亚西尔如何在三年内将Chatbase从零打造至1000万美元年经常性收入

我当时快被逼疯了，出门都不忘带着笔记本，因为根本没有自动化测试，也没有任何告警系统。

Like, I it got to the point that I didn't go out without my laptop because I didn't have, like, any automated testing or, like, have any alert system.

我只能每隔五分钟就手动刷新页面，问一个问题，才能知道产品是不是还在正常运行。

The only way I would know if the product works is, like, I need to refresh it and ask a question every five minutes.

所以那时候我出去跟朋友玩，也得带着电脑，那大概持续了六七个月，生活全被这样占满了。

So that, yeah, I would go out with friends, like, when I did go out with my laptop, and, like, that's that was, like, my my my life for maybe six, seven months.

那后来是什么时候开始转变的？Chatbase 现在到底是个什么样的产品？它是怎么从最初的样子一步步发展过来的？

And so so when did when did, like so what is Chatbase today, and when did that evolve from how did that evolve from okay.

最早的版本就是一个能聊天的 PDF 工具。

First version was this PDF chat tool.

你现在都已经有客户了，具体是怎么回事，你来给我们说说。

I mean, now you're, like, you know, customer like, mean, you you tell us.

你现在到底在做什么？

What what what are you?

这个转变是怎么发生的？

How did it evolve?

是的

Yeah.

这个过程其实是很缓慢的。

It was it was very, like, gradual.

其实也不是。

Actually, no.

在早期，我得赶紧决定走哪条路，因为从Chat with Data Start那里冒出的选择实在太多了。

Like, I think in the in in in the early days, I I needed to make a decision on, like, which route to take because there were so many options from that chat with Data Start.

选择真的多到数不清。

There were just so many options.

我看到很多人走了各种不同的路。

And I saw so many different people go so many routes.

很多和我同期起步的人，一直停留在用PDF聊天的阶段。

A lot of people that started at the same time just continued to chat with PDF.

但我觉得那不是个好主意，因为迟早会碰到模型的瓶颈。

But I don't think that was a good idea because, of course, that's gonna come to the model.

而且，没错，那个包装层太薄了，几乎就跟ChatGPT本身的功能融为一体了。

And, yeah, like, it's like, the wrapper was so thin that it just, like, became part of the what ChatGPT offers.

所以我早就料到会这样。

So I knew that was gonna happen.

于是我就是看市场需要什么，通过跟客户交流，他们不断告诉我：嘿，你得这么做。

So, like, I what I did was I just saw, like, what the market needed, and what I saw from talking to customers and from them, like, telling me, like, forcing me, hey.

他们说：我们需要这个功能，只有当你能让这个聊天机器人嵌入我们的网站，或者集成到我们的邮件系统里、自动回复邮件时，我们才会付钱。

Like, we need this feature, and the only way we're gonna pay you is if you have, like if you can allow me to put this chatbot on my website or allow it to, like, deploy it on my email so it responds to my email.

慢慢地，尤其是后来，确实如此。

And just, like, over time, especially, like yeah.

第一年过后，我们就很清楚了，我们走的路是B2B的AI代理，也就是面向客户的智能助手。

Like, after the first year, it became clear that the route we're taking is, like, B2B AI agent, like, customer facing agents.

从那以后，就一直这样了。

And then, yeah, like, it's been that ever since.

不过当然了，过去两年里，‘代理’的定义，还有客户支持能做什么，都发生了很大变化。

But, of course, like, the definition of an agent and, like, the definition of, like, what customer support is able able capable of doing just changed a lot over, like, the last two years.

是的

Yeah.

所以现在，我们已经不再是一个GPT包装器了。

So now, like, the rebrand that happened is we're not a GPT wrapper.

我们是一个集成平台。

We're a we're a harness.

对。

Yeah.

我注意到，'集成平台'现在成了新的'包装器'。

So I've seen that I've seen the word harness as the new new new wrapper.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like it.

是的。

Yeah.

但这个'集成平台'听起来确实更高端一些。

But but the harness, yeah, harness feels more premium.

你懂的吧？

You know?

感觉你真是在做点实事。

It feels like you're doing something.

你刚才说我不太喜欢那个说法的时候，我很认同。

I liked it when you said, like, I don't

我不想做个花里胡哨的包装。

want a sparkling wrapper.

没错。

Yeah.

他说，我不想做个薄薄的封装层。

He's like, I don't wanna be a thin wrapper.

我想做个厚实的封装层。

I wanna be a fat wrapper.

对。

Yes.

它是

Is it

真的。

is true.

我觉得，所有的应用层都在努力变得越来越臃肿，像一层层封装，因为你不想离模型更新只差一步之遥。

I think I think, like, like, all the application layers are they're trying to be, like, fatter and fatter, like, kinds of wrappers because you don't wanna be, like, an update away from from the models.

不过现在，Chatbase 我们在为商家构建面向客户的智能代理。

But, yeah, now now Chatbase is we're building customer facing agents for businesses.

我们的想法是，为你打造一个基于你全部内容训练的代理，比如你的网站、文档，然后它能接入你的系统。

So the idea is you we build you an agent for your brand trained on all of your content, so your website, your documentation, and then it connects to your system.

你的 CRM、Stripe、数据库，所有 API 都能连上，它能执行各种操作。

So your CRM, your Stripe, your database, all of your APIs, all of that, it can it can take actions.

它还能排查问题，因为我们能在沙盒环境中模拟操作。

And it's also able to troubleshoot issues because we're able to, like, credit in a sandbox.

比如，像运行 CLI 工具那样，用 CloudCoder 和 Codecs 打开文件，像真人一样诊断问题。

So, like, things like, you know, like, like running a CLI tool, like, for example, with, like, CloudCoder and Codecs to be able to, like, open files, like troubleshoot an issue the same way a human would.

这主要是面向客户支持的那部分。

And then that's that's mainly, like, the the customer support side.

但我们做的不止这些。

But we're not only doing that.

很多客户还用我们来拓展与客户的其他接触点。

We a lot of our customers are using us also for more touch points with their customers.

比如销售引导、客户筛选、收集潜在客户之类的。

So, like, sales onboarding, like, qualification, collecting leads, all of that.

因为这个理念很简单。

Be because the idea is simple.

它的核心就是，作为一个能对话的智能代理，成为你公司的对外界面。

The idea is this is, like, the interface to to your company that's an agent that's conversational.

它对你的业务了如指掌。

It knows everything about your business.

而且已经接入了你的所有系统。

It's connected to your systems.

它可以在Slack上遇到问题时主动问你，然后更新自己的知识库。

It can, like, meant like, like, ask you a question on Slack when it's stuck and then update its knowledge base.

它还能自动处理一些后台任务。

It can, like, do log running tasks.

所以，它的核心理念就是作为你公司与客户之间的代言人，无论客户通过邮件、在线聊天还是电话联系，它都能应对。

So, yeah, like, the idea is it's it's an ambassador for for your company to your customers regardless of the channel, like, whether it's email, chat chat, voice, all of that.

所以。

So

没错，你说得对。

See, you Yeah.

这真是

This is

你们官网上的品牌标识挺不错的。

You got some pretty nice logos on your homepage.

比如查克·伊奇就是其中之一。

So Chuck E Cheese being being one of them.

Opal，那是摄像头吗？

Opal, is that the camera?

Opal摄像头？

Opal camera?

Opal是那个手机应用。

Opal is is the mobile app.

它就像是

It's like the

很好。

Great.

我买了。

I'll take it.

好的。

Yeah.

美诺的炉灶做得非常棒。

Miele, they make very good cookers.

是的。

Yeah.

F 45 训练。

F 45 training.

这些人是自己注册使用的，还是签了企业合同的？

Are these guys self serve or are they, like, on enterprise contracts?

他们一开始是自己注册使用的，后来我们把他们转到了企业合同上。

So they they they came self serve and then we moved them to enterprise contracts.

所以，是这样，是的。

So what Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

企业业务和自助服务业务分别占多大比例？

What part of the business is enterprise versus self serve?

你是怎么看待这个分布的？

Like, how are thinking about that?

是的。

Yeah.

当然，早期完全是自助模式，就像产品驱动增长那样。

So so, of course, like, early on, it was only self serve, just like PLG.

你直接注册就行。

You just sign up.

你付钱。

You pay me.

就能使用产品了。

You get access to the product.

但我觉得，到了某个阶段，往高端市场拓展是合理的，我们过去七八个月一直在这么做。

But but I think after a certain point, it it makes sense to to go up market, and that's what we've been doing, like, the last, like, seven, eight months.

有效果吗？

Is it working?

有效果，确实有起色。

It is it is working.

我觉得这之所以有效，是因为我们已经有不少大公司，其实还没把产品用到极致。

I think I think it's working also because we already have a bunch of, like, like, big companies that are not, like, using the products to it to its, like, fullest potential.

所以很大一部分工作就是帮他们做到这一点。

So a big part of it is just, like, working with them to do that.

是的。

Yeah.

然后自然而然就签下了企业级合同。

And then, like, you just end up with an enterprise contract.

客户成功这一块，作为副产品，其实也属于企业级谈判的内容。

Like, that customer success element as a byproduct is also an enterprise discussion.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

因为我刚开始做 Chatbase 的时候，根本不懂这个世界是怎么运作的。

Because I didn't know, like like, when I when I started Chatbase, I didn't know how the world works.

你明白吧？

You know?

我本来以为，确实如此。

I I assumed, like I agree.

对。

Yeah.

大家都觉得产品该像我这样用，比如我注册了Stripe。

Everyone uses, like, products the same way I use them, like because, like, I I signed up to Stripe.

我就直接填了公司的信息。

I put I I just put, like, my business information.

我有了自己的Stripe账户。

I have my Stripe account.

我去用Vercel的时候，

I go to Vercela.

也是这么做的。

I do the same thing.

就是那种超长的销售周期，企业级合同，还得跟好几个团队来回沟通。

It's, like, the idea of, like, like, long sales cycles and, like, enterprise contracts and, like, back and forth with, like, multiple teams.

其实我们的技术团队根本就是个外包公司。

And, actually, like, our tech tech team is, like like it's actually, like, an agency.

我们根本不用自己动手，这完全不属于我们的业务范围。

We don't even, like, work like, it's not even a part of our business.

你得去跟他们沟通。

You have to talk to them.

这些对我来说都很陌生，但后来我才明白，原来世界本来就是这样的。

It all of that was very new to me, but it just became clear that this is how the world works.

想让大公司里的中层管理者去试用一堆工具、自己注册、自己做决定、直接绑信用卡，真的很难说服他们。

And, like, it's very hard to convince, yeah, like, a middle manager at a big company to, like, try out a bunch of different tools, like self serve and then decide and, like, just put put the credit card.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他们需要有人亲自帮他们把一切 setup 好，没错。

I think it's they need to, like they need a human to, like, set everything up for them and Mhmm.

是的

Yeah.

来回沟通，确保他们用上了所有功能。

Like like, go back and forth, make sure that the they're using all the all the features.

没错，这就是我学到的，也是我们最近一直在做的事。

And, yeah, that's that's what I learned, and that's what we've been doing recently.

但早些年我做不到，因为那时候是自筹资金，雇销售成本太高了。

So but, also, like, I couldn't do that early on because I was I was bootstrapped, that that costs money because salespeople are expensive.

没错

Yep.

而且确实如此。

And yeah.

但现在我们不再靠自筹资金了，所以在企业业务上投入了很多。

But now now we're operating like we're not bootstrapped anymore, so we're investing a lot in, like, the enterprise side.

那具体是什么样子？

And what does it look like?

你们是主动外呼，还是只等客户主动联系？

Are you going outbound or are you just kind of picking from the inbound?

比如，Slack 上收到通知说有人注册了，然后销售专员就过去说，嗨。

You've got, like like, Slack notification saying this person signed up and then, like, an AE goes and says, hey.

如果需要帮忙，随时告诉我。

If you need any help, let me know.

是这样运作的吗？还是说更多是客户主动提出需求？

Is that is that kinda how the motion works, or is it, like, more hand raiser?

对吧？

Right?

是不是有人会主动来聊天，说，嗨。

Is it more like someone then goes to your chat and says, hey.

我们可以聊聊 GDPR 之类的吗？

Can can we talk about, you know, GDPR, whatever?

是的。

Yes.

其实是两种方式都有。

So exactly both.

我觉得我们有好几层不同的流程。

Like like, I think we have, like, different layers.

我们会优先跟进那些已经比较活跃的客户。

Like, we we try to, like, do the the very warm leads first.

有些公司一直在大量使用我们的产品，我们认为他们还能获得更大价值，我们也就能让他们升级付费。

So so distant companies were, like, using us a ton, and we think that they can get more value from us, and then we can, like, make them pay more.

这些客户应该是我们最优先处理的。

So those are, like, I think the the highest priority.

其次就是那种Slack通知，每当我们收到一个高价值的新用户注册，就会收到提醒。

And then the the second is exactly that, like, a Slack channel that we get, like, every, like, high value sign up that comes to us.

我们还会用AI对这些公司进行评估，打分判断他们和我们的匹配度，然后按顺序跟进。

And then we have, like, an AI research that company and then, like, give it a score on, like, how how how how much of a fit it is, and then, like, we just go through them.

我们也会尽量让大多数新用户和我们约个电话，让他们知道，只要公司规模够大，我们这里就有真人可以帮忙，帮他们完成上线和配置。

And then we also, like, try to get most of the sign ups to, like, get on calls with us just to, like, show them that, yeah, like like, any any company that is big enough, that there is humans here, and, like, we can help you help onboard you, help set everything up for you.

还有很多是主动外联，比如那些互动过我们领英动态的人，或者我们圈子内的人，之前见过面的，参加过活动的这类人。

And and then a lot of it is, like, outbound, like, warm outbound, which is, like, people who, like, interact with our LinkedIn posts, for example, or people, like, in our circles or people who are you know, like, we met before or, like, events and stuff like that.

最后一种就是纯冷启动外联，大规模群发那种。

And then, like, the the last thing is is just cold outbound, just like mass outreach.

但我觉得，线索越热，效果就越明显，远比纯冷联系管用得多。

But I think, yeah, the warmer the lead is, the I think that's been, like, working a lot more than just cold.

对。

Yeah.

我另外欣赏你的一点是，可能因为我来自Crave Industries，你特别重视品牌建设。

So something else that I like about you, and maybe it's because I'm from a Crave Industries background, is that you're very big on brands.

我之前在推特上看过你发的内容。

You said before publicly I read your Twitter.

我很认同你那些观点：好的品牌能让所有渠道都更顺畅。

I like your tweets that having a good brand just makes every channel easier.

只要你一联系，对方已经认识你，他们回应的意愿就高得多。

If they already if you reach out to them and they already recognize you, they're more likely to respond.

转化率更高。

The conversion rate is higher.

所以你的定位、文案、设计和叙事都很出色，不是所有科技从业者都这么想，但做得好的人往往都是这样。

And so that you have great positioning, copy, design, storytelling, and that not everyone in tech thinks like that, but I think people who do well tend to think like that.

但你这种想法是天生就有的吗？

But where did your was this just like something that was sort of natural and obvious to you?

还是受到了什么外部影响？

Or was there some kind of outside influence on this?

我觉得更多是过去几年里慢慢学来的。

I think it was more like like learning given, like, the last, yeah, the last few years.

我觉得这其实很明显。

I think it was it was obvious.

而且这么想也很合理。

I think, also, it makes sense that this would be the case.

对。

Yeah.

但很明显，只要人们哪怕只是 vaguely 了解你，所有渠道的表现都会好很多。

But it was also obvious that, like, the the all the channels just do a lot better if, like, people already know you and are familiar with you even vaguely.

所以，如果你投付费广告时，目标人群正好是你内容原本就吸引的那批人，效果会好上很多。

So, like, paid ads work a lot a lot better if you're just targeting the same people that already see your content organically.

对。

Mhmm.

SEO 也是同样的道理。

Same thing for for, like, SEO, for example.

如果他们之前在哪儿见过你的品牌，哪怕只是匆匆一瞥，你都能自然获得不少外链，等等。

If if they already, like, have seen, you know, like, your your your your brand somewhere, and even, like, you're gonna get, you know, like, free backlinks and yeah.

这样一来，各个渠道的工作都会轻松不少。

Like, it just makes life much easier in all the different channels.

销售也会容易很多。

And, like, sales is easier.

付费广告也一样，做起来更顺手。

Like like, paid ads is easier.

SEO也更容易了。

SEO is easier.

就连创始人亲自销售现在也轻松多了，因为大家现在都认识我了。

Even, like, founder led sales is also, like, now much, much easier because people, like, know me now.

这中间其实有一种信任感在起作用。

So it's just, like, there is, like, an element of of trust.

如果是完全陌生的人打来电话，就没有这种感觉。

Like, you don't have that if it's just, like, a complete random person you're getting on a call with.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得这一点非常重要。

So so I think that's very important.

我觉得我们在这一块还有很大的发展空间。

I think, like, I think there is a a lot of room for us to grow in that aspect.

我觉得现在这确实是重点。

I think it's, yeah, a big focus now.

那你们现在是怎么获取用户的呢？

So how are you acquiring users today then?

你之前说过，一开始主要是靠这种网红加机械式的推广方式，

So, like, you said you started very much with this kind of influencer, mechanic, super

是的。

Yeah.

自助式服务。

Self serve.

对。

Yeah.

自助式服务。

Self serve.

后来你们一直在打造品牌，把产品做得更精致，确实做得不错。

And then you kind of you've been working on brand and, like, making the product look great, which it does.

那现在你们是怎么获取用户的？

Like, how are you acquiring users now?

是靠付费广告吗？

Is it PPC?

是靠搜索引擎优化吗？

Is it SEO?

是靠应用商店优化吗？

Is it AEO?

你到底主要靠什么？

Like, what are you like?

对。

Yeah.

你现在最侧重哪种获客方式？

What are you really focused on for acquisition?

是主动外联吗？

Outbound?

到底是什么呢？

Like, what is it?

是的。

Yeah.

现在我们主要还是聚焦在自然流量和口碑传播上。

So now a big focus for us is still, like, organic, and word-of-mouth is is still very big.

你说的自然流量，具体指什么？

When you say organic, what do you mean?

比如社交媒体，特别是领英。

Like like social like LinkedIn, specifically.

明白了。

Okay.

领英上的自然流量。

LinkedIn organic.

你们是怎么让这个见效的？

And how and how do you how do you make that work?

我觉得我们主要在做很多员工自创内容。

I think so we're doing a lot of, like, EGC, like, employee generated content.

我们让每个人每周发两次帖，分享他们正在做什么、在想什么、遇到什么问题、哪些地方顺利、哪些地方不顺。

So we just, like, have everyone post twice a week every week about, like, what they're working on and just, like, yeah, like, what they're thinking about and, like, problems they're facing, what's working well, what's what's not.

我觉得这招挺管用，因为本质上还是那套方法。

And I think that's that's been working well because it's the same thing.

当客户经理联系潜在客户时，如果对方之前看过他们的内容，就不太可能直接忽略。

It's also, like, when when when the AE reaches out to someone, but that someone has seen their content before, it's just, like, less less likely for them to to to ignore.

所以，很大一部分还是靠社交媒体的自然传播，尤其是领英。

So, yeah, a a big part is is, like, the organic social media, specifically LinkedIn.

口碑传播也很重要，很多人还是把我们当成2023年起步、做聊天机器人那个AI代理工具开发商，这个印象在一些圈子里还很牢固。

A big part is still word-of-mouth because I think we we like, a lot of people know us as, like, the AI agent builder that, like, started in 2023 for, like, chatbots, and I think that, like, narrative is still out there in, like, some communities.

所以，我们现在的增长还是很大程度上靠这个。

So, yeah, we're still growing a lot from that.

第三个是SEO和AEO。

And then the the third one is SEO and AEO.

我们之前从大客户那里获得了很多新注册，主要就是靠SEO和AEO。

We were getting a lot of new sign ups from big accounts from SEO and AEO.

过去三个月，我们也一直非常专注于这一点。

And we've been also focused we're very focused on that for the last three months.

所以我们请了一个人专门负责SEO和AEO，效果确实明显不一样。

So we hired someone who's just focused on SEO and AEO now, and it's I think it makes a big difference.

因为现在，我选任何工具时，都会直接问Clod或者ChatGPT。

Because, yeah, now when I choose any tool, I just ask either Clod or ChatGPT.

我想稍微换个话题，Yasir，聊聊打造一个出色的封装或包装产品的部分。

I wanna switch gears slightly, Yasir, and talk about the product side of building a great harness or wrapper.

很多观看这个视频的人，正在做或者打算做这样的产品。

A lot of people watching this are building one or thinking about about building one.

你过去多次提到，认为封装产品前景很好，而且还有很多提升空间。

And you've mentioned a lot in the past about how you think harnesses have a bright future and how there's a lot of room for improvement.

我很想听听你的看法：一个普通的封装和一个真正高效的封装，差别到底在哪里？

And I'd love to get your perspective, like, what's the difference between someone that makes sort of a mediocre harness versus a really good one that's really effective?

因为你之前说过，同一个模型，用一个优秀的封装和一个普通的封装，输出结果可能天差地别。

Because you said before that sometimes the same model can have vastly different outputs from a great harness versus an average one.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

当然

Of course.

我觉得我们当然可以聊聊现在有哪些有效的方法，哪些不太管用。

I think, like like, of course, we can talk about the techniques to use and, like, what works now and what doesn't.

我很乐意分享这些。

And, yeah, like, I I I'm happy to do that.

但我觉得关键在于，很多人花大量时间去搭建提示框架，搞各种工具、上下文、限制条件，就为了让模型能跑起来。

But but I think, like, the the main lesson is a lot of people, like, spend a lot of time building, you know, the harness building, like, all the tools and context and, like, guardrails and everything around the model to to make it work.

结果有一天你突然发现，哦，原来新出的某种框架或方法才是更好的解决方案。

And then you wake up one day and you realize, like, oh, like, this new, like, framework or paradigm is, like, actually the the better way to do things.

没错

Mhmm.

但问题是，要把你辛辛苦苦建起来的东西全推翻，从头再来，实在太费劲了。

But it's just, like one is, like, it's a lot of effort to, like, scrap everything that you've built to, like, start from scratch.

而且，这部分其实也涉及沉没成本效应，你就是不想放弃已经投入的努力。

And, also, it's, like, all there's a part of it that's, like you don't wanna like, it's sunk cost fallacy.

你不想白白浪费那么多心血，再从零开始。

You don't wanna, like like, waste all of that work and restart from scratch.

所以我觉得，真正好的工具，那些AI配套做得扎实的，都是能根据当前最前沿的认知，灵活应对当下需求的，而不是死抱着三个月前的老一套不放——毕竟人家可是花了六个月才搭起来的。

So I think, like, the all the tools that I think are good and, like, have, like, what I would call, like, good harnesses around the AI are the tools that are just, like, doing whatever, like, needs to be done now given, like, everything that we know now and, like, not sticking to, like like, whatever they had three months ago because they they spent, like, six months working on.

但说实话，要做到这点太难了，因为每隔几个月，就会冒出新点子、新论文，或者突然发现：哦，现在文件系统更优了。

And, yeah, it's just very hard to do that because every every few months, you like, there is some new idea or, like, some new paper or some new, like oh, now file systems are better.

现在命令行工具更顺手了。

Now the CLI is better.

现在MCP其实挺靠谱了。

Now MCP actually is good.

不过MCP在上下文处理上还是不太行。

MCP is, like, bad for the context.

变化实在太大了。

It's just, like, changes so much.

而且你也得自己得出结论。

And, like, also, like, the other thing is that you have to, like, come to your own conclusions.

你不能光跟着热门走，因为网上太多内容都是那些根本不懂的人发的，就为了蹭流量。

You can't just, you know, like, follow whatever is is popular because a lot of it is just, like it it is crazy how much content you see from people who don't know anything about anything, but they're just posting for to just, like, get views.

真是让人无语。

It is crazy.

推特上到处都是这种东西。

Like, Twitter is is full of of that.

所以我觉得，第一，得亲自去试各种工具，形成自己的判断；第二，别太固守现有的东西，以免错过新东西或当下大家都在讨论的进展。

So I think, yeah, like, one, like, come to your own conclusions by, like like, trying trying out the different things, and two, don't have, like, too much pride in whatever you have now and, like, at the expense of not, like, trying whatever is is new or, like, people are talking about now.

对。

Yeah.

所以我听出来，你得不断学习。

So I'm hearing that you have to constantly be learning.

你得有主见。

You need to have conviction.

不能光等着看别人怎么做。

You can't wait around to just see what everyone else is doing.

那你们会做大量用户测试和内部试用，来帮助做出这些判断吗？

So do you do a lot of user testing and dogfooding to try and help you come to those conclusions?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们自己有个内部数据集。

Like, we we have, like, our own, like, dataset internally.

每次我们做调整，都会用一堆不同的模型跑一遍这些测试，看看效果是好是坏。

Like, we we run like, whenever we make a change, we run we run, like, all of those questions on, like, a a bunch of different agents to see how good or bad they are.

问题是，变化的因素实在太多了。

The problem is, like, there's just so many variables that change.

你做了点什么，结果在 GPT 5.4 上效果特别好，结果第二天早上一醒，发现已经出 GPT 5.5 了。

So, like, you do something and, like, it works amazing with, like, GPT 5.4, and then you wake up the next morning, and now there is GPT 5.5.

然后你就得重新测试所有东西。

And, like, now you have to, like retest everything.

重新测试那些指令。

Retest the instructions.

重新测试所有的配置。

Retest, like, all the config.

重新测试模型的思考深度。

Retest, like, how much the model is thinking.

比如说吧，我觉得 GPT 5.5 有时候思考得没那么深，反而效果更好，就是中等程度的思考，而不是拼命深思。

Like, I think for for example, like, I think GPT 5.5 sometimes does does a better job when it's not thinking too much when, like, thinking is medium instead of instead of instead of strong.

像这类情况，你得把每一个可能变化的变量都重新测试一遍。

So, like, stuff like that, you just have to test every single variable that can change.

而且说实话，做一款好产品，就得有这份准备，愿意不断重做这些工作。

And, yeah, like, it's it's I think it's just part of of building a good good product is, like, be willing to to do that.

你之前说过一句话，让我特别在意。

You said something that you said earlier, like, caught my attention.

你说，嘿。

You said, like, hey.

有人注册时，我们会用一个机器人自动给他们打分。

When someone signs up, we have a bot that basically does, like, lead scoring for us.

你能跟我聊聊你们公司是怎么做自动化流程的吗？

Can you tell me a little bit about how you'd, building automations in the company?

我猜你们公司应该是纯AI原生的吧？

Like because I imagine as a company that is, like, very, like, AI native.

对吧？

Right?

你们当初是怎么开始搭建这些系统的？现在都在跑哪些自动化？

Maybe how how have you started, like, built things and, like, what kind of automations are you running?

你们是怎么考虑这个问题的？

How how are you thinking about that?

你的自动化系统是这样的吗？

Is it, like, you have your automation?

对，没错。

Like yeah.

其实并不是这样。

So, actually, no.

我觉得自动化太重了，反而会让员工失去参与感。

I I I think when you're too heavy automation, you lose, like, you lose, like, investment from people.

比如我们有个机器人，每次有新用户注册，它都会去调研，然后给我们一段摘要，我觉得这本身不错。

Like, for example, we had this bot that, like, for every new sign up, it, like, researches them, and then it gives us a snippet, which I think is good.

但以前还没用这个机器人的时候，团队里有个人会亲自做调研，然后在群里发消息。

But I think, like, before before we had that bot, like, one person from the team would do the research, and then they would send a message in the chat.

我觉得手动来做，反而效果更好。

And I think, like, doing that manually is just, like, produces better results.

不是说我们写的那段摘要更好，而是因为亲手做这件事，会让人心里真正觉得这家公司值得跟进。

Not not not not the text snippet that we're writing, but because, like, oh, like, it's ingrained in their head that this is, like, a cool company that we need to follow-up on.

如果一周后他们还没回复，你心里就会一直惦记着：这到底是怎么回事？

And, like, if a week later, like, they didn't respond, it's in their head that we need to, like like, why?

那些人到底怎么了？

What happened with those guys?

我觉得，如果所有事情都自动化了，这种直觉就不会出现了。

And I think if if, like, everything is automated, like, things like that don't happen.

有些事情确实可以自动化，但不该全自动化。

So you you you like, some some things can be automated but shouldn't be.

不过，当然了，自动化还是有很大空间的。

But but, yeah, I I think, of course, there's, like, a lot of room for for automation.

就拿我们现在做的来说，比如市场推广这块，我们已经做了大量自动化。

What we're doing now like, for example, the we're we're doing a lot of automation for, like, the go to market stuff.

销售流程、跟踪数据、关键指标这些，基本都靠我们自己开发的内部工具自动处理了。

So, like like, all the sales sales motion and, like, what we're tracking, like and, like, the KPIs and stuff is mostly automated with, an internal tool that that we've built.

但比如 Chatbase 的所有新注册用户，我们会先过滤掉无效邮箱，再让 AI 对比我们现有的客户，看看这个用户是否属于某个行业——这样就知道，发消息时该强调我们在这个行业有其他客户。

But for example, like, all the sign ups that come to Chatbase, we filter out the bad emails, and then we have an AI look at our existing customers and try to see this is in this industry, then we know that, hey, when we send them a message, we wanna say, we wanna flex that we have this other customer in their same industry.

除此之外，我们还会根据他们是否符合理想客户画像来打分，判断是不是优质客户。

And other And than that, like, just score them based on, like, if we think they're a good customer or not, if they fit the ICP.

不过，有一件事我们以前是自动化的，现在反而不做了——就是去研究公司背景，写一段简短的介绍，说明他们做什么、该从什么角度切入。

But but I think, like, up something that we used to automate that I I I we're not automating anymore is just, like, doing the research about the company and, like, doing just a text snippet about, like, what they do and, like, what the angle should be.

我觉得，得有人心里真正装着这家公司，才能确保后续跟进到位。

I think, yeah, we you need a human to, like like, have this company in their head and, like, make sure that they're following up with them.

但确实，我们在市场推广这块做了不少自动化工作。

But, yeah, there is there is a bunch of automation stuff that we're doing for for go to market specifically.

我直接说吧。

I am I'm gonna put it out there.

我对Slack非常看好。

I'm bullish on Slack.

Slack根本不会被淘汰。

Like, Slack's not going anywhere at all.

Salesforce现在是Slack的母公司。

Salesforce is currently who obviously own Slack.

Salesforce 目前的市值是其年经常性收入的十倍。

Salesforce is currently trading at 10 times revenue, 10 times ARR of the whole business.

大家都离不开 Slack 了。

Everyone is so dug into Slack.

我根本换不了 Slack，因为我用了太多自动化工具，比如 HR 系统、营收报告机器人、线索评分系统。

Like, I I couldn't change Slack because I've got so many automations from my HR software, my bots for revenue reporting, lead scoring.

Slack 根本不会被淘汰。

You like Slack is Slack's not going anywhere.

对。

Yeah.

这种网络效应的业务，影响力太大了。

Network effect business like that effect

而且它的集成太方便了，轻轻松松就能连上其他系统。

and it's like integrations, like, make it so easy to integrate.

我觉得只要他们能让客户代表也更容易接入 Slack，而不仅仅是员工，那 Slack 就会一直存在下去。

I think as long as they make it easier to interact with your agents as well, not just employees and Slack, which I think they are, then I think they're be around for.

开发者。

Builder.

我是说，Slack 确实做得不错。

Like, how have Slack I think they do.

我觉得他们现在确实做到了。

I think they do now.

真的吗？

Do they?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不过我猜你也不愿意为此花钱，对吧？

I bet you don't want to pay for it though, don't you?

我猜是这样。

I suspect so.

Yasir，你发了一条特别有火药味的推文，我超喜欢。

Yasir, you have a very spicy tweet, which I I love this.

你转推别人的时候说，我的护城河就是别的公司没有我这样的创始人。

So you you're retweeting someone else and you said, my moat is that other companies don't have me as a founder.

我不确定你记不记得了，但我真的特别喜欢这句话。

I don't if you remember that, but I loved it.

我真的很喜欢。

I loved it.

但这让我开始想，因为你平时挺低调的。

But it just made me think a bit about because you're a humble guy.

对吧？

Right?

不过你这推文里时不时就放点猛料啊。

But, you know, that was a lot of spicy tweet here and there.

那在人工智能时代，你觉得护城河该怎么看呢？

But what how would you think about moats in, like, an AI era?

现在大家都说，产品没那么重要了，关键得靠公众人物，一切都变成品牌和品味的较量。

Because people are saying, like, you know, product doesn't matter as much, and, like, now you have to have, like, via a public figure, where it's all about brands or about all about taste.

那么在人工智能时代，你会怎么看待这个问题呢？

Like, how would you kind of think about this now in an AI era?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这确实是每个人都在思考的问题。

I think it's it's a the question that everyone is is trying to answer.

我觉得这跟讨论像SaaS这类上市公司有没有护城河、护城河是什么，其实是两回事。

So I think it's different from like like, I think when you when you're talking about, like, you know, like public SaaS companies, whether or not they have a moat and, like, what their moat is, I think maybe that's that's a separate question.

我刚才说的是初创公司，特别是人工智能初创公司的护城河。

What I was talking about is the moat for for startups and, like, specifically AI startups.

说实话，我觉得即使有了这么多AI技术的进步，护城河的本质也没太大变化。

I I think the moat I I I honestly, like, I don't think a lot has changed, to be honest, even with, like, all the advancements with AI.

这可能是那个比较有争议的观点。

Maybe that's the the hot take.

我觉得没错。

I think Mhmm.

我觉得AI只是让每个人都能做点什么，但作为创始人和团队，你依然得干很多事，这一点根本没变。

The moat like, I think AI just, like, crazed what everyone can do, but but there's still, like, so much so much you need to do in execution as the founder and as your team, and it's like, that that didn't change.

真正厉害的运营者、优秀的创始人，还有有好文化、好氛围、肯拼命的团队，他们之间的差距会非常大。

And, like, there is gonna be a big, big gap between, like, a good operator, like, a good founder, and, like, a a good team, like, a a team that with a good culture, that good environment, and, like, they're they're working hard.

这个差距会非常明显。

There's gonna be a big gap.

当人们说产品不会有护城河了，因为AI什么都能做，他们其实是假设你给两个AI同样的提示，它们就会产出完全一样的结果。

Like, I think when people say, like, there's not gonna be a moat in the product because AI is gonna build everything, it's assuming that you just give, like, the same prompt to two AIs and it's gonna produce the exact same thing.

这种事从来就没发生过。

That's that's not been the case for a lot for, like, ever.

我觉得短期内也不会发生。

And I I don't think it's gonna be the case soon.

我觉得还是会有这样的情况：你能用AI做出想做的东西的80%，但剩下的20%关键在于

I I think there's still gonna be like, you can get to, 80% of what you wanna build, but the 20% is gonna be about

就在于执行，这20%真的特别难。

It's execution so 20% is so hard.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

现在谁都能搭个前端和基础后端，但没人用。

Anyone can build a front end and a basic back end for any products now, but it doesn't have users.

问题出在执行不到位。

It lacks execution.

对吧？

Right?

缺的是对细节的把握。

It lacks understanding the nuance.

缺少工作流程和集成。

It lacks the workflows, the integrations.

你想展示一个应用，结果发现 vibe coding 真的太强大了。

And, like, you wanna show an app, you're like, oh god, vibe coding is so powerful.

然后你一深入，就熬到半夜，结果发现——

And then so you dig in and you're there till midnight and you're

是啊。

like Yeah.

天哪，这情况太糟了。

Oh, no.

真的挺糟糕的。

Like, it's it's bad.

确实挺糟糕的。

You know, it's bad.

没错，就是这样。

Is that yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，这种事情总是会发生。

So so I I I it always happens.

我总说，我接下来一小时就把这个做出来。

Like, I say, I'm gonna build this in the next hour.

结果我只用两个提示，就已经完成了80%。

And, like, I do, like, two prompts, and I'm already, like, 80% there.

但之后就怎么也搞不定了。

And then it's just impossible to make it work.

我觉得情绪没怎么变过，尤其是对初创公司来说，不管是AI之前还是大模型之后，关键还是执行、品牌、推广、团队，还有你已经做出来的产品和用户体验。

I don't think mood have changed a lot, like, especially for startups after AI and and or, like, after LLMs and before LLMs, I think it's just still about execution, about, you know, branding, about distribution, about, like, the team, like, all the all the the product that you've already built, the user experience.

因为当人们说现在不需要灵感了，因为做产品太简单了，我觉得如果世界真那样运转，那大家现在应该比以前干得更少才对。

Because when people say, like, now there is no mode because building a product is easy, I think if if the world worked that way, then that means people would be working less now than they used to.

如果说法是AI包办了一切，那确实，我们理应工作得更少。

Like, if the if the argument is that AI is doing all the work, then, yeah, like, we we should be working less.

但这里的每一位创业者，多伦多也好，其他地方也好，自从有了大模型之后，反而比以前更忙了。

But every founder of every company here in Toronto, everywhere, they're, like, working, like, a lot more after LMs than before.

这恰恰说明，真正重要的就是这些工作本身。

And that just means what they're doing is the mode.

所有这些付出，才是核心所在。

Like, all of that work is the mode.

我觉得，目标其实已经变了。

I feel like the goal yeah.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

因为目标的标准变了，人们的期望提高了，现在你能更快、更多地创造出东西。

Because the goalposts have moved because ex people's expectations have changed because you can just create so much more and so much faster.

没错。

And Yeah.

不过大多数情况下，我同意你的看法，确实还是需要有个好产品才能形成护城河。

And on most so, you know, I I agree with you that, like, there is still some moat in having a good product.

要做出一个真正优秀、安全、可扩展、细节处理得当的产品，依然没那么容易。

It's still not easy to make a really good, secure, scalable, Nuance product with all the edge cases.

但有一样东西，别人永远抄不走，那就是你的故事。

But what someone can never copy, though, is your story.

我觉得作为独立创始人，你在这方面做得很好，把你自己从一个年轻创业者、白手起家打造大企业的经历讲得很动人。

And I think as a solo founder, that's something you do a good job of leaning into, like, your journey from being a young founder solo founder that bootstraps this large business.

你得把能用的优势都用上，没错。

You gotta use every advantage that you have and yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这确实是你的强项之一，我觉得。

That's definitely one of yours, I think.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得这一点会继续很重要。

I I I think that's gonna continue to be important.

对。

Yeah.

比如你的故事、品牌，还有人们看到你的标志时对你的印象和感受。

Like, the story, the brand, the like, how people think of you and like perceive you when they look at, you know, your logo.

我觉得这非常关键。

I think that's very important.

没错。

Mhmm.

当人们看到你的图表式标志时，你希望他们想到什么？

What do you what do you want people to think of you when you when they see the chart based logo?

你希望他们具体产生什么样的想法？

Like, what what do you want them to think?

对。

Yeah.

我最近一直在想这个问题。

I I I've been thinking about that.

我觉得有几家公司在这一点上做得不错，我很欣赏。

I think there's a few companies that I look up to, and I think they're doing a good job.

共同点是让人感觉很友好、简洁，好像马上就能上手用。

I think the common thing is it feels inviting and simple and, like, I can just start using it.

给我举几个例子。

Give me some names.

给我举几个例子。

Give me some names.

比如 Stripe，你觉得怎么样？

What what what And Stripe,

比如说，可能像这样

for example, is that maybe, like

你有什么感受？

What do you feel?

你想到Stripe时，有什么感觉？

What do feel when you think of Stripe?

我觉得它不是空谈的概念。

So I think it's not vaporware.

它不是那种毫无理由只图钱的产品。

It's not like it's not a product that's just, like, getting money for no reason.

它确实在为客户提供实实在在的价值。

Like, it is actually, like, producing a ton of value to to their customers.

而且用起来很友好，容易上手，也能快速看到效果。

And I think it's it's invite like, I think it's easy to to work with and, like, to set up and to, like, get get value out of it quickly.

不管是刚起步的小团队，还是大型企业，都能轻松使用它。

But, also, like, it's easy for, like, someone that's, like, just starting out, but, also, it's powerful enough for, like, huge enterprises to be using it.

我想打造的东西就该是这样的，因为对我来说，当时只有两条路可选。

So I think that's, like, that's what I wanna build because, like, for me, there was, two routes.

对吧？

Right?

一种是PLG模式，就是坚持这条路，甚至做个生活方式型的生意，一直走下去。

There was, like, the PLG, like, you know, like, sticking to that, maybe even, like, doing, like, a more of, like, a lifestyle business and just sticking to that.

另一端则是完全靠企业销售，专门服务某一类公司。

And then the opposite end is, you know, like, extremely, like, enterprise sales led, just working with, like, specific type of company.

但我真正想打造的产品，应该是那种直观易用、上手简单，小公司用起来很友好，大公司用起来又足够强大的产品。

But I think what I like about, like, what what I want to build is a product that, like, is intuitive, easy to get started with, and, like, inviting to use to, like, smaller companies and powerful enough for bigger companies.

我本来想说，你选Stripe这个例子，其实反映的更多是你想打造什么样的产品，而不是Stripe本身。

I I was gonna say, I think your your choice of picking Stripe actually says more about what you wanna build, I think, than it says about Stripe.

我从你的话里听到的是，你想要打造一款既适合大企业、又简单易用、还特别稳定的产品。

I think what I heard from that is, I wanna build, a product that is great for the enterprise that is easy and accessible and that is incredibly robust.

说白了，就是这样。

It's basically yeah.

查理，你想到Stripe时，第一反应是什么？

Charlie, what do you think of when you when you think of Stripe?

我觉得Stripe特别靠谱。

So I think Stripe are just super reliable.

他们非常以用户为中心。

They're very user focused.

到今天，它已经像基础设施一样了。

It's like infrastructure at this point.

现在它简直像个机构了，而且确实为用户服务。

It's like an institution now, and, it works for people.

他们投入了大量时间。

They spend a lot of time.

他们其实没必要专门去关注小企业。

They don't need to do this focusing on, like, the the little guy.

你懂的。

You know?

他们似乎真的关心那些刚起步的创业者。

They seem to actually care about, somebody who's just starting their business.

所以他们才会推出一些项目，比如让注册公司变得特别简单，这些事他们其实完全可以不做。

That's why they start things like, let me get really easy to start a deadweight company and all of these things that maybe they don't have to do.

所以我觉得他们真的非常了解用户的需求。

So I think they really got their ear to the ground.

每次我遇到 Stripe 的人，他们第一件事就是让我坐下，问我：你平时是怎么用 Stripe 的？

And whenever I've met anyone from Stripe, the first thing to do is sit me down and ask me, so show me how you're using Stripe.

你遇到什么问题了？

What are your problems?

他们所有人都特别以客户为中心。

They all seem to They are customer obsessed.

他们骨子里就带着这种客户至上的理念，真的就是这样。

They have it baked into them to be really customer obsessed and, like, yeah.

我特别欣赏他们这一点。

I love that about them.

我其实被一位高管邀请过，不是那种高层领导。

I was actually invited by one of the leadership not the leadership.

是一位相当资深的人，从加州专程来伦敦，邀请了我和其他三个人去他们办公室的食堂吃午饭。

Someone very actually, I think it is, like, a very anyway, a very senior person at Stripe was in London from California, and they invited me and, like, three other people for, like, lunch at their office in their canteen.

那场面挺轻松的，就随便问问 Stripe 怎么样。

And it was pretty chill, and it was just like, how's Stripe?

最近还顺利吗？

How's it going?

就是闲聊几句，啥正事都没有。

What, you know, and it was just chitchat.

挺舒服的。

It was nice.

特别随意，我当时就想，这才叫真正以客户为中心。

It was really casual and I was like, you know, that's customer obsession.

对吧？

Right?

就是把人请进来，了解他们真正需要什么。

That is like getting people in the room, learning about what they want.

还有，每次想到 Stripe，你有没有过这种经历——让人随便想一个颜色，再想一个工具。

And also, when I think about Stripe, you know you know when you ask someone like, hey, think of a color and think of a tool.

大家都说红色锤子。

Everyone says red hammer.

你知道的。

You know?

每当我想到Stripe，我第一个蹦出来的词就是安全。

Like, when I think of Stripe, first thing I thought was secure.

就是特别安全。

Like, it's just secure.

用起来特别稳。

Just works.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得这个小练习挺有意思的。

So I think it's an interesting exercise.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得吧，每个人看问题的角度都不一样，但我想说的是……

I think, yeah, like, everyone, yeah, like, sees it from a different angle and, like but I think what what yeah.

我觉得关键在于，不管公司大小，他们始终专注于客户。

I think the the point about it being, like, they they still focus on their customers regardless of of their size.

我的意思是，它用起来简单友好，适合刚起步的人，同时又足够稳定和安全，能满足大企业的需要。

I think that's that's what I'm saying is, like, it it is easy, friendly to use, like like, people who who are just getting started and at the same time, like, robust enough and secure enough for for enterprises and

我其实想问你们俩一个问题，我记得在疫情前跟萨巴聊过。

So something that I'm interested in asking both of you actually is because I remember talking to Saba just before COVID.

那时候他们刚做到几百万的年经常性收入，正在考虑要不要融资。

They just hit a few million ARR, and they were talking about maybe raising money.

当时他们说，这事儿就像一扇单向门。

And they they you know, it was like it's kind of a one way door.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们在权衡利弊。

And so they were talking about the pros and cons.

你目前还没融资，Yasir，但我猜如果你愿意，其实很容易就能拿到钱。

And you're in this you know, you haven't raised money, Yasir, but I suspect you could very easily if you wanted to.

那你现在是怎么想的？要不要融资？为什么这么考虑？

What is your current thought process about that, about whether to do it, whether not, and for what reasons?

说得对。

Good Yeah.

我觉得Charlie。

I think Charlie.

问得好。

Good question.

是的。

Yeah.

确实是个好问题。

Very good question.

没错。

Yeah.

很多靠自力更生创业的人，对这件事特别执着，简直像一种道德信仰，坚决反对融资。

I I mean, like, a lot of, like, people who bootstrapped are very religious about bootstrapping and, like, they're extremely against like, it's it's like a more of a moral decision for them.

对。

Mhmm.

觉得风险投资机构都是坏人之类的。

Like, VCs are evil or something.

我不这么想。

I don't yeah.

对我来说情况不一样。

It's not the same for me.

我的考虑更简单：我就看自己、团队和公司真正想要的是什么，然后觉得，如果靠自力更生，我达成目标的可能性更大。

I think that my my thought process was more Like like, I just looked at what my goal is for me, for the team, for the company, and I just thought I have a higher likelihood of achieving that goal if I bootstrap.

因为我觉得，一旦拿了投资，哪怕还没签合同，甚至不用明说，潜规则就已经存在了。

Because I I think the reason is, like, when you when you do raise, I think the the not even, like, the the agreement, not even implicit.

那就是你得接下来十年拼命干，非得把公司做成能回报投资人一百倍的规模不可。

The agreement is that you're gonna, like, work hard on this for the next ten years to, like, make it, like, a 100 x their investment.

这相当于你已经签了字承诺了。

Like, that's you're handshaking on that.

顺便说一句，这说法并不准确。

Technically not true, by the way.

我觉得

I would

我想澄清一下这个观点。

I would just debunk what okay.

什么观点？

What is it?

我想反驳这一点。

I would just debunk that.

因为我和你，亚西尔，看法一致。

Like because I agreed with you, Yasir.

不是这样的。

No.

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

为明确起见，如果投资人投资了你，那通常就意味着进入了增长轮阶段。

So, like, just to be really clear, when it invest if an investor invested in you, for example, this is probably it's the start of being classed as a growth round.

也就是说，增长阶段的投资和早期阶段的投资是不一样的。

So, like, growth stage investment versus early stage.

早期阶段的投资，比如YC的种子轮、A轮，就是这样。

Early stage investment is like y c seed round series a.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

So, like Yeah.

最高可达十亿零一十五万美元。

Up to $1,015,000,000 dollars.

如果你投的是十亿美金的单子，那你的估值大概在六十亿左右，这意味着他们追求的是十倍回报，而不是百倍，我只是提醒一下。

And if you're doing $1,015,000,000 dollars checks, then you're likely doing, you know, 80 $6,080,000,000 dollar valuations, which which actually means the 10, you know, to 10 x is is what they're looking for, not a 100 x, just saying.

这个模式的基础是：十家公司里，三家会倒闭，三家能回本，两家能带来五到六倍回报，剩下一家则希望能带来超额回报。

And and the model is based on the fact that, like, look, out of ten, three will go bust, three will give you your money back, two will give us a five, six x, and one will hopefully should give us a should give us that outsized return.

到了成长阶段，就像我之前说的，你现在大概就处在这个阶段。

Now at the growth stage, as I said, this is probably where you sit now at the growth stage.

成长轮的投资人通常期待三到五倍的回报，但他们要求更稳妥一些。

They're really looking for three to five x, on a growth round, but they wanted to be quite sure.

对吧？

Right?

所以，他们的风险偏好会降低一些。

So, like, the risk appetite goes down a bit.

他们关注的是净收入留存率。

You're looking for NRR.

他们想找的是企业级客户。

You're looking for, you know, enterprise customers.

你找的是一个相当稳健的生意。

You're looking for quite a robust business.

我说的三到五倍回报，那是基本底线，因为如果他们投了钱，十年后能拿到三到五倍，已经很不错了。

And when I say free to five x, that's like the baseline because they if they give you money, free to five x ten years later is pretty nice for them.

但他们也希望这个项目有潜力带来更大的回报。

But they're also looking for the opportunity for it to be potentially more.

是的。

So yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

所以，我意思是，没错。

So I I yeah.