62. 如何摆脱戏剧三角困境？

结果发现，我所做的一切都完全错了。

Turns out that everything I've been doing is totally wrong.

我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。

I'm Angela Duckworth.

我是史蒂文·杜布纳。

I'm Steven Dubner.

你正在收听《无愚蠢问题》。

And you're listening to No Stupid Questions.

今天在节目中，你如何摆脱戏剧三角的破坏性诱惑？

Today on the show, how do you escape the destructive allure of a drama triangle?

避免以下行为：责备、批评、指责、说教、训斥、监控、威胁、宣讲、沉迷、过度反应或反应不足。

Refrain from the following, blaming, criticizing, accusing, lecturing, scolding, monitoring, threatening, preaching, obsessing, overreacting, or underreacting.

此外，奖励真的能提升表现吗？

Also, do awards actually improve performance?

我感到被欣赏。

I feel appreciated.

我不知道亚军是谁，但很遗憾，你倒霉了。

I don't know who the runner-up is, but, you know, too bad for you.

安吉拉，

Angela,

我最近了解到一个叫作‘戏剧三角’的东西，也叫卡普曼三角，因为它是心理学家史蒂文·卡普曼提出的。

I recently came across something called the drama triangle, also known as the Karpman Triangle, since it was created by the psychiatrist Steven Karpman.

你能解释一下卡普曼三角是什么，以及为什么了解它很重要吗？

Can you explain the Karpman Triangle and why it's worth knowing about?

我更喜欢称之为‘戏剧三角’，因为它确实充满戏剧性。

I find it more useful to refer to as the drama triangle because it is dramatic.

而我之所以知道这个，斯蒂文，是因为……

And this is how I know about it, Steven.

这并不是因为我是个心理学家，而是因为我经营着一家名为‘品格实验室’的小型非营利组织，你知道的。

It's not because I'm a psychologist, but because I run a little nonprofit called Character Lab, as you know.

当我还是个新手领导者时，即使在一个小团队里，我也遇到过这种现象：有一个人不喜欢另一个人。

And when I was a green leader, I, even in a small team, had this phenomenon where one person would not like another person.

那你怎么构成一个三角形呢？

And then how do you make a triangle?

第三个点是谁？

Who's the third point?

第三个点就是我。

The third point was me.

于是，第一个不满的员工会来找我，说：嘿。

So disgruntled employee number one would come to me and say, hey.

我真的不喜欢第二个员工。

I don't really like employee number two.

然后我会说一些我觉得能安慰第一个不满员工的话。

Then I would say something that I thought was comforting to disgruntled employee number one.

但几个小时后，第二个员工也会气冲冲地来找你，抱怨第一个员工。

But then employee number two, an hour later, comes into your office annoyed about employee number one.

这种情况会不断循环，情绪也会不断升级。

This can go around and around, and emotions heighten.

直到我咨询了一位管理教练，我才了解到‘戏剧三角’这个术语。

I didn't know this term drama triangle until I consulted a management coach.

你意识到自己正处在其中。

And you realized that you were in the middle of one.

是的。

Yeah.

于是我打电话给一位名叫达斯汀·彼得森的领导力教练，他说：哦，典型的戏剧三角。

Well, I call up this leadership coach named Dustin Peterson, and he says, oh, classic drama triangle.

他画了一个小图示。

He had a little drawing.

他说：你看。

Was like, look.

这是你。

Here's you.

这是员工一号。

Here's employee number one.

这是员工二。

Here's employee number two.

你永远看不到三个人同时交谈，更别提任何解决了。

And what you never get is all three people talking at the same time, and you certainly never get any resolution.

我也注意到，这三个点分别对应特定的角色，通常被称为迫害者、拯救者和受害者。

I also see that the three points are assigned to particular roles, which are usually called the persecutor, the rescuer, and the victim.

好的。

Alright.

我们先从第一个角色——受害者开始。

Let's start with the first person who is the victim.

受害者正被第二个人——他们的迫害者所困扰。

The victim is being annoyed by the second person who is their persecutor.

所以，假设你是受害者，史蒂文。

So let's say that you're the victim, Steven.

总是如此。

Always.

总是受害者。

Always the victim.

还有别人，我就说叫丽贝卡吧，丽贝卡在迫害你。

And somebody else, I'll just say Rebecca, Rebecca is persecuting you.

丽贝卡在烦你，打断你的谈话，忽略你的邮件。

Rebecca is annoying you, cutting you off in conversation, ignoring your emails.

你是受害者。

You're the victim.

她是迫害者。

She's a persecutor.

我能说一句吗？你所说的每一件事都是百分之百真实的？

Can I just say for the record, everything you're saying is a 100% true?

终于能公开说出来了，我很高兴。

I'm glad it's finally coming out on the air.

因为你知道，她总是一副高高在上的样子，搞什么事实核查，比如史蒂文说错了什么。

Because, you know, she's got this whole holier than thou fact checking thing going on where, like, Steven said this wrong.

史蒂文说错了。

Steven said that wrong.

是的。

Yes.

所以

So

现在你需要第三个人，那就是我，因为作为受害者的你，会向被赋予拯救者角色的人倾诉。

now you need a third person, and that's me because you, who are the victim, get to complain to someone who gets put in the role of the rescuer.

所以受害者会跑向拯救者，抱怨迫害者。

So victim runs to the rescuer and starts complaining about the persecutor.

通常情况下，我只是安慰你，同意你的说法，助长你的愤慨情绪。

What typically happens is I just kind of comfort you and just agree with you, and I stoke your flames of indignation.

但另一天，也许丽贝卡才是受害者，而你才是指控者。

Another day, though, maybe Rebecca's the victim, and you're the prosecutor.

角色是可以互换的。

Roles can switch around.

但我认为戏剧三角形的核心在于，总有一个受害者。

But I think the whole point of Drama Triangles is there's always a victim.

总有一个迫害者，这就催生了救援者的必要性，因为受害者在寻求安慰，他们不想去和迫害者交谈。

There's always a prosecutor, and that creates the need for a rescuer because the victim is looking for comfort, and they don't wanna go and talk to the prosecutor.

因为，为什么他们会这么做呢？

Because, like, why would they do that?

他们对那个人感到不满，所以会去找第三个人来安慰自己。

They're annoyed at the person, so they seek out a third person to comfort them.

于是这个循环不断延续，因为冲突的根源或误解从未得到解决，因为迫害者和受害者从未真正交流过。

And then the cycle just perpetuates because the conflict, the source of the disagreement, or the miscommunication is never resolved because the persecutor and the victim never really actually talk.

所以有趣的是，戏剧三角形这个名称是由精神病学家史蒂文·卡特曼在二十世纪六十年代提出的，我之前提到过。

So it's interesting the Drama Triangle name was coined by the psychiatrist Steven Cartman, I mentioned back in the nineteen sixties.

但事实上，他除了是精神病学家之外，还对表演感兴趣，并且是美国演员工会的成员。

But it turns out that he, in addition to being a psychiatrist, also was interested in acting and was a member of the Screen Actors Guild.

他之所以选择‘戏剧三角形’而不是‘冲突三角形’，部分原因是他喜欢用戏剧性的结局来思考冲突。

And and he apparently chose the phrase drama triangle versus conflict triangle in part because he liked the idea of using a dramatic reckoning to think about conflict.

但如果你仔细想想，几乎每一个童话故事、每一部迪士尼电影，也许甚至是每一部电影，都存在这种三角关系。

But also, if you think about it, just about every fairy tale, just about every Disney movie ever, maybe just about every movie ever, this triangle exists there.

事实上，他关于这一理论的首篇发表论文是一篇名为《童话与剧本戏剧分析》的文章。

In fact, his first published paper on this theory was an article called Fairy Tales and Script Drama Analysis.

所以，这或许是在将这些经典故事的情节和运作机制投射到我们每个人身上。

So it's maybe putting the plot and the machinations of these classic stories onto the rest of us.

但当我读到这一点时，我立刻想到：这种行为是后天习得的，还是人们天生就倾向于扮演这些角色呢？

But then the moment I read about that, I thought, oh, is this kind of behavior learned behavior, or do people have innate tendencies toward these roles?

如果这些行为是习得的，那么我们是否因为看了太多电影、读了太多童话或纯粹阅读小说，而更容易陷入戏剧三角关系中？

And if these behaviors are learned, then do we maybe all become a little more prone to getting caught in drama triangles if we watch a lot of movies or read fairy tales or just read fiction, period?

我不认为我们大脑里有‘戏剧三角神经元’，也不认为存在某种基因多态性能解释戏剧三角的成因。

I don't think we have drama triangle neurons or that there is a polymorphism that genetically explains drama triangles.

我甚至觉得，我们不需要看《灰姑娘》或任何有受害者、迫害者和拯救者角色的童话，就能推断出这些动态关系的存在。

I also don't even know that we need to watch Cinderella or some fairy tale where there's a victim and a persecutor and a rescuer to start to infer that there could be these dynamics.

我们不需要太多教导，就能让以下这种情景自然而然地发生并展开，几乎不可避免。

We don't need a lot of tutoring to have the following scenario just happen and unfold in a kind of almost inevitable way.

你有个同事，你们在开会，你提出了方案A。

So you've got a colleague, and you're in a meeting, and you suggest option a.

他们激烈地反对，拍着桌子坚持方案B。

They argue stridently spitting on the table for option b.

我想这在新冠期间可不是什么好行为。

I guess that would be not a great COVID behavior.

但不管怎样，他们气得火冒三丈。

But, anyway, they're spitting mad.

你离开会议后，心里只想：真是个混蛋。

And you leave the meeting, and you just think, what an a hole.

我简直不敢相信他们竟这样对我说话。

I can't believe they talk to me like that.

那么，这些负面情绪你该怎么处理呢？

Now where do you go with all that negative emotion?

你其实可以拿出日记本，开始做一些情感表达写作。

You could actually whip out your diary and start doing some expressive writing.

你可以等到周四的治疗预约再倾诉。

You could wait till your therapy session on Thursday.

你可以和你的配偶谈谈。

You could talk to your spouse.

我认为经常发生的情况是，你会带着这种情绪去参加公司里其他人的下一次会议，并抱怨这件事。

I think what often happens is you go into your next meeting with somebody else in your company, and you complain about this episode.

人们会自发地做什么呢？

And what do people spontaneously do?

他们会说：天哪。

They're like, oh my god.

他真的这么说吗？

Did he say that?

下一个人就成了你的救星。

The next person becomes your rescuer.

所以你刚刚把一个中立的人变成了救星。

So you've just turned someone neutral into a rescuer.

是的

Yeah.

而且，这种情况经常发生。

And, actually, that happens a lot.

但这既不是一种遗传行为，也不是一种习得行为。

But this neither has to be a genetic behavior nor learned behavior.

这只是社交动态中的一种现象。

It's just something that happens in social dynamics.

只要两个人中，一个人对另一个人感到生气，但他们却没有动力去公开争论。

Anytime you have two people, one's pissed at the other, but they don't have an incentive to have an open argument about it.

比如，你不会回到检察官办公室说：你知道吗？

Like, you don't go back into the prosecutor's office and say, you know what?

我想谈谈那次会面，我想谈谈你使用的语言。

I wanna talk about that meeting, and I wanna talk about the language you used.

相比之下，去找第三个人寻求同情要容易得多。

It's just so much easier to go and ask a third person to sympathize with you.

我有个小的程序性问题想问你。

I have a small procedural question to ask you.

你说这很可能既不是遗传行为，也不是习得行为。

You said it's quite possible that this is neither a genetic nor learned behavior.

那么，你该怎么称呼这种行为呢？

So what do you call something like that?

我的心理学同事会希望我把每种行为都称为既是遗传的又是习得的，因为心理学至今还没有发现任何一种行为——比如祈祷、在会议中打断别人，无论是什么行为——不是在某种程度上同时受到基因和经验的影响。

My colleagues in psychology would want me to call every behavior both a genetic and learned behavior insofar as psychology has yet to identify a behavior, you know, praying, interrupting people in meetings, whatever it is that is not both influenced in some way by your genes and also by your experience.

所以他们宁愿我不区分完全遗传或完全习得的行为，而是设置一个庞大的类别，涵盖两者。

So they would rather me not have anything in the completely genetic or the completely learned, and they would actually just have this huge fat column that encompasses both.

但至少还存在第三种可能性，那就是环境因素，或者经济学家所说的激励机制。

Well, there's at least a third option, though, which is environmental or what economists might call incentives.

对吧？

Right?

如果你所处的环境中的激励机制促使你成为这三种角色之一，那么你很可能最终就会成为其中一员。

If you're in an environment in which the incentives push you toward becoming one of these three roles, then it's quite possible that you'll end up there.

是吗？

Yeah?

是的。

Yes.

我确信，如果有人进行双生子研究，即使在存在制造戏剧性三角关系激励或不存在这种激励的环境中，也可能会存在某种遗传倾向，使人更容易或更不容易受到这些激励的影响。

And I'm sure that if somebody did a twin study, even in an environment where there were the incentives to have drama triangles or the incentives not to have drama triangles, there would be probably some genetic disposition to be more influenced by those incentives or less influenced.

这就是为什么这个类别实际上涵盖了所有情况。

And that's why the column really is everything.

但我确实认为重点应该放在动态关系上。

But I do think the emphasis should be here on the dynamics.

当我去找我的教练讨论该如何应对这个问题时，他并不太关心这些个体。

And, you know, when I went to go talk to my coach about what to do about this, he didn't really want to know about these individuals.

他的模式识别告诉他：这是我所经历过的每一个组织中都会出现的动态。

His pattern recognition said, this is a dynamic that happens in every organization I've ever worked in.

所以，当我阅读关于戏剧三角形的内容时，并没有太多想到工作环境。

So when I was reading about the Drama Triangle, I did not think that much about the work environment.

也许这是因为我现在独自工作。

And maybe that's because I work alone now.

你得一个人上演一场戏剧三角关系。

You'd have to have a Drama Triangle with just yourself.

但当我读到它的时候，我更多地想到了家庭。

But when I read about it, I definitely thought more about the family.

我相信在我的家庭系统中，如今作为成年人、作为父母、作为丈夫，我常常试图扮演，或者被鼓励、被诱惑、被激励去扮演拯救者的角色。

And I believe that in my family system, now I as an adult, as a parent, as a husband, that I often try to play or maybe am encouraged or enticed or incentivized to play the rescuer.

至少我不认为我经常扮演拯救者。

At least I don't think I'm the prescuer that much.

我肯定有时会，但我认为我并不擅长扮演拯救者。

I'm sure I am sometimes, but I think I'm not very good at being the rescuer.

你的拯救套路是什么？

What's your rescue shtick?

这些年来，我发展出了几种策略。

Over the years, I've evolved a few strategies.

一种方法是在发生冲突时最后一个发言。

One is to be the last person who speaks when there's a conflict.

让所有人都发泄完情绪，然后说，嗯，我们可以试试这个之类的，但这种方法似乎行不通。

Let everybody blow their steam and then say, well, you know, we could try this or so on, and that seems to fail.

如果我更早介入，通常会直接提建议，这反而会让别人更加生气。

If I try to intervene earlier, it's usually with a direct suggestion that pisses off someone even more than they already were.

我之所以觉得读到这些内容特别有趣，是因为我发现我一直以来的做法完全错了。

And the reason I found this so interesting reading about it is because it turns out that everything I've been doing is totally wrong.

我在这里引用的是谢丽·斯泰恩斯的文章《跳出戏剧三角》。

I'm reading here from a piece called Breaking Out of the Drama Triangle by Sherry Stines.

所以我在想，好吧。

So I'm thinking, okay.

这将会非常有帮助。

This is gonna be really helpful.

这会告诉我如何确切地避免陷入这个三角关系。

This is gonna tell me exactly how to not get trapped in this triangle.

有这么多步骤。

There are all these steps.

她写道：意识到你正在重复一种模式。

Realize that you are repeating a pattern, she writes.

好的。

Okay.

这说得通。

That make sense.

在任何情况下，都不要变得防御性。

Under any circumstance, do not become defensive.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

但第五步是：避免以下行为。

But then step five, refrain from the following.

指责、批评、控诉、说教、责骂、监视、威胁、布道、沉迷、过度反应或反应不足。

Blaming, criticizing, accusing, lecturing, scolding, monitoring, threatening, preaching, obsessing, overreacting, or underreacting.

所以不要过度反应。

So don't overreact.

也不要反应不足。

Don't underreact.

这就像走钢丝。

This is a tightrope.

耶稣能做到这一点，但大多数人会觉得这非常具有挑战性。

Jesus could do this, but most of us would find this very challenging.

相反，她写道，要专注于保持中立。

Instead, she writes, focus on being neutral.

所以，要从三角关系中抽身听起来真的很难。

So it sounds really hard to disentangle yourself from the triangle.

我不认为雪莉·斯廷斯的建议——当然不是冒犯雪莉·斯廷斯——对我有用。

I don't think that Sherry Stines' advice, no offense to Sherry Stines, is gonna work for me.

那你有没有一些不那么‘耶稣式’的建议？

So do you have some advice that's a little bit less Jesus y?

嗯，我觉得我只是会换种说法，因为说实话，这和我的领导教练给我的建议是一样的。

Well, I think I'm just gonna phrase it differently because I think it's the same advice, honestly, in a way that my leadership coach gave me.

所以达斯汀对我说，你真正需要做的，是让这些人彼此沟通。

So Dustin says to me, what you really need to do to break the triangle is to get these people to talk to each other.

你知道的，那个不满的员工一和不满的员工二。

You know, disgruntled employee number one and disgruntled employee number two.

这可能是他们最不想做的事。

That's probably the last thing they wanna do.

但如果他们一直来找你，一个就成了受害者，另一个就成了施压者。

But if they keep running to you, one becomes the victim, and another one's the person.

然后他们互换角色。

Now they switch roles.

除非有开放的对话，否则你永远无法摆脱这个三角关系。

You'll never get out of the triangle until there's an open conversation.

所以你确实需要保持中立。

So you do wanna be neutral.

你不应该站队，但我认为你需要促成一场对话，让冲突得以解决，而不是通过你来解决。

You don't wanna be taking sides, but I do think you need to bring about a conversation where the conflict is resolved but not through you.

这里有一个做得很好的例子。

Here's an example of somebody who did this well.

在我家，当这种情况发生时，我和我女儿，你知道的，阿曼达和我经常会爆发激烈的争吵。

So in my family, when this plays out, my daughter and I, as you know, Amanda and I can get into some pretty heated arguments.

很多时候，我们中的一个或两个都会转向我丈夫，试图让他站到我们这边，让我们感觉好受一点。

And very often, one or both of us turns to my husband, and we try to get him to team up with us and make us feel better.

他总是像瑞士一样中立。

And he is always like Switzerland.

所以我找错杜克沃思了。

So I'm talking to the wrong Duckworth.

我应该找杰森谈。

I should be talking to Jason.

是的。

Yeah.

他也会告诉你，当瑞士真的很糟糕。

He'll also tell you that it sucks being Switzerland.

戏剧三角关系之所以持续不断，原因之一是，如果杰森当时站在我这边，我会开心得多。

One of the reasons why the drama triangle goes on forever is that I would be so much happier with Jason in the moment if he just took my side.

当然。

Of course.

相反，他保持中立，但实际上他正在采取推荐的做法。

Instead, he's neutral, but he is actually doing what the recommended approach is.

顺便说一下，关于这些内容，我需要明确说明一下。

By the way, obvious disclaimer on all this stuff.

如果发生了真正需要报告的越界行为，显然你应该去找人谈谈。

If there's a transgression that is truly reportable, obviously, you should go talk to somebody.

但我想我们真正讨论的是那些只会让本已糟糕的关系变得更糟的抱怨和牢骚。

But I think what we're really talking about is the whining and complaining that can just make your sour relationships go even more sour.

那么，保持中立到底意味着什么？

So what does that mean to be neutral?

他除了什么也不做之外，还会做什么或说什么？

What does he do or say other than nothing?

我觉得很大一部分在于他不说什么。

I think a lot of it is what he doesn't say.

所以我会说，你不觉得我是对的吗？

So I'll say, like, don't you think I'm right?

然后他会说一些回避的话。

And then he'll say something deflective.

比如，嗯，我听到你说的是，你觉得你是对的。

Like, well, I hear that what you're saying is that you think that you're right.

他也会对她做同样的事。

And he'll do the same with her.

顺便说一下，我觉得我们都挺沮丧的。

I think we're both frustrated, by the way.

也许我们可以通过我们都对这个‘拯救者’感到恼火来结束这个戏剧三角，因为他是个糟糕的拯救者。

Maybe we could end the drama triangle by us both being annoyed at the rescuer for being such a terrible rescuer.

但我想告诉你一件事，史蒂文。

But I wanna tell you this, Steven.

我有一个想法，源自于戏剧三角形，我去和丹尼·卡尼曼讨论过。

I had this idea that came out of the Drama Triangle that I went to go talk to Danny Kahneman about.

我想，好吧。

And I thought, okay.

如果这种动态能自发地在这种有害的、无休止的负面戏剧三角中发生，那能不能把它反过来，创造一个持续美好、让人感觉越来越好的正面三角，比如一个积极心理学三角？

If this dynamic can spontaneously happen in this pernicious, never ending negative drama triangle, can you flip it on its head and create a perpetually awesome positive everybody feels better and better triangle, like a positive psychology triangle?

他只是直接拒绝了吗？

And did he just say no?

好吧，这是我的想法。

Well, here was my idea.

我对丹尼说：我有个很棒的主意。

I was like, Danny, I have this great idea.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?

下次当我有一个人际互动反应，觉得‘这真不错’的时候。

Next time I have an interpersonal reaction where I think, like, that was nice.

比如说，我看到你为别人买了一个火鸡奶酪三明治，我心里想，哇。

Like, say, I watch you buy a turkey and cheese sandwich for somebody, and I think, wow.

那是史蒂文·杜布纳。

That's Steven Dubner.

他真是个非常慷慨的人。

He's such a generous guy.

如果我买的是金枪鱼，而不是火鸡和奶酪，这还算慷慨吗？

Does it have to be turkey and cheese if I buy them tuna?

那还算慷慨吗？

Is that still generous or no?

金枪鱼非常两极分化。

Tuna is very polarizing.

哦。

Oh.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Of course.

我刚才在想什么？

What was I thinking?

每个人要么喜欢，要么讨厌。

Everyone's either loving or hating.

不想让国家更加分裂。

Don't wanna divide the country even further.

这就是为什么我不是个好的救援者。

That's why I'm a bad rescuer.

我有机会选火鸡和奶酪。

I had the opportunity to go turkey and cheese.

我选了金枪鱼。

I went tuna.

我搞砸了。

I blew it.

我们得从救生员基础入门开始教你。

We need to start you off with the remedial rescuer one zero one.

我们应该讨论的是熟食三角，而不是戏剧三角。

We should be talking about the deli meat triangle, not the drama triangle.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

我们这里的d用错了。

We've got the wrong d here.

好的。

Okay.

这是我的想法。

Here's my idea.

所以我看你很慷慨。

So I watch you being generous.

对吧？

Right?

火鸡和奶酪。

Turkey and cheese.

金枪鱼，你选你的三明治。

Tuna, you pick your sandwich.

然后，通常当我注意到某人真的很友善时，我可能什么也不说。

And then usually what happens when I notice that somebody is really nice is I probably say nothing.

我只是继续过我的日子。

I just go on about my day.

但如果我想建立一个积极的三角关系，我会去告诉第三个人。

But if I wanna create a positive triangle, I would go tell a third person.

我会冲进丽贝卡的办公室，对她说：丽贝卡，史蒂文刚给一个完全陌生的人买了一个火鸡和奶酪三明治。

I would run into Rebecca's office, and I would say, Rebecca, Steven just bought this total stranger a turkey and cheese sandwich.

我知道本可以是金枪鱼三明治，但我还是要说，那真是太棒了。

I know it could have been tuna, but I'm still saying that was amazing.

现在Rebecca可能会去找你，说：我听说你其实非常慷慨。

Now Rebecca might go to you and say, I heard that you actually were really generous.

顺便说一下，是Angela告诉我的，而Danny说这根本行不通。

And by the way, it was Angela who mentioned it to me, and Danny said it'll never work.

为什么呢？

Because why?

他认为，当我冲进Rebecca的办公室告诉她你有多慷慨时，Rebecca不会觉得‘哇塞’。

He thought that when I ran into Rebecca's office and told her how generous you were, that Rebecca, instead of thinking like, wow.

太好了。

Yay.

反而会立刻觉得自己不如你。

Positive thoughts about would immediately feel inferior to you.

然后她会告诉你我过去做的所有那些糟糕的事。

And then she'd tell you all the terrible things I've done in the past.

但也许你在重新构建戏剧三角关系时太过雄心勃勃了。

But maybe you're just being a little too ambitious in your reconfiguration of the drama triangle.

也许我们不应该试图用同等程度的正面行为来抵消负面行为，而应该直接追求无戏剧三角的状态。

Maybe rather than try to create positive to the same degree that there's negative, maybe we should just shoot for the no drama triangle.

比如，奥巴马总统以‘无 drama 奥巴马’为傲，每当出现冲突需要解决时——通常是重大的政策分歧——他都希望倾听各方意见，然后进行调解。

Like, president Obama prided himself on being no drama Obama in that whenever there was a conflict to work out, usually a real substantial policy conflict, he wanted to hear the sides and then kinda mediate.

也许这就是顾问们所说的中立性：不被戏剧性所左右。

And maybe this is the sort of neutrality that the advisers talk about of just not giving in to the drama.

因为，再次强调，我认为即使像我这样并不喜欢戏剧的人，也会觉得戏剧本身有着非凡的吸引力。

Because, again, I think that even people like I who don't feel like I love drama, I think there is something extraordinarily enticing about drama, period.

那种肥皂剧般的特质。

The sort of soap opera nature.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Exactly.

我不惊讶于我们许多人，如果不是几乎所有人，在某种程度上都会以微妙或潜意识的方式鼓励这种行为，甚至让自己卷入某种三角关系。

And I would not be surprised if many of us, if not nearly all of us, to some degree, encourage it even if in subtle or subconscious ways and even lead ourselves to join some kind of triangle.

还有一些人几乎是专业的救援者或英雄。

And then there are people who are almost professional rescuers or heroes.

是的。

Yes.

长期如此。

Chronically

救世主情结的整个概念。

The whole idea of the savior complex.

人们会逐渐意识到，如果你想要抱怨另一个人，这个人就是那个愿意倾听的 sympathetic ear。

The sympathetic ear that people probably start to know that that's the person to go to if you wanna complain about another person.

听我说，史蒂文，你说得对，但每当我注意到有人做了好事，我都会刻意去表达。

Look, Steven, I think you're right, but I have been going out of my way when I do notice that somebody does something nice.

我也努力在背后以积极的方式谈论他人。

And I do try to talk about people behind their back in positive ways.

所以我认为我们应该追求比瑞士更好的方式。

So I think we should aim for better than Switzerland.

但也许可以采取一种折中的做法。

Well but maybe something in between.

比如，如果你看到我给某人买了一个火鸡奶酪三明治，就不要去丽贝卡的办公室，或者像现在这样打电话给丽贝卡说，嘿。

Like, maybe if you do see me buy somebody a turkey and cheese sandwich, rather than going into Rebecca's office or in these days, calling resuming Rebecca and saying, hey.

史蒂文做了一件很棒的事。

Steven did a really nice thing.

也许我们一开始就可以直接说，嘿，丽贝卡。

Maybe we should just start out with, hey, Rebecca.

史蒂文今天没做什么糟糕的事。

Steven didn't do anything terrible today.

你更喜欢这种说法，而不是‘嘿，史蒂文’。

You like that better than, hey, Steven.

我真的很喜欢你给那位同事买了火鸡奶酪三明治。

I really like that you bought that sandwich kneading fellow, turkey and cheese sandwich.

但我会说，是的，丽贝卡本可以，但她没有。

But then I'm gonna say, yeah, Rebecca could have, but she didn't.

因为显然我是个戏剧女王，尽管我觉得自己不是。

Because I'm a drama queen, apparently, even though I think I'm not.

如果这确实从古至今一直存在——而我找不到任何理由认为它不是——那么你所说的意味着，戏剧三角形可能比其他一些替代方式更能体现这些自然的冲动。

And if indeed this has been going on since the beginning of time, which I find no reason to think that it hasn't been, then what you're saying is that the drama triangle is probably a better manifestation of these natural impulses than some of the alternatives.

比如，看看该隐和亚伯。

Like, look at Cain and Abel.

理论上，他们本可以去找爸爸妈妈说：‘嘿，他老是惹人烦，还不干活。’

Theoretically, they could have gone to mom and dad and say, man, he's being a pain in the neck, and he won't do his work.

但结果却是，砰，死了。

But instead, boom, dead.

等等。

Wait.

我觉得该隐其实等了。

I think Cain did wait.

哪个是坏的？

Which is the bad one?

该是该隐。

Cain.

好吧。

Okay.

或者亚伯。

Or Abel.

你有五成几率

You've got a fifty

五成对五成。

fifty to that.

该隐听起来很坏。

Cain sounds bad.

你知道我究竟是怎么记住这件事的吗？

You know how I remember this honestly?

这是来自布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的歌曲《亚当生了该隐》。

It's from the the Bruce Springsteen song, Adam Raised a Cain.

所以我相当确定该隐是坏人。

So I'm pretty sure Cain was the bad guy.

我们就假设该隐是坏人吧。

Let's assume that Cain was the bad guy.

对吧？

Right?

所以我想这是亚伯在向他爸爸抱怨。

So I guess this would be Abel complaining to his dad.

对吧？

Right?

你是说真的发生过这件事？

You're saying that did happen?

我觉得是的。

I think it does.

这听起来像是需要丽贝卡来核实一下。

This sounds like something for Rebecca to fact check.

但话说回来，比起制造三角关系，还有更糟糕的事情。

But that said, the fact remains that there are worse things than to create a drama triangle.

是的。

Yes.

比如杀了你的兄弟。

Killing your brother, for example.

在我们现代的版本中，丽贝卡不会因为我给别人买了一个火鸡三明治就杀了我，这是一件好事。

And in our modern version, the fact that Rebecca wouldn't kill me because I bought a turkey sandwich for somebody is a good thing.

如果最坏的情况只是她因为嫉妒我是个好人而说我的坏话，你知道吗？

And that if the worst that happens is that she talks about me badly because she's jealous about what a nice guy I am, you know what?

我能接受这个，安吉拉。

I'm gonna live with that, Angela.

接下来继续收看《别问蠢问题》。

Still to come on no stupid questions.

史蒂文和安吉拉讨论奖励和奖品是否会影响动机。

Steven and Angela discuss whether bribes and prizes influence motivation.

如果你骑上这辆自行车，骑到

If you get on this bike and pedal it to

街的尽头，我就给你两包西瓜味的泡泡糖。

the end of the street, I will give you two packs of watermelon Bubblicious Bubble Gum.

史蒂文，我在想关于奖励的事。

Steven, I'm wondering about awards.

你是要给我一个奖励吗？

Are you about to give me one?

好吧，我先问你一个关于奖励的问题，这几乎和奖励一样棒。

Well, I'm gonna give you a question about awards, which is almost as good.

不。

No.

才不是呢。

It's not.

不是。

It's not.

好吧，这是我一直被问到的问题。

Well, here's the question I always get all the time.

安吉拉，你对我们这种奖杯文化怎么看？

Angela, what do you think about our trophy culture?

孩子们得到的奖项太多了。

Kids are getting too many awards.

我知道问这个问题的人通常希望我怎么说。

So and I know what the people who are asking me this question often want.

他们希望我告诉他们，不是每个人都应该得到奖杯。

They want me to tell them that not everyone should get a trophy.

这更广泛地引发了这样一个问题：奖项是好事吗？

And it has more broadly raised the question of, are awards good?

许多奖项本意是激励努力工作和优异表现，我想听听你的看法。

Many awards are supposed to motivate hard work and high performance, and I wonder what you think.

嗯，我很早就开始注意到这一点了，我想甚至在我有孩子之前就注意到了。

Well, I began to notice this many, many years ago, I think before I had kids even.

我以前称之为奖杯通货膨胀，因为看起来你不需要做太多就能得到一个奖杯。

And I used to call it trophy inflation because it seemed like you didn't have to do that much to get a trophy.

然后我记得读过斯蒂芬·法蒂斯的一篇文章。

And then I remember reading this article by Stefan Fatsis.

这是《Slate》上一篇关于奖杯通货膨胀概念的文章，他写道，对许多人来说，参与奖——也就是仅仅因为出场就获得奖杯——象征着美国的问题所在，比如坚韧和纪律的消失等等。

This was a piece in Slate about this notion of trophy inflation, and he wrote for many people, the participation trophy, just like getting a trophy for showing up, is a symbol of what's wrong with America, the disappearance of toughness, discipline, etcetera, etcetera.

但他后来发现了一个1922年的例子。

But then he found an example from 1922.

那是俄亥俄州的一场高中篮球锦标赛，这篇文章提到，获胜队伍的成员将获得个人奖杯。

This was an Ohio high school basketball tournament, and this article noted that members of the victorious outfits will be given individual trophies.

所以，如果你是获胜队伍的一员，每个人都会得到一个奖杯，而且参赛的每位运动员也会获得一个参与奖。

So everybody gets a trophy if you're on the winning team, but also a participation trophy will also be given each athlete playing in the series.

这可是整整一百年前的事了。

So that was literally a hundred years ago.

所以这并不是最近才出现的现象。

So it's not a recent phenomenon.

他引用的一个反对参与奖杯的例子是一位我恰好喜欢并了解的橄榄球运动员，因为他效力于匹兹堡钢人队，那是我的球队。

One of the examples he cited against the embrace of the participation trophy was a football player who I happen to like and know about because he was on the Pittsburgh Steelers, which was my team.

他写道，匹兹堡钢人队的线卫詹姆斯·哈里森在Instagram上宣布，他退回了孩子收到的几个参与奖杯，因此成了反对奖杯群体的名誉代言人。

He wrote then Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker James Harrison became the honorary spokesman for the anti trophy crowd when he wrote on Instagram that he returned a couple of participation trophies received by his kids.

这太棒了。

That's awesome.

我要说一点。

I will say this.

詹姆斯·哈里森以冷酷、强硬著称，但我也曾亲眼见过他善良的一面。

James Harrison was known as one of the unsmilingest, toughest football players to have existed, but I once saw personal evidence of his kindness.

我和我儿子都是匹兹堡钢人队的球迷。

So my son and I are Pittsburgh Steelers fans.

当儿子大约十岁或十一岁时，我们有一个家庭朋友，是我儿子的朋友，他父亲——也是我的朋友——突然去世了。

And when he was about 10 or 11 years old, we had a family friend, a friend of my son's whose dad, who was a friend of mine, died suddenly.

这个可怜的孩子也是钢人队的球迷。

And this poor kid was also a Steelers fan.

所以那年我们去匹兹堡看比赛时，我们问能不能带这位朋友一起去。

And so when we were going to Pittsburgh for a game that year, we asked if we could bring this friend along.

我有个朋友在钢人队工作，我就跟他说了这个情况。

And I had a friend who worked for the Steelers, and I told him about this circumstance.

他特意为我们安排了几样特别的待遇。

And he went out of his way to give us a couple special treats.

其中之一是我们得以进入钢人队赛前夜住宿的酒店，那里也是他们举行团队聚餐的地方。

And one of them was we got to go to the hotel where the Steelers stay the night before the game and where they have their big team meal.

当时在场的有钢人队球员、教练，还有我们三个人。

And so it was the Steelers and the Steelers coaches and the three of us.

球员们正吃着酒店自助餐提供的食物，这时詹姆斯·哈里森走了进来，他号称是足球史上脾气最暴躁的人，手里还拿着一盒披萨。

And the players are eating the food that they're supposed to eat from the hotel buffet, and in walks James Harrison, allegedly the meanest person in the history of football, holding a box of pizza.

显然，他是这么说的：我不想吃酒店的食物。

Apparently, he's like, I don't wanna eat the hotel food.