今年冬天的流感有所不同吗？

你好。

Hello.

又到了一年中的这个时候，人们总说，哎呀，大家都在咳嗽、喘息，因病请假。

It's that time of the year where everyone says, oh, everyone's coughing and spluttering and off sick from work.

这种情况现在很普遍。

There's a lot of it going about.

通常我会持怀疑态度，因为这属于轶闻而非数据。

Normally, I'm quite skeptical because that's anecdotes rather than data.

但今天，英格兰NHS表示我们正面临前所未有的流感疫情。

But today, NHS England said we are facing an unprecedented situation with flu.

本期新闻播报将深入探讨这次疫情为何如此不同寻常。

We will dig into the details about what makes it so unprecedented on this episode of Newscast.

新闻播报。

Newscast.

BBC新闻播报。

Newscast from the BBC.

我们班的男孩们在上小提琴课时和我住在一起。

Our boys live in me in the class doing our violin lessons.

我是班上的告密者。

I was the tattle tale in the class.

能请你道个歉吗？

Can I have an apology, please?

我几乎不信任任何人。

I trust almost nobody.

有时候爸爸不得不说些强硬的话。

Then daddy has to sometimes do strong language.

下次在莫斯科见。

Next time in Moscow.

我感觉到了没有萨鲁鲁的露露。

I feel the lulu with no salulu.

带我去唐尼街吧。

Take me down to Downey Street.

左转。

Left.

去参观一下吧。

Go have a tour.

天哪。

Blimey.

你好。

Hello.

这里是新闻演播室的亚当，英格兰的卫生官员警告称，当前是流感与国民医疗服务体系面临的最严峻时期，至少在英格兰地区如此。

It's Adam in the newscast studio, and health bosses in England are warning of the worst case scenario for this time of year for flu and the NHS, at least in England.

他们引用了上周英格兰每日流感住院患者的数据，达到两千零六十人。

They are quoting figures for the number of patients in hospital with flu in England each day last week, which was two thousand six and sixty.

这比前一周增长了55%，创下了历年同期的最高纪录。

That is up fifty five percent on the week before, and is the highest it's ever been for this time of year.

他们表示这种情况前所未有且是最坏情形，原因在于多重因素叠加：当前传播的流感毒株略有变异，多数人接种流感疫苗的时机与之错位，再加上住院医生（原称初级医生）即将于下周举行的罢工行动。

And the reason they're saying this is unprecedented and the worst case scenario is because it's a combination of things, like this slightly different strain of flu that is circulating when this is happening versus when most people have managed to get their flu jab, and then you throw into that the impending strike by resident doctors formerly known as junior doctors, which is due to take place next week.

因此有很多数据需要深入分析，也有很多方面需要关注，而将协助我们完成这项工作的是BBC健康编辑休·皮姆，他现在就在演播室。

So there is lots of data to dive into and lots of things to look at, and the people who are gonna help us do that are the BBC's health editor, Hugh Pym, who's here in the studio.

你好，休。

Hello, Hugh.

你好，亚当。

Hi, Adam.

同时通过电话连线加入我们的是来自英国卫生安全局的杰米·洛佩斯·伯纳尔博士。

Also joining us on the line from the UK Health Security Agency is Doctor Jamie Lopez Bernal.

你好，杰米博士！

Hello Doctor Jamie!

你好！

Hi!

休，人们会看到很多听起来相当可怕的头条新闻。

Hugh, people will see lots of quite scary sounding headlines.

请给我们一个负责任的版本，告诉我们目前流感的情况究竟如何。

Give us the responsible version about what we think the situation is with flu.

嗯，实际情况是，这个季节出现这种情况是前所未有的。

Well, the situation is the reality of it is it is unprecedented for this time of year.

这一点很重要。

That's important to say.

根据大约五年来的记录。

And based on records that go back about five years.

所以我们没有更早的数据可以对比。

So we don't have a comparison before that.

但可以肯定的是，从11月到现在的12月初，根据英格兰国民医疗服务体系的最新数据，医院收治的流感患者略超2600人。

But certainly for November and now into early December, hospital cases, we've got the latest figures now from NHS England, just over two thousand six hundred patients with flu in hospitals.

这个数字比正常水平高出很多，而且周环比增长了约55%。

That is quite a lot higher than what it normally would be and is up something like fifty five percent week on week.

令人担忧的是它提前出现，这预示着高峰期会是什么样？

And the worry about it coming early is what does it tell us about what the peak's gonna be?

过去五六年记录的最高峰值大约是5400例住院病例，所以我们目前还没达到那个数字。

Now the most recent record peak over those five or six years or so was about five thousand four hundred hospital cases, so we're still short of that.

但令人担忧的是它来得有点早。

But the worry is it's come a bit early.

这是否意味着峰值会与往年冬季相似，还是更高，或是趋于平稳。

Does that mean it's going to be the same sort of peak as previous winters or a bigger peak or a sort of plateau.

这就是不确定性所在。

It's the uncertainty there.

而且因为它来得稍早，接种疫苗的人较少，而且这个毒株已被证明对老年患者尤其更为严重。

And because it's come a bit earlier, fewer people have been vaccinated, and it's a strain that has proved to be a little bit more serious for particularly older older patients.

所有这些因素叠加引发了担忧，但还有好几周时间等待更多数据，谁知道最终会如何发展。

So all of that adding up is causing the concern, but there's still quite a few more weeks to go and more data, and and who knows how it might turn out.

那么，杰米，给我们讲讲这个让人们如此担忧的新毒株吧。

So, Jamie, tell us about this new strain then that's got people like you so concerned.

是的。

Yeah.

流感病毒在不断变化，每年都会根据我们上一季观察到的毒株发生变异。

So, the flu virus is constantly changing, and it evolves every year from what we've seen in the previous season.

今年，病毒的变异速度比往常更快，这意味着我们群体免疫力比平时稍弱，这正是我们对今年流感更为担忧的原因——它可能造成更大的影响。

This year, the virus has evolved a bit more, than it more rapidly than it usually does, And what this means is that as a population we have a bit less immunity than we usually do, and that's why we've been a bit more concerned about flu this year, that it may have that bigger impact.

正如休所说，我们还观察到H3N2毒株，这类病毒通常对老年人影响更大，导致更多住院病例。

As Hugh says, we're also seeing three n two, which does typically affect older people a bit more and cause more hospitalizations.

因此这是今年需要关注的另一个原因。

So that that's another reason for concern this year.

请再谈谈疫苗接种时机与接种人数的问题。

And then just talk about that point about the timing of how many people are vaccinated.

因为从疫苗接种统计数据来看，实际接种流感疫苗的人数看起来相当不错。

Because you look at the the statistics of vaccination and actually the numbers of people who've been getting the flu jab looks quite good.

那为什么这还是个问题呢？

So why why is that an issue?

事实上正如你所说，民众接种疫苗的积极性很高，我们看到接种率和覆盖率数据都不错。

Well, I mean, in fact, as you say, people have been taking up the vaccine and we've seen, good numbers, coverage rates.

流感季提前开始确实可能对此造成影响。

The fact that the season starts early can impact on that.

因此如果流感季开始得过早，人们还没来得及接种疫苗，那就会成为问题。

So if the season starts so early that people haven't been vaccinated then that is a problem.

但另一方面，你也不想接种得过早，因为我们知道疫苗的有效性会随着季节推移而下降。

But on the other hand you don't want to get vaccinated too early because we know that the effectiveness of vaccines drops over the course of the season.

实际上，那些在11月到12月初接种疫苗的人将得到很好的流感防护，我们已在本季看到一些疫苗有效性的证据，尽管病毒株已发生变异，但疫苗仍被证明有效。

So in fact people that have been vaccinated in November coming into sort of early December will be well protected against flu and we've seen some evidence of the effectiveness of vaccines already this season and we know that they're proving effective despite this evolved strain.

所以我对疫苗接种时机没有特别的担忧。

So I don't have particular concerns around timing of vaccine.

显然，如果你还没接种疫苗，现在接种非常重要，因为免疫力的形成需要时间，通常需要两周左右。

Obviously if you haven't been vaccinated already, it's really important you do get vaccinated, it does take a bit of time for that immunity to develop, so around two weeks, typically.

因此为了确保人们在圣诞节前得到保护，他们最好在下周就接种疫苗。

So in to for people to ensure they're protected ahead of Christmas, really important that they get vaccinated in the next, next week, really.

今年使用的疫苗版本——因为疫苗每年都会更新——对这种新毒株有效吗？还是说这个新毒株让我们有些措手不及？

And does the version of the vaccine that we're using this year, because it because it changes and is updated every year, is is it effective against this new strain, or has that taken us a bit by surprise?

确实，本季早期这个毒株让我们有些意外，因为它相比疫苗选用的毒株已经发生了较大变异。

I mean, it it did take us a little bit by surprise early in the season in that, in that the strain had evolved quite a bit since the vaccines were selected or the strains to go into the vaccine were selected.

简单介绍一下这个流程的背景，世界卫生组织每年二月会决定推荐哪些毒株作为疫苗制造商生产疫苗的基础。

So just to give a bit of background on the process, the WHO each year in February will decide on which strains to recommend for the vaccine manufacturers to base their vaccines on.

这是根据最近数据中流行的毒株情况，即我们上一个流感季以及南半球流行的毒株来确定的。

And this is according to what has been circulating in the most recent data, so in our last season and also what's been circulating in the Southern Hemisphere.

随后他们在九月份再次为南半球召开会议，在那次九月会议上他们注意到病毒自疫苗毒株选定后已发生了显著进化和变异。

They then do that again for the Southern Hemisphere in September and in that September meeting they noted that the virus had evolved quite a bit and changed since the vaccine strains had been selected.

这确实引起了一些担忧，但我们随后评估了疫苗对临床疾病的防护效果，即它们在防止人们住院、急诊就诊方面的效力。

So that did cause a bit of concern but we have since looked at the effectiveness of vaccines against clinical disease, so how well they're protecting against people going to hospital hospital, being admitted to hospital or going to A and E.

我们发现疫苗的防护效果基本达到了流感季末期通常能达到的水平。

And we've seen that they are working pretty much as well as what we typically see by the end of flu season.

好的。

Okay.

当然目前还处于相对早期阶段，我们会持续监测后续情况。

Obviously, it's it's relatively early days, so we will continue to monitor that going forward.

但目前来看情况非常乐观，疫苗效果良好，这确实是我们对抗这种可能相当棘手的病毒的最佳防护手段。

But at the moment, it's very encouraging, and the vaccines are working well, and the the best protection that we have really against, what can be quite a nasty virus.

那么，Hugh，NHS在应对能力方面感觉如何？

And, Hugh, how does the NHS feel in term in terms of resilience?

他们是否做好了应对准备？

Does it are they set up to handle this?

嗯，他们应该准备好了。

Well, they should be.

我是说，流感存在已久，NHS过去几年都成功应对了。

I mean, flu has been around for a long time, and the NHS has coped with it in previous years.

我认为问题在于每年就诊人数持续增加，急诊室接诊的患者越来越多，呼吸道病毒普遍带来了更大压力。

I think the problem is each year, you get more and more attendances or and and more patients coming through the doors of a and e, so there's more pressures generally with respiratory viruses.

如果遇到毒性更强、住院率更高的流感变种，在最不需要的时候——通常在圣诞节和新年期间——压力就会加剧。

And if you've got a slightly nastier version of flu with more hospitalizations, at the margins, it's gonna put on pressure just when you don't need it because the pressure will build typically in the run up to Christmas and New Year.

每年新年伊始情况总是特别糟糕。

It's always really bad early in the New Year.

一位和我交谈过的医院首席执行官表示，他们知道1月5日周一及其后的日子会非常艰难，因为人们都在银行假期后返岗了。

And one hospital chief executive I've been speaking to said, they know that Monday, January 5, is gonna be a really difficult day in the days after because people are back after the bank holiday.

全科医生通常会恢复正常门诊服务，而非非工作时间服务。

GPs tend to reopen for for normal service, etcetera, rather than than out of hours.

所以如果现在他们面临巨大压力，对接下来的几周会有些担忧。

So if they've got this real strain in terms of pressure now, they're slightly dreading the next few weeks.

因此，哪怕只是边际上的小幅增加，都可能显著加剧医院的紧张状态。

So it doesn't take much just at the margins to sort of really increase the tension in hospitals.

杰米，现在让我们进入公共服务广播环节。

And Jamie, let's do the public service broadcasting bit now.

请帮我们回顾一下感冒、流感和新冠肺炎的区别，以及公众该如何区分这三者。

Just remind us the difference between a cold, the flu, and having COVID, and how people should sort of think of those three different things.

是的。

Yeah.

流感通常是一种更为严重的疾病，可能导致住院甚至死亡，尤其是与普通感冒相比。

I I mean, flu can is typically, a much more severe disease, so it can cause hospitalizations, and it can cause deaths in particular, compared to the common cold.

就症状而言，患者会出现呼吸道症状如咳嗽、气短，但通常还伴随全身酸痛、疲劳以及较为严重的高烧。

And in terms of the symptoms that people will experience, they'll experience those respiratory symptoms, so cough, shortness of breath, but you also tend to get aching, tiredness, and generally with a quite a severe fever.

显然，它对不同人的影响方式各异，存在一个完整的症状谱系。

Obviously, it affects different people in different ways, and there's a whole spectrum.

它可能导致轻微病症。

It can cause mild disease.

也可能引发更严重的疾病，但比普通感冒更令人担忧。

It can cause more severe disease, but it's a bit more concerning than common cold.

新冠类似，症状表现相近，但存在一些细微差异，比如可能出现味觉嗅觉改变。它同样会导致严重病症，尤其对老年群体或存在免疫抑制等临床状况的人群。

COVID, similarly, the similar presentation, there are some slight differences such as the change in taste and smell that you can get with Covid, but it can can cause severe disease as well in particular in older age groups or those with clinical conditions that for example cause immunosuppression.

因此，如果你属于符合条件的群体或高风险群体，接种疫苗就显得尤为重要。

So it's something that if you're in an eligible group, if you're in a risk group, then it's really important that you get vaccinated against.

那么当人们流感症状非常严重时，应该何时寻求医疗帮助？

And when should people seek medical attention if they've got the flu really badly?

英国国民保健体系对此有相关指导，可查阅NHS官网获取何时需要就诊或住院的信息。

Well, the NHS has got some guidance on this, so have a look at NHS website for information on when to see your GP or go to hospital.

但一般来说，如果没有高烧的轻微症状通常可以在家自行处理。

But in general if it's mild without a high fever then it can generally be managed at home.

如果人们开始感到特别不适，出现呼吸急促、呼吸困难，或者持续高烧多日不退，那么及时联系你的全科医生或拨打NHS 111热线就非常重要。

If people are starting to feel particularly unwell with shortness of breath and you're struggling to breathe or if you've got a really high fever and things aren't resolving after a number of days, then it's important that you get in touch with, with your GP or with NHS one one one.

休，有些听众可能会想翻出新冠时期剩下的旧口罩来用，而另一些听众则对再次佩戴口罩的想法感到恐惧。

And, Hugh, some people listening to this will be tempted to crap crack open an old packet of face masks from the COVID era, and then other people listening will be horrified about the idea of having to wear a face mask again.

对此应该如何看待呢？

What's what's what's the way of thinking about that?

嗯，这个问题最近几天突然成为热点，不是吗？

Well, this issue has cropped up in the last few days, hasn't it?

因为NHS供应商首席执行官丹尼尔·埃尔凯斯在回答问题时发表了一番言论，他说：

Because Daniel Elkies, chief executive of NHS providers, came out with a quote in answer to a question saying, look.

如果你乘坐公共交通工具或在公共场所咳嗽打喷嚏，确实应该佩戴口罩——这暗示着这是个人应尽的责任。

If you're traveling on public transport or you're in a public space and you're coughing and sneezing, you really ought to wear a mask and, you know, implying it's your responsibility to do so.

现在存在一些困惑，因为有些人误以为这是NHS在强制要求戴口罩，而他完全没有这个意思。

Now there's a bit of confusion because I think people some people thought that this was the NHS telling people to wear masks, and he absolutely wasn't doing that.

从某种意义上说，他只是在陈述一个显而易见的事实——正如杰米肯定会同意的——这与英国卫生安全局的指导方针一致，但这引发了关于是否应该完全交由个人自行决定的广泛讨论。

In some senses, he was just saying the obvious, which is in line, as Jamie, I'm sure, will agree with UKHSA guidelines, but it's caused a lot of discussion around whether it's just left to people's own responsibility.

这完全是政府的立场。

That's very much the government line.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我们并没有强制人们佩戴口罩。

We're not forcing people to wear masks.

如果他们觉得有必要，这样做是明智的。

It's sensible if they think that's necessary.

有些医院建议访客佩戴口罩，由于流感原因佩戴口罩的情况也增多了，但这更多是根据具体情况而定。

Some hospitals are saying that visitors should wear masks, and there's more mask wearing because of flu, but it's very much sort of on a case by case basis there.

杰米，我们是不是又回到了‘确保经常洗手’的老话题上？

I mean, Jamie, are we just back in make sure you wash your hands quite regularly territory?

我的意思是，这是一种可以人际传播的病毒，因此采取合理预防措施来降低传播风险是明智的，尤其是当你与老年人或其他更易感人群接触时。

Mean, it's it's a virus that can be transmitted from person to person, so there's sensible precautions that you can take to minimize that risk of transmission, in particular, if you're in contact with elderly people or people that might be more vulnerable for other reasons.

所以如果你出现呼吸道症状或发烧，应尽可能居家休息，使用纸巾并迅速处理，同时保持定期洗手。

So things like staying at home if you do have respiratory symptoms and you do have fever, as best as possible, using tissues, disposing of those tissues quickly, washing your hands on a regular basis.

如果你确实需要外出，当然可以考虑佩戴口罩。

And if you do need to go out, then of course you can consider wearing a mask.

不过，正如你所说，目前并没有强制要求。

But, yeah, as you said, there's no mandate around that.

休，我们之前讨论过NHS的韧性或其他方面。

And, Hugh, we talked about the resilience or otherwise of the NHS.

未来几周影响这一点的因素之一是初级医生——现在称为住院医生——将再次举行罢工。

One of the things that will affect that in the next few weeks is there's gonna be another strike by junior doctors now known as resident doctors.

请向我们说明一下这场纠纷的进展以及如果罢工发生可能会是什么情况。

Just remind us where that dispute has got to and what that strike might look like if it goes ahead.

嗯，事情发展到了一个相当奇怪的状态，因为罢工原定于12月17日周三早上7点在英格兰开始，持续五天。双方一直在互相指责，斯特里特称这完全不可接受等等，而英国医学会则表示他们将按计划进行。

Well, it's got to a rather curious state of affairs because the strike was announced to start in England on Wednesday, December 17 at 7AM and then last five days, And both sides were sort of trading blows with streeting saying it was completely unacceptable and so on, and and the BMA said they were going ahead.

表面上似乎什么都没发生。

Nothing appeared to be happening.

但据我所知，政府与英国医学会之间存在一些非正式沟通渠道，双方仍在保持对话。

But it seems and I think we knew this, that there were sort of back channels between the government and the BMA, which continued talking to each other.

一些原本高度保密的谈判突然在周三晚间取得进展，政府带着关于培训岗位的新提议前往下议院。

And some talks that were kept very much under the radar suddenly resulting, on Wednesday evening was treating, going to the commons with this new offer to do with training places.

我们可以稍后详细讨论这一点。

We can dwell on that in a minute.

但他说，听着。

But he said, look.

这里有个新提议。

Here's a new offer.

我非常希望医生们能投票支持它，这样至少可以取消或推迟这次罢工。

I really want doctors to vote for it, and this strike could at least get called off or postponed.

英国医学协会表示将通过在线调查征求会员意见，了解他们的真实想法。

The BMA have said that they will put this to members through an online survey and find out really how they feel about it.

虽然没有新增资金，但会提供更多培训岗位。

There's no new money, but there's more training places.

他们将在周一午餐时间前获得调查结果。

And they'll get a result in terms of that survey by Monday lunchtime.

根据调查结果，他们将要么推迟罢工并对提议进行全员投票，要么表示未能获得足够积极的反馈。

And based on that, they will either postpone the strike and then have a full vote on the offer or say, we haven't got enough of of positive feedback.

我们将按计划进行。

We'll go ahead.

现在这有点问题，因为如果罢工周三开始而周一取消，你们已经取消了大量手术和预约。

Now that is a bit of a problem because if the strike's starting on Wednesday and you call it off on Monday, you've already canceled a load of operations and appointments.

这真的让韦斯·斯特里廷很恼火。

And that really got Wes Streeting going.

他对此感到相当沮丧。

He was pretty frustrated by that.

有趣的是，在NHS英格兰所有关于流感的通讯中，他们紧接着说的第二件事就是'哦，还有医生罢工即将到来，这会让情况变得更糟'。

And it is interesting that in all the NHS England's communications about the flu, the second thing they then say is, oh, and there's a doctor strike coming up, which will make the situation worse.

在他们的通讯中，这像是医疗和政治两件事的混合体。

It's a kind of mixture of two things going on there in their communications, the medical and the political.

是的。

Yes.

我是说，在新提议之前他们就明确表示，这是一年中最不适合罢工的时期，正好在圣诞节前两天结束，而压力本来就在累积。

I mean, they were making clear before the new offer that it was the worst possible time of year to be having a strike just ending two days before Christmas Eve when pressure's building up anyway.

现在又遇上流感激增。

And now you've got this flu surge.

他们说英国医学协会这样做真的相当不公平。

They said it was really, you know, pretty unfair of the BMA to be doing that.

这会影响到患者。

It would affect patients.

话虽如此，急诊和紧急护理将保持开放，由顾问医生值守，而英国医学协会的论点是：听着，

That being said, emergency and urgent care will be very much open, staffed by consultants, and the BMA argument is, look.

即使在工业行动之前，国民医疗服务体系就已经非常紧张了，你不能全怪这个。

Even before industrial action, the NHS was really stretched, and you can't just blame that.

但没错，我认为这是双方都在使用的修辞策略的一部分。

But, yes, it's part of, I think, part of the rhetoric that's been been seen on both sides.

至于韦斯·斯特里廷和卫生大臣几天前突然提出的提议，我们收到了一条消息。

And in terms of the the surprise offer from Wes Streets and the health secretary a couple of days ago, we got a message.

实际上，这甚至不是几天前的事。

In fact, it wasn't even a couple of days ago.

就在昨天。

Was only yesterday.

期间发生了太多事情。

So much has happened in the interim.

新闻主播艾莉通过WhatsApp联系说，能否请你详细解释一下韦斯·斯特里茨向住院医生提出的这份提议？

Newscaster Ellie got in touch via WhatsApp saying, please, can you actually explain the offer that has been made by Wes Streets into the resident doctors?

艾莉表示她觉得周围有很多误导性信息。

Ellie says she feels like there's a lot of misleading information around there.

我会尽量解释清楚，不过确实有点复杂。

I will try and be clear on it, but it does get a bit convoluted.

没有新的主要薪酬方案——如你所知这是关键问题之一。

There's no new headline pay offer, and that's been one of the key issues as you know.

这部分并不包含在内。

That's not included.

医学生的考试费用和一些财务支出会有部分补贴，但新增内容主要是关于培训岗位的。

There's some money for exam fees and financial costs incurred by medical students, but the new bit is over these training places.

这意味着你可以成为一名刚获得资格的医生。

Now what that means is you can be a newly qualified doctor.

完成两年的基础培训后，如果你想进入麻醉、急诊医学或外科等专科领域的发展路径，就需要获得一个培训岗位，以便在未来几年逐步晋升，最终成为顾问医师。

You do your two foundation years, then you wanna get on a pathway towards a specialist area like anesthetics or emergency medicine or surgery, and you need a training place to then progress through the next few years and get to become a consultant.

英国医学会及其成员报告称，有些医生完成基础培训后却找不到工作。

And the BMA and their members have been reporting some doctors finishing the foundation years, they can't get a job.

他们无法获得培训岗位，只能临时工作或短期失业，英国医学会认为这种情况完全不可接受。

They can't get on a training place, and they're left having to locum or to be unemployed for a bit, which the BMA said was completely unacceptable.

因此，韦斯特雷廷在11月被拒绝的提议中表示：好吧。

So West treating in an offer that was turned down in November said, okay.

我将在未来几年内额外增加2000个培训岗位，比原计划的1000个有所提升。

I'll create 2,000 more places, training places over the next few years, up from a thousand originally planned.

这个提议被拒绝了。

That was rejected.

现在他表示将提供4000个培训名额。

Now he says it'll be 4,000 training places.

作为参考，今年总共有10000个名额，未来三年将增加4000个。

And just to give an indication, there were 10,000 in total this year, 4,000 more over three years.

他还表示将向议会提交立法，确保NHS雇主能优先考虑完成基础培训的英国医学生。

The other thing he's saying is I will go to parliament with legislation to ensure that employers, NHS employers, can give priority to UK medical students who've then gone into foundation years.

这是2019年签证规则变更后引发的主要争议之一——大量海外医生完全合法地申请这些培训职位，而部分医疗机构认为不能歧视外来申请者。

And this has been one of the big issues that because of visa rules changing 2019, you got a whole lot more doctors from outside The UK applying for these training places perfectly legitimately and some trusts feeling we can't discriminate against people who come from somewhere else.

因此斯特里廷的立法提案旨在解决这个问题？

So where streetings legislation is supposed to deal with that?

具体实施效果会非常值得关注。

Be very interesting to see how that plays out.

嗯。

Yeah.

另外还要看这些措施与一个关键因素——涨薪幅度的对比效果，我们很快就能见分晓。

And also if all of that, how that compares with one big number, which would be a pay rise, we shall see very soon.

杰米，关于流感问题，我想听听你的最终看法。

Jamie, I'm gonna give you the last word on flu.

毕竟你是一名流行病学顾问专家。

I mean, you're you're a consultant epidemiologist.

在新冠疫情期间，某种程度上我们都成了业余流行病学家。

During the COVID era, we were all amateur epidemiologists to some extent.

请分享一些值得关注的要点，帮助我们判断未来几周流感数据是应该引起更多还是更少担忧。

Give us some things to think about as we look at the flu numbers over the next few weeks that could help us to either be more concerned or less concerned.

给我们一些专业视角，你会关注哪些指标以及如何进行分析。

Give us an insight into that, what what you'll be looking at and how you'll be analyzing it.

首先需要明确的是，这与新冠疫情的情况截然不同。

I mean, think the first point is that it's a very different situation to COVID.

我们每年流感季都会面对流感疫情。

I mean, we do see flu, every season.

今年更令人担忧的是，流感季初期病毒出现了轻微变异。

We've got more more of a concern this year because of the the slightly changed virus in the early season.

但我认为我们主要需要关注的是老年人群体中可能出现的变化，他们尤其容易受到流感更严重的影响。

But I think the main things that we're going to be looking out for is really those changes in the older adults in particular that that tend to be affected more by flu.

因此我们将密切关注流感检测阳性率，特别是住院率，以及这对英国国民医疗服务体系（NHS）造成的影响。

So we'll be keeping a close eye on, positivity rates among those tested for flu and, hospitalization rates in particular and how how that impacts on the NHS.

我们也会持续关注这些指标。

We will keep an eye out for them as well.

非常感谢您，英国卫生安全局的杰米·洛佩兹·伯纳尔博士。

Thank you very much, doctor Jamie Lopez Bernal from the UK Health Security Agency.

谢谢。

Thank you.

还有，休，也谢谢你。

And, Hugh, thanks to you too.

非常感谢，亚当。

Thanks very much, Adam.

总是很愉快。

Always a pleasure.

今天，我们有两则关于委内瑞拉的重大新闻。

And today, we've had two big news stories about Venezuela.

首先是委内瑞拉主要反对派领袖玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多周三晚间意外现身挪威领取诺贝尔和平奖。

The first is that the key opposition leader in Venezuela, Maria Carina Machado, made a surprise appearance in Norway to pick up the Nobel Peace Prize on Wednesday night.

与此同时，我们获悉美军一支精英部队在加勒比海域扣押了一艘油轮，美方声称该油轮非法运输委内瑞拉石油，这似乎标志着美国对委内瑞拉相关行动的进一步升级。

And simultaneously, we got news that an elite unit of the US military had seized an oil tanker in The Caribbean, which they claim was carrying illegal exports of Venezuelan oil, which seems like quite, an escalation of some of the stuff that The US has been doing in relation to Venezuela anyway.

因此我们决定将这两则新闻串联起来，邀请两位深谙此事的专家——刚从奥斯陆采访完玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多归来的BBC同事露西·霍金斯，在我们新闻演播室进行解读。

So we thought we would tie those two stories up together by two people who know them very well because here in the newscast studio, fresh from Oslo where she's interviewed Maria Carina Machado is my colleague from BBC News, Lucy Hawkins.

嗨，露西。

Hi, Lucy.

嗨，亚当。

Hi, Adam.

让我们欢迎瓦妮莎·布施·施利特，她是BBC在线的拉丁美洲版编辑。

And please welcome Vanessa Busch Schlitter, who is the Latin America editor for BBC Online.

欢迎来到新闻播报。

Welcome to Newscast.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好的。

Right.

我们这里有两类故事线。

We've got two kind of story strands here.

我们应该先处理哪个？

What should we do first?

诺贝尔奖还是油轮被扣押事件？

The Nobel Prize or this oil tanker being seized?

谁想先来？

Who wants to go first?

我认为应该先说诺贝尔奖，因为那件事先发生的。

I think the Nobel Prize because that's what came first.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

那么，露西，简单说说你过去几天的经历吧。

So, Lucy, just explain the last couple of days you've had.

我一直没合眼。

So I haven't slept.

我直接从机场赶过来的，亚当。

I've come straight here, Adam.

你会很高兴知道我刚从盖特威克机场做完新闻直播。

You'll be pleased to know to be on newscast from Gatwick Airport.

匆忙换了衣服就赶来了，因为我们在奥斯陆度过了像过山车般刺激的几天。

Quick change of clothes, and here I am because we had just a roller coaster couple of days in Oslo.

BBC被承诺将获得这次独家专访，这是诺贝尔和平奖得主的首次国际采访。

The BBC were promised this exclusive interview, the first international interview with the Nobel Peace Laureate.

然后早上当摄像机就位时，我们一切准备就绪。

And then in the morning, when the cameras were ready, we were good to go.

我们突然从诺贝尔委员会那里听说，她不仅不在奥斯陆，他们甚至不知道她在哪里。

We all of a sudden heard from the Nobel Committee that not only was she not in Oslo, they didn't know where she was.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

所以大家非常担心。

So huge amount of concern.

所有人都在谈论这件事。

Everyone was talking about it.

她可能在哪里呢？

Where could she possibly be?

发生了什么？

What's going on?

而且她的女儿将代表她接受和平奖，并宣读她撰写的演讲稿。

And that her daughter was going to accept the Peace Prize on her behalf and also deliver the speech that she had written.

所以我们一直架着摄像机，你知道的，我们抱着希望。

So we kept the cameras set up, you know, we were hoping.

然后我在她的团队里有个联系人，她和我开始互发消息。

And then I have a contact in her team, and she and I started messaging.

她说，你知道的，我们认为这事会发生，但我们不能透露她在哪里、会发生什么或具体时间的任何细节。

And she said, you know, we think it's gonna happen, but we can't give you any details about where she is or what's gonna happen or what time this can happen.

所以直到午夜，我们才在奥斯陆的大酒店——所有和平奖得主都会来住的酒店——那个著名的阳台前被告知。

So it wasn't until midnight that we were then told at the hotel, the Grand Hotel in Oslo, this is where all the Peace Prize laureates come to and stay, that very famous balcony that they come to.

我当时其实坐在床上

I was actually sitting on the bed

对。

Right.

在阳台上等着她到来拍照，你知道的。

Balcony waiting for her to arrive taking photos, you know.

而且，实际上那是某人的酒店房间。

Also, it actually someone's it's actually a hotel room.

实际上这是一个

It is actually a

酒店房间。

hotel room.

它并不像某种特别的

It's not like some special like

但它确实相当特别。

But it is quite special.

墙上挂着历届获奖者的照片，门外标着'诺贝尔套房'，而且到处都有保安。

None of these pictures of the laureates from, you know, years gone by on the wall, and it says Nobel Suite on the door outside, and there were security guards everywhere.

你知道，那里确实有种特别的氛围。

And, you know, it had that air of something special.

而且当时正在举办一场盛大的宴会。

And also, big banquet was happening.

所以能看到穿着晚礼服的人们四处走动，谈论着委内瑞拉政治。

So there were people in evening gowns swanning around talking about Venezuelan politics.

总之，我们被告知还是无法确认她是否已经到达。

Anyway, we were told, no, we still can't confirm whether or not she's arrived.

我说，我刚和一个看到她的保安交谈过。

And I said, look, I've just spoken to a security guard who saw her.

我们知道她在这里。

We know she's here.

她在这里。

She's here.

是的。

Yeah.

这事要成了。

It's gonna happen.

所以我们只能继续等待。

So we had to keep on waiting.

然后，你知道的，有人敲门，她就来了。

And then, you know, we got there was a knock on the door, and and she came.

这太不可思议了，因为她真的出现了。

And it was incredible because there she was.

我们一直在等待，他们关上了阳台的百叶窗。

And we'd been waiting, and they'd shut the blinds to the to the balcony.

安全风险。

Security risk.

她不会出去的。

She's not gonna go out.

但外面，凌晨两点，还有数百人在等着见她。

But outside, and it was two in the morning, were hundreds of people waiting to see her.

他们整晚都带着旗帜和蜡烛，喊着口号唱着歌。

And they'd been there in the evening with, you know, flags and candles and chanting and singing.

他们想见到她。

And they wanted to see her.

当然，她做的第一件事就是和我握手，说想出去和大家打招呼。

And of course, the first thing she did is shake my hand and say, wanna go out and greet everyone.

她确实这么做了。

That's what she did.

哦，对。

Oh, right.

于是她随后便冲进了人群。

So she then went and plunged into the crowd.

她冲到阳台上，站在那里挥手致意，然后回来说，我现在不打算接受采访了。

That she plunged onto the balcony, stood there and waved, and then came back and said, I'm not gonna do the interview now.

我要下去见见大家。

I'm gonna go down and and see people.

对。

Right.

于是她就下去了。

So down she went.

与此同时，我正在BBC新闻频道做直播，特别喜欢这个镜头——摄像机和人群都向上看，你能看到我在阳台上，而她就在下面。

Meanwhile, I'm doing lives on the BBC News Channel with which I love this one particular shot where the cameras and the crowd were looking up and you could see me in the balcony And doing my she was down below.

我认为对她来说，这是一个已经躲藏了十六个月的女人。

And I think for her, this is a woman who has been in hiding for sixteen months.

她对我说，我已经很久没有接触过人群了。

And she said to me, I haven't touched people.

我已经很久没有拥抱过他人了。

I haven't hugged people.

而现在她的母亲就在那里。

And now her mom is there.

她的孩子们也在那里。

Her kids are there.

她终于可以依偎在他们身边，触摸他们。

She's able to kind of snuggle into them and touch them.

人群中不仅有她的朋友，还有所有支持她的人，那些她认识的人。

And then in the crowd were not only her friends, but all of these supporters, people that she knew.

所以看着她融入人群的场景确实非常感人。

So it was really moving to watch her in the crowd.

然后她走上楼梯，准备接受采访。

And then she came back up the stairs ready to do the interview.

我必须说，那一刻我在想，我要不要跟她一起过去？

And I have to say this was a moment where I thought, do I go there with her?

因为她坐下时，我发现她半边脸上起了疹子，妆容也脱落了。

Because as she sat down, I realized that the whole side of her face had a rash on it and her makeup had come off.

妆容脱落是因为她确实拥抱了太多人。

And it had come off because she had literally been hugging so many people.

没错。

Right.

她脸上起了疹子。

She'd got a rash on her face.

于是我对她说，你介意我们帮你补下妆吗？

And so I said to her, would you mind if we did something about your makeup?

她说，呃，我其实没带化妆品。

And she said, well, I don't really have any.

我说，我有。

And I said, I do.

对。

Right.

于是我就跪在这位诺贝尔和平奖得主面前，拿着化妆刷为她补妆。

So there I am kneeling on the ground in front of the Nobel Peace Prize laureate with my makeup brushes, doing her makeup.

对。

Right.

然后你们深入交谈，你问的问题之一正是关于她非凡的旅程。

And then you dive into the conversation, and one of the questions you asked was just about her extraordinary journey Yes.

前往挪威的旅程，我们现在可以听到一些片段。

To Norway, and we can hear a bit of that now.

仅仅因为发布关于诺贝尔奖的新闻，你就会入狱。

Just for posting news about the Nobel Prize, you will get imprisoned.

如果他们来抓你却没在你家找到人，就会带走你的家人，连孩子也会被关进监狱。

And if they go looking for you and they don't find you in your house, they will take your family, even children, in prison.

他们曾宣称我是恐怖分子，说我必须终身监禁，现在还在通缉我。

So they had said that I'm a terrorist, that I have to be you know, in jail for the rest of my life and they're looking for me.

因此，在当前形势下离开委内瑞拉无疑极其危险。

So certainly, leaving Venezuela today in these circumstances is very, very dangerous.

今天我想说的是，我能站在奥斯陆这里，是因为有许多男男女女冒着生命危险帮助我抵达。

So I just want to say today that I'm here because many men and women risked their lives in order for me to arrive in Oslo.

我代表他们以及数百万无名的委内瑞拉英雄来领取这个奖项，并将它带回去——因为这本就属于他们。

And I came here on behalf of them and the millions of anonymous Venezuelan heroes to receive the prize and to take it back to them because it's theirs.

瓦妮莎，对于那些不了解马查多背景故事的观众，请解释下她为何面临如此严重的威胁。

And, Vanessa, for people who don't know the Machado back story as well as you two do, just explain why she's under such a level of threat.

她受到威胁是因为她一直是最直言不讳批评委内瑞拉总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗及其前任乌戈·查韦斯的人，后者正是马杜罗的政治导师。

She's under threat because she has been one of the most outspoken critics of the Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, and the man who was in power before him, Ugo Chavez, who was the mentor of Nicolas Maduro.

她做了一件非凡的事。

And she did an extraordinary thing.

她成功团结了长期分裂的委内瑞拉反对派力量。

She managed to unite the divided opposition of Venezuela.

委内瑞拉的反对派数十年来一直因内斗、竞争、嫉妒和相互攻讦而四分五裂，而她决定在上次总统选举前举行初选。

The opposition in Venezuela for decades has been riven by infighting, by rivalries, by envy, and briefing against each other, and she decided to hold a primary ahead of the last presidential election.

她走遍了最偏远的村庄，在燃料短缺的时期走遍了委内瑞拉的每个角落。

And she went through the tiniest of villages, traveled the length and breadth of Venezuela at a time when there was, of course, a shortage of fuel.

因此前往这些村庄并非易事。

So it was not easy to go to these villages.

她握了无数双手，拥抱了无数民众，并收到了无数串念珠——正如她在采访中提到的，人们将念珠交给她作为希望的象征，也表达了对她的敬仰。

And she shook so many hands and hugged so many people and was given so many rosaries because that is one of the things that she alluded to in your interview, that people hand them hand her their rosaries as a symbol of hope and also of their admiration for her.

当初选举行时，她获得了93%的支持率。

And when that primary was held, she got 93%.

这意味着参加初选的民众中有93%支持她成为总统候选人。

So 93% of the people who turned out for this primary backed her as the presidential candidate.

结果是她随后被马杜罗政府控制的当局禁止参选，于是她转而支持埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯。

The result was that she was then barred from running by the authorities, which are controlled by the Maduro government, and she then backed Edmundo Gonzalez.

反对派清楚马杜罗政府极有可能试图操纵这次选举。

The election the opposition knew that there was a high chance that the Maduro government would try and rig the election.

但在玛丽亚·科里纳·马查多真正投身政治之前，她曾领导一个名为'Sumate'的民间社会团体，意为'加入我'或'加入我们'。

But Maria Corina Machado, before she really delved into politics, had a group, a civil society group called Sumate, which means join me or join us.

那是一个选举监督组织

And that was an election monitoring group

嗯。

Mhmm.

也是一个支持民主的团体。

And a pro democracy group.

凭借这方面的经验，她曾组织民众在各个投票站担任选举观察员。

And so her knowledge from that, she used to get people to be election observers at all the polling stations.

委内瑞拉的选举采用电子系统进行。

Elections in Venezuela are done with an electronic system.

所以你只需按下按钮

So you press a button

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后会打印出一张收据。

And then there's a receipt printed out.

因此选举观察员们收集了这些收据的副本。

So the election observers collected copies of those receipts.

所以在选举后，当马杜罗主导的选举委员会宣布他获胜时，她和她的团队及支持者能够提供投票统计结果

So when after the election, the Maduro dominated electoral council declared him the winner, she and her group and her supporters were able to to provide the voting tallies

是的。

Yeah.

根据那些投票统计结果显示——他们掌握了80%投票站的统计资料——那些数据，你知道，数量非常庞大。

Showing that according to those voting tallies, and they had voting tallies from 80% of all the polling stations, that voting tally, you know, it was I mean, it was so many of them.

这些数据显示埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯以66%的得票率获胜，而这些投票记录现在安全地存放在巴拿马的一家银行里。

Those showed that Edmundo Gonzalez had won with 66%, and those voting tallies are now safely kept in a bank in Panama.

那她现在有什么行动计划吗？

And so does she have a plan for what to do now?

嗯，我问她的其中一个问题是，她被马杜罗政府列为逃犯，他们声称要逮捕她。

Well, one of the questions that I asked her is that she's branded a fugitive by the Maduro government, and they say they'll arrest her.

她非常担心一旦回到委内瑞拉就会被迫失踪，这是马杜罗政府对待反对派或批评者的惯用手段。

She is definitely concerned that when she is in Venezuela that she will be disappeared, which is what happens to opponents of the Maduro government or critics of the government.

但她说她还是要回去。

But she said she's gonna go back.

亚当，我们提到过她是如何逃出来的。

That, you know, Adam, we mentioned how she got out.

据推测，她当时不得不戴着假发伪装，穿越了10个军事检查站。

I mean, the speculation is that she had to pass through 10 military checkpoints wearing a wig and a disguise.

她乘渔船到库拉索，再转私人飞机去挪威。

She got a fishing boat to Curacao, private jet to Norway.

她不愿证实这些细节。

She wouldn't confirm any of that.

但整个过程精心策划且危机四伏。

But this is elaborate and dangerous stuff.

想要再回去同样会非常困难。

Getting back in is gonna be really hard as well.