贝蒂·米兰，《拉康分析：个人记述》（布卢姆斯伯里出版社，2023年）

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是马歇尔·波。

This is Marshall Poe.

我是新书网络的创始人兼主编。

I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network.

如果你正在听这个，那你应该知道，新书网络是全球最大的学术播客网络。

And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world.

我们拥有高达两百万的全球听众。

We reach a worldwide audience of 2,000,000 people.

你可能已经拥有一个播客，或者正在考虑创建一个播客。

You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast.

正如你所知，这会遇到一些挑战。

As you probably know, there are challenges.

基本上分为两类。

Basically, of two kinds.

一是技术问题。

One is technical.

你需要掌握一些知识，才能制作和发布你的播客。

There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed.

第二个问题是，也是最大的问题，你需要吸引听众。

And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience.

在播客领域，建立听众群体是当今最难做到的事情。

Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today.

请记住，我们在NBN推出了一项名为NBN Productions的服务。

Put this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions.

我们的工作是帮助你创建、制作、发布播客，并托管你的播客。

What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast.

最重要的是，我们会将你的播客分发给NBN的听众群体。

Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience.

我们已经多次为许多学术播客提供过这项服务，我们很乐意帮助你。

We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you.

如果您有兴趣与我们讨论我们如何帮助您制作播客，请联系我们。

If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us.

请前往新书网络的首页，您会看到指向NBN制作的链接。

Just go to the front page of the New Books Network, and you will see a link to NBN productions.

点击该链接，填写表格，我们可以进一步交流。

Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk.

欢迎来到新书网络。

Welcome to the New Books Network.

您好，欢迎收听《新书与心理分析》，这是新书网络的一个播客频道。

Hello, and welcome to New Books and Psychoanalysis, a podcast channel of the New Books Network.

我是您的主持人马特·皮亚尼克，今天非常高兴邀请到贝蒂·米兰，她的新书《由莱坎分析》去年秋天由布卢姆斯伯里出版社出版。

My name is Matt Piaknik, your host, and I am delighted today to welcome Betty Millan, whose new book, Analyzed by Lekan, was published last fall by Bloomsbury.

贝蒂·米兰是巴西圣保罗的一位拉康派心理分析师。

Betty Milan is a Lacanian psychoanalyst practicing in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

她最初接受的是精神病学训练，但与雅克·拉康思想的相遇成为决定性转折，她最终于1973年至1978年间在法国接受了他的分析。

Originally trained as a psychiatrist, her encounter with the thinking of Jacques Lacan proved decisive, and she eventually undertook analysis with him in France between 1973 and 1978.

除了从事心理分析实践外，她还是一位多产的作家，创作了包括小说、戏剧、文章和访谈在内的多种作品。

In addition to practicing psychoanalysis, she's also a very prolific writer in various forms, including novels, plays, articles, and interviews.

除了写作，她还在里约热内卢弗洛伊德学派任教，该学派是她于1975年共同创立的组织，旨在向巴西传播拉康的理论。

Beyond writing, she has taught at the Freudian School of Rio de Janeiro, which is an association she co founded in 1975 for disseminating Lacan's theories in Brazil.

她曾在美国乔治城大学、约翰斯·霍普金斯大学和纽约艺术学院发表演讲，并因对巴西狂欢节文化的研究所获认可。

She has spoken at Georgetown University, Johns Hopkins University, and New York School of the Arts, and she's also recognized for her research into Brazilian carnival culture.

与拉康的分析经历尤其激发了她的创作灵感，曾启发她创作了小说《鹦鹉与医生》、戏剧《再见，医生》，以及2021年根据该剧改编的电影《告别拉康》。

Her analysis with Lacan has been an especially generative experience for her creatively, having previously inspired a novel, The Parrot and the Doctor, a play, Goodbye Doctor, and a film adaptation of that play in 2021, Adieu Lacan.

在新冠疫情初期，这段经历再次成为灵感来源，贝蒂决定终于写下一篇关于她分析经历的散文体见证，题为《为何拉康？》。

It served as inspiration again during the beginning of the COVID pandemic when Betty decided it was finally time to compose a prose testimony about her analysis entitled Why Lacan?

正是这部个人非虚构作品，连同戏剧《再见，医生》的文本，共同构成了她的第二十七本书——也就是今天我们讨论的《被拉康分析》。

It is this personal non fiction account along with the text of the play Goodbye Doctor that together comprise her twenty seventh book and the one that we're here to talk about today, analyzed by Lacan.

贝蒂，欢迎来到《新书：拉康分析》。

Betty, welcome to New Books in Cycleanalysis.

非常高兴您能来到这里。

I'm so excited to have you here.

我也是。

So am I.

我非常喜欢你的演讲。

I loved your presentation.

我们继续吧。

Let's go on.

所以我第一个问题是，我们在这里的所有访谈都从这个问题开始，我们首先承认，由于无意识的存在，完全的自我认知是不可能的。

So my first question for you is a question that we begin all of our interviews here with, and we begin by acknowledging that because of the unconscious, full self knowledge is impossible.

我们始终是分裂的主体。

We're divided subjects all the way.

但在可能认知的范围内，是什么促使你写下这本书？为什么是现在？

But to the extent that it's possible to know, what motivated you to write this particular book and why now?

你看，当时我们正处于2020年的疫情期间。

Look, it's we were in the pandemic, twenty twenty.

我无法……我住在法国和巴西。

I could not I live in France and in Brazil.

由于疫情，我无法去看我的儿子，我的小儿子。

And I could not go to see my the son of my my son, my little son because of the pandemic.

我的同伴对我说：‘现在是时候了，你终于该说清楚弗拉科到底发生了什么。’

And my companions said to me, Look, it's time you're finally right what happened exactly with Flacco.

于是我被关在家里。

So I was closed at home.

我面前放着我儿子的照片，开始写作，同时有一位朋友曾和我一起接受分析，她每周来一次，我们一起合作写这本书。

I had the photos of my little boy in front of me, and I started writing, and I had a friend that had done her analysis with me that came once a week so that we could work together on the book.

三个月后，书就完成了，最初是用葡萄牙语写的。

In three months, it was ready and in Portuguese to start with.

出版后，我的法语编辑也想出版它。

And published and then my French editor wanted to publish it.

我也和她一起参与了翻译工作。

I also worked in the translation with her.

后来我有机会由布卢姆斯伯里出版社出版这本书。

And then I had the chance to have it published by Bloomsbury.

事实上，我早在50年前就开始写这段旅程了，那时我遇到了拉康，并开始翻译他的研讨班。

In fact, I had already written the the trip started in when I was 50 ago, you know, when I met Lacan, and then started with a translation of his seminar.

那是我第一次写关于拉康的内容。

That was the first time I was writing about about what had to do with Lacan.

我做翻译是因为我无法忍受生活在法国却不能使用自己的语言。

And and and I did the translation because I couldn't stand living in France without having my language, my own language.

所以，这成为了一种同时与他工作并保持葡萄牙语的方式。

So that was a way to work with him at at the same time have Portuguese language.

之后，我写了一部小说，《阴谋》。

After that, I I wrote a novel, La Conspira.

我花了五年时间写这部小说，因为我还没有准备好写一部小说。

I worked during five years in this novel because I was not ready to write a novel.

这花了我很多时间。

And it took me a lot of time.

我想非常真实地还原他的工作方式。

I wanted to be very very truthful to the way like worked.

但同时也要符合我自己的幻想。

But at the same time to my my own fantasy.

因此，书中充满了想象力、内心独白，以及在巴黎的漫游，因为那时我同时发现了拉康和我自己。

So it's that there's a lot of imagination, interior monologues, wandering around Paris because Paris at the same time I will discovered Lacan and myself.

我正在发现巴黎。

I was discovering Paris.

然后，当我来到巴西时，我在完成分析后去了布鲁斯，并写了这部小说。

And and then I wrote this novel When I came to Brazil, I came to Bruce after my analysis.

我回到了巴西。

I came back to Brazil.

我创办了一所学校。

I founded a school.

然后，我写了这部小说。

And well, then I wrote the novel.

花了我好几年时间。

It took me years.

多年后，我决定写一部戏剧，因为我希望对话非常清晰，以及他与塞莉玛合作的方式。

Many years after, I decided to write a play because I wanted to the dialogues to be very clear and his way his way of working with Seliema.

女主角名叫塞莉玛，这并非随意取名，背后有深刻的原因。

The heroin is called Seliema and it is not it is not a kind of it has a a big reason for that.

首先，塞莉玛是一只鸟。

To start with, Seliema is a bird.

某种程度上，我这一生就像一只鸟。

And in a way, I have been a bird in my life.

我来来回回地迁徙，我喜欢这种生活方式。

I going forth and back and I like this way of living.

我的祖先从黎巴嫩移民到巴西。

And my my ancestors had to immigrate from Lebanon to Brazil.

我是移民的小小女儿。

I'm the little daughter of immigrants.

此外，这个名字本身包含两个非常重要的词。

Well, besides that, has the has two words in each that are very important.

这个词是葡萄牙语中表示‘存在’的动词，而‘Irma’则与‘Emmi’有关，意思是阿拉伯语中的母亲。

The word it's the verb that means to be in Portuguese and the word Irma has to do with Emmi, that means mother in Arab language.

所以，这个女主角的核心问题在于她无法成为母亲。

So the whole problem of this heroine is that she cannot become a mother.

她无法成为母亲，因为她无法认同自己的女性祖先。

She cannot become a mother because she cannot identify with her women ancestors.

这些事情非常不可思议，因为这个名字是自然而然出现在我脑海中的，我并没有刻意去想。

And these things are very very incredible because this name came to me without, you know, I I didn't think about it.

我没有去想它，它自己就出现了。

I didn't it came to me.

然后，在我写作的过程中，我发现了‘Emma’与‘Emmy’有关。

And then while I was writing it, I discovered that Emma had to do with Emmy.

意思是母亲。

That means mother.

这个年轻女性的核心问题，就是成为一位母亲。

And the central problem of this young this young woman is to become a mother.

正是拉康让我得以成为母亲，拒绝仇外心理，并接纳我的根源。

And that is what Lacan made it possible for me to become a mother, to refuse xenophobia and to accept my origins.

所以这是一次非常成功的分析。

So it was a very good analysis.

当我已经写完一部小说和一部戏剧后，我能够撰写一部回忆录，而无需直接谈论我自己。

And when I had already written a fiction, a novel and a play, I was able to write a memoir without having to speak about myself.

我讲述我的故事，只是为了展示拉康疗法是如何运作的。

I only told my story in order to show how LACA worked.

因为我意识到，他的理论在国外因翻译和出版物而广为人知。

Because I realized that his theory was well known abroad because of the translations, the publications.

但他的临床实践却鲜为人知。

But his clinical practice was not known.

而且真的，他是如此——用英语怎么说呢——如此高效。

And it was really, it was so, how do you say in English, so efficient.

而这种高效源于他发现了一件非常简单的事情。

And it was efficient because he had discovered something very simple, in fact.

我想问一下，我想问一下这件事。

I want to ask about I want to ask about that.

我非常喜欢‘Sarayama’这个名字的丰富内涵，以及你作为一只鸟的这个意象。

And I love I love the richness of the name Sarayama and this idea of you as a bird.

我想到的不仅是你家族故事中那种迁徙，也不仅仅是法国和巴西之间的来回往返，而是你的工作本身——通过翻译、教学和写作，你就像一只鸟，把拉康的种子带回巴西，帮助培育某种东西。

It occurs to me that not only, you know, the the migration that is part of your family story and not only going back and forth between France and Brazil, but it's also part of your work that you, via translation and through school and your writing, that like a bird, you carry seeds of lacan back to Brazil to help grow something that

那么，我刚才说到哪儿了？

So where was I?

首先，我想说的是，我希望他的临床实践为人所知。

Well, the first thing I wanted to say is that I wanted his practice to be known.

事实上，关于这种实践的文献非常少。

And in fact, there was very little texts written about this practice.

当他发现，如果你解释话语或言语的意义，抵抗就会更强时，他彻底颠覆了精神分析。

And well, he turned psychoanalysis upside down when he discovered that if you interpret the signification of a discourse, of a speech, you will resistance will be bigger.

而且他认为，如果他在他认为有趣的那个点上中断治疗会更好。

And that he you it would be much better if he cut the session at a point where he thought to be interesting.

如果他在切断对话后让分析者来做解释的话。

And if he let the analyzer do the interpretation after he had cut the session.

这使他不再以固定的时间来工作。

So that made him work, not work anymore with a fixed time.

他不再依赖克诺斯（时间的流逝），而是使用凯罗斯。

He did not work with konos, the time that passes, but with kairos.

凯罗斯是需要你抓住的机遇时刻。

Kairos is the moment of opportunity you have to seize.

因此，他切断的对话并不一定是短暂的。

So he cut the session that was not necessarily short.

这是一种可变的时间。

It was a variable time.

人们常说，他缩短会谈是为了赚更多的钱。

People used to say that he shortened the session in order to earn more money.

这并不真实。

It is not true.

因此，我尽量在我的不同著作中，尤其是回忆录中，尽可能清楚地解释这一点。

So I try to explain this as well as I can in my different works, and particularly in the memoir.

而且，我甚至想象在戏剧中戏剧化地呈现他与患者的临床会话，让阅读文本的人，甚至更进一步地，观看演出或电影的人，也能获得这种体验。

And I imagine as well dramatizing the clinical sessions with him in the play, someone who's reading the text, but even more so watching it or watching the film, can have that experience.

对吧？

Right?

他们正在体验看到并感受到那种‘中断’是什么样子、什么感觉，因为这种中断仿佛在实时发生，针对的是角色。

They're having the experience of seeing what the cut looks like and feels like because it's happening in real time, so to speak, to the character.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，拉康工作方式的一个特点是极具戏剧性。

And, you know, one of Lacan's way of working was to be very dramatic dramatical.

他能够说出一些让你深受触动的话，你知道吗？

He was he could he could say things that were very touching to you, you know?

当我到达巴黎时，他对我说：‘你来这里做什么？’

When I arrived in Paris, he he he says to me, but what are you doing here?

你已经穿越了大洋。

You have you have gone through the ocean.

你仿佛要去发现美洲。

You have as if you were going to discover America.

事实上，我发现了美洲，因为我去了巴黎。

And in fact, I discovered America because I went to Paris.

他的工作方式非常富有戏剧性。

He used to it was very dramatical, his way of working.

他总是把你的个人故事转化为史诗般的故事，仿佛你要去发现美洲。

And he used to transform your personal story in an epic story as if you were going to discover America.

我立刻被提升为英雄。

I was immediately turned up into a heroic.

一部戏剧。

A play.

将日常素材提升为极具戏剧性和史诗感的内容。

Elevating everyday material and making it into very dramatic, epic material.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就是这样。

That's it.

这就是他做心理分析的方式。

And this is his this was his way of of doing psychoanalysis.

这极大地激怒了国际精神分析学会的分析师们。

That irritated very much the analysts of the International Society of Psychoanalysis.

但每件事都有其原因。

But everything had a reason to be.

这并不是随意的，你知道吗？

It was not arbitrary, you know?

这样做的背后是有原因的。

There was a reason to behave in this way.

而且他之所以这样做的原因，也源于他对语言学的理解。

And he also he also then did it the way he did because of his approach to linguistic linguistics.

语言学的知识。

The knowledge of linguistic.

他重视的是能指，而非所指，因为他知道，一个能指只能通过其与整体（shen）的关系来解读，它所指向的意义，只有说话者本人能够诠释。

And the importance he gave to the significant and not the signification, because he knew that a significant can only be interpreted through its relationship with the whole whole shen, The significance to which it remembers, and only the person that speaks can interpret.

弗洛伊德知道这一点，因为在十九世纪末撰写《梦的解析》时，他就已经要求人们进行自由联想。

Freud knew that, because when he wrote the interpretation of the dream in end of the nineteenth century, he already asked people to associate.

他只有在做梦者完成联想、建立起其生活中的其他能指之间的关联后，才进行解读。

He only interpreted when the dreamer had associated, had made the relationship with the other significance of his life.

因此，听众非常感兴趣，我觉得我在这本书里还没说完所有该说的内容。

So audience is very interested, very interest I think I have not said everything I could have said in this book.

但是

But

这是我们所认同的，对吧？

That's one that we adhere to, right?

不可能把一切都说尽。

It's impossible to say it all.

总有些东西必须留在现场。

There's always something that has to be left on set.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你强调了拉康风格的戏剧性，以及它有多么富有戏剧效果，这一点非常引人注目。

I think it's striking that you emphasize the theatricality of Lacan style and how dramatic it can be.

显然，正如这本书所展示的，你既是分析师、临床医生，也是剧作家、戏剧家。

Clearly, you know, as this book showcases, you are both analyst, clinician, and playwright, a dramatist.

因此，我在阅读时，很好奇你自己在戏剧与精神分析之间的关系是怎样的。

And so as I was reading, I was curious about your own relationship between theater and psychoanalysis.

我也在想，戏剧是如何影响你的工作方式或实践方式的。

And I wondered how theater impacts the way you work or the way that you practice.

这和拉康的相似吗？

Is it similar to Lacan's?

并不完全相同，但很相似。

It's not the same, but it's similar.

是的，很相似。

Yes, it's similar.

事实上，我从小就开始对戏剧感兴趣。

In fact I was interested in I was interested in theater already when I was a child.

我那时就在写戏剧作品。

I was I was writing for theater.

我还让我的表亲和朋友们在我家排演。

And I had my cousins and my friends doing my place.

在遇见拉康之前，我就已经这样做了。

And then I I went before meeting Lacan.

我曾与莫雷诺合作过。

I worked with Moreno.

你知道这位心理剧大师。

You know this psychodramatist.

我不是心理剧的创始人，他有一个学派。

I'm not the The founder of psychodrama that has a school.

我不知道它现在是否还存在。

I don't know if it still exists.

纽约州北部的比孔。

Upstate New York in Beacon.

我去过比孔。

And I went to Beacon.

我和泽尔卡·莫雷诺，他的妻子，一起学习。

And I I studied with Zerka Moreno, his wife.

因为他当时已经是个非常年老的人了。

Because he was already very old man.

我担任辅助自我，和泽尔卡·莫雷诺一起去他们在纽约的剧院，那里他们进行公开的心理剧表演。

And I was an auxiliary ego, and I went with Zerka Moreno to the theater they had in New York, where they they did public psychodrama.

因此，我也接受了心理剧的训练，然后开始在巴西为一家剧院写剧本。

So I was also trained in psychodrama, and then I started writing plays in Brazil for a theater.

事实上，我写了七部剧本。

In fact, I wrote seven plays.

如果我有一个剧院，我会写更多作品，因为要让它们上演非常困难。

I would have written much more if I had a theater, because it's very difficult to be to have them performed.

但这部剧《再见，医生》由布卢姆斯伯里出版社出版，我为此投入了很长时间。

But this play, Goodbye Doctor, that has been published by Bloomsbury, I worked in it for a long time.

它最初在巴黎上演，然后在巴西上演，之后我又与罗伯特·麦基一起对它进行了修改。

It was first presented in Paris, then in Brazil, and then I worked again in it with Robert McKee.

也许你知道罗伯特·麦基是谁。

Perhaps you you know who Robert McKee is.

他是讲故事的大师。

He is the the great teacher of storytelling.

这就是它的情况。

And there it is.

现在它已经拍成了电影，或许会在纽约上演。

It's a movie now and perhaps it will be performed in New York.

我也非常喜欢它。

I like also very much.

写戏剧比写小说容易多了。

It's it's so much easier to write theater than to write novels.

这部电影太棒了。

The movie is wonderful.

如果我们的听众还没有机会找到它，那正是我第一次接触到你作品的方式，它非常引人注目。

If our listeners have not had a chance to track it down and to find it, it's the first way that I came into contact with your work, and it's so striking.

我们在正式采访前聊了几分钟，我说，我之所以特别想和你聊聊这本书、这部剧和这部电影，是因为这个戏剧文本给我带来的影响，是阅读拉康、研究拉康、谈论拉康以及接受拉康式分析都未曾达到的。

We were talking for a few minutes before we started the interview, and I said, one reason I really wanted to talk with you about this book and the play and the movie is because the dramatic text had an effect on me, that reading Lacan and studying Lacan and talking about Lacan and being in Lacan analysis, all of these things have not had.

它让人有一种非常直接的体验，仿佛置身于他所在的房间，同时也以一种大多数人永远无法、也永远不会有的方式，观察他实际的工作状态。

Was a kind of very effective immediacy about what it might have felt like to be in the room with him, but also sort of to observe in a way that most people never will, right, never can, what he might have actually worked like.

对吧？

Right?

在他的理论著作中，我们很少能如此近距离地窥见这些。

We don't get so many glimpses of that in his theoretical writing.

你看，这是几十年写作积累的结果。

Look, this was the result of three things, decades of working in writing.

在英语中，几十年意味着日复一日、年复一年地练习和写作。

See decades in English, the years and years and years of practicing and writing.

遇到罗伯特·麦基的时候，我记得很清楚。

The encounter with Robert McKee, I remember when I met him.

他说，要让故事超越生活本身。

He said he said, make it be bigger than life.

我在伦敦和他一起工作了七个小时。

I worked during seven hours with him in London.

我记得那段时间。

I remember that.

那真的太棒了。

It was really great.

他是一位非常出色的老师。

He's such a great teacher.

还有，遇见理查德·盖茨，因为理查德非常精准，他的改编也做得非常好。

And there, meeting Richard Gates, because Richard was so so accurate, and his adaptation is so good.

也许你也该采访他，因为他有很多话可以说。

Perhaps you should interview him too because there's a lot he can say.

他当时正在和保拉·米亚尼合作。

He was working with Paula Miani.

这是什么？

This this what?

这就是我们是怎么认识的。

This is how we met.

我去参加了一个会议。

I went to to do a conference.

会议结束后，理查德·迪茨执导了这部剧的讲座。

And then after the conference, Richard Dietz directed the lecture of the play.

他非常喜欢。

And he loved it.

他说，这必须拍成一部电影。

And he said, it has to become a movie.

我非常害怕。

I was very frightened.

我想，会发生什么？

I thought, what's gonna happen?

最后，它真的拍成了电影，完全符合我所想的、我认为它应该成为的样子。

And then finally, well, it became a movie exactly what I thought it had to, what I think it had to be.

因为他的灵感来自德雷尔的让·达克。

Because he was, his inspiration was Jean D'Arc of Dreier.

这是一部非常富有戏剧性的电影。

It's a very dramatic film.

他对转移的戏剧性很感兴趣，因为转移本身就非常富有戏剧性。

And he was interested in the drama of transference, because transference is very dramatic.

他处理的方式真的很出色。

And he the way he did it was really good.

大卫·帕特里克·凯利和伊丝梅尼亚·门德斯的表演非常出色。

And the performance of David Patrick Kelly and Ismenia Mendes was beautiful.

现在他又拍了另一部电影，叫《维也纳》，讲的是弗洛伊德和希特勒。

And now he did another film, it is called Vienna, about Freud and Hitler.

这部电影还没上映，但非常有趣。

It's not shown yet, but it's very interesting.

你知道，这是一个非常特别的团体，和阿兰·迪迪埃·瓦勒有很大关系。

You know, this is a group, very special group, that had much to do with Alain Didier Valle.

我不确定你是否知道阿兰·迪迪埃·瓦勒，但他是拉康最欣赏的分析者。

I don't know if you know Alain Didier Valle, but he was the analyzing of Lacan that Lacan liked best.

他过去常被邀请去参加拉康的研讨会。

He used to, you used to invite him to speak in his seminar.

他是一位非常非常出色的分析师。

Very very bright analyst.

他还是宝拉·米勒的朋友。

And he was a friend of Paula Miele.

所以我们所有人就这样认识了。

So that's the way we all met.

说到APRECU，但这里的APRECU不是指纽约的那个协会，而是指临床意义上的opera coup。

Speaking of APRECU, but APRECU, not as in the association here in New York, but opera coup as in the clinical idea.

知道，有些事情，是的。

Know, something Yes.

所以，是的。

So yes.

有些事情发生时，它的意义在当时并不明显，只有在分析之后才真正变得清晰，对吧？

Something happens and the significance of it really becomes clear, you know, only afterward, right, in in the analysis.

我读你的书时想到了Opera Cool，因为正如我们所确定的，你的分析是这部小说、这部戏剧以及回忆录的基础，我觉得这里有些非常有趣的地方。

I was thinking about Opera Cool as I was reading your book, because as we've established, right, your analysis was the basis for the novel, basis for the play, and then a memoir, and I thought there's something really interesting here.

每当我们有机会回头重新审视某件事时，有时会发现一些新的东西。

Whenever we have the opportunity to go back and really revisit something, we sometimes discover something new about it.

事后我们会意识到，哦，原来我之前没注意到某些新东西。

We realize afterward, oh, there was something new that I hadn't realized before.

有些东西让这件事变得非常有意义，而这些在我之前并不明显或未被我意识到。

There was something that made this very significant, that wasn't present to me or conscious to me before.

所以我在想，有机会回头写下你与拉康分析的回忆录，你是否发现了以前从未意识到或未曾想到的东西。

So I wondered, having the chance to go back and write this memoir about your analysis with Lacan, what, if anything, you might have discovered for the first time or realized and thought, Oh, I actually had not thought about

或者以前没有意识到这一点。

that or realized that before.

也许我意识到自己之前并没有理解某些东西。

Perhaps I realized that I hadn't grasped something.

最终找到了本质所在。

Finally found what was essential.

你必须保持一定的距离，才能发现什么是本质的。

And you have to get a distance in order to discover what is essential.

我们不能忘记，这一实践以及拉康风格的核心就是‘苹果’。

We cannot forget that the central concert of the practice and also of Lacan's style is that means apricot.

正是因为他真正相信这一点，他才能中断治疗时段，让时间发挥作用。

It is because he really believed in that he could cut the session and let it let time work.

这彻底改变了临床实践的观念，也改变了理论写作的方式。

And that changed completely the conception that the clinical practice, and also the way of writing the theory.

我认为拉康以一种非常难以理解的方式写作是可以的。

I do think that it was okay that Lacan wrote in a very unintelligible way.

因为他必须制造谜团。

Because he had to make the enigma.

这个词在英语里是这个吗？

Is that the word in English?

谜团？

Enigma?

是的。

Yes.

那就是

That's

它。

it.

进入精神分析领域，但人们不应该模仿贝克汉姆。

Enter in the psychoanalytic scene, but people should not imitate Beckham.

那是他最不希望看到的。

That's the last thing he would want.

这让我想到马奈曾经说过的话。

It makes me think about what Manet used to say.

当人们请他教绘画时，他说：我唯一能教的是，黑色是一种颜色。

When they asked him to teach painting, he said, The only thing I can teach is that black is a color.

所以拉科克斯并没有那种方式，他传授理论的方式与教师们的做法毫无关系。

So Lacroix did not have The way he transmitted the theory had nothing to do with the way teachers do it.

是影响在起作用。

And influences do it.

是沟通在起作用。

And communication does it.

毫无关系。

Nothing to do.

他知道这有多么重要，我该怎么说呢？

And he knew how important it is to, how can I say this?

不要浪费时间，但同时也要让时间发挥其在知识和理解上的作用。

Not to lose time, but at the same time, to let time do the work of knowledge, of understanding.

他教导我们不要浪费时间。

He taught us not to lose time.

去阅读他的文字。

To read his writing.

我之所以没有在一次课上讲满四十五分钟，是因为人们在课堂上可能会睡着。

The reason why I didn't just take forty five minutes in a session, because people can can sleep during a session.

他让你去努力工作。

He made you work.

当你说到‘我今天没什么可说的’时。

When you said I I could say, there's nothing I have to say today.

尽你所能。

Try your best.

继续前进。

And Keep going.

继续下去。

Keep going.

嘘。

Shum.

你说过，当然，你不能模仿拉康，但我同时也想知道，当你进行自己的实践时，你的体验是怎样的？因为世界上有很多分析师，他们的名气没有拉康那么大。

You said, you know, of course, you cannot imitate Lacan, but I I also wondered, I mean, how it is what your experience is like as you do your own practice, because there are many analysts in the world whose names are not so recognizable as Lacan's.

我想象着，如果我曾接受过拉康的分析，而他对我们的工作影响如此深远，我一定会非常心动。

I imagine that if I had had an analysis with Lacan whose influence is so profound on our work, I would be very tempted.

我会很难抗拒，完全按照老师教的方式去做。

I would find it hard to resist just doing it exactly as the teacher taught me.

所以我很好奇

So I wonder

你对此的体验

what your experience of that

是怎样的，以及你如何能够与之保持距离，从而以自己的方式工作。

is like and how you manage to separate yourself from that so that you can work in your own way.

也许是因为我不是法国人。

Perhaps because I I I'm not French.

我在法国用法语工作过，但我不是法国人。

I worked in France and in French, but I'm not France, French.

所以我无法像他那样做。

So I couldn't do it the way he did it.

这太荒谬了。

And it's so ridiculous.

当我听到巴西精神分析用葡萄牙语模仿法语时，我就会非常生气。

I get so mad when I hear psychoanalysis, Brazilian psychoanalysis speaking Portuguese as if it were French.

每种语言都有其独特的表达方式，每种语言都是一种文化。

Each language has its own way of doing and each language is a culture.

拉康是如此聪明。

And Lacrosse was so smart.

我记得有一次我在治疗中告诉他：我要回巴西了，因为我失去了眼睛。

I remember one of my one of my sessions when I told him, I'm going back to Brazil because I lost my eye.

你知道那个保护我的非洲护身符。

You know this African fetish that protected me.

在游戏和你的叙述中，当你失去这个，或这个角色，或你失去保护之眼的那一刻，是的。

In play and in your account, this moment when you lose this, or the character, or you loses, yes, this protective eye.

这让人非常不安，非常痛苦。

And it's very unsettling, very distressing.

他说：胡安，发个电报。

He says, Juan, send a telegram.

告诉人们给你再寄一个电报，而他确实是一位能够表现得像非洲导师一样的分析师。

Tell people to send you another one, a telegram, and he became became he he was an analyst that was able to behave as if he were an African master.

你知道，他非常不教条，根本不喜欢教条主义。

You know, he was so little dogmatic, and he did not like dogmatism, not at all.

不幸的是，他的许多学生变得非常教条，模仿他并压制创新，因为心理探索者没有创新是无法存在的。

And unfortunately, many of his students became very dogmatic and imitated him and censored invention because psychonauts cannot exist without invention.

不可能。

Impossible.

所以对你来说，从一开始独立工作时，就很容易抵制教条吗？

So for you, was it was it easy to resist dogma from the beginning when you started working on your own?

你很容易就说：好吧，那是骗局，但我身在巴西，我在这里做的是不同的事吗？

Was it was it easy to say, okay, that is the con, but I'm in Brazil, and I'm doing something different here?

还是这是一个逐渐形成的过程？

Or was it a process to sort of

我不得不这么做。

I had to.

当我七十年代末来到巴西时，我必须重新创造——在我翻译的过程中，我必须用葡萄牙语重新创造这些概念。

When I came to Brazil in the end of the seventies, I had to reinvent what the While I was translating, I had to reinvent the concepts in Portuguese.

这立刻改变了我看待理论的方式。

So that immediately changed the way I looked at theory.

此外，当我来到巴西时，正如他所说，我打算去发现美洲，我意识到这里有着极其丰富的文化等待我去探索，我不能把自己关在办公室里。

Besides that, when I came to Brazil, I just because I was going to discover America, as he said, I realized that there was a very rich culture to discover, and that I could not stay closed in my office.

于是我开始倾听那些参与狂欢节的人们。

So I started to listen to what the people that do carnival.

这里的狂欢节不是什么小事或不重要的东西。

Carnival here is not something small or unimportant.

这是一个奇迹。

It's a miracle.

这是一场盛大的街头歌剧。

It's a great street opera.

它非常非常丰富。

It's very, very rich.

于是我开始去贫民窟里倾听他们。

And I started and I I realized I had to go and listen to them in the favelas.

我有个保镖，我们当时用的是一个小设备，那时还没有电话。

I had a bodyguard and a little a little we used to have we didn't have a telephone yet.

我们有一个设备来记录人们的讲话。

We had something to enregister the the speak of the people.

于是我在这方面投入了大量精力，倾听、发现巴西，因为当你来自圣保罗时，你知道，你来自一个与这个国家大众文化几乎无关的环境。

And so I worked very hard on this, listening to, I, I was discovering Brazil, because when you come from Sao Paulo, you know, you come from an universe that has little to do with the popular culture of this country.

所以一开始，我们在学校做了这件事。

So to start with with we did that at the school.

我在里约热内卢找到了它，而不是在圣保罗。

I found it in Rio, not in Sao Paulo.

在圣保罗，我没有被接纳。

In Sao Paulo, I I had not been admitted.

当我来到这里时，没有我的容身之处。

When I got here, there was no place for me.

不在大学，不在我的诊所，哪里都没有。

Not in the university, not in my clinic, nowhere.

于是我说，好吧，那就里约热内卢吧。

So I said, Okay, let's do it in Rio.

但你知道，精神分析机构里有很多教条主义。

And well, but when I, you know, there's a lot of dogmatism in the psychoanalytical institution.

当我写下《鹦鹉》时，它在法国引起了反响。

When I wrote The Parrot, it was sentient in France.

拉科斯特的女儿，她一直在等我的小说，对我说：‘这太巴西了。’

Lacoste's daughter that was waiting for my novel said to me, It's too Brazilian.

所以这本书在法国出版花了好几年时间。

So it took years before the book could be published in France.

那么，嗯，是的。

And well, where did the Well, yes.

我不想再多谈这个了。

I don't want to speak more about that.

但在精神分析领域，存在着大量的教条主义和审查制度。

But there's a lot of dogmatism and censorship in psychoanalysis.

但在这里，巴西，我们有一所非常好的学校，叫做弗洛伊德派身体。

But here in Brazil, we have very good school, a very good school, that is called the Freudian body.

它有很多关联。

And it has a lot of relationship.

它与阿派库也有联系，但与法国和整个拉丁美洲的联系更为紧密。

It has relationship with Apaikou also, but a lot of relationship with France and the rest of Latin America.

而且这非常严重。

And it's very serious.

因为除了精神分析之外，我们还有什么知识可以用来理解世界正在发生的事情呢？

Because what can we what can we what knowledge do we have to understand what's happening in the world besides psychoanalysis?

昨天，我受邀参加了一场由巴西大使举办的会议，他是一位非常杰出的人。

Yesterday, I was invited to a conference done by Brazilian ambassador, Very bright one.

他在进行比较。

And he was comparing.

他谈到了正在发生的更多战争。

He was speaking about the wars that are going on more.

他阐述了紧张局势与争议之间的区别。

And he spoke about he he established the difference between tension and a controversy.

当存在紧张局势时，你无法解决它。

When there is tension, you cannot solve it.

看看当你有自信时，争议会发生什么。

Look what's happening in when you have confidence, controversy.

你有机会进行谈判和解决。

You have the possibility of negotiation and solution.

但你不能，所以他谈到了，他确立了这一区别。

But you cannot so he was he he spoke about he established this difference.

我意识到，紧张与潜意识有关，而争议则与象征化有关。

I realized that tension has to do with potion and contours with symbolization.

和平世界的唯一途径是教育人们，因为象征化才成为可能。

The only way to pacify the world is to educate people because symbolization becomes possible.

因此，我能够建立起世界历史与主观历史之间的这种联系。

So that's a relationship I could establish between the world history and the subjective history.

在我看来，这是我们必须要努力的事情。

And that's something we have to work on, in my opinion.

我认为这是我们亟需大量投入的工作。

I think it's something we need to do a lot of work on.

我觉得你说得太对了。

I think you're so right.