.
所以算起来应该有二十一年了。
So it's I guess it's been twenty one years.
这是我人生中第一次愿意接受其他优先事项的存在。
It's the first time in my life where I've I've been open to having other priorities.
虽然我还不知道那些是什么。
I don't know what they are.
老实说。
Like straight up.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道它们会是什么。
I don't know what they will be.
也许最终我会发现，我就是喜欢现在的生活。
And maybe I maybe I'll just discover that I I like the life that I have now.
但这是我第一次真正愿意接受生活重心的改变。
But it's the first time that I've been like, I am open to this mix changing.
安德鲁·罗斯·索尔金。
Andrew Ross Sorkin.
他出了本新书叫《1929》。
He's got this new book called nineteen twenty nine.
我正在读这本书。
I'm in the middle in the middle of reading it.
我想你是读科幻小说的吧？
I I think you read science fiction.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
纯粹就是。
It's just purely.
我喜欢科幻小说。
I like science fiction.
我喜欢一些比较热门的，但我更是个历史迷。
I like some of the more popular ones, but I'm a big history guy.
这本《1929》讲的是大萧条及其成因。
And this book, nineteen twenty nine, it's about the Great Depression and how it came to be.
基本上，信贷那时刚刚兴起。
And basically, credit had just become a thing.
通用汽车发明了信贷，这样人们就能贷款买车，后来其他家电也能贷款购买了。
So credit, GM invented it so you could get a car on a loan and then eventually other appliances on a loan.
然后西尔斯公司就说，哦，我们会搞个分期付款的方案。
And then Sears was like, oh, we'll do a layaway thing.
我们会给你信用额度，这样你就能买衣服。
We'll give you credit so you can buy clothing.
接着花旗银行——那时候还叫国家银行——他们说，咱们为股票和债券也这么搞吧。
And then Citibank, which back then was called National Bank, they said, let's do it for stocks and bonds.
这样你就能借钱，我们会让你买股票。
So you can borrow money, and we will let you buy stocks.
他们以10比1的比例操作，意思是你在花旗银行每有10美元股票，我们就借你100美元。
And they did it at a 10 to one ratio, meaning for every $10 of stocks that you have with Citibank, we're gonna loan you a $100.
所以大萧条的发生是因为当市场崩盘时——这种情况偶尔会发生，疫情期间也出现过——就像多米诺骨牌效应，因为所有人都过度杠杆化了。
And so the Great Depression happened because when the market went under, which happens occasionally, happened during COVID, it was just like a domino effect because everyone was incredibly over leveraged.
他讲了个关于这个的精彩故事，书里大概有20个人物。
And he tells this amazing story about it, and there's, like, probably 20 characters in the book.
他们就像是那个时代的杰米·戴蒙。
And they're like the Jamie Dimons of the time.
是啊。
Yeah.
书中详细描述了这些人物的日常生活，非常引人入胜。
And they give you the day to day life of these characters, and it's really fascinating.
目前我从这本书里得到的最大收获——其实已经有很多收获了。
And my biggest takeaway from this book so far well, there's been a bunch of takeaways.
但其中一个收获是，这些银行的高管们工作并不那么努力。
But one takeaway is that the executives of these banks, they didn't work that hard.
当时他们就像在杰米·戴蒙的公司一样，年收入相当于1亿美元。
And they were like they were in the Jamie Dimons at the time, and their income was the equivalent of a $100,000,000 a year.
有个人作息规律，比如他六点起床。
And, like, one guy had a routine where he's like, I'm up at six.
我会锻炼身体。
I exercise.
我十点到办公室。
I'm at the office at ten.
我五点前回家。
I'm home by five.
另一个人也有类似的作息，但他会休暑假带家人去欧洲。
Another guy had a similar routine as that, but then he would take off he took summer off to go to Europe with his family.
去欧洲意味着要坐三周的船。
And going to Europe meant taking a three week boat.
安德鲁·卡内基也是如此。
And same with Andrew Carnegie.
安德鲁·卡内基在19世纪末很出名。
Andrew Carnegie was popular in the late eighteen hundreds.
他大概在1920年左右去世。
He died probably in 1920 or so.
他也几乎不怎么工作。
He did the same thing where he would barely work.
我读到过一些类似案例，比如HubSpot创始人布莱恩·哈里根刚发了推文。
And I read about some of these, like, I think Brian Halligan, who's the founder of HubSpot, just tweeted.
他说，朝九晚五的工作可移不动山。
He's like, you don't move mountains working nine to five.
所有这些包括你我在内的人都在谈论努力工作，但我看到其他例子时就想，不努力反而能完成这么多事，是不是很疯狂？
And all these people, yourself included and myself included, talk about hard work, but I like see all these other examples and I'm like, isn't it crazy how much you can get done by actually not working hard?
最近，我对其中一些例子产生了兴趣。
And lately, I've been like interested by some of those examples.
你读过相关的内容吗？
Have you ever read about that?
我没读过，但我确实在一些比我更成功的人身上观察到了这种现象。
I haven't read about it, but I've definitely observed it with some people that you know, are further ahead than than I am.
我觉得最难的总是：我该模仿山顶的风景，还是模仿攀登的过程？
I think what's what's always difficult is like, I model the the the top of the mountain or do I model the climb?
我是该根据某人现在的生活状态，来推测他们当初是如何达到这个高度的吗？
Like am I trying to extrapolate how someone currently lives for what they did to get there?
这种想法总是很危险，我常提醒自己：要知道我们处在不同的人生阶段。
And that one's always a really dangerous one that I try and catch myself on, which is like, you know, we're in different seasons.
所以我必须确保比较的是彼此的春天，而不是把我的冬天和他们的春天作比较。
And so I have to make sure that I'm comparing this person's spring, you know, to my spring, not not my winter to their spring.
就像...我能列举很多这样的人，我读他们的书时就想：你根本就没怎么努力啊！
Well, like, all these, like, I'm just I can list so many people where I read these books, and I'm like, you don't work hard at all.
搞什么鬼？
What the hell?
这让我不禁想问：我到底在干什么？
It's like, what am I doing?
比如泰德·特纳就是另一个例子。
Like Ted Turner was another guy.
哈哈，泰德·特纳在创建CNN成为亿万富翁的同时，还是一名职业帆船赛手，经常一消失就是三个月去参加帆船比赛。
He he Ted Turner, when he built CNN, which made him a multibillionaire, he was also a professional sailboat racer where he was gone for three months at a time racing sailboats.
是啊。
So Yeah.
总之，我能举出无数类似的例子。
Anyway, I could I could give you so many examples of that.
简直太疯狂了。
It's just crazy.
等等...
When when wait.
让我们先深入讨论这个观点，比如说在你的业务范围内——
Let's let's take that for a second because I think that like let's say let's say like within your business.
假设你能找到完美的山姆，就当是个思维实验吧？
Let's say that you could find the perfect Sam, just as a thought routine, right?
这个完美的山姆能被雇佣，能完成你支付他做的任何事，而且做得和你一样好。
The perfect Sam that you could hire and whatever you could pay the perfect Sam to do, and he could do everything you can do just as well as you can.
这就意味着，用当前利润减去支付给山姆的报酬后，你几乎能保留现有收入。也许两年后这个完美山姆还能把蛋糕做大，让你赚得比现在还多，而你完全不用工作。
It's like, so whatever your current profit is minus Sam's compensation, if you could do that, then you would have almost the same amount of money you have now, and maybe in two years Perfect Sam would grow the pie, so that you're making the same or more than you're making right now, but you're still not working at all.
如果真是这样，那么在假设情境下，我们距离找到能100%替代当前工作的人只差一次招聘，业务还能持续增长。
And so if that's the case, then it's like we're always like in the hypothetical world, we're one hirer away, from somebody who could do 100% of what we're currently doing, and the business would be able to continue to grow.
关于耐心这点，我认为大多数创业者会想：找到那个人、交接工作后，我就能开始下一个项目了。
I think to that point about patience, it's like, most entrepreneurs are like, well I'll find that person, I'll give it to that person, and then I'll start the next job.
而其他人可能会说，我就是不打算开始下一份工作，然后愿意让公司继续和我组建的团队一起成长。
Whereas some other people just say like, I'm just not gonna start that next job, and then just be willing to let the company continue to grow with the team that I've assembled.
我认为从根本上说，无论你工作与否，只要业务能正常运转，
And I think both like, fundamentally, if you work or you don't work, as long as the business performs these functions,
它就会发展壮大。
it will grow.
我听到你说了一些挺有意思的话。
I heard you say something kind of interesting.
很多人对课程制作人嗤之以鼻。
So a lot of people shit on course makers.
但当我回顾自己的人生时，其实我买过很多课程。
And I was thinking about my life, and, like, I've bought a lot of courses actually.
其中很多不仅很棒，还改变了我的生活。
And many of them were were not only great, they changed my life.
确实。
Yeah.
我的好兄弟内维尔·比多拉有个文案写作课程，
One of my good buddies, Neville Bidora, had a copywriting course.
改变了我的生活。
Changed my life.
我参加了这个课程。
I took it.
它彻底改变了我的人生。
It changed my life.
是啊。
Yeah.
还有一大堆其他的。
And there's been a bunch of others.
你买过或上过什么课程吗？
Have you ever bought or taken any courses?
如果有的话，哪一门课程对你产生了颠覆性的改变？
And which one, if you did, was game changing for you?
真正改变我人生最大的因素其实是人际网络，比任何东西都重要，比如能进入那些在我当前领域甚至跨领域比我更优秀的人的圈子。
The biggest things that have really changed my life was actually like, had been had been net like networks of people more than anything, like getting in the room with people who are ahead of me within the current realm or even across realms from me.
这才是真正最改变我人生的东西。
That was the stuff that really changed my life the most.
从战术层面来说，书籍、课程、工作坊、研讨会这类东西绝对是有效的。
For sure from the tactical level, books, courses, things like that, workshops, seminars, like those things absolutely.
我就是非传统教育体系的产物。
Like I'm at I am a product of the alternative education world.
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