莫莉·皮科克，《寡妇的蜡笔盒》（WW诺顿出版社，2025年）

欢迎来到新书网络。

Welcome to The New Books Network.

大家好，欢迎收听新书网络。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to NBN.

我是主持人霍莉·加德里，今天非常荣幸能邀请到备受喜爱、享誉国际的诗人兼女性创造力传记作家——莫莉·皮科克，来聊聊她最新诗集《寡妇的蜡笔盒》。这本书由W.W.诺顿公司出版，我记得是2025年推出的。

I'm your host, Hollay Ghadery, and I am really thrilled and honored to have joining me today the beloved and internationally acclaimed poet and biographer of women's creativity and an all around lovely person, Molly Peacock, talk about her latest collection of poems, The Widow's Crayon Box, which was released with WW Norton and Company in 2000 I think it was '25.

我现在完全没概念现在是哪一年了。

I have no concept with the year anymore.

莫莉，欢迎来到节目。

Molly, welcome to the show.

能来这儿真的特别开心。

Well, it's so great to be here.

谢谢你邀请我，霍莉。

Thank you in for inviting me, Hollay.

这本书是2025年出版的，不过平装本是这个月才刚上市，对吧？

It was released in 2025, but the paperback has just come out, right, this month.

所以我很高兴能在这里聊聊这本平装版。

So that's why I'm excited to speak about the paperback here.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且我很喜欢这本平装版上引用了Alex Curtis在《Rain Taxi》上的评价。

And I I love the, the paperback has a great blurb from Alex Curtis from Rain Taxi.

Peacock施展了她标志性的抒情魔力。

Peacock works her trademark lyrical magic.

这句诗评真是再贴切不过了，确实说出了重点，我觉得Alex……

And, I mean, that is such a perfect poet quote because it is true and it captures I mean, I think Alex no.

我想……

I think.

我知道Alex自己也是个诗人。

I know Alex is a poet himself.

他用这么简短的话，就抓住了你作品的核心与精髓。

And in such a few words, he's captured the heart and the essence of so much of your work.

莫莉，给我们的听众多讲讲这本书，也讲讲你自己吧。

Molly, let's just give our listeners a little bit more about the book and about you.

丈夫去世后，莫莉·皮科克发现，自己并没有活成人们常说的寡妇该有的那种灰暗生活，反而像打开了整盒152色的蜡笔，把生活染得五彩斑斓。

Listeners, after her husband's death, Molly Peacock realized she was not living the received idea of a widow's mauve existence, but instead was experiencing life with all 152 colors of the crayon box.

于是她写出了这一组美妙的诗篇，有喜悦，有愤怒，有哀伤，有迷茫，有性感，有崩溃，有奇思妙想，最重要的是，深深打动人心。

The result is a collection of gorgeous poems, which are joyful, furious, mournful, bewildered, sexy, devastated, whimsical, and above all, moving.

这些诗既照亮了作为照护者的生活，也呈现了失去挚爱之后那些清晰而强烈的情感。

They illuminate both life as a caregiver and the crystalline emotions one can experience after the death of a cherished partner.

凭借她一贯的精湛技艺、直面最艰难情绪的勇气，以及始终如一的活力与热情，莫莉描绘出了二十一世纪寡妇的真实图景。

With her characteristic virtuosity, her fearless willingness to confront even the most difficult emotion, and always with buoyancy and zest, Molly charts widowhood in the twenty first century.

莫莉·皮科克已出版了八部诗集，其中最新的一部《寡妇的蜡笔盒》刚刚推出了平装本。

Molly Peacock is the author of eight volumes of poetry, including most recently and again just released in paperback, The Widow's Crayon Box.

作为诗歌推广者，莫莉是纽约地铁和公交车上‘诗歌行动’的联合创始人，也是《最佳加拿大诗歌》系列的创办者，还创建了宾汉姆顿大学的‘秘密诗室’。

As a poetry activist, Molly is the cofounder of Poetry in Motion on New York's subways and buses and the founder of The Best Canadian Poetry Series and the creator of The Secret Poetry Room at Binghamton University.

莫莉，我们直接切入正题吧，给那些还不了解这本诗集的听众介绍一下。

Molly, let's dive right in for people who may not know about this collection.

如果你还不知道这本书，那你这段时间都去哪儿了？

And if you don't know about it, where have you been?

这本书简直无处不在。

This collection's been everywhere.

我只想说，它被《约翰斯·霍普金斯大学杂志》《自由落体》《白墙评论》这些刊物都评过。

I just wanna say it, you know, it was, been reviewed in John Hopkins University Magazine, Free Fall Magazine, The White Wall Review.

加拿大广播公司还专门做了纪录片，而且《环球邮报》和《多伦多星报》也都刊发了专栏文章。

CBC did a documentary on it, and you also got columns featured in The Globe and Mail and Toronto Star.

所以我感觉这书好像到处都能看到。

So I feel like I was seeing this book everywhere.

但对于那些还没听说过的听众，你能跟我们说说，这本书最初是怎么开始的吗？

But for for people who may not have heard about it, would you tell us a little bit about where it started for you?

其实，那是在我丈夫去世两个月后开始的。

Well, it started about two months after my husband died.

我们在一起的时间特别长。

We had a really long relationship.

我们结婚二十八年，但其实十四岁就认识了。

We had a long marriage, twenty eight years, but we met when we were 14 years old.

高中时是情侣，上大学后分手了。就像迈克常说的，我们各自跟别人谈过恋爱，同一年分别结婚，又同一年离婚。

And then we were boyfriend and girlfriend in high school, broke up in at university, and as Mike used to say, practiced on other people, got married to other people in the same year, got divorced from the other people in the same year.

直到我们分开十九年后再次相遇，才重新走到一起，结了婚。

And finally, nineteen years after we had last seen one another, met again and got married.

我们的关系，感觉就像活在一部小说里。

So our relationship was we felt like we were living in a novel.

我已故的丈夫是研究詹姆斯·乔伊斯的学者，对小说特别了解。

And my late husband was a James Joyce scholar, so he knew lots about novels.

他总说：‘我对诗歌一窍不通。’

And he would say, oh, I don't know anything about poetry.

所以我有自己的诗歌世界，这在婚姻里反而是件好事。

So I had my poetry life to myself, which is a good thing in a marriage.

他还是一位战胜了四期黑色素瘤、存活了四十年的幸存者。

He also was a forty year stage four, melanoma survivor.

他走后，我哭了整整二十八天。

And after he died, I cried for twenty eight days.

直到几年后我才意识到，这一天对应着我们婚姻的每一年。

I didn't realize till a couple of years later that that was one day for each of the years that we were married.

那二十八天结束后，我自然而然地停了下来，自己都没察觉已经好几天没哭了。后来我才明白，我需要像霍莉说的那样，把内心的感受表达出来——悲伤从来不是那种空洞的麻木，它有千百种颜色，就像一盒一百五十二色的彩铅。

And after those twenty eight days, when I stopped, which was just unconscious, I didn't realize I had stopped for a couple of days, and then I began to need to express what you were saying, Hollay, that the emotions I was feeling was it was not just that kind of blankness that we ascribe to mourning, that grief is in tons of colors, all 152 colors of the cram box.

于是我开始写下一些零散的文字，关于他，关于我们婚姻的点点滴滴，关于他通过医助自杀离世的过程，关于我们关系的底色，以及我如何一步步学会独自生活。

And I began writing bits and pieces about him, about our marriage, about, the fact that he died through the MAID process, the medical assistance in dying, the fabric of our relationship and the very beginnings of my having to figure out how to live on my own.

于是，我写下了这组主要的十四行诗。

And so I started the main sonnet sequence.

当时我并不知道这会成为《寡妇的彩铅盒》的核心诗组，但我就这样开始了。

I didn't know it was gonna be the main sonnet sequence, but I started the main sonnet sequence of The Widow's Crayon Box.

事情就是这样发生的。

That's how it happened.

是的。

Mhmm.

我是真没想到，这本书里的情绪起伏这么大。

I mean, I can't get over the whiplash emotions in this book.

而且很多时候，好几种情绪会同时涌上来。

And, I mean, there are so many of them often happening all at once.

读完这本叫《寡妇的蜡笔盒》的书，我没想到最后留给我最深的感受居然是轻松和好奇，那种玩味的感觉。

And one of the one of the feelings I left this collection with which I was not expecting to feel overwhelmingly at the end of a collection called The Widow's Crayon Box was playfulness, a sense of curiosity and play.

要说最喜欢的诗，我真难挑出一首，但有一首我特别喜欢，你知道的，我是我所在地区的桂冠诗人。

My my favorite poem it's hard for me to pick a favorite poem in the book, but it's such a favorite that I, as you know, I'm poet laureate of the region in which I live.

我把这首诗印了出来，到处贴在我担任桂冠诗人那片区域的各个地方。

I printed it out, and and left it around my my laureateship area.

《下一个世界是思想的世界》。

It's the next world is one of ideas.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

谢谢你。

Oh, thank you.

我再说一遍这首诗的名字，身上都起鸡皮疙瘩了。

I got chills just just saying the name of the poem again.

真的太美了。

It is so beautiful.

还有《蜜脆》这首，写苹果，也特别有童趣。

And then there's also Honeycrisp, which is super playful as well about an apple.

我想听听你谈谈创作中的这种玩味感，以及它对你来说是否重要，如果重要的话，为什么。

And I'd love for you to speak to the playfulness and your work and maybe a bit about why it's important to you, if it is important to you.

当然重要，对我而言非常重要。

Oh, it is it is important to me.

很久以前，我上过一门大学课程，叫《诗歌即游戏》。

A long time ago, I actually took a university course called poetry as play.

我们读了一本荷兰哲学家的书。

And we read a book by the Dutch philosopher.

我肯定把他的名字念错了，不过我就说哈伊津加吧。

I'm sure I'm gonna mangle his name, but I'm just gonna say, Huizenga.

是 H-U-I-Z-Z-E-D-N-G-A。

That's h u I z zed I n g a.

约翰·海辛格。

Johan Heisinger.

那本书叫《 Homo Ludens 》，意思是玩的人，而不是思考的人类。

And, the book is called homo Ludens, meaning humans playing instead of homo sapiens humans thinking.

我立刻就把这个想法和写诗联系起来了，那是一种非游戏式的玩味。

And I connected that with writing poetry immediately that there is a sense of not a game.

我不太愿意用‘游戏’这个词。

I wouldn't call it game.

我更愿意说，那是探索、好奇与编排中的那种玩兴。

I but I would call it the playfulness of discovery, curiosity, and arrangement.

当然，玩也有规则，哪怕是你自己发明的游戏。

I mean, play does have rules, even if when you're making up a game.

我挺幸运的，到现在还能偶尔和小时候住隔壁的男孩聊上几句，那时候我们才三岁。

I was I I have the privilege of still occasionally talking to the boy who was my next door neighbor when we were three.

我们总会编些游戏，然后逼着年幼的兄弟姐妹加入我们，简直像折磨他们一样。

And we would make up games and then make our younger siblings you know, torture them into joining us in these games.

尽管玩得随性，我们一上来就定了规矩。

And immediately, we had rules even though we had whimsy.

我觉得我所喜欢写的那种诗，也有它自己的规则。

And I feel that poetry, the kind of poetry that I like to write, has its has its rules.

什么才构成一行诗？

What makes a line?

你如何构建一种声音体系，既能轻盈灵动，又能承载最深沉、最黑暗的情感？

How can you make a sound system that can be buoyant and playful even as you are expressing the the the deepest and the darkest of emotions?

杰拉德·曼利·霍普金斯写过一首十四行诗，是他那些所谓‘绝望诗’中的一首，开头是：‘最糟的，已无更糟。’

There's a sonnet by Gerard Manley Hopkins, one of his so called desolate sonnets, and it begins, no worst there is none.

他在描述那种抑郁的状态。

And he's talking about this depression.

你能把多少负面情绪塞进一个开篇里呢？

And it it is, I mean, how much negativity can you back into an opening?

不是。

No.

最糟的，已经没有更糟的了。

Worst, there is none.

当他逐步描绘内心情感时，这首诗却变得越来越轻盈，越来越富有玩味。

And as he works through describing his emotions, the poem gets lighter and lighter, more and more playful.

他说，心灵自有高山，这话一点不假。

And he says the mind the mind has mountains, and and it's true.

心灵中有一整片天地，包括平原、阶梯、雪原、雨林，所有这些，都能容纳在一首抒情诗里。

There's a whole landscape in the mind, and that landscape that includes plains and steps and snowfields and rainforests, all of that, it can be contained in the lyric poem.

所以，没错，我写的是死亡，但我也在写生命的本质，写那些让我们在所爱之人离去后，依然能回应当下的一切。

So, yes, I'm writing I'm writing about death, but I'm also writing about the fabric of living and all of the things that go into our responses to being present even though someone we love is absent.

对。

Mhmm.

我最近一直在思考创造力，尤其是女性的创造力，以及好奇心如何成为生命乃至长寿的根本关键。

I've been thinking a lot about creativity, specifically women's creativity, and creativity and curiosity as a fundamental key to not only life but longevity.

我的意思是，我不确定有没有医学研究能证明好奇心强的人活得更久。

And what I mean by that is I don't know I don't know if there's medical studies that would show people who are curious live longer.

我并不是非要这么说，但我相信那些有好奇心，并能把这种好奇转化为任何形式创造力的人，通常更快乐。

I'm not necessarily saying that, but I'm saying people who are curious and who channel that curiosity into creativity in any form are probably happier.

我觉得他们确实如此。

I feel like they are.

他们更有韧性，不过我有时候对这个词不太满意。

Is that they they're more resilient, and I I have problems with that term sometimes.

但至少他们能往前走，不容易被拖住，不会经常或长时间陷在情绪里。

But but just they're able to move on with without being bogged down too much, too often, or for or for too long.

我很好奇，你的书里有没有提到好奇心？

And I was wondering about curiosity in your book.

我想再回到《下一个世界》这本书。

And I'm gonna go back to The Next The Next World World.

其中一个理念，虽然我之前提过，但我真的很喜欢这首诗，因为它同时展现了游戏感、好奇心，还有深沉的悲伤与哀痛。

Is one of ideas, which I know I've already spoken about, but I really do love the poem because I think it embodies play in curiosity and also this tremendous, grief and and sadness.

但这首诗最终就像四面八方折射的光线。

But the poem is ultimately just refracted light everywhere.

就像阳光照进满是水晶的房间，光到处都是。

It's like standing in a room of crystals when the, sun shines in, and it's just everywhere.

美得让人屏住呼吸。

And it's just breathtaking.

我知道这不是KTV，莫莉，但我还是想请你念一念这首诗。

And I know this isn't a karaoke bar, Molly, but I am gonna ask you to read it.

为我们念吧。

For us.

我很乐意念，也很高兴回应你关于好奇心的这些想法。

I'm very I'm I'm very happy to read it, and I'm very happy to respond to the whole of the ideas that you put forth about about curiosity.

等我念完诗，我们再继续聊这个话题吧。

So after I read the poem, maybe we can continue on that conversation.

《下一个世界》是一组关于理念的作品，副标题是‘协助死亡，多伦多’。

The next world is one of ideas, and it has a subtitle, made medical assistance in dying, Toronto.

关于他的离世，我们什么都没说，却什么都懂。

About his death, we talked without words.

接下来到了接受采访的时候。

Then came time for the interviews.

那位老医生和我丈夫的听力都没完全丧失。

Loss of hearing not quite total for either the old doctor or my husband.

她拿着一个小扩音器，他们只好大声喊。

She held a tiny amplifier, so they yelled.

整层楼的人都知道他的心愿。

Whole floor knew his wish.

协助死亡医疗。

Medical assistance in dying.

三位见证人。

Three witnesses.

名单、笔、环形签名，打了勾。

List, pen, loop signed, x'd.

另一位医生戴着蓝色金属框的眼镜走了进来。

A second doctor came in blue metallic glasses.

整个过程开始了。

The intervention.

我曾为猫这样抱过，现在是他，穿着他最爱的软衬衫，当他听到十五分钟后，就慢慢沉下去，静得像雪一样。

I've held cats for this, now him, soft favorite shirt, When he heard in fifteen minutes, he sank, went still as snow.

没有挣扎，没有喘息，只有轻柔的滑落，那身长毛的身躯。

No thrash, no rattle, just the glide, the long furred body.

我爱他，一直到他离世，头贴在他的胸口。

I loved even to his death, my head on his chest.

温暖的大地，我挪动身体，不是为了听他停止的心跳。

Warm earth, I shifted not to hear his stopped heart.

时钟，是他最后看到的东西，我握着他的手，直到它凉成蜡一样的灰白，行李箱就在一旁等着。

The clock, his last view, held his hand until it cooled to a waxy gray, the suitcase waiting.

下一个世界，是思想的世界。

The next world is one of ideas.

那些是他的吗？

Are those his?

阳光下的玻璃形状。

Glass shapes in the sun.

他清晰的思绪折射出来。

His clear thoughts refract.

所有的棱角都显露无遗。

All their angles made known.

你有没有接过一些想法，却纳闷为什么自己以前从来没想过？

Have you received thoughts and wondered why they've not occurred to you before?

那些可能是他的。

They could be his.

非常感谢你，莫莉。

Thank you so much, Molly.

我的意思是，这简直包罗万象。

I mean, that has everything.

这种悲伤很深，但同时，那种游戏般的、充满刺激和兴奋的感觉——当你突然灵光一现，那种顿悟的冲动，真的太强烈了。

That's such deep grief, but also, again, the playfulness and the the thrill and excitement of something occurring to you, that that rush of, you know, inspiration or eureka.

就像我说的，这么小的空间里，居然塞进了这么多东西。

I mean, it's like I said, so much packed into such a such a small space.

所以，Molly，咱们聊聊好奇心吧。

So, Molly, let let's talk about curiosity.

尤其是随着年纪增长，特别是作为女性，我很想听听你的看法。

And especially as we get older and especially as women, I I would love to hear your thoughts.

我敢打赌，你都能单独做个完整的TED演讲了。

I mean, I'm sure you could do an entire, you TED talk.

关于好奇心。

On on on curiosity.

我先回到那首诗上，我想写他离世的那一刻，因为他自己选了时间。

Well, I'm I'm I'm gonna hop back to the poem for a second and say that I wanted to write about the moment of his death because he got to choose it.

他选好了日子，也选好了时刻。

He chose the time and the day.

在他那样的病况下，人到了生命尽头，其实没多少选择余地。

And, you know, at the end of a life with the kind of illness he had, you don't have a lot of choices.

所以他还是努力做了这个决定，我想记录下来，因为能有这样的选择，真的很美。

So he made that effort to choose, and I wanted to record that because it was beautiful that he was able to have that.

然后，我想在诗里传达一种彼世的感觉。

And then I wanted to have in the poem a sense of the next world.

我已故的丈夫一生都在思考，我总觉得世界上有种思想在不断流动。

My late husband lived a life of the mind, and I just feel I have a sense of ideas circulating in the world.

旧的思想会重新出现。

Old ideas return.

某个年代的想法，说不定哪天就又在另一千年里冒出来，它们只是暂时潜伏，然后再次涌现。

Ideas from the year May somehow return in in the year 1500, somehow return at they go underground and and swoop out again.

我希望诗里能传递这种感觉，还有那种轻盈——他的思想、他的观念，依然鲜活如初。

And I wanted that I just wanted that sense and also the sense of lightness that his thoughts, his concepts and ideas, feel absolutely still have their life.

当然，这些想法在他生前就已经散播出去了。

And that they, of course, were released throughout his lifetime.

但他走后，我总觉得那些念头开始在房间里化作光点，渐渐凝聚起来。

But after he died, I just felt them I felt them start to crystallize as light in that room.

这个想法真美。

That's such a gorgeous thought.

每当我对这个世界或自己的位置感到沮丧时，我都会深吸一口气，告诉自己：我这一生，能追寻思想，已经很幸运了。

And I I always say to people whenever I get frustrated with the world or with my place in it, I take a deep breath and I say, you know, I get to spend my life in pursuit of ideas.

我觉得这真的挺幸运的。

I think that's pretty lucky.

我想，这也是为什么这首诗能深深打动我的原因之一。

And and I think that's one of the reasons that this poem connected with me.

另外，我个人还患有存在性强迫症。

And, yeah, on a personal note, I also live with existential OCD.

一想到死亡这类念头，我就容易陷入执念，那种感觉就像被恐惧紧紧掐住喉咙。

So thinking about ideas like mortality is very difficult for me without me beginning to form a fixation on it, which is like bowel clicking terror.

但这首诗里那种轻盈与 playful 的气息，那种思想不朽的意境，给了我极大的安慰，也让我感到无比振奋。

But the playfulness and light in this poem in the sense of a kind of immortality of ideas has such a beautiful comfort and so exciting too.

我没想到，读一首关于别人生命终结的诗，最后竟会感到如此振奋。

And I didn't expect to read a poem about the end of somebody's life and feel excited at the end.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我写这首诗的时候，就是希望达到这样的效果。

That's what I hoped for when I wrote the poem.

这首诗没有标点，有些词还全大写。

And the poem isn't punctuated, and it has, some words are in all caps.

我没法用声音表现出来，但文字上就是这样。

I didn't couldn't really do that with my voice, but there it is on the page.

这正是诗中那种游戏感的一部分。

That's part of the sense of play in the poem.

再回到之前的话题，我是个传记作家，也是个诗人。

And just to circle back around, I am a biographer and a poet.

其实，我是从我丈夫那儿学会如何做传记研究的，他是个学者。

And I learned how to research biographies actually from my from my husband who was a scholar.

我的第一本传记叫《纸园》。

And I my first biography was called The Paper Garden.

黛拉尼夫人七十二岁开始她的人生事业。

Missus Delaney Begins Her Life's Work at 72.

这本书讲的是一位了不起的十八世纪拼贴艺术家——玛丽·黛拉尼。

And it was about the amazing eighteenth century collage artist, Mary Delaney.

她在七十二岁时开始创作了985幅生动绚丽的植物拼贴画。

And she began these incredible 985 incredible, vibrant botanical collages when she was 72.

1872年。

In 1872.

抱歉，是1772年。

I'm sorry, in 1772.

我写她的时候一直在想，这位十八世纪的女性，怎么会在晚年创造出一种全新的艺术形式？

And she when I wrote about her, I thought, how did this woman in the eighteenth century manage to invent an art form at an advanced age?

我试着追踪她一生中所有有记录的创意时刻，这些记录非常多，涵盖了影响她生活的各种事件，以及她自己保留的生活日记和信件。

And I tried to track every instance of creativity in her life that we have a record of, and there are lots of records of that are impact missus Delaney's life and records that she kept of her own life and letters.

所以要做到这一点是完全可能的。

So it was possible to do that.

她的好奇心、对生活的热爱、冒险精神，以及在一生中克服了无数障碍，这些都不容易——因为在十八世纪，作为一个没有权力的女性，处境非常艰难。

And her curiosity, her joie de vivre, her sense of adventure, and her overcoming many, many, many obstacles in her life was not not not easy to be a powerless woman in the seventeen hundreds.

因此，我持续保持好奇心，部分源于寻找榜样，哪怕是很久以前的人，他们直到年老依然保持好奇，并鼓起勇气去做全新而独特的事。

So part of my sense of sustained curiosity comes from looking for role models of other people, even people long ago, who have sustained their curiosity and, summon up the energy to do new and unique things, as they age.

我当然是玛丽·德兰尼的铁粉，写《纸园》这本书对我来说是一段非凡的经历。

And so I I'm obviously a big fan of Mary Delaney's, and it was amazing for me to write write the paper garden.

当你谈到好奇心和长寿时，她无疑是这样的人之一。

And I think that when you talked about curiosity and longevity, she is certainly, one of one of those people.

是的。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

我有你的那本书，还有几本也放在那儿没看，之前听你提到你的传记作品，我就想一定要读一读。

I have, I have that book of yours, and I have I have a few others that are are sitting there just waiting for me because I heard you talk about your books, your biographies earlier, and I was like, I have to read these.

我最喜欢的女性创造力传记之一，现在已经绝版了，叫《玩乐的老妇人》，讲的是阿黛尔·维斯曼的母亲疯狂又奇特的玩偶制作。

One of my favorite biographies of women's creativity ever is out of print now, but it's old woman at play by Adele Wiseman about her mother's prolific and very strange doll making.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

她做了很多日常用品，比如洋葱网袋，还有把鱼骨头漂白后做成的东西。

And it's it's she made a lot of household things like onion netting and like an old fishbone that she bleached.

我总想说，这些东西有点让人毛毛的。

Like, I always wanna say it was a little unsettling.

有些玩偶本来就很诡异，但她的那些尤其诡异，却又特别可爱。

Like, some dolls just are unsettling, but hers were, like, especially unsettling but also adorable.

这本书其实是非常有意思的反思。

And it it's a really interesting commentary.

阿黛尔有一句话我特别喜欢，我觉得它和你的书、还有你刚才说的完全契合。她提到，她注意到创意人士身上总会带着每个年龄段留下的某种印记。

And one of Adele's lines that I really loved and I felt in your book and what you were just saying, one of the things she wrote was something to the effect of one thing that she notices about creative people is that they carry with them something of the eight of every age through which they've passed.

这真美。

Oh, that's lovely.

是的。

Yeah.

我很喜欢你童年的自己离现在的你并不远，那种游戏感又回来了，就像你和邻居三岁时一起编游戏，还保护着年幼的兄弟姐妹。

And I just love that your childhood self is not that far from you, and, you know, that brings back to that sense of play and you and your neighbor at three making it games that you protected your younger siblings too.

你知道的。

You know?

我一直觉得，对我而言，诗歌比其他任何文体都更像在沙箱里玩耍。

And I think that's what I always say that to me, poetry more than any other form I write in is like playing in a sandbox.

什么才有效呢？

And what works?

我们该怎么让这种感觉留住？

How do we get this to stay?

如果我们想挖个护城河，再在沙箱里加点水，得做哪些调整呢？

How what do we have to adjust if we're gonna make a moat and fill the sandbox with a bit of water?

就像……

Like

对。

Yes.

沙箱的方方正正，就像一首十四行诗的结构一样。

And, you know, the sandbox, the squareness of the sandbox is like the squareness of a poem of a of a sonnet.

我一直觉得十四行诗是方方正正的，也像一块小画布的尺寸。

And, I mean, I always think of sonnets as square, and there's also a sense of a of a canvas of the the dimensions of a small canvas.

这其实就像一个小小的游乐场。

And and that's also like a tiny playing field.

你知道的。

You know?

没错。

Yeah.

对。

Uh-huh.

没错。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得以前跟卡尔加里的诗人大卫·马丁聊过，他说自己的很多诗都沿着页面的边缘往下写。

It's a I I can remember talking to a Calgary poet David Martin who's talking about how a lot of his poems run down the gutter of a page.

还有跟玛戈·拉皮埃尔讨论过，写诗时要把整页纸都当作舞台来用。

And talking with Margo LaPierre about using the whole stage of a page when you write poetry.

我很好奇，你能不能给我们念一首？

I was wondering if you would read to us.

哦，那我来念一下你刚才提到的那首诗，是这本书的最后一首。

Oh, well, I I'm going to read the poem that you mentioned earlier, which is the last poem in the book.

它叫‘蜜脆’，我在诗里把苹果当作倾诉对象。

It's called Honeycrisp, and I use the the it's it's a I address an apple in the book.

在这首诗里，我冒了个险，以威廉·布莱克为榜样，他曾在名诗《老虎》里直接对老虎说话。

In in the poem, it's a I took a bit of a chance, but I took as my example William Blake, who addressed a tiger in his famous poem Tiger Tiger Burning Bright.

我想，既然布莱克能跟老虎对话，那在今天，我或许也能跟一个苹果说话——理由等会儿诗里自然就明白了。

And I thought, well, if Blake can talk to a tiger, maybe I can, in my time, talk to an apple for obvious reasons that the poem will make clear.

诗的结尾我用了法语里‘苹果’这个词，不过有时候发音会模糊，所以我提前说明一下，免得你们听不清。

And at the end of the poem, I use the French word for apple, plum, but sometimes that gets a little bit elided, so I just wanted to point that out before I started the poem.

蜂蜜脆。

Honeycrisp.

你好，干瘪的脸。

Hello, wizen face.

你好，苹果。

Hello, apple.

从三月起就一直待在冰箱里接受考验。

Under study in the fridge since March.

现在都九月了。

It's September.

你好，红润起皱的脸颊。

Hello, wrinkly red cheeks.

我猜你快一岁了吧。

I'll bet you're almost a year old.

你去年秋天出生，一直存放在农场半地下的果库，后来又在雪里待过，最后被我买下。

Born last autumn, kept in the fruit storage built half underground on the farm, then in the snow, sold to me.

你好，我的蜜脆苹果。

Hello, my honeycrisp.

唉，我的宝贝，现在已经不脆了。

Well, my honey, no longer crisp.

你是不是在想，为什么到现在还没被人吃掉？

Are you asking why you haven't been eaten by now?

因为那个人一直坚持着他的习惯。

Because that man hewed to his routines.

每天午餐都吃一个苹果，总是那抹鲜红的点睛之笔。

An apple for lunch every day, the same red punctuation.

你本该是他从我怀里滑落那天被挑中的那一个，我们俩都摔到了地上。

You were earmarked for the date he slipped from my arms, and we both slid to the floor.

红天使，你在听吗？

Red angel, are you listening?

911、医院、临终关怀，十天后，你大概六个月大，他走了，被放到了冰冷的架子上。

911, hospital, hospice, and ten days later, you were about six months old then, he died and was carried to a cold shelf.

你好，笑嘻嘻的果梗。

Hello, smiley stem.

你好啊，那些搬来搬去的日子。

Hello, days, moving you from spot to spot.

你好，那个我忘了你、把你扔在后面、过起新生活的星期。

Hello, week where I forgot and left you at the back and went about my new life.

你好，新买来的蔬果。

Greetings, new groceries.

它们乱七八糟地堆在一起，把你所在的格子都打乱了。

Their jumble causes a rearrangement of your bin.

所以我得把你抱起来。

So I have to pick you up.

你更希望被吃掉，以能量的形式继续存在吗？

Would you rather have been eaten and lived on as energy?

还没到时候。

Not yet.

还没到时候，我的掌心。

Not yet, my palm.

你好。

Hello.

柔软皱巴巴的小脸，躺在我手心里。

Soft, wrinkled face in my palms.

来自寡妇蜡笔盒里的蜂蜜脆苹果。

Honeycrisp from The Widow's Crayon Box.

这真是太美了。

That was so lovely.

谢谢。

Thank you.

而且我觉得，这真是一次特别美好的体验，感受到了其中的活泼与趣味。

And I again, I think that's such a wonderful experience of the playfulness in it.

我的意思是，你根本忍不住微笑，这简直是一首温柔的诗。

I mean, you can't help but smile, and it's such a tender poem.

但整个阅读过程中，我一直在笑，因为里面充满了爱与喜悦，当然也有悲伤和哀愁，但你不觉得吗？一首写得好的诗，竟能容纳这一切，一个苹果也能承载这一切。

But the whole time you're reading it, I'm smiling because there's such love and joy and, yes, grief and sadness, but it isn't incredible that a poem, a well written poem, can hold everything, and that an apple can hold.

一个苹果能装下整个世界，一首短小的抒情诗，也能装下整个世界。

An apple can hold the world, and a a small lyric poem can hold the world.

是的。

Yeah.

在我问你最后一个总是问每个人的问题之前，我很好奇，能不能跟我分享一下，这本书里有没有哪一段特别让你觉得有趣，或者让你印象特别深刻？

Before I ask you my last question, which I ask everybody, I was wondering if you could tell me out of my own curiosity, a response to this book that has particularly tickled you or that you you remember very well?

因为我不确定你有没有，但我想，我自己的反应特别强烈，估计很多人也都有类似的感受。

Because I'm I I'm not sure, like, I don't know that you have, but I would imagine I mean, I have very powerful response from to this book, and I would imagine that a lot of people did.

你有没有哪一封特别想跟我们分享的呢？

And I was wondering if there was one that you would be able to share with us.

我收到过很多来自读者的信，有人分享他们的梦境，也有人只是说，因为书里我坦率地写到自己对照顾者角色的愤怒。

I have gotten wonderful letters from people, people who shared dreams, people who have simply, shared the fact that, because in the book, I also I get, I get angry at my caregiver role.

我也会对丈夫发火，这一点我从不回避，有人因此感激我，因为终于有人写出了不是圣人般的照顾者——而我确实不是。

I get angry at my husband and I'm forthright about that, who shared their gratitude for somebody actually being a less than saintly caregiver, which I certainly was.

我印象最深的一次经历，是《蜜脆》那首诗发表在《沃尔鲁斯》杂志上，就在我的书出版之前。

And my favorite experience was after the publication of Honeycrisp, which was in The Walrus, and that came out just before the book came out.

那首诗引发的邮件数量多得惊人，还有一封手写信，反响比杂志近年来任何一首诗都要强烈——那可是全国性的刊物。

And it was the volume of email, and I think I think also a snail mail letter, that came in in response to that, that they had more responses to that poem than any recent poem in the magazine, a national magazine.

我当时就想，真没想到。

And I thought, wow.

这让我特别感动。

It's so gratifying.

世界上有那么多寡妇啊。

There are a lot of widows out there.

有很多人失去了亲人，他们不想只读一首关于黑色丧服的诗。

There are a lot of people who've lost people, and they don't just want to read a poem about a black morning dress.

人们真正回应的是那些日常而真实的情感，以及它们如何表现出来。

That somehow the real engagement with everyday vital emotions and how they manifest themselves is what people responded to.

人们也回应了书里的幽默和那种独特的俏皮劲儿。

Responding to the humor in the book and the whimsy in the book.

这让我特别感动，因为写每一首诗的时候，我都在冒险，心里总在想：别人能懂吗？

And it's extremely gratifying because I kept taking chances with every single poem that I wrote thinking, are people gonna get this?

人们对悲伤总有一种根深蒂固的刻板印象。

There's such a traditional idea of what grief is.

显然，大家真的懂了。

And, and obviously people did.

非常感谢你，霍莉，感谢你的回应，也感谢你邀请我参加这个播客。

And I'm very grateful to you, Hollay, for your response and for having me on this podcast.

你。

You.

这远远不止是荣幸。

It's more than a pleasure.

这真的是一种荣幸。

It's it's an honor.

说实话，连我自己都觉得有些事在练习中挺奇怪的，比如写一首诗，讲有一年万圣节，我带着孩子去挨家挨户要糖果，结果被引到邻居家院子里搭的一个鬼屋，突然有个稻草人跳出来吓我，我吓得没跑，直接扑进了一个陌生男人的怀里。

I mean, I felt so weird about certain things even I was doing in my practice, like writing a poem about how one Halloween I went trick or treating with my kids, and I was led into this kind of haunted house somebody had concocted in their driveway, and I was scared so badly by a scarecrow that jumped out to me that instead of running, I threw myself into this man's arms.

而且，他也不知道该怎么反应。

But and and out him.

我的恐惧反应就是往人怀里钻，贴得紧紧的。

Like, that that was my response to fear is to hold it that close.

那 guy 完全懵了，可我真的吓坏了。

I mean, the guy didn't know what to do with me, but I was so scared.

那种幽默感，就是从恐惧或者悲伤里突然冒出来的那种。

And and, like, that humor, like, seeing that humor out of out of, you know, fear or or sadness.

我曾经参加过一场葬礼，那时候我爸爸刚走，我特别难过。

I mean, I was at a funeral once, and my dad I was, like, really upset.

是我一位非常亲近的人，家里的一位老朋友，我当时眼泪都快掉下来了。

I I was somebody very close to us, a family friend, and I was tearing up.

我爸只是凑到我身边，轻轻推了我一下，指着那位去世女士的兄弟，小声说：下一个就是他。

My dad just leaned over to me and nudged me a little and pointed at the brother of the woman who had died and whispered, he's next.

我一下子没忍住，笑出声来了。

And I just burst out laughing.

而且，那场面真是……

And and it was it

就是那种情况，

was one of those things,

说真的，如果不笑一下，有时候你还能怎么办呢？

like, if if you don't laugh, what else are you gonna do sometimes?

因为我觉得，能跟悲伤和恐惧的强度相匹敌的，只有爱和快乐。

Because there's I think, the only thing that can even match the intensity of grief and fear is love and joy.

对吧？

Right?

这本书对我而言意义太深了，能读到它真的特别幸运，现在终于出了平装本，我更开心了。

So it it's it was such a powerful collection for me to read, and I'm so glad it's in the world, and I'm so glad it's in the world as paperback now.

大家赶紧去买一本吧。

So everyone, go out and get it.

当然也可以买精装版，不过现在平装本也已经上市了。

I mean, you can get hard copy too, but the paperback is here is here now as well.

莫莉，我最后一个问题，你现在在忙什么项目？

Molly, my last question for you is, what are you working on now?

当然啦，我正在写另一本诗集。

Oh, of course, I'm working on another book of poems.

我写了不少新诗，其中一首刚被《纽约客》接受了。

I've got an I've got lots of new poems, and, one of those poems was just accepted at The New Yorker.

他们告诉我，大概九到十个月后就会刊登出来，我听到这个消息特别激动。

So I'm thrilled to say that, they told me, oh, in nine or ten months, it it will appear.

我现在就在专心做这件事，而且真的特别开心。

So I'm, that's what I'm working on now and, and very happily too.

哦，这太棒了。

Oh, that's wonderful.

恭喜你！

Congratulations.

《纽约客》是这么了不起的刊物，对很多人来说都是梦想中的平台。

The New Yorker is such a great publication and such a a dream publication for for so for so many of us.

我特别期待看到这篇作品。

I look forward to seeing it.

记得发一份给我，我好分享给朋友们。

Make sure to send it to me so I can share it with alright.

这里我想谈谈好奇心和持久力的意义。

Here's here's here's something about curiosity and lasting and longevity.

我上一次在《纽约客》发表诗作，还是四十二年前的事了。

I only had one other poem in The New Yorker, and it was forty two years ago.

所以，坚持真的会有回报。

So persistence pays off.

确实如此。

It does.

我不清楚你怎么样，但我对拒稿没那么在意。

I don't know about you, but I don't get incredibly rundown about rejections.

我觉得这背后是一种轻松的心态——我就想，哦，这次没成。

And I think that's the playfulness at at work there that I'm just like, oh, that didn't work.

那就换别的试试。

We'll try something else.

换别的试试。

Try something else.

我真的不会因为这些事太沮丧。

Like, I I don't I don't get too upset about them.

这种态度很好，霍莉。

That's a good that's a good attitude, Hollay.

我回头再回来，咱们专门做一期节目，聊聊大家对拒稿的反应。

I I I'll come back, and we'll have a whole podcast about people's reactions to rejection sometime.

是的。

Yeah.

那一定会非常棒。

That would be that would be amazing.

我可不敢说我一直都是这样应对的。

I don't pretend I was I always had that response.

但现在到了中年，我不但进入了我的‘义警’阶段，而且比起以前，我确实变得洒脱多了。

But but right now in in the middle age, not only am I entering my vigilante era, but I'm definitely I have a I have a laissez faire attitude a lot a lot more than I used to.

真的很感谢你今天和我聊《寡妇的蜡笔盒》这本书。

Well, I really I really appreciate you talking to me today about The Widow's Crayon Box.

各位听众，这本精彩诗集可以在任何购书或借书的地方找到。

Again, listeners, you can get this marvelous collection of poems from wherever books are bought or borrowed.

莫莉，再次感谢你来参加节目。

Molly, thank you again for joining me.

谢谢你，霍莉。

Thank you, Hollay.

感谢您收听本集《新书网络》。

Thank you for listening to this episode of The New Books Network.

我们是一个致力于公众教育的学术播客网络。

We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education.

如果您喜欢这期节目，欢迎分享给朋友，并在您常用的播客平台给我们评分。

If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform.

您可以在我们的网站 newbooksnetwork.com 浏览所有往期节目。

You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com.

您可以在 Instagram 和 Blue Sky 上关注我们，账号是 newbooksnetwork，也可以订阅我们的每周 Substack 通讯，直达您的邮箱，获取节目推荐。

Connect with us on Instagram and Blue Sky with the handle newbooksnetwork and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.