维塔利克：以太坊，第一部分

好的。

Alright.

欢迎各位回到播客节目。

Welcome everybody back to the podcast.

今天我们邀请到了Dragonfly的合伙人Hasib Qureshi。

We have with us Hasib Qureshi, who's our partner at Dragonfly.

Hasib和我曾在加密领域活跃时共事过。

Hasib and I used to work together back when I was more active in Cryptoland.

当然，Vitalik是个博学多才的天才——虽然他可能对这个描述感到不快——他创建的以太坊是首个获得规模效应并彻底改变区块链计算格局的智能合约区块链。

And Vitalik is, of course, a polymath ingenious, although he may bristle at that description, who created Ethereum, which is the first smart contract blockchain to gain any volume and change the face of blockchain computing as we know it.

Hasid，能简单用一段话介绍一下你的背景吗？

Hasid, do you wanna give us a quick one paragraph background on yourself?

我原本是一名软件工程师。

So I'm a software engineer by background.

现在转型做投资人。

I'm now an investor.

我负责Dragonfly Capital，这是一家全球性的加密货币基金。

I run Dragonfly Capital, which is a global crypto fund.

我们只投资加密领域，至今已做了四年多。

We only invested in crypto, I've been doing this for a little bit over four years now.

有趣的是，我刚进入加密领域时，记得是在IC3学术加密会议上。

It's funny because when I first got into crypto, I remember I was actually at IC three, this academic crypto conference.

那时我刚从Airbnb软件工程师岗位离职，第一次见到Vitalik，我问过他：你认为加密领域最需要解决的问题是什么？

I just left my job at Airbnb as a software engineer, and I met Vitalik for the first time, and I asked you, what do you think is the most important problem to solve in crypto?

当时，你的回答是关于钱包的。

At the time, your answer was something about wallets.

然后你说，我认为开发更多钱包很重要。

Then you were like, I think it's important to build more wallets.

那时我对开发钱包的含义还只有模糊的理解。

And at that time, I had a vague understanding of what that meant to build wallets.

但正是这件事让我深入探索以太坊的世界。我记得在早期刚深入研究加密货币时，参加完IC3会议后，我产生了一个强烈的预感——比特币将会消亡。

But that was what triggered my dive down the rabbit hole of Ethereum, and I remember in the very early days, when I was first really diving deep into crypto, I remember coming away with a very strong feeling after that IC three conference that Bitcoin was gonna die.

我认为比特币会消亡的原因是：看看以太坊世界展现出的巨大智力能量与特质差异——这是我在IC3会议上看到的一切，而比特币世界则充斥着宗教式的愤怒与狂热，却鲜有创新。

And the reason why I thought Bitcoin was gonna die is I was like, look at the obvious massive delta in the intellectual energy and character of what's going on in the Ethereum world, which is everything that I saw at IC three, versus what I saw in the Bitcoin world, which was a whole lot of religious anger and fervor and not a whole lot of innovation.

后来证明我当时理解得很肤浅，但正是通过你我之间那次小小的互动，让我首次全职投入了加密货币领域。

And I turned out to have a very simplistic understanding at that time, but that was how I first got into crypto full time, through that small interaction that you and I had back then.

如果我没记错的话，你还有扑克玩家的背景。

And you also have a background as a poker player, if I remember correctly.

确实如此。

That is also correct.

在进入科技行业之前，我曾有五年职业扑克玩家的经历。

In a former life, before I got into the technology world, I used to be a professional poker player for about five years.

奇怪的是，我们中有大量人在进入加密领域前，要么玩万智牌，要么玩扑克。

There's a strangely large number of us who were either in Magic the Gathering or in poker before we got into crypto.

或者魔兽世界。

Or World of Warcraft.

可能只是极客和游戏玩家的共性吧。

Maybe it's just geeks and gamers.

一切都比那更重要。

Everything is bigger than that.

我有个理论，我们之前讨论过的。

I have this theory that you and I have talked about before.

每一代人都有这样一种门道：如果你足够聪明，积极寻找优势，不害怕显得怪异，就有办法提前取得成功，或者以大多数人不易察觉、甚至可能略带颠覆性的方式赚大钱。

Every generation, there is some hustle that if you're really smart, very aggressive in looking for edges, and not afraid of looking weird, there are ways to get ahead early or to make a lot of money in a way that's not obvious to most people, and is maybe even slightly subversive.

这种事情要是你花太多时间在上面，你父母会皱眉头。

It's the kind of thing your parents would raise their eyebrows if you were spending a lot of time on.

在我那个年代，这就是扑克。

In my day, that was poker.

后来变成了梦幻体育，接着是加密货币，然后是DeFi和流动性挖矿，再后来是NFT交易。

There's a time when it became fantasy sports, it became crypto, then it became DeFi and liquidity mining, then it became NFT trading.

两年后，当NFT高度专业化、交易NFT赚取超额收益的机会变少时，又会出现新事物。

Two years from now, there will be something else when NFTs are very professionalized and there's not that much alpha to be made trading NFTs.

总会有其他途径，让那些年轻、极度渴望成功且不怕出丑的人能赚大钱。

There'll be something else that young, really hungry people who are not afraid of looking dumb are gonna be doing to make a lot of money.

Vitalik，能简单介绍一下你的背景吗？

Vitalik, you wanna give us a quick background?

出生于俄罗斯，六岁时移居加拿大。

Born in Russia, moved to Canada when he was six.

那时我已经学了很多数学和编程，读完了半个高中课程。

At the time, I had already been doing a lot of math, a lot of programming, and I had been halfway through high school.

然后我发现了比特币这个有趣的东西。

And I came upon this interesting Bitcoin thing.

它立刻吸引了我，因为它完美结合了我当时所有的兴趣点。

It fascinated me immediately because of how it combines together all of my interests at the time.

比特币具备数学特性、密码学基础、计算机科学原理，其代码完全开源。

Bitcoin has the mathematical aspects, it has the cryptography, it has the computer science, the code, it's all open source software.

那时我对开源软件非常热衷。

I had been very into open source software at the time.

此外它还涉及经济和政治层面的因素。

And then also there's these economic and political aspects.

我当时已经对奥地利经济学派有所关注，而比特币恰好满足所有这些条件。

I had been following Austrian economics a little already, and then Bitcoin just hit all of those buttons.

我开始竭尽全力想要加入比特币社区。

I started trying my best to join the Bitcoin community.

我仔细浏览比特币论坛，寻找能用比特币支付的工作，因为我认为比特币的意义就在于你应该赚取它。

I started scouring through the Bitcoin forums, looking for jobs that would pay me in Bitcoin because I figured the point of Bitcoin is that you're supposed to earn it.

我找到一位愿意支付5个比特币的雇主，当时每篇文章的稿费相当于4美元。

I found someone willing to pay me 5 Bitcoins, which back then was $4 per article to write articles for his blog.

这样持续了几个月后，一位来自罗马尼亚名叫米海·阿利西亚的扑克玩家联系我，说他正在创办比特币杂志，希望我成为首位撰稿人。

I did this for a few months, then eventually a poker player via Romania named Mihay Alisia reached out to me and said that he was starting a Bitcoin magazine and wanted me to be the first writer.

我立即答应，成为了比特币杂志的首位作者。

I immediately agreed and I became the first writer for Bitcoin magazine.

我坚持写作约两周后，开始涉足更多比特币相关写作，深入学习比特币知识，后来参与更多编程项目，为名为Bitcoin X的加密币库做过开发，逐渐深入这个领域。

I kept doing that for about two weeks, started doing more and more Bitcoin related writing, learning about Bitcoin, eventually more programming related projects, did some work for a covered coins library called Bitcoin X and started getting deeper and deeper into the space.

于是在2013年年中，我决定开启比特币之旅，休学半年环游世界，尽可能拜访各个比特币社区，了解他们的动态。

Then in mid twenty thirteen, I decided that I would go on this Bitcoin trip, take half a year off of university and go around the world, visit all of the Bitcoin communities I could, understand the communities, see what everyone is up to.

经过几个月的探索后，我遇到了这样一群人，他们试图利用区块链技术，将其扩展到加密货币以外的领域。

Eventually, after a few months of this, I came upon these people that were trying to take the blockchain and extend it to do things other than cryptocurrency.

当时有一个存在已久的项目叫Covered Coins，它试图将区块链作为数据库层，在其上发行其他类型的资产。

So there was this project called Covered Coins that had existed for a long time, which was trying to use the blockchain as this database layer to issue other kinds of assets on top.

你可以在区块链上发行股票，也可以在区块链上发行数字美元。

You could issue shares on the blockchain, you could issue digital dollars on the blockchain.

还有一个叫Mastercoin的项目试图更进一步，创建一个完整的金融系统，实现我们今天所说的DeFi，不过那是非常早期的版本。

And there was a project called Mastercoin that was trying to extend that even further to create a full financial system, do what we call DeFi today, but this very early version of that.

在这些圈子里沉浸足够长时间后，我最终产生了自己的想法：如何创建一个更通用的版本，不是为单一应用设计的区块链，而是可以在其上构建任何应用的区块链。

And after I spent enough time in these circles, I eventually had my own idea for how to create a more general purpose version of all of these ideas instead of a blockchain for one application, a blockchain that you can build any application on top of.

这就是以太坊的由来。

And that's where Ethereum came from.

所以以太坊是一个可以构建任何应用的区块链，而比特币显然只局限于试图成为新货币或新储备货币，现在有些人称之为数字黄金。

So Ethereum is a blockchain on which you can build any application, and Bitcoin is obviously limited to trying to be new money or a new reserve currency or nowadays some people say digital gold.

那么你是最初的创始人之一，和团队一起编写代码并发布了它。

So you were the original creator along with a team who coded it up and you released it.

你当时多大年纪？

How old were you when you did that?

19岁。

19.

那时你接触计算机多久了？

And how long had you been in computers at that point?

你最初是什么时候开始编程的？

When did you first start programming?

我记得大概10岁左右就开始编程了。

I think I started programming when I was around 10 or so.

你主要是自学还是在学校学的这个？

And were you mostly self taught or did you go to school for this?

除了明显的遗传因素，还有什么秘诀吗？

What's the secret here besides the obvious genetics?

我就是从小给自己编电子游戏玩。

I just grew up programming video games for myself to play.

我会做一个游戏，玩到腻了就再做另一个，然后再玩到腻。

So I would make a video game, play it until I got tired, then make another video game and then play it until I got tired.

基本上我就是这样一路学到高中的。

And that's pretty much how I learned all the way up until high school.

你父母有没有做什么特别的事，或者环境有没有什么特别之处来培养你的编程能力？

Did your parents do anything or did the environment do anything uniquely to foster your development and programming?

我父母确实给我买了很多编程书。

My parents did buy me a lot of programming books.

他们还帮我找了些编程课和数学课。

They did find some programming classes for me and some math classes as well.

所以他们确实非常支持我。

So they were definitely very supportive.

你是在天才班还是普通公立学校或私立学校？

And were you in a gifted program or just the normal public school system or private school?

我八年级之前都在公立学校的天才班。

I was in the gifted program or the public school up until grade eight.

到了高中时期，父母把我转到了一所私立学校，我觉得私立学校的体验要好得多。

And then for high school, my parents moved you over to a private school, and I found the private school to be a much better experience.

你的大部分合作同事是在网上认识的，还是你们有一个实体场所，大家都在那里聚会，而你偶然遇到了他们？

Were most of your collaboration colleagues met online, or was there a physical place that you were at where they were all hanging out and you stumbled into them?

几乎完全是在线上。

Pretty much entirely online.

比特币的世界存在于一个论坛上。

The Bitcoin world lived on a forum.

除非你住在纽约或旧金山这样的大城市，那里几乎从一开始就有一个社区。

Unless you were in one of the major cities like New York or San Francisco or that had a community that started almost from the beginning.

所以《比特币杂志》从第一天起就是一家完全远程运营的公司。

So Bitcoin Magazine was a fully remote company from day one.

《比特币周刊》，也就是《比特币杂志》之前的博客，同样从第一天起就是完全远程的。

Bitcoin Weekly, the blog before Bitcoin Magazine, also fully remote from day one.

直到今天，你的大部分合作者仍然分散在世界各地。

And to this day, most of your collaborators, you're pretty much spread out all over the world.

是这样吧？

Isn't that correct?

差不多。

Pretty much.

是的。

Yeah.

以太坊于2014年问世。

So Ethereum came out to the world in 2014.

如果我没记错的话，在那之前你已经开发了它好几年。

I think if I remember correctly, you'd been developing it for a few years before that.

当时还进行了公开销售。

There was a public sale.

很多人参与其中。

A lot of people got involved.

然后到了2017年，出现了在以太坊上构建资产的热潮，各种代币涌现，当然还有游戏、NFT、DeFi等应用相继出现。

And then 2017, there was a boom around people building assets on top of Ethereum, different kinds of coins, and then, of course, gaming and NFTs and DeFi and all of those things came along.

让我们回顾一下以太坊的发展历程。

Let's just go through the evolution of Ethereum.

以太坊在核心层面是做什么的？

What does Ethereum do at a core level?

它擅长什么？

What does it do well?

而如今，它的短板在哪里？

And today, what does it do poorly?

它需要在哪些方面改进？

What does it need to get better at?

我认为以太坊是一个通用型区块链。

I think of Ethereum as a general purpose blockchain.

它不是专为单一应用设计的区块链，而是可以在其上构建任何应用的区块链平台。

So instead of being a blockchain for one application, it's a blockchain that you can build any application on top of.

在以太坊上实现这一点的方式是：你编写一段代码，创建一个包含该代码的数字交易并发布它。

And the way that you do this on Ethereum is you write a piece of code and you create a digital transaction that contains that piece of code and publish it.

当你发布这笔交易且该交易被纳入区块链的一个区块时，就会创建一个称为合约的对象。

And when you publish this transaction and that transaction gets included into a block on the blockchain, this creates an object called a contract.

这是一个区块链会持续追踪的虚拟对象。

And this is a virtual object that the blockchain keeps track of.

合约是一个包含代码片段的对象。

A contract is an object that contains a piece of code.

现在区块链拥有了这个包含代码片段的对象，从此刻起以太坊区块链将维护这个小型应用程序。

Now the blockchain has this object that has a piece of code, and that is a little application that the Ethereum blockchain maintains from that point forward.

此后任何人都可以发送另一笔交易表示：我想与这个对象交互。

So then anyone after that point can send another transaction that says, I want to talk to this object.

第一步，我创建了一笔生成该对象的交易，我们称这个对象为X。

So step one, I created a transaction that creates this object, we'll call that object X.

第二步，你想使用我的应用程序。

Then step two, you want to use my application.

于是你发送一笔交易，在交易中声明：我想与智能合约X对话，并附带一小段数据说明要对这个应用程序执行什么操作。

So you send a transaction and in your transaction you say, I want to talk to smart contract X, and here's a little piece of data that says, here's what I want to do with that application.

当该交易被打包进区块时，我最初发布的代码片段就会运行，以你交易中的数据作为输入并按既定逻辑进行解析。

When that transaction gets included in a block, the piece of code that I first published runs, taking as input the data from your transaction and interprets it in whatever way it was.

我们可以通过具体示例来更清楚地说明，对吧？

So we can make this more concrete with an example, right?

假设我有一家公司，想在区块链上发行股份。

So let's say I have a company and I want to issue shares on the blockchain.

我将创建一笔包含程序的交易。

I am going to create a transaction that contains a program.

该程序的规则将会说明：你可以用股份做什么？

And the rules of that program are going to say, well, what can you do with shares?

简单来说，你可以将股份转让给他人，也可以行使投票权，对吧？

We'll just say you can transfer your shares to someone else and you can vote, right?

因此，程序会将其接收到的任何数据解析为两种指令：要么是将股份转让给他人，要么是进行投票表决。

So the program is going to interpret any data that it sees, either as an instruction to transfer your shares to someone else or as an instruction to make a vote.

我发布这笔交易来初始化整个系统，并在交易中声明：Naval持有50股，Hasib持有100股，我持有25股。

I publish this transaction like initializes the whole thing, and as part of that transaction I might say Naval has 50 shares, Hasib has 100 shares, and I have 25 shares.

现在区块链上就有了这个程序，它包含一段代码和独立的内存空间，记录着我持有25股，Hasib持有100股，Naval持有50股。

So now there is this thing on the blockchain and it has a piece of code and it has its own little memory that says, I have 25, Hasib has 100, and Naval has 50.

后来Naval慷慨地决定将其半数股份转给我。

So then Naval is feeling generous and wants to give half its shares to me.

于是Naval创建一笔交易，交易数据将编码这个意图：我Naval希望将25股转给Vitalik。

So Naval is going to create a transaction and that transaction is going to have some data, it's going to encode this idea that I, Naval, wants to send 25 of my shares to Vitalik.

你创建包含该指令的交易并发送到网络，交易被打包进区块后，程序代码将执行并识别出：需要将Naval的25股转给Vitalik——原本Naval有50股，扣除25股后还剩25股。

So you create a transaction that encodes this, send it to the network, it gets included into a block, and then once it gets included, the piece of code runs and the piece of code sees the transaction and it sees, okay, clearly I have to transfer 25 shares from Naval to Vitalik, before Naval had 50, I'm going to subtract 25, Now Naval has 25.

此前Vitalik持有25股。

Before, Vitalik had 25.

现在Vitalik持有50股。

Now Vitalik has 50.

因此我将记录Vitalik现在持有50股。

So I'm gonna write down that Vitalik has 50 now.

就这样完成了。

And that's it.

交易已处理完成。

The transaction got processed.

为什么要在云端用如此曲折的方式，采用这么复杂的区块链技术来做这件事？

Why do all this in the cloud in this very convoluted way, this very complicated blockchain?

为什么不直接用普通电脑呢？

Why not just use a normal computer?

为什么不直接发封邮件？

Why not just send an email?

这能创建一套非常透明的公共规则记录，并确保与我开发的应用所有交互都遵循这些规则。

This creates this very transparent public record of what the rules are and this guarantee that all of the interactions with this application that I created followed the rules.

没有任何主体拥有后门密钥。

There is no actor that has a backdoor key.

这是云端的一台可信计算机，我们每个人都能验证所有活动。

It's a trusted computer in the cloud that each of us can verify all of the activity.

我们可以审计所有记录。

We can audit all of it.

而且我们知道没人作弊。

And we know that nobody cheated.

没有其他人能动用我的资金。

Nobody else moved my funds.

资金转移操作是我本人执行的。

I was the one who moved the funds.

所有人都能验证运行的代码完全符合预期。

And everyone can authenticate the code was exactly the code that was supposed to be run.

显然这是需要付出代价的，对吧？

And there are obviously sacrifices for this, right?

这并非没有成本。

This is not free.

确实如此。

Exactly.

即使是我，作为这个示例中合约的创建者，也没有能力事后进去修改条款，比如给自己增加400股。

Even I, as the creator of the contract in this example, I do not have the ability to later go in and say, oh, I changed my line, I'm gonna give myself 400 shares.

一旦创建并发布，我就和其他人一样没有任何特权。

Once I created and once I publish it, I have no more privileges than anyone else.

这个应用甚至没有所有者。

The application doesn't even have an owner.

所以这很强大，完全中立、完全透明、可见，根据既定规则平等对待每个人。

So that's powerful, Completely neutral, completely transparent, visible, treats everyone equally according to what the rules are.

那么，你为此牺牲了什么？

Now, what do you sacrifice for this?

你牺牲的一个重要方面是效率。

One big thing that you sacrifice is efficiency.

包括比特币和以太坊在内的所有区块链运作方式是：由数万台计算机组成的网络共同验证每笔交易。

The way that all of these blockchains, including Bitcoin and Ethereum work is that you have this network of tens of thousands of computers, each of which help to verify the transaction.

当我广播这笔交易时，信息会传送到网络上的每台计算机。

So when I broadcast this transaction, that transaction goes out to every single computer on the network.

网络上的每台计算机都会运行那段代码。

And every single computer on the network runs that piece of code.

网络中的每台计算机都会验证它，网络中的每台计算机都会处理它。

Every single computer on the network verifies it, every single computer on the network processes it.

并行计算是指我将代码拆分到一千台计算机上，每台运行其中的千分之一。

Parallel computing was I take my code and I split it across a thousand computers and each one runs 1,000.

现在我把它发送给一千台计算机，所有计算机都运行我的代码。

Now I send it to a thousand computers and all thousand computers run my code.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种非常不同的计算方式。

It's a very different kind of computing.

直观理解其合理性的方式，可以对比文本与音视频的区别。

The way to intuitively think about why it makes sense is compare text to audio and video.

就像现在我们在录制播客，播客包含音频，也包含视频。

So right now we're recording a podcast and the podcast has some audio, podcast has some video.

为了通过视频看到彼此，每秒都有数十万字节的数据在我们之间流动。

And to see each other on video, there's hundreds of thousands of bytes that are flowing around between us every second.

但从技术上讲，这些数十万字节的数据并非必需。

But technically, those hundreds of thousands of bytes, they're not necessary.

如果愿意，我们完全可以通过文字对话完成整个交流，但能听到彼此的声音和看到表情确实带来一些好处。

If you wanted to, we could just do the whole thing over a text conversation, but there are some benefits from us being able to hear each other's voices and see each other's expressions.

所以人们已经在用计算机进行许多高开销的运算了。

So there's already lots of very high overhead computation that people do with their computers.

视频是个很好的例子，音频也是个很好的例子。

Video is a great example, audio is a great example.

区块链上发生的事情更类似于文本，比如纳瓦尔减25，维塔利克加25。

The things that happen in the blockchain are more similar to text, like Nafal minus 25, Vitalik plus 25.

这就是极其简单、极其高效的东西。

It's this extremely simple, extremely efficient stuff.

因此完全可以让成千上万甚至数百万用户的活动都由一台计算机验证，因为区块链并不处理所有事情。

So it is perfectly viable to have many thousands of users and even millions of users' activity all get verified by one single computer because the blockchain doesn't do everything.

区块链只处理这些核心业务逻辑，但核心业务逻辑其实并不那么复杂。

The blockchain just does this core business logic, and but the core business logic is not actually all that complex.

这是由于区块链的限制所致。

This is because of the constraints of blockchains.

这是区块链冗余约束的结果，我们只能负担将'纳瓦尔减25，斜体加25'这样的数据放在区块链上。

It's a function of the constraints of all the redundancy you have to have when you're on blockchains, that we can only afford to put the Naval minus 25, Italic plus 25 on the blockchain.

长期目标是让越来越多低价值的计算也能在区块链上进行。

The goal in the long run is that we want to make it so that more and more kinds of low value computations can also be happening on the blockchain.

但目前出于必要性，只有高价值交易才能承担得起这个成本。

But right now, out of necessity, only high value transactions can afford to pay the cost.

先退一步说，你们所做的是在云端构建了一台计算机，一台由数千或数万台真实计算机拼接而成的虚拟计算机。

So to back up for a second, what you've done is you've built a computer in the cloud, a virtual computer that's stitched out of thousands or tens of thousands of real computers.

而且那台计算机效率非常低。

And that computer is very inefficient.

它运行得非常缓慢。

It's very slow.

它的运行速度会非常缓慢。

It's going to move at a very slow speed.

因此将其吞吐量与家用电脑或超级计算机相比毫无意义，也偏离了重点。

So comparing it in throughput to your home computer or to a supercomputer is nonsense is besides the point.

但任何运行在其上的代码都非常可靠，你知道它没有被黑客入侵过。

But any piece of code running on this is very trustworthy, and you know it hasn't been hacked.

现在你不再需要政府，也不再需要像马克·扎克伯格运营Facebook这样的中间人来告诉你哪些交易有效、哪些合约有效、哪些程序有效、哪些无效。

And now you no longer need a government or you no longer need a single actor in the middle like a Mark Zuckerberg running Facebook to tell you which transactions are valid, which contracts are valid, which programs are valid, and which ones aren't.

你消除了对可信第三方的需求，取而代之的是由数千或数万台计算机审计、验证和检查的可信计算机。

You've done away with the need for trusted third parties, and you've replaced it with a trusted computer that is being audited, verified, and checked by thousands or tens of thousands of computers.

技术复杂性在于扩展这个系统，让这台计算机更快，保持其安全性，建立经济、技术和博弈论上的激励机制以防止人们入侵和破坏它，并设置激励机制让人们愿意向网络中添加计算机，同时设置使用网络的抑制机制。

The technological complexity comes in scaling this, making this computer faster, keeping it secure, creating incentives, both economic and technological and game theoretic to prevent people from hacking it and breaking it, and having an incentive mechanism in there so that people want to add computers to this network, and also having a disincentive mechanism to use the network.

你必须为此付费，否则很容易使其不堪重负。

You have to pay for it, otherwise you can easily overwhelm it.

这个庞大的装置就是以太坊。

This giant contraption is Ethereum.

当然，人们也陆续创建了其他智能合约区块链。

People have, of course, come along and created other smart contract blockchains.

尽管我们称之为智能合约区块链，但它实际上是一台云端可信计算机，理论上可以运行任何应用程序，但以性能换取安全性。

But even though we call it a smart contract blockchain, it's really a trusted computer in the cloud that can, in theory, run any application, but it trades off performance in exchange for security.

这种安全性可以通过去中心化程度来衡量。

And that security can be measured through decentralization.

换句话说，没有任何单一实体能控制这台计算机。

In other words, no single entity can control the computer.

可以通过代码的安全性来衡量，比如它是否会被黑客攻击等等。

It can be measured in terms of how secure is the code, can it be hacked or not, etcetera, etcetera.

其中还蕴含了许多微妙而美妙的非显性元素。

And there's a lot of subtle and beautiful elements that come out of it that are non obvious.

因为我们习惯于认为计算机就是由某些公司运营的，比如Facebook运行着一些计算机。

Because we're used to thinking of computers as, okay, Facebook runs some computers.

这些是由马克·扎克伯格及其团队运营的中央计算机，代码并不公开。

These are central computers run by Mark Zuckerberg and crew, and the code is not open.

当然，我无权查看这些代码。

Of course, I'm not entitled to see the code.

我只是个普通用户。

I'm just a user.

我并不拥有自己的数据。

I don't own my data.

数据归他们所有。

They own the data.

数据存储在那个数据库中。

It's sitting in that database.

而我无法直接访问该数据库进行读写操作。

And I don't have access to the database to read or write from it.

我必须通过Facebook才能请求对数据库进行读写。

I have to go to Facebook and ask them to read or write from the database.

但现在你创建了一个代码完全开放的计算机系统。

But now you've created a computer where the code is all open.

事实上，即便是数据也是开放的，但其中一部分经过加密，一部分则没有。

In fact, even the data is open, but some of it's encrypted, some of it's not.

有些数据任何人都可以查看。

Some data anyone has access to see.

有些数据你需要拥有加密解密密钥才能访问。

Some data you actually need to have your encryption decryption key to get access to.

只要拥有适当权限，任何人都可以读取或写入数据。

And anyone can read or write from it if they have the proper permissions.

这是个令人震撼的疯狂概念。

This is a mind blowingly crazy concept.

这是一个真正共享的数据库，没有所有者，权限细化到用户层面，数据实际由用户拥有。

It is a truly shared database with no owner and permissions at a very granular user level where the users actually own the data.

事实上，用户还拥有运行这个数据库的网络。

And in fact, the users own the network that's now run by this database.

所以如果有人基于以太坊开发下一个Facebook应用，他们可以设计成让用户真正拥有这个应用。

So if someone built the next Facebook application on top of Ethereum, they could engineer in such a way that users actually own that application.

这是以太坊背后的非凡成就，很难用几句话概括。

This is the remarkable achievement underlying Ethereum, and it's hard to encapsulate in a few words.

我曾尝试这样描述：智能合约是由数学构筑的城堡，彼此自由交易。

But one way that I tried to do it was I said, smart contracts are castles made of math freely trading with each other.

这些城堡坚不可摧。

Castles, these are impregnable.

加密技术非常强大，能构建坚固的防御，它们由数学构成，很像你年轻时编程的那些电子游戏。

Encryption is very strong and creates a strong defense, but they're made out of mathematics very much like the video games that you are programming in your youth.

这些是由世界各地匿名或化名的人共同构建的结构，他们彼此之间进行自由贸易，每个城堡的主人决定与其他人进行何种交易。

These are constructs put together by anyone anonymously or pseudonymously around the world, And they're engaging in free trade with each other, where the owner of each castle is deciding what trade happens with somebody else.

显然这存在重大限制。

Now there are obviously substantial limitations to this.

那么让我们来谈谈这些限制。

So let's talk about the limitations.

我们已经讨论过这个计算机网络将以大约一台计算机的速度运行，至少在我们找到扩展和增长的方法之前是这样。

We've already talked about how this computer network is going to move at the speed of roughly one computer, at least until we get into some of the ways to scale it and to grow it.

但这个网络还有哪些其他限制？

But what are other limitations of this network?

你能给我们一些具体的应用场景吗？说明它适合做什么以及不适合用在哪些地方？

Can you give us some concrete applications of what's good for and where you wouldn't use it?

除了扩展性之外，另一个主要的性能限制是延迟。

So aside from scaling the other big performance limit on it is the latency.

当我发送一笔交易时，可能需要等待大约半分钟才能被包含并收到确认。

So when I send a transaction, I have to wait maybe about half a minute for the transaction to get included and to get a confirmation back.

未来这种情况会有所改善。

Now in the future, this is going to get somewhat more efficient.

可能很快就能实现十到十二秒的延迟。

Maybe like ten to twelve seconds is going to be realistic soon.

但这并不是一个实时系统，比如你不应该把实时游戏逻辑放在上面运行。

But this isn't a real time thing that you would stick real time video game logic onto, for example.

你可以用它进行支付，但可能不想将其用于比支付需求更实时的场景。

You could use it for payments, but you probably don't want to use it for things that are more real time than payments need to be.

这是一个限制。

That's one limitation.

另一个限制是透明度属性。

Another limitation is the transparency properties.

这可能正是我们需要深入探讨密码学细节的地方。

This probably is one of those places where we might have to get into some of the cryptography weeds.

但基本上，区块链本身是完全透明的，对吧？

But basically, the blockchain by itself is fully transparent, right?

所有人都能看到发生的每一件事。

Everyone can see everything that's going on.

如果我们回到那个例子，将这家公司的股票发行在区块链上，那么当纳法尔转给我他的25股时，全世界都会看到这笔交易。

If we go back to the example and we issue the shares of this company on the blockchain, then when Nafal sends me his 25 shares, everyone in the world is going to be able to see that.

有些情况下这完全没问题，但有些情况下你可能需要隐私保护。

Now, there might be some cases where that's totally fine, but there might be some cases where you want some privacy.

而正是在这个领域，你往往能同时获得隐私和安全性。

And this is one of those areas where you often can get privacy and security at the same time.

这里涉及额外的密码学数学。

There's this extra cryptographic math.

不需要深入探讨，但值得提一下这个术语——零知识证明。

Don't need to get into it in-depth, but it's worth saying the name, it's zero knowledge proofs.

我对零知识证明的理解是：它能证明关于某条信息的真实性，而无需透露该信息本身。

The way that I describe zero knowledge proofs are that it's a way of proving something about a piece of information without revealing that piece of information.

假设我们要开发同样的应用——将公司股票上链，但区块链记录的不是25、50和100这些数字，而是25的加密版本、50的加密版本和100的加密版本。

Let's say we're going to have the same application, the shares of my company on the blockchain, except instead of the blockchain recording the numbers 25, fifty, and one hundred, the blockchain is going to record an encrypted version of 25, an encrypted version of 50, and an encrypted version of 100.

当Nival给我发送他的25份股份时，他会说：这是我当前持有股份数量的加密数据。

And then when Nival sends me his 25 shares, he's going to say, Here is the encryption of the number of shares I have right now.

这是我即将拥有的新股份数量的加密数据。

Here is the encryption of the new number of shares I'm going to have.

这是我给Vitalik的股份数量的加密数据。

Here is the encryption of the number of shares I'm giving Vitalik.

然后这里还有这个神奇的密码学证明，表明这些数字是对得上的。

And then here is this magic cryptographic proof that says that the numbers line up.

它证明x加y等于z，而且我没有试图转出超过实际持有的数量。

It says x plus y equals z, and I'm not trying to give away more than I actually have.

你可以验证所有操作都遵守规则，而无需验证特定交易的具体操作内容和参数。

You can verify that everything's following the rules without verifying which specific thing a particular transaction is doing and with what parameters.

因此存在同时恢复安全性和隐私性的方法。

So there are ways to get back your security and privacy at the same time.

你能获得的隐私程度仍然存在某些限制。

There are still some limits to how much privacy you can get.

例如即使在这种情况下，人们仍能看到何时有人在使用这个特定应用。

For example, even in this case, people can see when people are interacting with this particular application at all.

如果仅使用区块链，你会丧失大量隐私。

If you just use a blockchain, you lose a lot of privacy.

如果使用区块链加零知识证明再加其他密码学技术，通常能恢复大量隐私。

If you use a blockchain plus zero knowledge proofs and plus other kinds of cryptography, you can often get back a lot of privacy.

你甚至可能获得比中心化系统更多的隐私，因为在传统中心化系统中，运营一切的Facebook会看到所有信息。

And you can potentially get even more privacy than in the centralized case, because in a traditional centralized system, there is the Facebook that runs everything and then sees everything.

但在这类系统中，不存在中心化的控制者。

But with these kinds of systems, there is no one at the center.

有的只是这座数学城堡，以及负责验证证明的人。

All there is is this mathematical castle in this guy verifying the proofs.

理论上，我们可以实现匿名的数字货币。

So in theory, we could get digital cash, which is anonymous.

更进一步，我们甚至能实现匿名的智能合约——你我能知道彼此与合约交互过，但除此之外的细节都将隐去。

One step further, we could even get anonymous smart contracts, where maybe you can tell you and I interacted with a smart contract, but the details beyond that are lost.

连理论上都不行。

Not even in theory.

这是已经存在的事物。

This is something that's existed.

Zcash已经存在五年多了。

Zcash has been around for more than five years now.

Zcash是基于零知识证明构建的区块链，所有交易、收款方和付款方都能保持匿名。

Zcash is a blockchain that is built around zero knowledge proofs where all the transactions, the recipients, and the senders can be anonymous.

用他们的话说，这真是'月球数学'般深奥。

Truly moon math, as they say.

让我们快进一下时间线。

So let's fast forward a bit.

十年后，二十年后——我知道在区块链领域这很遥远，毕竟比特币2009年才出现，以太坊更是2010年代初才问世。

Ten years from now, twenty years from now, I know that's really long out in blockchain land because Bitcoin only came around in 2009, and Eth only came around in the early teens.

假设十年或二十年后，我们已经完成了所有必要的艰难技术攻坚。

But let's say ten or twenty years from now, we've done all the hard engineering that we need.

我们已经构建了能想象到的所有技术。

We've built as much technology as we can imagine.

区块链的可扩展性和隐私性有哪些限制？

What are the limits of blockchain scalability and privacy?

我们的终点在哪里？

Where do we end up?

我们最终能否实现所有希望保密的交易都真正保密，还是你认为大部分交易仍会公开？

Do we end up with every transaction we wanna have private is private, or do you think a lot of them stay public?

你认为我们会将区块链应用于几乎所有云计算领域，还是它仍局限于金融和高价值领域？

Do you think that we're using blockchains for almost all cloud computing or is it still limited into the financial and high value domain?

需要重点指出的是，区块链的可扩展性正在提升，而且提升速度会相当快。

One of the things that it's important to mention is that the scalability of blockchains is improving and it's going to improve pretty rapidly.

当前区块链的运作方式是：我发送一笔交易，交易进入网络，网络中的每台计算机都必须验证这笔交易。

The way that blockchains work today is I send a transaction, the transaction gets on the network, and every single computer on the network has to verify that transaction.

确实存在扩容技术。

There are scaling techniques.

再次说明，我们不必深入细节，但诸如roll up、分片等技术，它们能让你以更聪明的方式使用区块链——虽然仍存在大量冗余计算，但效率已大幅提升。

Once again, we don't have to get into the weeds, but things like roll ups, charting, these are technologies that allow you to use blockchains in a more clever way where you still have a lot of very redundant computation happening, but it's much more efficient.

那么具体有哪些不同的技术？

So what are the different techniques?

我们来逐一讨论这些技术。

Let's just go through those.

在中心化系统中，发送一笔交易时，你发送给Facebook，Facebook用一台电脑验证即可。

So centralized system, send a transaction, you send it to Facebook, Facebook has one computer, one computer verifies it.

区块链系统中，你有10万台计算机，当你发送交易时，所有10万台计算机都会进行验证。

A blockchain, you have 100,000 computers, you send your transaction, all 100,000 computers verify it.

分片技术下，发送交易时系统会从10万台计算机中随机选择1000台，由这1000台计算机验证并确认交易。

Sharding, send your transaction, the system randomly chooses 1,000 computers, out of 100,000 computers, those 1,000 computers verify it and the transaction gets accepted.

因此不是所有10万台计算机都参与验证，而是只有1000台进行验证。

So instead of all 100,000 computers verifying, only 1,000 computers verifying.

当系统处理大量交易时，网络中的每台计算机平均只需验证约1%的总活动量。

When you have lots of transactions being accepted into the system, every single computer in the network on average is only going to have to verify like maybe 1% of all the activity.

实际上还能进一步提高效率。

You can actually crank up the efficiency even higher.

最终可以说每台计算机甚至不需要验证1%，可能只需验证0.1%。

Eventually you could say every computer doesn't even have to verify 1%, every computer maybe only has to verify 0.1%.

想想BT下载的工作原理对吧？

Think of how Bittorrent works, right?

BT网络也是一个高度分布式的系统。

Bittorrent is also like a highly distributed network.

如果你想下载热门电影，通常都能成功。

If you want to download the really popular movies, you generally can.

但在BT网络中，并不是每台计算机都要下载所有电影，那样就太疯狂了。

But on Bittorrent, you don't literally have every computer download every movie because that's totally crazy.

平均而言，每部电影会有几百个种子节点，也许几千个。

On average, the movies were gonna have a few 100 seaters, maybe a few thousand seaters.

这个数量既能保证冗余度让你获取所需内容，又不会冗余到导致效率低下。

So that number is big enough that you have the redundancy and you can generally get the content that you want, but it's not so redundant that it just becomes crazy inefficient.

问题是，能否创建一个网络，在数据分布和效率方面像BitTorrent那样运作，但同时具备区块链的验证特性？

The question is, can you create a network that works the way that BitTorrent works from the point of view of data distribution and efficiency, but creates something that still has the same verification properties that Blockchains do?

这就是分片技术的作用。

That is what sharding does.

分片技术的弱点之一是技术实现更为复杂。

One of the weaknesses of sharding is that it is more technically complicated.

你需要实际制定规则，明确这些交易如何在节点间进行分割。

You have to actually do the work to figure out what exactly are the rules by which these transactions get split apart between the nodes.

如何让它们彼此通信？

How do you make them all talk to each other?

如何进行这种分布式验证？

How do you do this distributed verification?

从协议角度看更简单的方法是：要求网络中的每个节点都具备强大算力。

The approach that is simpler from a protocol perspective is to just say, we're going to require every node in this network to be really powerful.

这样就不是普通笔记本电脑能当节点了，每个节点几乎都需要是超级计算机级别。

So instead of a laptop being able to be a node, would require every node to be almost a supercomputer.

如果这样做，区块链仍能保持现有运作方式，但能处理更多交易。

If you do that, then you can make blockchains that still work the way that they work today, but they could process more transactions.

或许每秒处理量能从50笔提升到1000笔甚至5000笔。

Maybe instead of being able to process 50 a second, they they might be able to process a thousand a second or 5,000 a second.

这种方法的弱点（也是以太坊不采用它的原因）在于会导致更严重的中心化，对吧？

The weakness of this approach and the reason why Ethereum is not taking this approach is that it leads to more centralization, right?

实际能验证交易的人数会减少。

The number of people who can actually verify what's going on decreases.

试图推动协议变更而不顾用户意愿所需的共谋人数会大幅减少。

The number of people who need to collude to try to push through some change to the protocol that the users might not want becomes much smaller.

它仍然比Facebook去中心化得多，但相比可能达到的程度却大大降低了去中心化水平。

It's still much more decentralized than Facebook, but it becomes much less decentralized than it could be.

也许在某些情况下这是正确的做法。

And maybe in some cases that's the right approach.

如果你想开发一个去中心化的视频游戏，你希望它是去中心化的，但如果它被控制，人们不会损失数亿美元，那么这种更中心化的方式可能完全没问题。

If you want to make like a decentralized video game, you want it to be decentralized, but it's not the sort of thing where if it gets captured, people lose hundreds of millions of dollars, then maybe this more centralized approach is actually totally fine.

中间存在一整类应用场景这样做是合适的。

There is this whole spectrum of applications in the middle where it's fine.

但如果你需要高保障性的系统，那么确实需要将去中心化程度推向极限。

But if you want something that's high assurance, then you do want to break the decentralization up closer to the maximum.

而当前的以太坊确实提供了这一点。

And the current Ethereum does provide that.

它提供了极高程度的去中心化和可验证性，但代价是可扩展性。

It does provide this very high level of decentralization and high level of verifiability, but at the expense of scaling.

所以我们通过分片技术试图实现的是：能否在保持这种高度去中心化和可验证性的同时，还能获得更高的可扩展性。

So what we're trying to do with sharding is we're trying to say, can you provide this high level of decentralization and high level of verifiability and still have a higher level of scaling at the same time.

我想就这个去中心化问题进一步探讨。

I wanna probe a little bit further on this decentralization question.

许多刚进入加密领域的人，特别是缺乏经验的人，都注意到去中心化很重要。

A lot of folks who are coming into crypto, especially if they don't have a lot of experience, they notice that decentralization is important.

如果不相信去中心化在某种程度上很重要，是很难最终进入加密领域的。

It's hard to end up in crypto without believing that decentralization matters to some degree.

但问题在于为何选择这里？

But the question is why here?

当你出现时，会看到一个关于去中心化程度的文化滑块，而以太坊的要求是必须能在笔记本电脑上验证以太坊。

You show up and there's a cultural slider about how much decentralization is the right amount, and Ethereum is like you have to be able to verify Ethereum on a laptop.

那么问题来了，为什么是笔记本电脑？

And the question is why a laptop?

默认进行验证的用户数量越多，区块链就越安全。

The larger the number of users that are verifying by default, the more secure a blockchain is.

因为极端情况下，如果除了10个不同的质押池外无人默认验证，那么只需这10个质押池联合同意，就能强行推行用户可能不喜欢的规则变更。

Because in the extreme, if nobody verifies by default except 10 different staking pools, then all that you need to try to force a change to the rules that the users might not like is 10 staking pools to come together and agree on it.

但另一方面，如果有1万名用户默认通过本地验证与链交互，并且我们只接受这些用户认为有效的区块。

But if on the other hand you have 10,000 users where the way that those users interact with the chain by default is they verify it locally and we accept blocks if they see those blocks as being valid.

如果有人想推动规则变更，他们必须说服所有用户接受这一改变。

If someone wants to try to push some change to the rules, they actually have to go to the users and they have to convince the entire set of users to go along with it.

这个门槛要高得多。

That's a much higher bar.

假设我是Solana。

Let's say that I'm Solana.

Solana是一个超高吞吐量的区块链，其硬件要求远高于以太坊。

Solana is a super high throughput blockchain, has much higher hardware requirements than what Ethereum has.

如果我是Solana的支持者，我可能会说：看，以太坊有大约5000个节点，大致在这个数量级。

If I were a Solana proponent, I might say, look, Ethereum has 5,000 some odd nodes, something in that ballpark.

为了讨论方便，假设Solana可能只有十分之一的节点数量。

Solana might have, let's say for the sake of argument, one tenth the number of nodes.

要让Solana网络中的所有人都未能注意到其内部发生的根本性故障或安全违规，这实际上是非常困难的。

To actually get everybody in Solana to somehow fail to notice that there's been some fundamental failure or safety violation within Solana would be very difficult.

是的，虽然Solana的节点数量只有以太坊的十分之一，但以太坊有特定数量的节点，Solana也有特定数量的节点。

Yes, it's one tenth the number of nodes in Ethereum, but Ethereum just has some number of nodes, Solana has some number of nodes.

它们的规模都相当庞大，社区也足够大，一旦出现问题都能及时察觉。

They're all pretty large, and they're all large enough communities that they would notice if something were to go wrong.

对于那些支持Solana的人说'看，它用的是消费级硬件，虽然是高端消费级硬件，但只要有足够动力的人仍能验证交易'，你的反驳论点是什么？

What is your counterargument to the Solana advocate who says, look, it's consumer hardware, it's expensive consumer hardware, but it's still consumer hardware and somebody who's sufficiently motivated can still go out and verify Solana transactions?

我认为这个问题不仅关乎运行节点的技术门槛，更在于当运行节点变得足够简单时，人们是否愿意默认参与其中。

The way that I think about this is it's not just about what is the level of technical capability of running a node, it's once it gets to the point where running a node is so easy that people are comfortable doing it by default, right?

如果运行节点困难但可行，人们就会持续面临节省时间而转向其他节点的压力。

If running a node is hard but possible, that there just is this constant pressure to try to save time and point yourself to another node.

甚至可能连参与'Yep, Roof Stake'共识机制的人也会开始指向同一个节点。

Potentially, even some of the people participating in the Yep, Roof Stake consensus are going to start pointing to the same node.

我记得几年前EOS就发生过这种情况。

I think that actually happened in EOS a couple of years back.