玛丽莲·查尔斯，《创伤的回响：精神分析中的意义与身份》（美国心理学会，2025年）

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我想跟大家介绍另一档我觉得你们会喜欢的播客。

I wanna tell you all about another podcast I think you'll enjoy.

《大学事务》，来自《高等教育纪事报》。

College Matters from the Chronicle.

《大学事务》是《高等教育纪事报》每周推出的节目，是了解高校新闻与分析的绝佳资源。

College Matters is a weekly show from the Chronicle of Higher Education, and it's a great resource for news and analysis about colleges and universities.

你将听到《纪事报》记者们富有洞察力的讨论，他们提供关于特朗普政府最新动向的全新视角，以及对教职员工和学生如何适应技术变革的深刻见解。

You'll hear sharp discussions with chronicle journalists, offering fresh perspectives on the latest salvos from the Trump administration and keen insights about how faculty and students are adapting to technological changes.

《大学事务》还包含对新闻人物的深刻访谈，最近曾采访过普林斯顿大学校长克里斯·艾斯格鲁伯，以及因策划“名校丑闻”招生欺诈案而广为人知的里克·辛格。

College matters also features incisive interviews with newsmakers, including recent conversations with Chris Eisgruber, Princeton University's president, and Rick Singer, who is best known as the mastermind of the varsity blues admissions scandal.

无论你在哪个平台收听播客，都去听听《大学事务》吧。

Check out college matters wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎来到新书网络。

Welcome to the New Books Network.

大家好，欢迎收听本期《新书：精神分析》。

Hello, and welcome to this episode of New Books in Psychoanalysis.

我是今天节目的主持人本·格林伯格博士，精神分析心理学家，同时也是新墨西哥州圣达菲动态实践中心的创始主任。

I'm your host for today's program, doctor Ben Greenberg, psychoanalytic psychologist and founding director of the Center for Dynamic Practice in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

我非常感激能有机会向大家介绍我们今天的嘉宾查尔斯博士，她非常慷慨地来到我们这里，讨论她于2025年出版的新作《创伤的回响：精神分析中的意义与身份》，该书由美国心理学会出版。

I am deeply grateful for this opportunity to introduce to you our guest for today's program, doctor Marilyn Charles, who was quite graciously here with us to discuss her recently published volume in 2025, Echoes of Trauma, meaning and identity in psychoanalysis, published by the American Psychological Association.

关于作者查尔斯博士，她拥有哲学博士学位和美国心理学会认证资格，是马萨诸塞州斯托克布里奇奥斯汀·里格斯中心的心理学家和精神分析师，同时也是文化与社会精神分析协会的联合主席、英国心理分析委员会的学者，以及美国心理学会第39分会的理事代表。

And just a few words about the author, Marilyn Charles, PhD, ABPP, is a psychologist and psychoanalyst at the Austin Riggs Center in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, co chair of the Association for the Psychoanalysis of Culture and Society, scholar of the British Psychoanalytic Council, and council representative for division thirty nine of the American Psychological Association.

她的任职机构包括芝加哥精神分析中心、蒙特雷大学、哈佛医学院和心理社会研究协会。

Her affiliations include the Chicago Center for Psychoanalysis, La Universidad de Monterrey, Harvard Medical School, and the Association for Psychosocial Studies.

查尔斯是一位母亲和祖母，也是一位艺术家和诗人，她将在未来由使命点出版社出版一本诗集，书名为《真实的孤儿：关于爱与失去的反思》，这些诗作源于她多年躺在治疗椅上的经历。

Marilyn is a mother and grandmother, an artist and a poet with a volume of her poetry from her years on the couch forthcoming titled Orphans of the Real, Reflections on Love and Loss with Mission Point Press.

她对自我多维度的深刻理解，塑造了她的临床实践、写作以及对下一代精神分析学者、临床医生和研究者的指导。

Her grounding in these diverse aspects of self inform her practice, writing, and mentoring of future generations of psychoanalytic scholars, clinicians, and researchers.

她的研究兴趣包括创造力、元认知、创伤的代际传递，以及贬低对女性及其他边缘群体的影响。

Her research interests include creativity, metacognition, the intergenerational transmission of trauma, and the impact of devaluation on women and other marginalized groups.

她曾与许多团体合作，包括——请原谅我很可能读错了——南威尔士的格温维拉，这促成了与吉尔·贝伦森合著的《游戏在幼儿教育中的重要性》的出版。她还在国内外多次发表演讲，发表了超过150篇论文和书籍章节，并出版了六本书，包括《模式：经验的基石》《处理创伤》《来自彼岸的启示与拉康、精神分析与文学》《我们所生活的故事》，以及最近出版的《创伤的回响：精神分析中的意义与身份》。

She has consulted with many groups, including, I apologize for very likely pronouncing this wrong, Gwynawira in South Wales, which resulted in the publication of The Importance of Play in Early Childhood Education with Jill Bellenson and has presented her work nationally and internationally, publishing more than a 150 articles and book chapters and six books, including patterns, building blocks of experience, Working with Trauma, Lessons from Beyond and Lacan, Psychoanalysis and Literature, The Stories We Live, and most recently, Echoes of Trauma, Meaning and Identity in Psychoanalysis.

她还主编了五部文集，包括《当代精神分析导论》《创伤的碎片与苦难的社会建构》（与迈克尔·劳林合编），以及《女性与疯狂的社会建构》（与玛丽·布朗合编）。

She has also published five edited volumes, including introduction to contemporary psychoanalysis, fragments of trauma and the social production of suffering with Michael Laughlin, and woman and the psychosocial construction of madness with Marie Brown.

为了开启本期节目，在这个专注于探讨人类无意识著作的播客中——这本身或许天然蕴含着某种悖论——我想向您提出我们传统的开场问题。

And to start our episode, in this podcast dedicated to written works about the human unconscious, perhaps an intrinsic paradox by nature, I pose to you our traditional opening question.

既然我们的动机是否能被完全认知始终存疑，那么是什么促使您写下这本书呢？

As far as our motivation is anything we can ever fully know, what motivated you to write this book?

我写这本书是为了倡导一种发展性的精神分析视角。

I wrote this book to advocate for a developmental view of psychoanalysis.

我认为当前的时代趋势倾向于将意义和实践都具体化、固定化。

I think current times pull toward sort of a concretization of both meaning and practice.

在如今人们可以接触到海量精神分析信息的情况下，很容易陷入某些会束缚焦虑、却无法让我们真正与他人建立联结的僵化理论框架。

And with the plethora of information available to people interested in psychoanalysis, I think it's really easy to kind of get stuck in formulations that sort of bind our anxiety, but don't leave us free to engage with another human being.

随着时间推移，我越来越确信，我们在精神分析中所做的，是创造一个让个体能够发展其反思能力的空间。

And over time, I've become increasingly convinced that what we do in psychoanalysis is create a space where someone can develop their reflective capacities.

因此，如果我们希望邀请他人踏上这段旅程，我们必须愿意自己也踏上它。

And so, if we're going to invite someone on that journey, we have to be willing to take it ourselves.

所以我们必须敞开心扉，以一个真实的人的身份与另一个人同在，愿意随这段旅程走向任何地方——包括不知道自己在做什么，包括极度焦虑，包括恐惧，包括愤怒。

So, we have to be open to being a person in the room with another person and being willing to take the ride wherever it takes us, including not knowing what we're doing, including being very anxious, including being frightened, including being angry.

无论发生什么，我们都必须愿意随行。

Whatever it is, we have to be willing to take the ride.

我认为，促使我想写这本书的另一件事，是意识到复杂创伤如今似乎构成了每个人困扰的核心。

And I think the other thing that led me to want to write this book is an appreciation of the fact that complex trauma seems to be at the core of everyone's troubles these days.

在当今世界，这并不令人意外。

Not surprising in today's world.

但正因为如此，我们必须能够理解创伤的代际传递，明白我们如何以各自独特的方式继承过去的创伤，从而识别我们所乘的浪潮，理解我们如何既被卷入其中，又与之互动，最终在故事中找到自己的位置。

But because of that, we have to be able to understand the intergenerational transmission of trauma and how it happens that we wind up sort of inheriting trauma from the past in our own particular kinds of ways so that we can sort of recognize the waves we're riding along and how we're both implicated in them and moving in relation to them in order to be able to locate ourselves in the story.

当然，有许多精神分析学家已经邀请我们思考这一事实。

And certainly, are a lot of psychoanalysts who have invited us to think about the fact of this.

比如亚伯拉罕、托拉克和莫里斯·阿普里这些人。

You know, people like Abraham and Torak and Morris Apri.

但我们也有一些这样的人，比如皮埃尔·奥利尼耶和拉普兰什，他们帮助我们理解并体验这种传递过程是如何发生的。

But then we also have these other people like Pierre Olinier and La Planche who help us to understand and experience near way how this transmission process happens.

因此，我发现自己处于一个交汇点：我尽可能深入地钻研了各种理论家的思想，并试图带回一些我认为对开展这项工作至关重要的理念，而这些理念往往被包裹在人们可能一生都难以阅读、更不用说掌握的语言和文献中。

So I find myself at the intersection of having dived as steeply as I can into all sorts of theoreticians and trying to come back with ideas that that I think are integral to being able to do the work that are often ensconced in language and literatures that one probably can't hope to read much less master in a lifetime.

然而，这些思想中却蕴藏着珍宝，你知道的，我在早期的著作中就曾尝试向年轻人——那些刚刚踏入这一领域、需要一些依托的人——提供一些概念。

And yet there are these gems, you know, and you see it in my earlier books where I tried to give, you know, concepts to particularly younger people, people who are sort of starting in the work and sort of need something to hold on to.

我们究竟可以抓住什么真正对我们有用、能与我们共同成长、与我们并肩前行的东西呢？

Like, what can we hold on to that's actually useful to us that can grow with us, that we can grow alongside?

因此，我认为在这本书中，我正在做类似的事情，即在之前工作的基础上，增添一些目前正影响着我工作的其他理念。

And and so I think in this book, I'm doing some of the same thing, in terms of, I imagine adding to the work I had already done, some of these other ideas that are currently informing my work.

其中一些来自更认知层面的思考，比如关于元认知的理念。

Some of which come from the more cognitive dimension in terms of ideas about metacognition.

还有一些则源自非常深刻的弗洛伊德式理论，比如奥莱涅的研究或克里斯蒂娃的思想。

And some which come from very deep psychoanalytic ideas like Olenye's work or Kristeva.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

还有，艾米，对于听众来说，刚才这段话几乎像是一个微缩版，展现了这本书在融合各方面内容上的巨大成功。

And, Emmy, what just for listeners, that was a I think a a really small microcosm almost of of of how much this book, I think, really successfully synthesizes.

你从《超越的网格》开始。

And you start off with Beyond's Grid.

是的。

Yeah.

我非常欣赏你让这个概念变得清晰易懂，尤其是将其作为工具，帮助我们理解并应对人类存在的现象。

And and I I so appreciated that the the way you made it intelligible, especially with regards to as as a tool to be able to, like, make sense of this and and and approach, I guess, the human phenomena of being.

我之所以从网格开始，是因为我花了一年时间都无法动笔，因为有两个线索，而我搞不清楚哪个该先来，因为它们其实没有先后之分。

I started off with the grid because I spent a year unable to begin the book because because there were two threads, and I couldn't figure out which came first because neither one comes first.

它们是同时发生的。

They're happening simultaneously.

我终于意识到，Beyond的网格提供了一种定位这两条路径的方式：一条更侧重人际和关系层面，另一条则更偏向认知层面，涉及符号化的发展。

And it finally occurred to me that beyond's grid was a way of locating these two pathways, one of which is more interpersonal and relational, and one which is more cognitive in terms of the development of symbolization.

因此，这个网格给了我一个起点，而我之前无论如何都找不到其他方式来开启。

And so the grid gave me a way of beginning that I hadn't been able to come to any other way.

说实话，我从未见过有人这样使用它。

And I mean, to be honest, I I've never really seen it used that way.

我记得曾在旧金山精神分析中心上过一门课，授课的心理分析师曾师从Beyond，他说：‘从来没人用这个。’

I think I took a course to the San Francisco Center for Psychoanalysis with a psychoanalyst who had studied with beyond and said, no one ever uses this.

它只是我们因为他在所有书的开头都放了这个，才勉强保留下来的东西。

It's it's just something that we only include because he put it at the front of all of his books.

但看到它活了起来，我觉得就是这样。

So to see it become alive, and I felt like right.

它感觉像是一个关键的枢纽，连接了你在本书中所走的隐喻性路径，这也是一个核心主题，引导我们进入温尼科特以及玛丽安·米尔纳关于游戏的著作等方向。

It it feels like a really crucial and, like, sort of creating a crux between the the the metaphorical paths you took in this book, which is a major theme leading into, like, Winnicottian and, you know, Marian Milner's book about play, things like that.

然后是元认知，这也是本书中被深入探索的重要部分；我想说，第三个主要组成部分是，这本书包含了比任何我读过的书都更多的个人经历。

And then metacognition and which was a a really central, powerfully explored component of this too along I'd say the the third major component is that this book included so much more of your personal experience than any I've ever read.

是的

Yeah.

那就是我们工作的出发点。

That's that's where we work from.

这次是什么启发了你，让你在这本书中融入了如此多的个人内容？

What inspired that this time around that this there's so much of you in this book?

因为我感觉这项工作本质上是非常个人化的，我们必须能够借助自己的经验，才能真正尊重地与他人站在他们的位置上相遇。

Because I feel like this work is profoundly personal, and we have to be able to draw on our own experience in order to really respectfully meet another human being where they are.

我试图倡导的是，借助个人经验，而不是直接提及它。

And what I'm trying to take a stand for is drawing on the personal rather than explicitly referring to it.

因为这项工作中的一个问题是，我们没有自由表达的空间。

Because part of the problem in this work is that we're not free to talk.

我们只能尽可能根据对方的需求来发言。

We can only speak in relation to the other person's need as best we can figure that out.

因此，我们需要在说什么和不说什么之间确立某种伦理立场。

And so then we need some sort of ethical position in relation to what we say and what we don't say.

对我来说，关键是对方需要我提供什么，这帮助我意识到我想谈论什么，因为我会被对方的言辞所吸引，从而以一种与之相关的方式前进。

And for me, it's about what does the other person need from me, which then helps me notice what I wanna talk about because I am drawn forward as a person in relation to what they're saying.

但他们并不需要听我讲自己的事。

But they don't need to hear about me.

在你们唤起我自身经验的过程中，有一种微妙的交汇点，它让我能够深刻地共情你们正在经历的事。

And there's something about the meeting point of you you are evoking my own experiences in in a way that allows me to be profoundly empathic to what you're doing.

他们需要感受到这种共鸣，而无需承受我个人经历的累赘。

They need that to register without having to have the debris of my personal experience.

有时候，谈论自己的经历是有帮助的。

Sometimes somebody it's useful to speak about one's own experience.

在这项工作中，没有绝对的‘从不’或‘总是’。

There's no nevers or always in this work.

有时候这样做是有用的，但大多数时候，对方并不需要了解具体的细节。

Sometimes it's useful, but most often somebody doesn't need to hear the particulars.

他们需要知道，我们能够与他们一同前往那个地方。

They need to know that we can go there with them.

是的

Mhmm.

是的

Mhmm.

于是，将这本书融入我们每个人所使用的个人印记中，我们都在运用自己的历史来完成我们需要了解的工作。

And and so then embedding the book in the personal marks that we we're all using our histories in order to do the work that we need to know about it.

我们需要与真实的自己建立友好关系，并对此保持谦逊，这样才能继续前进。

We need to become friendly with who we are and humble in the face of it so that we can move forward.

随着我年龄增长，我逐渐明白，年轻人需要我在那些言语被压抑或禁止的地方发声，以此为他们打开大门。

And one of the things that I've learned as I'm getting older is that younger people need me to speak, in the places where speech is inhibited or prohibited, in in order to open the door for them.

因此，在某种意义上，这是一扇开启的门。

And so in some ways, this is a a door opening.

在什么框架下，是的。

In what frame yeah.

这扇门，因为你从事临床工作、教学工作和自我探索。

The door and and because you clinical work, teaching work, self inquiry.

这扇门意味着勇敢坚持自己的信念，从你所在的位置发声，因为人们可能不同意你，但他们未必正确。

The door is to having the courage of your convictions and speaking from the place that you are because people may not agree with you, but they're not necessarily right.

举个例子，我最近在写一篇论文，有一位拉康学派的学者从非常教条的立场对它进行了评论，坚信我对拉康的理解不够深入。

You know, for example, I was doing a paper recently and there there was a Lacanian commenting on it, from a very dogmatic position and and certain that I didn't know Lacan well.

他们觉得我只是漏掉了什么。

Well, that I was just missing something.

于是他们向我解释，我所谈论的拉康概念——我想是凝视——在某个特定地方，拉康讨论的是电影。

And so they were explaining to me how Lacan I was talking about, I think it was the gaze in a particular way, in a particular place where Lacan talks about film.

这个人告诉我，你理解错了。

And this person told me, you know, you're misunderstanding.

他根本不是在谈电影。

He's not talking about film.

他是在用另一种方式谈论凝视。

He's talking about the gaze in a different way.

我却说：不，请回到原文，因为他真正讨论的确实是电影。

And he's like, no, go back to the page, please, because he's really talking about film.

你知道，还有一本书花了我很长时间，就是《来自黛安娜和拉康的教训》，因为谈论我对拉康的解读很困难，毕竟有这么多专家，而我永远不可能成为专家。

And you know so there's something about and also the other book that took me a long time was the one lessons from Diana and Lacan because speaking about my reading of Lacan was difficult because there's all these experts and I will never be an expert.

但我对拉康有一种亲近感。

But but I have an affinity.

帮助我的人是安娜·费，她在其著作《来自瓦坎达的洞见》的序言中写道：‘这是我的解读。’

And the person who helped me was she's Anna Fe, who in her introduction to her book on Insights from Wakanda said, this is my reading.

这让我明白了：好吧，这是我的解读。

So it helped me, okay, this is my reading.

你可以做任何你想做的事，但没有人能拥有拉康，甚至拉康本人也不拥有拉康。

And you can do whatever you want, but nobody owns Even Milare does not own Lacan.

我有自己的理由。

And I got my own reasons.

你刚才提到那些曾跟他学习过的人。

You were talking about and people who studied with him.

我过去常和吉姆·格罗茨坦交谈，因为我有一种超越的感觉。

I used to talk with Jim Grotzstein because I have a sense of beyond.

你知道，他是由超越者分析的。

And you know, he was analyzed by beyond.

他认识他。

He knew him.

但在某些时候，他会来找我，问我怎么理解，因为我的感受方式与超越者非常契合，吉姆能察觉到这一点。

But he would come to me at certain points and ask what my reading is because my sensibilities are very in line with beyond in a way that Jim could recognize.

而且，这也没问题。

And, you know, fair enough.

这对我很有帮助，因为这就像，你知道，我感觉自己在传达超越者的思想，这听起来有点疯狂，但我的确如此。

And it was helpful to me because it was sort of like, you know, I had the idea I was channeling beyond, which is obviously kinda crazy, but I was.

你知道，我们都住在圣达菲。

You know, we both lived in Santa Fe.

对吧？

Right?

正如我们在上一本关于创伤的书中提到的，那里有不少关于那里的段落。

As we mentioned in in the previous trauma book, there were a number of passages about that.

我觉得你确实唤起了一种强大的父性功能。

I I think there's something there where you do evoke this powerful paternal function.

你通过Beyond将它整合并内化了。

You've integrated, internalized through beyond.

我想标记一下你提到的拉康理论，这很有趣。

And I wanna bookmark the stuff you said about Lacan because that's interesting.

你在这本书中融入拉康理论的方式让我觉得非常有说服力，我在拉康派圈子中也有过类似的经历。

And the way you include it in this book, I find quite compelling, and I've had similar experiences in Lacanian circles too.

但我一直有个幻想，觉得你把米尼翁式的父性感直接注入到人本身的方式，几乎就像Beyond将梅兰妮·克莱因的理论融入并赋予她全新的意义那样，我确实会说，是的，那

But I was I had this fantasy version of, like, the way you have interjected a Mignonian paternal sense direct to the human being himself is almost like the way beyond interjected Melanie Klein and and did something so new with her that that I would I would've, you know, yeah, that

但她从中成长了。

But she grew from it.

她采纳了他在偏执-分裂位态与抑郁位态之间提出的递归箭头。

She she adopted his recursive arrows in relation to the paranoid schizoid and depressive positions.

对她而言，我其实更多是在想她的某些追随者，他们比她本人要教条得多。

Which for her, I wasn't I was thinking more about some of her followers when we're far more dogmatic than than she was.

我觉得温尼科特和巴恩斯给了我们一些传统，这些传统不仅仅是人类、理论家或临床工作者本身——尽管他们可能并不完美，也经历了各自的历程——但不知为何，他们的传统从一开始就显得更具弹性或更开放。

And I feel Winnicott and beyond give us traditions, really, not just humans or theorists or clinicians themselves, imperfect as they may be as well and through their own journey, But that for whatever reason, their traditions seem to be more flexible or porous at the outset.

而拉康，我认为，你参加过拉康阅读小组，跟随拉康学派的米勒等人学习过，你却如此专注于想象界，这让我觉得非常激进。

Whereas Lacan, I think it I I found it to be radical having you've been in Lacanian reading groups and studied with the Lacanian, the millerian school, blah blah blah, for you to focus so much on the imaginary.

对我来说，我的拉康是当他转向詹姆斯·乔伊斯和圣托姆的时候。

For me, my lacan is when he gets to the James Joyce and the Santom.

那时他的思想才真正融合在一起。

That's where his ideas come together.

我觉得他意识到这些思想汇聚了，于是他在那个阶段变得异常深刻又幽默。

And my sense is he realized they came together and he starts being incredibly poignant and funny at that point in time.

在那些后期的研讨班里，你能看到他的转变。

In those later seminars, you see him in the beginning.

在他的早期研讨班中，他谈论的是房间里有多少人，自己是否受欢迎，是否被接纳，诸如此类的事。

In his earlier seminars, he's talking about how many people are in the room and whether he's welcome and whether he's not whatever whatever.

而在他的后期研讨班中，他说房间里没人可谈，因为他已走向了如此宏大的格局，以至于再没有人能与他对话了。

In his later seminars, he's talking about there being no one to talk to in the room because he's so made way for the grandiose that there's no one left to speak to.

他的深刻孤独感，却如此动人。

And his profound loneliness, which is just so endearing.

他在后期研讨班中做的另一件事是，哀叹自己无法抵达女性所处的境地，作为女性阅读这些内容，也令人感到十分愉悦和有趣。

The other thing he does is in his later seminars is he laments his inability to get to the place where women live from, which is also really delightful and entertaining as a woman to read.

所以，是的，我有这些非常棒的学习小组。

So, yeah, I have these study groups that are really wonderful.

加入的唯一条件是，你必须把自恋留在门外，因为自恋和教条会抑制对想法的探索，并阻碍每个人找到对自己有用的部分。

The the only criterion for joining is you have to leave your narcissism at the door because it really inhibit narcissism and dogma because it inhibits playing with the ideas and finding what's useful for each person.

如果每个人都能对某些内容产生共鸣并反馈出来，那么我们所有人都能学习和成长。

And if each person can sort of resonate to something and offer it back, then we all learn and grow.

但如果存在唯一正确的答案，那就没有人能学到东西。

But if there's a right answer, nobody learns.

这种僵化，这种自恋。

That rigidification, that narcissism.

没错。

Right.

是的

Yeah.

不

No.

而且我特别喜欢你如何从《超越网格》、发展视角、神经科学出发，逐步过渡到躯体化、饮食障碍、边缘型与自恋型人格的区分，最终将自恋视为我作为一名教育者和督导亲身所见的现象。

And and I and I loved how you worked your way towards there from Beyond Grid, the developmental perspective, the neuroscience, and then from somaticization to eating disorders to borderline versus narcissism, finally to narcissism as as something that I've really personally seen even as a as a pedagogue and a supervisor.

这种行为可能造成的伤害。

It the damage this can do.

为了困在那种状态中而造成的伤害。

Well, the damage that has been done in order to be stuck in that place.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

这就像一种对崩溃的现实化恐惧，伴随着偏执和攻击。

It's it's like an enacted fear of breakdown where the the paranoia and the attacks of it.

对吧？

Right?

但你能再多谈谈你对经验的理论理解吗？

But can you say more about your conceptualization of experience?

关于自恋？

Of narcissism?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很感谢这一点。

I I really appreciate that.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，你知道，我开始对自恋产生兴趣，并回溯到其他人的理论，当时大部分理论都假设自恋比边缘性人格发展得更成熟，这在我看来简直荒谬。

For me, you know, I started getting interested in narcissism and going back to other people's formulations that there were, you know, there was a period when the bulk of the formulations were assuming that narcissism was more highly developed than the borderline position, which to me is just crazy.

因为如果你想想，边缘性人格是与客体相关的但不稳定，而自恋性人格则与客体无关。

Because if you think about the borderline position being object related but unstable, And the narcissistic position being not object related.

那么，哪个是更早出现的呢？

Like, which comes first?

所以，你知道，当时有一种忽视了深层缺陷的倾向，这些缺陷在自恋者的夸大和脆弱中被侵犯了，也就是我们实际看到的那些真正受自恋困扰的人，而不是那种被随意贴上的标签。

So, you know, there were there was something about a failure to appreciate the profound deficits that were being offended against in, you know, the grandiosity and the fragility and, you know, all these things that we see in people who actually struggle with narcissism as opposed to, you know, sort of the epithet.

对吧？

Right?

但那些真正深陷这种状态的人，他们的困难是极其深刻的。

But people who are really struggling from this kind of a place, the difficulties are profound.

另一件帮助我确信自己所观察到的现象的事情，是一位同事在读研究生时做的研究项目，大卫·尼尔在乔治·福克斯大学时做的。

The other thing that was useful to me in in sort of helping me believe in what I thought I was seeing was a research project that a colleague did when he was a graduate student, David Neil, when he was at George Fox.

根据RIG的追踪数据，那些被诊断为边缘性人格的人。

From the RIG's follow along data, looking at, borderline people had been diagnosed borderline.

人们使用保罗·莱西克的元认知量表被诊断为自恋型。

People had been diagnosed narcissistic using Paul Leysicker's Metacognitive Scale.

我们可以看到，边缘型人格的人能够发展他们的反思能力。

And what we could see is that people who are borderline could develop their reflective capacities.

他们能够利用自我体验来完善对自身想法和感受的理解。

They could make use of self experience to refine their ideas about their thoughts and feelings.

如果他们真正努力将这些能力应用到他人的想法和感受上，并真正发展出人际关系能力的话。

And if they really worked at it to apply those to other people's thoughts and feelings and really develop relationally.

而那些我们称为自恋型的人，却很难真正利用自我体验。

Whereas people we would term narcissistic had a hell of a time actually making use of self experience.

他们所做的，正如我在书中提到的，加利塞所讨论的第三人称推测。

And what they would do is, you know, what I talk about in the book in terms of Galise talks about the third person conjecture.

因此，他们会用头脑去推测他人可能处于什么状态。

So they would use their mind to think about where other people might be.

但这并没有根植于自我体验，而自我体验正是我们所谓反思能力或元认知发展的前提。

But it wasn't embedded in self experience, which is the precondition for for what we actually call reflective capacities or metacognitive development.

因此，你会看到这种深刻的缺陷，人们很难克服，因为他们难以真正面对自己的体验并理解自己的情绪。

So you see this profound deficit that people have a hell of a time getting past because of the difficulty of actually sitting with their own experience and making sense of their feelings.

而这正是我在书中所关注的思维与情绪之间区别的关键所在。

And that's where, you know, some of the thoughts versus feelings that I focus on in in the book comes forward.

因为一个人更倾向于思维领域还是情绪领域，这一点至关重要。

Because it matters a great deal whether somebody's more situated in the realm of thinking or in the realm of feeling.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而自恋更偏向于思维的强迫性领域，边缘型则更偏向于曾经所谓的

And narcissism more the obsessive realm of thinking and borderline the more what was once

情绪过度饱和。

Oversaturation with feeling.

饱和。

Saturation.

是的

Yeah.

对，没错

And yeah.

如果你的情绪过于饱和，那么挑战就在于如何适当降温。

And if you're oversaturated with feeling, then then the challenge becomes to sort of tone it down.

我们了解如何通过提供一种容器，让人能够运用自己的思考能力。

And we know something about providing containment through which someone can make use of their thinking.

拥有这样的隐喻或概念化，有助于他们在情绪极端时学会调节自己的感受。

And it helps someone to have that kind of, a metaphor, a conceptualization so that they can work at toning down their own feelings when they get extreme.

目的是为了能够思考。

So in the service of being able to think.

从精神分析的角度来看，这条路径对我们来说非常自然。

That's a very easy pathway for us from a psychoanalytic perspective.

但对于那些深陷情绪、抗拒思考、防御感受的人，要引导他们关注自己的感受却困难得多，因为感受是他们最不发达的功能。

It's much more difficult to help someone who's very lodged in feelings and defend thinking and defended against feelings to invite them into actually paying attention to feelings given that it's their least developed function.

所以那是他们感到最脆弱的地方。

So it's the place where they feel most vulnerable.

而脆弱正是被防御的东西。

And vulnerability is the thing that gets defended against.

所以，你知道，要从那种状态中走出来需要很多努力，虽然人们可以做到，但这需要巨大的付出。

So, you know, it takes a lot for somebody to move from that place and people can, but it's an incredible amount of work.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你让我非常生动地描述了这种工作，贯穿其中。

And you let me just describe that work quite poignantly throughout interwoven.

我的意思是，你在奥斯汀·里格斯中心工作，那里大概有很多非常棘手的病例，我想是这样。

I mean, you work at the Austin Riggs Center, which probably has, I would imagine, a good proportion of some of the most difficult cases.

那么，你能再多谈谈你个人以及作为教师和督导时，帮助他人完成这种工作的过程吗？

And and and so could you talk a little bit more about both that work as as as you've done within yourself, you've helped others to do as a as a teacher and and a supervisor?

当我们面对自己内心的这些部分时，该如何应对？比如，边缘型人格的人极度渴望亲密，却因羞耻感而不断破坏建立亲密关系的能力？

And how do we deal with these parts of ourselves when, you know, the borderline wants intimacy so badly that they're actively always destroying the capability from a more shame based perspective?

而自恋型人格的人，同样源于羞耻感，却对任何亲密的可能性感到极度脆弱，因此完全回避，不建立任何客体关系。

And the narcissist, in contrast from an also shame based perspective, feel so vulnerable about any possibility of intimacy that they're just fending it off without any any object relation.

人们回避这种脆弱的一种方式，也是我们临床工作者通常帮助他们回避的方式，就是通过诊断语言——这在一定程度上标记了特定的缺陷或成长领域等等，还算说得过去。

Well, one way that people fend it off and that we clinicians generally help them fend it off is through the language of diagnoses, which on the one hand sort of marks, particular deficits or areas for growth, etcetera, etcetera, buying well enough.

但我认为，人们寻求诊断，是为了把问题定位在自己之外或自身之外。

But I think that people look for diagnoses as a way of locating the problem outside of themselves or beyond themselves.

所以当有人向我索要诊断时，我会告诉他们，这并不是我看待问题的方式。

And so then when people ask me for diagnoses, I tell them that that's not really how I think about things.

我看待问题的方式，是更倾向于去理解：这一切是如何发生的。

How I think about things is in terms of more of a formulation of how did this happen.

因此，我会向对方讲述我认为发生过的事情，因为我确实相信，那些深陷困境的人正在经历复杂的创伤，而他们自己却无法察觉，因为似乎什么都没发生。

And so what I'll offer somebody is a story of what I think happened because I do believe that people who are really in trouble are suffering from complex trauma and something happened that they can't appreciate because nothing happened.

因为如果一切本来都好好的，而真的发生了什么事，总会有人在身边帮助他们应对的。

Because if everything was fine and something happened, there would have been people there to help them manage it.

他们本该没事的。

They would be okay.

但真正的问题在于‘什么都没发生’——那些本该在人际互动、成长过程中由父母提供的支持和功能，却始终缺席，这才让人陷入困境。

But it's sort of the the nothing happening, the things that should have been happening that weren't interpersonally, developmentally in terms of parental functions that leave people in trouble.

但这种缺失很难被识别，而他们又因为自己没能‘好起来’而感到羞愧。

But it's it's hard to locate, and then they're ashamed for not being fine.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以必须得有一个故事，你知道的，我们之前谈到过创伤的代际传递，那就是故事背后的故事。在里格斯中心，我们也会努力帮助人们在自己之前的家族历史中找到自己的影子，因为他们的父母之所以无法提供支持，是有原因的。

And so then there has to be a story, you know, and we were talking about intergenerational transmission of trauma before, which is the story beyond the story, which at Riggs, we try to get also So people can kind of find themselves in the history that preceded them because there's reasons why their parents weren't available.

所以你必须愿意追溯到上一代。

So you have to be willing to go back the generation.

所以你并不是在责怪某人，而是在识别那些本该发生却未发生的事情，这样他们才能明白自己需要做什么样的工作，才能获得更多内在力量，把情绪当作信号来利用——这正是情绪应有的作用，并且能够构建一个故事，在这个故事中，即使对自己卡住的地方，也能保持某种尊重。

So you're not sort of blaming somebody, but rather you're recognizing what needed to happen that didn't so that they can have an idea of what kind of work they might need to do in order to have more wherewithal as a person to make use of their feelings as signals, which is what they're supposed to be, and to be able to put together a story where they can have some respect even for where they're stuck.

就像你所强调的，建构与解释之间的区别。

Like, constructions versus interpretations, which you highlighted.

是的。

Yeah.

这似乎是一种应对这种命名‘不存在之物’这一巨大难题的方式——那些影响主体的、比任何事物都更深刻的东西。

Which is a felt like one of the ways you contend with the the magnitude of this problem of of naming the thing that isn't there, what is impacting the subject, right, more profound than anything.

并且能够做到这一点：命名那个不存在的东西，以及那个未曾发生的东西，作为‘为何事情未发生’的原因。

And and to be able to do this, name the thing that isn't there and the thing that wasn't there as the cause of why the thing wasn't there.

在这一切中，我认为对我而言，除了勒普兰的神秘能指之外，另一个重要的概念是关于存在之初的时刻——孩子在寻找世界、寻找安全、寻找温暖与保障的时刻。

In all of that, I think one of the things that's been important for me even beyond Le Planche's enigmatic signifiers, are incredibly useful, is idea about the sort of initial moments of being where the the child is finding the world, finding safety, finding warm security, finding.

她说，这些时刻被父母——通常是母亲——对孩子的回应所覆盖。

And that that those moments, she says, are overlain by the parents, usually the mother's reception to the child.

当存在不欢迎、矛盾，甚至分娩过程艰难时，这种氛围会污染孩子对被世界接纳的感受，并产生深远影响，这对于那些无法理解自己羞耻感和负面自我认同的人尤其有帮助，因为他们无法在已形成的故事中找到这些感受的根源。

And when there is an unwelcome, an ambivalence, or even a difficult delivery process, the it contaminates the sense of being welcomed into the world, and it has an impact, which is really helpful to people who can't understand their own shame, their own negative self identity, because they can't find it in in the story as it has evolved.

而且它必须存在于某个地方，通常就在那里。

And it's gotta be somewhere, and it's usually there.

当我们寻找它时，他们总是能意识到父母的矛盾心理、敌意，或者 whatever 它是什么。

And and when we look for that, they're always aware of their parents' ambivalence or hostility or, you know, whatever it is.

但故事却被写成仿佛他们自己就是问题，而不是他们被抛入了一个问题之中。

But the story gets written as though they were the problem as opposed to that they were presented with a problem.

仿佛他们就是问题。

As though they're the problem.

没错。

Right.

羞耻感带来的转变就在于，它让我变成了问题本身，而不是‘这是发生在我身上的事’。

That that's the shift that shame does is it it makes me the thing rather than this is the thing that happened to me.

这感觉像是这本书的一个主要主题。

That feels like a major theme of this book.

而且

And

拒绝会引发羞耻。

rejection invite shame.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以当这是第一次经历时，它会染上一切。

So it's when that's the first experience, it colors everything.

一切。

Everything.

一切。

Everything.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

而且，即使这种感觉是隐晦的，你在本书中以及你整个作品中有力地描述了羞耻是一种内化的东西。

And and even if it's felt, like, there's something there about the way that you describe in this book and throughout your work powerfully that shame is this absorbed thing.

它是一种没有符号可以命名的存在，因此仿佛它开始告诉主体：这就是拥有这种可怕感觉的意义。

It's it's this presence without a symbol to name it, and and therefore, it it's as if it starts to tell the subject, you know, this is what this means to have this terrible feeling.

所以是的。

And so yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你提供了许多不同的方法，去触及那个尚未被语言触及的隐秘角落。

To to you you offer many different approaches towards getting at that that just hidden place where the words haven't.

这些早期的信息对我来说变得非常有趣。

It's gotten to be very interesting to me, this these early messages.

因为我一直在思考的一件事是，我对死亡驱力产生了兴趣。

Because one of the things that I've been thinking of, I've gotten interested in the death drive.

考虑到当下的情况，你不得不对这些话题感兴趣。

You sort of have to be interested in these days given what's going on.

但我们如何在时间中朝向死亡前进呢？既然我们活在时间里，就一直在朝向死亡移动。

But but how we, you know, move toward death in relation to death if we are in time, we are moving toward death.

但我认为，精神分析中关于死亡驱力的某种表述，其实是经验的底层部分——对某些人来说，这是母亲希望他们从未出生、或不在此处的意愿，而我们却始终伴随着这种意愿前行。

But but there's this I think that part of what gets formulated in psychoanalysis in terms of the death drive is is sort of this underbelly of experience that for some people is the mother's wish that they not have been born or that they not be there, that that we wind up riding along.

对于我们所接触的许多在世间不被欢迎的人而言，他们始终与母性的力量相伴而行。

And for many of the people we work with who had an unwelcome into the world, they're always riding alongside the maternal.

在极端情况下，你会遇到安德烈·格林笔下的‘死去的母亲’，你试图让她活下去，这是其中一种表现形式。

At the extreme, you have, Andre Greene's dead mother, you know, who you're trying to keep alive, which is one variation of it.

但我认为这比那还要更广泛。

But I think it's bigger than that.

我认为，我们每个人内心总有一部分始终与母性相关联。

I think it's this sort of that we there's always a part of us that moves in relation to the maternal.

这种力量如此强大，或许正是我们试图将女性禁锢在固定位置的原因之一，因为它太具有塑造性了。

And it's so powerful that that's probably some of our need to keep women in their place because it's so formative.

是的。

Yeah.

就像以一种代际延续的方式，我们自身在结构上被塑造为在母亲分娩出婴儿——也就是我们或我们的患者——时便已缺席，仿佛我们在时间中失去了自我。

Like in in a preceding ourselves kind of intergenerational way, like we're structurally, the woman is made to not be there by the time she gives birth to the infant, us, or our patient, that it's like we lose ourselves in time.

就像我听到你说的那样，似乎存在一种规范性的，或者说是异常的、死亡的驱力，即与那种未得到支持的母亲所引发的羞耻感相关，而这位母亲并未获得让她让我们在最初感知世界时感到被欢迎所需的条件。

Like, the way I'm hearing you say it, like, there's a there's a there's a normative or maybe an abnormal or a death drive where, like, being in relation to the shame derived from the unsupported mother who wasn't given what she needs to make us feel welcome in the world in our first senses.

在西方文化中，对我们大多数人而言，分娩过程中都存在着一种根本性的疏离感，因为分娩已逐渐变成一种医疗行为。

Western culture, there's a fundamental alienation that happens in the birth process for most of us because birth has become sort of a medical thing.

我的意思是，如今剖宫产的比例高得惊人。

I mean, increasingly now the number of of c sections is like, you know, it's staggering.

这就是那个词。

That's the word.

如果你想想，过去分娩是一种正常的、人们共同参与的过程，那种在延续脉络中被唤起的自我关系，与现在这种被打断的模式截然不同。

And if you think about how birth was a normal process that people participated in collectively, the relationship to oneself that is invited in that kind of a a lineage is so different than what's invited in in this sort of disrupted.

就像被加载到医院分娩过程中的文化意涵一样，而医院本身本就是一种父权制结构。

Like, the the cultural meetings that get loaded into, what happens in childbirth in a hospital, you know, which is a sort of paternalistic structure anyway.

对吧？

Right?

而且，这确实值得思考一下。

And, you know, worth worth sort of thinking about.

我之前还真没想过这一点。

I hadn't really thought about

为什么不是呢？

Why is it no.

这让我想到我一个案例，她的母亲本人就是医生，而在我接触过的所有人中，她可能是最不被这个世界欢迎的。

It's it makes me think of a case of mine who whose mother hers themself is a physician and probably of of everyone I've ever worked with has felt least welcome into the world.

对于女性来说，她们不得不扭曲自己——作为男性，我不愿越界，但这个体系确实剥夺了某种东西：集体性、支持性，不只是‘足够好的母亲’这一点，而是‘足够好的育儿环境’，那种让母亲与婴儿成为共生整体的环境，我们所有人都是从这样的环境中来，作为人类而存在的。

And what it means for women to contort themselves in in you know, as a man, I I don't wanna overstep my balance here, but there's something about that system that that really does take away something of the agency of of the communal, of the support of of of not just the good the good enough mother is one thing, but but the good enough mothering environment, the good enough environment that helps there to be mother and baby as a symbiotic place we all come from and are here as humans to.

在我最近与一些年长女性的工作中，一个有趣的主题浮现出来，那就是她们将自己的位置与祖先、母系祖先联系起来。

One interesting trope that's been coming forward in my work with some older women, recently has been, the idea of locating themselves in relation to their ancestors, their maternal line of ancestors.

我在思考女性特质，因为是女性。

And, you know, I think about the feminine because of woman.

但一直以来，我觉得在男女二元对立中，男性其实才是受损最严重的，因为他们被剥夺了自己作为有感受力的生命的传承。

But it's always seemed to me that in in the binary split between men and women, that men really get the worst deal because they're disenfranchised from their own legacy of being feeling beings.

是的。

And Yeah.

我的意思是，如果我们把更古老的癔症映射到当代的边缘型人格，把古老的强迫性神经症映射到当代的自恋型人格，那么我认为，与其陷入一种因害怕早已发生并已幸存的脆弱性而不断抗拒的关系重复强迫，不如从一种本质上与客体相关、渴望建立关系的立场出发。

I mean, if we're more, you know, mapping the the more archaic hysteric onto the current borderline and the archaic obsessive neurotic onto the current narcissist really, then I think that again, like to start off from a place that is inherently object related or seeking that relationship versus to be caught in a repetition compulsion of actively fighting it off because of this fear of a vulnerability that already happened, that one has already survived.

那里确实存在某种东西，即使女性，我认为，还有很长的路要走。

There is something there where, like, at least even if females are there's still, I I think, a long way to go.

我的意思是，你书中对女权主义的威胁描述非常深刻，我深深感激这一点。

I mean, the the the the threat of feminism in your book is is really profound, and and I appreciate it deeply.

但至少女性还处在某种试图回归原点的轨迹上，而在这个文化中的男性却像在虚无中盲目挣扎，根本无法命名这种状态——你是否也这么认为？

But at least women are kind of located somewhere along some trajectory of trying to get back to a place whereas men and males in this culture are, like, flailing amidst nowhere and nothing, again, with with an impossibility of naming, or would you say that?

但确实有一些男性群体正在聚集起来，试图像一些女性那样完善自我、定位自我，我认为这非常重要，因为我们需要重新审视并修复这个文化中关于“成为男人”的意义，就像我们需要重新审视“成为女人”的意义一样。

But there are groups of men who, yeah, are coming together to to try to refine themselves and locate themselves in the same way that some women are doing, which I think is really important because I think we need to reconsider and repair our ideas of what it means to be a man in this culture, just like we need to do that in relation to what it means to be a woman.

我之所以这样想，是因为这与我们刚才讨论的这本书的核心观点有关，因为我认为，这同样关乎在当今世界成为精神分析师或伦理治疗师的意义——这必须是一种个人的立场。

And and I'm thinking of that in relation to what we were talking about about the point of the book, because I think it's also what it means to be a psychoanalyst or an ethical therapist in today's world because it has to be a personal stand.

你不能再把伦理建立在一本指南书上了。

You can't locate your ethics in a guidebook anymore.

对。

Right.

你需要定位到你所处的位置以及我们所拥有的身份，无论是男性、女性还是白人。

Like, you have to locate to the place where you stand and the identities that we own, that we bear, be it male or female or white.

我刚提交了一篇关于伦理的论文，探讨的是将伦理与真实性联系起来，因为我认为我们不能再信任来自外部的言说。

I just submitted a paper on ethics, which is about locating ethics in in relation to authenticity because I don't think we can't we can't trust speech that comes from the outside anymore.

我们必须能够与之建立内在的关联。

We have to be able to find ourselves in relation to it.

而且，我们在这件事上做得怎么样？

And yeah, how are we doing with that?

我就想问，作为一个领域，我们甚至在支持这种必要性方面做得如何？

Yeah, I would just say where are we as a field even in supporting that needed?

这正是这本书的核心所在。

Well, that's that's the point of the book.

这正是我的学习小组、我所进行的教学和督导的核心——始终坚守立场。

That's the point of my study groups, the teaching I do, the supervision I do, just staying at regs.

我只是在努力支持那些正在寻找方向的人。

Just trying to support people trying to find their way.

随着时间的推移，我发现，当你越来越公开时，人们会以各种方式对待你。

I found it interesting over time, you know, as you become more public, people do various things with you.

你知道，有时候这让人沮丧，因为我无法以一个普通人的身份说话，因为人们正在用别的方式对待我。

And you know, sometimes it's frustrating because I can't sort of speak as a person because, you know, people are doing something else with me.

哦，不会吧。

Oh, no.

我们试试吧。

Let's try.

好的。

Okay.

但另一方面，我发现有些人主动找到我，他们本身就在努力做重要的事，并认为我可以支持他们，这让我感到非常谦卑和感激。

But on the other hand, I find that people find me who are really trying to do something important in their own right and have the idea that I can support them, which I am very humbled by and grateful for.

因为如果我能有什么愿望的话，这绝对是我的首要心愿。

Because if if if I could have thought to wish for something, that would be at the top of the list.

你知道，生活在一个充满问题的世界里，我觉得这一直如此，而且有太多事情是你无能为力的。

You know, there's something about living in a troubled world, which I think is always true, and having so many things you can't do anything about.

但接着，你知道，你该如何定位自己，去面对那些你能够做到的事情呢？

But then, you know, how do you situate yourself in in relation to what you can do?

而我们在这个领域所能做的，就是忠于自己的原则，无论它们是什么，并努力分享和守护这些原则，这就是精神分析。

And what we can do in this field is try to be true to our own principles, whatever they are, and try to share them and, shelter them, which is psychoanalysis.

它提供了一个包容的空间，让人能够为自己做些真实而真诚的事情。

It's providing a containing space where somebody can do something real and true for themselves.

因此，这可能发生在咨询室里。

And so it might happen in the consulting room.

也可能发生在学习小组中。

It might happen in a study group.

它可能，你知道，发生在一场演讲中。

It might, you know, happen at at a talk.

但无论它在哪里发生，只要发生了，那么，你知道，我们就在这里，我们就在那里。

But wherever it happens, if it happens, then, you know, we're there we are.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

我的思绪正朝两个方向奔涌。

My my mind's going in two directions.

我想问你，作为这个领域，我们自身的情况如何？即使只是回到这本书的第一个引文，我们是否在容纳着我们自身内在的疯狂？正如拉康那句优美的论述：我们的存在若不包含疯狂，就不可能是我们的存在；疯狂是我们自由的界限。我认为这带来了特殊的挑战。

I I I wanna ask you how how we're doing as a field with our own even just going back to the first quote of the of of the book, we're containing with our own inherent madness in in in in the beautiful quote by Lacan that not only can we understood not only can our being not be understood without madness, it would not be our being if it did not bear madness within itself as a limit of our freedom, which I think posts particular challenges.

而且，又像被各种团体告知，这不是精神分析，或者拉康不是这个意思，等等等等。

And again, like, with with being told, you know, by various groups that that that's not psychoanalysis or that's not what Lacan meant and so on and so forth.

但即使在你此刻谈论这些时，我感觉你能够以一种迂回的视角、从侧面观察事物，并可能指向那些可能的事物。

But it it even even as you're talking about it now, I feel like you're able to take this oblique angla of of of looking at things from the side and and maybe referencing what is what is possible.

就在那之前，尼娜·科尔特的那句引文也说：我们这门不可能的职业的本质在于，以一种独特的方式，我们并不知道自己在做什么。

Even the very first quote before that by Nina Coltheart, it is of the essence of our impossible profession that in a very singular way, we do not know what we are doing.

我们工作的核心是一个谜。

At the heart of our work is a mystery.

我对这个谜团感到些许慰藉，因为它或许能转化某种隐喻，甚至可能是元认知，让某些事情变得可能，就像我听到你描述的那样。

And it's I take some solace in that mystery as the thing that transfigures maybe metaphor, possibly metacognition, something becomes more possible, like in in the register, which I heard you describing.

我不确定是否

I don't know if that

所有这些都让我们能稍微放松一下，从而变得轻松自如。

And all those things allow us to play a little bit, which loosens us up.

但如果你仔细想想，这份工作本质上是充满悖论的，因为来找我们的人，对自己了解得比我们多得多。

But if you think about it, this work is profoundly paradoxical because the person coming to us knows much more about themselves than we do.

但我们了解可能性。

But we know something about possibility.

于是，他们依靠着我们的信念——相信某些事情可以改变，相信这一切终将有所收获，相信事物能够以他们根本无法想象的方式发生转变。

And so then they kind of ride on our faith that something can change, something can come of all of this, that things can transform in a way that they can't possibly imagine.

而我们知道，钥匙就在他们自己手中。

And we know that the keys are in them.

我在里格斯医院和这个家伙共事了大约五年。

I worked with this guy for about five years at Riggs.

他为人非常具体、呆板，但他的梦境却异常丰富，一切都在梦中发生。

He he was very sort of concrete dull, but his dreams were ass it all happened in his dreams.

他一直在寻找那把父亲没有给他的秘密钥匙。

And he was looking for the secret key that he hadn't received from his father.

他一直在寻找它。

And and he was looking for it.

而那把钥匙就藏在他所有的梦里。

And it was in all of his dreams.

后来，在一个梦中，他走进了一间小屋，发现钥匙就在那里——而他其实一直拥有它。

And then in a later dream, he walked into a hut and the key was there and he had had it all along.

这是一个‘无即一切’的瞬间，这正是精神分析的真相：我们本身就拥有钥匙。

And and it was this sort of nothing everything moment, which is the truth of psychoanalysis that that we have the keys.

如果有人和我们一起工作，他们就会意识到这一点。

And if if somebody's working with us, they're recognizing that.

而这正是拉康所坚持的，尽管他玩弄了各种概念。

And that's again where Lacan, in spite of, you know, whatever he was playing with, kept pointing to.

你知道，这是一个人与自己的关系。

You know, that it's the person's relationship with themselves.

这才是问题所在，他们必须自己去弄清楚。

It's the problem, and that they're gonna have to figure out.

并且尽量别用你那愚蠢又聪明的解读去干扰他们。

And try not to get in the way with your stupid brilliant interpretation.

如果我们

Always a danger if we

这始终是个危险。

Always a danger.

你知道，我们会感到焦虑。

You know, we get anxious.

我们总想提供些什么。

We wanna offer something.