汉斯·范·艾亨，《灵体信仰的认识论》（劳特利奇，2023）

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今天，我与汉斯·范·埃肯博士一起讨论他的著作《灵性信仰的认识论》。

Today, I'm here with doctor Hans Van Ecken to talk his book, the epistemology of spirit beliefs.

这是一本很有趣的书，尤其与我有关，因为我对哲学感兴趣。

Now, this is an interesting book, and especially something which kind of relates to me because I'm interested in philosophy.

在我的博士研究中，我也研究过泛灵论和基督教。

And I've also worked in my PhD, I've also worked on animism and Christianity.

我也试图理解那种传统和本土的灵性存在。

And I've also tried to understand the, you know, the traditional and the indigenous spirit that is there.

所以我觉得这本书对我而言是一次有趣的阅读体验，希望我们能进行一场有趣而深入的讨论。

So I think this book has been an interesting read to me, and hopefully, we will have an interesting and engaging discussion.

那我直接请艾肯博士谈谈，您能向我们介绍一下自己吗？

So let me straight away go to doctor Eichen and, you know, ask him, can you tell us something about yourself?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

我是荷兰蒂尔堡大学的助理教授。

I'm assistant professor at Tilburg University in The Netherlands.

我原本来自比利时，先在那里求学，然后移居荷兰攻读博士学位，主要研究宗教哲学和宗教认识论，并涉及一些神学领域。

I'm originally from Belgium where I studied first and then I moved to The Netherlands to get my PhD, mainly working well in philosophy of religion and religious epistemology mainly with some traversaries into theology.

我做了大量关于宗教信仰的认知解释和进化解释的工作，并将其与认识论联系起来，探讨这些解释对宗教信仰的合理性或正当性有何影响。

I did a lot of work on like cognitive explanations of religious belief and evolutionary explanations as well, and I tied it into epistemology whether they have any implications on the rationality of religious belief or the justification thereof.

我还教授普通哲学课程，比如哲学史或当代哲学。

I also teach general philosophy classes like history of philosophy or contemporary philosophy.

是的。

Yeah.

很有趣。

Quite interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，显然，你是一位宗教哲学家，一直从事宗教的认知及其他相关方面的研究。

So, I mean, obviously, you are a philosopher of religion, so you have been working on cognition and all all of these other aspects of religion.

您的书特别涉及灵性，我相信是关于灵性的。

And your book specifically pertains to the spirit, I believe in spirit.

那么，您为什么特别要探讨灵性以及与灵性相关的内容呢？

So, I mean, why specifically delve on some on spirit and something which has to do with spirit?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

我对这个话题的兴趣是逐渐增长的。

Well, my interest in the topic sort of grow generally.

我之前的书和博士论文更多是关于对上帝的信仰，这也是宗教哲学的主要内容。

My previous book and my PhD was more on belief in God, where most philosophy of religion is about.

但后来我阅读了这些认知和进化论的解释，这些人谈论了很多关于上帝的内容，但也涉及其他方面。

But then I was reading these cognitive and evolutionary explanations, and these people, they talk a lot about god, but also about other stuff.

比如，他们中的许多人有人类学背景，研究了欧洲以外、西方世界以外的宗教传统，例如波利尼西亚或非洲的宗教。

Like, a lot of them have a background in anthropology, So they studied, like, religious traditions outside of Europe, outside of the Western world, also, like, in Polynesia or Africa.

在那里，关于神之外其他存在的信仰要突出得多，至少被广泛讨论得多。

And there, these other beliefs about other beings besides gods are much more prominent, at least at least much wider discussed.

所以他们的很多研究都集中在这些类型的信仰上。

So a lot of their work was really about those kind of beliefs.

我很早就注意到，他们所谈论的内容与我们宗教哲学家所讨论的有所不同，至少在某种程度上是这样。

And quite early on I noticed, well, they are talking about something different than what we philosophers of religion are are talking about, at least to some extent.

人们所相信、崇拜并献祭的这些其他实体，人们对其有一定理解，但显然它们不是神，而且人们通常非常坚决地认为这并非神，而是某种其他类型的存有。

These other entities that people believe in, that people worship, that people make offerings to, they have some idea what it's about, but it's clearly not God, but they're often very adamant this is not God, this is some other kind of being.

于是我们开始思考这个问题，回到认识论，当然，已有大量著作探讨了相信神的合理性或神存在的真理性，但关于认知科学家所讨论的这些其他信仰，却几乎无人问津。

So we started to think about that and then moving back to epistemology, of course there's all these books written about the rationality of believing God, by the truth of believing God, very but little written about these other kind of beliefs which the cognitive scientists are talking about.

因此，我开始思考：我们能对它们的地位说些什么呢？

So I started wondering, like, what can we say about their status?

它们也是理性的吗？

Are they rational as well?

它们是落后的吗？

Are they backward?

它们本质上是非理性的吗？

Are they, like, fundamentally irrational?

这些认知理论对此有何看法？

Do these cognitive theories weigh in on that?

于是我开始思考这个问题。

So I started thinking about that.

然后我开始写作，最终形成了这本书。

And then I started writing, which eventually became this book.

当然，事情从很早就变得复杂了。

Of course, we things got messy quite early on.

请注意，人们与这些灵体互动时，有着大量不同的信仰和实践，包括各种体验、不同的情境以及不同的文化传统。

Notice there are a lot of different beliefs and a lot of practices people engage in in conversation with these spirits, like different kind of experiences, different kind of settings, different kind of cultural traditions going on.

因此，我试图理解这些现象，并将这一领域区分为对这些灵体及另一个世界的各类体验。

So I tried to make sense of that, and then I sort of distinguished the field into separate experiences of these spirits all the counter world.

我注意到许多跨文化的相似性。

And I noticed a lot of cross cultural similarities.

那里有相似的实践、相似的体验，以及某种程度上相似的信仰。

There are similar practices, similar experiences, and also to some extent similarities and beliefs going on there.

是的。

Yes.

这确实是本书的重点。

Really been the focus of this book.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

实际上挺有意思的。

Quite interesting, actually.

你知道，既然这本书是关于灵体的，当你真正谈论灵体时，显然，在某些世界观或宗教中是存在的。

You know, when I mean, since this book is about spirit and when you are actually talking about spirit, now, obviously, in some of the let's just use the word worldview, right, or some of the religions that is there.

显然，他们在本体论分类上可能有这样的方面：他们可能没有将灵体单独归为一类，而是将其视为某种形式的神明，直接与人类沟通等等。

Obviously, there might be an aspect of their categorization of the ontology where, you know, they might not have this category of speed aside certain form of, they might see it as a form of, you know, God per se, you know, communicating to the human person and all of those things.

所以谈到灵性这个话题，你这里说的灵性到底是指什么？

So coming to the question of spirit is, so what do you really mean by spirit here?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

这里就涉及到定义了，有些人称其为灵性，其他人则可能称之为神，反之亦然。

There's here definitions come in, of course, what some people call a spirit, others might call a god, and vice versa.

因此，那里存在一些模糊性。

So there's some vagueness going on there.

但如果你仔细观察，大多数大型宗教传统都会做出某种区分。

But if you really look closely, most large religious traditions, they sort of make a distinction.

通常有一个存在位于顶端，可能只有一小部分存在配得上‘神’这个称号，而还有很多存在则地位较低，没有同样的力量，也不具备同样的完美性。

There's, like, one being usually at the top, maybe a small subset of being who, like, merit the title god, and there's a lot of beings, like, having a somewhat lesser status, not really having the same amount of powers, not really having the same kind of perfection.

因此，在大多数传统中，通常都会做出这种区分。

So there's often a distinction in most traditions.

比如，在基督教中，这一点最为明显。

Like, in Christianity, it's most obvious.

在最顶端是创造了万物的神，然后是天使。

There there's gods right at the top who created everything, then and there's the angels.

它们比人类更完美，但仍未达到神的层次。

They're more perfect than humans, but they're still not quite up to the level of god.

此外，还有一系列更低阶的灵体，比如恶魔。

And there's also, like, a host of even lower spiritual beings, demons.

在伊斯兰教中也有类似的情况：真主居于顶端，天使也是如此，还有精灵，这是一类明确不是神的超自然存在。

But you have similar things in Islam where you have God also at the top, then again angels as well, and the Jinn also a separate class of supernatural beings who are clearly not gods.

印度教中也有夜叉，佛教中也有阿修罗，以及史诗和宗教文献中提到的其他存在，但它们很少被称为神。

You have them in Hinduism as well, the Yaksha, in Buddhism as well, The Apasura, the other beings that are mentioned in the epics or in religious writings, but they are rarely given the title God.

因此，我认为这种区分在大多数文化中都是普遍适用的。

So I think you can apply this distinction across cultures mostly.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，在我阅读和接触灵体相关的内容时，从认识论角度来说，我很少遇到有人试图论证灵体本身是否存在。

I mean, in my readings and all coming to spirits, right, I haven't really come across many arguments also trying to argue about the reality or the existence of the spirit as such, epistemologically speaking, right?

所以你能给我们介绍一下，目前有哪些论点，或者你可能提到过的，从认识论角度论证灵体存在的观点吗？

And so can you kind of give us some idea of what are some of the arguments that exist today or, you know, or you might also have brought up that, you know, argues for epistemologically for the existence of spirit.

嗯。

Yeah.

有哪些论点呢？

What are some of the arguments that exist?

好的。

Okay.

这又是另一件事。

Well, this was another thing.

如果让我谈谈这本书的起源，我读过很多宗教哲学。

If I might take a slight teacher on the genesis of the book, like, read a lot of philosophy of religion.

关于上帝的存在或信仰上帝的合理性，有很多论证，这些论证让我思考：如果把‘上帝’换成‘灵体’，这些论证是否也适用于灵体呢？

There are a lot of arguments for the existence of God or for the rationality of belief in God, and some of them got me wondering, doesn't this apply to spirits too if you just change in God to spirits?

当然，在很多情况下，这是不适用的。

Like in many cases, of course, it does not.

比如传统的创世论论证，如宇宙论论证和本体论论证，它们得出的结论是完美存在或创造者，而灵体通常并不具备这些特征，因此这些论证无法用来支持对灵体的信仰。

Like the traditional arguments for a creator, like the cosmological argument, the ontological argument, these conclude to a perfect being or a creator, which spirits are generally not, so these arguments are not available to support belief in spirits.

但如果我们更贴近认识论的论证，专注于信仰本身，而非这些存在物的形而上学地位，那么这些论证更容易应用于灵体，尤其是关于宗教体验这一著名认识论论证。

But moving more closely to epistemological arguments, like sticking to belief, not so much like the metaphysical status of these beings, there's these arguments can more easily be applied to spirits, especially a prominent epistemological argument refers to religious experiences.

粗略地说，人们认为人们有过对神的体验。

In a crude form, people argue people have experiences of gods.

在正常情况下，我们应该信任这些体验。

Under normal circumstances, experiences ought to be trusted.

它们应当具有某种程度的可信性。

They merit some kind of trustworthiness.

因此，在没有削弱你经验的条件或怀疑理由的情况下，我们有理由相信上帝。

Therefore, we can be justified in belief of God in the absence of conditions that sort of undermine your experience, reasons to doubt your experience.

这让我想到，如果我们把对灵体的经验代入其中会怎样？

That got me thinking, what if we plug in experiences of spirits there?

它们是否也具有同样的正当性？

Do they merit the same justification status?

它们是否也能以同样的方式支持对灵体的信仰？

Can they also support spirit spirit beliefs in the same way?

经过思考，我逐渐得出结论：它们确实可以。

And by thinking about it, I sort of came to the conclusion they can.

世界各地的人都报告过这些经验。

People report these experiences the world over.

这些经验似乎并没有什么特别不妥之处。

There doesn't seem to be any particularly wrong with them.

许多普通人有过这些体验，而且也没有明显的削弱性条件。

A lot of normal people have these experiences, and there aren't obvious, like, undermining conditions.

我在书中提到了很多这样的例子。

I go to a lot of them in the book.

也许我们可以稍后讨论一下它们。

Maybe we can talk about them later.

当人们经历这些体验时，并没有理由怀疑他们出了什么问题。

And there isn't any reason to doubt that there's something going wrong with people when they have these experiences.

因此，你可以得出结论：基于这些体验的信仰也可以是合理的，因为它们与对上帝的体验之间似乎没有明显的差异。

Therefore, you could conclude that these beliefs based on those experiences can be justified as well, can be irrational because there doesn't seem to be any clear differences with experiences of God.

所以，如果这个论证在那里成立，它也应该适用于对灵体的体验。

So if the argument applies there, it should apply to experiences of spirits as well.

是的。

Yeah.

很有趣。

Interesting.

你知道吗，当我阅读你的作品时，随着我逐步深入，我发现你关于灵体信仰认识论的论证，正如我所理解的，依赖于关于上帝存在的论证所产生的效果。

It you know, when I when I kind of read your work and, you know, as I've as I go through it, your argument on the existence or the what the epistemology of spirit beliefs, as you call it, hinges on the very effect of the argument for the existence of God as I see it.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我的意思是，显然关于上帝存在的论证很有意思。

So, I mean, obviously, there are interesting arguments for the existence of God.

正如你所说，人们有这种对上帝的体验。

As you have been saying, I mean, that people have this experience of God.

从这一点出发，我们可以推断，其他人可能也经历过对灵体的体验。

And from there, we can kind of, you know, conclude that, you know, people, other people might have had this experience of spirit.

所以，当我们谈论体验时，显然我们会更深入地探讨这一点，但简而言之，我们该如何区分对上帝的体验和对灵体本身的体验呢？

So, this, when we are talking about experience, obviously, we'll go deeper into the, this one, but in short, how do we distinguish between experience of God and experience of spirit as such then?

嗯，只需注意人们在这些体验期间或之后所报告的内容。

Well, just by noting what people reports during or after these experiences.

有时人们会感觉是上帝在向他们显现，有时则感觉是其他东西。

Sometimes people get the sense that this is god's who is somehow revealing him to the subject, and sometimes you get the sense that this is something else.

可能是恶魔，可能是天使，也可能是非洲和加勒比地区传统中的洛阿。

Might be a demon, might be an angel, might be a loa in more Africa Afro Caribbean traditions.

它可能是一种东方传统中的另一种存在。

It might be another kind of being an eastern tradition.

所以我们关注人们所报告的内容，关注他们感受到的是什么，也就是这些体验的内容，然后你就能注意到人们体验中的这些差异。

So we sort of go what people reports, what it's what it seems to them, what we call, like, their the content of those experiences, then you can note these differences in what people experience.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，我一直在思考的一个问题是，如果你观察这种体验，为什么他们对这种灵性和上帝本身的体验会有所不同呢？

So, interestingly, one of the thing that I've been thinking about is if if you look at this experience, then why is there difference in their experience of this spirit and God as such?

因为我也在想，正如你所说，我们只是询问他们的体验。

Because the thing that I I'm also thinking about because as you have said, we just ask we ask them about their experience.

对吧？

Right?

然后他们就会讲述他们所经历的不同体验。

And then they tell they'll ask about the experience of the different experience that we have.

所以，谈到这种体验时，人们会根据他们所经历的体验来判断。

So, also coming to this experience, people judge by the kind of experience that they have.

因此，不同灵体或上帝的体验之间存在某种差异。

So there is an aspect of, you know, these difference in the kind of experience of different spirits or the God that we have.

显然，人类在某种意义上能够区分这类体验。

So obviously there's a sense that okay human human beings in that sense or human person can actually kind of differentiate this kind of experience.

所以，这种体验所依赖的基础是：人类有能力在他们的感知中区分这类体验，对吧？

So the kind of foundational the foundation that it kind of stands on is that okay human beings are capable that in their sense they are capable of differentiating this kind of experiences right?

我也在想，会不会是上帝赋予了所有这些不同的体验，而人们只是以这种方式区分这些体验？

So I was also thinking can it be can it be God who is giving all of these different experiences and people are kind of differentiating this experience in that way?

为什么不能是这样呢？

Why can't it be so?

我只是对这一点感到好奇。

I'm just curious about that one.

嗯，好问题。

Well, good question.

人们怎么知道自己正在经历什么呢？

Like, how do people know what they're experiencing?

也许他们搞错了。

Maybe they're, like, getting it wrong.

也许一直都是上帝，但他们却以为是某种灵体。

Maybe it was God all along, and they think it's a spirit.

但在一些明确的情况下，这种说法站不住脚，尤其是在基督教传统中，人们会经历非常邪恶的存在，比如恶魔。

But it seems in clear cases, this won't hold because, especially in Christian traditions, people have experiences of very thoroughly evil beings like demons.

而上帝通常被认为是全然仁慈、至善的。

And God generally considered to be omnibenevolent, all good.

他为什么要以邪恶的存在形象显现呢？

Like, why would he reveal himself as an evil being?

这说不通。

That doesn't really make sense.

而且在其他传统中，有时这种体验与我们对神的预期截然不同，因此称其为某种其他事物的体验是合理的。

And also, like in other traditions, sometimes the experience is profoundly different than what we would expect from a god that it makes sense to call it an experience of something else.

当然，人们可能仍然在误解。

Of course, it might be it might still be the case that people are mistaking.

但即使真的是上帝，为什么上帝要欺骗人呢？

But even if it is God, like, why would God deceive people?

这也与他的全善、至善属性不符。

This also doesn't chime well with his omnibenevolence, his all goodness.

所以，如果你认为上帝是全善的，这里也存在问题。

So we have an issue there as well, if you take God to be omnibenevolent, at least.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

有意思。

Interesting.

现在你也提到了一些关于上帝存在的论证。

Now you you also kind of talk about the arguments for the existence of God.

当然，有很多论点。

And, obviously, there are many arguments.

所以，我想问你一个问题，你觉得现在哪个关于上帝存在的论点是最有力、最站得住脚的？

So, I mean, a question to you, right, in the sense of, oh, what argument do you think is, like, the best argument that is there for the existence of God, which today stands strong still today?

嗯。

Yeah.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

我得好好想一想。

Well, I have to think of that for a while.

比如，有很多历史悠久、非常严谨且有力的论点支持上帝存在，比如本体论论证、宇宙论论证和设计论论证。

Like, there are sort of a number of venerable arguments with a long tradition with very powerful, very thorough arguments in favor of them, like the ontological argument, the cosmological argument, the design argument.

这些似乎是该领域三大主要论点，讨论最广泛，也最具说服力。

These seem to be like the three major arguments in the field, the most widely discussed and the most, well, the most persuasive as well.

我觉得我比较倾向于宇宙论论证，因为人们总是在追问终极起源的问题。

I think I sort of like the cosmological argument because there's always this question about an ultimate beginning.

这一切都从何而来？

Where does it all come from?

开始的时候有什么东西吗？

Is there something at the beginning?

开始的时候有某个存在吗？

Someone, some being at the beginning?

我认为这是一个显而易见的问题，而且这个问题显然会引导你走向论证上帝的存在。

I think that's a obvious question and a question that obviously puts you on the the way towards arguing for God.

我也可能在这方面是个局外人，我比较喜欢本体论论证，因为它非常深刻，当你读到它时，会发现它从上帝的定义出发推导出上帝的存在，非常深邃。

I also maybe I'm a bit of an outsider there, I kind of like the ontological argument because it's very profound and very, well, very deep to say when you read it, like arguing from the definition of God towards God's existence.

它具有很强的说服力和影响力。

It has a lot of force and a lot of traction.

它似乎非常……很难具体说清，但那里似乎有一种深刻的东西在起作用，至少对我来说，这使它具有说服力。

It seems to be very I just it's hard to put your finger on, but there seems to be like something profound going on there, which makes it persuasive for me at least.

有趣。

Interesting.

我的意思是，其他人也可能认为，关于上帝存在的各种论证并不是单一的绝对证明。

I mean, other people might also argue that, you know, that the arguments for the existence of God works in such a way that, you know, one argument is not all proof.

这些不同的论证共同构成了一个非常有力的论据，类似这样的情况。

They are all these different arguments makes a very strong case, something like that.

所以你也认为，这些不同的论证结合起来能形成更坚实、更强有力的推测吗？

So do you also think that the different arguments come together to make a much more robust and stronger guess?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

比如，如果你有一个令人信服的本体论论证和一个令人信服的宇宙论论证，那么你的论据就比只有一个成立时更有力。

Like, if you have a convincing ontological argument and a non and convincing cosmological argument, you have stronger case than if only one of them holds.

就像就像，

Like like,

来自宗教经验的论证通常也会得到其他更形而上的论证（如宇宙论或设计论）的支持。

an argument from religious experience also usually gets support from an other more metaphysical argument like a cosmological or a design argument.

所以这些论证往往是相互配合的。

So these tend to work together.

如果你通过多种途径得出上帝存在的结论，你的立场自然会更有力。

If you arrive towards the conclusion of got to various routes, you're in a stronger position, of course.

是的。

Yes.

现在你提到的另一个论点是关于普通感知的方面，即通过普通感知来理解或认识灵性信仰的认识论。

Now the other argument that you go about is the aspect of ordinary perception that the understanding of or this very epistemology of spirit beliefs through ordinary perception.

那么，这种普通感知的方面究竟指的是什么？它与灵性信仰有何关联？

Now what really is this aspect of ordinary perception is all about, and how is it related to spirit beliefs?

嗯。

Yeah.

我们在说‘普通感知’时要小心，因为‘普通’通常指的是对日常事物的感知，比如桌子、树木、人类。

We should be careful when we say ordinary perception because ordinary is often, like, applied to a perception of ordinary things, tables, trees, humans.

当然，灵体并不是普通事物，人们并不常感知到它们。

Of course, spirits aren't ordinary things, things people don't perceive often.

就像，它们是普通的。

Like, they're ordinary.

一些对灵体的体验更接近普通，因为它们类似于感官知觉，比如我们通过视觉、听觉，或许还有嗅觉所感知到的东西。

Some experiences of spirits are more like ordinary in the sense that they resemble sense perception, things we perceive to our sight, to our hearing, maybe perhaps to our smell.

就像，有些灵体体验就是这样。

Like, some experiences of spirits are like that.

有些人报告说看到了灵体。

Some people report seeing spirits.

我在书里举了一个例子，有人描述了看到伏都教灵体祖里的视觉体验。

I have this example in the book about someone reporting a visual experience of a voodoo spirit, a zuri.

有时候人们会听到灵体，就像真的听到你现在说话一样。

Sometimes people hear spirits, like something like, literally hearing, like, hear you right now.

有时候人们甚至能闻到灵体。

Sometimes people even smell spirits.

比如，有人报告说走进一座据称闹鬼的房屋时，突然闻到一股腐烂尸体的气味，表明有什么东西在那里。

Like, there are just reports of people walking through a haunted houses, allegedly haunted houses, and suddenly smelling like a decaying corpse all over a sudden, that something is there.

因此，这些体验与普通感知非常相似，因为我们通常通过五种感官来感知世界。

So these experience are very closely resemble ordinary perception in that sense that we usually perceive the world through our five senses.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

很有趣。

Interesting.

你提到的另一个方面是通灵术及其与灵体信仰认识论的关系。

The another thing that you also go into is the aspect of mediumship and its relation to, you know, the epistemology of spirit beliefs.

那么，你对通灵术是如何理解的？它与灵体信仰有何关联？

And so how what is your understanding on mediumship, and how does it relate to spirit beliefs?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

通灵现象在全球各地都很普遍。

Mediumship, they're all over the world again.

人们报告说，能听到灵魂跟他们说话。

People report, like, hearing spirits talk to them.

有时，正如我之前提到的，就像我现在听到你说话一样，但通常更微妙，人们会以某种方式在脑海中接收到信息。

Sometimes, as I mentioned before, this is like, as I'm hearing you speak to me right now, but often it's more subtle that people get messages in their mind somehow.

也许你会产生一种深刻的想法，觉得似乎有某种不同的声音在被你感知，但你并没有像现在听到我说话那样真正听到它。

Maybe you get a deep thought of maybe they have some kind of different voice they're registering somehow, but they're not hearing it as I'm hearing you right now.

通灵常被用于占卜，比如预知未来、决定何时播种等等。

They are often used, like, for divination purposes, to know the future, to know when to plant your crops, and so on and so on.

因此，他们以某种方式与灵魂进行交流，而人们通常报告说，这是通过灵魂进入他们的思想来实现的。

So they enter in somehow in conversation with a spirit, and this usually happens, at least people report it happens by a spirit entering their minds.

他们 somehow 被允许进入人们的主观内心，从而传递信息。

They're somehow allowed access to the inside of people's subjectivity, and thereby they transverse communications.

正如我之前所说，这些信息可能涉及各种各样的主题。

These can be about very various topics as I mentioned before.

所以有时候这些声音是不请自来的。

So sometimes this is unwanted.

人们会听到他们不想要的声音，想摆脱它们，但在许多传统中，人们反而主动寻求这种体验。

People hear voices that they don't want, they wanna get rid of, but in many traditions, it's just something people actually seek out.

他们希望从这些灵体那里获得关于各种主题的建议。

They want advice from these spirits on various topics.

因此，拥有这种通灵能力的人备受尊敬，常常被请教。

So people who have this mediumship abilities, they are high respected, and they are often consulted.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

很有趣。

Interesting.

现在，再次提到，你接下来讨论的是位置这一方面。

Now, again, the next aspect that you talk about is the aspect of position.

对吧？

Right?

而且，显然你谈到了灵体的位置，以及它如何与灵性信仰等相关。

And, obviously, you talk about the position by spirits and how it, you know, relates to spirit beliefs and all.

你能再深入一点谈谈这个吗？

Can you can you dig a little bit more deeper on that one?

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

这实际上是灵体体验与神灵体验显著不同的地方。

This is really somewhere where spirit experiences stand out from experiences of god.

据我所知，人们很少报告被神灵附体，但确实经常有人报告被灵体附体。

To my knowledge, people don't report getting possessed by god, at least not often, at least, but people do report getting possessed by spirits.

比如，什么是附身？

Like, what is possession?

这远远超出了视觉感知或通灵体验。

It goes much further than, like, a visual perception or a mediumship experience.

当一个灵体或在某些情况下是恶魔控制了你整个身体功能时，就是附身。

It's when a spirit or a demon in some cases takes over your whole functioning.

它控制了你的身体。

It takes over your body.

它控制了你的声音。

It takes over your voice.

它甚至在某种程度上控制了你的思想。

It can even take over your mind to some extent.

很多时候，人们不记得这些附身事件，也无法控制它们。

Very often people don't remember these possession episodes or don't have any control over them.

这是发生在他们身上的事，他们完全失去了对自己功能的所有权和控制权。

It's something that happens to them, and they lose all ownership or all control over their functions.

所以，恶魔或灵体真正掌控了他们，实实在在地附身了。

So the demon or the spirit really takes hold of them, possesses them literally.

这种现象在全球各地都会出现。

You get this again the world over.

在基督教传统中，人们会报告恶魔附身的情况。

In Christian traditions, people report demonic possession.

比如，YouTube 上有很多驱魔的视频。

There are a lot of YouTube videos of exorcisms, for example.

当然，也有一些著名的电影，比如威廉·弗莱德金的《驱魔人》。

There's also some famous movies, of course, like The Exorcist by William Friedkin.

在其他传统中，当灵体完全掌控一个人时，并不总是被视为坏事。

And in other traditions, it's not always seen as a bad thing when a spirit takes over your whole functioning.

人们有时会主动寻求这种体验，尤其是在伏都教、古巴的圣特里亚，以及一些印度教传统中，人们会邀请灵体附身，并为各种目的暂时容纳它们。

People sometimes seek it out, especially in voodoo traditions, Santeria in Cuba, but also like in some Hindu traditions where people like invite spirits into like and they host them for some time for various purposes.

这些灵体体验在现象学上截然不同。

These are very different in phenomenology, these spirit experiences.

他们非常显眼，行为举止完全不同，说话声音也变了，有时嘴里会冒出泡沫，开始颤抖，并表现出各种怪异的行为。

They are very noticeable, people behave differently, they speak with a different voice, sometimes they go like they have foam on their mouth, they start shaking and engage in all sort of erratic behavior.

所以他们变成了另一个人。

So they become different persons.

从某种意义上说，他们变成了那些灵体。

In a sense, they become the spirits.

一种非常奇怪的体验。

Very strange kind of experience.

这非常不同，但绝对是一种无法忽视的现象，从认识论的角度来看，我认为我们也需要去理解它。

It's very different, but very something you can't really ignore, something you need to make sense of also from epistemology, in my view.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

很有趣。

Interesting.

最后一个是我个人在工作中也遇到过的，特尔维，那就是万物有灵论。

The last one is something which I I I have also personally in my work, Telvi, that is animism.

所以我想问问你关于这个的看法。

And so I wanted to ask you about this.

对吧？

Right?

那么，你是如何看待万物有灵论的？它和灵体信仰有什么关系？

So how how do you how how are you looking at animism here, and how does it relate to spirit belief?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我采取的思路和之前看待知觉体验、遇见船只的体验以及附体体验时是一样的。

I take a similar line of reasoning as I did with, like, perception like experiences, meeting ship experiences, and possession experiences.

就像人们也会报告他们经历万物有灵的现象，正如你所称的那样。

Like, people report experiences of animism, as you call it as well.

他们感觉大自然是有生命的，或者某棵树、甚至某块石头都有灵魂。

They sort of feel like nature is alive or some tree or even some stone is ensouled.

我们有来自多位人类学家的报告，人们与石头对话，与植物互动，或在某些传统中向植物或树木献祭。

We have, like, reports from various anthropologists, people talking to stones, people engaging into some kind of interaction with plants, people making offerings to plants or trees in some traditions.

因此，也存在泛灵论的体验。

So there are experiences of animism as well.

有些人甚至走得更远，尤其是在使用某些致幻物质后，他们会与我们通常认为没有生命的事物进行互动。

Some even go much further, especially when people induce certain psychedelic substances, and they engage in mutual interaction with things we normally see as not alive.

因此，也存在泛灵论的体验。

So there are experiences of animism as well.

按照同样的逻辑，为什么不直接相信这些体验，视其为可信，并看看是否有任何证据能推翻它们呢？

And following the same logic, like, why not take them at face value, see them as trustworthy, and see if there's something that undermines them?

最终结论是，实际上并没有多少证据能推翻它们。

In the end concluding, there really isn't much that undermines them.

是的。

Yes.

正如我之前所说，你对灵性信仰的认识论依赖于上帝的存在。

Now as I've said before, your kind of epistemology of spirit beliefs hinges on the existence of god.

所以你清楚地看到这一点了吗？

So do do you see do you see that clearly.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

有一种观点认为，如果上帝存在，那么由于各种原因，灵体存在的可能性更大。

Well, there is an argument that if god exists, it's more likely that spirits exist for various reasons.

上帝希望让人们认识祂。

God wants to make himself known.

如果你接受一个超自然存在，那么可能还有更多。

If you have one supernatural being, there might be more.

但类似的经验也可以独立存在。

But, like, experiences can also stand on their own.

也许有些人不相信上帝，或者不知道如何理解这一点，或者持不可知论，但他们仍然可能经历某种灵体的存在，并认为这种体验是可信的，因此从此以后他们相信体验，而不对上帝做出判断。

Maybe people don't believe in God or don't know how to make sense of that or agnostic, but they can still have some kind of experience of a spirit and conclude, well, this experience is trustworthy, so I'll believe in experience from now without making a judgment about God.

这也是有可能的。

That's possible as well.

是的。

Yes.

所以在这个思路下，正如你所说，人们可能有过某种体验，然后经历了灵体，但他们并没有对上帝做出判断。

So in that line, right, in that line of thought, I mean, as you have said, people might have had experience, but then experience a spirit, and they are not making a judgment about God.

所以这正是我在思考的，从认识论的角度来看，对吧？

So this is where I'm kind of thinking about as to, okay, epistemologically speaking, right?

也就是说，如果没有对上帝存在的坚实理解或论证，仅仅是一个假设性的说法，对吧？

That okay, if there is no robust understanding or argument for the existence of God, just a hypothetical statement, right?

那么，如果没有上帝，仅从假设的角度来看，对这种灵体的信仰或认识论信念是否仍然能站得住脚或依然存在？

Then will the belief or the epistemological belief in this spirit still stand strong or still exist if there's no God per se as such hypothetically?

我认为，人们在不承认神存在的情况下却肯定灵体存在的情况是非常罕见的。

I think it's obviously very rare that people affirm the existence of spirits without the affirming the existence of gods.

我几乎没有看到这方面的证据。

I've seen very little evidence for that.

在一些新异教传统中，人们可能会与精灵或其他实体互动，却不对神做出任何判断。

It might be in some neo pagan traditions where people, like, address fairies or some entities without making a call about god.

这至少在概念上是可能的，而且在某些情况下可能确实存在。

It seems like at least conceptually possible, and it might be actually possible in some cases.

但在任何主要的宗教传统中，你都很少看到这种情况。

But you don't really see it in any of the larger religious traditions.

通常，人们两者都信。

Usually, people have both.

当他们相信精灵时，也会相信神。

When they believe in spirits, they believe in God as well.

话虽如此，有些传统中，神的角色相对边缘化——用不太恰当的说法来说。

Having said that, there are traditions where, like, gods has a sort of marginal role, to use bad words.

比如在某些非洲传统中，人们相信神创造了世界，但神在人们的生活中并不扮演重要角色。

Like, in certain African traditions, they believe in god who perhaps created the world, but it doesn't have a large role in people's lives.

精灵要重要得多。

Spirits are much more important.

人们向精灵献祭，人们崇拜精灵。

And spirits are those people make offerings to, and spirits are those that people worship.

而对上帝，他们只是承认其存在，但并没有太多实际的行动。

Whereas God, they sort of affirm his existence but don't really do much with it.

因此，在某种意义上，对精灵的信仰对某些人来说可能比相信上帝更重要。

So in that sense, spirit beliefs can be more important to some people than believing God.

当然，这种情况在基督教或伊斯兰教中并不成立。

Of course, this isn't the case in Christianity or Islam.

有趣。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我想跟你讲讲我在研究泛灵论过程中的一些经历，对吧。

So I want to kind of tell you something about what I've came through through during my work, right, in animism.

我想让你对此做个分析或说说你的看法，因为我觉得这会很有趣。

And I want you to make a kind of, you know, analysis or say something about this, because I think this will be interesting.

所以，在我研究的阿农加纳加兰地区的前基督教宗教——万物有灵论中，我观察到的一点是，他们根本没有‘上帝’这个概念。

So the pre Christian religion, the animism that I kind of studied among the Aunagas Nagaland, one thing that I observed was that they do not have an idea of God per se.

我还观察到另一点，那就是他们甚至没有‘创造’这个概念。

And the second thing also that I also observed was that they do not even have this idea of creation.

对他们来说，显然他们相信自己是从地里冒出来的。

For them, obviously, they believe that they emerged, right, they emerged out of the ground.

那么，这种 emergence 是如何发生的呢？他们认为这是一种与灵体相关的形式。

So now how does that emergence happens is that they believe it's a it's a form of is a it's a it's a something like where spirits, right?

不同的灵体汇聚在一起，共同形成了人类。

Different spirits come together combined to form this human being.

因此，他们相信，比如一个人，男性有六个灵，女性有五个灵，类似这样。

So they believe that you know a person like a a human person, a man has six spirit and a woman has five spirits like that.

这些灵体与现实的不同部分相联系。

Now, these spirits are attached to different parts of the reality.

一个灵魂会附着于这个人所居住的土地。

One spirit will be attached to the land that person is living.

一个灵魂会附着于一个天体。

One spirit will be attached to a celestial body.

不同的灵魂与他们所见所理解的现实各个层面相连。

Know, different spirits, at age to the different parts of the reality that they see and understand all of those aspects.

所以，他们的观念是：没有神的存在，没有创世的概念，只有灵魂存在，灵魂汇聚在一起形成人类，人类正是通过这种方式与灵魂互动和生活。

So the idea is that there is no existence of God, there's no existence of no concept of creation, and that, you know, there's only the spirits exist and spirits come together to form human beings, and that is how human beings interact and live with the spirit.

对此，你有什么看法？

So what can you say something about that?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

很有趣。

Interesting.