一切都好，我只是更努力一点：前狠人的自白

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是马歇尔·波。

This is Marshall Poe.

我是新书网络的创始人兼主编。

I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network.

如果你正在收听这个节目，那你一定知道新书网络是全球最大的学术播客网络。

And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world.

我们拥有两百万的全球听众。

We reach a worldwide audience of 2,000,000 people.

你可能已经拥有一个播客，或者正考虑创建一个播客。

You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast.

正如你所知，这会面临一些挑战。

As you probably know, there are challenges.

基本上分为两类。

Basically, of two kinds.

一是技术问题。

One is technical.

你需要掌握一些知识，才能制作和发布你的播客。

There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed.

第二个问题是，也是最大的难题，你需要吸引听众。

And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience.

在播客领域，建立听众群体是当今最难做到的事情。

Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today.

请记住，我们在NBN推出了一项名为NBN Productions的服务。

Put this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions.

我们的工作是帮助你创建、制作、发布播客，并托管你的播客。

What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast.

最重要的是，我们会将你的播客分发给NBN的听众群体。

Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience.

我们已经多次为许多学术播客提供过这项服务，我们很乐意帮助你。

We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you.

如果您有兴趣与我们讨论我们如何帮助您制作播客，请联系我们。

If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us.

请前往新书网络的首页，您会看到指向NBN制作的链接。

Just go to the front page of the New Books Network, and you will see a link to NBN productions.

点击它，填写表格，我们可以聊聊。

Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk.

欢迎来到新书网络。

Welcome to the New Books Network.

大家好，欢迎来到学术人生。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to academic life.

这是一档为您的学术旅程及更远未来打造的播客。

This is a podcast for your academic journey and beyond.

我是制作人兼主持人，克里斯蒂娜·格塞尔博士。

I'm the producer and your host, doctor Christina Gessler.

今天，我非常高兴邀请到卡娜·戈姆利博士，她是《一切都好，我只是更努力工作》一书的作者。

And today, I am so pleased to be joined by doctor Kara Gormley, who is the author of Everything is Fine, I'll Just Work Harder.

欢迎来到节目，戈姆利教授。

Welcome to the show, professor Gormley.

嗨。

Hi.

谢谢你来找我。

Thank you for me.

我非常高兴你来到这里，我们能聊聊你的书以及是什么启发你写这本书。

I am so glad that you're here and that we get to talk about your book and what inspired you to write it.

在那之前，你能先介绍一下你自己吗？

Before we do that, will you please tell us about yourself?

当然。

Sure.

我是一名漫画家。

I am a cartoonist.

我是一名研究员。

I'm a researcher.

我是一名教授。

I'm a professor.

我是个早起的人。

I'm a morning person.

我喜欢创作关于科学的漫画，让科学变得贴近生活，因为我觉得世界上有太多优秀的科学成果，却被付费墙阻挡，或因缺乏通俗易懂的表达而难以被普通人理解。

I love making comics, about science and making it relatable because I think there's so much great science out there and a lot of it is trapped behind paywalls or trapped because it's not really accessible, in kind of like common language or not really made relatable to everyday life.

所以这些对我来说都是重要的……

So those are kind of like big

这些是我身上比较重要的方面。

those are kind of big things about me.

因为这是学术生活，我们很想听听人们是如何走上高等教育之路的。

Because this is the academic life, we like to hear a bit about how people found their pathway through higher ed.

你当初就知道自己想当教授吗？你知道自己会对科学如此热爱吗？

Did you know that you wanted to be a professor and did you know that you were going to have such a passion for science?

没有。

No.

两者都不是。

No to both.

其实，在高中时。

So I was actually, in high school.

我非常讨厌数学和科学。

I have really deeply disliked math and science.

我学习科学的方式感觉就像一堆彼此无关、与我无关的事实。

The way that I was learning science felt like this kind of collection of facts that didn't seem to be related or relevant to me.

它只是需要吸收然后复述的东西。

It was kind of something to take in and then regurgitate.

我其实有一个成为调查记者的远大梦想。

I actually had a big dream of being an investigative journalist.

所以我上大学时以为自己会走这条路。

And so I went to college thinking that was what I was gonna do.

但我在大学里学习了一些科学哲学，我的科学观彻底改变了，我意识到科学其实非常富有创造力。

But I I studied some philosophy of science in college, and I got really kind of my understanding of science really changed, and I realized that it's actually really creative.

这关乎提出问题。

It's about asking questions.

这关乎我们不知道但充满好奇并想探索的一切。

It's about all of these things that we don't know that we're curious about and that we wanna explore.

所以我经常告诉学生，我总是对这条道路感到惊讶，因为这绝对是那种我没有计划过的事情。

And so I tell students a lot that I'm always kinda surprised that that this was my path because it's definitely one of those things where I didn't plan for this.

然后，我可以说是通过一条后门找到了它，没错，出乎意料。

And then, I found it kind of, I guess, like, through a backdoor essentially, yeah, unexpectedly.

我认为这或许正是大学的美妙之处——上大学、选修课程、学习你原本不了解的东西，你可能会发现你其实很喜欢，或者你的世界观被彻底颠覆。

And I think that's maybe some of the beauty of college, of going to college and taking classes and studying things that you don't know, that you, you know, that you might expect, you might find out you really enjoy or have your worldview turned upside down.

在研究生院，我发现我真的很喜欢做研究。

And and then in graduate school, it turned out in graduate school, I really loved doing research.

在我通过论文答辩后，我心想：天啊，不会吧。

And after I defended my dissertation, I I was like, oh, no.

这难道就是终点了吗？

Is this, like, the end?

结果发现，教授的生活在很多美好的方面感觉非常相似。

And it turns out that, professor life feels very similar in many of the good ways.

所以，是的，我我已经

And so, yeah, I've I've

自从啊，天哪，已经一直在学术界待了很长时间了。

been in academia, since, oh my gosh, like a really long time now.

这就引出了你的书。

That brings us to your book.

你的书名叫《一切都会好起来的》。

Your book is called Everything is Fine.

我会更加努力，前狠人的自白。

I'll just work harder, Confessions of a Former Badass.

露西？

Lucy?

是什么促使你写这本书的？

What inspired you to write the book?

所以，这感觉像是一个我必须讲述的故事。

So this felt like a story that I had to tell.

我真的很觉得它在我体内，几乎就像我必须把它生出来一样。

I felt really like it was it felt like it was in my body and essentially kind of like I needed to birth this.

有一段时间，我开玩笑地告诉朋友，这感觉就像一个书宝宝，而它确实就是这样。

I was kind of jokingly for a while telling friends that it felt like a book baby, and it really it really did.

这是一个我必须讲述的故事，它从我心中倾泻而出；写这本书很难用普通的语言来形容，因为这是一本图文回忆录，是艺术，是漫画。

It it was this story that I needed to tell that kind of came pouring out of me and writing, making this book, it's hard to use the language about writing the book because it's a graphic memoir, so it's art, it's comics.

但制作这本书极大地满足了我内心深处的某种需求。

But making the book really satisfied something very deeply in me.

在写这本书之前，你已经画漫画很久了。

And you had been making comics for a while before this.

对吗？

Is that right?

是的。

Yeah.

我从研究生时期就开始画漫画了。

I've been making comics really since grad school.

那时我只是为自己画漫画，有点像日记漫画。

I was making comics just for myself then, and kind of like diary comics.

在尝试怀孕的过程中，我开始创作将我所阅读的生殖技术科学内容与自传体漫画融合的漫画。

And then through the process of trying to have a a baby, I started to make comics that really integrated the science that I was reading about reproductive technology with kind of autobio comics.

这成为了一种帮助我应对过程中所有不确定性、那种完全失控感的方式。

And it became this kind of way to help myself cope with all of the uncertainty, with the, like, the total lack of control in the process that I had.

整个过程既可怕又奇妙，是科学与运气的结合。

It was really, this whole process that's kind of like both awful and wondrous and it's like a combination of science and luck.

因此，我的漫画创作实践在此时真正固化了下来。

And so really I feel like my comics practice kind of cemented then.

我认为，正是从那时起，漫画对我而言变得至关重要，而在此之前，它更多只是一种消遣方式。

It's when I think comics became really integral to for me, in a way that before it was just more like a kind of a way to play.

这本书是一部图像小说。

And this book is a graphic novel.

你之前有阅读过图画小说吗？你是如何找到那些帮助你塑造作品的参考文本的？

Had you been a consumer of graphic novels, how did you find your mentor texts to help shape yours?

哦，好问题。

Oh, good question.

所以我真的，我

So I had really like, I

在这个过程中，我把它们称为#图书目标。

was calling them hashtag book goals through this process.

我非常喜欢图画回忆录。

I I love graphic memoirs.

我非常喜欢图画小说。

I love graphic novels.

我一位亲密的朋友开玩笑说，我喜欢没有文字的书，这确实如此。

One of my dear friends jokes that I like books without words, which is true.

而且我会说，漫画、图画回忆录和图画小说其实是有文字的，我认为它们最棒的地方在于，它们在布局、设计和讲述故事的方式上非常灵活。

And and I I would say that, like, comics and graphic memoir and graphic novels do have words, they actually have I think what's so awesome about them is they're so flexible in how they can be set up and designed and the stories they tell.

所以我心中有几个明确的‘书籍目标’。

And so I had several kind of book goals in mind.

有一本书叫，让我想想。

There is a book called let's see.

特蕾莎·王的《亲爱的猩红》就是我的一个书籍目标。

So Theresa Wong's book, dear Scarlet, was one of my book goals.

这是一本关于特蕾莎·王产后抑郁经历的图文回忆录，这个目标之所以成为目标，是因为她以极其简洁而坦诚的方式，配合简单的插图，讲述了这个故事。

It's a graphic memoir about, Teresa Wong's experience of postpartum depression and that that particular book goal, was a book goal really because of how like both simply and vulnerably she was able to tell this story with really simple illustrations.

另一个对我来说的书籍目标是埃琳·威廉姆斯的图文回忆录《通勤》，这本书通过一天上下班的通勤经历，反思了作为幸存者的含义。

Another book goal for me was Erin Williams' graphic memoir called Commute, which is this sort of reckoning with what it means to be a survivor and told through the lens of a single day's commute to work.

它直白、坦率且有力地揭穿了羞耻感。

And it's a really blunt and direct and kind of powerful takedown of shame.

此外还有几本其他书。

And then there were several others.

特莎·霍尔的书在我完成自己这本书的过程中出版了，我的意思是，如果你还没读过这本书，它已经获得了普利策奖。

Tessa Hall's book came out as I was kind of finishing up working on my book and that I mean, that book, if you haven't read that book, it's, it's received the Pulitzer.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

她花了十年时间才写完。

It took her ten years to write.

这真是一部杰作，这本书也 definitely 对我产生了很大的影响。

It's such like a tour de force, and that book definitely felt like a big influence for me too.

当你描述这本书时，

When you describe this book,

简要介绍一下吧？

what's the elevator pitch?

一位工作过度的教授经历了一个触发事件，揭开了过去的创伤，随后接受治疗并获得了转变性的体验。

Overworked professor basically has this kind of trigger that happens that brings to light this prior trauma, and they go to therapy and have a transformative experience

这彻底地、以最好的方式颠覆了他们的生活。

that really kind of, like, turns their life upside down in the best possible way.

故事带我们经历了你日常的典型场景，我们很早就清楚地意识到，你是有意地心不在焉。

The story takes us through typical days for you, and we get this clear idea early on that you are very distracted, on purpose.

所以我们能看到窗外的东西，但你并没有真正看到它们。

So we'll see things out the window, but you aren't seeing them.

我们会看到你有多忙。

We'll see how busy you have to be.

你的伴侣试图花时间和你在一起，但你就是抽不出时间。

Your partner makes bids to spend time with you, and and and you can't make that time.

随着我们读完这本书，我们开始明白你为何把自己埋在工作中。

And as we go through the book, we start to understand why you are burying yourself in work.

你愿意分享一下你的故事吗？

Do you wanna share a bit about, your story?

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得这很惊人的是，我认为这就是很多人出现创伤反应的方式，而我们甚至没有意识到它们。

So I think what's like wild about this is that I think that this is how trauma responses show up for a lot of people and that we don't even recognize them.

我们没有意识到，这种必须不断做事、不断修复、不断以某种方式行动、保持高效和有用的需求，其实是一种创伤反应。

We don't see that this need to be constantly doing, constantly fixing, constantly acting in some kind of way, productive, being useful as a trauma response.

它以这些非常平凡的方式表现出来，我在我的回忆录中试图描绘过。

And it shows up in these really mundane ways that I've tried to illustrate in my memoir.

比如过度工作，那种持续不断的、几乎可以称之为高度警觉的状态，时刻关注着待办事项。

Things like just the overworking, the like constant, essentially like might describe it almost as like hypervigilance of what needs to be done, staying on top of a to do list.

我认为这非常普遍，因为生活在一个资本主义社会里，生产力受到推崇，这是我们谋生和立足的方式，这种心态通常确实帮助我们获得成功，对吧？

And I think that is like so common and I mean, because because we live in this, like, capitalistic society where productivity is, you know, praised and it's kind of how we earn our keep and how we get by in life, that mentality is like really usually like it helps it helps us afford it affords us to be successful, right?

但代价巨大，我认为代价非常大。

But, at a big cost, like I think at a big cost.

而这种普遍的外部认可——你完成了这么多事啊，你真高效啊，你真能干啊——让我们很多人无法去审视自己内心：为什么我们想要如此忙碌，或者为什么我们能强迫自己一直保持忙碌。

And that kind of pervasive external validation of you get so much done or, oh, you're so productive or you're so efficient, it keeps many of us from interrogating what's going on inside ourselves that we want to be that busy or that we can force ourselves to be that occupied all the time.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

And exactly.

我认为你陷入了类似仓鼠轮的循环，就像我书的封面那样，你无法停下来，因为这是一种自我强化的机制。

And I think you get on this essentially like a gerbil wheel, kind of like the cover of my book where you can't get off because it's self reinforcing.

你做得越多，就需要做得更多。

The more you do, then the more you have to do.

你永远无法满足，因为内在的自我价值感缺失，你的价值完全依赖于外界的肯定。

And you've never satisfied something because internally your worth is you you don't have a sense of internal worth.

这一切都建立在一种永远无法获得足够的外部认可之上。

It's all based on this external validation that you'll never get enough of.

而最可怕、最令人心酸的是，能够跳下这个轮子，意识到需要放慢脚步，察觉到或许还有另一种生活方式。

And that's kind of the the, like, terrible, like, very sad part of it, to be able to hop off that and to recognize, like, to slow down and to notice, oh, maybe there's a different way to be.

在书中，

And in the book,

我们看到这种方式对你来说已经难以为继。

we see that it becomes untenable for you.

你无法再继续过这样的生活，但去接受心理治疗的想法也让你犹豫不决，因为正如许多听众能感同身受的那样，问题不仅在于能否找到治疗师，更在于能否找到一位专业对口、适合你的治疗师。

You can't keep living the way that you had, but the idea of going to therapy also gave you great pause because I think, as many listeners can relate to, it's not just if you can find a therapist, it's if you can find one who is the right fit for you with the right specialty.

如果这些条件都不具备，有些人反而会在错误的治疗师那里受到伤害。

And if all those things don't line up, some people are wounded by the time they spend with the wrong therapist.

对。

Right.

确实如此。

That's very true.

所以你决定要

And so you make the decision that you're going

去

to

寻找适合你的治疗师。

pursue finding the right therapist for you.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是关键。

And I think that's key.

而且我觉得人们，我的意思是，找到合适的治疗师，找到那个

And I think people I mean, I think finding that fit, finding that

建立默契，同时认识到建立默契需要时间，这真的很难。

the rapport, and also recognizing that it takes time to develop the rapport, that's that's that's hard.

你带我们经历了这么多治疗场景，我们看到你在那里，然后看到你之后的感受。

You take us through, so many of the sessions, and we see you there, and then we see how you're feeling afterwards.

我们看到了继续下去的决定有多么困难。

We see the difficulty in making the decision to keep going.

你能跟我们谈谈，当你带我们走过这段如此私人的旅程时，你想向读者传达什么吗？

Can you talk to us about what you wanted to share with your readers, in taking us through such a personal journey?

天啊。

Oh gosh.

太多了。

So much.

所以我想首先说的是，因为你提到了书中角色真正挣扎着是否要继续治疗的部分——因为治疗真的很艰难。

So I think so first, I'm I would speak to the fact that, because you're referencing the part of the part of the book where where the character is really struggling with wanting to continue like, wanting to continue therapy because therapy is hard.

我认为这非常真实，因为人们通常去接受治疗，至少对我过去的经验来说，我去看治疗是为了扑灭眼前的火。

And I think that is such a real thing, when, you know, people often go to therapy and at least for me in the past, my experience was I'd gone to therapy to sort of like extinguish the immediate fire.

一旦完成了，感觉很好，我就放弃了。

And then once it was done, that was good and I would quit.

所以我从未有机会深入探索那些可能在某种程度上引发这些火焰的深层问题。

So I never got to go kind of deeper into the things that might be kind of underneath, like, sparking that fire in some kind of way.

所以这部分，我认为正是认识到接受治疗所需付出的努力，这是一种非常真实的感觉。

And so that part, I think it's, like, just such a real feeling of recognizing the work that it takes to to go to therapy.

因为这不仅仅是去接受治疗。

Because it's not just going to therapy.

它还包括在治疗间隔期间的努力，以及认真审视自己，看到那些让你对自己感到满意的地方，同时也直面那些带来巨大痛苦的事物，并真正去感受这些情绪。

It's, like, the work in between sessions and the work of, like, looking really hard at yourself and, like, seeing the things that, you feel great about yourself, but then also seeing the things that bring a lot of pain, and actually being with feeling the feelings.

所以我认为这部分非常真实，我想要真正地认可这种体验——当治疗变得极其艰难时，人们想要退出是很常见的，因为有时候直面自己内心的这些部分真的很难。

So I think that part is very real, and I wanted to make I wanted to essentially kinda, like, validate that experience of that's so common of of people wanting to leave kinda when it gets really hard because it's really hard to show up and face those parts of yourself sometimes.

我认为我想分享的另一个重要信息是，这类旅程是可能的，而且它们真的会改变我们。

I think the other big message I wanted to share was that that these kinds of journeys are possible and that they really change they change us.

我认为它们不仅改变了我们自己，还会产生连锁反应。

And I think they change not only us, but I think it has a domino effect.

所以，我并没有在我的书里写过这一点，但 personally 我可以这么说，我亲眼看到这些变化在我认识的人身上产生了涟漪效应。

So I I don't I didn't really write about this in my book, but I can say personally that I've seen kind of changes these sort of ripple effects all through people that I know.

我认为，每个人在自我成长的过程中，都不是在真空中改变的。

And I think every everyone doing their work on themself, we kind of like we we don't change in a vacuum.

对吧？

Right?

我们的改变是关系性的，是彼此相互影响的。

We're changing kind of relationally, and we're changing with each other.

我觉得这一点非常有力。

And I think there's something really powerful about that.

其中一个

One of

我在阅读过程中注意到的一点是，当你在治疗中时，所有这些情绪都会涌现出来。而我从学术界出来后知道，我们常常忙得不可开交，满脑子都是别人的工作，因此对我们许多人来说，当终于有时间静下心来面对自己的情绪时，我们早已不擅长温柔地对待它们了。

the things that, I noticed as I was reading along was all of these feelings are coming up when you're in therapy, and having come out of academia, I know that we can just stay so busy and have so much of other people's work to think about that for many of us, when we have time to sit with our feelings, we're way out of practice to be kind about it.

对很多人而言，他们一路上并没有真正发展出应对强烈情绪的工具，因为所有的赞美和认可都来自于回避人性中那些混乱的部分，只专注于高效产出。

And for many people, they haven't really developed the tools along the way for some of the bigger feelings because all of the praise and validation came from avoiding a lot of the messy parts of being human and just digging into being productive.

比如，我知道自己正经历一件糟糕的事，需要处理，但我还是可以先完成导师交给我的任务，或者完成我正在做的编辑项目，至于我真正的人类需求，以后再操心吧？

Like, okay, I am having this awful thing that I need to deal with, but sure, I can I can get all this done for my adviser, or I can get all this done on this editing project that I'm on, and I can worry about my actual human needs some other time down the road?

没错。

Yes.

百分之百如此。

Like, a 100%.

有趣的是，今天我刚对朋友说，我们特别擅长做表格，但真正做起来却难得多。

And it's funny because I was just saying to a friend today, like, we're so good at making spreadsheets, and it's so much harder.

我认为学术界还让我们习惯于活在头脑里，生活在一种高度理智化的空间中，而不是真正活在身体里。

And I think also academia allows us to really live in our brain, and to live, like, in this intellectualized space instead of necessarily in our bodies.

这一点我也试图在我的书中展现：我的身体常常完全被忽视，甚至连一些基本需求都顾不上，比如工作得太久后，我才意识到：天啊。

And that's something I try to portray in my book too of, like, how my body often got really lost even in terms of very basic needs, like working so much that then I'm like, oh, no.

我得去上厕所了。

I need to go to the bathroom.

我怎么会在这里连续做了四个小时的事情？

And, like, I've how have I been here doing this thing for four hours?

但我觉得这太普遍了。

But I think that's so common.

当我们真的能退后一步时，这很难。

And when we can actually take that step back and it's hard.

感受你的情绪，真正融入你的身体，与你的神经系统共处，尤其是当身体内感觉并不安全时，一开始真的很难。

Feeling your feelings actually dropping into your body, being with your nervous system, especially if it doesn't feel very safe in there, is is really hard in the beginning.

但当我们允许这些情绪以及由此带来的成长时，我认为它会带来非常多的回报。

But it is such has so many rewards, I think, when we kind of allow those feelings and the growth that comes from that.

我们在书中看到的一点是，治疗师并没有只是把你丢进潘多拉的盒子，说：‘好吧，现在你知道你有这么多情绪了。’

One of the things that we see in the book is that the therapist didn't just sort of leave you to the Pandora's box and say, well, now you know you have all these feelings.

祝你好运。

Good luck.

而是为你树立了一个典范，即对你带到治疗中的任何东西都表现出彻底的接纳，让你明白你值得彻底接纳并爱自己。

But was to, really model for you a level of radical acceptance of whatever you brought to therapy the therapist could handle, and that you deserve to be able to radically accept and love yourself.

彻底接纳真的很有意思。

Radical acceptance is really interesting.

是的，我想说，确实如此，

And, yeah, I would say, like, definitely, that was

被示范出来了。

modeled.

我认为，接纳是一种我们有时会简单化理解的概念，比如接纳自己，但它也意味着接纳那些本质上可能很简单或很复杂的事情，比如：‘我讨厌这件事，这没关系’，真正允许那些不愉快的感受存在。

And I think radical acceptance is I think we sometimes have this, like, really simplistic, understanding of acceptance and of accepting ourselves, but it's also like accepting the things like, essentially, it can be as simple or as complex as saying something like, it's okay that I I hate this thing, and, like, really allowing the the unpleasant.

然后，当然，你可以从那里采取行动，也可以决定不采取行动。

And then, of course, like, you know, you can take action from there or you can decide not to.

但接纳现实，我认为困难的部分在于，接纳我们通常几乎没有控制力这一事实。

But, like, accepting the reality, and accepting I think the hard part of it is that it's about accepting that often we have very little control.

我认为在学术界，我们有时会以为自己拥有某种力量，或者有很多方式去解决问题、让事情变得更好。

And I think in academia, sometimes we want to think we have, like, this power or, yeah, a lot of, like, ways to fix or make things better.

在某些方面，这确实是正确的。

And in some ways, that's true.

但在另一些方面，我们需要真正面对这样一个现实：我的力量是受限的，这才是我真正能够行动并带来改变的地方。

But in some ways, it's like really reckoning with, like, actually, my power is constrained and limited and that this is, like, where I can actually act and make a change.

而主要的是，这在我自己的范围内，认识到我们有时希望别人改变，但这是不可能的，当我们无法接受现实——即事物本来的样子时，这种想法会持续给我们带来悲伤和痛苦。

And primarily, that's, like, that's, like, within my own sphere of myself, and, like, recognizing the ways that sometimes we want other people to change, and then that's not possible, and the ways that, like, that kinda continues to bring us grief and pain when we can't accept those realities of, like, the way things actually are.

这本书带我们进入了看似创伤后应激的状态。

The book takes us into what appears to be post traumatic stress.

你在大学时经历了一次创伤事件，并一直带着它，却没有得到你需要的支持和帮助。

You had had a traumatic event in college and had carried it forward with you and hadn't had the kind of support and help that you needed.

它让我们看到你背负了多少自我责备和羞耻。

And it takes us into how much self blame and shame that you carried.

你的治疗师帮助你安全地探索了一点：这种自我责备是一种试图在世界不安全、不可预测时重新获得控制感的方式。

And one of the things that your therapist helped you safely explore is how that kind of self blame is a means of trying to regain control when the world isn't safe or predictable.

我们可以说：至少我知道如何控制自己。

We can say, Well, at least I know how to control me.

我知道如何在这种情况下看待自己，并为所有当事人和所有情况承担全部责任。

I know how to see myself in this situation, and I take all responsibility for all parties and all all situations.

这在某种程度上让我们觉得，当创伤发生、世界彻底崩塌时，我们终于为世界赋予了意义。

And that somehow feels like then we've made sense of the world when it shifted so badly when this trauma happened.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我认为这是其中一部分。

So that's I think that's part

的一部分。

of that.

这还稍微涉及到了接受的部分，对吧？如果我们一直认为我们可以改变这些事情或控制这些事，它会给我们带来很多安全感。

It it kinda goes a little bit into the acceptance acceptance part too, right, of, like, if we keep thinking we can just change these things or control this thing, it offers us a lot of safety.

所以，是的，自我责备是另一种方式，本质上是通过承担这种不合理的责备和羞耻感来让我们的世界变得更安全。

And so the, yeah, the self blame is another kind of, like, angle on that of essentially, like, trying to make our world safer by taking on this unwarranted blame and shame.

这真是一个奇怪的对比：我们让自己感到安全，但同时也感到非常糟糕。

That it's so it's it's really weird juxtaposition of, like, we're making ourselves feel safe, but also feel just awful.

但当我们这样做的时候，我们确实避免了一些不确定性，以及真正认识到自己缺乏控制力时所带来的巨大悲伤。

But we're protected from some of the, like, uncertainty and some of the, like, big, big grief of, like, really recognizing our lack of control when we do that.

这本书带我们走过了你旅程中的很大一部分，我们开始看到，当你望向窗外、决定提前下班、当伴侣再次问我们去散步好吗？

The book takes us through a a big chunk of your journey, and we start to see, when you are seeing what's happening outside the window, when you decide you're gonna leave work early, when your partner asks again, can we go for a walk?

而你回答：好。

And you say, yes.

你能跟我们谈谈这段旅程吗？

Can you talk to us about the journey?

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为这部图文回忆录最有趣的部分是，它仍然是一个故事。

So, I mean, I think the fascinating part of this well, so one of the, I think, interesting parts of writing this graphic memoir is that it's still a story.

对吧？

Right?

因为必须如此——我得构建一个叙事。

Because it has to I have to create a narrative.

这个叙事有起承转合，有触发事件、起伏，以及一种相当琐碎的结局。

There's this narrative arc, where there's kind of, like, act inciting action and then a rise and fall and, like, a completion and and a fairly kind of tiddish.

我不希望结局太过完美，但它终究还是个结局。

I didn't want it to be too tiddish of an ending, but it still is an ending.

而在现实生活中，情况要混乱得多。

And in real life, it's so much messier.

人类是混乱的，旅程也是混乱的，那句老话怎么说来着——愈合不是线性的。

Like, humans are messy and journeys are messy, and there's that whole saying that healing is not linear.

所以，现实生活比书本甚至回忆录中展现的要混乱得多。

And so it's definitely more messy than in a in a book and even memoir.

这很有趣，因为它并不完全是自传。

It's interesting because it's not exactly autobiography.

但它仍然以某种方式被故事化了。

It's still it's still storified in some kind of way.

但这段旅程，是的，旅程是复杂的。

But the journey, yeah, the journey is complicated.

我认为，本质上，这几乎就像学习，而其中一些学习其实是放下已有的观念。

And I think that, like, essentially, it's almost like the learning and and some of the learning is really unlearning.

因此，摆脱那些根深蒂固的思维模式和存在方式，让我得以开启新的存在方式。

So unlearning of, like, really deeply rooted, paradigms and ways of being allowed me to open up into new ways of being.

我认为，随着我不断摒弃旧有观念并学习更健康的方式，这一切逐渐累积起来。

And I think that as I unlearned and then learned healthier ways, it all kind of compounded.

因此，我认为书中我试图展现的几件事对我而言至关重要，那就是需要摒弃并重新学习的内容，比如彻底接纳、同情心，以及总体上放慢节奏、真正与自己的身体建立连接——而这种连接在过去让我感到不安全。

And so there I think there were several things that I've tried to illustrate in the book that were really important for me to kind of unlearn and learn, and those were things like radical acceptance, compassion, just this whole idea of slowing down generally and of really trying to be in my body in a way that I don't think felt safe before.

书的背面

The back of

是资源和参考文献。

the book are resources and references.

你为这本书做了研究。

You did research for the book.

你在接受治疗时也在做研究吗？当治疗师建议你尝试某些方法或引入一些概念，让你深入探索时？

Were you doing research when you were in therapy as well, when therapists would suggest different things that you might want to try or bring in concepts for you and you can dive deeper into them?

因为看起来研究对你来说一直是一个带来安慰和乐趣的领域。

Because it seems like research has been a place of comfort and enjoyment for you.

天啊，是的。

Oh my gosh, yes.

我是个超级书呆子。

I'm a giant nerd.

我热爱研究。

I love research.

我不确定我是更喜欢做原创研究，还是更喜欢阅读别人的研究。

I don't know if I like doing original research or reading other people's research more.

也许甚至可以说，阅读一些东西，然后将其总结并以一种更通俗易懂的方式呈现给大众，这本身就能带给我极大的满足感。

Maybe even I mean, there's something really, like, that brings me such satisfaction too of, like, reading stuff and then summarizing it and putting it into, like, a understandable way for a more general public.

但确实，在整个过程中，我一直在阅读，比如我对EMDR（眼动脱敏与再处理疗法）产生了极大的兴趣，因为它看起来实在太奇怪了；但当你开始理解它的运作原理时，会觉得它其实非常合理。

But, yeah, I know throughout the process I was reading, like I got really fascinated about EMDR, eye movement, desensitization reprocessing therapy and because it just seemed so so bizarre, it it really I mean, when you start to understand how it works, think it makes so much sense.

但一开始，我觉得这真的太奇怪了。

But, from the outset, I thought this is really bizarre.

我要盯着那个小小的追踪光点，或者某人的手指移动。

I'm gonna look at this little, like, little tracking light, this or or someone's finger moving.

有多种方式可以进行，但本质上是通过某种运动、轻拍，甚至使用会振动或轻敲的装置来进行双侧刺激。

There's different ways you can do it, but it's essentially this bilateral stimulation, via, like, some sort of movement or tapping or even holding these things that vibrate or tap.

但在完全深入这项研究之前，我觉得它真的非常古怪，特别奇怪。

But before, like, before I fully got into that research, it just seemed so wacky, like so, so bizarre.

因此，对我来说，阅读相关资料并进行这项研究真的很有帮助。

And so for me, I think reading about it and doing this research was really helpful.

而且它也让我觉得，我不知道。

And it also I don't know.

我觉得有一种感觉，我就是一个超级书呆子，超级爱学习，没有什么比在凌晨三点深入钻研谷歌学术更让我着迷的了。

I think there's something like, I just, I'm a big nerd and a big learner, and I love nothing more than, like, a 3AM, like, deep dive into some, like, Google Scholar.

我们几分钟前聊到，你创作漫画来应对怀孕过程中遇到的种种复杂情况。

We talked a few minutes ago about when you were making comics to work through, a lot of the complications that are around getting pregnant.

当我阅读这些内容时，我在思考艺术本身以及叙事作为疗愈行为的功能。

And as I was reading this, I was thinking about the functions of art itself and in storytelling itself as acts of healing.

回忆录带我们了解了你为疗愈所进行的治疗工作的重要性，但我认为写作和艺术部分在这段旅程中或许同样重要。

The memoir takes us through the importance of the therapy work that you did towards healing, but I was thinking that the writing and art part were, perhaps equally important in that journey.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，作为一名生物学教授，我习惯以一种非常结构化、公式化的方式撰写学术论文，这真的很有意思。

So I think I think it's I think it's been really interesting to, you know, as a as a biology professor, I write in this very structured kind of formulaic sort of way to write academic papers.

因此，这种格式是我非常熟悉的。

And so that's kind of like this format that I know very well.

但漫画则完全不同。

And comics are very different.

学术论文某种程度上也有其结构。

There's sort of some like with academic papers, there's some structure to it.

比如，有分镜。

There are elements like there's panels.

分镜之间有留白。

There are there's gutters between panels.

那就是分镜之间的空间。

It's that space between the panels.

但创作漫画时，打破规则的方式简直太多了。

But then there's just so many ways to break the rules in making comics.

比如，你根本可以不画分镜框。

Like, you might not make panels at all.

画面可能只是在页面上自由流淌，而分镜之间的空白可能代表一秒钟，也可能代表一年。

The art may just be kind of, like, more free flowing on the page, and a gutter might represent a second or it might represent a year.

这些规则本质上就是用来打破的，这与学术写作形成了鲜明对比。

There are it's like there's these rules that are made to be broken and which is definitely, kind of in contrast to academic writing.

对我来说，从一开始就很清楚，这本书不会是一本纯文字的书。

And I think the for me with, with making this book, it was clear from the get go that it was not gonna be, a book with words.

它将是一本漫画。

It was gonna be a it was gonna be comic.

它将是一本图文并茂的书，因为我希望展现创伤反应那些极其平凡的表现方式。

It was gonna be graphic because, I wanted to show I wanted to show these really mundane ways that trauma responses show up.

我想展现解离是什么样子，过度警觉是什么样子，以及这种过度工作又是什么样子。

And I wanted to show, like, what dissociation looks like and what kind of hypervigilance looks like and what does this overworking look like.

对我来说，漫画所特有的节奏和艺术形式，能以视觉方式传达一些用大量文字很难表达的东西。

And to me, the rhythm that comics offer, that art, it it offers something visually that I think would be really hard to convey in the same way with a lot of words.

我认为视觉在这方面有着非常强大的力量。

I think there's something really powerful about the visual for that.

而且我非常喜欢绘画，所以这部分对我来说非常令人满足。

And then I I love drawing, and so that part of it was, like, just really satisfying for me.

我们能聊聊你作为艺术家的历程吗？

Can we talk a little bit about your journey as an artist?

你是自学成才的吗？

Are you self taught?

你上过正式的课程吗？

Did you take formal classes?

你是如何磨练自己的技艺的？

How did you hone your craft?

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我大部分都是自学的，而且可以说，随着时间推移，现在实际上也是这样。

So I really took, most of it is self taught, and I would say that over time, and currently, actually,

我的风格正在变化。

my style is changing.

我觉得风格会随着需要而改变，我认为漫画的美妙之处就在于，你甚至可以用火柴人来画漫画。

I think kind of styles change as they need to change, and I think that's one of the beauties beautiful things about comics is that you can make comics with stick figures.

有一本非常受欢迎的科学漫画叫 XKCD，全是火柴人，配上大量文字。

There's a science comic that's really popular, XKCD, and it's all stick figures and then a lot of text.

还有一部漫画，画的只是些小圆点。

There's a comic that is just little blobs.

我相信是亚历克斯·诺里斯的作品。

I believe it's by Alex Norris.

没错。

Yeah.

做漫画的方式真的有太多太多了。

There there's just so many ways to do this.

对我来说，我上过几门正式课程，但更多是关于漫画和图文回忆录的叙事，而不是绘画本身。

And so for me, I took a couple of formal classes, in but it was more about kind of comics and graphic memoir storytelling than than drawing per se.

嗯，我在想我是否上过正式的绘画课。

And, yeah, I'm trying to think if I took formal drawing.

没有。

No.

不太算。

Not really.

更重要的是，我和其他漫画家一起在社群中创作。

It was really it was really also doing this, like, in community with other cartoonists.

所以在创作这本书的过程中，我确实达到了某个阶段。

So I did reach, like, a point of in in the process of creating this book.

有一段时间特别孤独，因为当你决定做这样的事时，唯一能逼你坚持下去的人只有你自己。

It was super lonely for a while, because, when you decide to do something like this, the only person who's gonna make you do it is you.

我到了一个阶段，觉得我真的需要别人来看看我的作品。

And I got to this point where I thought, I really need other people's eyes on this.

我需要别人的反馈。

I need other people's feedback.

我需要有人告诉我，哪些地方有效，哪些地方无效。

I need people to tell me like what is working, what's not working.

而且，我也觉得我需要那种来自其他身处同样困境中的人的激励或同伴情谊，来共同完成这样的创作。

And, also, I felt like I needed sort of the motivation or, like, the camaraderie of other people essentially in the trenches of making some kind of work like this.

于是，我加入了序列艺术家工作坊，简称SAW。

And so I joined Sequential Artist Workshop, which is abbreviated as SAW.

SAW简直是改变人生的经历。

And SAW was SAW was, like, also life changing.

那里是一个由漫画家和图文回忆录创作者组成的完整社群，这真的帮助我既能深入创作，也能在需要时抽身出来。

It's a whole community of cartoonists and graphic memoirists, and that really helped me to be able to, like, both go deeper and also step away from my work as needed.

我非常感激索尔，正是他让这段经历不再那么孤独。

I, like, I just credit Saul with so much, and it it made the experience feel much less isolating.

如果我能拥有这样一群志同道合的人，他们也在努力讲述自己内心强烈想表达的故事，那感觉会完全不同。

And if it felt like instead I had this, like, lovely community of people who are like minded and trying to work their way through this their own stories that they felt really compelled to tell.

我们在书后的致谢部分看到了这一点，你感谢他们以温和的方式提出尖锐的问题，并与你同行。

And we get a glimpse of that in the acknowledgments at the back, and you thank them for asking hard questions in soft waves, and for being community with you.

听起来在某些情况下，他们就像是测试读者，查看内容并给予反馈。

And for it sounds like in some cases being beta readers, you know, looking at things and giving feedback.

是的。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的 Sequential Artist Workshop 和由它衍生出的批评小组，真的让我觉得，如果没有这种反馈，我可能无法完成这部作品。

I mean, really a really between Sequential Artist Workshop and my critique group, grew out of Sequential Artist Workshop, I feel like I I don't know if I could have done this completed it without that kind of feedback.

这至关重要。

It was so essential.

这在某种程度上有点像学术界的同行评审，但感觉可能更温和一些。

It's and in some ways, it's like a little bit like having peer review, in academia, but it felt it felt more gentle maybe.

没有那种‘审稿人三号’。

There's not like reviewer number three.

但没错，这个过程真的、真的极大地帮助了我的书。

But yeah, that process really, really deeply helped my book.

你刚才提到过，你是如何用艺术来描绘不仅情感，还有你与身体连接困难、难以在身体中感到踏实的经历。

You mentioned a few moments ago about the ways you would use art to depict not only feelings, but the difficulty that you had had in connecting with your body and feeling grounded in your body.

在我们看到的许多图像中，你的头就像一个气球，用一根绳子飘在空中。

And in many of the images we see your head kind of, like a balloon and it's, kind of floating off on a string.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，本质上，我认为在这些画面中，我试图传达一些东西。

So essentially, I mean, I think in those, I'm trying to communicate a few things.

我试图传达我们与身体如此脱节，以至于我们常常只是停留在理智层面，而没有真正扎根或融入我们的身体。

I'm trying to communicate the way that we are so disconnected from our bodies, that we're often just, like, really in this place of intellect and not actually grounded or dropped into our bodies.

我认为这是一种解离，也是一种未能完全与自己同在的状态。

And I think that that is a form of dissociation, and that's a form of, like, not fully being present, with ourselves.

这本书的副标题是：一个前硬汉的自白。

The subtitle of the book is, confessions of a former badass.

在书中，我们看到了当一个硬汉的负面影响。

And in the book, we see downsides of being a badass.

我认为许多人害怕，正是这种硬汉特质让我们在工作中取得成功。

I think many people are afraid that it's the badassery that is what makes us successful at our jobs.

如果我们不再做这样的自己，一切都会分崩离析。

And if we stop being that part of ourselves, it's just all gonna fall apart.

哦，我的意思是，这确实是一个需要认真面对的问题。

Oh, I mean, that is I think that's, like, something to reckon with.

对吧？

Right?

因为我认为，当我们做这类工作时，在做出这些重大改变之后，事情就不会再和以前一样了。

Because I think that when we do this kind of work, then after you make these big changes, things aren't gonna be the same.

而且，我不确定你是否知道，有一位哲学家，我想她是在耶鲁大学，叫劳里·保罗，她谈论过变革性体验，其中她提到的一个关键特征是：你无法预知改变之后自己会变成什么样。

And, I don't think you know, there's a philosopher, I think, I forget if she's at Yale, Laurie Paul, and she talks about transformative experiences and one of the defining characteristics that she talks about is how you can't know who you're going to be afterwards.

你无法预知自己是否会喜欢这种体验，因为她谈到的是人生中重大决策的问题，但我觉得这与治疗也很相似——你可能会走进去，然后出来时变得完全不同。

You can't know, what if you're going to like this experience or not because she kind of talks about this in terms of like making big decisions in your life but I think this is similar with therapy too is that you might go into this and then you may come out like totally, you know, not a totally different person.

你本质上还是你自己，但你所重视的东西可能会发生变化。

You're fundamentally yourself, but things you value may shift.

你面对世界的方式和你的存在状态也会改变。

The way that you show up and that you are in the world shifts.

所以我认为，我应该认可人们的恐惧，即这种情况确实可能发生。

And so I think that, like, I would wanna validate people's fears that that that may be the case.

而且，是的，我觉得这是一种辩证关系。

And and, also, yeah, like, I think it's a dialectic.

我觉得这是一种‘是的，而且’的关系，也许事物发生变化并不是坏事。

I think it's a, like, a yes and, and and maybe that that's not a bad thing for things to shift.

这本书分为若干章节。

The book is divided into chapters.

你可以一点一点地阅读。

You can take it bit by bit.