马克·伯曼，《自然与心灵：自然如何改善认知、身体和社会福祉的科学》（西蒙与舒斯特出版社，2025年）

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是马歇尔·波。

This is Marshall Poe.

我是新书网络的创始人兼主编。

I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network.

如果你正在收听这个节目，那你一定知道新书网络是全球最大的学术播客网络。

And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world.

我们拥有两百万的全球听众。

We reach a worldwide audience of 2,000,000 people.

你可能已经有一个播客，或者正在考虑创建一个播客。

You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast.

正如你所知，这会遇到一些挑战。

As you probably know, there are challenges.

基本上分为两类。

Basically, of two kinds.

一是技术问题。

One is technical.

你需要掌握一些知识，才能制作和发布你的播客。

There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed.

第二个问题是，也是最大的难题，你需要吸引听众。

And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience.

在播客领域，建立听众群体是当今最难做到的事情。

Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today.

请记住，我们在NBN推出了一项名为NBN Productions的服务。

Put this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions.

我们的工作是帮助你创建、制作、发布播客，并托管你的播客。

What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast.

最重要的是，我们会将你的播客分发给NBN的听众群体。

Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience.

我们已经多次为许多学术播客提供过这项服务，我们很乐意帮助你。

We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you.

如果您有兴趣与我们讨论我们如何帮助您制作播客，请联系我们。

If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us.

请前往新书网络的首页，您会看到指向NBN制作的链接。

Just go to the front page of the New Books Network, and you will see a link to NBN productions.

点击它，填写表格，我们可以聊聊。

Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk.

欢迎来到新书网络。

Welcome to the New Books Network.

欢迎来到范勒尔研究所的理念系列。

Welcome to the Van Leer Institute series on ideas.

我是雷内·加芬克尔。

I'm Renee Garfinkel.

今天，我们将探讨自然世界与人类思维之间深刻而常常出人意料的关系。

Today, we're exploring the deep and often surprising relationship between the natural world and the human mind.

树木、公园，甚至短暂的户外时光，如何能提升我们的思维能力、改善情绪并塑造我们的自我。

How trees, parks, and even brief moments outdoors can sharpen our thinking, improve our mood, and shape who we are.

我的嘉宾是博士。

My guest is Doctor.

马克·伯曼博士，一位认知神经科学家，他的开创性研究揭示了接触自然——从森林小径到城市绿色屋顶——如何恢复我们的注意力、提升创造力，甚至减少犯罪。

Mark Berman, a cognitive neuroscientist whose groundbreaking research reveals how contact with nature, from forest trails to urban green roofs, can restore our attention, boost creativity, and even reduce crime.

他的工作连接了心理学、城市设计和环境科学，为城市提供了一种蓝图：这些城市不仅容纳我们，更能治愈我们。

His work bridges psychology, urban design, and environmental science, offering a blueprint for cities that don't just house us, but heal us.

伯曼博士是芝加哥大学心理学教授、心理学系主任，以及环境神经科学实验室主任。

Doctor Berman is professor of psychology, chair of the department of psychology, and director of the environmental neuroscience laboratory at the University of Chicago.

他的著作《自然与心灵》促使我们重新思考，在一个日益人工化的世界中，作为人类意味着什么，以及重新与自然建立联系可能是我们能做的最现代的事。

His book, Nature and the Mind, asks us to rethink what it means to be human in an increasingly artificial world and how reconnecting with nature might be the most modern thing we can do.

马克·伯曼，欢迎来到本节目。

Mark Berman, welcome to the show.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

马克，是什么最初让你怀疑在自然中度过时光真的能改变我们大脑的功能？

Mark, what first led you to suspect that spending time in nature could actually change the way our brains function?

这是个好问题。

It's a it's a good question.

我一直以来对环境、各种环境和情境都比较敏感。

I've always been somebody who's been pretty kinda sensitive to the environment, to different kinds of environments and situations.

我一直喜欢大自然，但也不是那种特别狂热的自然爱好者之类的。

And I always liked nature, but I wasn't, like, you know, a huge nature lover or anything like that.

我母亲那边的祖母有个大农场，前院有很多高大的云杉树，这一直让我觉得很有趣。

My grandmother on my mom's side had kind of a big farm with a lot of land and these big spruce trees in the front yard, and that always kind of was very interesting to me.

但我直到研究生时上了一门史蒂夫·卡普兰教授的课，才开始认真思考这个问题。

But I didn't really think very seriously about it until I took a class in graduate school with professor Steve Kaplan.

他介绍了注意力恢复理论，简称ART，说的是人可以通过接触不同的环境来提升注意力，这会带来许多有趣的应用，比如帮助人们更好地实现目标、减少冲动，甚至增强自我控制力。

And he introduced this idea of attention restoration theory or art as he called it, where you could interact with different environments and improve our attention, which would then have a lot of interesting applications to helping people to meet their goals better, helping people, to be less impulsive, and then maybe even helping people to have more self control.

我觉得这个想法太有趣了，于是想通过一些不同的实验来验证它。

And I just thought that was such an interesting idea, and I I kinda wanted to try to test it doing some different kind of experiments.

那我们先来明确一些定义。

Well, let's let's get some definitions down.

你经常把自然描述为具有恢复作用的。

You you often describe nature as restorative.

从科学角度来说，这指的是什么？

What does that mean in scientific terms?

是的。

Yeah.

在深入之前，我想先谈谈两种注意力的重要性。

And and maybe, before I get there, I'll talk about the importance of kind of two kinds of attention.

在注意力恢复理论中，我们谈到人类有两种注意力。

So in attention restoration theory, we talk about humans having two kinds of attention.

一种注意力被称为定向注意力，这种注意力在工作或学习时经常使用，即使面对的不是最令人兴奋或有趣的事情，你也要决定关注什么。

So one kind of attention is called directed attention, and that's the kind of attention that we use a lot at work or at school where you're deciding what to pay attention to even if it's not the most exciting or interesting thing.

人们认为，我们只能维持定向注意力一段时间，之后就会出现精神疲劳，无法再集中注意力。

And it's thought that we can only sort of direct our attention for so long before we become mentally fatigued and you can't really focus anymore.

我们都曾有过这种感觉，比如在下午三点或四点，经过漫长的一天学习或工作后，你可能会呆呆地盯着电脑屏幕，很难集中精神。

And we've all kind of had that sensation, you know, at around three or 04:00 in the afternoon after a long school day or workday where you might be just kinda staring at the computer screen and it's very hard for you to focus.

我们称之为定向注意力疲劳状态，这时候休息一下是很好的时机。

And we call that a directed attention fatigue state, and that's a good time to take a break.

我们还谈到另一种注意力，称为非自愿注意力，这是一种被环境中有趣刺激自动吸引的注意力。

There's another kind of attention that we talk about that's called involuntary attention, And that's the kind of attention that's automatically captured by interesting stimulation in the environment.

明亮的灯光、响亮的声音这些事物会自动吸引我们的注意力，而我们对此几乎没有控制力。

The bright lights, loud noises, those things automatically capture our attention, and we don't really have any control over it.

人们认为，这种非自愿注意力不太容易产生疲劳或耗竭。

And it's thought that this involuntary attention is less susceptible to fatigue or depletion.

因此，你很少听到人们说：‘我再也看不了那个瀑布了。’

So you don't often hear people say, oh, I can't look at that waterfall anymore.

它太美了。

It's just too beautiful.

它让我特别累。

It's making me really tired.

或者：‘我再也看不了这部特别有趣的电影了。'

Or, oh, I can't watch this really interesting movie anymore.

这太有趣了。

It's so interesting.

它让我感到疲惫。

It's tiring me out.

我得关掉它。

I have to shut it off.

但注意力恢复理论的核心思想是，如果你能找到那些不会对定向注意力造成太多负担，同时又能通过有趣的刺激激活非自愿注意力的环境，你就能够恢复或补充这种宝贵的方向性注意力资源。

But the idea behind attention restoration theory is that if you can find environments that don't place a lot of demands on directed attention while simultaneously having interesting stimulation to activate the involuntary attention, you could restore or replenish this precious directed attention resource.

我们认为，许多自然环境恰好符合这一标准：既不会对定向注意力造成太大负担，又能提供有趣的刺激来激活非自愿注意力。

And we think that many natural environments kinda meet this criteria of not placing a lot of demand on directed attention while simultaneously having interesting stimulation to activate the involuntary attention.

因此，当我们谈论恢复时，我们指的是恢复这种宝贵的方向性注意力资源——这种资源在某种程度上就像一种心理能量，是我们人类能够主动控制去关注事物的能力。

And so when we talk about restoration, we're talking about restoring this precious directed attention resource, this resource that sort of in some ways is like a mental energy or what we as humans can control to pay attention to.

我们的这种能力是有限的，因此我们认为，与自然互动可以恢复或补充我们引导注意力的能力。

We're we're kinda limited in that ability, and so we think interacting with nature can kinda restore or replenish our ability to direct attention.

所以，鉴于如今关于人类注意力容量下降的大量讨论，你是在说，我们真正担忧的是定向注意力的下降，还是因为太多事物在拉扯那种容易被捕捉的非自愿注意力？

So with all the writing about concerns about our declining capacity for attention these days, are you saying that what we're worried about is the declining capacity for directed attention or too much distractibility, too many things pulling on the other kind of attention that's easily captured?

我认为这是同一枚硬币的两面。

I think it's sort of two sides in the same coin.

所以，毫无疑问，我觉得现在人类正处于更严重的定向注意力疲劳状态，因为有太多种类的刺激在争夺我们的注意力。

So, definitely, I feel like humans now are under more of a directed attention fatigue state because there are just so many kinds of stimulation that are vying for our attention.

很多活动，比如社交媒体、上网或在你喜欢的流媒体服务上观看节目，这些活动感觉很放松，但实际上可能正在进一步消耗我们的定向注意力。

And a lot of the activities, you know, like social media or surfing the web or streaming something on your favorite streaming service, streaming your favorite show, a lot of those activities feel restful, but they're actually potentially depleting depleting more of directed attention.

所以这是一种问题。

So that's one kind of problem.

另一种问题是，我还没有解释过，但我们认为，为了让环境具有恢复作用，能够激活非自愿注意力的刺激必须是我们所说的‘柔和的迷人’。

The other kind of problem, I I haven't explained this yet, but we think the kind of stimulation that activates, involuntary attention in order for the environment to be restorative needs to be what we call softly fascinating.

那么，什么是‘柔和的迷人’呢？

So what do I mean by softly fascinating?

例如，当你看着美丽的瀑布时，它会吸引你的非自愿注意力。

So for example, when you look at the beautiful waterfall, it captures your involuntary attention.

它非常有趣。

It's very interesting.

但当你看着那美丽的瀑布时，你仍然可以稍微走神，想想其他事情。

But you can still kinda mind wander and think about other things when you look at that beautiful waterfall.

它并不会完全占据你所有的注意力资源。

It doesn't sort of capture all of your attentional resources.

如果大脑在休息，那它就是在休息。

If your brain is resting It's resting.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我的意思是，它并不是在睡觉，而是处于一种适度参与的状态。

I mean, it's not it's not sleeping, but it's it's, kind of, like, moderately engaged.

而如果你在时代广场，那里也同样充满有趣的刺激。

Whereas if you're in Times Square, that's also really interesting.

有很多有趣的刺激会吸引你的非自愿注意力，但它们是以一种强烈且全面的方式做到的。

Lots of interesting stimulation to capture your involuntary attention, but it kinda does so in a harsh and all consuming way.

当你在时代广场时，很难走神或思考其他事情。

It's very hard to kinda mind wander or think about anything else when you're in Times Square.

因此，我们认为这种有助于恢复定向注意力的刺激应该是柔和而迷人的。

So we think that kind of stimulation to restore directed attention needs to be softly fascinating.

我认为，我们当今现代生活中的许多刺激，比如社交媒体、浏览网页、流媒体服务，都更偏向于强烈吸引人而非柔和迷人。

And I would say that a lot of our stimulation in current modern times like social media, surfing a web, streaming services, they're more harshly fascinating than softly fascinating.

所以，我不但认为这些活动不是中性的，反而认为它们可能进一步耗尽了我们的定向注意力。

So not only do I not think that they're neutral activities, I think they actually might be further depleting our directed attention.

因此，我认为所有这些因素都在让我们——至少在现代社会中——注意力持续时间变短，定向注意力的能力也减弱。

So I think all of those things are kind of causing us, at least in modern society, to kind of have shorter attention span than a more limited ability to direct attention.

还有其他研究显示，例如，推特上的热门话题标签，过去最热门的能持续四十八小时。

And there's been other research that's shown that, for example, like, Twitter hashtags, you know, they used to be the top ones used to last for forty eight hours.

而现在，最热门的话题通常只能维持二十小时。

Now the top one more last for twenty hours.

票房电影，曾经的大片。

Box office movies that were blockbusters.

它们曾经能大火六个月。

They used to be blockbusters for six months.

现在它们只能称为三个月的爆款，这所有都表明我们的注意力持续时间更短了。

Now they're only blockbusters for three months, which all kind of suggests that our attention span is shorter.

我们就是无法像以前那样集中注意力。

We just can't can't focus as well.

我认为，据我所知，当我们和朋友或家人交谈时，很多人都觉得很难集中注意力。

And I think anecdotally, a lot of us know that it's hard, you know, when talking to friends or family.

很多人已经不像以前那样有能力专注了。

A lot of people just don't have the ability to pay as much attention anymore as they as they used to.

通常，当我们谈论注意力或其他认知功能时，我们会认为这些都只发生在大脑中，或者至少是心智中。

And, normally, when we talk about things like attention or other cognitive functions, we think of it all as being in the brain or at least the mind.

但请告诉我们，你的研究如何与已知的压力激素和全身性炎症联系起来？

But tell us about how your work connects to what's known about stress hormones and inflame inflammation more widespread within the body?

我的意思是，大脑和身体是一体的。

Well, I mean, the, you know, the brain and body are one.

所以，任何对身体有益的事情，对大脑也有益。

So anything that's gonna be good for the body is gonna be good for the brain.

而且，我觉得，我所谈论的这些关于注意力的研究虽然关乎大脑，但有趣的是，实际上改变你的物理环境确实会影响你的大脑。

And, you know, I do think, you know, all of this attentional, research that I'm talking about is is about the brain, but it's kind of interesting that actually putting yourself in a different physical environment is is affecting your your brain.

这实际上是改变了你的物理位置，并让你接触到不同的感官刺激。

It's actually changing your physical location and, being exposed to different physical stimulation.

因此，我们认为与自然互动之所以具有柔和的吸引力，部分原因在于自然中的模式——自然拥有更多的分形结构。

So, you know, one of the reasons why we think interacting with nature is softly fascinating has to do with the patterns in nature, that nature has more fractals.

分形是一种在不同尺度上都能看到的重复模式。

So so fractals are, kind of repetitive patterns that you can see at different scale.

比如，想象一片雪花，它具有特定的形状。

So if you imagine, like, a snowflake, a snowflake has a characteristic shape.

如果你把这片雪花放在显微镜下放大，你会看到相似的形状。

If you put that snowflake under a microscope and zoomed in, you'd see kind of the same shape.

如果你再继续放大，依然会看到相似的形状。

And if you zoomed in even more, you'd see kind of the same shape.

这表明，当你观察这片雪花时，无论你从哪个空间尺度去看，它都是一样的。

And what that suggests is that looking at that snowflake, it doesn't matter what spatial scale you look at.

它的形状差不多。

It's kinda got the same shape.

所以这被称为无尺度刺激或分形刺激。

So that's called a scale free stimulus or a fractal stimulus.

自然界充满了这种分形的无尺度刺激，相比我们建造的、充满直线的环境，它可能更容易被我们的大脑处理。

And nature is filled with this kind of fractal scale free stimulation, which actually might be easier for our brains to process compared to the built environment that we built that had a lot of straight lines.

它不是无尺度的。

It's not scale free.

它包含大量我们需要识别的物体，这可能导致定向注意力的耗竭。

It's got a lot of objects that we kinda need to identify, which might be causing this, this depletion of directed attention.

因此，这一切不仅适用于身处自然环境，比如公园、森林或海边，甚至只是从窗户眺望树木，也能产生可测量的影响，正如你所指出的。

So all this applies not only to being in a natural environment, a park or a forest or a seaside, but even just looking at trees from a window can make a measurable difference, as you point out.

那观看以自然为主题的绘画，比如风景画或单独的花卉呢？

What about looking at art that features nature, art that features landscape or even individual flowers?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的问题。

It's a it's a great question.

我认为，这种效果可以说是分步骤起作用的。

And I think the the effect you can kind of, sort of kinda works in steps.

我们发现，当人们真正走进大自然并亲身接触自然时，对直接注意力的恢复效果最强，因为你能看到、听到、闻到自然的景象，甚至能感受到与真实自然接触时的触觉刺激。

So we we find that the strongest results are for your direct attention are if you can actually go out into real nature and interact with real nature because you'll get the sights, the sounds, the smells, even the tactile stimulation in being in real nature.

但人们发现，仅仅通过窗户眺望自然景观，也能产生治愈效果和心理健康益处。

But, people have found positive results just looking at a view of nature out of a window, that had it's had both healing effects and, mental health benefits.

在我们的实验室中，即使只是观看自然图片或聆听自然声音，也能带来益处。

We find in our lab that even looking at pictures of nature or listening to nature sounds can have benefits.

其他人发现，即使在室内摆放的是假植物，也能产生积极影响。

Other people have found that having plants indoors, even if they're fake plants, can have benefits.

因此，这些效果虽然不如置身真实自然那么强烈，但非常有希望的是，许多人在现实中难以轻易接触自然，而这些自然模拟方式仍能带来部分益处。

So a lot of those effects are not as strong as being in real nature, but it's very promising that, you know, a lot of people don't have easy access to nature, unfortunately, that you can get some of these effects from these simulations of nature.

这向我们暗示了我刚才提到的一点：我们的大脑处理自然的分形刺激或自然的曲线结构时，会产生这些益处，而这种机制同样适用于艺术。

And and what that kinda suggests to us is kind of what I talked about a moment ago that there's something about how our brain processes the fractal stimulation of nature or the curved edge structure of nature that produces these benefits, and that would apply also to art.

所以，你知道，不同类型的藝術，比如自然風景畫或模仿自然模式的作品，也可能帶來一些類似的益處。

So, you know, different kind of art that maybe was natural landscapes or maybe that mimic the patterns of nature, could yield some of these same benefits.

事實上，我們發現，即使你把一個自然場景打亂，讓它保留了原來場景中所有的邊緣和線條，但你卻無法辨認出它究竟是什麼。

In fact, we found that, even if you take a nature scene and you scramble it, so it's got all the same edges and lines that were in the scene, but you can't really tell what it is.

它看起來有點像傑克遜·波洛克的畫作，而觀看這類圖像會讓人比觀看由大量直線構成的抽象藝術時，更傾向於對生命旅程中的精神層面進行反思，這再次表明，模仿自然的這些模式——曲線邊緣和分形特徵——可能讓大腦處理得更流暢，從而帶來許多益處。

It kinda looks like a Jackson Pollock painting that viewing those kind of images can cause people to think more reflective thoughts about spirituality in their life journey compared to abstract looking art that has a bunch of straight lines, which again suggests that there's something about mimicking these patterns of nature, these curved edges and this frackleness that our brains might process more fluently that might lead to a lot of these, benefits.

因此，這些似乎是非常微妙但極其強大的效應：觀看具有正確分形形狀的抽象畫作，會激發人們對精神層面的思考。

So these seem to be very subtle but very powerful effects that looking at an abstract painting that has the right, fractal shape encourages thoughts of spirituality.

你如何解釋這一點？

How do you explain that?

嗯，這很複雜。

Well, it's it's complicated.

我們還沒有全部的答案。

We we don't have all the answers yet.

而且這也可能不是萬能藥。

And it also might not be like a panacea.

所以你可能会想，好吧。

So you might be thinking, well, okay.

让我们在环境中使用大量曲线边缘的墙纸，也许地毯或地板也采用很多曲线边缘，我们确实发现这似乎能让人更深入地反思，更多地思考精神性。

Let's in our environment, let's have wallpaper that have a lot of curved edges, maybe carpeting or flooring that has a lot of curved edges, and we we do find that it seems like that causes people to think more reflectively and more about spirituality.

我们认为，这部分原因在于人们通常更喜欢曲线边缘而非直线边缘。

We think part of that has to do with people tend to like curved edges more than straight edges.

因此，这可能与某种偏好有关。

And so it might have to do with some kind of kind of preference.

我们不认为这与某种类比有关，比如人们会想：哦，曲线是不是暗示了某种关于精神性的隐喻。

We don't think it has to do with analogies that somehow people think, oh, curves, you know, lead to some kind of metaphor about spirituality.

我们认为不是这样的。

We don't think that's the case.

但这有点复杂，因为我们还有其他研究显示，如果你把这种带曲线边缘的图像做得太过杂乱，让人看着感到困惑，也可能导致人们更容易作弊。

But it is a bit complex because we also have other research to show that if you make an image like that with the curved edges too disorderly where it's kind of confusing to look at, that can also cause people to cheat more.

所以我们在这里需要稍微谨慎一些，但我认为很大一部分原因还是在于模仿这些自然模式，我认为这些模式对大脑来说更容易处理，从而带来专注力的提升，也可能促进反思性思维。

So it's it's a little bit we have to be a little bit careful here about this, but I think a lot of it has to do with, again, mimicking these patterns of nature that I think are a little bit easier for the brain to process, which are then leading to, you know, improvements in directed attention, but also potentially improvements in, reflective thought.

那么在您的研究中，漫步森林和在海边散步有什么区别吗？

And so is there a difference in your research between, walking in a forest or walking on a shore by the sea?

我们还没有直接测试过这一点。

We haven't tested that directly.

我会说，如果自然漫步本身很有趣，也就是说它天然具有吸引力，那么你就能获得最具恢复性的体验。

I would say that if the nature walk is interesting, so it's it's kind of inherently interesting, that's where you're going to get, sort of the most restorative experience.

你知道，这可能发生在森林里。

You know, that could be in a forest.

这也可能发生在海岸边。

That could be on a shoreline.

你还得考虑周围还有什么其他噪音或干扰。

And and the other thing you have to think about too is, what other kind of noise or distractions are around.

所以如果你在海岸边散步，但周围人很多，也许还有人在叫卖，或者靠近车流，那就不如在安静的海岸边散步那样具有恢复性，在那里你只能听到海浪拍打的声音，没有太多干扰。

So if you're walking on the shoreline, but there's a lot of people and maybe there's a lot of maybe there's people selling things, maybe it's close to car traffic, you know, that's not going to be as restorative as, you know, walking along a shoreline where it's quieter, where you could just hear the waves crashing in, where there's not a lot of distractions.

所以我认为这一点需要特别留意。

So I think that's one thing to be really mindful of.

另一个需要注意的是，你也不应该在散步时打电话或戴耳机听东西。

Another thing to be mindful of is that you also might not want to be chatting on your phone or listening to anything on earbuds.

你最好让自己的全部注意力都集中在环境中的刺激上。

You kinda wanna let all of your attention be captured by the stimulation in the environment.

你不应该分散自己对那柔和而引人入胜的自然刺激的注意力。

You don't wanna distract yourself from the softly fascinating natural stimulation.

换句话说，你要专注于当下。

You wanna be present, in other words.

没错。

Exactly.

你要专注于当下。

You wanna be present.

是的。

Yeah.

你已经研究过实验室任务，也研究过真实世界的体验。

Now you've studied both lab based tasks and also real world experiences.

哪种类型的数据更让你感到惊讶？

Which kind of data has surprised you more?

你知道，这两种都挺让人惊讶的。

You know, they're they've both been kind of surprising.

在实验中，其中一个最让我们惊讶的发现来自我们让参与者在自然环境和城市环境中散步并观察其直接注意力变化的实验：我们发现，个体并不需要享受自然环境才能获得认知上的益处。

In the experiment, one of the things that surprised me the most from our experiments where we we have people walk in nature and in more urban environments and look for changes in their direct attention, one of the surprising things that we found there was that, individuals didn't need to enjoy the nature to get to get the benefit, the cognitive benefit.

我觉得这一点有些出人意料，也违背直觉。

And I thought that was somewhat surprising and counterintuitive.

因此，在所有这些研究中，我们也会观察参与者情绪的变化。

So, in all of these studies, we also look for people's changes in mood.

确实，人们似乎更喜欢在自然中散步，这也会更明显地改善他们的情绪。

And it it does seem to be the case that people like walking in nature more, and that improves their mood more.

但我们没有发现情绪改善与定向注意力提升之间有很强的相关性。

But we didn't find a strong relationship between improvements in mood and improvements in directed attention.

因此，并不是只有那些情绪大幅提升的人才表现出定向注意力的显著改善。

So it wasn't the case that only the people who showed huge improvements in mood were the ones that showed big improvements in in directed attention.

一个强有力的证明是，我们在一年中的不同时间让参与者散步，这些研究是在密歇根大学安娜堡分校进行的。

And a strong demonstration of that is that we had participants walk at different times of the year, and these studies were done at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

六月时，气温相当温暖，大约在华氏80度，即摄氏25度左右。

In June, the temperature was quite warm, maybe around 80 degrees Fahrenheit, 25 degrees Celsius.

参与者说，马克，我太喜欢这次散步了。

Participants said, Mark, I love the walk.

我简直不敢相信我居然因为去大自然中散步而得到报酬。

I can't believe I was paid to go for a walk in nature.

他们表现出健康的认知益处，也就是定向注意力的提升，以及良好的情绪改善。

They showed healthy cognitive benefits, you know, directed attention benefits, and healthy mood benefits.

但我们也有一些参与者在一月散步，那时气温大约为零摄氏度，也就是华氏32度。

But we also had participants, some of them walked in January when it was around zero degrees Celsius, you know, 32 degrees Fahrenheit.

参与者说，我不喜欢那次在大自然中的散步，但他们获得的定向注意力提升与六月散步的人一样。

And participants said, I did not enjoy that walk in nature, but they showed the same directed attention benefits of the people that walked in June.

我觉得这非常有趣且出人意料。

And I found that to be pretty interesting and surprising.

所以你不必非得在最完美的日子去大自然中散步。

So you don't have to go in nature on the most perfect day.

可能是下雨天。

It could be rainy.

可能是阴天。

It could be cloudy.

可能是寒冷的天气。

It could be cold.

只要你穿着合适的衣物，仍然可以获得这些认知益处。

As long as you're wearing the proper attire, you can still get these cognitive benefits.

所以我觉得这很令人惊讶。

So I thought that was surprising.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且你不必

And You don't have

你不需要喜欢它，它对你也有好处。

to like it for it to be good for you.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这有点像菠菜。

So it's kind of like spinach, maybe.

是的。

Yes.

或者锻炼。

Or exercise.

不是每个人都喜欢锻炼，但它对你有好处。

Not everybody likes to exercise, but it's good for you.

对。

Right.

我欣赏你的书和你的工作的一点是，它是跨学科的。

One of the things that that I enjoyed about your, book and your work is that it's, interdisciplinary.

它交叉了心理学、神经科学和城市规划。

It, it intersects psychology, neuroscience, and urban planning.

我喜欢这一点，因为我觉得生活不同于学术，本身就是跨学科的。

And, and I like it because I think life, unlike academia, is interdisciplinary.

那么，哪个领域对‘自然很重要’这一观点的抵触最大呢？我很好奇。

So, which field, I'm curious to know, has been the most resistance to the idea that nature matters?

这是个非常有趣的问题。

It's a very interesting question.

我可能会说是心理学。

I might say psychology.

真的。

Truly.

是的。

Yeah.

从某种意义上说，我认为最初许多心理学家认为这类研究是不靠谱或肤浅的，不像真正的硬科学。

In a sense because I think at first, a lot of psychologists kind of viewed this research of being kind of flaky or fluffy, that it didn't feel like real hard science.

我认为城市规划者对这一点有很强的直觉，建筑师也是如此。

And, I think the urban planners had a lot of intuition that this was true, and I think architects had the intuition that this was true.

我认为甚至工程师也对这一点有直觉。

And I think even engineers had the intuition that this was true.

他们实际上在设计这些空间，并思考：我们如何让这些空间更宜居？

And they're actually designing these spaces and thinking, you know, how can we make these spaces more habitable?

但对于心理学家来说，他们认为，首先，你如何以严谨的方式检验这些东西？

But I think for the psychologist, they thought, you know, for one, how are you gonna test this stuff in a rigorous way?

其次，有太多变量在起作用。

And then two, there's so many variables at play.

你怎么知道真正造成影响的是什么？

How do you know what's really causing the effect?

是不是只是因为人们更喜欢自然？

Is it just that people like nature more?

这与绿色有关吗？

Does it have to do with the color green?

你知道，到底发生了什么？

You know, what's what's going on?

所以我认为，最初心理学界对此更为怀疑，但我想现在他们已经转变了看法。

And so I think that's why, at first, I think psychology was more skeptical to it, but I think now they've they've come around.

我认为其他领域，比如医学，也开始对此产生更多兴趣。

I think other fields that you know, medicine is another one that I think is starting now to get more interested in.

部分原因是，在医院里进行了一些研究，考察了医院病房窗外的景观。

In part, there were studies done in hospitals where they looked at the view out of the room in the hospital out of a hospital room.

这是罗杰·乌尔里希的研究，他研究了费城一家医院中的一条走廊，所有患者都位于同一条走廊上。

And this is work done by Roger Ulrich, where he studied a single hospital corridor in a hospital in Philadelphia, and they're all in the same corridor.

他们都位于同一条走廊里。

They're all in the same hallway.

有些病房碰巧窗外能看到一些简单的自然景观，比如树木和草地。

Some of the hospital rooms, by chance, just have windows to some modest nature to some trees, and some grass.

医院走廊的其他房间则面向一堵砖墙。

Other rooms on the hospital corridor had views to, like, a brick wall.

乌尔里希感兴趣的是胆囊手术的康复情况。

And what Ulrich was interested in looking at was recovery from gallbladder surgery.

乌尔里希发现，那些拥有自然景观视野的病人，胆囊手术后的康复时间比面对砖墙的病人提前了一天，并且使用的止痛药也更少。

And Ulrich found that the patients who had the rooms with the modest nature view, they recovered from gallbladder surgery a day earlier, and they used less pain medication than the people who had the view of the brick wall.

这项研究还有一个有趣的地方，你可能会想，也许更富裕、更年轻或受教育程度更高的病人恰好被分配到了有自然景观的房间。

And what's interesting about this study too, you might be thinking, well, maybe the wealthier people or the younger people, the more educated people, add the nature of views.

但事实并非如此，这些病人是随机分配到任何可用的房间的，结果仍然显示出显著的影响。

But, no, these patients are just randomly assigned to whatever room is available, and there was a significant effect.

因此，这非常反直觉且令人惊讶——即使是你窗外的景色，也能影响你胆囊手术的康复。

So that's pretty counterintuitive and amazing that even the view out of your window could change your recovery from gallbladder surgery.

所以我认为，这其实也符合整体医学的理念。

And so I think, you know, this is also kind of in line with this idea of holistic medicine.

这不仅仅是治疗个体本身，还要将个体及其所处的环境作为一个整体来对待。

And, you know, it's not just treating the individual the whole, but you also have to treat the individual and their environmental context as a whole.

所以我认为，这种观点在医学领域正开始获得关注，但我认为我们也需要让它在公共政策和经济学领域得到重视，因为这是一项值得投资的事业。

So I think this is starting to gain traction, in medicine, but I also think we need this to gain traction in public policy and economics that this is something worth investing in.

那

That

我很高兴你提到这项研究，因为它非常经典。

I'm really glad you mentioned that study because, it's it's classic.

它具有开创性。

It's groundbreaking.

这项研究是上世纪八十年代做的吧？

It was done, what, back in the nineteen eighties or something like that?

是的。

Yes.

1984年。

'84.

没错。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它本应引发一场革命

And it it it should have led to a a revolution

在

in

医疗保健领域，但改变并不容易。

health care, but it's not so easy to change.

没错。

That's right.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

That's right.

谈谈敬畏感的作用，那种谦逊与惊奇的混合，如何帮助恢复我们所讨论的那种注意力或心理平衡。

Talk for a bit about the role of awe, that mix of humility and wonder in restoring the kind of attentional or mental balance we're talking about.

对。

Right.

所以，有一些非常有趣的研究探讨了进入极其美丽的自然环境如何能让人产生一种敬畏感。

So, there's been some really interesting work looking at how going into really beautiful nature can cause people to have, like, a a sense of awe.

从某种意义上说，这会让人们觉得自己相对于整个世界可能显得渺小，甚至有些微不足道。

And in some sense, this kinda makes people maybe feel a little bit small, maybe even a little bit insignificant compared, to the rest of the world.

这听起来可能有些消极，但实际上人们认为这是积极的，因为它有助于让人更客观地看待事物。

And that might sound negative, but it's actually thought to be a little bit positive that it kinda helps put things into perspective.

研究人员发现，当人们经历这些令人敬畏的自然体验时，他们会变得更加亲社会，也更能将他人视为有血有肉的人。

And researchers have found that when people undergo these awe inspiring nature experiences, they can become more prosocial, and they can also see people as being more human.

所以，你在新闻里经常听到关于去人性化或非人化的说法。

So, you know, you hear a lot in the news about dehumanizing or dehumanization.

但这里的研究发现，身处自然或与自然互动，实际上能让人更倾向于将他人视为有情感的人，我认为这是一个非常强大的概念。

Here, people have found that being in nature or interacting with nature can actually cause people to humanize others more, which I think is a very, very powerful concept.

问题是，这是否与注意力有关？

The question is is that does it have to do with attention?

而且这可能确实与注意力有关，因为我们认为，引导注意力的能力是自我控制的基础。

And and maybe it does because we do think that your ability to direct attention underlies kind of self control.

我确实觉得，要更加利他、不冲动行事，通常需要消耗心理能量。

And I do kind of think that it takes mental energy often to be kind of more altruistic and not acting on impulses.

但这也可能涉及一种略有不同的机制——那种在壮丽自然中感到渺小或被震撼的感觉，能帮助我们重新审视事物，让我们更加珍视环境，也更加珍视他人，我认为在当今时代，这一点极其重要。

But it could actually be a little bit of a different mechanism that kind of feeling a little bit small or being awe inspired in this beautiful nature kind of puts things into perspective and, can help us to kind of value the environment more, but also to value other people more, which I think in current times is something that's hugely, hugely important.

是的。

Yes.

关于自然对情绪和注意力的所有影响，我们之前已经讨论过了。

And and with all the impact, of nature on on mood, on attention that we've talked about.

但我们还没谈到其他方面，比如创造力，你在书中也提到了这一点。

We haven't talked about other things like creativity, which you talk about in the book too.

你有没有想过，未来心理学家甚至医生会不会建议人们去公园散步，以应对某些失衡或功能障碍，比如写作障碍或情绪障碍？

Do do you imagine there would be a time when a psychologist or even a physician would someday prescribe a walk in the park to deal with some imbalance or dysfunction, like a writer's block or a mood disorder?

当然会。

Absolutely.

这种事情已经某种程度上在发生了。

It's already sort of happening.

因此，英国和加拿大的医生已经开始开具自然散步、与自然互动的处方，作为治疗抑郁症和焦虑症的辅助疗法。

So, doctors in The UK and in Canada are already prescribing walks in nature, interactions with nature as sort of a supplemental therapy for people suffering from depression and anxiety.

有很多关于人们遇到写作障碍，或正在解决困难的数学、物理或化学问题的轶事。

There's lots and lots of anecdotes of people who have writer's block or they're working on some difficult math problem or physics problem or chemistry problem.

他们想不出答案。

They can't figure it out.

于是他们离开书桌，去自然中散步，突然间就能解决这个问题了。

They leave their desk, and they go for a walk in nature, and all of a sudden, they can solve the problem.

所以，你知道，我认为这里还有很多空间，当然，我们现在还不能说不需要药物干预或心理治疗来治疗抑郁症、焦虑症和多动症。

And so, you know, I think there's still a lot there definitely you know, we can't say now we don't need pharmacological interventions or psychotherapy to treat depression and anxiety and ADHD.

这些是经过验证的临床疗法，而我们还不知道与自然的互动是否能与这些疗法相媲美。

You know, those are validated clinical therapies, and we don't know if interactions with nature are on par with those therapies.

但已有大量研究暗示，与自然互动无疑可以作为许多此类疾病的辅助或补充疗法。

But there's been a lot of suggestive research that interacting with nature can certainly be an ancillary or supplemental therapy for a lot of these, disorders.

我认为我所期望的是，我们现在能开启一场自然革命，真正开始对这些方法进行临床测试，以了解它们的临床效果。

And I think what I'm hoping is that now we start sort of a a nature revolution where we really start testing these things clinically to see, what is their clinical efficacy.

但毫无疑问，对于那些遇到写作瓶颈、精神疲惫或无法集中注意力的人，我非常有信心建议：去大自然中散步吧，这有助于恢复你的定向注意力，我认为这能帮助你解决问题，重新激发创造力。

But, definitely, for people who are having writer's block or you're just mentally fatigued or you're not able to concentrate, you know, I feel very comfortable saying, yeah, try going for a walk in nature, to kinda restore your directed attention, which I think should help you to solve the problem, help you to get some of those creative juices back.

你知道，这比刷手机好多了。

You know, it's it's a lot better than going to your phone.

你会说散步是这种疗法的关键部分吗？

And would you say that the walk part is an essential part of this prescription?

换句话说，据我所知，目前还没有相关研究，但我们一直强调‘在公园散步’、‘在自然中散步’。

In other words, I I know there isn't research as far as I know on this, but we keep saying a walk in the park, a walk in nature.

毕竟，我们是具有身体存在的生物。

And after all, we are embodied creatures.

你是否怀疑，静坐在自然环境中与在自然环境中行走、活动之间存在差异？

Do you suspect that there's a difference between sitting still in a natural environment or walking, moving in that environment?

我认为这又回到了‘柔和的迷恋’和非自愿注意力的问题上。

I think it kinda gets back to soft fascination again and involuntary attention.

你知道的。

You know?

如果你能坐在办公室里，望着窗外美丽的自然景色，并且感觉你的非自愿注意力能被足够长时间地吸引，那可能会很好。

If you could sit at your office and look out at a beautiful nature scene and and feel like your involuntary attention could be captured long enough, you know, that that might be good.

但我的猜测是，是的，自然景观会吸引你的柔和兴趣，吸引你的非自愿注意力，大概持续三十秒到一分钟，但要持续一小时可能就很难了。

But my my guess is that, yeah, that nature view will capture your soft fascination, capture your attention, your involuntary attention for, you know, maybe thirty seconds or a minute, but it might be hard to capture it for an hour.

所以我认为，当你能走进真实的自然并活动起来时，会更有趣。

And so I think when you're able to go out into real nature and move, it's gonna be more interesting.

这方面还涉及我导师史蒂夫·卡普兰常提到的一个概念，他认为一个具有恢复作用的环境必须让人产生一种‘远离’的感觉。

Another part of this has to do with the concept that my mentor, Steve Kaplan, used to talk about, which was that he thought that a restorative environment had to give you the sense of being away.

他所说的‘远离’，是指脱离日常活动的一种感受。

And what he meant by that is, like, a sense from being away from your day to day activities.

所以，离开你的办公桌。

So getting away from your desk.

对。

Right.

也许远离你的家。

Maybe getting away from your house.

因为如果你待在家里或办公室里，你仍然会面临所有令人分心的工作干扰。

Because if you're in your house or you're in your office space, you're still gonna have all of those tempting work distractions.

所以，真正离开这种环境，进入一个全新的物理空间，让你的大脑进入一种不同的心理状态，这可能更有助于恢复。

So it might be important to actually get yourself out of that environment and kind of into a new physical space to get your brain into a different kind of mental space that actually might be more restorative.

我认为，真正远离日常生活的这一点非常重要。

And I think there's a lot there's a lot to that about actually getting away from your day to day.

这真是个很好的观点。

That's really a good point.

最后，马克，你提到城市可以被设计成促进心理健康。

And finally, Mark, you've said that cities can be designed to promote mental health.

告诉我们，一个心理健康的城市场景会是什么样子。

Tell us what a psychologically healthy city would look like.

当然。

Sure.

我不希望任何人听了这个节目后得出这样的结论：哦，我们都应该搬到更乡村的地区，或者离开城市。

And I I I wouldn't want anybody to take away from listening to this this program that, oh, we should all move into more rural areas or get out of cities.

绝对不是这样。

Absolutely not.

城市在很多方面都非常好。

Cities are are great, for a number of reasons.

就像我的同事路易斯·贝坦库尔特所展示的那样，城市更加高效。

Like my colleague, Luis Betancourt, has showed that cities are more efficient.

你知道，在城市里，人均所需的道路更少，加油站也更少。

You know, you need less road in cities per capita, less gas stations.

城市里有更多的财富、更多的创新和更多的专利。

You have more wealth in cities, more innovation, more patents.

因此，城市在很多方面都是有益的。

So cities are good for a number of reasons.

我们甚至发现，人口更多的大城市，人均抑郁症发病率反而比小城市更低。

We even find that larger, more populated cities have actually less depression per capita than smaller cities.

它们的人均种族偏见也比小城市少。

They have less racial biases per capita than smaller cities.

所以城市是好的，但城市也可能带来压力。

So cities are good, but cities can also be stressful.

因此，当我构想一个顺应这场自然革命的未来城市时，我们会通过在城市中增加更多自然元素来使城市自然化。

And so when I envision, you know, a future city that kinda takes on this nature revolution, we naturize these cities by putting more nature into the cities.

我们会拥有更多的公园。

We have more parks.

我们会拥有更多远离汽车噪音的静谧区域。

We have more areas that are more secluded from car noise.

它们更适宜步行。

They're more walkable.

也许你可以想象，摩天大楼上攀爬着藤蔓或长着树木。

And maybe, you know, imagine that the skyscrapers add, you know, vines or trees growing out of them.

我们将自然、植物和绿色墙体融入我们的学校、办公室和家庭中。

We put nature and plants and green walls into our schools, into our offices, into our homes.

我认为这些都是我们可以做到的事情。

And and I think this is all this is all things that we can do.

所以这很好。

So it's it's good.

我们希望保留城市的许多基础设施，但也要确保为城市居民提供更多自然元素，让他们能够接触到这些自然空间。

We wanna keep a lot of the infrastructure of cities, but we wanna make sure that we get more more nature to them so that people living in urban areas have access to these to these nature spaces.

有很多城市正在做这样的事情。

And there there are a lot of cities that are doing things like this.

比如新加坡，当他们因建造建筑而破坏了一些自然环境时，就必须把自然恢复回来，因此建筑师和城市规划者必须发挥创意，在建筑上设置带有自然植被的露台，甚至让植物沿着建筑侧面生长。

You know, Singapore does a really great job of this that when they destroy some nature by building a building, you have to put the nature back so that architects have and urban planners have to be creative by putting, like, terraces on buildings that have nature or even having, you know, nature kinda growing down the side of buildings.

因此，我对这场自然革命持乐观态度，相信我们能够创造出未来这种乌托邦式的绿色城市。

So I'm kind of optimistic that, you know, with the nature revolution, you know, we could kind of create these kind of utopian green green cities of the future.

听起来不错。

Sounds good to me.

这本书叫《自然与心灵：自然如何改善认知、身体和社会福祉》，作者是马克·伯曼。

The book is nature and the mind, the science of how nature improves cognitive, physical, and social well-being by Mark Berman.

谢谢您今天做客节目，马克。

Thanks for coming on the show today, Mark.

非常感谢您，雷妮。

Thank you so much, Renee.

这是我的荣幸。

It was my pleasure.

也要感谢我们的研究员贝拉·帕萨科夫。

And thanks to our researcher, Bela Pasakov.